September 18, 2023 • 60 mins
Are We Old Yet? Women talking about Aging.
Today on RTM, I talk with three different women all of whom are over 60 years of age and all of whom would agree that our mental health as we age has nothing to do with fashion, interior design, beauty, cooking, or the health and wellbeing of our spouses or children. So, what does it have to do with? It is about their political actions, entrepreneurship, adventures and a future that is as exciting as what they have done so far.
Ellen Woodsworth, 75, was born into activism. In 1971 she chained herself in the House of Commons for women’s right to choose and went off to cofound the Wages for Housework movement and got unpaid work in the Canadian census. Later elected the first lesbian city councillor in Canada, she and Clr Anne Roberts chaired the first Canadian Gender Equity Strategy for the City of Vancouver. She is now Co President WILPF, Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom Canada, speaker and intersectional consultant on cities and Matriarch Women Transforming Cities.
Maggie Andrew, 64, is a child of divorce and foster care, by the age 17 she was on her own. She worked up until her early 50s when a corporate takeover had her laid off. Its hard as an older woman to get hired, so instead she bought her favourite craft store essentially creating her own rewarding and challenging job. She has managed to weather COVID but as she nears retirement age she is hoping to sell in the next year or so. Maggie has never married and has no children of her own.
Eileen Hoeter, 64, has been many things over the course of her life and throughout it all she consistently shows a fierce passion for life itself. She has worked in the Vancouver Film Industry while simultaneously buying property. Not always easy for a woman even in 1990 – just 30 years ago. She owns several properties here but also has a BnB in Mexico and we are talking to her in the midst of a very busy day for her.
Far from being the retired rocking chair woman drinking tea in the sun, these women demonstrate the dynamic contributions women continue to make well into the senior years.
Music by Shari Ulrich
Today on RTM, I talk with three different women all of whom are over 60 years of age and all of whom would agree that our mental health as we age has nothing to do with fashion, interior design, beauty, cooking, or the health and wellbeing of our spouses or children. So, what does it have to do with? It is about their political actions, entrepreneurship, adventures and a future that is as exciting as what they have done so far.
Ellen Woodsworth, 75, was born into activism. In 1971 she chained herself in the House of Commons for women’s right to choose and went off to cofound the Wages for Housework movement and got unpaid work in the Canadian census. Later elected the first lesbian city councillor in Canada, she and Clr Anne Roberts chaired the first Canadian Gender Equity Strategy for the City of Vancouver. She is now Co President WILPF, Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom Canada, speaker and intersectional consultant on cities and Matriarch Women Transforming Cities.
Maggie Andrew, 64, is a child of divorce and foster care, by the age 17 she was on her own. She worked up until her early 50s when a corporate takeover had her laid off. Its hard as an older woman to get hired, so instead she bought her favourite craft store essentially creating her own rewarding and challenging job. She has managed to weather COVID but as she nears retirement age she is hoping to sell in the next year or so. Maggie has never married and has no children of her own.
Eileen Hoeter, 64, has been many things over the course of her life and throughout it all she consistently shows a fierce passion for life itself. She has worked in the Vancouver Film Industry while simultaneously buying property. Not always easy for a woman even in 1990 – just 30 years ago. She owns several properties here but also has a BnB in Mexico and we are talking to her in the midst of a very busy day for her.
Far from being the retired rocking chair woman drinking tea in the sun, these women demonstrate the dynamic contributions women continue to make well into the senior years.
Music by Shari Ulrich
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
You're listening to Vancouver Corp Radio cfrOH one hundred point five FM. We're
coming to you from the unseat oftraditional territories of the Squamish, Musquam and
Slighery Tooth nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernardine Fox,
and this is this show that daresto change how we think about mental health.
Welcome to Rethreading Madness. Ever beenfather? Know what the hell I'm
(00:32):
gonna do when I can't seem fine? Lowey under Over Today on Rethreading Madness,
I talk with three different women whoall would agree that our mental health
as we age has nothing to dowith fashion, interior design, beauty,
(00:53):
cooking, or the health and wellbeing of our spouses or children. We're
going to talk about their life,their challenge, but most importantly, there
are successes. If you want tolisten to us anywhere you travel, you
can go into your Google Play Storeand then download the Radio Player Canada app
and you can then you can listento your favorite radio station. Co Op
Radio cfr O one hundred point fiveFM. You're listening to re Threading Madness
(01:18):
on Vancouver Coup Radio cfr OH onehundred point five f M. I'm Bernardian
Fox and right now I get thepleasure of speaking with Ellen Woodsworth, who
was born into activism in nineteen seventyone, she changed herself to the House
of Commons for women's Right to Chooseand I'm assuming the right to choose about
abortion, but she can clarify that, and went on to co found the
(01:40):
Wages for Housework movement and got unpaidwork into the Canadians Canadian senses. She
was later elected the first lesbian cityCounselor in Canada, and she and Counselor
An Roberts chaired the first Canadian genderequity strategy for the City of Vancouver.
She was now the co president ofw i l PF, which is a
(02:02):
women's International League for Peace and Freedomin Canada, and as a speaker and
intersectional consultants on cities and matriarch womenTransforming Cities. That is so much,
Ellen, that I feel little andsmall compared to what you have done with
your life. Thank you so muchfor all of this work that you have
(02:24):
done for all of us women overall these years. Well, thank you
very much. And I have toacknowledge my mother and my grandmothers and so
so many, so many who havecome before us. What does it mean
when you said you were born intoactivism? Both of my parents were activists
(02:51):
and so and my mother was theexecutive director of a number of yewcas and
presented the National White WCA on thefirst National Action Committee on the Status a
Women Board. My father was presidentof Canadian Campaign against Nuclear Disarmament and the
(03:14):
sixties, and he was also bornand raised in Japan and took me to
China in nineteen sixty five, whichwas a time that the women were really
really active and I'd never seen anythinglike that. It was so far ahead
of anything women were able to doin Canada. So in both my brother's
(03:38):
one brother was active in the childremovement, so there I came out of
a tradition of political activism. Myfather's first cousin was Grace McGuinness, for
quite a time the only women MPin the House of Commons, and her
his great uncle started this Cooperative Commonwith Federation, the CCP. So it's
(04:01):
a long tradition of being aware ofsocial issues internationally and locally and acting on
them and working for change. Allof that is about working for change.
That's wonderful. So we're talking aboutwomen and aging and what is it like.
(04:25):
You certainly have come from an errorwhere women didn't have access to abortion.
Women were intended to get married twomen. We were expected to be
housekeepers and raise babies and or Ithink maybe hairdressers or teachers might have been
(04:45):
an okay profession as well. Wewere we had no huh sorry, lot
of you got married. Both mygrandmother and my mother were fired from their
jobs when they got that's my grandmotheras a teacher. My mother's ed as
a YWC. Eight. Both ofthem got fired for getting married. Oh
my god. Getting an education wasnot necessarily something that all women could do,
(05:12):
although some could. Having credit wasa no go. You couldn't have
a credit card in your name.I'm not even sure you could have a
bank account in your name. Yourletters came to you addressed missus David Smith.
You can get a job unless yourhusband gave you permission to do so.
(05:33):
God, even in my era,and I think I'm about ten years
younger than you. At this point, when I wanted to change my name,
I was asked to get my husband'spermission to change my name, even
though we were separated. Wow.Yeah, so women have come a long
(05:54):
ways. We've been able to extractourselves from being basically the property of men
to having the right to have ourown lives. And you certainly have been
a big part of having that happen. But now we're moving into being older.
How has how is life changed foryou as you've gotten older. I
(06:20):
think there's there's different stages of beingolder. There's the stage when you no
longer have a paid job and you'rewondering, oh, I'm gonna I don't
own house, I don't have avery good income, and what am I
(06:44):
going to do? And that's that'sjust a stage. So many women and
people with little income are facing.And if you put the intersectional lens on
it, if you look at indigenouswomen or racialized women who are even if
they're not older, are struggling withfinding affordable housing. They're struggling with transit.
(07:11):
They can if they've got a job, get them to the job.
If healthcare issues and they're using wheelchairsor walker aids of some sort, transit
is just terrible. They're dealing witha lot of older women are dealing with
healthcare issues. Whether it's might behearing and they can't afford a decent hearing
(07:32):
aid, or it might be theneed for to update grade their glasses,
or they've got hip problems or needproblems. There's all kinds of healthcare issues,
and there's a dire lack of doctorsand urgent care or community health clinics
that they can access affordably. Dentalcare is another issue. So you know,
(07:58):
you've got the income issue. Thatimpacts housing, it impacts healthcare,
it impacts transit, and then there'sthe question of the isolation that increasing the
number seniors talk about. They arenot necessarily able or know how to use
(08:20):
social media or how they can afforda good computer or be able to update
it and understand how to use it. They may or may not be using
social media. They might not havea decent phone that keeps working or how
to use it. So it's allthe new social technology excludes them. Their
(08:46):
partners may have left them or died, right, So there's loneliness is a
huge issue for seniors. And Ithink also some of the loneliness is a
fear of talking about what's happening totheir lives. Because they don't have very
good income, they don't have apartner, they have affordable ability issues,
(09:07):
they have different ability issues. Thingsthey were dealing with maybe okay, have
been before, say if you're dealingwith being lesbian, or dealing with racism,
or dealing with different abilities. Theychange as you age. They get
(09:28):
more serious, you're more isolated.There's less support for you. So all
of those kinds of things just getso much tougher and you you don't know
where to turn for help. Althoughthere is for eleven Senior Center and Costco
and carp at the National Health thereare good seniors organizations, but for the
individual seniors, there's hard to knowwhere to go to get the supports and
(09:56):
to be able to just talk aboutwhat your daily life is light. Uh,
feel like you're ashamed to talk aboutit. I'm just I'm just reading
Sharon Bolttala's book This Strange Visible Air, Aging in the Writing Life, which
really captures the situation of an olderwoman after her husband died. It's really
(10:18):
quite staggering, and the wisdom thatone has used through one's life to for
me in activism is not necessarily whatyoung people want to hear about. And
there's professors that you see that reallyturn this youth movement against seniors, saying
(10:39):
at senior's fault. And yet ifyou look at women seniors or racialized seniors,
they didn't create the crisis we're innow around affordable housing, or the
crisis around healthcare, or a numberof the crisis say around transit or decent
incomes. Those are not not problemsthat most of us are created. But
(11:05):
young people feel angry at older people, so that's created to divide. That
is unfortunate because young people have problemsaffordable housing and transit and healthcare, so
it should be something that could uniteus. But instead we're struggling to find
that unity to really call for thosenational programs to be strengthened and built up
(11:28):
so that everybody has a decent life. You find that like one of the
things that I also feel happens asyou get older is that you have less
credibility, that somehow your gray hairdoesn't give you wisdom or knowledge or you
know, it doesn't not that thegray hair does that, but it doesn't.
(11:50):
It's not a signifier of those things. It's a signifier that you can't
hear well, that you're bit senile, that you forget everything and you get
you get less respect, you getless you get treated with less respect overall.
And I find that that, alongwith all the other things that you've
talked about, can actually take somebodywho's older, who may have been coping
(12:13):
their whole life with the stresses aroundthem, and increases their level of depression
and their level of anxiety, andmay even intensify post traumatic stress symptoms that
they've had before, but they werehad in check because they dealt with it.
But now it being treated like achild brings it all back. Yeah
(12:35):
again, I think so. AndI think that because they're now global crises,
like you know, the military industrialcomplex is spending about a third of
the Canadian budget when we should beusing it for affordable housing or healthcare.
You have, you know, thepending potential of nuclear war. You have
(12:56):
the the government's getting spending our manyin those areas rather than spending it on
on social needs. And then therise of the right wing. When people
are afraid, they they turn toan individual solution rather than a social solution.
Do you find that as you getolder that how you deal with the
(13:20):
people around you or the issues aroundyou changes, Like for me, I
find that I'm less patient. I'mnot I'm not more mean. I'm just
less patient in terms of dealing withcertain kinds of people than I used to
be. And I find that asI get older, I'm I'm not I'm
(13:43):
not buying into the how can Iput this the idea that we have to
get along with people, or thatwe have to be nice to certain people,
or I don't know, I justI just find that that I'm less
willing to buy into that idea thatI have to make somebody like me.
(14:07):
I'm actually at the point of going, I really don't care if you like
me. This is this is whoI am, and this is what I'm
going to do. And if that'snot okay for you, that's fine,
you can go find your own thing. But I never was like that before.
And this has to do with myhistory. And you know, where
(14:28):
where I was raised, I certainlywasn't raised enough family that was a politically
active Yours sounds like a dream.But do you find that that is also
true for you, that you've gottento a place where you're just given up,
not given up, but just letgo. If some of these social
norms that we bought I bought intoanyway that I had to do. I
(14:56):
don't think it is true for me. One of the things that struck home
and Sharon Battala's comments, I'm goingto rape about this book because that's okay.
I thinks she's done such a greatjob. She talks about how as
we get older, we speak slower, we make take more time to think
about what we're saying, and Ithink it's partly because we're not as busy,
(15:22):
you know. I think that youngpeople speak a lot faster, and
I think I spoke really quickly whenI was juggling, you know, several
different issues at the same time,and that frustrates me that I think she
captured it well. That if wetake time to really think about what we're
saying, but the other person isspeaking three times as fast as that and
(15:46):
doesn't draw on the knowledge base thatwe have from art of different well in
my case, organizing, then there'sa clash, the one the young person's
really frustrating because the older person istaking time and drawing out examples that they
probably have never heard of, andthen the older person is wanting the uni
(16:07):
person to slow down and figure outhow they can work with the older person
on these issues. So I dothink that things get frustrating when people are
not realizing that there's the common groundthat can be reached and must be reached,
given the fact that the right wingis doing really well and build organizations
(16:32):
and shaping elections at all levels ofgovernment. Yes, I didn't answer you
directly, but I think I getno, that's fine, that's fine.
We only have a minute or sohere left. But I did want you
to tell us a little bit aboutwhat women Transforming Cities is about women transforming
(16:55):
cities that are now matriarch of Iwas first elected to city council. I
was invited to the World of inforumin Barcelona just become a women's pale because
they heard at work on women's issues, and I realized when I was there
that the European women were really quitefar ahead of North American women, and
(17:17):
so I thought, I'm going togo back to Kinda and create an ideal
city for women and girls. Sowhen I came back, there's only one
other city councilor, and we developedthe gender Equity strategy with the team of
staff and other wise women of thecommunity, and we set up Women Transforming
Cities International society And since then,it's we've spoken at conferences all over the
(17:41):
world. We've put an intersectional genderedlens on housing, transit, all kinds
of different issues, and we've advocatedfor women to run for public office.
And so it's it's one of anumber of organizations that around the world putting
(18:03):
that intersectional lens on urban issues whichhad never been done before. Wow,
that's wonderful. So when you saywomen transforming cities, and given the things
that you've talked about, you're sayingthat how can I put those Let make
it just think this bit, ifI just take it down to my own
(18:32):
way of looking at it, thatthese systems that are in place are built
by men for men, and youare bringing in an intersectional lens and bringing
in women's issues to make sure thatthe systems that are out there also work
for women. Is that what I'mgetting? Yeah, the same thing I
do as a Canadian co president ofthe Women's International League for Peace and Freedom.
(18:57):
We put that intersectional gendered lens onthe spending on you know, weapons
of mass destruction, the use offossil fuels, the lack of housing for
refugees and immigrants. So that's whatwe try to do is speak out for
(19:18):
peace and call for social justice andput a highlight on the implications for everyone
around the world and the billions thatare being spent by especially by the United
States, which has bases over youknow, eight hundred bases around the world,
and Canada has just agreed to spendeighty eight billion on fighter jets.
(19:40):
That and Canada. You know,it's quite horrendous how much the military industrial
complex is able to get nation states, including Canadas, spend money on things
that are you know, perpetuating war, you know, causing people to be
homeless and to be refugees, andand it's causing the climate change, and
(20:06):
people are guilting each other up allthe time about climate change. Is if
it's our individual problem, but ifyou look at what's really creating the problem.
One flyover of our fighter jet createsmore pollution than a car in a
year. We really have to lookat what is creating the problems that we
(20:26):
as older women are observing after youknow, decades of looking at social issues,
and it's it's not a problem ofthe individual, but it is our
problem. If we can't learn howto build organizations to stand up and say
what kind of world we want tolive in? Right right? Well,
well done, Thank you Alan forcoming and chatting with me about this.
(20:48):
It's been a lovely conversation. It'sbeen my pleasure. Thank you so much
for doing and thank co Op Radiofor me. I love the work that
you all do. That thank you. I will let them know and we'll
be right back. Fox up.Qui get Yuan's queen snaw Hi everybody.
My name is Qui get Us.I'm a member of the Squamish Nation and
(21:11):
the Yaglanist clan of the Higha Nation. You're listening to co Op Radio CFR
oh one hundred point five FM.We live, work play and broadcast from
the traditional ancestral and unseated territories ofthe Musqueam, Squamish and Slave with Tooth
nations. You're listening to re ThreadingMadness on Bancouver co Op Radio CFR oh
one hundred point five f M.I'm Bernardine Fox and I'm chatting with Maggie
(21:34):
Andrew. Thank you somebody I've knownfor. How long have we known each
other? Maggie, Oh my gosh, your kid was sad? What three
oh so twenty years? Yeah?My god, we really are old.
Yeah, we are so, Maggie. You're a child of divorce and you
(21:56):
were in foster care and by theage of seventeen you were on your own.
You worked up until early fifties andthen I think what you said is
a corporate takeover. Basically had youlaid off and as an older woman,
you had a hard time getting hired, so instead you bought your favorite craft
store and became a manager and businessowner. Yes, you weathered COVID as
(22:18):
that business owner owner. And you'venow looking at nearing retirement age. You've
never married, is that correct?That's correct? And no children? Nope.
So what we're talking about here iswe're talking about how as older women,
as we age and near retirement andour elder golden years or whatever they
(22:44):
call them. Now, what doesthat look like? And basically I really
want to ask how how has itaging change your mental health or how's it?
And yes, it has very I'vegotten quite distrusting of people, just
the way people they're so entitled andthey're they're you. Most people seem to
(23:11):
be users, and they look atolder women like we're stupid, like we
you know, you don't know howto do this or that, and you
like, I'm finding that with inthe banking industry, they talk down to
me like I'm an idiot, andwhich just is so irritating. In the
business world, a lot of themen do the same thing. They talk
(23:33):
down And because I'm not formally educated, that seems to have an impact on
how people view you or view me. I can only speak for myself,
but through past experience of trying to, you know, job hunting before I
bought my business, I would Ihad very good references for my work and
(24:00):
tried to get work and I couldn'tbecause you don't have the education. We
need to have educated people, andit's like, you know, practical experience
is a lot more important in myview than a certificate. But yeah,
and as I've gotten older, evenwith the like the medical profession. Right
(24:22):
now, I've been going through somehealth issues with gallbladder and a kidney stone
and stuff, and I'm supposed tohave some work something done. It comes
to a screeching halt because the anestatistsees something in my chart that he doesn't
like that from like four years ago, I've gone through like six doctors.
How come nobody has seen it,and then this guy talks to me like,
(24:45):
I'm pardon me. I know thisis politically incorrect, but speaks to
me like I'm retarded, and itjust yeah. So my mental health right
now is like I'm just a finea thin line of snapping on somebody right
right. Have you been able toresolve your medical issue so that you can
(25:07):
get the surgery you're looking for orwhat happened to you talked to the doctors.
Well, I haven't talked to thedoctors. I've got an appointment with
an internist on Tuesday I had aweek ago. The receptionist from this rapid
access clinic called me and said,you know, we can book you for
(25:32):
next Tuesday. Now. To me, next Tuesday would be the tuesday coming
up, right, And my faultI should have said, okay, this
date, but I went with nextTuesday, right. So I made arrangements
to have my have the store staffedso that I could devote myself to this
(25:56):
call. And I'm waiting. It'ssupposed to be ten five, waiting and
waiting. Finally, at eleven thirty, I phone, we don't have you
booked for today, And I said, that's funny, and I said I.
When I talked to the girl lastweek, she said next Tuesday.
I said, make sure it's onmy cell phone, and so she checked
(26:18):
my cell number. No nothing,So I said, well for gig goals,
how about if you checked my homenumber. So I give my home
number. Yeah, it's booked forTuesday, September fifth on my home phone.
So the incompetence everywhere is just amazing. So you think that has to
do with your age or was thatjust something that is happening out there in
(26:38):
the medical profession at this point inour lives. Yeah, I don't think.
Yeah, it's probably not my age. I just it just is because
I'm getting older, I'm getting lesspatient. Yeah, but still on that
too, I don't have the samepatience as I used to have. I
you know, and of course peopletell me all the time, you are
(26:59):
so paid, you know, theyso tolerant of people with different views and
everything, and and I like thatabout myself. But there are points where
I will no longer put up withwhat I used to put up with,
well exactly just and I think partof that is that I've gotten to an
age where I don't I don't questionmyself the same way that I did when
(27:19):
I was younger. That said,I do think that people do question older
people more than they do younger people. Right that they question our memory,
they question our our politics, theyquestion are are whatever? Well, they
don't take us serious because we're we'reold and getting a little scene now.
(27:41):
And I you know, I admitI'm getting very forgetful. The biggest lie
I tell myself is I'll remember andI don't forget. What if? What
if you look at it this way, Maggie, we are I'm like almost
sixty five. I have sixty fiveyears of memory and information and knowledge and
(28:03):
you know, a lifetime of birthdaysand whatever in my head like it's bursting,
Like I don't have much more roomto put stuff. I often say,
look, if your name is John, I will not remember it.
My John list on the shelf isfull. I don't have any more room
for people named John, and soI will probably forget your name. And
(28:27):
that's what I feel like. It'slike I have so much in there.
If you're twenty, I mean,you don't have as much sitting in your
long term memory bangs. Yeah,well, I've got a little notebook now
that I try and remember to writestuff in it because I will forget,
and I especially, you know,with running the store and dealing with customers,
(28:48):
you know, And then they say, remember that thing that I bought
two weeks ago? And I lookat them and I'm like, you're serious,
right, yeah, you know,do you remember what paper that was?
And I'm like, I don't rememberwhat I did two seconds ago,
and you want me to remember somethingyou but two weeks ago. But that
could just be an egocentric kind ofperson that thinks that your whole life only
(29:12):
exists in relationship to her or him. They're all that way, it seems.
I'm starting to One of my staffjust tells me, I hate people.
I'm tired of people in today.And I'm like, yeah, I'm
like that too. But you know, when you're doing what we do,
we have to put that kind ofstuff aside. So do you feel that
(29:33):
that aging, you know, andthe accumulation of all the things that we've
gone through, has that impacted yourmental health in terms of like one of
the things they say about women andtheir mental health as they get older is
that the primary things they deal withour anxiety, depression, and post traumatic
stress, which I think that itprobably dealt with anxiety, depression and post
(29:59):
my stress our whole lives. We'rejust still dealing with it when we're anxious,
when we're aging. So is thatsomething that you deal with at all?
Yes, definitely, definitely have anissue with anxiety. I've had a
few anxiety attacks where I thought,honestly, I thought I was having a
jammer and I'm oh, heart attack, Oh okay, all right, yeah,
(30:21):
And so I have gone into thehospital for you know, thinking that
that's what was happening, and they'verun all the tests and they said,
no, you're fine because they cando it. They can tell just by
doing blood tests, the enzymes inyour blood. But you know, I've
had all these different tests and theysay, you're fine, there's there's nothing
wrong with your heart. So theygive me a prescription for ad Evan and
(30:44):
you know, but I only geta prescription for like twelve because we don't
want you to overdo it. AndI'm like, yeah, no problem.
So and then you know, stress. Stress is huge, you know in
my life, you know, becausebeing in retail and all the issues with
just with the money flow, makingsure that you've got money to pay your
(31:07):
staff, money to pay the rent, and you know, that's so stressful,
and it's like, I've got totry and find some way of lowering
my stress level. But unless somebodycomes and drops a million bucks on me,
that's not going to happen. Ithink so, So retirement is the
next best thing, the thing that'snot lost on me when when I see
(31:33):
these reports that this is what olderwomen are dealing with in terms of depression,
anxiety, and postraumatic stresses, thatthey are all things to do with
trauma. And you and I havegrown up in a society that, for
the most part, you know,women, people who are female, have
grown up being traumatized, being traumatizedby a society. We grew up in
(31:56):
our family, we grew up inyou know, by the men that we've
been around in our lives, youknow, and how we've been treated.
And I don't know your personal life, I know mine, and I look
at those and I think those areall the things that people who've been traumatized
are going to be dealing with.Yeah. Yeah, So it just means
that we just haven't given women enoughaccess to mental health resources so that they
(32:22):
can actually resolve the things that haveto do with trauma that would get us
to our old age without being depressedand anxious in coping with post traumatic stress.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, finallydealing with some something that happened to
me back in nineteen eighty six,and it's you know, I'm finally able
(32:44):
to put that to rest because theindividuals involved have passed now. So I'm
so sorry you had to wait forthem to die. I know, I
know, and it's I mean thatyou shouldn't have to, but you know,
and fortunately the way things are inour in our world and dealing with
(33:06):
family members, it uh, youknow, if you bring it out then
you're you're hard and feathered kind ofthing. So but we won't go into
that. Isn't it also true thatthey say, at least where I grew
up, you can't speak ill ofthe dead. So even if in my
situation where I grew up, dyingwould not give their victims a safe place
(33:34):
to start dealing with things, becausethen you're speaking ill of the dead.
Yeah, well I don't. Yeah, I don't speak about it, but
you know, about them personally.But the fact that they're dead now just
gives me soulless. So in safety, that makes yes, Yeah, I
don't have to see them, becauseI had to still see this this one
(33:57):
individual and try and be nice.And I could tell, you know,
by the way he was that hewas just loving it because he knew what
he had done, and I couldn'tsay anything. Oh my god. Yeah,
so we'll talk about it another day, Yes, yes we will.
But I you know, I havemy own version of that. I had
somebody in my family that has assaultedme as a teenager, and my mother
(34:22):
actually said, you know, ifyou were nicer to him and maybe gave
him a birthday card or an anniversarycard for his marriage, then you know,
you know, maybe it would bebetter. Yeah, thanks mom,
My god. I mean, shedid not know, and I had not
(34:43):
told her. But the question wasn'twhat's what's the problem here? It was
decided without any knowledge that I wasthe problem and I needed to be nicer
to him. And so I knowexactly what you're talking about, this attitude.
You know, we we have awhole generation of women and maybe two
generations of women who have been andmore. I mean, but there may
(35:07):
not be alive anymore that have beenraised to no matter what happens to you
by a man you'd be nice tohim and you don't say anything, and
you just be pleasant, and andand and and yes, men knew that,
so like yours was probably really revelingin the fact that you were,
(35:29):
you know, you were still beingnice to him. Yep. And yeah,
yeah, I'm sorry that happened toyou. Well, yes, thank
you. Yeah, But I meanit's the thing. You can't change it.
You have to you have to learnI won't say accept it, but
you have to learn to live withit, not let it eat you from
the inside out. Yeah, yeah, you process it exactly, but you
(35:53):
know, and and unfortunate, youknow that that happened, But there's you
know, it happens in various ways, or has happened to me in various
ways through the years, with likewithin the business world, and that you
know, like I was saying earlierabout the education issue, you know,
I knew I did good work.And you know, I worked at various
(36:16):
places over the years after being laidoff from my dream job that you know,
thirteen years and it was a fabulousjob. And then through a corporate
takeover. Yeah, there was atleast seventy five percent of the staff were
laid off and you know, Itried getting work in the same industry,
(36:39):
but by this time they're doing thewhole thing. You know, HR has
their little handbook and these are thecriteria that we need you to fit.
And because I didn't have post secondaryeducation, and you know, some of
the guys, like I tried justdoesn't matter that you know or that I
say where, but Delta Port workingout at the terminal would have been a
(37:05):
good fit working in there. AndI knew all of the guys that I
had the interview with because I'm sittingon one side of the boardroom and three
guys are sitting on the other side, and I had worked with them all
in the past. And you know, one of the guys, Doug,
says, you know, Maggie,you would be ideal, and so you
know, we're talking, and Ifelt really good about it. And then
(37:27):
he phoned me a little while laterand he says, you know, and
I didn't want to keep you hanging, he says, excuse me, He
says, you give great interview,Maggie, he says, and you've got
all the experience that we want,but HR will not let us hire you
because you do not have the education. And I said, practical experience doesn't
(37:51):
trump education, and he says,unfortunately, no, not in the the
corporate end of things. They wantto see people that have the education.
And I said, but they don'tknow what they're doing, right, this
is exactly but we can train themlike that makes no sense. I mean,
(38:13):
of course, I'm sorry to interruptyou, but that's kind of part
of what happens with older people,right, And it's not just women.
I'm sure it happens with other people. When we were younger, all we
needed was a high school diploma.That's what they said. Get your high
school diploma and you'll be fine.But then it changed over that time frame,
and so by the time you hitfifty, it's changed and you kind
(38:34):
of out there in the cold.We just have to stop here, Maggie.
I'm sorry, but thank you forthis conversation. I appreciate it,
and we'll be right back footma.The Greater Vancouver Feedbank has been providing support
for our cities for almost forty yearsand has been vital to help in thousands
of community members through the COVID nineteencrisis. To find out how you might
(38:55):
benefit from the Greater Vancouver Food Banksservices, well. To learn how you
might donate money for volunteer your time, please visit their website at Foodbank dot
BC dot c A. You're listeningto Rethreating Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
cfr O one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernadine Fox and right now I'm
(39:16):
speaking with Eileen Hoyter. Eileen,did I say your last name? Right?
Holder? Is the pronunciation here?It's Hitta and German? But it's
good, Okay, all right,that's good. So, just as a
disclosure, Eileen and I knew eachother way back in the film industry when
(39:37):
I was there and she was there, and I have worked on I think
a few films, maybe not films, maybe commercials together more like it.
So, Eileen, we're talking aboutbeing older as a female person in this
planet, on this planet. Whatis it like for you getting to this
(39:59):
age? I think you were aboutthe same me, just me. You're
about sixty five? Am I right? No, I'm only sixty four.
I'll be sixty five in January.Okay, you're a young man, then
I'll yes, you are just ababy. And of course as we get
older, life tends to go faster. So January is like tomorrow. I
(40:24):
know I'm already planning Christmas and allof that right now. I can't believe
it. I'm worse than the stores. That's okay, but you have reason
to be planning those things. Idon't know. So we'll just kind of
skip ahead in this story because rightnow, even though you're in Vancouver today,
you normally live in Mexico because youhave a B and B and a
(40:45):
restaurant and a bar and a hotel. Am I right, yes, we
we kind of do the six monthshere six months there. I have a
little hotel. It sleeps a tenfull on a twenty seven mile beach in
the middle of nowhere where there's morepelicans and dolphins and whales and people.
(41:07):
And we built it in well,it will be ten years next year.
I built in twenty fourteen. Andwe have a little restaurant called a Chubby
Mermaid. And that keeps me busy. Since I kind of slowed down in
the film industry, I'm still doinga little bit in the film industry,
but I'm basically, you know,I'm not doing a production anymore like that.
(41:30):
I'm working with two other producers ona script right now. But you
can do that from anywhere. Yes, you can do lots of things from
anywhere. That's true. Now Iknow everything. I'm not sure you can
take photographs on set from anywhere?Can you? Probably not? Probably not.
(41:52):
But other than that, you cando a lot of stuff. I
mean, even to the point thatI have a couple of little apartments in
Vancouver and when I'm in Mexico,I can phone somebody and get them to
do the repairs and pay them online. And you don't need to be there
anymore, No, you don't.You just need to be able to have
people you trust in whatever location you'reworking with. So you were in the
(42:15):
film industry for quite some time.When did you start? Eighty three?
Unbelievable. As a matter of fact, I'm in Vancouver right now for the
Beach Combers reunion. Oh my god. My first sold in the film industry
was working on the Beachcombers. Wow. And that that Beach Combers that they
(42:35):
went on for a long time,didn't they? How long were they?
They were the longest running TV seriesin Canada. They still are if I'm
not mistaken, it's eighteen years.But I don't don't hold me in that
Wow. And you also as ayoung woman in the early nineties was also
and you can correct me on thetime if I'm not remembering it right,
(42:59):
you also purchase property, but youhad difficulties as a woman purchasing properly,
if I believe, well, it'sinteresting. Yeah, in the eighty nine
ninety I had fifty percent down onan apartment, but they wouldn't give me
a mortgage as a single female inthe film industry. I guess it wasn't
(43:20):
considered stable enough. And they saidif my father co signed, we could
get the apartment taken care of.And I was much too stubborn at that
age to have my father co signed, so I had to get the guy
to write a little letter saying,yes, we see a long and fruitful
future with Eileen. And then theygave me a mortgage. But it wasn't
just the mortgage. It was,you know, getting interim financing for a
(43:45):
series I was producing when the companywas create her HR Productions and I was
doing a serious women in the Artsin Canada, and they wanted to and
they they wrote the letter dear sir, as if no woman would be wanting,
you know, a million dollars ininterim financing for goodness sake, and
(44:08):
this was the bank that was doingthat that. Sorry, this was the
bank that was doing that. Yes, this was the bank that was doing
that sending me a letter to seeif I would like interim financing, which
I already had and with the samebank. And so I wrote the lady
who wrote me this letter, dearsir, a letter, or I phoned
(44:28):
her and I said, you know, I deal with your bank, and
I deal with a guy I've beendealing with for many, many years,
and his name is Bernard, andhe never calls me sir. But I
mean even the real estate deals,I hate to say it, like the
contracts would say he the purchaser.He never said she. It was to
(44:51):
sir he and I refused to signthese things until they all crossed them all
out and changed them to they orgender neutral. Right. I actually bought
a house with a woman in nineteenninety eight, and we found that there
were a lot of instances where webelieved that we weren't being showed places or
(45:15):
being taken seriously as buyers because wewere female, even in nineteen ninety eight,
and of course it's four years agowhen I sold my property and I
was looking for a new realtor,and I asked people I knew who had
bought and they suggested people. Andthis one realtor came to the house and
(45:36):
he said, well, I'd liketo speak to your husband, and I
said, well, the property isin my name and he's not even here.
He was down in Mexico. Andit was like, well, we
just don't want anything going wrong.Halfway through and I said, what can
go wrong? The properties in myname, I am the seller. And
they still wanted to talk to myhusband. It was like infuriating. Obviously
(45:57):
he did not get the realtor,no kidding. It's just and I think
that people don't. I mean,we're kind of getting it again seeing what's
happening in the States around abortion issuesand LGBTQ issues, But people don't really
remember that. I know when Iwas a kid, women didn't own property.
(46:20):
You couldn't own property, you couldn'thave a credit card in your name.
I spoke with this with Ellen justbefore you. You know how,
we didn't have credit, We didn'teven we didn't get the right to our
own name. My mother's name cameas missus and her husband's name not her
name. She didn't even exist,you know. So we we are right
(46:42):
now, even in twenty twenty three, only a few decades beyond a time
when we really didn't have human rightsthe same way that men did. And
these are little sort of leftover thingsthat have been happening, and it has
been changing, it has been gettingbetter. It is disconcerting what's happening in
the United States and how far thatwill go and whether or not it'll eventually
(47:06):
find its way up here in Canada. We'll be having the same fights,
I certainly hope not. Well.I've been interesting because my godmother, who
has now passed away at least twentyyears, but my godmother for the first
four years of her life was nota person, right because and you were
the property of your parents or yourhusband exactly. And that that's happened within
(47:31):
my lifetime. I always found thatso shocking that that that could have happened,
or would have happened, or evenwas existed within my lifetime. You
know, when I separated from myhusband, the one that I actually legally
married, I was separated. Ihad moved an entire province. I had
(47:55):
left him because he was a batterer, and I went to change my name
and the vital statistics here. NBCtold me that I could not get my
name changed legally unless I had hispermission. Oh my goodness, Well things
they changed. I was president ofWomen in Film for many years in Bankcouver
(48:19):
and I was president of International Womenin Film, and it was, I
mean still in the film industry.You know, it's something like four percent
or directors or women, but it'sso ingrained. You know, I used
to teach show. I used torun the bank or Film school and I
used to teach there, and youknow, they would say the producer he,
(48:40):
and the script supervisor she. Itwas just like ingrained. And to
break those kind of stereotypes, andnot only just in the film innistry,
in the in you know, I'mdoing a project now on the first female
pilot commercial pilot in South Africa thathappened in the seventies and what her experiences
(49:02):
were and it's and it still hasn'tchanged. If you look at how many
women pilots are today compared to mailpilots commercial pilots, the numbers staggering.
Yeah, it really is. We'vewe've come a long way, and yet
we haven't come far enough that wecan rest on our laurels that it's not
(49:25):
going to revert back. We justcan't. We just can't. I don't.
I'm glad you're doing that project though, Thank you for doing that.
You are described as an extrovert,and you certainly have been a not loud
(49:45):
as in volume, but loud asin personages, personage, personage. Person
Okay, that word is not goingto come out of my mouth today,
Oh dear, but you alloud personYou're not loud as emboliant, but you're
You're noticeable. You're there. You'rewhat six foot something, six foot one,
(50:07):
six foot one, yeah, anddefinitely definitely out there in that sense
of not. I mean my neighborin Mexico, My place is blue,
orange and all sorts of colors,and his place is beige. And he
used to always come to me andsay, you're not afraid of color,
are you? And and somebody quotedand I can't remember who that was,
(50:30):
says you can't dress a peacock inbeige. Well, that's kind of I
thought, a really interesting analogy.Because I love bright colors. That's probably
why I was tracted to going toMexico. My place is bright colors.
Everything is bright, and you know, and I'm definitely not afraid of color.
(50:50):
I've been wearing purple since I wasin my teen so to speak,
yes, yes, and wearing purpleis a meaningful statement. Thank you.
There are many of my readers thatare going to understand that concept for sure.
So you could I say then thatwho you are now as an older
woman is the same as who youwere when you were in your twenties and
(51:14):
thirties. Have you changed? Well, it's interesting because I did it.
One of the first films I everdid was a documentary on living in a
care home and a positive view toliving in a care home. And I
remember, like my grandparents were inEurope, and so I didn't really spend
a lot of time with elderly peopleas a child. And when I did
(51:36):
this film, you know, Iwas somewhat uncomfortable spending time with elderly people
because I just had never done it. And I remember talking to a gentleman.
He was about eighty years old,and he was playing chess and I
was filming this sequence with him,and he said, you know what,
I've been playing chess and listening toclassical music since I was in my twenties.
Now suddenly I'm in my eighties.I'm eighty six, and they expect
(51:59):
me to play ball and all thesecrazy games. I never did it when
I was young, Why would Ido it now? And that really resonated
with me because I truly believe thatwho you are in your twenties, you
know whatever, or your early thirtiesis who you're going to be in your
eighties. It's not like you gothrough the sudden change where you you If
(52:22):
you're a kind of crazy, outgoingperson in your twenties, it's not going
to change in your eighties. You'restill going to be a kind of a
crazy, outgoing, elderly person less, but it's not going to change your
fabric of who you are. AndI think that really interesting and I found
that to be true because I mean, I'm sixty four, but I don't
(52:45):
feel like I'm sixty four. Iprobably don't act like I'm sixty four.
I think generationally we've changed a lotsince what our parents were at sixty four.
Absolutely, for our parents was quiteold, and now it's we are
not aging in the same way.I don't think, I think mentally are
not aging in the same way.And so therefore we don't our lives don't
(53:07):
represent what there's did at this ageas well. I do agree with you,
I don't. I think the fabricof who we are and our bones
it doesn't change. If you're anintrovert, you're going to be an introvert.
If you're an extrovert, you're justgoing to stay that way. I
think, do you think people changein terms of resolving trauma or coming to
a place in their lives where thevalues they held or thought they held or
(53:30):
thought they had to hold when theywere thirty no longer apply when you're sixty
four. So so, for instance, somebody who was raised to believe that,
and that happened a lot in ourage group. Maybe not for you,
but I know a lot of peoplethey were raised to be submissive towards
(53:51):
men. I eat, Men needto like me, or else I can't
eat or sleep or get a jobor whatever. And we get to a
place where you're older women are sayingI don't have to do that anymore.
I don't really give a crap whetheror not they like me or not anymore.
Like it's just it's a liberating,freeing concept. And I don't think
that ever was true for you.Well, you know, it's interesting,
(54:13):
and I think being six foot onehas something to do with that in the
sense that, you know, Igrew up where, you know, I'd
have girlfriends who are in their fivefoot six, five foot seven or whatever,
and they'd say, oh, well, you know, I'm not going
to go out with a man who'snot six. You know, they had
all these requirements of height, etcetera, et cetera. I'm six foot
(54:35):
one. You know, I usedto say to a guy, if you
can't they used to always ask meto take off my high heels to go
dancing, like if I was wantingto take off your shoes, and I'd
say, I'm not taking off myshoes. And but it was always like
I used to say, if youcan't handle my height, that's just mother
nature warning you to run away now, because it's like, if you can't
even handle my height, there's noway you're going to be able to handle
(54:58):
me. And it's it's a verysing place that you come from because I
didn't fit the norm. Even Iwas five foot six and grade three,
I was six feet by Grade seven. I didn't fit the norm. You
know. We used to looking upin elementary school by height. It was
all the girls, all the boys, and me. So it was always
(55:21):
coming from a different point where Ididn't fit in physically to what I should
have been. The nice sweet nobodyused to when I started in the film
industreet, nobody could pat me onthe head and say, oh, you
nice little girl coming on to setkind of, you know. I mean,
that does change you on a certainlevel. But but also it's just,
(55:45):
you know, my personality. Iworked in the film industry many many
you know shows I worked on.I was the only female on set.
You know, you you came froma different perspective of what it was,
you know, I, you know, working with men all the time,
so to speak. So maybe that'sa lot to do with what I saw
(56:07):
and how I expected to be treated, and you know, what was acceptable
or not acceptable to me. Imean, back then, good sakes,
you used to I remember one guysaying to me on set and he said,
you don't like men, do you? And I said, well,
yes I do. And he said, well, how come you are always
(56:28):
giving us such a hard time?And I said, because I'm the only
female here who has to represent thewhole female end And you know, this
was in the days when we'd besitting and having lunch and they'd be watching
women's you know, kids walking byand commenting while I'm still sitting at the
table. Yeah, that doesn't rememberthat time, not even some No,
(56:50):
not good, not cool. Iremember it. It was a hard We
had to deal with a lot,and we were told, actually, you're
gonna working on man's field. You'regonna have to put up with that,
and so wrong. Anyway, Imean, thank you so much for chatting
with me about this. This wasa wonderful addition to this show. I
appreciate it. It was nice toconnect with you again, and I wish
(57:12):
you yeah in your endeavors. ThankMexico. Where is your in Mexico.
It's near months and Ao, ortwenty minutes from the months in Ao airport.
If you're ever in Mexico, comeon down. We have a turtle
sanctuary. We collect turtle eggs.We're very quiet, relaxed spot Villa Star
of the Sea, and it's it'sa great place to hang. So it's
(57:35):
called the Villa Star of the Sea. Villa Star of the Sea. Okay,
that's the place when I'm no airportokay, I will when I'm in
Mexico, I will come visit.Thank you, kay, okay, chatting,
okay, thank you. All right, We'll talk to you soon.
Bybye, and that's our show.We're Threading Madness has now aired on Vancouver
(57:59):
Corporate d O cfr O one hundredpoint five FM on Tuesdays at five pm,
on CJUM in Winnipeg on Monday atnine am, and then on c
k XU in Lethbridge on Wednesdays atone pm. You can also find us
on the Mental Health Radio Network andwherever you download your podcasts. My thanks
to Ellen Woodsworth, Maggie Andrew,and Aileen Horder for taking the time out
(58:21):
of their busy days to chat withme. Music today was by Sherry Ulrich.
More importantly, my thanks goes oarto you for joining us today.
Stay safe out there. You've justlistened to Rethreading Madness, where we dare
to change how we think about mentalhealth. We air live on Vancouver Collip
Radio cf O one hundred point fiveFM every Tuesday at five pm, or
(58:44):
online at coop radio dot org.If you have questions or feedback about this
program, or want to share yourstory or have something to say to us,
We want to hear from you.You can reach us by email rethreading
Madness at coop radio dot org.This is Bernadine Fox. We'll be back
next week. Until that, whenI've never been further, know what the
(59:09):
hell I'm gonna do when I can'tseem to find my way under over you,
just when I'm ready to give upthe light they are when we turn
(59:31):
on the lights and it's all right, it's all right. Don't you be
all right? Why do I alwaysbelieve it when you tell everything's gonna be our brain
You're listening to Vancouver Corp Radio cfrOH one hundred point five FM. We're
coming to you from the unseat oftraditional territories of the Squamish, Musquam and
Slighery Tooth nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernardine Fox,
and this is this show that daresto change how we think about mental health.
Welcome to Rethreading Madness. Ever beenfather? Know what the hell I'm
(00:32):
gonna do when I can't seem fine? Lowey under Over Today on Rethreading Madness,
I talk with three different women whoall would agree that our mental health
as we age has nothing to dowith fashion, interior design, beauty,
(00:53):
cooking, or the health and wellbeing of our spouses or children. We're
going to talk about their life,their challenge, but most importantly, there
are successes. If you want tolisten to us anywhere you travel, you
can go into your Google Play Storeand then download the Radio Player Canada app
and you can then you can listento your favorite radio station. Co Op
Radio cfr O one hundred point fiveFM. You're listening to re Threading Madness
(01:18):
on Vancouver Coup Radio cfr OH onehundred point five f M. I'm Bernardian
Fox and right now I get thepleasure of speaking with Ellen Woodsworth, who
was born into activism in nineteen seventyone, she changed herself to the House
of Commons for women's Right to Chooseand I'm assuming the right to choose about
abortion, but she can clarify that, and went on to co found the
(01:40):
Wages for Housework movement and got unpaidwork into the Canadians Canadian senses. She
was later elected the first lesbian cityCounselor in Canada, and she and Counselor
An Roberts chaired the first Canadian genderequity strategy for the City of Vancouver.
She was now the co president ofw i l PF, which is a
(02:02):
women's International League for Peace and Freedomin Canada, and as a speaker and
intersectional consultants on cities and matriarch womenTransforming Cities. That is so much,
Ellen, that I feel little andsmall compared to what you have done with
your life. Thank you so muchfor all of this work that you have
(02:24):
done for all of us women overall these years. Well, thank you
very much. And I have toacknowledge my mother and my grandmothers and so
so many, so many who havecome before us. What does it mean
when you said you were born intoactivism? Both of my parents were activists
(02:51):
and so and my mother was theexecutive director of a number of yewcas and
presented the National White WCA on thefirst National Action Committee on the Status a
Women Board. My father was presidentof Canadian Campaign against Nuclear Disarmament and the
(03:14):
sixties, and he was also bornand raised in Japan and took me to
China in nineteen sixty five, whichwas a time that the women were really
really active and I'd never seen anythinglike that. It was so far ahead
of anything women were able to doin Canada. So in both my brother's
(03:38):
one brother was active in the childremovement, so there I came out of
a tradition of political activism. Myfather's first cousin was Grace McGuinness, for
quite a time the only women MPin the House of Commons, and her
his great uncle started this Cooperative Commonwith Federation, the CCP. So it's
(04:01):
a long tradition of being aware ofsocial issues internationally and locally and acting on
them and working for change. Allof that is about working for change.
That's wonderful. So we're talking aboutwomen and aging and what is it like.
(04:25):
You certainly have come from an errorwhere women didn't have access to abortion.
Women were intended to get married twomen. We were expected to be
housekeepers and raise babies and or Ithink maybe hairdressers or teachers might have been
(04:45):
an okay profession as well. Wewere we had no huh sorry, lot
of you got married. Both mygrandmother and my mother were fired from their
jobs when they got that's my grandmotheras a teacher. My mother's ed as
a YWC. Eight. Both ofthem got fired for getting married. Oh
my god. Getting an education wasnot necessarily something that all women could do,
(05:12):
although some could. Having credit wasa no go. You couldn't have
a credit card in your name.I'm not even sure you could have a
bank account in your name. Yourletters came to you addressed missus David Smith.
You can get a job unless yourhusband gave you permission to do so.
(05:33):
God, even in my era,and I think I'm about ten years
younger than you. At this point, when I wanted to change my name,
I was asked to get my husband'spermission to change my name, even
though we were separated. Wow.Yeah, so women have come a long
(05:54):
ways. We've been able to extractourselves from being basically the property of men
to having the right to have ourown lives. And you certainly have been
a big part of having that happen. But now we're moving into being older.
How has how is life changed foryou as you've gotten older. I
(06:20):
think there's there's different stages of beingolder. There's the stage when you no
longer have a paid job and you'rewondering, oh, I'm gonna I don't
own house, I don't have avery good income, and what am I
(06:44):
going to do? And that's that'sjust a stage. So many women and
people with little income are facing.And if you put the intersectional lens on
it, if you look at indigenouswomen or racialized women who are even if
they're not older, are struggling withfinding affordable housing. They're struggling with transit.
(07:11):
They can if they've got a job, get them to the job.
If healthcare issues and they're using wheelchairsor walker aids of some sort, transit
is just terrible. They're dealing witha lot of older women are dealing with
healthcare issues. Whether it's might behearing and they can't afford a decent hearing
(07:32):
aid, or it might be theneed for to update grade their glasses,
or they've got hip problems or needproblems. There's all kinds of healthcare issues,
and there's a dire lack of doctorsand urgent care or community health clinics
that they can access affordably. Dentalcare is another issue. So you know,
(07:58):
you've got the income issue. Thatimpacts housing, it impacts healthcare,
it impacts transit, and then there'sthe question of the isolation that increasing the
number seniors talk about. They arenot necessarily able or know how to use
(08:20):
social media or how they can afforda good computer or be able to update
it and understand how to use it. They may or may not be using
social media. They might not havea decent phone that keeps working or how
to use it. So it's allthe new social technology excludes them. Their
(08:46):
partners may have left them or died, right, So there's loneliness is a
huge issue for seniors. And Ithink also some of the loneliness is a
fear of talking about what's happening totheir lives. Because they don't have very
good income, they don't have apartner, they have affordable ability issues,
(09:07):
they have different ability issues. Thingsthey were dealing with maybe okay, have
been before, say if you're dealingwith being lesbian, or dealing with racism,
or dealing with different abilities. Theychange as you age. They get
(09:28):
more serious, you're more isolated.There's less support for you. So all
of those kinds of things just getso much tougher and you you don't know
where to turn for help. Althoughthere is for eleven Senior Center and Costco
and carp at the National Health thereare good seniors organizations, but for the
individual seniors, there's hard to knowwhere to go to get the supports and
(09:56):
to be able to just talk aboutwhat your daily life is light. Uh,
feel like you're ashamed to talk aboutit. I'm just I'm just reading
Sharon Bolttala's book This Strange Visible Air, Aging in the Writing Life, which
really captures the situation of an olderwoman after her husband died. It's really
(10:18):
quite staggering, and the wisdom thatone has used through one's life to for
me in activism is not necessarily whatyoung people want to hear about. And
there's professors that you see that reallyturn this youth movement against seniors, saying
(10:39):
at senior's fault. And yet ifyou look at women seniors or racialized seniors,
they didn't create the crisis we're innow around affordable housing, or the
crisis around healthcare, or a numberof the crisis say around transit or decent
incomes. Those are not not problemsthat most of us are created. But
(11:05):
young people feel angry at older people, so that's created to divide. That
is unfortunate because young people have problemsaffordable housing and transit and healthcare, so
it should be something that could uniteus. But instead we're struggling to find
that unity to really call for thosenational programs to be strengthened and built up
(11:28):
so that everybody has a decent life. You find that like one of the
things that I also feel happens asyou get older is that you have less
credibility, that somehow your gray hairdoesn't give you wisdom or knowledge or you
know, it doesn't not that thegray hair does that, but it doesn't.
(11:50):
It's not a signifier of those things. It's a signifier that you can't
hear well, that you're bit senile, that you forget everything and you get
you get less respect, you getless you get treated with less respect overall.
And I find that that, alongwith all the other things that you've
talked about, can actually take somebodywho's older, who may have been coping
(12:13):
their whole life with the stresses aroundthem, and increases their level of depression
and their level of anxiety, andmay even intensify post traumatic stress symptoms that
they've had before, but they werehad in check because they dealt with it.
But now it being treated like achild brings it all back. Yeah
(12:35):
again, I think so. AndI think that because they're now global crises,
like you know, the military industrialcomplex is spending about a third of
the Canadian budget when we should beusing it for affordable housing or healthcare.
You have, you know, thepending potential of nuclear war. You have
(12:56):
the the government's getting spending our manyin those areas rather than spending it on
on social needs. And then therise of the right wing. When people
are afraid, they they turn toan individual solution rather than a social solution.
Do you find that as you getolder that how you deal with the
(13:20):
people around you or the issues aroundyou changes, Like for me, I
find that I'm less patient. I'mnot I'm not more mean. I'm just
less patient in terms of dealing withcertain kinds of people than I used to
be. And I find that asI get older, I'm I'm not I'm
(13:43):
not buying into the how can Iput this the idea that we have to
get along with people, or thatwe have to be nice to certain people,
or I don't know, I justI just find that that I'm less
willing to buy into that idea thatI have to make somebody like me.
(14:07):
I'm actually at the point of going, I really don't care if you like
me. This is this is whoI am, and this is what I'm
going to do. And if that'snot okay for you, that's fine,
you can go find your own thing. But I never was like that before.
And this has to do with myhistory. And you know, where
(14:28):
where I was raised, I certainlywasn't raised enough family that was a politically
active Yours sounds like a dream.But do you find that that is also
true for you, that you've gottento a place where you're just given up,
not given up, but just letgo. If some of these social
norms that we bought I bought intoanyway that I had to do. I
(14:56):
don't think it is true for me. One of the things that struck home
and Sharon Battala's comments, I'm goingto rape about this book because that's okay.
I thinks she's done such a greatjob. She talks about how as
we get older, we speak slower, we make take more time to think
about what we're saying, and Ithink it's partly because we're not as busy,
(15:22):
you know. I think that youngpeople speak a lot faster, and
I think I spoke really quickly whenI was juggling, you know, several
different issues at the same time,and that frustrates me that I think she
captured it well. That if wetake time to really think about what we're
saying, but the other person isspeaking three times as fast as that and
(15:46):
doesn't draw on the knowledge base thatwe have from art of different well in
my case, organizing, then there'sa clash, the one the young person's
really frustrating because the older person istaking time and drawing out examples that they
probably have never heard of, andthen the older person is wanting the uni
(16:07):
person to slow down and figure outhow they can work with the older person
on these issues. So I dothink that things get frustrating when people are
not realizing that there's the common groundthat can be reached and must be reached,
given the fact that the right wingis doing really well and build organizations
(16:32):
and shaping elections at all levels ofgovernment. Yes, I didn't answer you
directly, but I think I getno, that's fine, that's fine.
We only have a minute or sohere left. But I did want you
to tell us a little bit aboutwhat women Transforming Cities is about women transforming
(16:55):
cities that are now matriarch of Iwas first elected to city council. I
was invited to the World of inforumin Barcelona just become a women's pale because
they heard at work on women's issues, and I realized when I was there
that the European women were really quitefar ahead of North American women, and
(17:17):
so I thought, I'm going togo back to Kinda and create an ideal
city for women and girls. Sowhen I came back, there's only one
other city councilor, and we developedthe gender Equity strategy with the team of
staff and other wise women of thecommunity, and we set up Women Transforming
Cities International society And since then,it's we've spoken at conferences all over the
(17:41):
world. We've put an intersectional genderedlens on housing, transit, all kinds
of different issues, and we've advocatedfor women to run for public office.
And so it's it's one of anumber of organizations that around the world putting
(18:03):
that intersectional lens on urban issues whichhad never been done before. Wow,
that's wonderful. So when you saywomen transforming cities, and given the things
that you've talked about, you're sayingthat how can I put those Let make
it just think this bit, ifI just take it down to my own
(18:32):
way of looking at it, thatthese systems that are in place are built
by men for men, and youare bringing in an intersectional lens and bringing
in women's issues to make sure thatthe systems that are out there also work
for women. Is that what I'mgetting? Yeah, the same thing I
do as a Canadian co president ofthe Women's International League for Peace and Freedom.
(18:57):
We put that intersectional gendered lens onthe spending on you know, weapons
of mass destruction, the use offossil fuels, the lack of housing for
refugees and immigrants. So that's whatwe try to do is speak out for
(19:18):
peace and call for social justice andput a highlight on the implications for everyone
around the world and the billions thatare being spent by especially by the United
States, which has bases over youknow, eight hundred bases around the world,
and Canada has just agreed to spendeighty eight billion on fighter jets.
(19:40):
That and Canada. You know,it's quite horrendous how much the military industrial
complex is able to get nation states, including Canadas, spend money on things
that are you know, perpetuating war, you know, causing people to be
homeless and to be refugees, andand it's causing the climate change, and
(20:06):
people are guilting each other up allthe time about climate change. Is if
it's our individual problem, but ifyou look at what's really creating the problem.
One flyover of our fighter jet createsmore pollution than a car in a
year. We really have to lookat what is creating the problems that we
(20:26):
as older women are observing after youknow, decades of looking at social issues,
and it's it's not a problem ofthe individual, but it is our
problem. If we can't learn howto build organizations to stand up and say
what kind of world we want tolive in? Right right? Well,
well done, Thank you Alan forcoming and chatting with me about this.
(20:48):
It's been a lovely conversation. It'sbeen my pleasure. Thank you so much
for doing and thank co Op Radiofor me. I love the work that
you all do. That thank you. I will let them know and we'll
be right back. Fox up.Qui get Yuan's queen snaw Hi everybody.
My name is Qui get Us.I'm a member of the Squamish Nation and
(21:11):
the Yaglanist clan of the Higha Nation. You're listening to co Op Radio CFR
oh one hundred point five FM.We live, work play and broadcast from
the traditional ancestral and unseated territories ofthe Musqueam, Squamish and Slave with Tooth
nations. You're listening to re ThreadingMadness on Bancouver co Op Radio CFR oh
one hundred point five f M.I'm Bernardine Fox and I'm chatting with Maggie
(21:34):
Andrew. Thank you somebody I've knownfor. How long have we known each
other? Maggie, Oh my gosh, your kid was sad? What three
oh so twenty years? Yeah?My god, we really are old.
Yeah, we are so, Maggie. You're a child of divorce and you
(21:56):
were in foster care and by theage of seventeen you were on your own.
You worked up until early fifties andthen I think what you said is
a corporate takeover. Basically had youlaid off and as an older woman,
you had a hard time getting hired, so instead you bought your favorite craft
store and became a manager and businessowner. Yes, you weathered COVID as
(22:18):
that business owner owner. And you'venow looking at nearing retirement age. You've
never married, is that correct?That's correct? And no children? Nope.
So what we're talking about here iswe're talking about how as older women,
as we age and near retirement andour elder golden years or whatever they
(22:44):
call them. Now, what doesthat look like? And basically I really
want to ask how how has itaging change your mental health or how's it?
And yes, it has very I'vegotten quite distrusting of people, just
the way people they're so entitled andthey're they're you. Most people seem to
(23:11):
be users, and they look atolder women like we're stupid, like we
you know, you don't know howto do this or that, and you
like, I'm finding that with inthe banking industry, they talk down to
me like I'm an idiot, andwhich just is so irritating. In the
business world, a lot of themen do the same thing. They talk
(23:33):
down And because I'm not formally educated, that seems to have an impact on
how people view you or view me. I can only speak for myself,
but through past experience of trying to, you know, job hunting before I
bought my business, I would Ihad very good references for my work and
(24:00):
tried to get work and I couldn'tbecause you don't have the education. We
need to have educated people, andit's like, you know, practical experience
is a lot more important in myview than a certificate. But yeah,
and as I've gotten older, evenwith the like the medical profession. Right
(24:22):
now, I've been going through somehealth issues with gallbladder and a kidney stone
and stuff, and I'm supposed tohave some work something done. It comes
to a screeching halt because the anestatistsees something in my chart that he doesn't
like that from like four years ago, I've gone through like six doctors.
How come nobody has seen it,and then this guy talks to me like,
(24:45):
I'm pardon me. I know thisis politically incorrect, but speaks to
me like I'm retarded, and itjust yeah. So my mental health right
now is like I'm just a finea thin line of snapping on somebody right
right. Have you been able toresolve your medical issue so that you can
(25:07):
get the surgery you're looking for orwhat happened to you talked to the doctors.
Well, I haven't talked to thedoctors. I've got an appointment with
an internist on Tuesday I had aweek ago. The receptionist from this rapid
access clinic called me and said,you know, we can book you for
(25:32):
next Tuesday. Now. To me, next Tuesday would be the tuesday coming
up, right, And my faultI should have said, okay, this
date, but I went with nextTuesday, right. So I made arrangements
to have my have the store staffedso that I could devote myself to this
(25:56):
call. And I'm waiting. It'ssupposed to be ten five, waiting and
waiting. Finally, at eleven thirty, I phone, we don't have you
booked for today, And I said, that's funny, and I said I.
When I talked to the girl lastweek, she said next Tuesday.
I said, make sure it's onmy cell phone, and so she checked
(26:18):
my cell number. No nothing,So I said, well for gig goals,
how about if you checked my homenumber. So I give my home
number. Yeah, it's booked forTuesday, September fifth on my home phone.
So the incompetence everywhere is just amazing. So you think that has to
do with your age or was thatjust something that is happening out there in
(26:38):
the medical profession at this point inour lives. Yeah, I don't think.
Yeah, it's probably not my age. I just it just is because
I'm getting older, I'm getting lesspatient. Yeah, but still on that
too, I don't have the samepatience as I used to have. I
you know, and of course peopletell me all the time, you are
(26:59):
so paid, you know, theyso tolerant of people with different views and
everything, and and I like thatabout myself. But there are points where
I will no longer put up withwhat I used to put up with,
well exactly just and I think partof that is that I've gotten to an
age where I don't I don't questionmyself the same way that I did when
(27:19):
I was younger. That said,I do think that people do question older
people more than they do younger people. Right that they question our memory,
they question our our politics, theyquestion are are whatever? Well, they
don't take us serious because we're we'reold and getting a little scene now.
(27:41):
And I you know, I admitI'm getting very forgetful. The biggest lie
I tell myself is I'll remember andI don't forget. What if? What
if you look at it this way, Maggie, we are I'm like almost
sixty five. I have sixty fiveyears of memory and information and knowledge and
(28:03):
you know, a lifetime of birthdaysand whatever in my head like it's bursting,
Like I don't have much more roomto put stuff. I often say,
look, if your name is John, I will not remember it.
My John list on the shelf isfull. I don't have any more room
for people named John, and soI will probably forget your name. And
(28:27):
that's what I feel like. It'slike I have so much in there.
If you're twenty, I mean,you don't have as much sitting in your
long term memory bangs. Yeah,well, I've got a little notebook now
that I try and remember to writestuff in it because I will forget,
and I especially, you know,with running the store and dealing with customers,
(28:48):
you know, And then they say, remember that thing that I bought
two weeks ago? And I lookat them and I'm like, you're serious,
right, yeah, you know,do you remember what paper that was?
And I'm like, I don't rememberwhat I did two seconds ago,
and you want me to remember somethingyou but two weeks ago. But that
could just be an egocentric kind ofperson that thinks that your whole life only
(29:12):
exists in relationship to her or him. They're all that way, it seems.
I'm starting to One of my staffjust tells me, I hate people.
I'm tired of people in today.And I'm like, yeah, I'm
like that too. But you know, when you're doing what we do,
we have to put that kind ofstuff aside. So do you feel that
(29:33):
that aging, you know, andthe accumulation of all the things that we've
gone through, has that impacted yourmental health in terms of like one of
the things they say about women andtheir mental health as they get older is
that the primary things they deal withour anxiety, depression, and post traumatic
stress, which I think that itprobably dealt with anxiety, depression and post
(29:59):
my stress our whole lives. We'rejust still dealing with it when we're anxious,
when we're aging. So is thatsomething that you deal with at all?
Yes, definitely, definitely have anissue with anxiety. I've had a
few anxiety attacks where I thought,honestly, I thought I was having a
jammer and I'm oh, heart attack, Oh okay, all right, yeah,
(30:21):
And so I have gone into thehospital for you know, thinking that
that's what was happening, and they'verun all the tests and they said,
no, you're fine because they cando it. They can tell just by
doing blood tests, the enzymes inyour blood. But you know, I've
had all these different tests and theysay, you're fine, there's there's nothing
wrong with your heart. So theygive me a prescription for ad Evan and
(30:44):
you know, but I only geta prescription for like twelve because we don't
want you to overdo it. AndI'm like, yeah, no problem.
So and then you know, stress. Stress is huge, you know in
my life, you know, becausebeing in retail and all the issues with
just with the money flow, makingsure that you've got money to pay your
(31:07):
staff, money to pay the rent, and you know, that's so stressful,
and it's like, I've got totry and find some way of lowering
my stress level. But unless somebodycomes and drops a million bucks on me,
that's not going to happen. Ithink so, So retirement is the
next best thing, the thing that'snot lost on me when when I see
(31:33):
these reports that this is what olderwomen are dealing with in terms of depression,
anxiety, and postraumatic stresses, thatthey are all things to do with
trauma. And you and I havegrown up in a society that, for
the most part, you know,women, people who are female, have
grown up being traumatized, being traumatizedby a society. We grew up in
(31:56):
our family, we grew up inyou know, by the men that we've
been around in our lives, youknow, and how we've been treated.
And I don't know your personal life, I know mine, and I look
at those and I think those areall the things that people who've been traumatized
are going to be dealing with.Yeah. Yeah, So it just means
that we just haven't given women enoughaccess to mental health resources so that they
(32:22):
can actually resolve the things that haveto do with trauma that would get us
to our old age without being depressedand anxious in coping with post traumatic stress.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, finallydealing with some something that happened to
me back in nineteen eighty six,and it's you know, I'm finally able
(32:44):
to put that to rest because theindividuals involved have passed now. So I'm
so sorry you had to wait forthem to die. I know, I
know, and it's I mean thatyou shouldn't have to, but you know,
and fortunately the way things are inour in our world and dealing with
(33:06):
family members, it uh, youknow, if you bring it out then
you're you're hard and feathered kind ofthing. So but we won't go into
that. Isn't it also true thatthey say, at least where I grew
up, you can't speak ill ofthe dead. So even if in my
situation where I grew up, dyingwould not give their victims a safe place
(33:34):
to start dealing with things, becausethen you're speaking ill of the dead.
Yeah, well I don't. Yeah, I don't speak about it, but
you know, about them personally.But the fact that they're dead now just
gives me soulless. So in safety, that makes yes, Yeah, I
don't have to see them, becauseI had to still see this this one
(33:57):
individual and try and be nice.And I could tell, you know,
by the way he was that hewas just loving it because he knew what
he had done, and I couldn'tsay anything. Oh my god. Yeah,
so we'll talk about it another day, Yes, yes we will.
But I you know, I havemy own version of that. I had
somebody in my family that has assaultedme as a teenager, and my mother
(34:22):
actually said, you know, ifyou were nicer to him and maybe gave
him a birthday card or an anniversarycard for his marriage, then you know,
you know, maybe it would bebetter. Yeah, thanks mom,
My god. I mean, shedid not know, and I had not
(34:43):
told her. But the question wasn'twhat's what's the problem here? It was
decided without any knowledge that I wasthe problem and I needed to be nicer
to him. And so I knowexactly what you're talking about, this attitude.
You know, we we have awhole generation of women and maybe two
generations of women who have been andmore. I mean, but there may
(35:07):
not be alive anymore that have beenraised to no matter what happens to you
by a man you'd be nice tohim and you don't say anything, and
you just be pleasant, and andand and and yes, men knew that,
so like yours was probably really revelingin the fact that you were,
(35:29):
you know, you were still beingnice to him. Yep. And yeah,
yeah, I'm sorry that happened toyou. Well, yes, thank
you. Yeah, But I meanit's the thing. You can't change it.
You have to you have to learnI won't say accept it, but
you have to learn to live withit, not let it eat you from
the inside out. Yeah, yeah, you process it exactly, but you
(35:53):
know, and and unfortunate, youknow that that happened, But there's you
know, it happens in various ways, or has happened to me in various
ways through the years, with likewithin the business world, and that you
know, like I was saying earlierabout the education issue, you know,
I knew I did good work.And you know, I worked at various
(36:16):
places over the years after being laidoff from my dream job that you know,
thirteen years and it was a fabulousjob. And then through a corporate
takeover. Yeah, there was atleast seventy five percent of the staff were
laid off and you know, Itried getting work in the same industry,
(36:39):
but by this time they're doing thewhole thing. You know, HR has
their little handbook and these are thecriteria that we need you to fit.
And because I didn't have post secondaryeducation, and you know, some of
the guys, like I tried justdoesn't matter that you know or that I
say where, but Delta Port workingout at the terminal would have been a
(37:05):
good fit working in there. AndI knew all of the guys that I
had the interview with because I'm sittingon one side of the boardroom and three
guys are sitting on the other side, and I had worked with them all
in the past. And you know, one of the guys, Doug,
says, you know, Maggie,you would be ideal, and so you
know, we're talking, and Ifelt really good about it. And then
(37:27):
he phoned me a little while laterand he says, you know, and
I didn't want to keep you hanging, he says, excuse me, He
says, you give great interview,Maggie, he says, and you've got
all the experience that we want,but HR will not let us hire you
because you do not have the education. And I said, practical experience doesn't
(37:51):
trump education, and he says,unfortunately, no, not in the the
corporate end of things. They wantto see people that have the education.
And I said, but they don'tknow what they're doing, right, this
is exactly but we can train themlike that makes no sense. I mean,
(38:13):
of course, I'm sorry to interruptyou, but that's kind of part
of what happens with older people,right, And it's not just women.
I'm sure it happens with other people. When we were younger, all we
needed was a high school diploma.That's what they said. Get your high
school diploma and you'll be fine.But then it changed over that time frame,
and so by the time you hitfifty, it's changed and you kind
(38:34):
of out there in the cold.We just have to stop here, Maggie.
I'm sorry, but thank you forthis conversation. I appreciate it,
and we'll be right back footma.The Greater Vancouver Feedbank has been providing support
for our cities for almost forty yearsand has been vital to help in thousands
of community members through the COVID nineteencrisis. To find out how you might
(38:55):
benefit from the Greater Vancouver Food Banksservices, well. To learn how you
might donate money for volunteer your time, please visit their website at Foodbank dot
BC dot c A. You're listeningto Rethreating Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
cfr O one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernadine Fox and right now I'm
(39:16):
speaking with Eileen Hoyter. Eileen,did I say your last name? Right?
Holder? Is the pronunciation here?It's Hitta and German? But it's
good, Okay, all right,that's good. So, just as a
disclosure, Eileen and I knew eachother way back in the film industry when
(39:37):
I was there and she was there, and I have worked on I think
a few films, maybe not films, maybe commercials together more like it.
So, Eileen, we're talking aboutbeing older as a female person in this
planet, on this planet. Whatis it like for you getting to this
(39:59):
age? I think you were aboutthe same me, just me. You're
about sixty five? Am I right? No, I'm only sixty four.
I'll be sixty five in January.Okay, you're a young man, then
I'll yes, you are just ababy. And of course as we get
older, life tends to go faster. So January is like tomorrow. I
(40:24):
know I'm already planning Christmas and allof that right now. I can't believe
it. I'm worse than the stores. That's okay, but you have reason
to be planning those things. Idon't know. So we'll just kind of
skip ahead in this story because rightnow, even though you're in Vancouver today,
you normally live in Mexico because youhave a B and B and a
(40:45):
restaurant and a bar and a hotel. Am I right, yes, we
we kind of do the six monthshere six months there. I have a
little hotel. It sleeps a tenfull on a twenty seven mile beach in
the middle of nowhere where there's morepelicans and dolphins and whales and people.
(41:07):
And we built it in well,it will be ten years next year.
I built in twenty fourteen. Andwe have a little restaurant called a Chubby
Mermaid. And that keeps me busy. Since I kind of slowed down in
the film industry, I'm still doinga little bit in the film industry,
but I'm basically, you know,I'm not doing a production anymore like that.
(41:30):
I'm working with two other producers ona script right now. But you
can do that from anywhere. Yes, you can do lots of things from
anywhere. That's true. Now Iknow everything. I'm not sure you can
take photographs on set from anywhere?Can you? Probably not? Probably not.
(41:52):
But other than that, you cando a lot of stuff. I
mean, even to the point thatI have a couple of little apartments in
Vancouver and when I'm in Mexico,I can phone somebody and get them to
do the repairs and pay them online. And you don't need to be there
anymore, No, you don't.You just need to be able to have
people you trust in whatever location you'reworking with. So you were in the
(42:15):
film industry for quite some time.When did you start? Eighty three?
Unbelievable. As a matter of fact, I'm in Vancouver right now for the
Beach Combers reunion. Oh my god. My first sold in the film industry
was working on the Beachcombers. Wow. And that that Beach Combers that they
(42:35):
went on for a long time,didn't they? How long were they?
They were the longest running TV seriesin Canada. They still are if I'm
not mistaken, it's eighteen years.But I don't don't hold me in that
Wow. And you also as ayoung woman in the early nineties was also
and you can correct me on thetime if I'm not remembering it right,
(42:59):
you also purchase property, but youhad difficulties as a woman purchasing properly,
if I believe, well, it'sinteresting. Yeah, in the eighty nine
ninety I had fifty percent down onan apartment, but they wouldn't give me
a mortgage as a single female inthe film industry. I guess it wasn't
(43:20):
considered stable enough. And they saidif my father co signed, we could
get the apartment taken care of.And I was much too stubborn at that
age to have my father co signed, so I had to get the guy
to write a little letter saying,yes, we see a long and fruitful
future with Eileen. And then theygave me a mortgage. But it wasn't
just the mortgage. It was,you know, getting interim financing for a
(43:45):
series I was producing when the companywas create her HR Productions and I was
doing a serious women in the Artsin Canada, and they wanted to and
they they wrote the letter dear sir, as if no woman would be wanting,
you know, a million dollars ininterim financing for goodness sake, and
(44:08):
this was the bank that was doingthat that. Sorry, this was the
bank that was doing that. Yes, this was the bank that was doing
that sending me a letter to seeif I would like interim financing, which
I already had and with the samebank. And so I wrote the lady
who wrote me this letter, dearsir, a letter, or I phoned
(44:28):
her and I said, you know, I deal with your bank, and
I deal with a guy I've beendealing with for many, many years,
and his name is Bernard, andhe never calls me sir. But I
mean even the real estate deals,I hate to say it, like the
contracts would say he the purchaser.He never said she. It was to
(44:51):
sir he and I refused to signthese things until they all crossed them all
out and changed them to they orgender neutral. Right. I actually bought
a house with a woman in nineteenninety eight, and we found that there
were a lot of instances where webelieved that we weren't being showed places or
(45:15):
being taken seriously as buyers because wewere female, even in nineteen ninety eight,
and of course it's four years agowhen I sold my property and I
was looking for a new realtor,and I asked people I knew who had
bought and they suggested people. Andthis one realtor came to the house and
(45:36):
he said, well, I'd liketo speak to your husband, and I
said, well, the property isin my name and he's not even here.
He was down in Mexico. Andit was like, well, we
just don't want anything going wrong.Halfway through and I said, what can
go wrong? The properties in myname, I am the seller. And
they still wanted to talk to myhusband. It was like infuriating. Obviously
(45:57):
he did not get the realtor,no kidding. It's just and I think
that people don't. I mean,we're kind of getting it again seeing what's
happening in the States around abortion issuesand LGBTQ issues, But people don't really
remember that. I know when Iwas a kid, women didn't own property.
(46:20):
You couldn't own property, you couldn'thave a credit card in your name.
I spoke with this with Ellen justbefore you. You know how,
we didn't have credit, We didn'teven we didn't get the right to our
own name. My mother's name cameas missus and her husband's name not her
name. She didn't even exist,you know. So we we are right
(46:42):
now, even in twenty twenty three, only a few decades beyond a time
when we really didn't have human rightsthe same way that men did. And
these are little sort of leftover thingsthat have been happening, and it has
been changing, it has been gettingbetter. It is disconcerting what's happening in
the United States and how far thatwill go and whether or not it'll eventually
(47:06):
find its way up here in Canada. We'll be having the same fights,
I certainly hope not. Well.I've been interesting because my godmother, who
has now passed away at least twentyyears, but my godmother for the first
four years of her life was nota person, right because and you were
the property of your parents or yourhusband exactly. And that that's happened within
(47:31):
my lifetime. I always found thatso shocking that that that could have happened,
or would have happened, or evenwas existed within my lifetime. You
know, when I separated from myhusband, the one that I actually legally
married, I was separated. Ihad moved an entire province. I had
(47:55):
left him because he was a batterer, and I went to change my name
and the vital statistics here. NBCtold me that I could not get my
name changed legally unless I had hispermission. Oh my goodness, Well things
they changed. I was president ofWomen in Film for many years in Bankcouver
(48:19):
and I was president of International Womenin Film, and it was, I
mean still in the film industry.You know, it's something like four percent
or directors or women, but it'sso ingrained. You know, I used
to teach show. I used torun the bank or Film school and I
used to teach there, and youknow, they would say the producer he,
(48:40):
and the script supervisor she. Itwas just like ingrained. And to
break those kind of stereotypes, andnot only just in the film innistry,
in the in you know, I'mdoing a project now on the first female
pilot commercial pilot in South Africa thathappened in the seventies and what her experiences
(49:02):
were and it's and it still hasn'tchanged. If you look at how many
women pilots are today compared to mailpilots commercial pilots, the numbers staggering.
Yeah, it really is. We'vewe've come a long way, and yet
we haven't come far enough that wecan rest on our laurels that it's not
(49:25):
going to revert back. We justcan't. We just can't. I don't.
I'm glad you're doing that project though, Thank you for doing that.
You are described as an extrovert,and you certainly have been a not loud
(49:45):
as in volume, but loud asin personages, personage, personage. Person
Okay, that word is not goingto come out of my mouth today,
Oh dear, but you alloud personYou're not loud as emboliant, but you're
You're noticeable. You're there. You'rewhat six foot something, six foot one,
(50:07):
six foot one, yeah, anddefinitely definitely out there in that sense
of not. I mean my neighborin Mexico, My place is blue,
orange and all sorts of colors,and his place is beige. And he
used to always come to me andsay, you're not afraid of color,
are you? And and somebody quotedand I can't remember who that was,
(50:30):
says you can't dress a peacock inbeige. Well, that's kind of I
thought, a really interesting analogy.Because I love bright colors. That's probably
why I was tracted to going toMexico. My place is bright colors.
Everything is bright, and you know, and I'm definitely not afraid of color.
(50:50):
I've been wearing purple since I wasin my teen so to speak,
yes, yes, and wearing purpleis a meaningful statement. Thank you.
There are many of my readers thatare going to understand that concept for sure.
So you could I say then thatwho you are now as an older
woman is the same as who youwere when you were in your twenties and
(51:14):
thirties. Have you changed? Well, it's interesting because I did it.
One of the first films I everdid was a documentary on living in a
care home and a positive view toliving in a care home. And I
remember, like my grandparents were inEurope, and so I didn't really spend
a lot of time with elderly peopleas a child. And when I did
(51:36):
this film, you know, Iwas somewhat uncomfortable spending time with elderly people
because I just had never done it. And I remember talking to a gentleman.
He was about eighty years old,and he was playing chess and I
was filming this sequence with him,and he said, you know what,
I've been playing chess and listening toclassical music since I was in my twenties.
Now suddenly I'm in my eighties.I'm eighty six, and they expect
(51:59):
me to play ball and all thesecrazy games. I never did it when
I was young, Why would Ido it now? And that really resonated
with me because I truly believe thatwho you are in your twenties, you
know whatever, or your early thirtiesis who you're going to be in your
eighties. It's not like you gothrough the sudden change where you you If
(52:22):
you're a kind of crazy, outgoingperson in your twenties, it's not going
to change in your eighties. You'restill going to be a kind of a
crazy, outgoing, elderly person less, but it's not going to change your
fabric of who you are. AndI think that really interesting and I found
that to be true because I mean, I'm sixty four, but I don't
(52:45):
feel like I'm sixty four. Iprobably don't act like I'm sixty four.
I think generationally we've changed a lotsince what our parents were at sixty four.
Absolutely, for our parents was quiteold, and now it's we are
not aging in the same way.I don't think, I think mentally are
not aging in the same way.And so therefore we don't our lives don't
(53:07):
represent what there's did at this ageas well. I do agree with you,
I don't. I think the fabricof who we are and our bones
it doesn't change. If you're anintrovert, you're going to be an introvert.
If you're an extrovert, you're justgoing to stay that way. I
think, do you think people changein terms of resolving trauma or coming to
a place in their lives where thevalues they held or thought they held or
(53:30):
thought they had to hold when theywere thirty no longer apply when you're sixty
four. So so, for instance, somebody who was raised to believe that,
and that happened a lot in ourage group. Maybe not for you,
but I know a lot of peoplethey were raised to be submissive towards
(53:51):
men. I eat, Men needto like me, or else I can't
eat or sleep or get a jobor whatever. And we get to a
place where you're older women are sayingI don't have to do that anymore.
I don't really give a crap whetheror not they like me or not anymore.
Like it's just it's a liberating,freeing concept. And I don't think
that ever was true for you.Well, you know, it's interesting,
(54:13):
and I think being six foot onehas something to do with that in the
sense that, you know, Igrew up where, you know, I'd
have girlfriends who are in their fivefoot six, five foot seven or whatever,
and they'd say, oh, well, you know, I'm not going
to go out with a man who'snot six. You know, they had
all these requirements of height, etcetera, et cetera. I'm six foot
(54:35):
one. You know, I usedto say to a guy, if you
can't they used to always ask meto take off my high heels to go
dancing, like if I was wantingto take off your shoes, and I'd
say, I'm not taking off myshoes. And but it was always like
I used to say, if youcan't handle my height, that's just mother
nature warning you to run away now, because it's like, if you can't
even handle my height, there's noway you're going to be able to handle
(54:58):
me. And it's it's a verysing place that you come from because I
didn't fit the norm. Even Iwas five foot six and grade three,
I was six feet by Grade seven. I didn't fit the norm. You
know. We used to looking upin elementary school by height. It was
all the girls, all the boys, and me. So it was always
(55:21):
coming from a different point where Ididn't fit in physically to what I should
have been. The nice sweet nobodyused to when I started in the film
industreet, nobody could pat me onthe head and say, oh, you
nice little girl coming on to setkind of, you know. I mean,
that does change you on a certainlevel. But but also it's just,
(55:45):
you know, my personality. Iworked in the film industry many many
you know shows I worked on.I was the only female on set.
You know, you you came froma different perspective of what it was,
you know, I, you know, working with men all the time,
so to speak. So maybe that'sa lot to do with what I saw
(56:07):
and how I expected to be treated, and you know, what was acceptable
or not acceptable to me. Imean, back then, good sakes,
you used to I remember one guysaying to me on set and he said,
you don't like men, do you? And I said, well,
yes I do. And he said, well, how come you are always
(56:28):
giving us such a hard time?And I said, because I'm the only
female here who has to represent thewhole female end And you know, this
was in the days when we'd besitting and having lunch and they'd be watching
women's you know, kids walking byand commenting while I'm still sitting at the
table. Yeah, that doesn't rememberthat time, not even some No,
(56:50):
not good, not cool. Iremember it. It was a hard We
had to deal with a lot,and we were told, actually, you're
gonna working on man's field. You'regonna have to put up with that,
and so wrong. Anyway, Imean, thank you so much for chatting
with me about this. This wasa wonderful addition to this show. I
appreciate it. It was nice toconnect with you again, and I wish
(57:12):
you yeah in your endeavors. ThankMexico. Where is your in Mexico.
It's near months and Ao, ortwenty minutes from the months in Ao airport.
If you're ever in Mexico, comeon down. We have a turtle
sanctuary. We collect turtle eggs.We're very quiet, relaxed spot Villa Star
of the Sea, and it's it'sa great place to hang. So it's
(57:35):
called the Villa Star of the Sea. Villa Star of the Sea. Okay,
that's the place when I'm no airportokay, I will when I'm in
Mexico, I will come visit.Thank you, kay, okay, chatting,
okay, thank you. All right, We'll talk to you soon.
Bybye, and that's our show.We're Threading Madness has now aired on Vancouver
(57:59):
Corporate d O cfr O one hundredpoint five FM on Tuesdays at five pm,
on CJUM in Winnipeg on Monday atnine am, and then on c
k XU in Lethbridge on Wednesdays atone pm. You can also find us
on the Mental Health Radio Network andwherever you download your podcasts. My thanks
to Ellen Woodsworth, Maggie Andrew,and Aileen Horder for taking the time out
(58:21):
of their busy days to chat withme. Music today was by Sherry Ulrich.
More importantly, my thanks goes oarto you for joining us today.
Stay safe out there. You've justlistened to Rethreading Madness, where we dare
to change how we think about mentalhealth. We air live on Vancouver Collip
Radio cf O one hundred point fiveFM every Tuesday at five pm, or
(58:44):
online at coop radio dot org.If you have questions or feedback about this
program, or want to share yourstory or have something to say to us,
We want to hear from you.You can reach us by email rethreading
Madness at coop radio dot org.This is Bernadine Fox. We'll be back
next week. Until that, whenI've never been further, know what the
(59:09):
hell I'm gonna do when I can'tseem to find my way under over you,
just when I'm ready to give upthe light they are when we turn
(59:31):
on the lights and it's all right, it's all right. Don't you be
all right? Why do I alwaysbelieve it when you tell everything's gonna be our brain
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