December 12, 2024 • 52 mins
In this episode of Solving Healthcare, hosted by Dr. K, we're looking back at an amazing talk we had with Amie Varley and Sara Fung, the dynamic hosts of the Gritty Nurses podcast. Amie and Sara share their journeys as advanced nurses, discuss the importance of diversity and representation in healthcare leadership, and highlight the value of support systems and equality in the field. They also provide a glimpse into their podcast, where they tackle pressing topics in health and healthcare with authenticity and grit.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
Saga nine sixty am or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Turned my music Ha ha, sure I do.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
I'm from the streets.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Way to welcome back wealcast Nation. We got a special episode.
We got the hosts Amy and Sarah from the Gritty
Nurses podcast and we talk about it all things related
to healthcare that has been so paramount. We talk about
burnout within healthcare, We talk about systemic racism, We talk
(00:41):
about the rules as media personality would have seen them
on CBC CP twenty four interviews with Brian Goldman. These
guys are changing the bookingy Man for real. We also
talk about podcasting a little bit and advocating for other
healthcare providers. It's so you're going to really enjoy this episode.
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twenty eight day Reboot dot co. All right, let's do this.
We're gonna bring you the Gritty Nurses Amy and Sarah.
(03:14):
Let's just jump on it. And we got fill podcasters
in the mix. Sarah Amy, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Right, you better be man. We got the Gritty Nurse
podcast crew.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
And it's always fun getting other podcasters on board because
then like they're usually the easiest interview no pressure, because
you know, you know what it's like to be on
the interviewing side. So I'm so appreciative and like, this
was a long time coming. We've been connecting on social media,
y'all jumped on the solid wellness train. So yeah, thank you.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
So much for doing this, thank you for having us.
Like you said, we've been we've been waiting, so we're let.
Speaker 6 (04:00):
There are times that jar, and we got it.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
This time, it's going to be all yeah, I feel it,
I feel it, I feel it. Okay, I'm gonna start
with Sarah the Gritty Nurse, very successful podcast, but I
got to ask, like, how did this come to be?
How did you guys develop this super amazing show?
Speaker 7 (04:21):
You know, I think it was really a long time coming.
A lot of times people think that we had this
aha moment where we're like, let's start a podcast, but
I think really it's just a culmination of our experiences
in healthcare. So being nurses, being woman, we've experienced a
lot of challenges in our careers, and I think that
we really it really came to a head where Amy
(04:41):
and I worked together. So the backstory is Amy and
I have worked together in the past. We've been in
two different jobs together at two different organizations. She's like
my work wife, and we experienced a lot of bullying,
and we had some mental health struggles at one of
our organizations, and it got to the point where we
tried to bring our concerns up the chain of command
(05:02):
and it just went nowhere. So then finally Amy said
to me one day, why don't we do a podcast?
And I didn't know anything about podcasts. I didn't listen
to podcasts, and I'm like, sure, I'm game. Let's just
figure all this out. Like we had to figure out
social media, we had to figure out our audio equipment.
We really started from nothing, and so in the beginning
(05:23):
we kind of just did it as therapy. We talked
about our bullying experiences, our mental health struggles, and really
nobody was listening for a long time, and then people
started listening and it's just sort of snowball from there.
So for this whole year, for twenty twenty one, we've done,
you know, NonStop interviews.
Speaker 6 (05:40):
We're really enjoying.
Speaker 7 (05:41):
The platform that we've built, the support that we've given
to fellow nurses and healthcare providers, and we have a
lot of ideas for where we want to go next.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Wow, this is I love the story.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I let What I love about it, Sarah, is that
you know what, you took the power back. This is
one of the themes on our show is like what
can you do? What's action? You were seeing that you know,
there was that struggle where the bullying and being mistreated
and you wanted an outlet and a way to express it.
And the beautiful thing is by doing so, it's a
(06:14):
rallying cry. You know, it gets other nurses, other allied
health professionals to say, hey, we're not going to accept this.
This is this is not this is not kosher. But yeah,
and Amy, do you feel the same way? Was it
was really the push in terms of having that bullying
and the mistreatment.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Was that the heavy push for you to get this going?
Speaker 5 (06:38):
Yeah, that was that, I would say that would be
the driving force. And I feel like, you know, Sarah
and I've been through a lot together, and we knew
that other people had similar stories. We knew that other
people had shared experiences, and we're like, you know, let's
talk about ours so other people can be.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Like, yeah, that was me too.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
I I had that happen to me and you know,
I didn't know how to deal with it or or
you know, let's say it was about let's say it
was about racism. It's like, okay, we're two racialized women
having a podcast, which is which is quite unprecedent if
you look at all the other podcasts, as most of
them are like white males. So for two racialized females
to kind of come onto the scene and talk about,
you know, the things that make us take the things
(07:17):
that keep us up at night, and just talking about
you know, what really gives us passion in terms of
healthcare and lifting up other people's stories, because that was
that was also the other piece. We're like, you know what,
if we're in this boat, we know other people are
in this boat, but we want to also share stories
and empower other people to tell their stories. So that
was kind of the impetus behind the Greeners podcast. And
(07:38):
and here we are today.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
I don't even know. I don't know what happened to
January something just like boof.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
And all of a sudden, we're just like number one,
number two Apple podcasts Medicine.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
We're like, what happened?
Speaker 5 (07:49):
What do we do differently? But I think it's it's
just I think it's so important to share your stories
and lift other people's stories up.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yes, and this is a beauty of podcasting and I
I mean anybody that's on the fence. I'll tell you,
I'm looking at three of us, and our lives have
changed dramatically from being from being putting ourselves out there
for real in terms of you know, you know, when
you hear bullying and so forth and so forth in
(08:19):
the workplace, like what what does that look like like?
If for those that are you know, not in the
healthcare stream, maybe Sarah, I'll ask you first, like what
was that experience?
Speaker 7 (08:31):
Like, Well, I think that when we talk about bullying,
it's very covert. So it's not something where you know,
someone's yelling in your face, someone's shoving you.
Speaker 6 (08:40):
It's not like that.
Speaker 7 (08:41):
Because, as you may know, nursing is eighty to ninety
five percent women, and so when women work with other women,
and I'm not saying it's just a female only problem,
but there are certain ways that people treat each other.
And I think that in healthcare particularly, we're dealing with
pressures from a lot of different fronts.
Speaker 6 (08:58):
So we have.
Speaker 7 (08:59):
Pressures from patient, you know, from families, they expect a
lot from us. We're working with physicians, you know, they've
got things they need to do. They're write writing down orders,
we have to get them done. We're dealing with pressures
within our own teams. So whether or not your junior
or senior nurse, that kind of socially puts you on
a ladder. And so there's all these pressures building up,
(09:20):
and sometimes there's nowhere for it to go other than
each other. And so I think that sometimes that is
the issue. Not that that's acceptable, but that's what I've seen.
And in my experience, when I moved from being a
bedside nurse to nursing leadership, it actually got worse.
Speaker 6 (09:35):
I was not expecting that.
Speaker 7 (09:37):
So when women are working together in leadership, sometimes someone
is threatened by you, and rather than you know, working together,
they try the best they can to cut you down
any way they can, you know, forming alliances. I felt
like I was on an episode of Survivor, where like,
you know, it's like the last one standing wins, but
actually you don't win. Nobody wins when you work like that.
(10:00):
And so I felt that, first of all, that I
couldn't say what was happening. I didn't feel safe to
say that I was being bullied. Even if I did
feel safe, I didn't feel like there was anywhere to turn.
Speaker 6 (10:09):
I didn't know who to go to for help.
Speaker 7 (10:12):
And it's just something that is way more common than
it needs to be and something that we need to
discuss when we talk about nurses eating they're young. I
feel like nothing has changed over a number of years,
and we really wanted to blow the lid off that
and start talking about it and talk about things that
you can do to make the situation better.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Wow, and I'll tell you does saying as an outsider,
I don't know if that's fair. I mean, because I'm
not a nurse. But you see it's it's quite apparent.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
Oh so you see it too, Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Oh yeah, yeah, like there's it's it's cultural, like you'll
see the way you see it in for example, in
some of the ICUs have worked, that is that there's
an overall tension, overall animosity, and often that that bullying
is often carried into the younger staff. Younger staff feel
(11:06):
like they gotta walk on eggshell. The overall atmosphere in
the ICU is more of a restrictive one.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Everyone's just like anxious and wound up, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
It's one of the put you know, one of the
things for me personally as a taken over like as
head of the department, is to make sure that culture
is not there, that it is a positive culture, that we.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
We lift each other.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
But Amy, I'm interested to hear your perspective on like
what you like amongst your conversations, have you found is
there a way around this? Is there stuff strategies that
have you that you've found that has been effective to
try and mitigate this, or is this just something you
got to ride out.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
It's definitely something I don't think you should ride out.
I think this is this is where I talk about
calling it out when it happens, right, I think, I
think and I don't think it's just women.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I think, well, maybe i'd say.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
That, you know, women tend to be less confrontational, but
I think that you need to call it out when
it happens. So we talk about you know, mirroring or
even just like you know, talking to like having that
conversation beforehand. Right even if if it's just like, Okay,
I'm gonna approach this person because you know they have
been bullying me or they have been gaslighting me. And
(12:28):
I'd like to kind of circle back to gaslighting because
that's huge in medicine and healthcare that you know you
need to call it out. So when it happens, you
just need to be like, hold up, like what is
happening here? Or even just be like, you know, correct
your tone like that, like you know, we're we're not
we're not parent and child. You're not yelling at me.
You're not talking to me like that. You wouldn't talk
(12:50):
to your dog like that, So why are you talking
or treating me like that? And I think I think
more people have to pull people aside or even just
right there in the moment, like I said, just say, hey,
this is actually not acceptable behavior. You have to model
what you expect from other people. If you expect to
be treated with respect, then you need to treat other
people with respect. I think this is not immune to nursing.
(13:13):
And just like I wanted to circle back to gaslighting,
that's the other one that I see a lot in healthcare,
in nursing leadership as well, where it is they you know,
i'd say that we're all highly intelligent people. Right, you're
a physician, we're nurses with advanced degree, so we both
have our master's degree. And I would say that we're
intelligent people.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
But it's always when when you start.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
To question your ability in terms of your intelligence, in
terms of what you know in terms of your expertise,
and the person who's making you question that is belittling
you in some way, shape or form, or they're you know,
maybe you've sent off an email and they're like, oh no,
I actually did say that, and they're making you redo
your work or these little small, insidious things.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
That is gaslighting.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
And I think most people don't even recognize when that's happening.
They're just like, am I going crazy? Am I not
getting this right? Like I thought I knew how to
do this, but this other person is is slowly kind
of beating you down into the ground and saying, oh no,
you know, no, you got that wrong. Or even what
happened to me was I was in a meeting and
then I got called out in a meeting when the
(14:17):
person was actually wrong to put the heat on me,
and I was like like, how is this happening? And
then you know, after that, they're like, oh, you know what,
thank you for doing that. It's like, wait a minute,
this is like I didn't even want to be a
part of that, Like that was your responsibility. And I
think that happens time and time again in healthcare, that gaslighting.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
We'll be right back on Solving Healthcare Radio with Doctor.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Ka stream us live at SAGA nine sixty am dot C.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
You're listening to solveign Healthcare Radio with Doctor K and
pissed off just hearing about it. I think, I think
one of the things, and I don't know if you
guys have found this to be helpful, that when this
does happen, that having your peers, having like a colleague,
trusted person that you could lean on to say, like,
(15:37):
what the fuck? Like am I missing something here? Am
I crazy in my thinking? Because I must say, for me,
it's that's been an issue my whole career, you know,
you like, especially if you guys are moving up the chain,
you'll have more and more naysayers, you know, especially when
people like we'll talk about race as bit too, but
(15:59):
like people don't look like you, they're more, in my opinion,
they're more inclined to beat you down, whether it's guy sliding,
whether it's bullying, and so to really have that you know,
support within your circles, I think is a super important one.
Speaker 7 (16:18):
Well, I mean I think Amy and I kind of
wore each other's person when we were going through this.
Speaker 6 (16:22):
We helped each other through it.
Speaker 7 (16:24):
And just going back to the whole racism, I feel
that in my experience, the more the higher up you
move in any organization, the less diverse it becomes. So
Amy and I would be sitting in these giant leadership
meetings and would be looking around and we're one of
three or four other racialized individuals in the whole room
(16:45):
and there's one hundred people. So I really think that
adequate representation is important. We need to see people that
look like us. The image of nursing is not just
a middle aged white woman. We need to show that
we're much more diverse.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Than that hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And Amy, I would believe you would have some thoughts
on this too, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
Absolutely so, like you said, you know, it gets harder
and harder up the chain. And I think that with
myself and Sarah being kind of a little bit more
in the limelight, sometimes we catch flat for things that
we say, but we're going to stand behind them when
we know that we want to push an anti racist
agenda as well. So like for example, we did actually
say on a tweet, I'm not going to get into
(17:28):
it all together, but.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
We did say that there's a lot of white supremacy
in nursing.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
It's the same thing that Sarah is saying today, where
we're like, you know, when we go up those power
chains and we look up the hierarchy, we see that
there isn't that representation. We don't see people who look
like us in these positions of power. And then what
happens is sometimes people in those positions of power don't
like hearing that. But it doesn't matter because I think
that conversation on racism and race just in general. For
(17:57):
some people it's a new concept, but it's not a
new concept for people like yourself. Myself and Sarah, we've
been dealing with racism probably our entire lives. But sometimes
for others it is startling to hear, and then you know,
we get that backlash. But I think what I always
like to say is, you know, if it's startling to
hear and it's upsetting you, then that's some work that
you need to do introspectively on yourself.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, it's you know, it's like what you were saying
actually and.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Made me think about it when you're talking about stepping
up when you're being bullied. It's one of those things
that too when it comes to racism out and for
people to you know, not tolerated. I always say, you
need like five seconds of courage, maybe ten seconds of courage,
you see that you just get that, get that energy
and be like this is not okay, this is not okay.
(18:46):
You know, did you mean to say that? Because that
is rude as hell?
Speaker 4 (18:50):
Yeah, that hurts ye, No idea know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And uh, I think it's the same thing when you
talk about in those and you know, calling it out
in those meetings or what have you. And it's true.
I mean, it's true. It's so true what you're saying,
by the way, about being in those conference rooms looking
around that like yeah, like BYPAP community is not well represented.
And the thing I keep preaching the people that are
(19:15):
like does it matter, I'm like, yes, it matters.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Diversity matters.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
It's a super power, okay, because it increases your perspective,
It allows you to it allows you to have that
wider LANs, allows you to be more patient centric, more
more human centric. And so I couldnot agree with you
more but I guess those for those those that are
racialized that are listening, I'll argue that the stuff we're
(19:43):
talking about, the bullying, the gas lighting, the like, it's amplified.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
When you when you don't look and look like the
people around you.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So but I always, I always say, I don't know
about y'all, but you know, especially post George Floyd, it
was just that healthy reminder that you know, we need
that representation. So like, if you have that opportunity to
rise up, do it. You get a seat at the table,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
Yeah, And it's even it's even more than having a
seat right, because sometimes they give you the seat right.
Sometimes they're like, oh yeah, come come sit down, you
can sit here, but they don't allow you to talk.
So I mean, you can't just be a face. You
can't just be a figurehead. If they're going to invite
you to the table, they have to be willing to
hear what you have to say, because sometimes that is
the biggest piece that you know, they're like, Okay, we
(20:37):
want representation, we want diversity, we want that allyship, but
you need to also make sure that you're listening. You're
going to bring them to the table. It's also that
that means you're going to listen to what they actually
have to say, because what they what they're going to
be telling you is is gold.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
So I mean I think that again.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
You know, it's so important to have that representation, but
it's more than just sit there. It's actually having them listen,
do something and actually make meaningful change off of you know,
some of the things that you say and some of
the things that you bring to light in terms of
what they might not even recognize as as something being
a problem.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Amen, And you know a lot of these things that
we collectively deal with as a healthcare provider is the
gas lighting, the bullying and racism. I mean, it's COVID.
It's it's hard to believe. That's not the right way
(21:33):
to put it. There's tons of burnout right now, there's
tons of burnout. Do you guys, maybe selwas Sarah, Do
you feel like it's getting enough attention? Do you think
we were doing enough to try and address this currently
within our healthcare system?
Speaker 7 (21:49):
No? I don't think we are. I mean we're in
the fourth wave now. We've been talking about burnout since
before COVID, and with every wave, I feel like nurses
are trying to sound the alarm and nobody's listening. So
we're dealing with huge retention issues right now. It's not
a problem necessarily with recruitment, but it's more retention because
there have been studies done to find out why people
(22:11):
are leaving, and it's alarming because nurses that are in
their early to mid career are leaving. So we're not
even talking about nurses that have chosen to retire early.
People like myself, like Amy, we are young nurses, We've
got families, we should be in the prime of our careers,
and they're not just leaving the bedside, but they're choosing
to leave the profession entirely. And you know, it's a
multifaceted issue. Some of it is about pay, So we
(22:34):
talk a lot about Bill one twenty four, which, as
you know, caps the wages of nurses but not other professions.
So it's partly about pay, it's partly about the respect
that we deserve. It's also a lot about the workload.
So just because you're paying someone more but you're throwing them,
you know, ten patients at a time, it's not sustainable.
And really, I think what nurses want are just the
(22:55):
respect that we deserve, the safe workload, you know, adequate training.
We're not looking to necessarily put nurses in ICU that
haven't been given the training and they don't feel comfortable
as well. This is something maybe you could speak to.
So I think that we're looking at a lot of
different issues. And I don't even know if there's a
word for beyond burnout, but that's where a lot of
(23:15):
nurses are.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
Daily. I see posts about nurses saying I'm done. I'm leaving.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
I don't even care that I don't have a backup plan,
but I'm just done. I can't do this for a
single more day. And that's where we are right now.
I feel like nursing is in a really dark place.
Since I've been a nurse since two thousand and seven,
I feel like we're kind of at the lowest point
that I've seen so far in my career. And I
really think that the government and organizations need to make
this a priority.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
Yeah, and I would just if I could jump in there.
Like it's not even just nursing, it's the aspect of
talking about mental health, Like this is where we continue
to say mental health is health, and we talk about
having a robust universal healthcare system, but access to mental
health services are still something that many people struggle with,
and many people don't have that access to. I mean,
(24:04):
if you look at wait times right now, Like we
know that if someone wants to see a psychiatrist at
this point you need to actually go to the emergency
department and say that you're like great, like you're gravely ill,
like you're going to commit suicide or whatever. Otherwise you
have like an eight month waitlist. The other thing is
just you know, the services, the benefits that we have
(24:25):
that surround mental health are really poor. Like if I
look at my I shouldn't say hold on, I'm going
to back this up. If you look at some employment
records or some other hospitals in terms of what they
might offer for mental health services, some places offer as
little as two hundred dollars, Like what's that going to
get you? That might get you an initial assessment and
then nothing.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Right.
Speaker 5 (24:44):
That was one of the challenges that Sarah and myself had,
and we talked about that at Nauseam and just say, hey,
you know, Starbucks Canada has five thousand to ten thousand dollars.
There are companies that have larger like what are we
doing here when it comes to mental health? And for
whatever reason, I know that COVID is is this is
a huge issue. I understand, but we are not talking
(25:05):
about the mental health aspect that is going to continue
to plague people years after COVID. I imagine that there
are many people that are going to have PTSD that
have been working in these these situations and we need
to talk about mental health now.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
It's not something that we should talk about afterwards.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah, I mean I have a soft spot for this
because my wife's a psychologist, and.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
So one hundred percent agree.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Like, if we're gonna be serious about this, you want
to dress burnout and shit, how are we gonna not
have well established coverage like we call it universal health,
but show some respect for the mental side that have
not to have reasonable coverage for seeing psychologists, to being
able to support people during these tough times when they've
(25:52):
Like if we're on the theme of COVID PTSD for
seeing people die alone having crazy amount of anxiety, thinking
that you know, initially in the in the pandemic, how
worried they were about bringing COVID home when we didn't
know shit, you know, and and we're not going to
support our crew. And I mean, there's so much to
(26:14):
the burnoutside. And if I'm if I'm a decision maker,
this is where you need to invest.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Absolutely hear the voices of your people. You want retention.
It's true people are leaving left, right center. I'm looking at.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Critical care, all acute care, emergency room staff. They're leaving
like crazy, you know what I mean. And so like
think about and like listen, you know COVID aside, we're
going into winter months. We are getting an aged aged population.
They're getting younger when with the baby boomers hitting their
(26:49):
prime resource use ages, you know what I mean. So like,
what's the solution? You know what I mean, where's the support?
This needs to be, This needs to be amplified as
far as I'm concerned. I mean, it's essentially why we
started our wellness program. It was like, I'll never forget it.
Forgive me if I've repeated this story to our crew.
But I was in the ICU mid third wave, three
(27:12):
in the morning, and one of our allied health professionals
were just in tears after just having like a We're
trying to decide whether to interbate a COVID patient actually,
and just the stress of the situation started to melt,
like to start to cry, and I was like, man,
and and this this person was solid, like normally like solid,
(27:34):
you know. I'm like, man, if she's in trouble, you
know there, this is trouble, you know, like and so yeah,
I guess a long winded way of saying, absolutely agree.
The other part of I don't know if you guys
find this too. As our ICU staff, one of the
things that came across from our nurses too is a
(27:57):
lot of the like futile care, like the futil cases,
where what I mean by that is care that patients
didn't want for them, wouldn't have wanted for themselves, but
family maybe insists on them receiving it.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Like do you hear much of that or have experienced
much of that?
Speaker 7 (28:13):
Still with Sarah, I experienced that in my previous job.
So I used to be a nick you nurse and
a lot of times we get babies that are, you know,
twenty three weeks, twenty four weeks, twenty five, so just
at the edge of viability, and these parents understandably wanted
everything done for their infants. But it comes to the
point where are we causing more suffering when we know
(28:35):
that there's a very good chance that this infant isn't
going to make it, or they're going to make it
with severe disabilities. So it's a real ethical issue because
we want to do right by the parents. We want
to do everything we can, but we have the experience
and the knowledge to know that at some point it's
just you know, sometimes it's not going to have the
best outcome. So it's a challenge that I think a
(28:57):
lot of nurses' face, even if you're in differ different units.
It's it's a real struggling. You take that moral to
stress home with you and sometimes it's hard to just
put it into a box and go home.
Speaker 8 (29:08):
Right.
Speaker 6 (29:08):
We're not machines.
Speaker 7 (29:09):
We can't just box up our feelings and then you know,
go on to the next patient as though nothing's happened.
So I think it's something we need to talk about
a bit more. And you know, debrief situations. I think
that's important for teams too. When there's been a difficult
case or death, is there time to debrief to make
sure everyone's okay before we move on.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
I wholeheardly agree.
Speaker 5 (29:29):
I'm so glad you touched on that there, because like,
I think that with all of the things that's been happening,
we've totally forgot that debriefing is so important. Like, you know,
something critical has happened, people are shook. Take five minutes
to get the team together and be like all right,
let's let's have a hot debrief or even and then
even have a cold debrief, but like how.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Is everybody doing? Like what do you think we could
have done differently?
Speaker 5 (29:53):
Or or whatever whatever those questions that might be to
lead that conversation, it's so important to have. And the
other thing that you kind of brought up is we
need to talk about you know, these various different principles
in terms of futility, so like this again you know,
building nurses, I guess strength in terms of understanding ethics too, right,
(30:13):
so like the principles of autonomy and beneficence now non
malfeasants and justice and be like all right, like are
we doing the right thing today? Like should we be
doing what we're doing? Are we doing too much? Are
we doing too little? And bring in all those four
concepts and say like are we doing the best we
can for the patient? Because at the end of the day,
that's the person that we are caring for, right So
(30:34):
I mean in my in my current role, we have.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Those conversations all the time.
Speaker 5 (30:39):
So I'm in quality improvement and risk in the emergency departments,
and we do have those conversations. But again that's why
I say debriefing is hugely important, and I think that,
you know, it would be great that nurses are involved
in ethics a little bit more because I think I
think physicians tend to have a little bit more basis
in that.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
And I'll be honest, the only.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Reason I am really involved in ethics is because of
my quality work, but I think that might also help with,
you know, understanding some of the decisions that physicians may
make when when a situation like that does arise.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
We'll be right back on Solving Healthcare Radio with Doctor K.
Speaker 8 (31:14):
Out of the Night, Into the Water, It push from shore,
breaking in and the stillness of.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
The No Radio, No Problem stream is live on SAGA
nine sixty AM, dot C O.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
One AM Jewels Fast one and one dam Jewels Fast
one and the Slow Mode. You're listening to Solving Healthcare
Radio with Doctor K. Do you think it's important to
integrate the team when it comes to either these decisions
or these you know, when you're in these futile cases,
(31:58):
you know support Like I know when when like as
a nick you nurse, for example, how long you're going
to be at the bedside with that with that twenty
three week old It's going to be twelve hours right
there all day, whereas physicians are there. I don't know
what it's like in the pege world, but we're there
for you know, ten minutes, fifteen minutes.
Speaker 6 (32:21):
Rounds unless something is really going wrong.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
So like this is a completely different experience and to
get that feedback from our staff on why this might
be a concern, Like I I'll just full disclosure. Like
sometimes you know, you start a week off in the IC,
it's your first day or your second day, and then
the nurse tells walks up to me and grasps my
hand and says like, you know, like are we doing
(32:47):
the right thing right now?
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Like what's going on?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Like it might not be on my radar yet or ever,
who knows, but like the it's great to hear that
input from a colleague that's lit that is basically at
that patient side all day.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Such an important element is like creating that team teamwork.
Absolutely absolutely so listen. One thing that with with having
you guys on like as fellow podcasters, but we're also
fellow like media posse.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 6 (33:29):
You're a small group virtual Hi five.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Ye high five.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
And I don't even know where to start. I'm trying
to be not controversial. What's the push for you guys
to do the stuff on mainstream media?
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Like what what fuels you to do that?
Speaker 5 (33:51):
I'm going to jump in with that one. What fuels
me to do this? And and then Sarah, you throw
in your perspective is there are not a lot of
people that look like me in the media. There are
not a lot of nurses that will come out and
speak openly in the media, but we're willing to do it.
So I think that again, that's that representation, right, And
I think that it's important to share our perspective, like
(34:13):
nurses have perspective. I think that one of the things
that I'm worried about and what I'm seeing is, you know,
we're hearing stories of anti vax nurses, nurses that don't
believe in the science, nurses that are going through these
rallies and like, Okay, you know what, that's not all
of us. Let me share a different perspective. And also
just to show that, you know, I think there's there's
(34:35):
there's a disillusion around what nurses do, not in the
in the public's eye, in various different forms of you know,
just the media, and I think we want to show
a different side, Like nurses are highly intelligent. We have
the ability to critically analyze information, research and talk about
evidence based procedures. Like I said, myself and Sarah, we
(34:57):
both have our master's degree. I have my master's degree
nursing and I have my master's degree in women's health.
We have the ability to talk about these things. And
there aren't a lot of nurses that come out and
talk to the media. So we're just like, hey, you
know what, we're going to do this thing. We're going
to change the minds out there. We're trying to change
the image of nursing.
Speaker 8 (35:14):
Right.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
I think people think that, you know, we're supposed to
be at the bedside, We're supposed to be quiet, we're
supposed to be subservient.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
We're supposed to do what the doctors tell us to do.
Speaker 5 (35:24):
We do do that, but we do that and ten
times more, and we need to show we need to
show out for our profession.
Speaker 6 (35:30):
Yeah, and I want to role model the change that
I would like to see.
Speaker 7 (35:33):
I want more nurses to be in the media and
be feeling for you, to say what's on their minds.
When we go through nursing school, and maybe this is
similar for medical school too, We're always taught to care
for patients, we're taught to advocate for our patients. We're
never taught to practice self care or advocate for ourselves.
I think a lot of nurses don't even know what
that looks like. And I read a study recently that
said in the media and when they're writing about healthcare,
(35:57):
nurses are only quoted two percent in the time. I'm
two percent, and this has actually gone down in recent years.
It used to be four percent. So we really need
to flip this on its head. And I think part
of it is that when the media is looking for
an opinion on healthcare, they most often go to physicians.
But the other part of it is just the silencing
and the fear that nurses feel when they're asked to speak,
(36:20):
and we need to change that as well. We need
to let nurses know it's okay to speak up. You're
not revealing confidential patient information, you're not speaking badly on
a particular organization or an individual, then it's okay to
talk about general issues that affect nurses in healthcare. And
I think for myself, I thought the world was going
to end the first day I did a live media interview.
Speaker 6 (36:42):
It takes practice, you know, like all these.
Speaker 7 (36:44):
Things could go wrong, but think about all the things
that aren't going to go wrong.
Speaker 6 (36:48):
And the more you do it, the more you get
comfortable with it.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Absolutely. One of the things that you said A maybe
I want to elaborate on do you think twenty twenty one,
I don't want to be leading I I'm already being
it's too late.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
You think you can speak in mind on mainstream media.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
You know, I think it depends. I think there's there's
The challenge is the ideas of what professionalism is, the
ideas of what is considered controversial. I think those are
the things that we're actually trying to challenge, right. I mean,
we talk about white supremacy not just in nursing, but
as an overarching form. And that's not to knock white
(37:33):
people in general, it's just talking about, you know, where
the history of some of these ideas might come and
come and translate down towards, you know, disadvantaging certain subsets
of people, and we still see this today, right, So
I think that you know, for example, I always give
this example in terms of professionalisms.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
Some people will say, oh, you know, it's.
Speaker 5 (37:51):
Not professional to have color like colors in your braids,
or it's not professional to have an afro, or it's
not professional to look a certain way, and it's like,
who defined what professionalism looks like? Who decided what a
professional conversation might look like? Who decided what is controversial
or not controversial? And if you can answer that question
(38:11):
in about you know, five whys and it boils down
to a certain subset, a group who holds power, then
that's why.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
We need to change the way we do things.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
So I've you know, I've had for example, I've been
on an interview with doctor Brian Goldman with CBC and
he's like, do you not find what you say is controversial?
And I'm like, no, we're not saying anything controversial. We're
saying things that people already are thinking but they're too
afraid to say we're talking, we're having courageous conversations about
race and about health care and about mental health. And
(38:42):
if it's controversial, then I have to ask you, like
why do you find it controversial? We're just talking about politics,
we're talking about media, We're talking about things that matter
to us. So I mean there is those challenge is
like I said, within your workplace, these policies that you
know really need to be looked at and reviewed and
ask ourselves a little bit more about more about the
(39:04):
question wise why we do things the way we do.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah, I must say, you know, like we all have
our I guess it's like a threshold for bravery. Like
for me, if it's race related, you know, let's go.
It's time to step up. If it's affecting my kids,
time to step up. There's just I just find it,
(39:31):
Like I'll be honest with you, like there's so much
that I don't express media wise because it's too dangerous.
And what I mean by dangerous is like it could
potentially threaten your career and not just like throughout your
career like oh now I'm not going to get a
professorship and whatever. No, it's like you know you're gonna
(39:52):
be on a potentially on a licensing board group saying, oh,
you know, you got to stick with message when it
comes to X y Z.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
That to me is h is the scary part.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
But but definitely at least my line in the sand,
you know, which is it's always good to have that
kind of the guide has always been like race related
content and the kids because you know, I when you know,
maybe it's the way I was raised, Maybe it's just
(40:29):
having a lot of value and justice. I I've always
been it's been important to me to stick up for
those I can't stick up for themselves. Absolutely, and that
that to me was has always been aligned.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
Yeah, And I mean I think Sarah and I don't
we don't talk about everything under the sun, like I think,
you know, we have our areas in which we feel
much more comfortable to speak on. And and like I
was saying before, there's certain hills that we'll die on,
certain things that you know, it's like, okay, that that
we're not going to engage in, right, And I think
you have to have that balance. It's just like does
it make sense for me to engage in this conversation?
(41:03):
And if it doesn't, then why would we say anything.
But you know, for example, we we have our things
that are hills.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
That we're gonna be out there and we're gonna, you know.
Speaker 5 (41:13):
Challenge the status quo. We're gonna bring We're gonna bring
that fire, bring that heat. But there's other things that
we're like, yeah, that that is not the hell we're.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Gonna die on today. Nope, not that like we see
it on Twitter.
Speaker 5 (41:23):
We're like, nope, don't keep scrolling, keep scrolling, not that
one today.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Real.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (41:29):
And I'll be the first to admit when you're in
the media, you're in.
Speaker 6 (41:32):
The public eye.
Speaker 7 (41:34):
I if someone is going to correct me on something,
I will stand to be corrected. If they're right, they're right.
I don't have to I don't have to be right
one hundred percent of the time. So I think that's
important too. If if there's new evidence or something that's
come up and you know I've misquoted something, I'm happy
to correct myself. It's not that I'm the extra on everything.
So on our podcast, if we don't know about something,
(41:55):
we bring in a guest right to talk about the
things that we don't know that much about because we
don't claim and everything and that's okay. But there are
some things that we feel that you know, we have
the knowledge and expertise to speak about, and that's what
we speak about.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
We'll be right back on Solving Healthcare radio for doctor K.
You must it's better do your job and roll up
and help me grown up. Then I take the total
the thing, hopefully it's so nuts. I take the sip
for that. Yet I want I.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
Take the hit of the stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Really streamers live at SAGA nine sixty am dot c A.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
I'll bil what israelis wrap about his job.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
By you're listening to Solve in Healthcare Radio with doctor
K one, then I do like what you said, though
I think there's been a lack of humble pie when
it comes to.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
COVID response that you know.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
There's a lot of people that they'll they'll point the
finger when you're wrong, but I have never pointed a
figure in their direction. And but I do think you know,
because you guys, I'm looking at two future future leaders.
I'd like I see it, I feel it, and I
do think this is an important aspect of leading, as
(43:16):
being humble and showing that you are a human and
then you do admit to your mistakes or miscalculations, and
and you move forward and you grow, you learn, you
fail fast if you will.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
Yeah, I mean, I mean I think I think with
myself and Sarah, even having two small kids, we know
that like sometimes we're like, nope.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
That was wrong, we messed that up. We got a business,
and I mean, I think I think that.
Speaker 5 (43:42):
That speaks to just you know, our personalities too, right,
Like I think it's okay to be wrong, and we
tell this to nursing students too, Like that's how you learn,
if you if if if you think you're right in
everything or you do everything right, then I think that's
more of the concerning aspect that it's just like, oh
I got it all sorry out It's like, yeah, that's
more concerning to us than saying, hey, you know I
haven't thought about it this way, or yeah I was wrong.
(44:04):
I got a backpedal and I got to apologize. I
think it's it's not it's not a character flawed to apologize.
So we're happy that if we mucked it up, we're like, okay,
let's let's get out there and apologize or whatever the
case may be, whatever we need to do.
Speaker 7 (44:19):
Yeah, And I think just with even starting a podcast
and being in the media. We just I don't think
there's anything overly special about myself.
Speaker 6 (44:26):
I don't know what you I mean.
Speaker 7 (44:27):
I mean, I was just willing to do it. I
just had the courage to do it. I don't think
I was, you know, the best person necessarily to have
a podcast, but we were willing to try, and we
knew it didn't have to be perfect, and we were
willing to just keep going. So if there's anyone listening
that wants to, you know, try some of the things
that we are doing, just get started. Really, that's that's
(44:47):
all you need. You need the passion, you need, you know,
the willpower and just just start.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
Yep, a microphone in your voice, that's it.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
Passion Like this.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Is one thing because I also say in medicine we
attract a lot of our in healthcare, we attract a
lot of like perfectionist type a's and stuff. At times,
you just got to do it. Yeah, I didn't know
what I was doing. I just was like, just grab
this mic, you know what I mean. It just like
went with it, and actually this might be a good
(45:22):
place to a good way to end. What has there
been any like what's been your favorite. Yeah, there's a
lot of options. Favorite either moment on the show, favorite
way that the show has changed your life, favorite way
that like like either whether it's an event, speaking, engagement,
(45:45):
opportunity that's a came about through the show that you
were like in your wildest dreams, you would never would
have guessed would have thrown down. And maybe we'll start
with Amy, because you look like you're ready to go
with someone.
Speaker 5 (45:58):
Okay, So I think it was last week, right, Sarah,
that we were tapped on by Al Jazeera News.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
That was wild.
Speaker 5 (46:06):
We're like that, We're like, how do they even like,
how do these people even find us?
Speaker 4 (46:12):
So that was wild. So we did. We did a
video with them.
Speaker 5 (46:15):
I don't even know if they've aired it because there
was there was a little bit of an issue with
the producer or someone whoever was on the show. But
the fact that they've reached out to us we sent
them our video, they want to still do work with us.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
We're like, oh my god, al Jazeera Sure, We're like
cee that next who knows? Right?
Speaker 5 (46:31):
So that's that's always the wild piece. But the one
thing that I'm actually super excited about and super proud
of it was. I actually posted this on my LinkedIn
page where I actually had I missed my master's degree convocation,
and I missed it because I had a job opportunity.
Sarah knows where I'm going with this one where I
had applied for a job and the interview fell on
(46:54):
the same day as my convocation. I remember saying, hey,
you know, I I have my convocation this day, Like,
what do you think I should do?
Speaker 4 (47:03):
Just trying to kind of get a little bit of feedback,
and they're like.
Speaker 5 (47:05):
Well, what's more important to you, like your job or
you know, going to convocation. And I was just like,
in my mind, I was like going to convocation. But
I was like, okay, you know, like I got to
be an adult, let's go.
Speaker 4 (47:17):
For this job thing. So I go to the job interview.
Speaker 5 (47:20):
It's the They're already half an hour late. They started
like the two people were coming in and out of
the room. I was like, what's going on. Then we
finally started the interview, and I was super nervous by
this time, and then there was an interruption, like another
person came into the room that they got up and
went to talk to each other, and.
Speaker 4 (47:37):
Then came back out, and I'm.
Speaker 5 (47:38):
Like, like, I've never had an interview like this ever,
And so then I was I felt a little shocked, right,
I felt a little rattle because I was like, this
is like the worst interview experience I've ever had. Long
story short, didn't get the job, but then ended up
missing convocation, right, So, and then I found out through
the grape vine that they knew I wasn't going to
get the job.
Speaker 4 (47:58):
They were they literally were just going through the motions.
Speaker 5 (48:00):
You're like, oh, you know, here are the applicants, but
we're going to just We're going to just do this anyways,
knowing full well that now I miss my convocation. So
this year, we're actually approached by UFT UFT Faculty of
Nursing to actually be the keynote speakers for this year's
twenty twenty one nursing convocation. So I'm like, you know what,
(48:22):
I didn't get to wear my gown then, but I
get to go up wear my gown, welcome in the
new class and tell them like, hur rah, you guys
got this. So I am super stoked that I get
to at least attend my graduation again.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
That is amazing. Came full circled.
Speaker 8 (48:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (48:39):
Yeah, I think for me, it's just when we get
emails or get messages from nursing students that say that
they listen to us every single week because their professors
have recommended us, And I'm like, they're recommending us because
I guess, you know, there's not a lot of Canadian
nurses really doing podcasts, so people listen to us and
(49:01):
I imagine that they're discussing us in their class or
in online forums like they're listening for podcasts. They're dissecting it,
and that is really mind blowing to me. And I
know that even other people that we know sit down
and have these listening parties, like they'll be eating pizza
or drinking wine while listening to us talk. And I
still find this so weird because you know, with podcasts
(49:22):
that you just speak into the wind and it's not
like you're speaking in front of a live audience, so
you don't get that feedback in the moment. So it's
very strange for me that people are listening to us
in this way. And also the fact that we get
to speak to so many well known guests, like we've
had doctor Brian Goldman on We're going to have a
couple big names coming up as well. We've had Kathy Crowan,
(49:42):
who's a huge nursing advocate.
Speaker 6 (49:45):
This is just I don't.
Speaker 7 (49:46):
Think we would have ever been able to do this
without the podcast as our opportunity.
Speaker 6 (49:51):
So I still find that very weird.
Speaker 7 (49:54):
And I don't know because with the pandemic, we really
haven't met anyone.
Speaker 6 (49:58):
In person, so that's also very strange when we do.
We met a listener.
Speaker 7 (50:03):
We met a listener recently and I think she said
to me, like, oh, I thought you'd be taller, and I'm.
Speaker 4 (50:07):
Like to be taller, Like, oh, TV like makes slop short.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, that is a basic I gotta tell you too.
Like once you once you know, we get closer and
closer to the real world, you'll you'll have more and
more of those situations. Like I think it's hard to
really get a grasp like most of you guys took
off during COVID. It's hard to get a grasp of
(50:33):
your reach when your circles are small right now. But
when you're travel into conferences again, seeing family, different parts
of the country, I'm sure you guys are going to
feel the love because the content is fantastic, Absolutely listen.
Let me thank you for joining the podcast, doing your
(50:55):
part to what we call changing the boogie, changing the
conference station, changing people's lenses. You know what I mean.
This is Sarah and Amy throwing down. I'm so proud
that you guys were willing to come on the show,
and I know it was three times a charm, but
I have a feeling this won't be the only time
that we talk to each other.
Speaker 7 (51:16):
Just a feeling looking forward to it amazing.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
Thanks so much, guys, Thank you.
Speaker 6 (51:22):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
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Speaker 3 (51:44):
Y'all gonna love it?
Speaker 2 (51:46):
All right, people, I hope you're feeling a little bit
more jumping your step after that episode. Thanks for listening.
Talk real soon, Peece.
Speaker 7 (51:54):
I remember seeing you when spaghetti strapping snapsack helps up
by your fat mean it.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
I was like that. Girls, Do you have.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
A man, buddy, No radio, No problem. Streams live on
Saga nine sixty am dot co
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
Saga nine sixty am or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Turned my music Ha ha, sure I do.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
I'm from the streets.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Way to welcome back wealcast Nation. We got a special episode.
We got the hosts Amy and Sarah from the Gritty
Nurses podcast and we talk about it all things related
to healthcare that has been so paramount. We talk about
burnout within healthcare, We talk about systemic racism, We talk
(00:41):
about the rules as media personality would have seen them
on CBC CP twenty four interviews with Brian Goldman. These
guys are changing the bookingy Man for real. We also
talk about podcasting a little bit and advocating for other
healthcare providers. It's so you're going to really enjoy this episode.
Before we get into it, let's jump into a word
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Last one I want mention is our twenty eight day
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So go to twenty eight day Reboot dot co. That's
twenty eight day Reboot dot co. All right, let's do this.
We're gonna bring you the Gritty Nurses Amy and Sarah.
(03:14):
Let's just jump on it. And we got fill podcasters
in the mix. Sarah Amy, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Right, you better be man. We got the Gritty Nurse
podcast crew.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
And it's always fun getting other podcasters on board because
then like they're usually the easiest interview no pressure, because
you know, you know what it's like to be on
the interviewing side. So I'm so appreciative and like, this
was a long time coming. We've been connecting on social media,
y'all jumped on the solid wellness train. So yeah, thank you.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
So much for doing this, thank you for having us.
Like you said, we've been we've been waiting, so we're let.
Speaker 6 (04:00):
There are times that jar, and we got it.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
This time, it's going to be all yeah, I feel it,
I feel it, I feel it. Okay, I'm gonna start
with Sarah the Gritty Nurse, very successful podcast, but I
got to ask, like, how did this come to be?
How did you guys develop this super amazing show?
Speaker 7 (04:21):
You know, I think it was really a long time coming.
A lot of times people think that we had this
aha moment where we're like, let's start a podcast, but
I think really it's just a culmination of our experiences
in healthcare. So being nurses, being woman, we've experienced a
lot of challenges in our careers, and I think that
we really it really came to a head where Amy
(04:41):
and I worked together. So the backstory is Amy and
I have worked together in the past. We've been in
two different jobs together at two different organizations. She's like
my work wife, and we experienced a lot of bullying,
and we had some mental health struggles at one of
our organizations, and it got to the point where we
tried to bring our concerns up the chain of command
(05:02):
and it just went nowhere. So then finally Amy said
to me one day, why don't we do a podcast?
And I didn't know anything about podcasts. I didn't listen
to podcasts, and I'm like, sure, I'm game. Let's just
figure all this out. Like we had to figure out
social media, we had to figure out our audio equipment.
We really started from nothing, and so in the beginning
(05:23):
we kind of just did it as therapy. We talked
about our bullying experiences, our mental health struggles, and really
nobody was listening for a long time, and then people
started listening and it's just sort of snowball from there.
So for this whole year, for twenty twenty one, we've done,
you know, NonStop interviews.
Speaker 6 (05:40):
We're really enjoying.
Speaker 7 (05:41):
The platform that we've built, the support that we've given
to fellow nurses and healthcare providers, and we have a
lot of ideas for where we want to go next.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Wow, this is I love the story.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I let What I love about it, Sarah, is that
you know what, you took the power back. This is
one of the themes on our show is like what
can you do? What's action? You were seeing that you know,
there was that struggle where the bullying and being mistreated
and you wanted an outlet and a way to express it.
And the beautiful thing is by doing so, it's a
(06:14):
rallying cry. You know, it gets other nurses, other allied
health professionals to say, hey, we're not going to accept this.
This is this is not this is not kosher. But yeah,
and Amy, do you feel the same way? Was it
was really the push in terms of having that bullying
and the mistreatment.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Was that the heavy push for you to get this going?
Speaker 5 (06:38):
Yeah, that was that, I would say that would be
the driving force. And I feel like, you know, Sarah
and I've been through a lot together, and we knew
that other people had similar stories. We knew that other
people had shared experiences, and we're like, you know, let's
talk about ours so other people can be.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Like, yeah, that was me too.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
I I had that happen to me and you know,
I didn't know how to deal with it or or
you know, let's say it was about let's say it
was about racism. It's like, okay, we're two racialized women
having a podcast, which is which is quite unprecedent if
you look at all the other podcasts, as most of
them are like white males. So for two racialized females
to kind of come onto the scene and talk about,
you know, the things that make us take the things
(07:17):
that keep us up at night, and just talking about
you know, what really gives us passion in terms of
healthcare and lifting up other people's stories, because that was
that was also the other piece. We're like, you know what,
if we're in this boat, we know other people are
in this boat, but we want to also share stories
and empower other people to tell their stories. So that
was kind of the impetus behind the Greeners podcast. And
(07:38):
and here we are today.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
I don't even know. I don't know what happened to
January something just like boof.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
And all of a sudden, we're just like number one,
number two Apple podcasts Medicine.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
We're like, what happened?
Speaker 5 (07:49):
What do we do differently? But I think it's it's
just I think it's so important to share your stories
and lift other people's stories up.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yes, and this is a beauty of podcasting and I
I mean anybody that's on the fence. I'll tell you,
I'm looking at three of us, and our lives have
changed dramatically from being from being putting ourselves out there
for real in terms of you know, you know, when
you hear bullying and so forth and so forth in
(08:19):
the workplace, like what what does that look like like?
If for those that are you know, not in the
healthcare stream, maybe Sarah, I'll ask you first, like what
was that experience?
Speaker 7 (08:31):
Like, Well, I think that when we talk about bullying,
it's very covert. So it's not something where you know,
someone's yelling in your face, someone's shoving you.
Speaker 6 (08:40):
It's not like that.
Speaker 7 (08:41):
Because, as you may know, nursing is eighty to ninety
five percent women, and so when women work with other women,
and I'm not saying it's just a female only problem,
but there are certain ways that people treat each other.
And I think that in healthcare particularly, we're dealing with
pressures from a lot of different fronts.
Speaker 6 (08:58):
So we have.
Speaker 7 (08:59):
Pressures from patient, you know, from families, they expect a
lot from us. We're working with physicians, you know, they've
got things they need to do. They're write writing down orders,
we have to get them done. We're dealing with pressures
within our own teams. So whether or not your junior
or senior nurse, that kind of socially puts you on
a ladder. And so there's all these pressures building up,
(09:20):
and sometimes there's nowhere for it to go other than
each other. And so I think that sometimes that is
the issue. Not that that's acceptable, but that's what I've seen.
And in my experience, when I moved from being a
bedside nurse to nursing leadership, it actually got worse.
Speaker 6 (09:35):
I was not expecting that.
Speaker 7 (09:37):
So when women are working together in leadership, sometimes someone
is threatened by you, and rather than you know, working together,
they try the best they can to cut you down
any way they can, you know, forming alliances. I felt
like I was on an episode of Survivor, where like,
you know, it's like the last one standing wins, but
actually you don't win. Nobody wins when you work like that.
(10:00):
And so I felt that, first of all, that I
couldn't say what was happening. I didn't feel safe to
say that I was being bullied. Even if I did
feel safe, I didn't feel like there was anywhere to turn.
Speaker 6 (10:09):
I didn't know who to go to for help.
Speaker 7 (10:12):
And it's just something that is way more common than
it needs to be and something that we need to
discuss when we talk about nurses eating they're young. I
feel like nothing has changed over a number of years,
and we really wanted to blow the lid off that
and start talking about it and talk about things that
you can do to make the situation better.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Wow, and I'll tell you does saying as an outsider,
I don't know if that's fair. I mean, because I'm
not a nurse. But you see it's it's quite apparent.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
Oh so you see it too, Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Oh yeah, yeah, like there's it's it's cultural, like you'll
see the way you see it in for example, in
some of the ICUs have worked, that is that there's
an overall tension, overall animosity, and often that that bullying
is often carried into the younger staff. Younger staff feel
(11:06):
like they gotta walk on eggshell. The overall atmosphere in
the ICU is more of a restrictive one.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Everyone's just like anxious and wound up, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
It's one of the put you know, one of the
things for me personally as a taken over like as
head of the department, is to make sure that culture
is not there, that it is a positive culture, that we.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
We lift each other.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
But Amy, I'm interested to hear your perspective on like
what you like amongst your conversations, have you found is
there a way around this? Is there stuff strategies that
have you that you've found that has been effective to
try and mitigate this, or is this just something you
got to ride out.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
It's definitely something I don't think you should ride out.
I think this is this is where I talk about
calling it out when it happens, right, I think, I
think and I don't think it's just women.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I think, well, maybe i'd say.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
That, you know, women tend to be less confrontational, but
I think that you need to call it out when
it happens. So we talk about you know, mirroring or
even just like you know, talking to like having that
conversation beforehand. Right even if if it's just like, Okay,
I'm gonna approach this person because you know they have
been bullying me or they have been gaslighting me. And
(12:28):
I'd like to kind of circle back to gaslighting because
that's huge in medicine and healthcare that you know you
need to call it out. So when it happens, you
just need to be like, hold up, like what is
happening here? Or even just be like, you know, correct
your tone like that, like you know, we're we're not
we're not parent and child. You're not yelling at me.
You're not talking to me like that. You wouldn't talk
(12:50):
to your dog like that, So why are you talking
or treating me like that? And I think I think
more people have to pull people aside or even just
right there in the moment, like I said, just say, hey,
this is actually not acceptable behavior. You have to model
what you expect from other people. If you expect to
be treated with respect, then you need to treat other
people with respect. I think this is not immune to nursing.
(13:13):
And just like I wanted to circle back to gaslighting,
that's the other one that I see a lot in healthcare,
in nursing leadership as well, where it is they you know,
i'd say that we're all highly intelligent people. Right, you're
a physician, we're nurses with advanced degree, so we both
have our master's degree. And I would say that we're
intelligent people.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
But it's always when when you start.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
To question your ability in terms of your intelligence, in
terms of what you know in terms of your expertise,
and the person who's making you question that is belittling
you in some way, shape or form, or they're you know,
maybe you've sent off an email and they're like, oh no,
I actually did say that, and they're making you redo
your work or these little small, insidious things.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
That is gaslighting.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
And I think most people don't even recognize when that's happening.
They're just like, am I going crazy? Am I not
getting this right? Like I thought I knew how to
do this, but this other person is is slowly kind
of beating you down into the ground and saying, oh no,
you know, no, you got that wrong. Or even what
happened to me was I was in a meeting and
then I got called out in a meeting when the
(14:17):
person was actually wrong to put the heat on me,
and I was like like, how is this happening? And
then you know, after that, they're like, oh, you know what,
thank you for doing that. It's like, wait a minute,
this is like I didn't even want to be a
part of that, Like that was your responsibility. And I
think that happens time and time again in healthcare, that gaslighting.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
We'll be right back on Solving Healthcare Radio with Doctor.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Ka stream us live at SAGA nine sixty am dot C.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
You're listening to solveign Healthcare Radio with Doctor K and
pissed off just hearing about it. I think, I think
one of the things, and I don't know if you
guys have found this to be helpful, that when this
does happen, that having your peers, having like a colleague,
trusted person that you could lean on to say, like,
(15:37):
what the fuck? Like am I missing something here? Am
I crazy in my thinking? Because I must say, for me,
it's that's been an issue my whole career, you know,
you like, especially if you guys are moving up the chain,
you'll have more and more naysayers, you know, especially when
people like we'll talk about race as bit too, but
(15:59):
like people don't look like you, they're more, in my opinion,
they're more inclined to beat you down, whether it's guy sliding,
whether it's bullying, and so to really have that you know,
support within your circles, I think is a super important one.
Speaker 7 (16:18):
Well, I mean I think Amy and I kind of
wore each other's person when we were going through this.
Speaker 6 (16:22):
We helped each other through it.
Speaker 7 (16:24):
And just going back to the whole racism, I feel
that in my experience, the more the higher up you
move in any organization, the less diverse it becomes. So
Amy and I would be sitting in these giant leadership
meetings and would be looking around and we're one of
three or four other racialized individuals in the whole room
(16:45):
and there's one hundred people. So I really think that
adequate representation is important. We need to see people that
look like us. The image of nursing is not just
a middle aged white woman. We need to show that
we're much more diverse.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Than that hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And Amy, I would believe you would have some thoughts
on this too, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
Absolutely so, like you said, you know, it gets harder
and harder up the chain. And I think that with
myself and Sarah being kind of a little bit more
in the limelight, sometimes we catch flat for things that
we say, but we're going to stand behind them when
we know that we want to push an anti racist
agenda as well. So like for example, we did actually
say on a tweet, I'm not going to get into
(17:28):
it all together, but.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
We did say that there's a lot of white supremacy
in nursing.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
It's the same thing that Sarah is saying today, where
we're like, you know, when we go up those power
chains and we look up the hierarchy, we see that
there isn't that representation. We don't see people who look
like us in these positions of power. And then what
happens is sometimes people in those positions of power don't
like hearing that. But it doesn't matter because I think
that conversation on racism and race just in general. For
(17:57):
some people it's a new concept, but it's not a
new concept for people like yourself. Myself and Sarah, we've
been dealing with racism probably our entire lives. But sometimes
for others it is startling to hear, and then you know,
we get that backlash. But I think what I always
like to say is, you know, if it's startling to
hear and it's upsetting you, then that's some work that
you need to do introspectively on yourself.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, it's you know, it's like what you were saying
actually and.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Made me think about it when you're talking about stepping
up when you're being bullied. It's one of those things
that too when it comes to racism out and for
people to you know, not tolerated. I always say, you
need like five seconds of courage, maybe ten seconds of courage,
you see that you just get that, get that energy
and be like this is not okay, this is not okay.
(18:46):
You know, did you mean to say that? Because that
is rude as hell?
Speaker 4 (18:50):
Yeah, that hurts ye, No idea know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And uh, I think it's the same thing when you
talk about in those and you know, calling it out
in those meetings or what have you. And it's true.
I mean, it's true. It's so true what you're saying,
by the way, about being in those conference rooms looking
around that like yeah, like BYPAP community is not well represented.
And the thing I keep preaching the people that are
(19:15):
like does it matter, I'm like, yes, it matters.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Diversity matters.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
It's a super power, okay, because it increases your perspective,
It allows you to it allows you to have that
wider LANs, allows you to be more patient centric, more
more human centric. And so I couldnot agree with you
more but I guess those for those those that are
racialized that are listening, I'll argue that the stuff we're
(19:43):
talking about, the bullying, the gas lighting, the like, it's amplified.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
When you when you don't look and look like the
people around you.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So but I always, I always say, I don't know
about y'all, but you know, especially post George Floyd, it
was just that healthy reminder that you know, we need
that representation. So like, if you have that opportunity to
rise up, do it. You get a seat at the table,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
Yeah, And it's even it's even more than having a
seat right, because sometimes they give you the seat right.
Sometimes they're like, oh yeah, come come sit down, you
can sit here, but they don't allow you to talk.
So I mean, you can't just be a face. You
can't just be a figurehead. If they're going to invite
you to the table, they have to be willing to
hear what you have to say, because sometimes that is
the biggest piece that you know, they're like, Okay, we
(20:37):
want representation, we want diversity, we want that allyship, but
you need to also make sure that you're listening. You're
going to bring them to the table. It's also that
that means you're going to listen to what they actually
have to say, because what they what they're going to
be telling you is is gold.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
So I mean I think that again.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
You know, it's so important to have that representation, but
it's more than just sit there. It's actually having them listen,
do something and actually make meaningful change off of you know,
some of the things that you say and some of
the things that you bring to light in terms of
what they might not even recognize as as something being
a problem.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Amen, And you know a lot of these things that
we collectively deal with as a healthcare provider is the
gas lighting, the bullying and racism. I mean, it's COVID.
It's it's hard to believe. That's not the right way
(21:33):
to put it. There's tons of burnout right now, there's
tons of burnout. Do you guys, maybe selwas Sarah, Do
you feel like it's getting enough attention? Do you think
we were doing enough to try and address this currently
within our healthcare system?
Speaker 7 (21:49):
No? I don't think we are. I mean we're in
the fourth wave now. We've been talking about burnout since
before COVID, and with every wave, I feel like nurses
are trying to sound the alarm and nobody's listening. So
we're dealing with huge retention issues right now. It's not
a problem necessarily with recruitment, but it's more retention because
there have been studies done to find out why people
(22:11):
are leaving, and it's alarming because nurses that are in
their early to mid career are leaving. So we're not
even talking about nurses that have chosen to retire early.
People like myself, like Amy, we are young nurses, We've
got families, we should be in the prime of our careers,
and they're not just leaving the bedside, but they're choosing
to leave the profession entirely. And you know, it's a
multifaceted issue. Some of it is about pay, So we
(22:34):
talk a lot about Bill one twenty four, which, as
you know, caps the wages of nurses but not other professions.
So it's partly about pay, it's partly about the respect
that we deserve. It's also a lot about the workload.
So just because you're paying someone more but you're throwing them,
you know, ten patients at a time, it's not sustainable.
And really, I think what nurses want are just the
(22:55):
respect that we deserve, the safe workload, you know, adequate training.
We're not looking to necessarily put nurses in ICU that
haven't been given the training and they don't feel comfortable
as well. This is something maybe you could speak to.
So I think that we're looking at a lot of
different issues. And I don't even know if there's a
word for beyond burnout, but that's where a lot of
(23:15):
nurses are.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
Daily. I see posts about nurses saying I'm done. I'm leaving.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
I don't even care that I don't have a backup plan,
but I'm just done. I can't do this for a
single more day. And that's where we are right now.
I feel like nursing is in a really dark place.
Since I've been a nurse since two thousand and seven,
I feel like we're kind of at the lowest point
that I've seen so far in my career. And I
really think that the government and organizations need to make
this a priority.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
Yeah, and I would just if I could jump in there.
Like it's not even just nursing, it's the aspect of
talking about mental health, Like this is where we continue
to say mental health is health, and we talk about
having a robust universal healthcare system, but access to mental
health services are still something that many people struggle with,
and many people don't have that access to. I mean,
(24:04):
if you look at wait times right now, Like we
know that if someone wants to see a psychiatrist at
this point you need to actually go to the emergency
department and say that you're like great, like you're gravely ill,
like you're going to commit suicide or whatever. Otherwise you
have like an eight month waitlist. The other thing is
just you know, the services, the benefits that we have
(24:25):
that surround mental health are really poor. Like if I
look at my I shouldn't say hold on, I'm going
to back this up. If you look at some employment
records or some other hospitals in terms of what they
might offer for mental health services, some places offer as
little as two hundred dollars, Like what's that going to
get you? That might get you an initial assessment and
then nothing.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Right.
Speaker 5 (24:44):
That was one of the challenges that Sarah and myself had,
and we talked about that at Nauseam and just say, hey,
you know, Starbucks Canada has five thousand to ten thousand dollars.
There are companies that have larger like what are we
doing here when it comes to mental health? And for
whatever reason, I know that COVID is is this is
a huge issue. I understand, but we are not talking
(25:05):
about the mental health aspect that is going to continue
to plague people years after COVID. I imagine that there
are many people that are going to have PTSD that
have been working in these these situations and we need
to talk about mental health now.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
It's not something that we should talk about afterwards.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah, I mean I have a soft spot for this
because my wife's a psychologist, and.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
So one hundred percent agree.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Like, if we're gonna be serious about this, you want
to dress burnout and shit, how are we gonna not
have well established coverage like we call it universal health,
but show some respect for the mental side that have
not to have reasonable coverage for seeing psychologists, to being
able to support people during these tough times when they've
(25:52):
Like if we're on the theme of COVID PTSD for
seeing people die alone having crazy amount of anxiety, thinking
that you know, initially in the in the pandemic, how
worried they were about bringing COVID home when we didn't
know shit, you know, and and we're not going to
support our crew. And I mean, there's so much to
(26:14):
the burnoutside. And if I'm if I'm a decision maker,
this is where you need to invest.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Absolutely hear the voices of your people. You want retention.
It's true people are leaving left, right center. I'm looking at.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Critical care, all acute care, emergency room staff. They're leaving
like crazy, you know what I mean. And so like
think about and like listen, you know COVID aside, we're
going into winter months. We are getting an aged aged population.
They're getting younger when with the baby boomers hitting their
(26:49):
prime resource use ages, you know what I mean. So like,
what's the solution? You know what I mean, where's the support?
This needs to be, This needs to be amplified as
far as I'm concerned. I mean, it's essentially why we
started our wellness program. It was like, I'll never forget it.
Forgive me if I've repeated this story to our crew.
But I was in the ICU mid third wave, three
(27:12):
in the morning, and one of our allied health professionals
were just in tears after just having like a We're
trying to decide whether to interbate a COVID patient actually,
and just the stress of the situation started to melt,
like to start to cry, and I was like, man,
and and this this person was solid, like normally like solid,
(27:34):
you know. I'm like, man, if she's in trouble, you
know there, this is trouble, you know, like and so yeah,
I guess a long winded way of saying, absolutely agree.
The other part of I don't know if you guys
find this too. As our ICU staff, one of the
things that came across from our nurses too is a
(27:57):
lot of the like futile care, like the futil cases,
where what I mean by that is care that patients
didn't want for them, wouldn't have wanted for themselves, but
family maybe insists on them receiving it.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Like do you hear much of that or have experienced
much of that?
Speaker 7 (28:13):
Still with Sarah, I experienced that in my previous job.
So I used to be a nick you nurse and
a lot of times we get babies that are, you know,
twenty three weeks, twenty four weeks, twenty five, so just
at the edge of viability, and these parents understandably wanted
everything done for their infants. But it comes to the
point where are we causing more suffering when we know
(28:35):
that there's a very good chance that this infant isn't
going to make it, or they're going to make it
with severe disabilities. So it's a real ethical issue because
we want to do right by the parents. We want
to do everything we can, but we have the experience
and the knowledge to know that at some point it's
just you know, sometimes it's not going to have the
best outcome. So it's a challenge that I think a
(28:57):
lot of nurses' face, even if you're in differ different units.
It's it's a real struggling. You take that moral to
stress home with you and sometimes it's hard to just
put it into a box and go home.
Speaker 8 (29:08):
Right.
Speaker 6 (29:08):
We're not machines.
Speaker 7 (29:09):
We can't just box up our feelings and then you know,
go on to the next patient as though nothing's happened.
So I think it's something we need to talk about
a bit more. And you know, debrief situations. I think
that's important for teams too. When there's been a difficult
case or death, is there time to debrief to make
sure everyone's okay before we move on.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
I wholeheardly agree.
Speaker 5 (29:29):
I'm so glad you touched on that there, because like,
I think that with all of the things that's been happening,
we've totally forgot that debriefing is so important. Like, you know,
something critical has happened, people are shook. Take five minutes
to get the team together and be like all right,
let's let's have a hot debrief or even and then
even have a cold debrief, but like how.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Is everybody doing? Like what do you think we could
have done differently?
Speaker 5 (29:53):
Or or whatever whatever those questions that might be to
lead that conversation, it's so important to have. And the
other thing that you kind of brought up is we
need to talk about you know, these various different principles
in terms of futility, so like this again you know,
building nurses, I guess strength in terms of understanding ethics too, right,
(30:13):
so like the principles of autonomy and beneficence now non
malfeasants and justice and be like all right, like are
we doing the right thing today? Like should we be
doing what we're doing? Are we doing too much? Are
we doing too little? And bring in all those four
concepts and say like are we doing the best we
can for the patient? Because at the end of the day,
that's the person that we are caring for, right So
(30:34):
I mean in my in my current role, we have.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Those conversations all the time.
Speaker 5 (30:39):
So I'm in quality improvement and risk in the emergency departments,
and we do have those conversations. But again that's why
I say debriefing is hugely important, and I think that,
you know, it would be great that nurses are involved
in ethics a little bit more because I think I
think physicians tend to have a little bit more basis
in that.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
And I'll be honest, the only.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Reason I am really involved in ethics is because of
my quality work, but I think that might also help with,
you know, understanding some of the decisions that physicians may
make when when a situation like that does arise.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
We'll be right back on Solving Healthcare Radio with Doctor K.
Speaker 8 (31:14):
Out of the Night, Into the Water, It push from shore,
breaking in and the stillness of.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
The No Radio, No Problem stream is live on SAGA
nine sixty AM, dot C O.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
One AM Jewels Fast one and one dam Jewels Fast
one and the Slow Mode. You're listening to Solving Healthcare
Radio with Doctor K. Do you think it's important to
integrate the team when it comes to either these decisions
or these you know, when you're in these futile cases,
(31:58):
you know support Like I know when when like as
a nick you nurse, for example, how long you're going
to be at the bedside with that with that twenty
three week old It's going to be twelve hours right
there all day, whereas physicians are there. I don't know
what it's like in the pege world, but we're there
for you know, ten minutes, fifteen minutes.
Speaker 6 (32:21):
Rounds unless something is really going wrong.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
So like this is a completely different experience and to
get that feedback from our staff on why this might
be a concern, Like I I'll just full disclosure. Like
sometimes you know, you start a week off in the IC,
it's your first day or your second day, and then
the nurse tells walks up to me and grasps my
hand and says like, you know, like are we doing
(32:47):
the right thing right now?
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Like what's going on?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Like it might not be on my radar yet or ever,
who knows, but like the it's great to hear that
input from a colleague that's lit that is basically at
that patient side all day.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Such an important element is like creating that team teamwork.
Absolutely absolutely so listen. One thing that with with having
you guys on like as fellow podcasters, but we're also
fellow like media posse.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 6 (33:29):
You're a small group virtual Hi five.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Ye high five.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
And I don't even know where to start. I'm trying
to be not controversial. What's the push for you guys
to do the stuff on mainstream media?
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Like what what fuels you to do that?
Speaker 5 (33:51):
I'm going to jump in with that one. What fuels
me to do this? And and then Sarah, you throw
in your perspective is there are not a lot of
people that look like me in the media. There are
not a lot of nurses that will come out and
speak openly in the media, but we're willing to do it.
So I think that again, that's that representation, right, And
I think that it's important to share our perspective, like
(34:13):
nurses have perspective. I think that one of the things
that I'm worried about and what I'm seeing is, you know,
we're hearing stories of anti vax nurses, nurses that don't
believe in the science, nurses that are going through these
rallies and like, Okay, you know what, that's not all
of us. Let me share a different perspective. And also
just to show that, you know, I think there's there's
(34:35):
there's a disillusion around what nurses do, not in the
in the public's eye, in various different forms of you know,
just the media, and I think we want to show
a different side, Like nurses are highly intelligent. We have
the ability to critically analyze information, research and talk about
evidence based procedures. Like I said, myself and Sarah, we
(34:57):
both have our master's degree. I have my master's degree
nursing and I have my master's degree in women's health.
We have the ability to talk about these things. And
there aren't a lot of nurses that come out and
talk to the media. So we're just like, hey, you
know what, we're going to do this thing. We're going
to change the minds out there. We're trying to change
the image of nursing.
Speaker 8 (35:14):
Right.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
I think people think that, you know, we're supposed to
be at the bedside, We're supposed to be quiet, we're
supposed to be subservient.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
We're supposed to do what the doctors tell us to do.
Speaker 5 (35:24):
We do do that, but we do that and ten
times more, and we need to show we need to
show out for our profession.
Speaker 6 (35:30):
Yeah, and I want to role model the change that
I would like to see.
Speaker 7 (35:33):
I want more nurses to be in the media and
be feeling for you, to say what's on their minds.
When we go through nursing school, and maybe this is
similar for medical school too, We're always taught to care
for patients, we're taught to advocate for our patients. We're
never taught to practice self care or advocate for ourselves.
I think a lot of nurses don't even know what
that looks like. And I read a study recently that
said in the media and when they're writing about healthcare,
(35:57):
nurses are only quoted two percent in the time. I'm
two percent, and this has actually gone down in recent years.
It used to be four percent. So we really need
to flip this on its head. And I think part
of it is that when the media is looking for
an opinion on healthcare, they most often go to physicians.
But the other part of it is just the silencing
and the fear that nurses feel when they're asked to speak,
(36:20):
and we need to change that as well. We need
to let nurses know it's okay to speak up. You're
not revealing confidential patient information, you're not speaking badly on
a particular organization or an individual, then it's okay to
talk about general issues that affect nurses in healthcare. And
I think for myself, I thought the world was going
to end the first day I did a live media interview.
Speaker 6 (36:42):
It takes practice, you know, like all these.
Speaker 7 (36:44):
Things could go wrong, but think about all the things
that aren't going to go wrong.
Speaker 6 (36:48):
And the more you do it, the more you get
comfortable with it.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Absolutely. One of the things that you said A maybe
I want to elaborate on do you think twenty twenty one,
I don't want to be leading I I'm already being
it's too late.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
You think you can speak in mind on mainstream media.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
You know, I think it depends. I think there's there's
The challenge is the ideas of what professionalism is, the
ideas of what is considered controversial. I think those are
the things that we're actually trying to challenge, right. I mean,
we talk about white supremacy not just in nursing, but
as an overarching form. And that's not to knock white
(37:33):
people in general, it's just talking about, you know, where
the history of some of these ideas might come and
come and translate down towards, you know, disadvantaging certain subsets
of people, and we still see this today, right, So
I think that you know, for example, I always give
this example in terms of professionalisms.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
Some people will say, oh, you know, it's.
Speaker 5 (37:51):
Not professional to have color like colors in your braids,
or it's not professional to have an afro, or it's
not professional to look a certain way, and it's like,
who defined what professionalism looks like? Who decided what a
professional conversation might look like? Who decided what is controversial
or not controversial? And if you can answer that question
(38:11):
in about you know, five whys and it boils down
to a certain subset, a group who holds power, then
that's why.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
We need to change the way we do things.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
So I've you know, I've had for example, I've been
on an interview with doctor Brian Goldman with CBC and
he's like, do you not find what you say is controversial?
And I'm like, no, we're not saying anything controversial. We're
saying things that people already are thinking but they're too
afraid to say we're talking, we're having courageous conversations about
race and about health care and about mental health. And
(38:42):
if it's controversial, then I have to ask you, like
why do you find it controversial? We're just talking about politics,
we're talking about media, We're talking about things that matter
to us. So I mean there is those challenge is
like I said, within your workplace, these policies that you
know really need to be looked at and reviewed and
ask ourselves a little bit more about more about the
(39:04):
question wise why we do things the way we do.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah, I must say, you know, like we all have
our I guess it's like a threshold for bravery. Like
for me, if it's race related, you know, let's go.
It's time to step up. If it's affecting my kids,
time to step up. There's just I just find it,
(39:31):
Like I'll be honest with you, like there's so much
that I don't express media wise because it's too dangerous.
And what I mean by dangerous is like it could
potentially threaten your career and not just like throughout your
career like oh now I'm not going to get a
professorship and whatever. No, it's like you know you're gonna
(39:52):
be on a potentially on a licensing board group saying, oh,
you know, you got to stick with message when it
comes to X y Z.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
That to me is h is the scary part.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
But but definitely at least my line in the sand,
you know, which is it's always good to have that
kind of the guide has always been like race related
content and the kids because you know, I when you know,
maybe it's the way I was raised, Maybe it's just
(40:29):
having a lot of value and justice. I I've always
been it's been important to me to stick up for
those I can't stick up for themselves. Absolutely, and that
that to me was has always been aligned.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
Yeah, And I mean I think Sarah and I don't
we don't talk about everything under the sun, like I think,
you know, we have our areas in which we feel
much more comfortable to speak on. And and like I
was saying before, there's certain hills that we'll die on,
certain things that you know, it's like, okay, that that
we're not going to engage in, right, And I think
you have to have that balance. It's just like does
it make sense for me to engage in this conversation?
(41:03):
And if it doesn't, then why would we say anything.
But you know, for example, we we have our things
that are hills.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
That we're gonna be out there and we're gonna, you know.
Speaker 5 (41:13):
Challenge the status quo. We're gonna bring We're gonna bring
that fire, bring that heat. But there's other things that
we're like, yeah, that that is not the hell we're.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Gonna die on today. Nope, not that like we see
it on Twitter.
Speaker 5 (41:23):
We're like, nope, don't keep scrolling, keep scrolling, not that
one today.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Real.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (41:29):
And I'll be the first to admit when you're in
the media, you're in.
Speaker 6 (41:32):
The public eye.
Speaker 7 (41:34):
I if someone is going to correct me on something,
I will stand to be corrected. If they're right, they're right.
I don't have to I don't have to be right
one hundred percent of the time. So I think that's
important too. If if there's new evidence or something that's
come up and you know I've misquoted something, I'm happy
to correct myself. It's not that I'm the extra on everything.
So on our podcast, if we don't know about something,
(41:55):
we bring in a guest right to talk about the
things that we don't know that much about because we
don't claim and everything and that's okay. But there are
some things that we feel that you know, we have
the knowledge and expertise to speak about, and that's what
we speak about.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
We'll be right back on Solving Healthcare radio for doctor K.
You must it's better do your job and roll up
and help me grown up. Then I take the total
the thing, hopefully it's so nuts. I take the sip
for that. Yet I want I.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
Take the hit of the stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Really streamers live at SAGA nine sixty am dot c A.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
I'll bil what israelis wrap about his job.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
By you're listening to Solve in Healthcare Radio with doctor
K one, then I do like what you said, though
I think there's been a lack of humble pie when
it comes to.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
COVID response that you know.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
There's a lot of people that they'll they'll point the
finger when you're wrong, but I have never pointed a
figure in their direction. And but I do think you know,
because you guys, I'm looking at two future future leaders.
I'd like I see it, I feel it, and I
do think this is an important aspect of leading, as
(43:16):
being humble and showing that you are a human and
then you do admit to your mistakes or miscalculations, and
and you move forward and you grow, you learn, you
fail fast if you will.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
Yeah, I mean, I mean I think I think with
myself and Sarah, even having two small kids, we know
that like sometimes we're like, nope.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
That was wrong, we messed that up. We got a business,
and I mean, I think I think that.
Speaker 5 (43:42):
That speaks to just you know, our personalities too, right,
Like I think it's okay to be wrong, and we
tell this to nursing students too, Like that's how you learn,
if you if if if you think you're right in
everything or you do everything right, then I think that's
more of the concerning aspect that it's just like, oh
I got it all sorry out It's like, yeah, that's
more concerning to us than saying, hey, you know I
haven't thought about it this way, or yeah I was wrong.
(44:04):
I got a backpedal and I got to apologize. I
think it's it's not it's not a character flawed to apologize.
So we're happy that if we mucked it up, we're like, okay,
let's let's get out there and apologize or whatever the
case may be, whatever we need to do.
Speaker 7 (44:19):
Yeah, And I think just with even starting a podcast
and being in the media. We just I don't think
there's anything overly special about myself.
Speaker 6 (44:26):
I don't know what you I mean.
Speaker 7 (44:27):
I mean, I was just willing to do it. I
just had the courage to do it. I don't think
I was, you know, the best person necessarily to have
a podcast, but we were willing to try, and we
knew it didn't have to be perfect, and we were
willing to just keep going. So if there's anyone listening
that wants to, you know, try some of the things
that we are doing, just get started. Really, that's that's
(44:47):
all you need. You need the passion, you need, you know,
the willpower and just just start.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
Yep, a microphone in your voice, that's it.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
Passion Like this.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Is one thing because I also say in medicine we
attract a lot of our in healthcare, we attract a
lot of like perfectionist type a's and stuff. At times,
you just got to do it. Yeah, I didn't know
what I was doing. I just was like, just grab
this mic, you know what I mean. It just like
went with it, and actually this might be a good
(45:22):
place to a good way to end. What has there
been any like what's been your favorite. Yeah, there's a
lot of options. Favorite either moment on the show, favorite
way that the show has changed your life, favorite way
that like like either whether it's an event, speaking, engagement,
(45:45):
opportunity that's a came about through the show that you
were like in your wildest dreams, you would never would
have guessed would have thrown down. And maybe we'll start
with Amy, because you look like you're ready to go
with someone.
Speaker 5 (45:58):
Okay, So I think it was last week, right, Sarah,
that we were tapped on by Al Jazeera News.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
That was wild.
Speaker 5 (46:06):
We're like that, We're like, how do they even like,
how do these people even find us?
Speaker 4 (46:12):
So that was wild. So we did. We did a
video with them.
Speaker 5 (46:15):
I don't even know if they've aired it because there
was there was a little bit of an issue with
the producer or someone whoever was on the show. But
the fact that they've reached out to us we sent
them our video, they want to still do work with us.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
We're like, oh my god, al Jazeera Sure, We're like
cee that next who knows? Right?
Speaker 5 (46:31):
So that's that's always the wild piece. But the one
thing that I'm actually super excited about and super proud
of it was. I actually posted this on my LinkedIn
page where I actually had I missed my master's degree convocation,
and I missed it because I had a job opportunity.
Sarah knows where I'm going with this one where I
had applied for a job and the interview fell on
(46:54):
the same day as my convocation. I remember saying, hey,
you know, I I have my convocation this day, Like,
what do you think I should do?
Speaker 4 (47:03):
Just trying to kind of get a little bit of feedback,
and they're like.
Speaker 5 (47:05):
Well, what's more important to you, like your job or
you know, going to convocation. And I was just like,
in my mind, I was like going to convocation. But
I was like, okay, you know, like I got to
be an adult, let's go.
Speaker 4 (47:17):
For this job thing. So I go to the job interview.
Speaker 5 (47:20):
It's the They're already half an hour late. They started
like the two people were coming in and out of
the room. I was like, what's going on. Then we
finally started the interview, and I was super nervous by
this time, and then there was an interruption, like another
person came into the room that they got up and
went to talk to each other, and.
Speaker 4 (47:37):
Then came back out, and I'm.
Speaker 5 (47:38):
Like, like, I've never had an interview like this ever,
And so then I was I felt a little shocked, right,
I felt a little rattle because I was like, this
is like the worst interview experience I've ever had. Long
story short, didn't get the job, but then ended up
missing convocation, right, So, and then I found out through
the grape vine that they knew I wasn't going to
get the job.
Speaker 4 (47:58):
They were they literally were just going through the motions.
Speaker 5 (48:00):
You're like, oh, you know, here are the applicants, but
we're going to just We're going to just do this anyways,
knowing full well that now I miss my convocation. So
this year, we're actually approached by UFT UFT Faculty of
Nursing to actually be the keynote speakers for this year's
twenty twenty one nursing convocation. So I'm like, you know what,
(48:22):
I didn't get to wear my gown then, but I
get to go up wear my gown, welcome in the
new class and tell them like, hur rah, you guys
got this. So I am super stoked that I get
to at least attend my graduation again.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
That is amazing. Came full circled.
Speaker 8 (48:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (48:39):
Yeah, I think for me, it's just when we get
emails or get messages from nursing students that say that
they listen to us every single week because their professors
have recommended us, And I'm like, they're recommending us because
I guess, you know, there's not a lot of Canadian
nurses really doing podcasts, so people listen to us and
(49:01):
I imagine that they're discussing us in their class or
in online forums like they're listening for podcasts. They're dissecting it,
and that is really mind blowing to me. And I
know that even other people that we know sit down
and have these listening parties, like they'll be eating pizza
or drinking wine while listening to us talk. And I
still find this so weird because you know, with podcasts
(49:22):
that you just speak into the wind and it's not
like you're speaking in front of a live audience, so
you don't get that feedback in the moment. So it's
very strange for me that people are listening to us
in this way. And also the fact that we get
to speak to so many well known guests, like we've
had doctor Brian Goldman on We're going to have a
couple big names coming up as well. We've had Kathy Crowan,
(49:42):
who's a huge nursing advocate.
Speaker 6 (49:45):
This is just I don't.
Speaker 7 (49:46):
Think we would have ever been able to do this
without the podcast as our opportunity.
Speaker 6 (49:51):
So I still find that very weird.
Speaker 7 (49:54):
And I don't know because with the pandemic, we really
haven't met anyone.
Speaker 6 (49:58):
In person, so that's also very strange when we do.
We met a listener.
Speaker 7 (50:03):
We met a listener recently and I think she said
to me, like, oh, I thought you'd be taller, and I'm.
Speaker 4 (50:07):
Like to be taller, Like, oh, TV like makes slop short.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, that is a basic I gotta tell you too.
Like once you once you know, we get closer and
closer to the real world, you'll you'll have more and
more of those situations. Like I think it's hard to
really get a grasp like most of you guys took
off during COVID. It's hard to get a grasp of
(50:33):
your reach when your circles are small right now. But
when you're travel into conferences again, seeing family, different parts
of the country, I'm sure you guys are going to
feel the love because the content is fantastic, Absolutely listen.
Let me thank you for joining the podcast, doing your
(50:55):
part to what we call changing the boogie, changing the
conference station, changing people's lenses. You know what I mean.
This is Sarah and Amy throwing down. I'm so proud
that you guys were willing to come on the show,
and I know it was three times a charm, but
I have a feeling this won't be the only time
that we talk to each other.
Speaker 7 (51:16):
Just a feeling looking forward to it amazing.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
Thanks so much, guys, Thank you.
Speaker 6 (51:22):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
If you enjoyed that, please leave us any comments at
Quadcast ninet nine at gmail dot com. Leave a five
star rating. Follow us on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter
at quodcast, jump on our newsletter, jump on our community
at quodcast, the subject dot calm, all things healthcare solutions
all on one site.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Y'all gonna love it?
Speaker 2 (51:46):
All right, people, I hope you're feeling a little bit
more jumping your step after that episode. Thanks for listening.
Talk real soon, Peece.
Speaker 7 (51:54):
I remember seeing you when spaghetti strapping snapsack helps up
by your fat mean it.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
I was like that. Girls, Do you have.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
A man, buddy, No radio, No problem. Streams live on
Saga nine sixty am dot co
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