Amy, The Sassy Therapist, Having fun with Neuroscience

About Amy Stenger-Sullivan
About 20 years ago, I was introduced to the polybag theory and almost immediately it had a positive impact on my life. It has affected the way I do everything including parenting, working running a business and even caring for two of my siblings who have a significant mental illness.

Growing up as the youngest of 10 kids, I've been significantly impacted by the mental illnesses that were present in my family members. One of the ways we lived through that experience as a family was to tell stories and to laugh. These experiences have helped me build the skills to take complex information and make that information easy to understand while offering practical suggestions that are simple to use.
Others describe me as being easy to talk to, including laughter as well as depth in the conversation.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, guys, it's Pete for Beef Anxiety here. Welcome in
today's episode. I appreciate all being here so much. Let's
talk about a few things real quick. The pe for
so Anxiety Team anxiety Facebook group. Are you a part
of it?

Speaker 2 (00:12):
You're not?

Speaker 1 (00:12):
What are you waiting for?

Speaker 2 (00:13):
The leaks out here in.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
The description of below, or go to Facebook and search
pee for so Anxiety, then look for the team Anxiety
team page and joining today? Why not you can join
the help it'd be great. Like right now, are you
stop it doing process video?

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Go do around?

Speaker 1 (00:26):
But anyways, let's also talk about the p for so
anxiety YouTube page. You guys, if you're here right now,
you're probably following the most likely.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
If not, I don't.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
If there's subscribe, be sure I don't like in comment
on the videos and let me know because all that
stuff really helps.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Guys.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
I really appreciate it and help mean break the stigma.
The mental health is talked about enough. But anyways, guys,
let's get in today's episode. I'll be all have a
great one. Thank you so much again, and as always say,
don't ask your day is asking your mental health is today?

Speaker 3 (00:51):
He's welcome to the exciting episode Pete for Anxiety here
on the Oracle Talk Radio Network. My guest today is
a licensed professional clinical counselor, super advisor, speaker, author, and
leading expert in the clinical application of the poly volagage theory.
She's also the founder and seward and lead curator of
the Rooty Compassion Counseling, The One the Only Amy Sullivan.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
How you doing today, Amy Good?

Speaker 4 (01:13):
How are you? Pete Good?

Speaker 3 (01:14):
So, why don't you tell me a little bit more
about yourself? I mean, that's that's a lot. You're a speaker,
you're an author, you're yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:22):
Yeah. So, like you said, I'm a counselor.

Speaker 5 (01:25):
I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio, and I own a practice with
nine other therapists, and prior to becoming a therapist, I
actually was a licensed massage therapist for oh Okay and
it was there that I met the poly bagel theory.
So we can talk in a little bit about what
that is, but it really changed the direction of my

(01:49):
life and had a huge impact on me personally and
was pretty important in my change to becoming a mental
health therapists. All of our work is centered on the
poly bagel theory, so it's a theory that was created
by Stephen Porge's over the course of about the last

(02:10):
fifty years. And there is a social worker named dev
Dana who really translated his.

Speaker 4 (02:18):
Work into use for therapy. And I'm on her senior
training team.

Speaker 5 (02:23):
So we do trainings all over the world on this
theory and why it's important for mental health. And I've
written some things, including a chapter in a book about
the topic.

Speaker 4 (02:36):
And then I'm currently co authoring.

Speaker 5 (02:38):
A book we're writing, we're in the process of writing
on how do we use the poly bagel theory in
counseling for children?

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Oh, that's awesome.

Speaker 4 (02:47):
Yeah, he've been busy.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Oh clearly I can tell so from a sides. Therapist
A therapist is a very interesting jump.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
What made you though?

Speaker 3 (02:56):
I mean, like, I've always been fascinated by psychology ever
sinceing you we knew it. I've always been wondering how
the mind works. And then you hear all these stories.
And then I took a course in college and it
was one of my recuisitions I had to take, and
I watched this video and these like serial code guys.
You're watching how they're responding to the things that they've done.
They did not even know emotion and you're just sitting
there wondering, dude, what is this going on in these

(03:16):
guys' heads? So you know, but that's a massive change, though.

Speaker 5 (03:21):
Not really because of the kind of mental health therapy
we provide. It's very body mind connection oriented. So one
of the things that polyvangel theory teaches us is that
our mental health really starts in our body. So to
explain this, I typically ask people, how do you know

(03:44):
when you're afraid? So I ask you that, Pete, how
do you know when you're afraid?

Speaker 3 (03:49):
It's a that sense of feeling that you hear, your
post starts racing and things like that.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Basically, your body's telling you that something's wrong.

Speaker 5 (03:55):
Yes, So same thing with anger, same thing with happiness,
with sad. Any emotion that we have starts by sensations
in the body.

Speaker 4 (04:05):
And so our work is if we can pay attention
and by.

Speaker 5 (04:09):
The way it's navigated or really yeah, navigated by the
nervous system. So when we can help people pay attention
to those sensations that the nervous system is providing about
if they feel emotionally safe or not in the world,
that's for us where.

Speaker 4 (04:29):
Real change starts. To happen for people.

Speaker 5 (04:32):
To me, it's like getting really to the core of
what our mental health is, what's happening, because very often
what happens is we have a sensation, we really don't
know what it is or how to make sense of it.
And because as humans we're meaning making beings, we create
a story about the sensations we're feeling.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
So, oh, I'm not good enough, you know, or typically.

Speaker 5 (04:58):
It goes there's something with me or there's something wrong
with everybody else. And I talked to my clients about
if you find yourself in that story, that's just a story,
and you know, ninety nine percent of the time neither
one of those is right.

Speaker 4 (05:14):
Yeah, so let's back up from the story.

Speaker 5 (05:17):
Let's go back up and look at what happened to
make us uncomfortable and how do we deal with it
on that level?

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
So, I mean, it sounds like it's it's interesting too,
because I've never heard about it until now, and I'm
just like, oh my God, tell me more, like what
is this?

Speaker 2 (05:36):
You know, what was it about it that attracted you?

Speaker 6 (05:38):
Though?

Speaker 3 (05:38):
Because you said you were you were working as a
massage therapist, and then I would introduced you to it.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Basically.

Speaker 5 (05:44):
Yeah, So as a massage therapist, I started learning how
to teach infant massage to parents caregivers and that program
which is called Baby's First Massage, and it's still in existence.

Speaker 4 (05:58):
And they do training all over.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
They use.

Speaker 5 (06:03):
The Polybagel theory is the science behind attachment, because what
the Polybagel theory really tells us is how do we
feel emotionally safe in the world as we connect to
other people, as we connect to ourselves, how we feel
about the environment we're in. And it happens at the

(06:25):
brainstem level, which means we're having unconscious We use the
word neuroception.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
Unconscious nervous system.

Speaker 5 (06:34):
Reading and creating responses in our body to really the
simple question of do we feel emotionally safe or not.
When we don't feel emotionally safe, there's a whole patterning
of behaviors and feelings that we can slip into.

Speaker 4 (06:50):
And for people who have had chronic.

Speaker 5 (06:52):
Stress, attachment, wounds, traumas, if those things don't get processed
and managed, it sits there and continues to create anxiety,
to create trauma responses depression, even when the life circumstances
seem fine.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, and you know, I can actually say that I
can agree to that through because for me, I had
a lot of trauma I hadn't still dealing with in
the current situation is nothing like it. But I still
have that sense of anxiety, feeling, you know, of just
whatever it is, it just keeps kicking back in. But
it's not like that now, you know my life that
was great. I have a life understands things. She understands

(07:32):
a lot of things on her end, and she knows
I've been through things, and a lot of it showed
up early on in the dating when we start dating, though, like,
you know, the sense of trust, Like I had no
reason not to trust her. She's never give me reasons,
but my ax A cheated on me, so that trust
was really hard for me to give to someone, you know.
And then the fact that we lived so far apart.
We were like two and a half hours away giveing,
like one hundred and fifty miles away from each other

(07:52):
when we first started talking, and like the way she
responded is what reassured me that this is, you know,
this is all okay. Because in my head I'm freaking out.
She knows I'm freaking out, but she's so mellow about
the way she was handling it. It was just like
it reassured me, like, Okay, well I understand, you know,
this person's not doing these things, you know. And we

(08:13):
had an incident basically happened and something that triggered into
such the way she handled it was just.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Professionally, just really casual.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
Wasn't really they got upset it with me and didn't
get mad at me for getting upset about it, completely
understand And it reassured me though that hey, okay, this
person's not lying to me. I have no reason not
to trust this person.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
You though.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
That self doubt is there because you know, the fifteen
years of TROMA I dealt with with my ex being
you know, very narcissistic and all the kind of stuff
she used to do to me and things like that,
it just like just mess in my head. It's totally
different now, but it comes back, you know. And that's
what got me to talk. Got me in the therapy eventually,
was just like I just had enough. I was tired
of being a slave to this thing of whatever this

(08:50):
thought process was and the thoughts that go through my head.
And now I'm better equipped ever since doing the show.
I've learned more things from new people all the time
and do the therapy, you know, and stuff like that.
So I'm learning new techniques all the time and how.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
To how to counteract it.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
So like you know, my head starts trying to start
creating thoughts, I just start picking it apart, like yeah,
you know, this is kind of you know, yeah, that's
not what that is, you know, And that just keep
kind of canceling out the things where I'm trying to
make my brain's training invented, and anxiety is trying to say,
oh no, this is what's going on.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
Here's what they start freaking out, you know.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
And the worst one and the funny one for a
lot of people is is that text messages for me,
were so hard to understand it first, Like when you
text somebody, I would think, you know, there has to
be an instant response. So I had to teach myself, hey, listen, pee, listen,
when you send this message, this person is either not
going to respond right away or they might, so don't
panic because this is not an immediate thing. If you
needed to talk to them about saying that, you need

(09:41):
to call them on the phone and get a direct answer.
If not, you're sending this message like you would put
a Facebook post out there, you know, and just somebody
eventually respondsibly see it kind of thing, you know, And
it always like at first it seems silly to me,
but now it's it seems silly now because it's just
like geez dude, it's like it's a text message. Like
they've been around for so long. It's not like this
is something new you have. You know, Facebook all the way,

(10:02):
how to taketok, different ways of message people, you know.

Speaker 5 (10:04):
But it's not even the text message, right you said it.
It's the connection you're looking for. So what you just
described to me is when you met your wife and
the way she held your emotions and what was going
on for you allowed you to create a deep connection
with her. When we can create those deep doctor Porgus

(10:26):
refers to it as social engagement, when we can create
relationships that they don't have to all be the deepest thing. Yeah,
but typically when we find a relationship where we really
feel like we can settle in. It can be romantic marriage,
it can be friendship, you know, family relationships. It allows
our nervous system to ease and settle a little bit,

(10:50):
and then what can happen is you described this perfectly right.
So when we're stressed, tense, you know, dealing with trauma,
our thinking brain goes offline and it's why we can't
really access logical solutions all the time. And so when
we have connection, our thinking brain comes back online and

(11:13):
then you're able to say things like, hey, Pete, you're
really looking for connection.

Speaker 4 (11:19):
So if you don't want to.

Speaker 5 (11:20):
Wait by sending the text, call And I can't tell
you how much our voice, our tone of voice especially
plays into our feeling of being safer unsafe with another.

Speaker 4 (11:35):
So I always give the example of my kids.

Speaker 5 (11:38):
They're in their twenties now, but growing up they would
say like, you're yelling at me, and I would say, like,
my volume didn't rise.

Speaker 4 (11:47):
But what I learned with the polybago theory.

Speaker 5 (11:50):
Is it was my tone of voice, so they perceived
it is yelling. And so then I was like, oh,
that tone of voice that gets really firm, you know,
sometimes can feel threatening to them.

Speaker 4 (12:04):
So now we call it toning and how you're.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Toning at me?

Speaker 5 (12:07):
Right, But it's so I love the example you gave
of Yeah, I can text and I can wait for
a text, and probably a text from your wife you
would receive as warm and connecting. But sometimes we're texting
with people and the written word can be hard because
we don't always know the intention behind it. If we're

(12:29):
still dealing with the process stress or trauma. Very typically
our interpretation of that written word goes through the filter
of us not feeling safe, and then we can misinterpret
and that kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
So no, I agree to because I've had that moment too,
Like I get these weird messages and I just look out.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
I'm like, what is this speed?

Speaker 3 (12:49):
Like Okay, you're sitting there having this inner conflict or
they can't stand on this on the screen. You're freaking
out going look tells this board what? Because my dad's
like that too. He's not a big textor he's like
just call me. He's like, I don't have time to
these texts unless it's some like you don't really need
him right away kind of thing, just like set some quickness. Hey, listen,
you got a second call me or whatever that that
you know, that kind of thing like that.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
He's very generic when it comes.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
To that when you call and talk to him, he's
more of the on the phone guy kids for that
reason too. And I got that same problem with my
tone of voice. Like I am originally from Chicago when
I come down here, so I'm louder than most people
in Texas a lot of times. So a lot of
people take it as, oh, you're being you know, rude.
I'm like, no, it's not even that. I'm not even
yelling at you. You want to be yelled at. I could
show you what it's yelling like. You know what I mean.
That's all he's used to tell me all the time,

(13:29):
because it's just at the tone of voice, the way
your tone comes off, and it's something I work on
all the time.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Is because it's the it's the way you you say.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
Things or the tone that you use when you say it,
and it's just, you know, it's hard sometimes because I'm
very blunt when it comes to things for a lot
of people, and a lot of people are just not
ready for it. But after they get used to it
and just like, oh, that's just Peter. That's how he
does and that's how he talks, and you know all
those other things, and it's it's it's so much, it
makes so much sense.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Though I'm with you.

Speaker 5 (13:55):
They need those interactions with you. You know that you're
tone of voice is maybe more cultural in terms of
where you grew up, more of a city guy, you know.
I think to understand that that's cultural more so than
having the meaning behind it of being aggressive or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:16):
Yeah, I think that's exactly the best way to explain
it though, because it is the Other thing too, is
that I'm down here and it was I don't say
good morning to people. I say hello or something. And
it was a whole funny conversation even.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
That broke out.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
Even this guy and I came in because I work
in customer service right now as my job full time,
so I deal with people on a daily basis. So
this is one guy came in and said, I know
you're not from Texas. I'm like, I'm thinking, I know
I'm not from Texas, so you're right. He goes, you
know why, because you don't say good morning to people.
I'm like, I acknowledge you. You came in the room and
the kind of thing.

Speaker 5 (14:45):
You know.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
My boss is like laughing because she goes, yeah, this
because you don't have some other hospitality, honey, that's what
it is. And I just start laughing, like my son, Hello,
agreet you do you come in there?

Speaker 2 (14:54):
I made sure you know, I know you're in the store.
I'm polite to you all the way.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
But just because I didn't say good morning to you,
you're mad because I'm not, oh, good morning to you.
It's just not what I do, you know. And my
mom was the same way too. In high school. She
used to mess with me. She used to go good
morning and just keep saying it until I respond because
I'm half asleep, and I'm like, yeah, it's something I
used to I just don't.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Do that, you know.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
It's not that I don't I'm not pleasant to be there,
It's just I just don't.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
I'm just not a good morning person to people. You know.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
It's something I learned how to do because certain people
like it. So I try to, you know, try to
peace to them a little bit so I don't have
to listen to the good morning twenty thousand times until
I respond with the same thing.

Speaker 5 (15:29):
Right.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
So, But it's it's always interesting though, too, because I
think tonal voice is very big because that's how you can.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
Tell when something's wrong with a lot of people too.

Speaker 3 (15:38):
Sometimes they say things and it's a quick identifier for
me like, okay, well, sum's up, you know, or somebody's upset.
You can tell based on the sound of the voice,
like if it makes like a cracking noise. You're kind
of like all these different things that don't seem a
lot to other people that I tend to pick up
on really quick because I'm really good at reading a
lot of situations with people.

Speaker 5 (15:54):
Yeah, Like we develop those skills when we live through
trauma and when we live through extress, and doctor Porges says,
the tone of voice is the tattle tale of our
emotional state. So and you can just like you said,
I remember talking to a colleague once and.

Speaker 4 (16:15):
Her giving me really bad news, and.

Speaker 5 (16:17):
I was wanted to cry, but I didn't want to
cry in front of her, and so I found myself going, no,
it's okay, it's fine, I'll talk to you later, Okay,
Like my voice went really high in efforts to try
to avoid like really being in.

Speaker 4 (16:34):
My body, because what my.

Speaker 5 (16:37):
Body wanted to do was just express the sadness and
the disappointment I was feeling. And so noticing that even
in the therapy room, you know, when I try to
be as human as possible, and so we might come
in and have a little joke for a little greeting,
you know, hello, and then when stuff starts to get
more serious, I know my voice goes to oh gosh, yeah,

(17:02):
you know, and then what happened or how did you
deal with that?

Speaker 4 (17:05):
And and I.

Speaker 5 (17:07):
Have clients who will come in and say, I got
something to talk about and I don't need your super
sweet voice today because they know they can feel that
that like gentler voice invites more vulnerability. What I love
about them being able to say that is they know
exactly what they need right now me to hold a

(17:29):
little toughness around it until they're ready to go really
into the deeper part of it. And so that's the
part of the stance of sort of following along the client,
but also knowing when to challenge or when to push
a little bit. And there's that dance as a therapist
that we watch.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
I think tone goes really well with kids too, if
you think about it, because if you know it's as
you raise and lower it, they kind of know where
to be on edge. They'll know they're in trouble based
on what you're saying. You don't have to yell. Honestly,
most kids I know with my four year old that
went through marriage, my wife's daughter. She reacts different than
my kids, and my kids didn't do the same thing

(18:10):
like like her. It's like you get a little too
high in tone of voice. It'll startle her, but then
she'll she'll know her, you know, either she goes by. Now,
I'm just a lot of person sometimes, you know, and
it just happens. So it doesn't really freak out as
much at first it did. She's very sensitive to tone, but
you can tell she responds based on what tone you're given.
So you got to be careful and you call her
name her aloud, she thinks she's in trouble, she'll run.

Speaker 5 (18:31):
You know.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
You got to kind of be calm and talk real
low to her, just real gentle with there, you know,
because you know, I've been learning, you know, the kids
said it was four noticed a lot of stuff like that.
So if we start, me and my wife start having
a disagreement or something, her sounds like it.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
She'll get up and start telling us to calm down. Everybody,
everybody calmed down. I'm like, listen.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
We stop and tell her, like, hey, listen, you know,
it's not that we're just talking that's all it is. Yeah,
you know, but it's it's so fascinating to see that
this little girl at four years old is picking up
on these things already, and it's so sure.

Speaker 4 (18:58):
So the nervous is some is.

Speaker 5 (19:00):
The sympathetic nervous system is fully developed by thirty two
weeks in utero, so the baby is already starting to
feel these nervous system responses. What kids don't have is
the cognitive framework to understand what's happening. And so I
would say kids are uniquely positioned to really be taught

(19:24):
through the lens of the polyvagel theory because they live
in their body. They don't have that intellectual process that
you know, interrupting. They're just they can feel their feelings.
They get afraid of something, and actually I say this too.
We experience our feelings in our body and it's typically

(19:46):
our caregivers that then give a name to that feeling.
So they see something, an animal, and they come running
to you and you go, oh, you're just afraid, and
then they go, oh, clockt this internal body sensation means
a freak. They go with their life, But you're right,

(20:06):
and some of them, so I learned this theory when
my kids were little, and it really probably impacted my
parenting more than anything else, and was really the.

Speaker 4 (20:18):
Drive to learn more and more about probabego theory, but.

Speaker 5 (20:23):
Being able to apply those different theories, looking at tone
of voice, looking at eye contact with my kids, looking
at body positions, you know, were they curled in or
were they able to kind of come this way, and
just being able to read there. And even babies do it.
They give cues of eye contact or not. They splay,

(20:44):
they can splay their hands. It makes me laugh because
we used to say talk to the hand, you know,
like ten years so babies do that. They will put
up a hand when they need a break. Their bodies
tense and move and that same cadence, and so looking
at that and then realizing for me and I have
my fair share of trauma and stress in my life,

(21:07):
looking at how I would avoid eye contact with certain people,
and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is polyvagel Like
I'm not feeling safe. And so then it challenged me like, okay,
you're a competent adult.

Speaker 4 (21:20):
What do you need to do? A need to develop
a sense of safety.

Speaker 5 (21:24):
To be able to live more freely in the world
so that I'm not bound up in all of my
stories that I'm creating by these different body sensations.

Speaker 4 (21:35):
So it feels to me.

Speaker 5 (21:37):
And what I'm really passionate about is helping people understand
that your mental health doesn't start in your brain.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
It actually starts in your body.

Speaker 5 (21:46):
And so how do we recognize those messages from our
nervous system about how we're feeling if we're feeling safe
or unsafe emotionally in the world and the people in it,
and then we really go into breaking it down.

Speaker 4 (22:00):
You know. So well, we do a lot of mapping.

Speaker 5 (22:04):
I use a a mapping system that I created where
we can really look at relationships.

Speaker 4 (22:11):
Yeah, and I might say, like.

Speaker 5 (22:13):
I might say to you, who who's your safest relationship
and you would say my wife, and okay, she's in
that category. And I would say, wait a minute, because
your wife is going to do things and you're going
to do things every day that help us feel less
connected than at other times.

Speaker 4 (22:30):
So we're always living.

Speaker 5 (22:31):
On this continuum of how we feel emotionally safe or unsafe,
and when we could really recognize the cues that our
body gives us and know what to do with those cues.
It frees us up from the stories we create and
even from being held hostage with some of the emotions.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
I call it emotional terrorism, but you know, yeah, same
thing basically, you know, and go back to the twenty
about with eye contact with kids. With her, it's like,
I make sure she's looking at me when I ask
her to do something. I look her straight in the eyes,
and I'll ask her directly what to do, and I'll
point to what I'm talking about. And I find that
a lot of times she responds really well. She understands
is you know, if you treat her like a person.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
Not like hey, yell at her.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
Hey, no to say, hey, listen, Ali can look at me.
I said, listen, look at it, and I'm like, listen,
listen in she look at you and not like she's
looking at you. Hey, can you go pick that up
for me, and I'll point to what it is. She'll
look over at it what it is too, and she
tends to respond right away. And it was so interesting
because versus what my kids was different. I yelled and
screaming my kids all the thing things I shouldn't have
done that I learned, you know, through.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
Because you know, I didn't I was young. That ain't
no better. And you know, we have kids at early
age these days, you know, you don't know whether these.

Speaker 3 (23:39):
Things, you know, And I wish I do a lot
of things I do now that I get use with
them like I use with her, because it's different her.
It's like, I don't yell if I get if I
feel I'm gonna y'll walk away in another room. I'll
try and get away, you know, or I'll apologize, like hey,
sorry to me to get you upset or whatever.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
Because she understands, Like I know she understands based.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
On the things I've learned from doing the show and
the people I've met, people are taught me things that
she understands a lot more.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
So I chease her like she knows a lot more,
you know. And it's great.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
And she's she's almost five now, and her and I
we cook together. She can cook her own eggs and
everything herself. You know, I'm teaching her new things as
we go to see what else she can handle. You know, Hey,
this is hot, that's cold, don't touch this. And she's
really good when you say, hey, please don't touch this.
That's why you're supposed touch that you know, and things
like that, and she responds really well with it too,
And it's really it's interesting to see the different approach

(24:26):
and taking down because if you would have told my
kids that's what I'm doing, there be like, oh no, Dad,
that's not what you did.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
With us, she yelled us, and this and that.

Speaker 5 (24:33):
Yeah, And we in a big part of you know,
we're writing this book about how do we use probably
Bagel theory in counseling with kids. A parent could pick
it up and read it and learn, you know, really
good stuff too. In fact, we'll have sections for how
do we apply this as a family, how do the
parents start.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
To okay okay? Systems?

Speaker 5 (24:55):
And while the skills are kind of directed towards counselor
search and no reason parents can't use some of the techniques.

Speaker 4 (25:02):
But I like what's happening here because you and I
are talking right now about our own responses to stress
or you know whatever.

Speaker 5 (25:11):
We need something done and we're going to have somebody
to do it or instruct somebody to do it, and
what our nervous system is doing, and how our tone
of voice changes.

Speaker 4 (25:20):
But that also happens with the people we're interacting with and.

Speaker 5 (25:24):
When it happens with kids, one of our messages is, again,
they don't necessarily have the cognitive ability to understand that,
even though their body knows. But what we all need
as a beginning point for developing felt emotional safety is
positive connection with another.

Speaker 4 (25:45):
And so you know what I would say.

Speaker 5 (25:48):
If you were going to tell me a story about
her coming to you unregulated.

Speaker 4 (25:52):
Or upset or you know, throwing a tantrum or whatever.

Speaker 5 (25:56):
Our message always is, find a way to connect before
we do any corrective action. Right, so as long as
everybody is physically safe, we want to take corrective action
if we're not in a safe environment physically. Once we're
physically safe, before we correct, before we discipline, before we

(26:17):
discuss why we shouldn't do that or we should do that,
we need to come to a connecting point. So that
might look like, oh, gosh, I can see you're giving
really big feelings, or it might be hey, why don't
we go for a walk for a little bit before
we talk about this, or do you want to just
you want me to scratch your back for a little

(26:38):
bit before we talk about this. Some that connection, a
way to connect that brings our nervous systems to a
more regulated place so that a we can then discuss
or look at what the situation is, but we can
also both respond from the place in our brain we're
both our logic and our emotions are regulated, because if

(27:02):
we're too much in the logic or too much in
the emotions, we're not really experiencing our life in the
best way possible. And we can bring those two parts
of ourselves, of our brain and of ourselves together when
we have that sense of help safety which comes from
good social connection.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, no, I agree completely.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
I think that you know, with her, it's I'm learning
the things I'm learning now I'm applying to her, and
it's different because she's not my own flesh and blood,
which that a lot of people. That makes the difference.
To me, it doesn't. I've always been accepting everybody. But
that also comes from the fact I was abandoned when
it's ten. So, you know, like I learned that too
early on when I talked to a gentleman named doctor Tim.

(27:43):
He had told me he said, you know why that is?
He's like can He started like pinpointing these things about me,
and it was just weird. I was like doctor Tim,
if you're calling me out right now, Manhu on the
second okay, you know, but he was like picking these
things out and I learned very early on that d
you can learn these things and start to see these
things ahead of time. And he's like, yeah, did you
know that? Do you do these kind of things? You
make sure people feel included in things? And like yeah,
he goes, because you know why that is? He goes,

(28:04):
it's because of your were you abandoned as a kid?
Didn't even know this and started asking these questions. I
was like, whoa, I feel a little called out of
your man'stuff. But you know, the thing with kids, though,
is I've met a few people now that that's what
their focus is. One guy, he has a book called
just Breathe and Leroy. He's in Canada. He's a principal
at school, and he was telling me that he applies
it there in his own school. These these kids youngest
four and five. He's teaching them page just taking deep

(28:26):
breath and think about the next thing you do. And
I think we as adults should do the same thing.
It's just hey, just take a deep breath, think about
what you're going to say next, because what if you
say next could turn the conversation good or bad, you know,
And I feel like people's emotions get too much in
it sometimes, like you get hyped up and you start
going like, you know, start getting mad. Every starts yellments,
and now like normally I used to engage in arguments,
but now it's like these people I come in and

(28:48):
starre yelling at me. I'm just sitting there in my head
thinking like, what's my next plan is to have to
make because I'm just thinking, ooh, this is so funny.
And in my head I'm thinking, ooh, you're getting real
mad about this, okay, so you're really okay, And I'm
just like I'm saying, it's completely calm as possible because
I already know this is like if I fuel this
fire more, this is going to get.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
Out of hand real quick.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
And you know, I'm taking the high road versus you know,
Pete twenty years ago. Oh no, I woul like this
listens for the gasoline baby, let's start that zucker INTHM.
But it's it's so interesting though that you guys are
working towards children, you know, do you have like a
suggest age you should start working with them at these
kind of things can you start, like, is really as
boor or I mean you said, you said the whole.

Speaker 5 (29:25):
The whole piece of doing infant massage around connection is
totally supported by polybagel pieries. Okay, so as we're as
soon as the kid's born, you can start.

Speaker 4 (29:38):
They don't have.

Speaker 5 (29:39):
Language, so the way they communicate is with their body
and with their tone. And typically we say they cry
or they don't cry, but the reality is they tone
all the time. Yeah, yeah, And if you listen to
the different kinds of pries, it also tells.

Speaker 4 (29:56):
You so some like eh, it can really just.

Speaker 5 (30:01):
Be their effort at telling a story about something that happened,
and so to respond to them like, yeah, what happened next,
and tell me everything, and it's almost like you're having
a conversation where they're feeling heard and you don't even
need words.

Speaker 4 (30:16):
There's a beautiful clip on.

Speaker 5 (30:18):
YouTube of a man and his son and they're sitting
on the TV watching TV or sitting on the couch
watching TV and somebody's videotaping them and the child can
sit up and interact but doesn't yet have language, and
so that you see the child kind of pointing at
the TV and talking to the day and the Daan's.

Speaker 4 (30:40):
Like, yeah, can you believe that? And then they did
this and what else?

Speaker 5 (30:44):
And so the kids responding but without language, and it's
so joyful and it's funny, and it's just one of
the most beautiful examples I've ever seen of this building
felt safety and communication without words.

Speaker 4 (30:58):
And so we have to think about that with kids, not.

Speaker 5 (31:02):
Only even if they have language, knowing that they don't
have the cognitive structure for everything we do, and so
responding in ways that they can receive.

Speaker 4 (31:13):
But attachment starts even in a year to row right, And.

Speaker 5 (31:17):
Everything I'm describing is really about building attachment between the
baby and whoever is interacting with them.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
Hey, I'm Justin Rhodes's hosts of Mentally.

Speaker 6 (31:27):
About Us, the podcast where we have the kind of
conversation most people are too scared to have.

Speaker 4 (31:33):
We talk about mental health.

Speaker 6 (31:34):
Identity, healing, and what it means to actually take care
of yourself without the fluff. Our guests share stories that
are wild, raw, sometimes hilarious, is sometimes heartbreakingly real.

Speaker 4 (31:45):
We dive into stuff no one wants to say.

Speaker 6 (31:47):
Out loud, grief, trauma, shame, and even the awkward things
like feeling like you're too much or not enough.

Speaker 4 (31:55):
But we don't just sit in the heavy.

Speaker 6 (31:57):
Every episode leaves you with something useful, own actual advice
to help you move.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
Through your own stuff.

Speaker 6 (32:03):
If you try to surface level pogue and ready for
something deeper, check out Mostly about Us wherever you get
your podcasts.

Speaker 5 (32:13):
The other thing I wanted to point out, you know,
talking about breath work is so the polyvagel theory is
built on Stephen Porgus's discoveries that the vegas nerve and
most animals, like not mammals, but sort of, the different
classifications of animals have one branch of the vegas nerve,
and it serves to protect. It serves to move us

(32:36):
into our defense strategies when we're feeling threatened, when we're
feeling physically threatened.

Speaker 4 (32:43):
Put mammals on board. Mammals have a bigger brain.

Speaker 5 (32:46):
And when you look at any species of mammals, they need.

Speaker 4 (32:50):
Each other to survive. So and that's why you hear you.

Speaker 5 (32:54):
Know, terms like a gaggle or a posse or you
know these apack, these different plants offications for groups, is
because all mammals need each other. And so that vegas
nerve in mammals has a second branch, so that's where
we get the poll meaning more than one. A second
branch that facilitates our social interaction with each other. So

(33:18):
while the original branch basically does defense mechanisms, this second
branch leaves the brainstem. The vegas nerve does and serves
our muscles of facial expression, our tone of voice, how
we hear right, so we can give our emotional state
through our tone of voice, but what we hear from

(33:38):
another's tone is going to impact how we feel safe
or not. And the other part of that second branch
goes to manage heartbrate variability.

Speaker 4 (33:49):
And what's interesting about breathing is.

Speaker 5 (33:51):
That breathing is the number one way to impact heart
rate variability and it is through the vegas nerve that
that happens. And so when we can do that breathing
where our exhale is extended, it brings the heart rate down.

Speaker 4 (34:07):
And big emotions can't live in.

Speaker 5 (34:09):
The body when our heart rates lowered, So anxiety for existence,
it's feeds on the heart rates feeding, and so when
we can use breathing or anything to slow our heart rate,
but breathing is certainly the number one way to do that.

Speaker 4 (34:26):
They can't. They're like oil and water, right, they can't
live together.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
I could contest to that completely though, because when my
anxiety gets high, my heart rate starts racing, and you know,
I know what I'm about to have, like a panic
attack moment, you know, and a very very few but
I know when it's coming. It's that feeling you don't forget,
and it's almost like simulating having a heart attack almost.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
You just can't breathe.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
You get your oss racing, and that's the first thing
you're trying to do is take controls. You're trying to
just breathe and get your breath back in control because if.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Not, that's up, you're going ready for a spot ride.

Speaker 6 (34:58):
You know.

Speaker 3 (34:58):
And people that don't understand those those things it makes
me laugh because they're like, oh, well, just relax or
just calm down, yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Or even just breathe too.

Speaker 5 (35:08):
When you get to the point you're describing, which to
me is kind of one end of the continuum, it
can be hard to.

Speaker 4 (35:13):
Find our breath.

Speaker 5 (35:15):
So what we're looking at is can you recognize those
signs of anxiety before they get to that extreme end
of the spectrum because I always say feelings are like toddlers,
you know.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
So you might.

Speaker 5 (35:29):
Feel a little discontent and your body's giving you some messages,
but generally we all ignore those and then it gets
a little more intense and a little more intense. You
almost always have signs before you get to panic attack.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
Yeah, and if we can watch those signs.

Speaker 5 (35:47):
But I say it's like having a toddler, because when
a toddler wants your attention, they'll be like mom, a
body right, and our body sensations that are communicating something
to us do the same thing. They come in slow,
and as we ignore them, they get louder and louder.

Speaker 3 (36:06):
You know that's right, because you know what usually it
starts to me is that the thought will start going.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
To my head and they start tip swirling, and then.

Speaker 5 (36:12):
Buy something adds onto it what happened before the thought,
because the thought is the story.

Speaker 4 (36:18):
That was developed from some sensation.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, exactly, feeling safe.

Speaker 5 (36:23):
So by the time you notice the thoughts, or at
least for me, by the time I noticed the thoughts,
I'm going wait a minute, back.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
Up, Yeah, that's what I'm doing now, sory and come
back here. That's exactly what I do now, and caught
myself off their ledge like I started, Like I said,
that's why they start like dissecting it a little bit, like, well,
hold on, we got this thought going, Let's let's process
this thought really quick before we start.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
Overreacting, you know.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
And then it's like if you're stressed out, then it's like, oh, well,
now you got this added on. Now it's multiplying that
one now because the stress is adding on to it,
you know. But you know, you're still trying to fight it,
like hey listen, you know, and it's it's a constant
battle in your head.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
People don't know it, you know.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
Some people that can recognize it can see it sometimes
where I'm I'm in deep thought.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
In my own mind.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
I'm just kind of walking around an autopilot and deep
thought or thinking about somebody like oh you're okay, I'm good,
you know, because you.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Know, you don't want to include the people in it,
because a lot of peoplen't understand what's going on, you know,
it is right.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
It's funny to me because it's like a lot of
people want to give you advice, but half of them
have no idea what they're even talking about.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Nine percent of the time, it's like it's great, you know.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
And I'll use an example like I got robbed at
gunpoint one time when I was living in Houston, and
then everybody afterwards want to tell.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Me what I should have done. I'm like, yeah, See,
when you're in that situation and.

Speaker 5 (37:29):
You're dealing with that, frame goes offline, you know, and
working from that safety perspective, and your body will do
whatever it needs to be exactly experience safety and none
of us know what we're going to do.

Speaker 4 (37:42):
Well, no, and when we get in that situation.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
It was luckily it turned out really okay in the
situation wise, you nobody got hurt, which is the most
important thing of it. But it was like in that moment,
it happened like slow motion. As it started happening, like
I didn't realize it at first, and it was just
like a real slow much the person that all said
it just kicked back on all of a sudden full speed,
and then you know, everything just happened so fast. And

(38:05):
then when left, I was like so highd on and
drenaline just because everything going on.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
And then I just started shaking emotionally because I didn't
know what to.

Speaker 3 (38:12):
Do at the places, I was like, oh shit, had
just survived gun having two guns put on me and.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
I'm still alive. You're like, oh god, you know, like
you start having that you know, like remorse.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
Like you're oh shit, are you should be through this
kind of thing, you know, And it was just like,
you know, I.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Had to talk yourself off the ledge from there because
it was just horrible, you know. And then when I
went back after.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
The whole situation, I was paranoid for a few days because,
you know, where I was in the same place, I
was always looking constantly looking where it was because where
the setup is there's a back door, and we always
kept telling them, hey, you know, we shouldn't leave that
door open at night because you never know who's going
to come out because the area we are in is
kind of rough, so you know, so I was constantly
staring at that door every so often. It didn't matter
what time to day it was. I was just, oh,

(38:50):
they're looking at it every so often in a paranoid state,
you know. And now I've used it as as a
teaching tool for people, like, hey, listen, you always want
to be aware of your surroundings when you're here man,
just we're here in.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
The middle of night. There's a lot of things going
on here.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
Make sure you're paying attention to weird cars, you know,
and there are different things you run through the series.
I know now you know, but everybody you wanted to
tell me all this is what I did. You should
have done this, you should have done that. I'm like, hm,
you should have been there instead, and tell me how
it goes for you to try that.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Be a hero.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Great, you want to be a super Hey, listen, Batman's
not real, but you're about.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
To find out here we go.

Speaker 5 (39:20):
You know.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
It's like it's like great for everybody telling me what
to do in this situation.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
I'm like, when you live through this situation, it's a.

Speaker 3 (39:25):
Whole note ball game, you know, like it's a one
in lifetime experience, like not something I want to ever do.
And so now I'm like extra harder when it comes
to those kind of things. Now when I'm teaching people,
I'm like, listen, I just want y'all to know because
I'm like the old guy teaching the young guys everything,
like the karate kid type deal.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
I'm teaching these guys and things I listened.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
I maybe sound like I'm bantering to you, but let
me tell you some facts here, facts of these and
then you just laid out for them like I'm just
looking out for your safety at the end of the day,
because I know what it's like, I've been there. I
don't know if you'll come back from it the same
way I did, you know, and we've had situations before.
You know, it's just the line of working to do any ways.
You know, it's just you get into that scenario, the possibility.

(40:03):
So I'm like, the idea is that you want to
give them less chances that they'll be here for that
no reason. You won't give anybody a reason to do something,
So don't.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
Do these things.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
They're just like these little steps and things that have
and I'm like, hey, listen, just these are why I'm
so hard on these things. So you know, you know,
it's like teaching a kid, you know, different kind of things,
so you're teaching them the same way. And it's like,
you know, I'm not trying to be you know, I'm
not trying to get a case, but at the same time,
I'm trying to understand that you don't want to go
through this experience.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
I've lived it for us both. You don't want to
be in this situation. Trust me. There's people I know
that don't come back from these situations.

Speaker 5 (40:33):
You know.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
We had a young lady one situation where I got
a hand, but they end up having to shoot the
guy because he wouldn't let.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Go the girl. He had her by the throat or whatever.
Never saw that girl again. I don't even know. In fact,
I don't even know if she even made it that much.
She she's just she had a rough time afterwards.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
And you know, it's like, these are the things that
you don't want to experience, you know, and then people
are like, oh no, we'll be fine, Okay, will you
say that?

Speaker 5 (40:52):
But when you get in that both sometimes even all
the preparation, we're still experiencing things that they're hard. And
you know, my hope is that people understand that's what
you can take to therapy, and we use the polyvagel
theory as kind of the grounding of any modality we
use in therapy, and then building on that, we might

(41:13):
use AMDR, which would be a great solution for the
situations you just described, or somatic experiencing or EFT, all
the different modalities, but for us understanding those ideas around
mental health.

Speaker 4 (41:29):
Starting in the body is the groundwork.

Speaker 5 (41:32):
How do we recognize what's happening in our nervous system,
how do we support our nervous system for good mental health?

Speaker 4 (41:39):
And then let's move from there.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Yeah, Amy, let me ask you, though, why is it
that until now I've never heard of the polyvagel. Do
you think it's just because a lot of people know
that the term is but just don't use that term,
or is it I'm.

Speaker 5 (41:52):
Actually surprised you haven't heard it, given that you've been
doing this podcast for a while.

Speaker 4 (41:57):
It definitely is a newer theory.

Speaker 5 (42:00):
And it's and so to make the distinction, it's not
a modality like AMDR or CBT or modalities.

Speaker 4 (42:07):
It's really a theory and it is newer.

Speaker 5 (42:10):
So his original work was published in the early nineties.

Speaker 4 (42:14):
But it wasn't until.

Speaker 5 (42:17):
I think it was twenty seventeen or eighteen when dev
Dana's book came out using the poly bagel theory in counseling,
that it really hit the therapy world. And I had
been trying. So Doctor Pordges is a beautiful, lovely man
who is so smart that when you listen to him
talk you have fam a dictionary or something nearby, Right,

(42:40):
So I've been following him and kind of translating this,
and I was using the poly bagel theory in how
I would teach infant massage, right, that was the basis
of that. But I really knew there was information here
to help adults in this way. Perhaps that's the biggest

(43:01):
driving factor kind of coming back around to moving from
massage therapy to mental health therapy.

Speaker 4 (43:09):
Had a lot to do with that, and so.

Speaker 5 (43:13):
That came forward, and definitely in the field of counseling,
it's catching like wildfire.

Speaker 4 (43:19):
But even if you look at.

Speaker 5 (43:24):
Anybody who's really focusing on trauma recovery, so yoga and
you know, holistic practitioners. I even met with a chiropractor
last week who wanted to kind of collaborate in the
way that you know, we can look at chiropractic as
it makes your back feel better, but the reality is
you're trying to create a clear pathway for the spinal
cord nervous system so that the body functions well. Because

(43:48):
if one of those those nerve the nervous system, what
am I looking for not the neurons, but like the
pathway out of the spinal cord if that's twisted or
in pit and somehow those sensations are not moving through
the body and the way we need them to.

Speaker 4 (44:06):
Right, So looking at the nervous system.

Speaker 5 (44:08):
A little bit differently in terms of O we're all health,
but looking at it in terms of our mental health,
it is definitely And I know my feed's going to
read different than yours right.

Speaker 4 (44:18):
Because I'm in it.

Speaker 5 (44:20):
But yeah, yoga practitioners will say, oh, we're going to
do this class to calm the nervous system or things
like that. So and maybe you've seen it and just
ignored it because you didn't.

Speaker 4 (44:32):
Know what it was.

Speaker 5 (44:33):
But it's definitely in my world kind of catching and
taking store all over the world. You know, we're working
on a training to do with counselors in Turkey right now,
so it's that's so cool there.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, that's so cool Turkey too.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
That's that's really cool to see that you're getting out
that far too, because you know you can learn different
things from them, and I know, I know mention is
always interesting, especially when you go to the listic side
of things. I've had a lot of holistic healers here
that have always fascinated me because I think, like, what
was it.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Maybe in the first few months of the show, I.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
Did an interview with a woman who called herself the
Energy Alchemist, and then I learned that I was sensitive
to energy and things like that, which made a lot
of sense because I could explain this feeling, you know.
And then for whatever reason, I just kept getting more
people that fell in that category.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
For a while. We just kept talking about it.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
In different different ideas, and it was interesting to me
because it was just like it made sense because now
I could explain the sensation I'm having.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
You know, and things like that.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
You know, And the show is not even a year old,
and we're already at like one hundred plus episodes now
live episodes recorded my other sides at like fifty something
right now, so you know, things like that. But it's
it's always interesting to meet to people, especially when I
saw that.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
To us like Paul Bigel, I'm like, what is that?
I'm curious, you know.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
But now it makes more sense because I know, I've
met a lot of people that do yoga too, because
yoga's a big practice that seems to be coming up too.
Rath work is coming up more and more and more.
I think more people are going the holistic signe versus
you know a lot of the big pharmacy side because
you know, we're all now paying attention to a lot
of these side effects, which is great because you know
it that's my thing that everybody's always like like, hey, listen,

(46:07):
just don't don't don't go tunnel vision, don't go just
thinking therapies did.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
If it don't work for you, that'said there. No, there's
so many.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
Different things now, the broad spectrum of things you can
try out there these days, you know, and I feel
like a lot of people live in the you know,
we want it now kind of face, and it's like,
it's not like that, unfortunately, So this stuff takes you know,
these people are offering you quick Oh I could hear
this in ten seconds.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, it doesn't work like that, unfortunately.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
I'm glad they want to tell you that, Okay, this
is the quick here, you know, but it's really not,
you know. And I think when it comes to emotions too,
people don't want to talk about their emotions because they
don't want to except they have emotions, especially for men, though,
you know, think about if you don't talk about anything,
so men's mental health moms. You know, a lot of
people are highlighting a lot of stuff, you know, and
things like that too. And I was watching this crazy

(46:50):
video the other day to this woman that was mocking it,
and I had not seen it until just a few
days ago, and I was like, how they missed this video.
Apparently this woman had posted a video saying when it
says silence from men's mental health, she's throwing a party
in the background, literally her having a party, making it
an I think she was trying to be funny. But
then you know, the internet got at going after this
woman bad, like she cancel her social media accounts everything else.

(47:14):
Her family came out and said something to you, And
I'm just like looking at this in shock.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
I'm like, this is ridiculous. And then all of a sudden,
here comes to more videos of these. I'm like, what
the hell is going on here? Guys like what it was?

Speaker 3 (47:25):
It's like, we're making a mockery of mental health in general.
It doesn't care men, women doesn't. It doesn't matter what
it is. It's the fact that you're making. You're telling
that these people don't.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
Have you know, have no no right as men, We don't.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
We shouldn't talk about these things just like you know,
it's it's you know, any any kind of thing that's
in that kind of category. It's it's crazy to think
that that's how we operate as a society.

Speaker 5 (47:44):
Now.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
It's like, you know, you want to tell us all
how we should act.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
But it's like when we start talking about feelings, oh,
everybody runs.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Man, they take off.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
Especially suicideation, I think is the one that really is
a big trigger point for people.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
They just go, okay, see.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
You checking out, you know, And I think that it's
it's add because it's like it's the numbers are going up,
Like honestly, from what I've been looking at, the numbers
just keep going up. And it's just like, guys, when
are we going to do something about this? We need
to talk more about these things just in general, mental
in general. I think, you know, that's the great thing
of the show. And then other shows I've seen since
I started that jumped into conversation with me, and I'm

(48:17):
just like, yeah, this is.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
What I want, man, I want more people.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
And you know, people start mentioning my name, say, well,
you know, you know Pete for anxiety. People anxiety just
wants the same thing. I want you all to join
this conversation. The more voices like get in here, let's go,
you know. And that's the same thing with podcasting too.
A lot of people say, oh, well, somebody has the
same idea.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Do you have your own voice? Man?

Speaker 3 (48:35):
You said down's the time to be heard. Man, we're
in the age of podcasting at this point. Now that
I'm getting ont in here and start spreading your voice now,
because if not, don't be in the what if moment
of well I could have started doing this thing, or
I could.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
Have Who cares?

Speaker 3 (48:45):
Man, You never know. I think people are too scared
to try things nowadays. They don't take a leap of
faith and things. It's like, just go for it.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
Why not?

Speaker 3 (48:50):
So what at the end of the day, when do
you have to lose? Oh, you spent some time doing
this thing. Okay, then work? Okay, then work. At least
you gave it a shot, you get you tried, you know.
I mean that's my theory, you know, and I think
about it.

Speaker 5 (49:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
So but listen, Amy, I have to ask you a question. Okay,
So I stole this idea from somebody else. My good
friend Gretchen, who runs the shit that goes on her head.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
She asks me this question.

Speaker 3 (49:13):
That I'm going to ask you now, if your mental
health had a song, what would that song be?

Speaker 2 (49:19):
Listen?

Speaker 3 (49:20):
I love to add response again because everybody thinks so
far it's laughed because I asked you, because.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
It's so interesting.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
Because I had a woman she came on she said
Michael Jackson's beat and I was just like, oh girl.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Okay, I like that one.

Speaker 5 (49:31):
Okay, Well, I live by humors, so the first songs
that come to mind are like Biggie Sean, I think
it's Biggie, No, it's I can't no, it's not Biggie.

Speaker 4 (49:46):
I can't remember who sings it. But there's a song
I Ain't f n with you that brod me laugh.
The other one that I laugh about is I think
it's NARLS Barkley. Does you think I'm craze see that?

Speaker 3 (50:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yeah, that one?

Speaker 4 (50:01):
Yeah, and everybody, gosh, that's a really good one.

Speaker 6 (50:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
Asked was on the show and asked me that question.
I was like, all right, well, I told her it's like, yeah,
I stole your idea. By the way, I've been asking
people by saying question because it's interesting the responses you
get from different people, you know, and it's like music songs.

Speaker 5 (50:20):
Are like my crazy, you know, my my that end
of the continuum, right, feeling a lot of emotion or whatever.
Here's what I would say, And I'm going to think
about this and I'm going to message you back when
I figured this out. Yeah, I've had a lot of
trauma in my life. I have two siblings that are schizophrenic,
one is less one is also learning disabled. Those are

(50:43):
kind of ongoing struggles plus the other, like, you know,
myriad of things that I've been through. And what I
know to be true about my mental health is that
I always really struggled, kind of didn't know I was struggling.
Once I hit the compassion button, it completely opened up

(51:03):
my world to another way of being with myself, with
my own struggles, with the people I love and their struggles,
and then being able to bring this into into the
therapy room and to build this practice. You know, we
are called rooted compassion for a reason. Is because I
feel very rooted in my ability to be compassionate with

(51:25):
a different situations. So off the top of my head,
I can't think of a song that incorporates that.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
Well, now you can use it and ask me that
question now, see, because it's interesting to say, because it's
interesting response that you get, and things like that too.
And I think for the longest time, I lied to
myself that I had a.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Problem, and in fact I know I did. I mean,
that's how the show started.

Speaker 3 (51:49):
Funny enough, is that this show started because of my
own mental issues.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
I decided to start to look.

Speaker 3 (51:53):
Into mind and I was wondering and I got more
curious about like just just things in general mental health.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
For what a reason.

Speaker 3 (51:58):
I just had this feeling like I just want to
look into it and see what's up. But I start
looking and I see all these shows, okay, mostly doctors
and everything else. But where are the people that are
having just general conversations like I am. I no means
any professional. I'm just a guy who's curious and bringing
the conversation. And little do I know how much this
show would take off of what it did because what
I did in the beginning. By the end of like

(52:20):
first or second week, I was already out to the
end of the year, already with people. And then I
added at three o'clock time slotch just you know, for
every Mondays because I was originally what I planned on doing.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Then it was more.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Now I'm up to five days a week, I'm doing
a recording every day with people, and it's just like
I can't get enough of the information I get from people,
and I try and invite the most interesting people on
top of that too, just different things just to bring
it on, just to highlight the things they're doing, like
psychedelics and all these other things, realistic healings and you know,
faith based. You know, it's like I don't leave any
subject untouched at all though, but.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
You know, I feel like, you know.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
It's it's been great though. It's like the evolution of
Pete is happening before everybody's eyes. If you watch in
the beginning of this show to the end where I'm
at now, you'll see a major difference in everything. Like
I change the way interview people. I don't do the
same reductions. You know, I've upgraded a lot of different things.
My logo has changed since the beginning, you know, all
these small little tics of things I've been doing as
I go, And it's like I feel like I can

(53:15):
see it and people can see it too, because now
when you know, people say, oh, well, you sound intelligent.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
That was my favorite thing.

Speaker 6 (53:19):
Though.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
By the way people tell me.

Speaker 3 (53:20):
I sound intelligent, I'm like, what does that mean exactly?

Speaker 2 (53:24):
Like, because I have thoughts, you don't. You just don't.

Speaker 3 (53:27):
You never wanted to listen to me because I always
felt like I've never heard because I was always the
middle child, you know. And a lot of people always
say that too, And it makes me laugh now because
people are like, well, you sound so intelligent.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
You don't sound the same.

Speaker 3 (53:37):
But it's like, maybe it's because I was probably like
twelve years old at the time, and I didn't have
any logic of what I was saying, you know, and
you know, and the evolution to me has changed, so
I'm like, my thought process has changed.

Speaker 5 (53:48):
You.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
I don't react the same way I do the things,
you know, And it's always interesting every conversation I've got
into so far, I think I've had no problem having.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
A conversation about anything, you know.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
And when it said neuroscience, I was like, oh, yes,
I like that part because me and Betsy Homberg had
an hour long conversation with sec neggtive self talk and
me and her were just going back and forth. But
Betsy had the ability to give you the technical side
but then break it down so you understood exactly what
it was. And I understood a lot of it, and
me and her had it just a blast doing that,
you know. And it makes me laugh when he said that.

(54:19):
It's like, oh, well you got to come into code
with they're saying. I'm like, it's so funny because in
the sense of like, if his work was big in
the nineties, it makes sense because a lot of times
you didn't meet a lot of people then they could
really explain it to you.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Now a lot of people are moving that way.

Speaker 4 (54:34):
And his work wasn't big in the nineties.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Oh it wasn't. Okay, that's when he released, did his
first talk, okay, okay.

Speaker 5 (54:43):
Published his first paper, and now he's got a ton
of books, a ton of research everything. But yeah, I
think people are really just starting to listen to polybago
theory in the last eight years.

Speaker 3 (54:56):
Maybe there you go, Yeah, so real quick, Amy, the
new book, do you do you have? What's the progress?
Are we are we close to publishing or is it
still in work?

Speaker 5 (55:05):
Just just asking yeah, so they actually give you a
full year to write, so okay.

Speaker 4 (55:10):
In the middle of that year.

Speaker 5 (55:12):
Okay, So we exdue December thirty first, and from what
I understand, it can take up to a year after
that to actually get it on shelves. So but we're
hoping to get it in early. Okay, we've been working
really hard on it.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
Well you know you know what that means.

Speaker 3 (55:29):
So that means that we'll have to invite you back,
of course, to come back and talk to us when
you can do this the full details on the book
and everything else, because I love talking to people, especially
authors and books because they're interested, you know. And the
only thing I asked a lot is just like I
take a copy signed from you. It could be great
because I could say, listen, Amy was on my show
before you take off with all these publications that could
be coming down the way, you know, and things like that.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
So we definitely, for sure, we'll definitely had to figure out.
Let me keep me.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
Posted though about that, because I'll definitely have you come
back and we can we can go deep. Did we
dive in there and look at it and you can
give us a little more splation on the book. I'll
take Suan bros. So I have an idea what it
is and you know that way on properson. You know,
we'll plan all this stuff in the vaccine. But anyways,
I'm excited though, because I'm always interested in learning the things.
I think what you're doing is groundbreaking. I think that,
you know, starting to talk to kids is a big thing.

(56:12):
Is that I a lot to tell a lot of
people too. I think if we start teaching these guys younger,
I think that it's better for them in the future
because a lot of these kids that learn how to
do all these things early on, it's beneficial to them
later on. And we don't have so many you know,
issues you're running to now. And I think that what
you guys are doing is phenomenal. And the fact that
the parents can pick up read the book and still
apply it to it's even better because now you're hitting

(56:34):
that market to a lot of these parents that are
doing a lot of homeschooling. Now, hey, listen, they can
add that in the curriculum. I listen to listen to
a little list and you know, and things like that.
So I think there's nothing but good things coming down
the line. So as we get ready to start wrapping up,
did you want to go ahead and plug wherever everyone
can find you and they have a website. I have
all that stuff down blow, but you go ahead and
give it a shout out. Little know where they can
find you.

Speaker 5 (56:54):
Yeah, so we're Rudycompassion dot Com is our website. We're
on Instagram is at Polybago Counseling and on Facebook as
read and Compassion and then we have links to.

Speaker 4 (57:08):
Some YouTube pieces on our website.

Speaker 5 (57:11):
We also have links to practices to regulate your nervous
system on our website. So website is a good jumping
off point to learn skills.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
We can work with people in Kentucky and Ohio.

Speaker 5 (57:25):
As soon as the Counseling Compact gets signed, we'll be
able to work with people in other states.

Speaker 4 (57:32):
But for now that's where we are.

Speaker 5 (57:33):
But I'm always happy to travel or offer online trainings
to folks really anywhere in the world.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
Yeah, hey, guys, I'll have everything down below this video
for you. Guys, if you're listening to said a later
day in the audio site, I'll have everything in the
audio description for you to find it.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
And Amy, thank you so much for coming. I appreciating it.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
We're definitely gonna have her come back when she gets
close to the book coming out and everything that we
get an idea or when she gets a book so
she can really fully just dive into it with us
and things like that. You know, it was great having you.
I appreciate you coming and talking to me this. This
was a great I had a great time. Honestly, Yeah,
I've went so much great.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Thank you so much. Guys and always say, you know,
I'm peak for his anxiety.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
I'm allway down to TikTok, I'm on Spotify and night
I heard a radio and there's always say it costs
absolutely nothing, absolutely not to be kind of so many
one kind act you can do, can say says life.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
Or hell, you can make their day. I'm peaked for
its anxiety sign.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
I'm saying, don't ask how your days today, say hey,
how's about the health today,