July 2, 2025 • 50 mins
Hey Angels! Ready to navigate success on your terms? In this empowering episode of Quality Queen Control, Asha Christina welcomes Dr. Rachel Laryea, a trailblazing entrepreneur who went from Wall Street to asset wealth management. As a millennial Black woman and first-generation American, Dr. Laryea shares her inspiring journey and practical tips for overcoming challenges, building wealth, and thriving with authenticity. Tune in for faith-fueled wisdom to redefine success and create your own legacy!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
How can I bring the knowledge and the resources that
I acquire here to my community. Regardless of the seat
that we're in, there's something that we can do, and
it's really just the responsibility is on us to ask
ourselves that question and come up with an answer and
actually take action around it.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hey, babe, it's Asia Christina. This is quality Queen Control.
What is happening, ladies and gentlemen. Let's welcome to the show,
Doctor Rachel Laurier.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Hello. Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
First of all, we love the butter yellow moments. Okay,
it's a trend and she didn't even know it's trending.
And she's here in style, in on fashion. Okay, we
literally love that. So just a quick warm up here.
Let's start with a quick rewind. So you initially were
on Wall Street. Okay, what drew you to Wall Street?
(00:58):
And how did that journey lead you lead you to
like anthropology and like a culture based entrepreneurship track.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, so I had no idea that I would end
up in finance. I think I was perhaps the least
likely person to even think of myself on Wall Street.
It was the case, you know, I did my undergrad
at NYU, and I really thought I was going to
go to grad school.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
I thought that was my next step.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
But kind of randomly, I got recruited to work at
Goldman Sachs and I was a junior at the time,
and I had no context for it. They wanted me
to come to a sales and trading insight day as
part of the recruitment process, and I didn't really give
it that much attention. But it was really my older
brother who was in college at the time I was
(01:49):
finishing up, and he said, you should actually consider this
because it could be hugely influential for like your future
and changing the trajectory of your career.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
And so I said, all right.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So I go to the insight day and I have
no idea what they're talking about. They're talking about security,
different assets, how you trade and sell all of that,
and I just remember thinking to myself, if I can
get through the day, i'll count to win. I don't
even need to, you know, go through this recruitment process successfully.
I just felt such like a fish out of water.
(02:21):
And not to mention all the people at the recruiting day,
they were all kind of finance econ majors, and I
was a social and cultural analysis major, and so so
much of that discipline is focused on critical thinking and
how you think about how culture and societies are sustained,
so totally different than the kind of business school business
(02:42):
mindset that so many of these other students at the
recruitment day kind of just were trained in.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
And so I thought, you know, I showed up.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I gave myself kind of that moment, but I wasn't
thinking too much of it. But then they came back
babing Goldman and said, okay, want to continue interviewing you.
And at that time, they had these super days where
you'd spent a whole day interviewing a whole bunch of
different people who work at the organization.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
It was like hours worth of interviewing.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
You would do these rotations with two Goldman Sachs employees
for maybe half hour, and then you just.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Rotate, and you know, I made it through that.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Ultimately, you know, got the internship and then the full
time offer. And one of the folks who interviewed me,
who became a great mentor of mine, I was asking him,
why did.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
You guys hire me?
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Because by definition it didn't make sense right hire me?
And he told me, well, you ask really good questions,
and we really felt like the level of critical thinking
is really important regardless of if you have a finance
or ECON background. It's more so important if you're curious
and you'll interrogate the kind of spaces you're in the
processes that you see as a way to enhance the institution.
(03:53):
So that's why I got the role, because I asked questions.
And it was definitely a culture shock for me because
as I that, I had no one in my family
who came from high finance or ECON or anything like that.
Even my brother, he was a philosophy major. He just
happened to have some sense around you know, Wall Street
and finance and the opportunities in my create and so
(04:14):
I definitely felt imposter syndrome, you know, and that especially
in the internship because you know a lot of these shows,
whether it be like Industry Succession or Billions, Yeah, they
show the level of stress and anxiety. And also when
you're an intern, it's like all this pressure to get
the full time offer. It's not just about having a
ten week experience to see if finances for you, but
(04:36):
trying to compete against others to be most visible to
senior leaders to get that kind of full time offer
at then.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
So there was a lot of that.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Kind of informing my experiences well, on top of being
one of the few black people black women in the
division that I was in and wrestling with all of
that at the same time. But it also I think
showed me how for the first time, black professionals were
both critical of an economic system being capitalism, while still
(05:07):
using the tools of it to their benefit. And that
really ruptured so much of my training in undergrad which
was rooted in kind of critical race theory, the black
radical tradition that had very particular insights around how black
people participate in the economy, and I always felt like
those kind of insights were very narrow and reductive at times,
(05:29):
and so for me to be at Goldman and see
how black professionals were doing it differently, it was complicated,
it was nuanced. It gave me kind of a new
perception about how we can exist in capitalism in ways
that again our nuanced and really in service of us.
And so that's what then kind of got me back
on the trajectory for grad school. But this time I
(05:51):
had a vision for what I wanted to study and
how we use the tools of capitalism in service of
social good and service of ourselves. That would really kind
of rupture preconceived notions about how black people should relate
to capitalism.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Wow, I am so impressed. This is like so many questions.
Oh my goodness. Okay, So, speaking of that, how do
we participate in wealth building without unknowingly becoming gatekeepers or
replicators of these oppressive systems, because oftentimes we see a
(06:31):
lot of us get in certain spaces, and sometimes we
tend to gatekeep ourselves almost as though, and I'm curious
about your thoughts about this, we tend to feel like,
all right, well I've earned my keep. You need to
struggle just as much to get to where I got
or get to where I am.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So that's where I realized frameworks and definitions become really important,
because capitalism as we know it really is kind of
underwritten by so much of what you described. That kind
of individualism focused on the individual, the self. I've achieved something,
you need to be on your own to achieve it.
As well, it breeds this kind of scarcity mindset that
(07:14):
there are finite resources and so every man out for himself,
and it breeds this kind of pursuit of profitability over
everything else, because capitalism as we know it, as we
define it, is really about private ownership to enhance one
sense of profitability and access to monetary capital and access.
(07:35):
So what was interesting for me as I was kind
of just reconciling so much of the history how we
often relate to each other relate to capitalism. But then
also it was seeing this new thing around, new to
me at that time, how black people were doing it differently.
It required me to then create a framework, which is
(07:56):
the title of the book, Black Capitalists, but then also
a framework for black capitalism that really then becomes a
contender for the capitalism that we know. So black capitalism
as I define it is this kind of pragmatic theory
whereby private actors or collectives reposition themselves within the current
economic system in order to achieve excess capital, but with
(08:20):
the purpose of producing and engendering social good. So that's
the core difference. It's not just about profitability. It's also
about how can I make sure that my economic thriving
is not predicated and dependent upon your exploitation wow or
your harm in any way. And so When you have
(08:40):
that framework, and you have that sort of beliefs that
ladder up to that framework and behaviors that ladder up
to that, then you get to actually contend with the
capitalism that we know, because it's a very different thing
to be a black capitalist as I define it, versus
being a black person who participates in capitalism as you
were talking about, and you can reproduce the harm of
it and still be a black person while doing it.
(09:03):
So that becomes the core difference that people have to
reckon with because you're right, you know, as you know,
different opportunities become available to someone you kind of climb
the corporate ladder or whatever ladder it is. You might
have a sense of entitlement that, oh, I had to
earn this, so you have to do it as well.
That's a capitalist logic foras to have a black capitalist logic,
(09:26):
it's I'm going to kind of advance in a social latter.
I'm going to think about what are the tactics and
strategies to do that, and also create a way for
you to do it as well, because it's not about
how one person can compete with another. We're all trying
to get there and so that becomes the core difference.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
I love that so much. Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I hope that that is resonating with everyone, that there
is a difference between a black person that's participating in
capitalism versus what you define as a black capitalist. I
absolutely love that. Would you say, what does ethical ownership
look like to you in a capitalist system?
Speaker 1 (10:07):
That's the question, right, Yeah, because especially being an entrepreneur,
when you have a black capitalist framework, the kinds of
questions you ask yourself around ownership are different than if
you were just participating in capitalism. Because with capitalism we
talk about it's just around profitability. You're squeezing margins. You're
thinking about how can I extract the most value out
(10:30):
of the people who work for me or my employees, right,
Whereas in a black capitalist framework, it's how can I
still be profitable and create a business that's sustainable and
scalable in the long term, but also value and prioritize
the people who even create the value in the first
place for the business. So it's asking questions of how
(10:52):
do I create a culture that's not exploitative, that doesn't
create harm or reproduce it. How do I ensure that
the people that work with me feel valued for their
intrinsic value as people, not just for the output that
they create and produce. And how do I make sure
that I'm in conversation with the people who make up
(11:12):
this team that I have, because those questions are very difficult.
And when you're asking folks how they feel, how you
can create a culture and an organization that everyone can
be proud of. It's not about how you can do
work for me and I derive the value from it,
but how can we all feel like this is a
valuable add to our lives. That conversation can be difficult,
(11:35):
and it does require sacrifice. I think I'm a part
of the entrepreneur or you know, when you think about
how do you create opportunities for ownership, it does require
sacrifice that if you just had a capitalist logic, it
wouldn't and so it's challenging. I think what I'm offering
is not something that's easy per se, but when you
do it in community and you really believe that my
(11:58):
striving for economic and financial security is not dependent on
your exploitation, like I mentioned, but there's also a shared
belief that I am as invested in your financial security.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
As you are. In mind.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Then we're on the same page about the sacrifices that
we'll both make because they're reciprocal at this point, and
so those become the questions and the behaviors that lat
her up to how you think about ownership within the
context of black capitalism.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Wow wow, So your academic background, as we could see,
is extremely rich.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Right, I kind of want to go a little bit
backwards here.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Tell me a little bit about your upbringing, Like what
made Rachel Rachel?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Oh, my goodness, First and foremost my mom. She immigrated
to the US in the eighties, and you know, she
was very much, you know, the daughter of two entrepreneurs,
two successful ones. But she wanted to kind of chase
this elusive America and dream. She wanted new opportunities for
her children. And so she is a hustler, you know,
(13:08):
the way she worked two jobs, seven days a week
to take care of my brother and I independently. She
really had a strong and still does a strong work
ethic and a deep belief that and she would say
it to us all the time.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Education is the way out.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And at that time, it was a way out of poverty,
it was a way out of you know, circumstances whereby
the reality is such that when especially when you're a
black and you have limited resources, people will use it
as an opportunity to strip you of your dignity. Yes,
and so for her, it was really teaching her children,
(13:44):
you know, in this American context, how you can have
the skill set and kind of the foundation and the
rootedness inside yourself to withstand racism, classism, sexism, all of
these things while ever still striving to achieve your goals.
And she was a great model for this, you know.
(14:05):
What she was able to would stand in pursuit of
and sacrificing on account of her kids to live the
life that I live now, my brother lives now. And
so it started there. But she was a tough one.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
We would wake up at four point thirty every single
morning and she would have my brother and I do chores.
We would clean the house top to bottom. The house
did not need to be clean top to bottom every day,
but it was more so about the principle I understand
work ethic, you know. And she would have us steady
before school every single morning, and sometimes she would have
(14:38):
us do these essays where we might read these like
informational pamphlets about nature or society, and she would have
us write these essays, and I can remember she would
grade them afterwards, and I never got higher than a
SEE on any single one of those essays. But I
think she knew that for me, it would like nurture
a sense of resilience and persistance in me, where the
(15:00):
next time she'd have me do an essay, I'm like,
all right, I gotta spend this much more time just
to like polish it and make sure it's, you know, good.
And so that was my childhood. That was my upbringing,
you know. And it was interesting too because I oftentimes
grew up and was in spaces of privilege that I
never felt like I had authority in them. So, for example,
(15:21):
my mom, through an affordable housing program, she won a
lottery and was able to actually purchase her first home
in what was the wealthiest county in Northern Virginia at
the time. And so this is, you know, the picturesque
white neighborhood that you can think of like white picket fences,
you know, the parent teacher associations, they're like making pies
(15:43):
and doing all that kind of stuff. And I'm having
this very Ghanaian experience in America in this wealthy, white county,
and every correlation that I was seeing to wealth was
associated with whiteness, and so it made me really question, man,
what is black wealth look like? Wouldn't be the cost
of that or the trade offs? And so when my
(16:04):
mom would say education is your way out, it's a
way to just open the aperture for the different opportunities
that you can have, the different ways in which you
can live, you know, a thriving life. And what also
would be required because I think she didn't shy away
from teaching my brother and I the realities of racism
(16:24):
in America because that was something she could not shield
us from. But it was rather how do you still
stay persistent, stay resilient despite all of that? And so
that was my upbringing in my childhood.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Wow, this is so fascinating. I am very fascinated by you.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Your mom. Your mom sounds like an amazing woman.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
She is.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Has there ever been a time where you feel like
you felt like like I want to rebel against this.
I don't want to write an essay. When did you
When do you feel like you became grateful?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Honestly, it was probably my mid twenty. Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
But now it's like I really have come to appreciate her,
and day by day I think it grows, because you know,
some things just take time, They take maturity to really
see someone and see the sacrifices that they've made, not
on account of themselves but on account of their children
to live different, better lives. And I had no sense
(17:23):
of that then because I also I didn't have her vision.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
I didn't know what that was. But now it's like, oh,
I see it, Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Wow, that's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
So, like I said, your academic background, it's it's very rich,
it's it's impressive. You were super accomplished, and I really
love that and I admire that so much. How do
you translate all of that historical and economic theory into
actionable steps for the everyday professional or entrepreneur of color.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, I think just being an anthropologist really has helped
me to take these really heady, almost esoteric ideas and
bring them down to what feels accessible but also very pragmatic.
And why that is is a key tool that we
use in the discipline of anthropology is ethnography, whereby you're
(18:19):
spending time with people, you're spending hours interviewing them or
doing participant observation kind of seeing how they live their lives,
and so your framework really becomes the evidence of by
which you've just seen people do what they do every day.
So I think that gives a sense of hopefulness but
also something to anchor to that's not just about theory
(18:41):
that we can talk about and debate, but here are examples,
you know, that we can point to of how people
do this thing that I'm offering as a way to
rethink and reposition ourselves within the economic system. And I
think the beauty of it is, you know, within the
book that I've written, in the different case studies that
I speak to, those are just examples and it gives
(19:04):
us a blueprint. But there's so many ways in which
we can practice social good within the economic system that
we're in. And so just as blackness is not a monolith,
our expressions within capitalism are also not monolithics. So we
can be an entrepreneur and thinking about how you build
business culture in an equitable way. You can be a
corporate professional and you're thinking about how can I contribute
(19:27):
to social good and the seat that I sit in
because now I work at JP Morgan Chase in wealth management,
and I'm always asking myself the question of how can
I bring the knowledge and the resources that I acquire
here to my community as well?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Wow, you know, and.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
So there's so regardless of the seat that we're in,
there's something that we can do, and it's really just
the responsibility is on us to ask ourselves that question
and come up with an answer and actually take action
around it.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Okay, So, speaking of your book, which I need.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
I need that book I will absolutely be purchasing.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So in your up and coming book, what is one
chapter or story that you think will most challenge people's
assumptions about money or even power.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Excellent question, and I'll say it's a two part There's
two stories that I think are really powerful in this sense.
One so much of this work required me to, you know,
go into the archives and spend time with the work
of historians. And while I was doing that, I learned
about examples of enslaved persons during legalized slavery in this
(20:40):
country who while slaves, they operated as bondsmen. So what
they would do is they would buy back their time
from their slave masters and use that time to then
pursue different entrepreneurial activities. And so the money that they
would collect from, you know, a business that they would pursue,
(21:02):
they would spend some of it to pay their slave
masters for buying back some of their time, and the
excess they would use to pursue in venture capital activities,
so much so that some of these bondsmen who also
doubled as slaves, would acquire enough capital monetary capital to
buy their own freedom and that of their family members
(21:26):
as well. And there are examples of that. We've probably
never seen a film that kind of speaks to that story,
but that story exists for several people. And so for me,
what was so powerful in learning that and different instances
of that is you can think about agency and empowerment
even within the context of people not even having ownership
(21:48):
of their body. But yet we're able to exist and
participate in the system of capitalism that they built, but
we're not the beneficiaries of but use the tools of
it in such a creative and innovative way to buy
back their physical freedom and that of their communities as well.
And so that example, I mean, if there's no other
(22:10):
more powerful story that for me was so kind of
inspirational and hopeful because you can think about how you
still have agency within a context where you don't even
own your own body. So how much more the moment
that we live and where more and more financial literacy
is becoming democratized. You have more black millionaires than you've
ever had in this country before. So if someone who's
(22:32):
enslaved could find ways and means to create opportunity for themselves,
create freedom for themselves and literally buy it, what can
we do in this moment together? And so the other side,
the other story, I'll say that I think was really
powerful for me, and you know, creating this work. There's
a man and everyone's anonymized, but his name is Alex
(22:54):
and he identifies as an Epha priest and very much
rooted in African traditional religions, and he works at Goldman Sachs.
And by every estimation people might say like, oh, he's
a diverse hire as a black queer man. But for him,
he kind of understands himself and his relationship to even
(23:16):
working at Goldman, as one who might consider themselves as
a spy. And he uses this language where he is
in these spaces whereby he's really thinking about how can
he kind of take back resources from these spaces and
deploy them into his community. How can he use the
system in this context Wall Street financial institutions in service
(23:40):
of himself and in service of his community, and to
do that in really compelling ways, one of which, through
a volunteer program at the firm, was able to leverage
and kind of build thousands of dollars that he was
able to channel into community organizations in his hometown. And
so you think about different examples where people will say, like,
(24:01):
I know who I am. I know these spaces aren't
for me because of the racism that informs these spaces
and makes them up. But I'm not going to shy
away from being in these spaces because I know they
also have resources that I can leverage and use for
my people. And so you see the history and the
present kind of merging in this really beautiful way about
how people think about you can be both critical of
(24:22):
a system while still use this system for your benefit.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Wow. That's profound. That is profound. Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Okay, So how do we balance the desire for legacy
and generational wealth with the need for justice and equity.
Do you think that they can coexist.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
For sure, I think that we we're skilled. We're masters
at holding things intension, We're masters at holding things in contradiction,
even because the reality is, and I say this all
the time, America is a contradiction, truly, but we navigated
every single day. That's funny, and we figure it out.
And so for capitalism to be built in such a
(25:08):
way where black people have been the creators of it,
but never the beneficiaries of it, and yet we still persist.
We live in a capitalist society and we sit with
all the contradictions of it. We navigate it, you know,
And so we ever strive for more instances or more
systems and structures that are equitable, that are just, while
(25:29):
still also pursuing inner generational wealth and legacy building all
of those things. It's like, you know, a soup that
some of it feels contradictory and complicated, but we do
it already, yeah, you know. And so so much of
this offering that I give, you know, through the book
and through the different case studies in the book is
(25:50):
really kind of focused on how we can call attention
to the fact that we sit in contradictions every day,
but then also how we can call attention to the
fact that that these systems require change and it's going
to be on us to create the change, and it's
only going to be through community that we actually realize
that change. So in this system that we live in
(26:12):
that focuses on ownership, yes, wealth generation is part of
that narrative for us, as we have access to more capital,
as I mentioned before, than we've experienced historically. But at
the same time, how do you use the tools of
capitalism that are going to create more instances of social good.
I'll give you an example. There's a man by the
(26:33):
name of Wummu Abbey. He's also someone I write about
quite a bit in the book, and he's the co
founder of an organization called e SUSU. And so what
they do is really focus on creating credit worthiness for
people who are renters. And the thinking is, if you
can pay your rent on time, you should be considered
credit worthy. And especially for their work, they really focus
(26:56):
on people who otherwise would be considered financially in these
are people who don't have a credit history of any sort.
And so what he's able to do is now starting
the business back in twenty eighteen, he's become a unicorn
business whereby they have a valuation of over a billion dollars,
and so they create a mechanism and a channel whereby
(27:20):
people are able to access credit, which is crucial when
you're thinking about wealth generation private ownership for people who
otherwise would have never had it. And this is a
scalable and sustainable business. And so you see examples of
how people do this every day. And it's not just
about kind of the B to B business to business value,
(27:41):
but also and ultimately the value that's being created for
people who otherwise might not have had channels to access
capital as wow.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
It's and this is why, like not only who you know,
but what you know. The education is so important because honestly,
I had no clue that something like that ever existed.
Having these conversations and being around other you know, successful
black people that are founders and co founders is so valuable. Honestly,
(28:13):
it's invaluable. Like I just think about the fact that
even in my own upbringing, I just see the trajectory
of certain people's lives how different it is based off
of what they had access to and access really is everything,
and that's why I am one like you where I
believe in extending you know, that table and giving someone
(28:36):
a ladder up rather than trying to be a gatekeeper
of sorts. Do you think that there's any truth to
in your journey throughout corporate feeling like there's a glass
ceiling because it seems like I don't want to assume,
but it seems like, you know, you were really really
(28:56):
blessed too, and your transition into this, you know field
and being able to that for that to transcend into it,
you know, educating, you know your you.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Know our people.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, And so I'm wondering because it feels like some
people their story feels a little bit different. I don't
know if it's because they don't know how to go
about having certain conversations on bringing certain things to the
forefront of Hey, like how do you negotiate a higher pay?
How do I get in these types of positions? How
(29:32):
do I extend more opportunities to more people that look
like me? I find that certain people they tend to
they find themselves in these blessed positions, But it still
feels like there's a ceiling, Like I know people personally
that are in that work for financial institutions, and for
(29:52):
months and months they were applying to get, you know,
internally move up, and they cannot move up into Yeah,
they literally have to make a decision to switch to
another company. What do you do in a scenario like
that where you can't even move up and you're kind
of pigeonholed where you are?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, yeah, it's so true. And I think that, especially
for black and brown people in a corporate context, you
see the glass ceiling kind of materialize itself because you
might have limited access to promotions, you have limited access
to different scopes of work that are going to give
(30:32):
you the visibility to get promoted. In the first place,
you're underpaid, you're doing excess work and undercompensated for it.
And so you see just the ways in which the
system is doing what the system does, especially in disproportionately
negatively affecting black and brown people. But I do think
that even in the midst of that, what becomes a
(30:55):
useful counter is working in community, especially with those spaces.
And I'll give you an example that first starts with theory,
but then I give you the pragmatic aspect of it.
So years ago I learned of this theory by scholar Stefano,
Hart Harvey and Fred Moulton, and they came up with
(31:15):
this concept called the undercommons, and the undercommons is this
space whereby marginalized people come together within an institutional space.
And they say they acknowledge that the institution is not
a place of enlightenment. It's a place that you are
in but not of because of the kind of systemic
inequalities that shape that institution. But at the same time,
(31:38):
you should not kind of ignore or dismiss the opportunities
that exist within that space. And so then it becomes
within that undercommon space, everybody has the same objective to
share resources, to share opportunities with one another that will
then create new material outcomes. And so while they were
(31:59):
talking about the theory and the context of an academic institution,
I applied it to and I encourage other people to
apply to all the different institutions that we're a part of. So, say,
being on Wall Street, it is riddled with so many
of the kind of ills that we talk about, and
that glass ceiling that so many of us kind of
come up against. But even still, especially for me my
(32:22):
first role at JP Morgan Chase, I really wanted to
kind of change teams. I wasn't kind of happy with
where I was and it was around that time that
I became aware of this kind of informal group that
came together an example of the undercommons, and it was
called the African Alliance, and it's an organization that has
almost a thousand people nationwide. And what we do is
(32:45):
on a monthly basis, we get together on one of
the members zooms and we'll have speakers come in, or
we'll just spend time connecting with one another learning, Oh,
what part of the banker you and what part of
the banker you and these are the challenges that I'm having.
These are some of the solutions I can offer to that.
And it was actually as I was thinking about, you know,
I wanted to pivot. I was going to go to
(33:06):
another bank, another institution, entirely because I wanted to leave.
But I met someone through the African Alliance who said, hey,
you know, the firm is a big place. There are
other opportunities here. Let me connect you with people on
my team. She connected me with a bunch of people
on her team. By the time I got to the
hiring manager, I got the job. And so you see,
(33:27):
how when you're in community and trying to address the
challenges that come, it opens the aperture for what's possible
because now I have an awesome team, I love my job,
you know, and that only became possible through this undercommon
space that existed. And so, yeah, you have those challenges
that present the glass ceiling, but it's through community that
(33:50):
you're able to navigate and create, you know, strategies together
that helps.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Us counter them.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
And it might not always be a perfect story whereby
you know, you get the resources you need to address it,
but it's like, Okay, it might not fit here, but
I can still you know, acquire monetary or human capital resources,
social capital that'll get me better position for that next
thing because I'm in community that's helping me get to
that next thing. And so I think that becomes the
(34:18):
ways in which we can really challenge and push back
against these systems that aim to really oppress us.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
You know, Wow, I have just I'm constantly just blown
away that story was so I think it personally resonated
with me because I know someone that's currently being challenged
by this and to just see that wait a second,
you experience the exact same thing and saw victory. I
also have a story I want to tell you off
(34:45):
camera too. That's amazing. Okay, So I want to kind
of switch gears to talk about faith and values and
also liberations. So a lot of my listeners are faith
based and you know, or values led. I should say,
how can we hold on to our spiritual and cultural
(35:05):
values while navigating in these industries that often reward competition
over compassion.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's that part and the art, you know,
But I think it goes back to also how I
was raised.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
You know, my mother is a woman of.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Faith, and she will always testify that God made the
difference in her life and also in the lives of
her children and her family.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
And so I was always it was always clear.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
To me from an early age that faith and getting
really rooted in a relationship with God was really important
for me. And you mentioned, you know, me being blessed
a thousand percent. I'll say it a thousand times over
that God has really made the difference in my life.
But it's also been the reason why, especially in those
difficult moments, it's like I will lean into that more
(35:57):
so than the trap I think of capitalism, the trap
of culture, the kind of dominant culture that we exist
and that really focuses on individualism and kind of prioritizing yourself.
And so for me, it's how can I show myself love,
how can I show the people.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Around me love?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And also just stand up for what's right. It's not
to say that I'm not strategic about the battles that
I take on, you know, and when I choose to
speak up, especially in corporate spaces, but I do, you know,
and I think people I've learned as I've gotten older,
people do value that and that level of authenticity because
(36:37):
you can tell very quickly if someone is swayed by
the you know, the tides right, whatever flavor of the
week is. But people do have a sense of respect
for people who will stand for something and not waiver
on that. And I think that that has been though
challenging because of all the different identities that we hold,
(36:57):
especially as a black woman, to you know, do that
work and be so strategic in that sense, and it's exhausting. Yeah,
I'm honest, but I think that's where faith really makes
a difference and kind of stands in the gap for
me sometimes when I personally don't have it, but I
know that God's got me, and time and time again
(37:19):
he always shows up. And so I think for me
that's where I take heart and how faith has made
a difference as well.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
I love that I saw a TikTok that said, look
for all the ways that God is showing you that
He's with you, And I think it really creates such
a space for gratitude within us where it's like wow,
you know, even if it's someone giving you a compliment
and maybe you weren't even having the best day, and
(37:47):
like that is just a way that God is showing wow,
like I am still with you, you know. So I
it really changed the trajectory of days where I might
not be feeling yeah, in the best mood, and I
feel like God is constantly showing me that He's with
me as well. What is the difference between success and liberation?
(38:08):
And how do we know which one we are really
building toward?
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Hmmm?
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Oh, you know, I think success that can be so
relative and so individually defined, and so it almost becomes
imperative that we have a communal definition for what success
even is to us within the black community. Is it
in our generational wealth building? Is that success or is success?
(38:39):
You know, economic security at a kind of pan African
global level for us. I think so much of the
book and my hope for it too, is around addressing
the fact that for so long we've kind of been
at a standstill within the black community, just because we've
been debating for so long where we have different economic identas.
(39:00):
Some of us are capitalists, some of us are anti capitalists,
some of us are socialists.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
We all have different beliefs.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
About how we should be doing this thing called life
and how we should be showing up in the economic
system that shapes so much of our lives. But we
have to get past that point of debate towards unified action.
And I think once we start really thinking about unified
action and the strategies that's going to allow us to
(39:26):
kind of get to a liberatory future, then we start
to understand, Okay, how do we even define success? Is
it tied to liberation? Maybe those things are one and
the same, but I think part of the issue has
been success means different things within the black community. Liberation
means different things, and certainly our ideas about how we're
going to achieve either one of those things has been
(39:48):
different too, and so I think it starts first with
having shared beliefs about what these terms even mean to
us and what we want them to mean to us
communally to then you know, kind of insight the kind
of behaviors that are allowed that will allow us to
achieve it.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Wow, Okay, So I really love how you explain that,
because success is arbitrary, and I think the definition definitely
changes from when you are achieving the big thing you
say you want to achieve, and then when you actually
(40:25):
get it, it tends to morph into something else. Like
I'm not gonna lie, I feel like, you know, obviously,
I'm sure everyone's initial definition of success is tied to
financial you know, comfort, financial abundance even, you know, And
then I think once we achieve that, then it becomes
(40:49):
more philanthropic, may I I don't know, Like what do
you think about that?
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
You know, I was doing a book event a couple
of days ago when someone asked me, when you practice
black capitalism after you've already participated in capitalism as a
black person participating in capitalism.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Wait, that's such a good question.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
You know. It was almost like an afterthought, like can
you then start thinking about social good or philanthropy after
you've achieved success, and I mean the reality is people
do it, and so yeah, it's possible, But what's really
important is how you start can really dictate how you continue.
(41:30):
And so if you are, you know, participating in a
way where success is predicated on just a kind of
capitalist orientation, you do have to ask yourself a question
of like, Okay, you might have an idea about how
you might think about liberation down the line after you've
achieved some kind of financial security and abundance, But along
(41:53):
the road to that was there harm? Was there exploitation
in that process? And how do you reconcile that? And
so that's why I think while a kind of black
capitalist posture and starting with that foundationally can be challenging because,
as I mentioned, you're asking yourself questions that you might
not have otherwise had to ask yourself, you know, operating
(42:16):
community in a way where you might have just been
kind of looking out for yourself. But that's going to
create a setup for success that starting in a kind
of capitalist posture might not, you know, especially if you
know you've achieved a level of financial security and now,
because black capitalism requires sacrifice to be in community requires
(42:38):
a level of sacrifice. It's how can I give an
order to also receive? It's not just about always receiving.
And so if you're used to maximum profitability, if you're
used to not operating in community in that way, the
sacrifice seems that much harder. And then you ask yourself,
is that something that I really want to do? And
(43:00):
it becomes them much harder. And so that's why how
you start is really important, and rooting it in community
as the beginning is also really important.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I love that you mentioned that too, because we have
to also remember we've already gone through so much trauma generationally.
We don't need to stomp on each other on the
climb up. I do remember in my research also, I
think you did something with plant ins am I correct.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
Let's I want to really.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
Talk about that.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
So tell us the story about how this whole thing,
the genesis of this plant in business that you've created.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
Long before it was the name of my business.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
It's the name of a popular plantain street food Magana,
and it's basically right plantains. You dice them up, you
marinate them.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
In spices, especially ginger.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
And you fry it to golden perfection and it's the
most delicious thing. And it was something my mom would
make for me as a kid, and she would only
do it every once in a while, so it was
a treat, right, But I loved it, and I tell
people it's my plantain love story because over the years,
as I grew up, plantains just had more significance to me.
So I moved to the city, and you know, I
(44:17):
was definitely a student on a budget, like trying to
figure everything out, and I was also transitioning into a
plant based diet at the time, and so plantains became
a meat substitute for me, a dairy substitute. So not
only were there were they cultural, it also became kind
of a dietary requirement in a lot of ways and
very budget friendly because you can get like four for
(44:39):
a dollar, right.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
And then fast forward when I started grad school and
we anthropologists, we spent a lot of time thinking about culture.
How does culture get created, how does it create identity
or ideas around identity. And I had this kind of
aha moment thinking about food as a medium to thinking
about culture. Because I can be West Africa and the
next person can be from the Caribbean, the next person
(45:02):
from Latin America. We all eat plantains, though we prepare
it differently, and so I love that as a way
to think about cultural connection, community making. And it was
also the case that I, you know, I'd go to
the grocery store and I'd go to like the vegan
ile with the little vegan sections.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Usually you don't even get a whole.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Aisle, right, And nothing was resonating with me culturally, and
so I wanted to create a business that focused on
cultural relevancy, that was familiar but still innovative. And so
in twenty eighteen I started the business and it was
really focused on creating culturally familiar, yet innovative plantain based
products that were also plant based. So plantain cookies, brownies,
(45:46):
ice cream, yes, yes, And so it very much started grassroots.
I was doing festivals and pop ups in the city
and then had a brick and mortar in downtown Brooklyn
had to stand at the Barclay Center. And now it's
all commerce and wholesale. But when I tell you about
those questions, I was asking myself as an entrepreneur, like
how do I do this thing differently? You know, where
(46:08):
it's not just about kind of squeezing as much value
as I can get from my employees and making them
feel like they're not humans or I don't treat them
as humans, or I don't see them as humans. And
so that was really important to me from the jump
where I was like, I'm not going to build a
business that's predicated exclusively on output and profitability in that sense.
(46:30):
But it is challenging for sure, and it does require
more of you than just a kind of capitalist orientation.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Wow, beautiful, beautiful explanation. And I really want to try
the plant in ice cream. I'm plant based myself, so
I was I was.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
Like, oh my gosh, I have to try this.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Okay, So wrapping this up, what is one belief that
you hope listeners walk away questioning after hearing this conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Well, you know, I think when I endeavored to write
this book, I knew that it was going to be prerogative,
you know, a book called Black Capitalist. For some we'll
have a visceral reaction to that, yes, you know, and
for good reason. You know, I think the history of
American capitalism who it has favored, who it is not
(47:20):
very intentionally and strategically disposition black people what I call
the wrong side of capitalism, and so it's hard to
imagine yourself on the right side of something when all
you've known is being on the wrong side of it.
And so for me, I think the greatest hope I
have is really kind of helping people and gently kind
of helping people think about there's more than what I've seen,
(47:43):
There's more than what I've experienced, and that it's going
to take community in order to really realize that. I
think we are a byproduct of our experiences, and so
when we're presented with new information, we can either reject
it or we can be curious about it. And I
think the hope is how can we stay curious, which
then opens the aperture for how we think about ourselves,
(48:05):
how we think about our relationship to the economy, because
it's really important to remember that we all have agency,
we all have choice in the matter, we all have
a say in the systems that define our lives. I
think for so many the idea of capitalism and the
reality of it can feel really overwhelming. It can feel
(48:26):
like it's this big system. I'm just a cog in
the engine. I have no say and no power. That's
not true, and it's often the case, people feel most
agentic when they're voting, and you'll experience that every you know,
a few years or every so often. But the reality
is we vote every single day, multiple times a day,
with our wallet, you know. And so for so many
(48:46):
black people, our relationship to capitalism has been one of consumerism,
you know, And so we vote with our dollars and
where we put our dollars and spend them. And so
if we think about that, if we really think about
the power that we do have, imagine what can happen
if we're in community with one another. When I tell
you that story about how people quite literally bought their
(49:08):
freedom during a time of legalized slavery, what can we
create for ourselves in the moment that we're living in.
And so that's why I always want to focus on
empowerment and the agency and that we do have a say,
and how we continue to operate in the system that
is done wrong by us one thousand percent, but we
can have new outcomes even still.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Beautiful ladies and gentlemen, Doctor Rachel Larier, thank you so
much for coming on Quality Queen Control. I'm going to
list all of doctor Rachel's resources down below, including her book,
Black Capitalism. I will have all her socials and everything
(49:50):
in the show notes, so make sure that you guys
check that out so that you can figure out where
to follow doctor Rachel as well as support her and
her book. I know I definitely am going to be
supporting because I have to read this book.
Speaker 4 (50:02):
I am so curious and thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
On the show.
Speaker 3 (50:05):
Thank you for having me. It's been such fun.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Yes, this was a very enriching conversation. You are truly incredible.
Thank you
How can I bring the knowledge and the resources that
I acquire here to my community. Regardless of the seat
that we're in, there's something that we can do, and
it's really just the responsibility is on us to ask
ourselves that question and come up with an answer and
actually take action around it.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hey, babe, it's Asia Christina. This is quality Queen Control.
What is happening, ladies and gentlemen. Let's welcome to the show,
Doctor Rachel Laurier.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Hello. Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
First of all, we love the butter yellow moments. Okay,
it's a trend and she didn't even know it's trending.
And she's here in style, in on fashion. Okay, we
literally love that. So just a quick warm up here.
Let's start with a quick rewind. So you initially were
on Wall Street. Okay, what drew you to Wall Street?
(00:58):
And how did that journey lead you lead you to
like anthropology and like a culture based entrepreneurship track.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, so I had no idea that I would end
up in finance. I think I was perhaps the least
likely person to even think of myself on Wall Street.
It was the case, you know, I did my undergrad
at NYU, and I really thought I was going to
go to grad school.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
I thought that was my next step.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
But kind of randomly, I got recruited to work at
Goldman Sachs and I was a junior at the time,
and I had no context for it. They wanted me
to come to a sales and trading insight day as
part of the recruitment process, and I didn't really give
it that much attention. But it was really my older
brother who was in college at the time I was
(01:49):
finishing up, and he said, you should actually consider this
because it could be hugely influential for like your future
and changing the trajectory of your career.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
And so I said, all right.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So I go to the insight day and I have
no idea what they're talking about. They're talking about security,
different assets, how you trade and sell all of that,
and I just remember thinking to myself, if I can
get through the day, i'll count to win. I don't
even need to, you know, go through this recruitment process successfully.
I just felt such like a fish out of water.
(02:21):
And not to mention all the people at the recruiting day,
they were all kind of finance econ majors, and I
was a social and cultural analysis major, and so so
much of that discipline is focused on critical thinking and
how you think about how culture and societies are sustained,
so totally different than the kind of business school business
(02:42):
mindset that so many of these other students at the
recruitment day kind of just were trained in.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
And so I thought, you know, I showed up.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I gave myself kind of that moment, but I wasn't
thinking too much of it. But then they came back
babing Goldman and said, okay, want to continue interviewing you.
And at that time, they had these super days where
you'd spent a whole day interviewing a whole bunch of
different people who work at the organization.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
It was like hours worth of interviewing.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
You would do these rotations with two Goldman Sachs employees
for maybe half hour, and then you just.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Rotate, and you know, I made it through that.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Ultimately, you know, got the internship and then the full
time offer. And one of the folks who interviewed me,
who became a great mentor of mine, I was asking him,
why did.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
You guys hire me?
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Because by definition it didn't make sense right hire me?
And he told me, well, you ask really good questions,
and we really felt like the level of critical thinking
is really important regardless of if you have a finance
or ECON background. It's more so important if you're curious
and you'll interrogate the kind of spaces you're in the
processes that you see as a way to enhance the institution.
(03:53):
So that's why I got the role, because I asked questions.
And it was definitely a culture shock for me because
as I that, I had no one in my family
who came from high finance or ECON or anything like that.
Even my brother, he was a philosophy major. He just
happened to have some sense around you know, Wall Street
and finance and the opportunities in my create and so
(04:14):
I definitely felt imposter syndrome, you know, and that especially
in the internship because you know a lot of these shows,
whether it be like Industry Succession or Billions, Yeah, they
show the level of stress and anxiety. And also when
you're an intern, it's like all this pressure to get
the full time offer. It's not just about having a
ten week experience to see if finances for you, but
(04:36):
trying to compete against others to be most visible to
senior leaders to get that kind of full time offer
at then.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
So there was a lot of that.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Kind of informing my experiences well, on top of being
one of the few black people black women in the
division that I was in and wrestling with all of
that at the same time. But it also I think
showed me how for the first time, black professionals were
both critical of an economic system being capitalism, while still
(05:07):
using the tools of it to their benefit. And that
really ruptured so much of my training in undergrad which
was rooted in kind of critical race theory, the black
radical tradition that had very particular insights around how black
people participate in the economy, and I always felt like
those kind of insights were very narrow and reductive at times,
(05:29):
and so for me to be at Goldman and see
how black professionals were doing it differently, it was complicated,
it was nuanced. It gave me kind of a new
perception about how we can exist in capitalism in ways
that again our nuanced and really in service of us.
And so that's what then kind of got me back
on the trajectory for grad school. But this time I
(05:51):
had a vision for what I wanted to study and
how we use the tools of capitalism in service of
social good and service of ourselves. That would really kind
of rupture preconceived notions about how black people should relate
to capitalism.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Wow, I am so impressed. This is like so many questions.
Oh my goodness. Okay, So, speaking of that, how do
we participate in wealth building without unknowingly becoming gatekeepers or
replicators of these oppressive systems, because oftentimes we see a
(06:31):
lot of us get in certain spaces, and sometimes we
tend to gatekeep ourselves almost as though, and I'm curious
about your thoughts about this, we tend to feel like,
all right, well I've earned my keep. You need to
struggle just as much to get to where I got
or get to where I am.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So that's where I realized frameworks and definitions become really important,
because capitalism as we know it really is kind of
underwritten by so much of what you described. That kind
of individualism focused on the individual, the self. I've achieved something,
you need to be on your own to achieve it.
As well, it breeds this kind of scarcity mindset that
(07:14):
there are finite resources and so every man out for himself,
and it breeds this kind of pursuit of profitability over
everything else, because capitalism as we know it, as we
define it, is really about private ownership to enhance one
sense of profitability and access to monetary capital and access.
(07:35):
So what was interesting for me as I was kind
of just reconciling so much of the history how we
often relate to each other relate to capitalism. But then
also it was seeing this new thing around, new to
me at that time, how black people were doing it differently.
It required me to then create a framework, which is
(07:56):
the title of the book, Black Capitalists, but then also
a framework for black capitalism that really then becomes a
contender for the capitalism that we know. So black capitalism
as I define it is this kind of pragmatic theory
whereby private actors or collectives reposition themselves within the current
economic system in order to achieve excess capital, but with
(08:20):
the purpose of producing and engendering social good. So that's
the core difference. It's not just about profitability. It's also
about how can I make sure that my economic thriving
is not predicated and dependent upon your exploitation wow or
your harm in any way. And so When you have
(08:40):
that framework, and you have that sort of beliefs that
ladder up to that framework and behaviors that ladder up
to that, then you get to actually contend with the
capitalism that we know, because it's a very different thing
to be a black capitalist as I define it, versus
being a black person who participates in capitalism as you
were talking about, and you can reproduce the harm of
it and still be a black person while doing it.
(09:03):
So that becomes the core difference that people have to
reckon with because you're right, you know, as you know,
different opportunities become available to someone you kind of climb
the corporate ladder or whatever ladder it is. You might
have a sense of entitlement that, oh, I had to
earn this, so you have to do it as well.
That's a capitalist logic foras to have a black capitalist logic,
(09:26):
it's I'm going to kind of advance in a social latter.
I'm going to think about what are the tactics and
strategies to do that, and also create a way for
you to do it as well, because it's not about
how one person can compete with another. We're all trying
to get there and so that becomes the core difference.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
I love that so much. Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I hope that that is resonating with everyone, that there
is a difference between a black person that's participating in
capitalism versus what you define as a black capitalist. I
absolutely love that. Would you say, what does ethical ownership
look like to you in a capitalist system?
Speaker 1 (10:07):
That's the question, right, Yeah, because especially being an entrepreneur,
when you have a black capitalist framework, the kinds of
questions you ask yourself around ownership are different than if
you were just participating in capitalism. Because with capitalism we
talk about it's just around profitability. You're squeezing margins. You're
thinking about how can I extract the most value out
(10:30):
of the people who work for me or my employees, right,
Whereas in a black capitalist framework, it's how can I
still be profitable and create a business that's sustainable and
scalable in the long term, but also value and prioritize
the people who even create the value in the first
place for the business. So it's asking questions of how
(10:52):
do I create a culture that's not exploitative, that doesn't
create harm or reproduce it. How do I ensure that
the people that work with me feel valued for their
intrinsic value as people, not just for the output that
they create and produce. And how do I make sure
that I'm in conversation with the people who make up
(11:12):
this team that I have, because those questions are very difficult.
And when you're asking folks how they feel, how you
can create a culture and an organization that everyone can
be proud of. It's not about how you can do
work for me and I derive the value from it,
but how can we all feel like this is a
valuable add to our lives. That conversation can be difficult,
(11:35):
and it does require sacrifice. I think I'm a part
of the entrepreneur or you know, when you think about
how do you create opportunities for ownership, it does require
sacrifice that if you just had a capitalist logic, it
wouldn't and so it's challenging. I think what I'm offering
is not something that's easy per se, but when you
do it in community and you really believe that my
(11:58):
striving for economic and financial security is not dependent on
your exploitation, like I mentioned, but there's also a shared
belief that I am as invested in your financial security.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
As you are. In mind.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Then we're on the same page about the sacrifices that
we'll both make because they're reciprocal at this point, and
so those become the questions and the behaviors that lat
her up to how you think about ownership within the
context of black capitalism.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Wow wow, So your academic background, as we could see,
is extremely rich.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Right, I kind of want to go a little bit
backwards here.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Tell me a little bit about your upbringing, Like what
made Rachel Rachel?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Oh, my goodness, First and foremost my mom. She immigrated
to the US in the eighties, and you know, she
was very much, you know, the daughter of two entrepreneurs,
two successful ones. But she wanted to kind of chase
this elusive America and dream. She wanted new opportunities for
her children. And so she is a hustler, you know,
(13:08):
the way she worked two jobs, seven days a week
to take care of my brother and I independently. She
really had a strong and still does a strong work
ethic and a deep belief that and she would say
it to us all the time.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Education is the way out.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And at that time, it was a way out of poverty,
it was a way out of you know, circumstances whereby
the reality is such that when especially when you're a
black and you have limited resources, people will use it
as an opportunity to strip you of your dignity. Yes,
and so for her, it was really teaching her children,
(13:44):
you know, in this American context, how you can have
the skill set and kind of the foundation and the
rootedness inside yourself to withstand racism, classism, sexism, all of
these things while ever still striving to achieve your goals.
And she was a great model for this, you know.
(14:05):
What she was able to would stand in pursuit of
and sacrificing on account of her kids to live the
life that I live now, my brother lives now. And
so it started there. But she was a tough one.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
We would wake up at four point thirty every single
morning and she would have my brother and I do chores.
We would clean the house top to bottom. The house
did not need to be clean top to bottom every day,
but it was more so about the principle I understand
work ethic, you know. And she would have us steady
before school every single morning, and sometimes she would have
(14:38):
us do these essays where we might read these like
informational pamphlets about nature or society, and she would have
us write these essays, and I can remember she would
grade them afterwards, and I never got higher than a
SEE on any single one of those essays. But I
think she knew that for me, it would like nurture
a sense of resilience and persistance in me, where the
(15:00):
next time she'd have me do an essay, I'm like,
all right, I gotta spend this much more time just
to like polish it and make sure it's, you know, good.
And so that was my childhood. That was my upbringing,
you know. And it was interesting too because I oftentimes
grew up and was in spaces of privilege that I
never felt like I had authority in them. So, for example,
(15:21):
my mom, through an affordable housing program, she won a
lottery and was able to actually purchase her first home
in what was the wealthiest county in Northern Virginia at
the time. And so this is, you know, the picturesque
white neighborhood that you can think of like white picket fences,
you know, the parent teacher associations, they're like making pies
(15:43):
and doing all that kind of stuff. And I'm having
this very Ghanaian experience in America in this wealthy, white county,
and every correlation that I was seeing to wealth was
associated with whiteness, and so it made me really question, man,
what is black wealth look like? Wouldn't be the cost
of that or the trade offs? And so when my
(16:04):
mom would say education is your way out, it's a
way to just open the aperture for the different opportunities
that you can have, the different ways in which you
can live, you know, a thriving life. And what also
would be required because I think she didn't shy away
from teaching my brother and I the realities of racism
(16:24):
in America because that was something she could not shield
us from. But it was rather how do you still
stay persistent, stay resilient despite all of that? And so
that was my upbringing in my childhood.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Wow, this is so fascinating. I am very fascinated by you.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Your mom. Your mom sounds like an amazing woman.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
She is.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Has there ever been a time where you feel like
you felt like like I want to rebel against this.
I don't want to write an essay. When did you
When do you feel like you became grateful?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Honestly, it was probably my mid twenty. Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
But now it's like I really have come to appreciate her,
and day by day I think it grows, because you know,
some things just take time, They take maturity to really
see someone and see the sacrifices that they've made, not
on account of themselves but on account of their children
to live different, better lives. And I had no sense
(17:23):
of that then because I also I didn't have her vision.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
I didn't know what that was. But now it's like, oh,
I see it, Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Wow, that's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
So, like I said, your academic background, it's it's very rich,
it's it's impressive. You were super accomplished, and I really
love that and I admire that so much. How do
you translate all of that historical and economic theory into
actionable steps for the everyday professional or entrepreneur of color.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, I think just being an anthropologist really has helped
me to take these really heady, almost esoteric ideas and
bring them down to what feels accessible but also very pragmatic.
And why that is is a key tool that we
use in the discipline of anthropology is ethnography, whereby you're
(18:19):
spending time with people, you're spending hours interviewing them or
doing participant observation kind of seeing how they live their lives,
and so your framework really becomes the evidence of by
which you've just seen people do what they do every day.
So I think that gives a sense of hopefulness but
also something to anchor to that's not just about theory
(18:41):
that we can talk about and debate, but here are examples,
you know, that we can point to of how people
do this thing that I'm offering as a way to
rethink and reposition ourselves within the economic system. And I
think the beauty of it is, you know, within the
book that I've written, in the different case studies that
I speak to, those are just examples and it gives
(19:04):
us a blueprint. But there's so many ways in which
we can practice social good within the economic system that
we're in. And so just as blackness is not a monolith,
our expressions within capitalism are also not monolithics. So we
can be an entrepreneur and thinking about how you build
business culture in an equitable way. You can be a
corporate professional and you're thinking about how can I contribute
(19:27):
to social good and the seat that I sit in
because now I work at JP Morgan Chase in wealth management,
and I'm always asking myself the question of how can
I bring the knowledge and the resources that I acquire
here to my community as well?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Wow, you know, and.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
So there's so regardless of the seat that we're in,
there's something that we can do, and it's really just
the responsibility is on us to ask ourselves that question
and come up with an answer and actually take action
around it.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Okay, So, speaking of your book, which I need.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
I need that book I will absolutely be purchasing.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So in your up and coming book, what is one
chapter or story that you think will most challenge people's
assumptions about money or even power.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Excellent question, and I'll say it's a two part There's
two stories that I think are really powerful in this sense.
One so much of this work required me to, you know,
go into the archives and spend time with the work
of historians. And while I was doing that, I learned
about examples of enslaved persons during legalized slavery in this
(20:40):
country who while slaves, they operated as bondsmen. So what
they would do is they would buy back their time
from their slave masters and use that time to then
pursue different entrepreneurial activities. And so the money that they
would collect from, you know, a business that they would pursue,
(21:02):
they would spend some of it to pay their slave
masters for buying back some of their time, and the
excess they would use to pursue in venture capital activities,
so much so that some of these bondsmen who also
doubled as slaves, would acquire enough capital monetary capital to
buy their own freedom and that of their family members
(21:26):
as well. And there are examples of that. We've probably
never seen a film that kind of speaks to that story,
but that story exists for several people. And so for me,
what was so powerful in learning that and different instances
of that is you can think about agency and empowerment
even within the context of people not even having ownership
(21:48):
of their body. But yet we're able to exist and
participate in the system of capitalism that they built, but
we're not the beneficiaries of but use the tools of
it in such a creative and innovative way to buy
back their physical freedom and that of their communities as well.
And so that example, I mean, if there's no other
(22:10):
more powerful story that for me was so kind of
inspirational and hopeful because you can think about how you
still have agency within a context where you don't even
own your own body. So how much more the moment
that we live and where more and more financial literacy
is becoming democratized. You have more black millionaires than you've
ever had in this country before. So if someone who's
(22:32):
enslaved could find ways and means to create opportunity for themselves,
create freedom for themselves and literally buy it, what can
we do in this moment together? And so the other side,
the other story, I'll say that I think was really
powerful for me, and you know, creating this work. There's
a man and everyone's anonymized, but his name is Alex
(22:54):
and he identifies as an Epha priest and very much
rooted in African traditional religions, and he works at Goldman Sachs.
And by every estimation people might say like, oh, he's
a diverse hire as a black queer man. But for him,
he kind of understands himself and his relationship to even
(23:16):
working at Goldman, as one who might consider themselves as
a spy. And he uses this language where he is
in these spaces whereby he's really thinking about how can
he kind of take back resources from these spaces and
deploy them into his community. How can he use the
system in this context Wall Street financial institutions in service
(23:40):
of himself and in service of his community, and to
do that in really compelling ways, one of which, through
a volunteer program at the firm, was able to leverage
and kind of build thousands of dollars that he was
able to channel into community organizations in his hometown. And
so you think about different examples where people will say, like,
(24:01):
I know who I am. I know these spaces aren't
for me because of the racism that informs these spaces
and makes them up. But I'm not going to shy
away from being in these spaces because I know they
also have resources that I can leverage and use for
my people. And so you see the history and the
present kind of merging in this really beautiful way about
how people think about you can be both critical of
(24:22):
a system while still use this system for your benefit.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Wow. That's profound. That is profound. Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Okay, So how do we balance the desire for legacy
and generational wealth with the need for justice and equity.
Do you think that they can coexist.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
For sure, I think that we we're skilled. We're masters
at holding things intension, We're masters at holding things in contradiction,
even because the reality is, and I say this all
the time, America is a contradiction, truly, but we navigated
every single day. That's funny, and we figure it out.
And so for capitalism to be built in such a
(25:08):
way where black people have been the creators of it,
but never the beneficiaries of it, and yet we still persist.
We live in a capitalist society and we sit with
all the contradictions of it. We navigate it, you know,
And so we ever strive for more instances or more
systems and structures that are equitable, that are just, while
(25:29):
still also pursuing inner generational wealth and legacy building all
of those things. It's like, you know, a soup that
some of it feels contradictory and complicated, but we do
it already, yeah, you know. And so so much of
this offering that I give, you know, through the book
and through the different case studies in the book is
(25:50):
really kind of focused on how we can call attention
to the fact that we sit in contradictions every day,
but then also how we can call attention to the
fact that that these systems require change and it's going
to be on us to create the change, and it's
only going to be through community that we actually realize
that change. So in this system that we live in
(26:12):
that focuses on ownership, yes, wealth generation is part of
that narrative for us, as we have access to more capital,
as I mentioned before, than we've experienced historically. But at
the same time, how do you use the tools of
capitalism that are going to create more instances of social good.
I'll give you an example. There's a man by the
(26:33):
name of Wummu Abbey. He's also someone I write about
quite a bit in the book, and he's the co
founder of an organization called e SUSU. And so what
they do is really focus on creating credit worthiness for
people who are renters. And the thinking is, if you
can pay your rent on time, you should be considered
credit worthy. And especially for their work, they really focus
(26:56):
on people who otherwise would be considered financially in these
are people who don't have a credit history of any sort.
And so what he's able to do is now starting
the business back in twenty eighteen, he's become a unicorn
business whereby they have a valuation of over a billion dollars,
and so they create a mechanism and a channel whereby
(27:20):
people are able to access credit, which is crucial when
you're thinking about wealth generation private ownership for people who
otherwise would have never had it. And this is a
scalable and sustainable business. And so you see examples of
how people do this every day. And it's not just
about kind of the B to B business to business value,
(27:41):
but also and ultimately the value that's being created for
people who otherwise might not have had channels to access
capital as wow.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
It's and this is why, like not only who you know,
but what you know. The education is so important because honestly,
I had no clue that something like that ever existed.
Having these conversations and being around other you know, successful
black people that are founders and co founders is so valuable. Honestly,
(28:13):
it's invaluable. Like I just think about the fact that
even in my own upbringing, I just see the trajectory
of certain people's lives how different it is based off
of what they had access to and access really is everything,
and that's why I am one like you where I
believe in extending you know, that table and giving someone
(28:36):
a ladder up rather than trying to be a gatekeeper
of sorts. Do you think that there's any truth to
in your journey throughout corporate feeling like there's a glass
ceiling because it seems like I don't want to assume,
but it seems like, you know, you were really really
(28:56):
blessed too, and your transition into this, you know field
and being able to that for that to transcend into it,
you know, educating, you know your you.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Know our people.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, And so I'm wondering because it feels like some
people their story feels a little bit different. I don't
know if it's because they don't know how to go
about having certain conversations on bringing certain things to the
forefront of Hey, like how do you negotiate a higher pay?
How do I get in these types of positions? How
(29:32):
do I extend more opportunities to more people that look
like me? I find that certain people they tend to
they find themselves in these blessed positions, But it still
feels like there's a ceiling, Like I know people personally
that are in that work for financial institutions, and for
(29:52):
months and months they were applying to get, you know,
internally move up, and they cannot move up into Yeah,
they literally have to make a decision to switch to
another company. What do you do in a scenario like
that where you can't even move up and you're kind
of pigeonholed where you are?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, yeah, it's so true. And I think that, especially
for black and brown people in a corporate context, you
see the glass ceiling kind of materialize itself because you
might have limited access to promotions, you have limited access
to different scopes of work that are going to give
(30:32):
you the visibility to get promoted. In the first place,
you're underpaid, you're doing excess work and undercompensated for it.
And so you see just the ways in which the
system is doing what the system does, especially in disproportionately
negatively affecting black and brown people. But I do think
that even in the midst of that, what becomes a
(30:55):
useful counter is working in community, especially with those spaces.
And I'll give you an example that first starts with theory,
but then I give you the pragmatic aspect of it.
So years ago I learned of this theory by scholar Stefano,
Hart Harvey and Fred Moulton, and they came up with
(31:15):
this concept called the undercommons, and the undercommons is this
space whereby marginalized people come together within an institutional space.
And they say they acknowledge that the institution is not
a place of enlightenment. It's a place that you are
in but not of because of the kind of systemic
inequalities that shape that institution. But at the same time,
(31:38):
you should not kind of ignore or dismiss the opportunities
that exist within that space. And so then it becomes
within that undercommon space, everybody has the same objective to
share resources, to share opportunities with one another that will
then create new material outcomes. And so while they were
(31:59):
talking about the theory and the context of an academic institution,
I applied it to and I encourage other people to
apply to all the different institutions that we're a part of. So, say,
being on Wall Street, it is riddled with so many
of the kind of ills that we talk about, and
that glass ceiling that so many of us kind of
come up against. But even still, especially for me my
(32:22):
first role at JP Morgan Chase, I really wanted to
kind of change teams. I wasn't kind of happy with
where I was and it was around that time that
I became aware of this kind of informal group that
came together an example of the undercommons, and it was
called the African Alliance, and it's an organization that has
almost a thousand people nationwide. And what we do is
(32:45):
on a monthly basis, we get together on one of
the members zooms and we'll have speakers come in, or
we'll just spend time connecting with one another learning, Oh,
what part of the banker you and what part of
the banker you and these are the challenges that I'm having.
These are some of the solutions I can offer to that.
And it was actually as I was thinking about, you know,
I wanted to pivot. I was going to go to
(33:06):
another bank, another institution, entirely because I wanted to leave.
But I met someone through the African Alliance who said, hey,
you know, the firm is a big place. There are
other opportunities here. Let me connect you with people on
my team. She connected me with a bunch of people
on her team. By the time I got to the
hiring manager, I got the job. And so you see,
(33:27):
how when you're in community and trying to address the
challenges that come, it opens the aperture for what's possible
because now I have an awesome team, I love my job,
you know, and that only became possible through this undercommon
space that existed. And so, yeah, you have those challenges
that present the glass ceiling, but it's through community that
(33:50):
you're able to navigate and create, you know, strategies together
that helps.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Us counter them.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
And it might not always be a perfect story whereby
you know, you get the resources you need to address it,
but it's like, Okay, it might not fit here, but
I can still you know, acquire monetary or human capital resources,
social capital that'll get me better position for that next
thing because I'm in community that's helping me get to
that next thing. And so I think that becomes the
(34:18):
ways in which we can really challenge and push back
against these systems that aim to really oppress us.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
You know, Wow, I have just I'm constantly just blown
away that story was so I think it personally resonated
with me because I know someone that's currently being challenged
by this and to just see that wait a second,
you experience the exact same thing and saw victory. I
also have a story I want to tell you off
(34:45):
camera too. That's amazing. Okay, So I want to kind
of switch gears to talk about faith and values and
also liberations. So a lot of my listeners are faith
based and you know, or values led. I should say,
how can we hold on to our spiritual and cultural
(35:05):
values while navigating in these industries that often reward competition
over compassion.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's that part and the art, you know,
But I think it goes back to also how I
was raised.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
You know, my mother is a woman of.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Faith, and she will always testify that God made the
difference in her life and also in the lives of
her children and her family.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
And so I was always it was always clear.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
To me from an early age that faith and getting
really rooted in a relationship with God was really important
for me. And you mentioned, you know, me being blessed
a thousand percent. I'll say it a thousand times over
that God has really made the difference in my life.
But it's also been the reason why, especially in those
difficult moments, it's like I will lean into that more
(35:57):
so than the trap I think of capitalism, the trap
of culture, the kind of dominant culture that we exist
and that really focuses on individualism and kind of prioritizing yourself.
And so for me, it's how can I show myself love,
how can I show the people.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Around me love?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And also just stand up for what's right. It's not
to say that I'm not strategic about the battles that
I take on, you know, and when I choose to
speak up, especially in corporate spaces, but I do, you know,
and I think people I've learned as I've gotten older,
people do value that and that level of authenticity because
(36:37):
you can tell very quickly if someone is swayed by
the you know, the tides right, whatever flavor of the
week is. But people do have a sense of respect
for people who will stand for something and not waiver
on that. And I think that that has been though
challenging because of all the different identities that we hold,
(36:57):
especially as a black woman, to you know, do that
work and be so strategic in that sense, and it's exhausting. Yeah,
I'm honest, but I think that's where faith really makes
a difference and kind of stands in the gap for
me sometimes when I personally don't have it, but I
know that God's got me, and time and time again
(37:19):
he always shows up. And so I think for me
that's where I take heart and how faith has made
a difference as well.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
I love that I saw a TikTok that said, look
for all the ways that God is showing you that
He's with you, And I think it really creates such
a space for gratitude within us where it's like wow,
you know, even if it's someone giving you a compliment
and maybe you weren't even having the best day, and
(37:47):
like that is just a way that God is showing wow,
like I am still with you, you know. So I
it really changed the trajectory of days where I might
not be feeling yeah, in the best mood, and I
feel like God is constantly showing me that He's with
me as well. What is the difference between success and liberation?
(38:08):
And how do we know which one we are really
building toward?
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Hmmm?
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Oh, you know, I think success that can be so
relative and so individually defined, and so it almost becomes
imperative that we have a communal definition for what success
even is to us within the black community. Is it
in our generational wealth building? Is that success or is success?
(38:39):
You know, economic security at a kind of pan African
global level for us. I think so much of the
book and my hope for it too, is around addressing
the fact that for so long we've kind of been
at a standstill within the black community, just because we've
been debating for so long where we have different economic identas.
(39:00):
Some of us are capitalists, some of us are anti capitalists,
some of us are socialists.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
We all have different beliefs.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
About how we should be doing this thing called life
and how we should be showing up in the economic
system that shapes so much of our lives. But we
have to get past that point of debate towards unified action.
And I think once we start really thinking about unified
action and the strategies that's going to allow us to
(39:26):
kind of get to a liberatory future, then we start
to understand, Okay, how do we even define success? Is
it tied to liberation? Maybe those things are one and
the same, but I think part of the issue has
been success means different things within the black community. Liberation
means different things, and certainly our ideas about how we're
going to achieve either one of those things has been
(39:48):
different too, and so I think it starts first with
having shared beliefs about what these terms even mean to
us and what we want them to mean to us
communally to then you know, kind of insight the kind
of behaviors that are allowed that will allow us to
achieve it.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Wow, Okay, So I really love how you explain that,
because success is arbitrary, and I think the definition definitely
changes from when you are achieving the big thing you
say you want to achieve, and then when you actually
(40:25):
get it, it tends to morph into something else. Like
I'm not gonna lie, I feel like, you know, obviously,
I'm sure everyone's initial definition of success is tied to
financial you know, comfort, financial abundance even, you know, And
then I think once we achieve that, then it becomes
(40:49):
more philanthropic, may I I don't know, Like what do
you think about that?
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
You know, I was doing a book event a couple
of days ago when someone asked me, when you practice
black capitalism after you've already participated in capitalism as a
black person participating in capitalism.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Wait, that's such a good question.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
You know. It was almost like an afterthought, like can
you then start thinking about social good or philanthropy after
you've achieved success, and I mean the reality is people
do it, and so yeah, it's possible, But what's really
important is how you start can really dictate how you continue.
(41:30):
And so if you are, you know, participating in a
way where success is predicated on just a kind of
capitalist orientation, you do have to ask yourself a question
of like, Okay, you might have an idea about how
you might think about liberation down the line after you've
achieved some kind of financial security and abundance, But along
(41:53):
the road to that was there harm? Was there exploitation
in that process? And how do you reconcile that? And
so that's why I think while a kind of black
capitalist posture and starting with that foundationally can be challenging because,
as I mentioned, you're asking yourself questions that you might
not have otherwise had to ask yourself, you know, operating
(42:16):
community in a way where you might have just been
kind of looking out for yourself. But that's going to
create a setup for success that starting in a kind
of capitalist posture might not, you know, especially if you
know you've achieved a level of financial security and now,
because black capitalism requires sacrifice to be in community requires
(42:38):
a level of sacrifice. It's how can I give an
order to also receive? It's not just about always receiving.
And so if you're used to maximum profitability, if you're
used to not operating in community in that way, the
sacrifice seems that much harder. And then you ask yourself,
is that something that I really want to do? And
(43:00):
it becomes them much harder. And so that's why how
you start is really important, and rooting it in community
as the beginning is also really important.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I love that you mentioned that too, because we have
to also remember we've already gone through so much trauma generationally.
We don't need to stomp on each other on the
climb up. I do remember in my research also, I
think you did something with plant ins am I correct.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
Let's I want to really.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
Talk about that.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
So tell us the story about how this whole thing,
the genesis of this plant in business that you've created.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
Long before it was the name of my business.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
It's the name of a popular plantain street food Magana,
and it's basically right plantains. You dice them up, you
marinate them.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
In spices, especially ginger.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
And you fry it to golden perfection and it's the
most delicious thing. And it was something my mom would
make for me as a kid, and she would only
do it every once in a while, so it was
a treat, right, But I loved it, and I tell
people it's my plantain love story because over the years,
as I grew up, plantains just had more significance to me.
So I moved to the city, and you know, I
(44:17):
was definitely a student on a budget, like trying to
figure everything out, and I was also transitioning into a
plant based diet at the time, and so plantains became
a meat substitute for me, a dairy substitute. So not
only were there were they cultural, it also became kind
of a dietary requirement in a lot of ways and
very budget friendly because you can get like four for
(44:39):
a dollar, right.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
And then fast forward when I started grad school and
we anthropologists, we spent a lot of time thinking about culture.
How does culture get created, how does it create identity
or ideas around identity. And I had this kind of
aha moment thinking about food as a medium to thinking
about culture. Because I can be West Africa and the
next person can be from the Caribbean, the next person
(45:02):
from Latin America. We all eat plantains, though we prepare
it differently, and so I love that as a way
to think about cultural connection, community making. And it was
also the case that I, you know, I'd go to
the grocery store and I'd go to like the vegan
ile with the little vegan sections.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Usually you don't even get a whole.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Aisle, right, And nothing was resonating with me culturally, and
so I wanted to create a business that focused on
cultural relevancy, that was familiar but still innovative. And so
in twenty eighteen I started the business and it was
really focused on creating culturally familiar, yet innovative plantain based
products that were also plant based. So plantain cookies, brownies,
(45:46):
ice cream, yes, yes, And so it very much started grassroots.
I was doing festivals and pop ups in the city
and then had a brick and mortar in downtown Brooklyn
had to stand at the Barclay Center. And now it's
all commerce and wholesale. But when I tell you about
those questions, I was asking myself as an entrepreneur, like
how do I do this thing differently? You know, where
(46:08):
it's not just about kind of squeezing as much value
as I can get from my employees and making them
feel like they're not humans or I don't treat them
as humans, or I don't see them as humans. And
so that was really important to me from the jump
where I was like, I'm not going to build a
business that's predicated exclusively on output and profitability in that sense.
(46:30):
But it is challenging for sure, and it does require
more of you than just a kind of capitalist orientation.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Wow, beautiful, beautiful explanation. And I really want to try
the plant in ice cream. I'm plant based myself, so
I was I was.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
Like, oh my gosh, I have to try this.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Okay, So wrapping this up, what is one belief that
you hope listeners walk away questioning after hearing this conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Well, you know, I think when I endeavored to write
this book, I knew that it was going to be prerogative,
you know, a book called Black Capitalist. For some we'll
have a visceral reaction to that, yes, you know, and
for good reason. You know, I think the history of
American capitalism who it has favored, who it is not
(47:20):
very intentionally and strategically disposition black people what I call
the wrong side of capitalism, and so it's hard to
imagine yourself on the right side of something when all
you've known is being on the wrong side of it.
And so for me, I think the greatest hope I
have is really kind of helping people and gently kind
of helping people think about there's more than what I've seen,
(47:43):
There's more than what I've experienced, and that it's going
to take community in order to really realize that. I
think we are a byproduct of our experiences, and so
when we're presented with new information, we can either reject
it or we can be curious about it. And I
think the hope is how can we stay curious, which
then opens the aperture for how we think about ourselves,
(48:05):
how we think about our relationship to the economy, because
it's really important to remember that we all have agency,
we all have choice in the matter, we all have
a say in the systems that define our lives. I
think for so many the idea of capitalism and the
reality of it can feel really overwhelming. It can feel
(48:26):
like it's this big system. I'm just a cog in
the engine. I have no say and no power. That's
not true, and it's often the case, people feel most
agentic when they're voting, and you'll experience that every you know,
a few years or every so often. But the reality
is we vote every single day, multiple times a day,
with our wallet, you know. And so for so many
(48:46):
black people, our relationship to capitalism has been one of consumerism,
you know, And so we vote with our dollars and
where we put our dollars and spend them. And so
if we think about that, if we really think about
the power that we do have, imagine what can happen
if we're in community with one another. When I tell
you that story about how people quite literally bought their
(49:08):
freedom during a time of legalized slavery, what can we
create for ourselves in the moment that we're living in.
And so that's why I always want to focus on
empowerment and the agency and that we do have a say,
and how we continue to operate in the system that
is done wrong by us one thousand percent, but we
can have new outcomes even still.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Beautiful ladies and gentlemen, Doctor Rachel Larier, thank you so
much for coming on Quality Queen Control. I'm going to
list all of doctor Rachel's resources down below, including her book,
Black Capitalism. I will have all her socials and everything
(49:50):
in the show notes, so make sure that you guys
check that out so that you can figure out where
to follow doctor Rachel as well as support her and
her book. I know I definitely am going to be
supporting because I have to read this book.
Speaker 4 (50:02):
I am so curious and thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
On the show.
Speaker 3 (50:05):
Thank you for having me. It's been such fun.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Yes, this was a very enriching conversation. You are truly incredible.
Thank you
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