July 29, 2025 • 60 mins
Cass Freeman is an Improviser, Activist, Journalist and all-round funny person. She joins us to talk about the benefits of Improv theatre for our mental health. She teaches Improv and is setting up class starting in September specifically for folks with mental health challenges. She chats with Bernadine about what Improv is, why its important, and how it can help all of us overcome fear, embrace positivity and learn to inspire others. Classes are open to anyone who self-identifies as living with a mental health challenge and she does not require any disclosures.
Then Shanice Docksin joins Bernadine for a very serious conversation about her experience with therapy abuse and exploitation. And while that is what we are going to talk about here, that is not the most important thing about Shanice. She is a leading Black businessewoman who has experienced her fair share of failures, challenges, and success. She transformed herself from a broken-home mentality to one of Oklahoma City’s very own published authors whose published works include "Unplugged". Shanice is also a public speaker, coach, and a mental health/domestic violence advocate. Shanice is one of those examples that tells us those who have been victimized by therapy abuse and exploitation are not chosen because they poor fragile, broken people.
Music by Shari Ulrich, Kelly Clarkson, and Sons of Legions
Then Shanice Docksin joins Bernadine for a very serious conversation about her experience with therapy abuse and exploitation. And while that is what we are going to talk about here, that is not the most important thing about Shanice. She is a leading Black businessewoman who has experienced her fair share of failures, challenges, and success. She transformed herself from a broken-home mentality to one of Oklahoma City’s very own published authors whose published works include "Unplugged". Shanice is also a public speaker, coach, and a mental health/domestic violence advocate. Shanice is one of those examples that tells us those who have been victimized by therapy abuse and exploitation are not chosen because they poor fragile, broken people.
Music by Shari Ulrich, Kelly Clarkson, and Sons of Legions
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Vancouver call op Radio cfr OH one
hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Muscreham and sligh Wey
Tooth nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernardine Fox,
and this is this show that dares to change how
we think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
When Liver been fer no, what the hell I'm gonna
do when I can't see a fine away under over.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver Call Radio cfr
OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox, and
today I have the pleasure of speaking with Cass Freeman,
who's starting a project on improv for folks who live
with mental health challenges. So welcome, Sandra. Can you tell
us a little bit about who you are?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Sure? I'm a journalist and I perform improvisation and I
teach improvisation. That I first got into it during the
nineteen eighties, actually when I was an injured dancer, an
injured ballet dancer, and I went to something called Vancouver
(01:29):
Theater Sports, which is the Improv Center today. And I
watched the show and I thought to myself, I can
do that. So I did.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
And that was what year that?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Oh my goodness, that must have been like nineteen eighty five.
So I'm quite. I'm quite. I'm ancient.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Oh no, not as ancient as may I'm that, but
that's okay, Okay, ancient is good. So so you were
a ballerina. You entered improv while you were healing. What
did you What did you like about improv?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I think what I've always liked about improv is that
you're in the moment, so you're not thinking about anything
that has to do with your life at all. You
can just leave your life behind you completely. You can
be anyone on stage. You can even play a table
(02:28):
or I've seen someone play a birthday cake. You know,
someone just walked on and blew out the candles on
their head and that was that was quite quite a
bit of fun.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Okay. So I have a dumb question, but it's one
that I've always had sitting and watching improv and people
acting as a birthday cake. Acting in my very naive brain,
because I'm not an actor, means that you have to
embody a character. How do you embody the character of
a birthday cake.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Oh well, you would just I think what she did
is she does put her arms in front of her
It's kind of hard to describe on radio. But and
then or she might have actually put the like her
hands as candles on top of her head. Okay, I'm
(03:21):
not sure that someone came in and blew them out.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So it's more about portraying the visual part of being
a k a birthdicate.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah, I mean that's you know, but that doesn't happen
too often. Mostly what happens is that you will walk
on with a certain character. And that's that's what I
teach in the class, is how to embody a character.
And you know, in order to do that, you have
to be able to express the emotions on stage. You
(03:54):
might want to if it's comedy, you might want to
choose an over the top character and you you know,
so you're using body language and your voice to do that.
And then audiences love this. I'm not sure why, but
if someone else walks on who's like, we call them
(04:16):
a matching character. So if they come on and they're
also choosing your body language and your tone of voice,
the audience just seems to really like that experience, and
of course you have to you know, build scene while
you're while you're up there.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
And what does that mean build scene?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Well, build I mean essentially improv is spontaneous storytelling. So
you know, if I walk on stage and I say
to you, hey, Frank, it's seign, You're immediately Frank it Steigin.
That's who you are if you accept that, and you
can say something back to me like oh, hey, Dracula,
and then of course I have to be Dracula, and
(05:01):
then we just we find something and it could be
really anything. You know, they might want to talk about
their dark past or they might want to, I don't know,
go out into the world and try to be normal.
It's uh, it really depends. It really depends on the
(05:23):
person on the people on stage. And so the most
important thing about improv is teamwork. So you have to
you're you are there on stage to support the other
person and help them build a scene or be in
an improv game with them, and so that that's primarily
(05:50):
what a lot of the improv classes I teach are about.
They're about they're about teamwork, and that also you know,
helps people get rid of their stage fright because they're
not focusing on themselves, They're focusing on the other person
who's on stage with them.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah. I have a child that went through a lot
of theater and stage up until into her twenties. Musical theater, YadA, YadA.
And one of the things that impressed the hell out
of me as a stage quote mom my grandchild, but
still my child.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Was the.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Camaraderie of the actors on stage. And how not just
in the rehearsal part of it, but how when you're
on stage, the teamwork and the watching each other's back
and making sure everybody was okay and making sure everybody
had their line or filling in or you know, doing
a little improv on stage because somebody got stuck somewhere
(06:50):
was incredible. It was like, oh my god. Every kid
in the world should have this opportunity to experience this
form of teamwork with where everybody is working towards the
same goal and they're the micro behavioral, interpersonal stuff is
(07:10):
pushed out of the way to to make this goal happen.
I was blown away.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Well that's what we you know, That's why the first
wee thing we say to people in our classes. I
actually teach with my husband sometimes, so we say welcome
to your new improv family, because we do want those
relationships to form, and especially you know, if you're teaching
people with mental health issues or addiction issues, they can
(07:44):
often be quite isolated. So we want them to socialize
in our classes and meet each other and support each other.
So that's what we's that's our goal in the classes.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So when we talk about the history of improv, I
must have met having gone to improv. I really don't
understand it as an audience member what I'm looking at
or why this is important. So if we look at
the history of improv, is it purely entertainment just watching
people trying to grasp something and play it out on
(08:18):
stage or was there another purpose for it or was
it just purely entertainment.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
No, I don't think it's it's purely entertainment. It's it's
a way for people to bond on stage and it's
a way to engage the audience and maybe take them
somewhere they've never been before. Right, So you know, I
mean I studied with Keith Johnstone who lived in Calgary.
(08:49):
He's passed away unfortunately, but he taught improv around the world,
and he's the creator of theater sports. So it's it's
really I can't really express what I was going to
(09:10):
say here. It's it should be just a place, you know,
where an audience can feel safe and see people on
stage who are reflecting maybe what they go through in
their so called normal lives, but also to take them
(09:31):
places where they've never been before. So, you know, imagination
is pretty key if you're if you're a.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Performer, absolutely when you talk about expressing emotions on stage.
And I'm kind of talking a little bit here about
who can do theater sports, and of course one would
hope anybody can do theater sports. But I'm just going
to put myself into the mix here. I you know,
(10:01):
I'm very I can be very exuberant, I can be
very outgoing. I can be a bit of an extrovert,
but ultimately, truthfully, I am an intropert and the idea
of getting on stage and expressing emotions is a little
terrifying to tight you the truth. So who is in
(10:25):
prov theater for?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Well, if you're talking about classes is for everyone. You know,
I've had very introverted and nervous people in my classes,
and by the end of like the seven or eight
part series of classes. They're quite relaxed and they're laughing.
So I think, you know, during the first class, that's
(10:50):
the time where we get people doing group improv games,
so you're not really on the spot for very long.
You're we're going around a circle or you're in pairs
trying out different exercises. You talk about emotions, and there's
(11:11):
an emotional game we like to play called It's Tuesday,
and involves two people facing each other and one of
them says it's Tuesday, and the other person has to
do like maybe just a thirty second monologue, like choose
an emotion and go with that emotion and talk about
(11:35):
why it's important that today is Tuesday. So, for example,
I mean, it could be sad, happy, whatever you like,
and it would go something like this. So if you
would say to me, it's Tuesday, then I might go,
it's Tuesday. Oh my god, Tuesday. I'm a be laundry
(11:56):
last Tuesday. I can't believe it. Oh whoa, it's Tuesday again.
And then and then I would say to you, it's Tuesday,
and you would try to tell a little story with
an emotion, so it's it's not. You know, I don't
(12:16):
think of it as you know, in a classroom, you're
not on the stage, so there's not that pressure of
having an audience watching you. And then also, you know,
if we say to people, if you're not comfortable doing
this gamer exercise, you know, that's fine. You can sit out,
or you can go for a walk. Also, I mean,
(12:37):
it's really important to create safety in the classroom. So
if at any time people are doing an exercise or
a game or a scene and they feel really uncomfortable
and they might not even know why, they can just
say stop and then they will either talk about why
(12:59):
it's bothered them, or they'll take a break, or they'll
take a break with their their improv body. I think
I'm gonna pair people up and have people take care
of each other that way, so that creates a place
where people can relax and feel comfortable and you know,
(13:23):
and frankly and surprise themselves with with what what they're
doing and what they're saying.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
You do develop classes for improv for folks who have
mental health challenges, are all improv classes Like what you're
talking about or is what you're talking about what you
have implemented in your classes for folks with mental health challenges.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
No, we create that safety in all the classes that okay, yeah, yeah,
but you know we but it just seems, you know what,
it seems like people with mental health issues they just
need more breaks. To be honest with you, that's really
all they need, and they need that opportunity to be
able to walk out and walk back in.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah. Honestly, you're talking about something that I believe is
true about all people. So so your program is set
up for folks with mental health challenges, and how how
do you find that people find you? What kind of
folks come to your classes?
Speaker 3 (14:34):
You know, I don't there's no disclosure needed, so I
don't often find out what is going on with people.
But I do know that, you know, we've had people
with schizophrenia, with like there terrible depression, people with addictions
to alcohol. I guess in that case that was something
(14:59):
in his past, luckily for him. But yeah, I mean,
it's it's really you know, a privilege to teach people
who have been through what I call mental hell, because
(15:21):
you know, these are people who kind of have fought
against the odds for some of them a very very
long time.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
They've been you know.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Psychiatrized and told that they yo psych I just tell
you what's wrong with you, not what's right with you. So,
you know, a lot of learning and prop involves learning
what's right with you. You know, how how you can
express yourself in a very positive way, and like I said,
(16:02):
how you might surprise yourself with the kinds of stories
that you end up telling or the kind of the
kind of scenes that you put together with other people.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
I always talk about how we've pathologized trauma in our society,
and part of what you're talking about there in terms
of pathologize, he's also not pathologized psychiatrized people. When you
pathologize trauma, what you've done is you've taken a normal
response to being traumatized and called it crazy. And when
(16:38):
you put folks together who have experienced that, part of
it's not just your story that you're telling, it's hearing
other people's stories who are telling those stories that are
your stories, and how healing that can be for people.
So I imagine that also happens in your group as well.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Yeah, it's really quite open about you know, what subjects
they want and was about. I'd be very happy if
if if people it seems, you know, making fun of
the mental health system. Yeah, that would be that would
be uh, that would be great to see.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Oh yeah, And part of what happens when folks who
have mental health challenges come together and there is no
therapist in the room is they also make fun of
themselves and their diagnosis and who they are. And that
kind of humor is priceless. It's really priceless and healing.
It is very healing. So that's hope they do that
(17:34):
as well. So when we look at one in two
in the general population to have a mental health challenge,
that means that no matter what class you go into,
you are more than likely to be in a room
with somebody who has a mental health challenge that can
be schizophrenia, because schizophrenia is not something that is always
(17:57):
so noticeable as people are led to believe by our
mainstream popular culture. So what do you find that considering
you were one of the people that might know if
somebody has has a diagnosis like that, are there problems
that come up in those classes or are they just
(18:18):
simply a part of the class.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, I haven't you know. So we've run the program
once before. We ran it for I guess nine weeks
and no, I mean people when we did dramatic improv. Yeah,
people were getting little bit triggered and had to leave.
But I don't anticipate that in a comedy class, right,
(18:42):
And I don't think anything anything really happened. I mean,
I think that you know, what happened last year is
that people got to know each other really well and
they even started a WhatsApp group for them to meet
at different improv events around the city. Yeah, because you know,
(19:05):
there's there are free improv jams at the different places
around town. And so there's the Improv Center, there's Line
Tiger Comedy where I'm studying right now, and my performances
are going to be in August and September, so I'll
invite students to come to that. And then there's Tyrope
(19:27):
Theater and Instant Theater. So improv in Vancouver is it's huge,
you know. And I also take people to a show
at the Improv Center, like on the second class, because
I find that there's a huge learning curve that happens
(19:48):
after people see it on stage. Oh yeah, yeah, so
you yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
You are teaching improv classes and you done a little
bit of sort of research into how not scientific research,
but looking into how improv impacts on people. Can you
talk a little bit about that, sure.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I mean I think for me like improv is a
form of meditation because I'm just I'm in the moment
the whole time that I am that I am doing it.
And yeah, and there are studies that have shown that
taking improv classes actually actually lowers anxiety and depression because
(20:39):
people belong to a group and hopefully they like all
the people in the group, and they can work as
part of the team in those in those groups, and
they can also feel safe doing that. That's really a
very important actor, especially when you are teaching people with
(21:05):
mental health or addiction challenges. And I actually I had
a gentleman recently who took a class with me, and
he said, oh, yeah, I remember when you used to
teach for the Vancouver school Board, like twenty years ago.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Oh my goodness, and I took a class with you.
Oh my goodness. Was it a class?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yeah, it was an improv class. And I remember, like,
so when I was teaching the school board, so I
was teaching night classes and the principal called me into
his office and said, you know, what the math teacher
is complaining because your students are laughing so hard they
can't concentrate. And that was like, yeah, they like, that
(21:57):
was the best compliment that anyone has ever Yes, so
we moved into the theater space.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Oh good, that's about it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely better, a
lot better. So improv can help people once they get
out of being terrified of exuding any kind of emotion.
Can help with anxiety. I think you I'm reading here
in your description that it helps with an intolerance of uncertainty.
(22:27):
That's that's actually very profound because that can be a
very difficult thing for people that you and as you mentioned,
it can lower feelings of depression, anxiety, and and and
provide a feeling of belonging. I think all of these
are really wonderful things. It also is engaging people in
their creative thought, and I would imagine in doing those things,
(22:48):
you're also engaging critical thinking, am I right?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Yeah, I mean you know, there are a lot of
actually there are a lot of sitcom writers in the
United States. It's like you know in Hollywood who are improvisers,
and people like them because they know how to work
with the team. They're not going to block other people's ideas,
they're gonna run with them, right. So I'm not sure
(23:16):
about critical thinking. No one's ever asked me that, but
I would just say that it overall will will help
your mental health and that you know, hopefully you'll you'll
meet some people that that that will become good friends
(23:37):
of yours. I met someone named one of my improv
classes and I said, to where, it seems like maybe
you're my long lost daughter, and she said, yeah, okay,
let's get together. So we've been friends for like a
year and a half.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Now, yeah, that's really great. Now you have classes coming up?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Sure, So there are classes coming off in September and November.
So the first series starts September eighth, it's on a
Monday night, and the second series starts on November three,
and that's also on a Monday. They take place in
Granvile Island and there they're sponsored by the Consumer Initiative Fund.
(24:27):
So hopefully in a week the poster will be up
at the Consumer Initiative Fund website or people can just
email me right away because my email address is very short.
It's just C A S A n at Shaw dot
so only one s. Even though my name is cass
(24:51):
short for Cassandra, but it's c A s A n
at Shaw dot Ca.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
So c is in Charlie as and Apple s s
in Sam as an ap Apple and as in Norman
at Shaw dot Ca. And they can they can just
write directly to you and and register. How much does
it cost to take your class?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Yes, thanks for asking. I have a grant from the
Consumer Initiative FUN so it costs people absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
So it's free. It's seven weeks long. When the first
one starts September eighth, it's down in Carousel Theater on
Granville Island, and it starts at six forty five. It
looks like yeah, for seven weeks, and it says here
on this poster you get to overcome fear, embrace positivity,
and learn to inspire others as we perform group improv games.
Just bring your imagination and that's all that we just
(25:41):
talked about.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
And maybe a comfortable pair of shoes absolutely no, no,
why heels please, I don't know, well loud and noisy
and yeah, yeah, okay, we're very we're really looking forward
to there's there's fourteen spots in each class.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Right, so pre registration is required.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yes, yes, it's definitely not a drop and we'd like
to see people every week if they can make it.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Okay. Well, thank you, Cassandra, and I wish you well
in this workshop that you're doing. It sounds like a
wonderful thing to be doing with, folks.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Oh you're welcome and we'll be right back fox.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
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on topics such as humanitarian issues, social justice, activism and homelessness, poverty,
(26:49):
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Speaker 7 (27:54):
You know the bedfields warm, sleeping here. They didn't know
my dreaming color into the things.
Speaker 8 (28:07):
Oh you think.
Speaker 9 (28:11):
You got the best of me. I think you had
the last time.
Speaker 7 (28:14):
But you think did everything. Bude is gone against me,
broken down. I think that I'll come on and back.
Maybe you don't know me because you're dead.
Speaker 9 (28:27):
What doesn't kill you makes your soul? What doesn't kill
your stuff?
Speaker 5 (28:39):
Say?
Speaker 9 (28:43):
What girls and kill you yourself?
Speaker 8 (28:52):
What doesn't kill you doesn't.
Speaker 7 (29:02):
He hadn't study over his son.
Speaker 9 (29:10):
It's old. Joe was moving and he said, I come back.
I come back, swing and started to break me.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
He with, doesen't kill your exercise?
Speaker 9 (29:33):
House, the dos and children.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Stuff?
Speaker 8 (29:40):
I said, God, the girls and chill your kill.
Speaker 9 (29:50):
That doesn't kill your st Next? Thank you, let's next,
thank you, the pro Next, thank you, thank you. You're
(30:15):
just custom beginning. What doesn't kill him makes as job?
What tis and killis says?
Speaker 8 (30:34):
Games and chillis sad.
Speaker 9 (30:48):
Doesn't kill.
Speaker 8 (30:57):
Chill.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
CFRH one d point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox. Rethreading
Madness is coming up to its sixth anniversary of being
on air. We produce an air each week out of
cfr OH one hundred point five FM on the unseated
traditional territory of the Squamish, Muscriham and Slighway Tooth nations
(31:44):
around Vancouver. Bc RGM was one of the first radio
programs to focus on mental health issues here in Canada,
in an area swamped with statements from therapists rooted in
colonial ideas about mental health and trained in the DSM.
RTM works to ensure that the voices of those with
lived experience have agency and opportunity to define who they
(32:07):
are and what is true for them who listens to us.
Beyond those with lived experience, our audience includes their friends
and partners, along with therapists, counselors, and students of psychology.
Since twenty twenty two, all of our programs have been
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(32:29):
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Speaker 10 (32:39):
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The trees they plant help filter the air and water
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(33:02):
or get involved, go to Tree Canada dot ca.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
And we're back. I have a privilege of speaking with
Shenise Dockson, who is a survivor of therapy abuse and exploitation.
I do want to warn folks that Shenise shares some
graphic details of what happened during the sexual assaults, so
please do what you need to to take care of
yourself in this interview. So welcome, Shenise. It's an honor
(33:27):
to have you with us today. I'm going to let
you tell folks who you are and why you're here.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
Yes, absolutely so. My name is Shenise Dawkins and I
am the Oklahoma City Natives and a life coach. So
I also help women who are looking to reset in
their personal professional lives. And the main reason I'm here
today is to shed light and bring awareness to therapy abuse.
(33:55):
And this is something that happened to you, and I
remember talking with you and being and I shouldn't be
shocked at how fast this happened, because we talk about
how fast this can happen, but I think in your case,
it happened a little bit more extreme, a little faster
than I've ever heard before. So perhaps you can tell us.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
What happened for you.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
Yes, absolutely so. I would say around June of twenty
twenty approximately around that time time frame, I was seeking
a therapist who specialized in childhood trauma and domestic violence,
and so I was reviewing and researching tons of different
(34:37):
people in the Oklahoma City area essentially where I am,
and I ran across a few different people and one
came across my timeline and they had plenty of different experiences,
and essentially I ended up booking an appointment not too
(34:58):
long a kind of reviewing everything, and I would say
on the very first therapy session, just kind of like
a normal session essentially of going over your intake. So
where you're from, what brought you to therapy, like your
childhood trauma, just different patterns and things that you kind
(35:20):
of want to develop more so, I wanted to develop
more healthier hot habits into my adulthood essentially. And I
would say that intake questionnaire was about thirty to forty
five minutes with this particular therapist, and after that timeframe,
from thirty to forty five minutes, the therapist began to
(35:44):
sexually exploit me essentially, just it was an uncomfortable experience,
and just from there we just we began talking about
continuing to talk about different incidents as a child and
bringing up different things. But yeah, I was sexually exploited
(36:05):
on my very first therapy session and it just it turned,
it turned into a nightmare. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
So I just want to really impress upon people that
what you did in that intake is you spent thirty
to forty five minutes talking about your childhood trauma, which
I believed includes sexual trauma, right yep. And from that
he after those forty five minutes, he went straight to
exploiting you sexually as well. Can you talk a little
(36:35):
bit about what he did?
Speaker 4 (36:37):
Yes, absolutely so. Within I would say, after that forty
five minutes thirty to forty five minutes, he essentially took
off his what do you call it, like undergarments, and yeah,
he just exposed me. We were talking about several different
things in regards to childhood trauma, relationships with my father,
(37:02):
our relationship with men in general, and it just turned
into something that was just very uncomfortable. I felt like
the very first thought that came into my mind was
has this happened to any other girls? And at that moment,
I didn't really react like outwardly. I just kind of
(37:23):
kept that thought to myself and kind of let the
session go on. Not too much longer. After that, the
session pretty much ended, but that's when the grooming and
the bribing and just the whole kind of nightmare began
to kind of actually start just be in progress.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Essentially. I must say Schnise that I literally have never
heard of that kind of It's basically, you were assaulted.
You were sexually assaulted within forty five minutes of walking
into his office after having talked about sexual trauma. I'm
so incredibly blown away by the arrogance and the audacity
(38:10):
that has to take for somebody to literally expose himself
to you. In that timeframe. It doesn't mean I don't
believe you. It just means that it just gives me
another level of understanding of how much power and authority
and belief these people have who do these crimes and
they are a crime that they will not be held accountable.
(38:34):
So this happened, and then he kind of addressed himself
and went on with the interview, the intake, and then
you said the grooming started. So what happened after that?
Speaker 4 (38:46):
After that, I would say he more so brought up
his livelihood and just overall that if this gets if
this information gets out, that it's going to be pretty bad.
And essentially, again in my mind, I'm thinking, well, this
has to have happened before. It was just too in
(39:10):
my eyes, just too easy to kind of like brush
over things. And so he would just make different remarks
and just continue to like put his livelihood and say
those type of remarks like in the forefront. And then
afterwards I had two more sessions at his office and
those turned into they were talking about essentially my goals
(39:34):
and just overall what I kind of wanted out of therapy,
but still kind of the manipulation and gaslighting part, and
it also turned intimate after those two sessions. So yeah,
overall it was just more so about him dangling his
livelihood and just if this gets out, then you know
(39:57):
it's not going to be good.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
So he knew what he was doing was wrong, absolutely,
like he was misunderstood or thought maybe it might be okay.
So he arrogantly and confidently did this thing to you
and knew all the while that what he was doing
was the wrong thing. And yes, what we find with
people who do that to that degree and have that
(40:24):
kind of confidence in what they're doing, I've usually done
it before. And of course we find that with every
other type of abuser, right child molesterers and batterers, they
have done this before, and so they feel confident that
they will not be held accountable. So after two or
three sessions, did you stay in his office or is
that when things moved to your home?
Speaker 4 (40:47):
No, we didn't stay at his office. Things definitely moved
to my home. And then you had mentioned about, you know,
talking about the batter as well, so I think talking
about just childhood trauma and then relating it to my
domestic violence. He also had a background in it, so
it wasn't that he only specialized in it. He knew
my vulnerabilities, my pain points, and that's how we were
(41:11):
able to talk in such depth about different experiences. But yeah,
after that it moved towards my home. And that's more
so when even more of the gas lighting and the
manipulation and the grooming and.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
The bribing of this is, you know, it's.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
I don't know how to describe it. It's kind of
like he just never thought I would say anything.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Can I ask you, in the conversations that you had
with him, had you talked about things that had to
do with grooming as a child or grooming as a spouse,
being battered or did he have anything from the things
you told him that would indicate to him that you
would go along with this. Because I've had situations where
(42:03):
I've been you know, people have had expectations of me,
and when I go back and look at it, I
realized that they had that expectation not because I said
this is what I would do. It's because I had
outlined something that had happened in my past and I
had allowed it to happen back then, so they would
have this information to know that most likely I would
(42:24):
repeat that behavior for them so I just wondered whether
or not you'd ever had a chance to look at
it to see whether or not he was taking his
cues from things that had happened to you before and
how you had reacted before.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
Yes, that is very interesting that you mentioned that. I think,
even in between kind of just explaining my childhood trauma
in the things that I witnessed within domestic violence, I
think he used that most definitely against me as far
as just the emotional abuse and just the manipulation of
(43:04):
it all. He knew, he already knew these things. He
already knew that this was my background and this was
what was going on because I was telling him in
the process in that intake, and so he used that
to then weaponize, weaponize, and bribe me not to really
(43:28):
say anything.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
It's almost like, instead of working with you to kind
of undo the grooming from before and look at how
that's impacted on your life and make changes and help
you move ahead like as you had asked, he just
built upon the grooming that you'd already gone through. Correct. Yes, Yeah,
And that always makes me mad that people are out
(43:52):
there being paid to be somebody to help you and
instead this is what they do with it. It's become
something about their own needs. How long did this go
on for you?
Speaker 4 (44:06):
I would say, just like the act within itself and
just kind of going back and forth between the office
to my home. It lasted about almost a year before
things kind of escalated and I was able to make
my decision in reporting him. So, yeah, and what happened
to escalate things for you? I would say, many of
(44:32):
things he got in my face.
Speaker 5 (44:36):
I also was.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
I became pregnant, I had an abortion. I just had this,
you know, inclination that this was not only happening to me,
that this was happening to other women, and it just
it took so much strength and you know, emotional, such
(45:01):
an emotional emotional toll on me that I knew I
had to say something because this wasn't this wasn't just
happening to me in the capacity of making it look
like I was the crazy one. You know, I'm the client,
he's the you know, therapist, and there's there's that there's
(45:23):
that dynamic of power and abuse. They know they have
a certain type of power, and.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
I just didn't agree that that this one.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
I was still processing, processing it happening it to myself,
and so the magnitude of happening, it happening to not
just me, but others around me and in the same
city at that it just it made me look at
things from a different perspective.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
So, yeah, well, and you are in the helping field,
you are there wanting to help people move their lives forward,
and so I would imagine that would come up, you know,
what he was doing would come up against that for
you in terms of not being okay. It just would
not be okay for all kinds of reasons, but also
for that did you report him?
Speaker 4 (46:13):
I did report him. It wasn't until about early January
of twenty twenty two. So that whole entire process of
reporting him was very gruesome and just ugly and nasty
because again, through that entire process, he thought I was
(46:34):
never going to report him, and it just it turned
out to be very volatile because this therapist ended up
trying to put a protective order on me because he
did not want this information out.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Can you explain to people what a protective order is?
You're in Oklahoma, people hear this from all over the world,
So what is a protective order in Oklahoma?
Speaker 4 (47:00):
So it's essentially an order, a consent order that between
one or more parties. It depends on the situation, what's
going on. The things have just escalated, and the courts
the law have to get involved. And it's essentially an
agreement to where these particular parties can no longer be
(47:23):
in contact, and if they are, there are consequences and
repercussions to that. And so he was trying to pursue
that as a therapist against a client, which was just
absurd to me.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
And did he want you to sign an NDA? Of
course we hear about this all the time, but I
think that also happened. How did how did that come about?
Speaker 4 (47:47):
Yes, during the whole court proceedings and investigation and just
the initial process of reporting, he was very just not
for this at all, and so he wanted all of
this information and all of this to go away.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
And so by the end of pretty much the court proceedings.
Speaker 4 (48:10):
We ended up a nondisculture agreement was brought up, and
at first I did not want to go forth with
it for a number of reasons, but I did anyway,
and that was for an entire year.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
So he had a stock place where you wouldn't talk
about it for a year and then the NBA would
go away. Correct, Yes, Yeah, And so that was very.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
Like just a lot for me as well, because I
was I felt like I was being silenced because on
the other end, he was, you know, just retaliating in
a way from he's getting me removed from professional speaking
engagements because we're both you know, community people, community members
of the community. And it was just a lot that
(49:03):
I had to endure between cyberbullying and just him being
able to overall just try and destroy me, my image,
my character, and make himself look like the victim and
make me look like just somebody crazy, like this is
just therapy. Abuse doesn't happen, And so he just flipped
this whole entire narrative that I was just lying, I
(49:25):
wasn't telling the truth, and I endured that for two years.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
So it was it was very gruesome. Yeah, injury is
the right word for it. It is a hellish thing
that abusive therapists can put their clients through when they
are reporting them. I'm sorry you went through that. You
have you are several years away from this, now, how
(49:49):
are you doing?
Speaker 4 (49:51):
I am doing much better. I've been able to rebuild
my life because of this whole process, I've had to
move away and just you know, take care of myself,
take extra precautions because I am in the same city,
and I feel like I've regained my strength, myself worth,
(50:12):
my confidence, and just being able to maneuver in a
way that I'm okay, you know, I'm safe, just steering
clear of different professional engagements or mutual connections. I've had
to set boundaries not only within myself, but just overall
around the community as well.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
So yeah, right, well, I'm glad to hear that, Shenise.
I think that very often people don't understand just how
problematic and abusive it is to have your therapist do this,
but then to have them turn around and attack, hoping
to silence you. It just adds a whole other level
(50:56):
to the trauma that is hard to get through. And
I'm very glad that you have, so thank you for
coming and sharing that with us.
Speaker 4 (51:07):
Yes, absolutely, and we'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Folks.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
I come, you stay, but you're just.
Speaker 11 (51:20):
Gonna field the same I to the blame.
Speaker 9 (51:26):
Maybe that was only your aim.
Speaker 3 (51:28):
Bathe me in the river and purse my soul.
Speaker 7 (51:32):
If I'm me the devil, I'm a pay my soul,
lad my roots deeper, and watch me grows.
Speaker 9 (51:38):
No, always will be told, because I come from the world.
Speaker 12 (51:43):
I come from the watch and then saying be on
the ages of the ball your.
Speaker 9 (51:56):
Virus day sound here to the stand and the b
really went hot sex you will find, you.
Speaker 8 (52:13):
Will find.
Speaker 10 (52:21):
We live.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
We burned, we bo wee sore, and we keep the weed.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Burn Who served?
Speaker 12 (52:29):
Who burns?
Speaker 2 (52:30):
In the funny how the tables can turn.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
Bathe me in the river and burs my soul.
Speaker 13 (52:36):
If I'm in the devil, I'm a pay my soul,
land my roach deep, and watch me grows.
Speaker 9 (52:43):
Always will be talked because I come from the water.
Speaker 12 (52:48):
I'm come from the us, and then I have seer
and we are the agels off me.
Speaker 9 (53:00):
Woo, you don't fire at the sound here to the scam.
Really when pot say you will the monday, you will
my day.
Speaker 8 (53:25):
Wing dom down don down down to the river to
the river, going.
Speaker 9 (53:32):
Down, down, down, down down.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
To the river to the river. I come from the water.
Speaker 11 (53:40):
I come from the rocks.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
And the dirty.
Speaker 9 (53:44):
I am sinner.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
And we are the angels of the dome.
Speaker 9 (53:50):
Comes from the water and comes on the rocks and
the dirt, and I am Sinner.
Speaker 14 (54:39):
Hey, did you know Red Eye has a podcast? You
can tune in to Red Eye every Saturday morning from
ten am to noon, and now you can catch our
interviews anytime. Look for the Red Eye podcast on iTunes,
tune in Radio, or a host of other podcast apps,
or you can check out our latest episode right on
our website co Op radio dot org work slash read, I.
Speaker 13 (55:01):
Here turn you up. Quigate euons Queens Na. Hi, everybody,
my name is Quigate Ywon's. I'm a member of the
Squamish Nation and the Yoglanis Klan of the Hida Nation.
You're listening to co Op Radio cfro O one hundred
point five FM. We live, work play and broadcast from
the traditional ancestral and unseeded territories of the Musquiham, Squamish
(55:23):
and Sleevetooth nations.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
And that's our show. My thanks to Cass Freeman for
chatting with us about the benefits of being involved in
improv theater and about her upcoming class on Granville Island.
Her email address is casan at Shaw dot cat, c
A s a n at Shaw dot Ca. And my
thanks to Shine Stockson for sharing her story of therapy
(55:45):
abuse and exploitation. Powerful, powerful story to share you all right,
Kelly Clarkson and the Sons of Legions, thank you for
the gift of your music, and to you, our listeners,
thank you for joining us today. Stay safe out there.
You've just listened to Rethreading Madness, where we dare to
change how we think about mental health. We air live
(56:06):
on Vancouver co Op Radio CFRO one hundred point five
FM every Tuesday at five pm, or online at co
opradio dot org. If you have questions or feedback about
this program, I want to share your story or have
something to say to us, we want to hear from you.
You can reach us by email Rethreading Madness at co
opradio dot org. This is Berndine Fox. We'll be back
(56:29):
next week.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Until then, we have ever been further goes, What the
hell I'm gonna do when I can't see?
Speaker 4 (56:44):
Fine?
Speaker 3 (56:44):
My way.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
Under over you just when I'm ready and give the bye?
Speaker 11 (56:57):
There you are when we turn light it It's sorry,
it's all right, Go to real, be alright. Why do
I always but when you tell me everything's gonna be
(57:18):
all right?
Speaker 1 (57:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (57:27):
Why don't I wonder how you know?
Speaker 11 (57:32):
Surely you don't have all of the facts.
Speaker 4 (57:37):
You could be just.
Speaker 11 (57:39):
Making it up. Why don't I ever think of that?
Speaker 2 (57:47):
So God, imagine in the words that you read, saying, baby,
take it from me.
Speaker 11 (57:56):
It's sorry, it's all right, don't too a REI be alright,
but always believe that when you.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Tell me everything's gonna be off right, everythings gonna be
off right than anyone else. It's such a cliche, just
words people say.
Speaker 3 (58:29):
To be nice.
Speaker 9 (58:32):
Somehow, and na far from yer. I'm convinced your.
Speaker 14 (59:03):
When I'm weary and so tired.
Speaker 11 (59:08):
When I'm worn out, and.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
When I fall off the why again, no more strength
to get back on.
Speaker 11 (59:23):
There you are, with that voice.
Speaker 5 (59:26):
In my.
Speaker 2 (59:28):
Saying the words, and I even hit it's.
Speaker 3 (59:32):
All right, it's all right, don't.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
Really alright, but A will. But when they tell me
everything's gonna be off everything is gonna be alad
You're listening to Vancouver call op Radio cfr OH one
hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Muscreham and sligh Wey
Tooth nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernardine Fox,
and this is this show that dares to change how
we think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
When Liver been fer no, what the hell I'm gonna
do when I can't see a fine away under over.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver Call Radio cfr
OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox, and
today I have the pleasure of speaking with Cass Freeman,
who's starting a project on improv for folks who live
with mental health challenges. So welcome, Sandra. Can you tell
us a little bit about who you are?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Sure? I'm a journalist and I perform improvisation and I
teach improvisation. That I first got into it during the
nineteen eighties, actually when I was an injured dancer, an
injured ballet dancer, and I went to something called Vancouver
(01:29):
Theater Sports, which is the Improv Center today. And I
watched the show and I thought to myself, I can
do that. So I did.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
And that was what year that?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Oh my goodness, that must have been like nineteen eighty five.
So I'm quite. I'm quite. I'm ancient.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Oh no, not as ancient as may I'm that, but
that's okay, Okay, ancient is good. So so you were
a ballerina. You entered improv while you were healing. What
did you What did you like about improv?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I think what I've always liked about improv is that
you're in the moment, so you're not thinking about anything
that has to do with your life at all. You
can just leave your life behind you completely. You can
be anyone on stage. You can even play a table
(02:28):
or I've seen someone play a birthday cake. You know,
someone just walked on and blew out the candles on
their head and that was that was quite quite a
bit of fun.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Okay. So I have a dumb question, but it's one
that I've always had sitting and watching improv and people
acting as a birthday cake. Acting in my very naive brain,
because I'm not an actor, means that you have to
embody a character. How do you embody the character of
a birthday cake.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Oh well, you would just I think what she did
is she does put her arms in front of her
It's kind of hard to describe on radio. But and
then or she might have actually put the like her
hands as candles on top of her head. Okay, I'm
(03:21):
not sure that someone came in and blew them out.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So it's more about portraying the visual part of being
a k a birthdicate.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah, I mean that's you know, but that doesn't happen
too often. Mostly what happens is that you will walk
on with a certain character. And that's that's what I
teach in the class, is how to embody a character.
And you know, in order to do that, you have
to be able to express the emotions on stage. You
(03:54):
might want to if it's comedy, you might want to
choose an over the top character and you you know,
so you're using body language and your voice to do that.
And then audiences love this. I'm not sure why, but
if someone else walks on who's like, we call them
(04:16):
a matching character. So if they come on and they're
also choosing your body language and your tone of voice,
the audience just seems to really like that experience, and
of course you have to you know, build scene while
you're while you're up there.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
And what does that mean build scene?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Well, build I mean essentially improv is spontaneous storytelling. So
you know, if I walk on stage and I say
to you, hey, Frank, it's seign, You're immediately Frank it Steigin.
That's who you are if you accept that, and you
can say something back to me like oh, hey, Dracula,
and then of course I have to be Dracula, and
(05:01):
then we just we find something and it could be
really anything. You know, they might want to talk about
their dark past or they might want to, I don't know,
go out into the world and try to be normal.
It's uh, it really depends. It really depends on the
(05:23):
person on the people on stage. And so the most
important thing about improv is teamwork. So you have to
you're you are there on stage to support the other
person and help them build a scene or be in
an improv game with them, and so that that's primarily
(05:50):
what a lot of the improv classes I teach are about.
They're about they're about teamwork, and that also you know,
helps people get rid of their stage fright because they're
not focusing on themselves, They're focusing on the other person
who's on stage with them.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah. I have a child that went through a lot
of theater and stage up until into her twenties. Musical theater, YadA, YadA.
And one of the things that impressed the hell out
of me as a stage quote mom my grandchild, but
still my child.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Was the.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Camaraderie of the actors on stage. And how not just
in the rehearsal part of it, but how when you're
on stage, the teamwork and the watching each other's back
and making sure everybody was okay and making sure everybody
had their line or filling in or you know, doing
a little improv on stage because somebody got stuck somewhere
(06:50):
was incredible. It was like, oh my god. Every kid
in the world should have this opportunity to experience this
form of teamwork with where everybody is working towards the
same goal and they're the micro behavioral, interpersonal stuff is
(07:10):
pushed out of the way to to make this goal happen.
I was blown away.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Well that's what we you know, That's why the first
wee thing we say to people in our classes. I
actually teach with my husband sometimes, so we say welcome
to your new improv family, because we do want those
relationships to form, and especially you know, if you're teaching
people with mental health issues or addiction issues, they can
(07:44):
often be quite isolated. So we want them to socialize
in our classes and meet each other and support each other.
So that's what we's that's our goal in the classes.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So when we talk about the history of improv, I
must have met having gone to improv. I really don't
understand it as an audience member what I'm looking at
or why this is important. So if we look at
the history of improv, is it purely entertainment just watching
people trying to grasp something and play it out on
(08:18):
stage or was there another purpose for it or was
it just purely entertainment.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
No, I don't think it's it's purely entertainment. It's it's
a way for people to bond on stage and it's
a way to engage the audience and maybe take them
somewhere they've never been before. Right, So you know, I
mean I studied with Keith Johnstone who lived in Calgary.
(08:49):
He's passed away unfortunately, but he taught improv around the world,
and he's the creator of theater sports. So it's it's
really I can't really express what I was going to
(09:10):
say here. It's it should be just a place, you know,
where an audience can feel safe and see people on
stage who are reflecting maybe what they go through in
their so called normal lives, but also to take them
(09:31):
places where they've never been before. So, you know, imagination
is pretty key if you're if you're a.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Performer, absolutely when you talk about expressing emotions on stage.
And I'm kind of talking a little bit here about
who can do theater sports, and of course one would
hope anybody can do theater sports. But I'm just going
to put myself into the mix here. I you know,
(10:01):
I'm very I can be very exuberant, I can be
very outgoing. I can be a bit of an extrovert,
but ultimately, truthfully, I am an intropert and the idea
of getting on stage and expressing emotions is a little
terrifying to tight you the truth. So who is in
(10:25):
prov theater for?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Well, if you're talking about classes is for everyone. You know,
I've had very introverted and nervous people in my classes,
and by the end of like the seven or eight
part series of classes. They're quite relaxed and they're laughing.
So I think, you know, during the first class, that's
(10:50):
the time where we get people doing group improv games,
so you're not really on the spot for very long.
You're we're going around a circle or you're in pairs
trying out different exercises. You talk about emotions, and there's
(11:11):
an emotional game we like to play called It's Tuesday,
and involves two people facing each other and one of
them says it's Tuesday, and the other person has to
do like maybe just a thirty second monologue, like choose
an emotion and go with that emotion and talk about
(11:35):
why it's important that today is Tuesday. So, for example,
I mean, it could be sad, happy, whatever you like,
and it would go something like this. So if you
would say to me, it's Tuesday, then I might go,
it's Tuesday. Oh my god, Tuesday. I'm a be laundry
(11:56):
last Tuesday. I can't believe it. Oh whoa, it's Tuesday again.
And then and then I would say to you, it's Tuesday,
and you would try to tell a little story with
an emotion, so it's it's not. You know, I don't
(12:16):
think of it as you know, in a classroom, you're
not on the stage, so there's not that pressure of
having an audience watching you. And then also, you know,
if we say to people, if you're not comfortable doing
this gamer exercise, you know, that's fine. You can sit out,
or you can go for a walk. Also, I mean,
(12:37):
it's really important to create safety in the classroom. So
if at any time people are doing an exercise or
a game or a scene and they feel really uncomfortable
and they might not even know why, they can just
say stop and then they will either talk about why
(12:59):
it's bothered them, or they'll take a break, or they'll
take a break with their their improv body. I think
I'm gonna pair people up and have people take care
of each other that way, so that creates a place
where people can relax and feel comfortable and you know,
(13:23):
and frankly and surprise themselves with with what what they're
doing and what they're saying.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
You do develop classes for improv for folks who have
mental health challenges, are all improv classes Like what you're
talking about or is what you're talking about what you
have implemented in your classes for folks with mental health challenges.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
No, we create that safety in all the classes that okay, yeah, yeah,
but you know we but it just seems, you know what,
it seems like people with mental health issues they just
need more breaks. To be honest with you, that's really
all they need, and they need that opportunity to be
able to walk out and walk back in.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah. Honestly, you're talking about something that I believe is
true about all people. So so your program is set
up for folks with mental health challenges, and how how
do you find that people find you? What kind of
folks come to your classes?
Speaker 3 (14:34):
You know, I don't there's no disclosure needed, so I
don't often find out what is going on with people.
But I do know that, you know, we've had people
with schizophrenia, with like there terrible depression, people with addictions
to alcohol. I guess in that case that was something
(14:59):
in his past, luckily for him. But yeah, I mean,
it's it's really you know, a privilege to teach people
who have been through what I call mental hell, because
(15:21):
you know, these are people who kind of have fought
against the odds for some of them a very very
long time.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
They've been you know.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Psychiatrized and told that they yo psych I just tell
you what's wrong with you, not what's right with you. So,
you know, a lot of learning and prop involves learning
what's right with you. You know, how how you can
express yourself in a very positive way, and like I said,
(16:02):
how you might surprise yourself with the kinds of stories
that you end up telling or the kind of the
kind of scenes that you put together with other people.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
I always talk about how we've pathologized trauma in our society,
and part of what you're talking about there in terms
of pathologize, he's also not pathologized psychiatrized people. When you
pathologize trauma, what you've done is you've taken a normal
response to being traumatized and called it crazy. And when
(16:38):
you put folks together who have experienced that, part of
it's not just your story that you're telling, it's hearing
other people's stories who are telling those stories that are
your stories, and how healing that can be for people.
So I imagine that also happens in your group as well.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Yeah, it's really quite open about you know, what subjects
they want and was about. I'd be very happy if
if if people it seems, you know, making fun of
the mental health system. Yeah, that would be that would
be uh, that would be great to see.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Oh yeah, And part of what happens when folks who
have mental health challenges come together and there is no
therapist in the room is they also make fun of
themselves and their diagnosis and who they are. And that
kind of humor is priceless. It's really priceless and healing.
It is very healing. So that's hope they do that
(17:34):
as well. So when we look at one in two
in the general population to have a mental health challenge,
that means that no matter what class you go into,
you are more than likely to be in a room
with somebody who has a mental health challenge that can
be schizophrenia, because schizophrenia is not something that is always
(17:57):
so noticeable as people are led to believe by our
mainstream popular culture. So what do you find that considering
you were one of the people that might know if
somebody has has a diagnosis like that, are there problems
that come up in those classes or are they just
(18:18):
simply a part of the class.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, I haven't you know. So we've run the program
once before. We ran it for I guess nine weeks
and no, I mean people when we did dramatic improv. Yeah,
people were getting little bit triggered and had to leave.
But I don't anticipate that in a comedy class, right,
(18:42):
And I don't think anything anything really happened. I mean,
I think that you know, what happened last year is
that people got to know each other really well and
they even started a WhatsApp group for them to meet
at different improv events around the city. Yeah, because you know,
(19:05):
there's there are free improv jams at the different places
around town. And so there's the Improv Center, there's Line
Tiger Comedy where I'm studying right now, and my performances
are going to be in August and September, so I'll
invite students to come to that. And then there's Tyrope
(19:27):
Theater and Instant Theater. So improv in Vancouver is it's huge,
you know. And I also take people to a show
at the Improv Center, like on the second class, because
I find that there's a huge learning curve that happens
(19:48):
after people see it on stage. Oh yeah, yeah, so
you yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
You are teaching improv classes and you done a little
bit of sort of research into how not scientific research,
but looking into how improv impacts on people. Can you
talk a little bit about that, sure.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I mean I think for me like improv is a
form of meditation because I'm just I'm in the moment
the whole time that I am that I am doing it.
And yeah, and there are studies that have shown that
taking improv classes actually actually lowers anxiety and depression because
(20:39):
people belong to a group and hopefully they like all
the people in the group, and they can work as
part of the team in those in those groups, and
they can also feel safe doing that. That's really a
very important actor, especially when you are teaching people with
(21:05):
mental health or addiction challenges. And I actually I had
a gentleman recently who took a class with me, and
he said, oh, yeah, I remember when you used to
teach for the Vancouver school Board, like twenty years ago.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Oh my goodness, and I took a class with you.
Oh my goodness. Was it a class?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yeah, it was an improv class. And I remember, like,
so when I was teaching the school board, so I
was teaching night classes and the principal called me into
his office and said, you know, what the math teacher
is complaining because your students are laughing so hard they
can't concentrate. And that was like, yeah, they like, that
(21:57):
was the best compliment that anyone has ever Yes, so
we moved into the theater space.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Oh good, that's about it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely better, a
lot better. So improv can help people once they get
out of being terrified of exuding any kind of emotion.
Can help with anxiety. I think you I'm reading here
in your description that it helps with an intolerance of uncertainty.
(22:27):
That's that's actually very profound because that can be a
very difficult thing for people that you and as you mentioned,
it can lower feelings of depression, anxiety, and and and
provide a feeling of belonging. I think all of these
are really wonderful things. It also is engaging people in
their creative thought, and I would imagine in doing those things,
(22:48):
you're also engaging critical thinking, am I right?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Yeah, I mean you know, there are a lot of
actually there are a lot of sitcom writers in the
United States. It's like you know in Hollywood who are improvisers,
and people like them because they know how to work
with the team. They're not going to block other people's ideas,
they're gonna run with them, right. So I'm not sure
(23:16):
about critical thinking. No one's ever asked me that, but
I would just say that it overall will will help
your mental health and that you know, hopefully you'll you'll
meet some people that that that will become good friends
(23:37):
of yours. I met someone named one of my improv
classes and I said, to where, it seems like maybe
you're my long lost daughter, and she said, yeah, okay,
let's get together. So we've been friends for like a
year and a half.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Now, yeah, that's really great. Now you have classes coming up?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Sure, So there are classes coming off in September and November.
So the first series starts September eighth, it's on a
Monday night, and the second series starts on November three,
and that's also on a Monday. They take place in
Granvile Island and there they're sponsored by the Consumer Initiative Fund.
(24:27):
So hopefully in a week the poster will be up
at the Consumer Initiative Fund website or people can just
email me right away because my email address is very short.
It's just C A S A n at Shaw dot
so only one s. Even though my name is cass
(24:51):
short for Cassandra, but it's c A s A n
at Shaw dot Ca.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
So c is in Charlie as and Apple s s
in Sam as an ap Apple and as in Norman
at Shaw dot Ca. And they can they can just
write directly to you and and register. How much does
it cost to take your class?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Yes, thanks for asking. I have a grant from the
Consumer Initiative FUN so it costs people absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
So it's free. It's seven weeks long. When the first
one starts September eighth, it's down in Carousel Theater on
Granville Island, and it starts at six forty five. It
looks like yeah, for seven weeks, and it says here
on this poster you get to overcome fear, embrace positivity,
and learn to inspire others as we perform group improv games.
Just bring your imagination and that's all that we just
(25:41):
talked about.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
And maybe a comfortable pair of shoes absolutely no, no,
why heels please, I don't know, well loud and noisy
and yeah, yeah, okay, we're very we're really looking forward
to there's there's fourteen spots in each class.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Right, so pre registration is required.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yes, yes, it's definitely not a drop and we'd like
to see people every week if they can make it.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Okay. Well, thank you, Cassandra, and I wish you well
in this workshop that you're doing. It sounds like a
wonderful thing to be doing with, folks.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Oh you're welcome and we'll be right back fox.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
In Side Story on co Op Radio one hundred point
five FM, Listen and reason with Arisha every second Monday
from four to five pm. Lend your ears and coats
on topics such as humanitarian issues, social justice, activism and homelessness, poverty,
(26:49):
injustice here at home, in Canada and around the globe.
This Side Story comes to you every second Monday from
forty five pm on co Op Radio one. That's them.
Speaker 6 (27:13):
Hi, folks, this is Steve ferguson your twenty first century
schitzulid Man, and I'm the host of prog Rock Alley,
inviting you to come down and listen to our show
every week at Monday one am. The very end of
the weekend. We will be looking at all forms of
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(27:34):
You want it, I got it. Just name it, I'll
play it. We'll see you again. That's here on CFRO
one hundred point five co Op Radio, Monday mornings, one am.
Speaker 7 (27:54):
You know the bedfields warm, sleeping here. They didn't know
my dreaming color into the things.
Speaker 8 (28:07):
Oh you think.
Speaker 9 (28:11):
You got the best of me. I think you had
the last time.
Speaker 7 (28:14):
But you think did everything. Bude is gone against me,
broken down. I think that I'll come on and back.
Maybe you don't know me because you're dead.
Speaker 9 (28:27):
What doesn't kill you makes your soul? What doesn't kill
your stuff?
Speaker 5 (28:39):
Say?
Speaker 9 (28:43):
What girls and kill you yourself?
Speaker 8 (28:52):
What doesn't kill you doesn't.
Speaker 7 (29:02):
He hadn't study over his son.
Speaker 9 (29:10):
It's old. Joe was moving and he said, I come back.
I come back, swing and started to break me.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
He with, doesen't kill your exercise?
Speaker 9 (29:33):
House, the dos and children.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Stuff?
Speaker 8 (29:40):
I said, God, the girls and chill your kill.
Speaker 9 (29:50):
That doesn't kill your st Next? Thank you, let's next,
thank you, the pro Next, thank you, thank you. You're
(30:15):
just custom beginning. What doesn't kill him makes as job?
What tis and killis says?
Speaker 8 (30:34):
Games and chillis sad.
Speaker 9 (30:48):
Doesn't kill.
Speaker 8 (30:57):
Chill.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
CFRH one d point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox. Rethreading
Madness is coming up to its sixth anniversary of being
on air. We produce an air each week out of
cfr OH one hundred point five FM on the unseated
traditional territory of the Squamish, Muscriham and Slighway Tooth nations
(31:44):
around Vancouver. Bc RGM was one of the first radio
programs to focus on mental health issues here in Canada,
in an area swamped with statements from therapists rooted in
colonial ideas about mental health and trained in the DSM.
RTM works to ensure that the voices of those with
lived experience have agency and opportunity to define who they
(32:07):
are and what is true for them who listens to us.
Beyond those with lived experience, our audience includes their friends
and partners, along with therapists, counselors, and students of psychology.
Since twenty twenty two, all of our programs have been
uploaded to the Mental Health Radio Network and can be
downloaded from all podcast platforms. So if this show was
(32:29):
of interest to you, you might find the rest of
our programs informative as well. You can find them by
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Speaker 10 (32:39):
The National Greening Program run by Tree Canada is dedicated
to planting seedling trees across Canada in BC, the Prairies, Ontario, Quebec,
and Atlantic. They prioritize planting on indigenous and public lands
and planting in areas of natural or human cause disaster.
The trees they plant help filter the air and water
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(33:02):
or get involved, go to Tree Canada dot ca.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
And we're back. I have a privilege of speaking with
Shenise Dockson, who is a survivor of therapy abuse and exploitation.
I do want to warn folks that Shenise shares some
graphic details of what happened during the sexual assaults, so
please do what you need to to take care of
yourself in this interview. So welcome, Shenise. It's an honor
(33:27):
to have you with us today. I'm going to let
you tell folks who you are and why you're here.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
Yes, absolutely so. My name is Shenise Dawkins and I
am the Oklahoma City Natives and a life coach. So
I also help women who are looking to reset in
their personal professional lives. And the main reason I'm here
today is to shed light and bring awareness to therapy abuse.
(33:55):
And this is something that happened to you, and I
remember talking with you and being and I shouldn't be
shocked at how fast this happened, because we talk about
how fast this can happen, but I think in your case,
it happened a little bit more extreme, a little faster
than I've ever heard before. So perhaps you can tell us.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
What happened for you.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
Yes, absolutely so. I would say around June of twenty
twenty approximately around that time time frame, I was seeking
a therapist who specialized in childhood trauma and domestic violence,
and so I was reviewing and researching tons of different
(34:37):
people in the Oklahoma City area essentially where I am,
and I ran across a few different people and one
came across my timeline and they had plenty of different experiences,
and essentially I ended up booking an appointment not too
(34:58):
long a kind of reviewing everything, and I would say
on the very first therapy session, just kind of like
a normal session essentially of going over your intake. So
where you're from, what brought you to therapy, like your
childhood trauma, just different patterns and things that you kind
(35:20):
of want to develop more so, I wanted to develop
more healthier hot habits into my adulthood essentially. And I
would say that intake questionnaire was about thirty to forty
five minutes with this particular therapist, and after that timeframe,
from thirty to forty five minutes, the therapist began to
(35:44):
sexually exploit me essentially, just it was an uncomfortable experience,
and just from there we just we began talking about
continuing to talk about different incidents as a child and
bringing up different things. But yeah, I was sexually exploited
(36:05):
on my very first therapy session and it just it turned,
it turned into a nightmare. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
So I just want to really impress upon people that
what you did in that intake is you spent thirty
to forty five minutes talking about your childhood trauma, which
I believed includes sexual trauma, right yep. And from that
he after those forty five minutes, he went straight to
exploiting you sexually as well. Can you talk a little
(36:35):
bit about what he did?
Speaker 4 (36:37):
Yes, absolutely so. Within I would say, after that forty
five minutes thirty to forty five minutes, he essentially took
off his what do you call it, like undergarments, and yeah,
he just exposed me. We were talking about several different
things in regards to childhood trauma, relationships with my father,
(37:02):
our relationship with men in general, and it just turned
into something that was just very uncomfortable. I felt like
the very first thought that came into my mind was
has this happened to any other girls? And at that moment,
I didn't really react like outwardly. I just kind of
(37:23):
kept that thought to myself and kind of let the
session go on. Not too much longer. After that, the
session pretty much ended, but that's when the grooming and
the bribing and just the whole kind of nightmare began
to kind of actually start just be in progress.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Essentially. I must say Schnise that I literally have never
heard of that kind of It's basically, you were assaulted.
You were sexually assaulted within forty five minutes of walking
into his office after having talked about sexual trauma. I'm
so incredibly blown away by the arrogance and the audacity
(38:10):
that has to take for somebody to literally expose himself
to you. In that timeframe. It doesn't mean I don't
believe you. It just means that it just gives me
another level of understanding of how much power and authority
and belief these people have who do these crimes and
they are a crime that they will not be held accountable.
(38:34):
So this happened, and then he kind of addressed himself
and went on with the interview, the intake, and then
you said the grooming started. So what happened after that?
Speaker 4 (38:46):
After that, I would say he more so brought up
his livelihood and just overall that if this gets if
this information gets out, that it's going to be pretty bad.
And essentially, again in my mind, I'm thinking, well, this
has to have happened before. It was just too in
(39:10):
my eyes, just too easy to kind of like brush
over things. And so he would just make different remarks
and just continue to like put his livelihood and say
those type of remarks like in the forefront. And then
afterwards I had two more sessions at his office and
those turned into they were talking about essentially my goals
(39:34):
and just overall what I kind of wanted out of therapy,
but still kind of the manipulation and gaslighting part, and
it also turned intimate after those two sessions. So yeah,
overall it was just more so about him dangling his
livelihood and just if this gets out, then you know
(39:57):
it's not going to be good.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
So he knew what he was doing was wrong, absolutely,
like he was misunderstood or thought maybe it might be okay.
So he arrogantly and confidently did this thing to you
and knew all the while that what he was doing
was the wrong thing. And yes, what we find with
people who do that to that degree and have that
(40:24):
kind of confidence in what they're doing, I've usually done
it before. And of course we find that with every
other type of abuser, right child molesterers and batterers, they
have done this before, and so they feel confident that
they will not be held accountable. So after two or
three sessions, did you stay in his office or is
that when things moved to your home?
Speaker 4 (40:47):
No, we didn't stay at his office. Things definitely moved
to my home. And then you had mentioned about, you know,
talking about the batter as well, so I think talking
about just childhood trauma and then relating it to my
domestic violence. He also had a background in it, so
it wasn't that he only specialized in it. He knew
my vulnerabilities, my pain points, and that's how we were
(41:11):
able to talk in such depth about different experiences. But yeah,
after that it moved towards my home. And that's more
so when even more of the gas lighting and the
manipulation and the grooming and.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
The bribing of this is, you know, it's.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
I don't know how to describe it. It's kind of
like he just never thought I would say anything.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Can I ask you, in the conversations that you had
with him, had you talked about things that had to
do with grooming as a child or grooming as a spouse,
being battered or did he have anything from the things
you told him that would indicate to him that you
would go along with this. Because I've had situations where
(42:03):
I've been you know, people have had expectations of me,
and when I go back and look at it, I
realized that they had that expectation not because I said
this is what I would do. It's because I had
outlined something that had happened in my past and I
had allowed it to happen back then, so they would
have this information to know that most likely I would
(42:24):
repeat that behavior for them so I just wondered whether
or not you'd ever had a chance to look at
it to see whether or not he was taking his
cues from things that had happened to you before and
how you had reacted before.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
Yes, that is very interesting that you mentioned that. I think,
even in between kind of just explaining my childhood trauma
in the things that I witnessed within domestic violence, I
think he used that most definitely against me as far
as just the emotional abuse and just the manipulation of
(43:04):
it all. He knew, he already knew these things. He
already knew that this was my background and this was
what was going on because I was telling him in
the process in that intake, and so he used that
to then weaponize, weaponize, and bribe me not to really
(43:28):
say anything.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
It's almost like, instead of working with you to kind
of undo the grooming from before and look at how
that's impacted on your life and make changes and help
you move ahead like as you had asked, he just
built upon the grooming that you'd already gone through. Correct. Yes, Yeah,
And that always makes me mad that people are out
(43:52):
there being paid to be somebody to help you and
instead this is what they do with it. It's become
something about their own needs. How long did this go
on for you?
Speaker 4 (44:06):
I would say, just like the act within itself and
just kind of going back and forth between the office
to my home. It lasted about almost a year before
things kind of escalated and I was able to make
my decision in reporting him. So, yeah, and what happened
to escalate things for you? I would say, many of
(44:32):
things he got in my face.
Speaker 5 (44:36):
I also was.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
I became pregnant, I had an abortion. I just had this,
you know, inclination that this was not only happening to me,
that this was happening to other women, and it just
it took so much strength and you know, emotional, such
(45:01):
an emotional emotional toll on me that I knew I
had to say something because this wasn't this wasn't just
happening to me in the capacity of making it look
like I was the crazy one. You know, I'm the client,
he's the you know, therapist, and there's there's that there's
(45:23):
that dynamic of power and abuse. They know they have
a certain type of power, and.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
I just didn't agree that that this one.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
I was still processing, processing it happening it to myself,
and so the magnitude of happening, it happening to not
just me, but others around me and in the same
city at that it just it made me look at
things from a different perspective.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
So, yeah, well, and you are in the helping field,
you are there wanting to help people move their lives forward,
and so I would imagine that would come up, you know,
what he was doing would come up against that for
you in terms of not being okay. It just would
not be okay for all kinds of reasons, but also
for that did you report him?
Speaker 4 (46:13):
I did report him. It wasn't until about early January
of twenty twenty two. So that whole entire process of
reporting him was very gruesome and just ugly and nasty
because again, through that entire process, he thought I was
(46:34):
never going to report him, and it just it turned
out to be very volatile because this therapist ended up
trying to put a protective order on me because he
did not want this information out.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Can you explain to people what a protective order is?
You're in Oklahoma, people hear this from all over the world,
So what is a protective order in Oklahoma?
Speaker 4 (47:00):
So it's essentially an order, a consent order that between
one or more parties. It depends on the situation, what's
going on. The things have just escalated, and the courts
the law have to get involved. And it's essentially an
agreement to where these particular parties can no longer be
(47:23):
in contact, and if they are, there are consequences and
repercussions to that. And so he was trying to pursue
that as a therapist against a client, which was just
absurd to me.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
And did he want you to sign an NDA? Of
course we hear about this all the time, but I
think that also happened. How did how did that come about?
Speaker 4 (47:47):
Yes, during the whole court proceedings and investigation and just
the initial process of reporting, he was very just not
for this at all, and so he wanted all of
this information and all of this to go away.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
And so by the end of pretty much the court proceedings.
Speaker 4 (48:10):
We ended up a nondisculture agreement was brought up, and
at first I did not want to go forth with
it for a number of reasons, but I did anyway,
and that was for an entire year.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
So he had a stock place where you wouldn't talk
about it for a year and then the NBA would
go away. Correct, Yes, Yeah, And so that was very.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
Like just a lot for me as well, because I
was I felt like I was being silenced because on
the other end, he was, you know, just retaliating in
a way from he's getting me removed from professional speaking
engagements because we're both you know, community people, community members
of the community. And it was just a lot that
(49:03):
I had to endure between cyberbullying and just him being
able to overall just try and destroy me, my image,
my character, and make himself look like the victim and
make me look like just somebody crazy, like this is
just therapy. Abuse doesn't happen, And so he just flipped
this whole entire narrative that I was just lying, I
(49:25):
wasn't telling the truth, and I endured that for two years.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
So it was it was very gruesome. Yeah, injury is
the right word for it. It is a hellish thing
that abusive therapists can put their clients through when they
are reporting them. I'm sorry you went through that. You
have you are several years away from this, now, how
(49:49):
are you doing?
Speaker 4 (49:51):
I am doing much better. I've been able to rebuild
my life because of this whole process, I've had to
move away and just you know, take care of myself,
take extra precautions because I am in the same city,
and I feel like I've regained my strength, myself worth,
(50:12):
my confidence, and just being able to maneuver in a
way that I'm okay, you know, I'm safe, just steering
clear of different professional engagements or mutual connections. I've had
to set boundaries not only within myself, but just overall
around the community as well.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
So yeah, right, well, I'm glad to hear that, Shenise.
I think that very often people don't understand just how
problematic and abusive it is to have your therapist do this,
but then to have them turn around and attack, hoping
to silence you. It just adds a whole other level
(50:56):
to the trauma that is hard to get through. And
I'm very glad that you have, so thank you for
coming and sharing that with us.
Speaker 4 (51:07):
Yes, absolutely, and we'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Folks.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
I come, you stay, but you're just.
Speaker 11 (51:20):
Gonna field the same I to the blame.
Speaker 9 (51:26):
Maybe that was only your aim.
Speaker 3 (51:28):
Bathe me in the river and purse my soul.
Speaker 7 (51:32):
If I'm me the devil, I'm a pay my soul,
lad my roots deeper, and watch me grows.
Speaker 9 (51:38):
No, always will be told, because I come from the world.
Speaker 12 (51:43):
I come from the watch and then saying be on
the ages of the ball your.
Speaker 9 (51:56):
Virus day sound here to the stand and the b
really went hot sex you will find, you.
Speaker 8 (52:13):
Will find.
Speaker 10 (52:21):
We live.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
We burned, we bo wee sore, and we keep the weed.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Burn Who served?
Speaker 12 (52:29):
Who burns?
Speaker 2 (52:30):
In the funny how the tables can turn.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
Bathe me in the river and burs my soul.
Speaker 13 (52:36):
If I'm in the devil, I'm a pay my soul,
land my roach deep, and watch me grows.
Speaker 9 (52:43):
Always will be talked because I come from the water.
Speaker 12 (52:48):
I'm come from the us, and then I have seer
and we are the agels off me.
Speaker 9 (53:00):
Woo, you don't fire at the sound here to the scam.
Really when pot say you will the monday, you will
my day.
Speaker 8 (53:25):
Wing dom down don down down to the river to
the river, going.
Speaker 9 (53:32):
Down, down, down, down down.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
To the river to the river. I come from the water.
Speaker 11 (53:40):
I come from the rocks.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
And the dirty.
Speaker 9 (53:44):
I am sinner.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
And we are the angels of the dome.
Speaker 9 (53:50):
Comes from the water and comes on the rocks and
the dirt, and I am Sinner.
Speaker 14 (54:39):
Hey, did you know Red Eye has a podcast? You
can tune in to Red Eye every Saturday morning from
ten am to noon, and now you can catch our
interviews anytime. Look for the Red Eye podcast on iTunes,
tune in Radio, or a host of other podcast apps,
or you can check out our latest episode right on
our website co Op radio dot org work slash read, I.
Speaker 13 (55:01):
Here turn you up. Quigate euons Queens Na. Hi, everybody,
my name is Quigate Ywon's. I'm a member of the
Squamish Nation and the Yoglanis Klan of the Hida Nation.
You're listening to co Op Radio cfro O one hundred
point five FM. We live, work play and broadcast from
the traditional ancestral and unseeded territories of the Musquiham, Squamish
(55:23):
and Sleevetooth nations.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
And that's our show. My thanks to Cass Freeman for
chatting with us about the benefits of being involved in
improv theater and about her upcoming class on Granville Island.
Her email address is casan at Shaw dot cat, c
A s a n at Shaw dot Ca. And my
thanks to Shine Stockson for sharing her story of therapy
(55:45):
abuse and exploitation. Powerful, powerful story to share you all right,
Kelly Clarkson and the Sons of Legions, thank you for
the gift of your music, and to you, our listeners,
thank you for joining us today. Stay safe out there.
You've just listened to Rethreading Madness, where we dare to
change how we think about mental health. We air live
(56:06):
on Vancouver co Op Radio CFRO one hundred point five
FM every Tuesday at five pm, or online at co
opradio dot org. If you have questions or feedback about
this program, I want to share your story or have
something to say to us, we want to hear from you.
You can reach us by email Rethreading Madness at co
opradio dot org. This is Berndine Fox. We'll be back
(56:29):
next week.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Until then, we have ever been further goes, What the
hell I'm gonna do when I can't see?
Speaker 4 (56:44):
Fine?
Speaker 3 (56:44):
My way.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
Under over you just when I'm ready and give the bye?
Speaker 11 (56:57):
There you are when we turn light it It's sorry,
it's all right, Go to real, be alright. Why do
I always but when you tell me everything's gonna be
(57:18):
all right?
Speaker 1 (57:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (57:27):
Why don't I wonder how you know?
Speaker 11 (57:32):
Surely you don't have all of the facts.
Speaker 4 (57:37):
You could be just.
Speaker 11 (57:39):
Making it up. Why don't I ever think of that?
Speaker 2 (57:47):
So God, imagine in the words that you read, saying, baby,
take it from me.
Speaker 11 (57:56):
It's sorry, it's all right, don't too a REI be alright,
but always believe that when you.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Tell me everything's gonna be off right, everythings gonna be
off right than anyone else. It's such a cliche, just
words people say.
Speaker 3 (58:29):
To be nice.
Speaker 9 (58:32):
Somehow, and na far from yer. I'm convinced your.
Speaker 14 (59:03):
When I'm weary and so tired.
Speaker 11 (59:08):
When I'm worn out, and.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
When I fall off the why again, no more strength
to get back on.
Speaker 11 (59:23):
There you are, with that voice.
Speaker 5 (59:26):
In my.
Speaker 2 (59:28):
Saying the words, and I even hit it's.
Speaker 3 (59:32):
All right, it's all right, don't.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
Really alright, but A will. But when they tell me
everything's gonna be off everything is gonna be alad
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