June 24, 2025 • 60 mins
Exploring Transference with Amy Avalon
Trigger Warning: discusses therapy abuse
Bernadine sits down (virtually) with Amy Avalon, a retired psychotherapist and passionate advocate for survivors of sexual and emotional abuse by their therapists. Together, they traverse the issue of transference: What is it? How does it play out in our lives, and specifically in therapy? How can we work with it or use it to understand ourselves? When we are experiencing transference with our therapists, how do we talk about it and, most importantly, how should a therapist respond to those disclosures and what they should and should not do? Music by Shari Ulrich
Trigger Warning: discusses therapy abuse
Bernadine sits down (virtually) with Amy Avalon, a retired psychotherapist and passionate advocate for survivors of sexual and emotional abuse by their therapists. Together, they traverse the issue of transference: What is it? How does it play out in our lives, and specifically in therapy? How can we work with it or use it to understand ourselves? When we are experiencing transference with our therapists, how do we talk about it and, most importantly, how should a therapist respond to those disclosures and what they should and should not do? Music by Shari Ulrich
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Vancouver call op Radio cfr oh one
hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Musquium and slaghwy Tooth
nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernardine Fox, and
this is this show that dares to change how we
think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness. We ever been.
(00:29):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver Call OUP Radio
cfr oh one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox
and I have Amy avalon back to talk with us
about transference. Today. Amy has come and chatted with us
about several issues, mostly contained and around the issue of
therapy abuse. And this is no different. This is an
(00:52):
issue that comes into play around therapy abuse in a
very particular way, but it also is something that anyone
who lives with a mental health challenge who is working
with a therapist might come up against and might need
to understand a little bit about what they're going through.
So welcome Amy, Thanks for coming back.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thanks Brenandine. Always a pleasure to speak with you.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So Amy, you are a retired therapist, You're not doing
that work anymore. And you've also somebody who's done a
lot of work supporting survivors of therapy abuse and exploitation.
So you come to us with a lot of information
on both ends of this topic that I want to
talk to you about. So can you tell us? I mean,
(01:38):
we hear a lot about transference and it gets bantered around,
you know, you know, sort of a like all psych
words kind of get bantered around. But can you tell
us what transference is?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Sure? I mean, when you use that word transference, it
is the clinical term that people in the field of
mental health used to describe this phenomenon. But it's something
that happens in everyday life, and that's just the It's
really just the projection of feelings or attitudes or ideas
(02:12):
onto another person usually, I mean, it can certainly be
onto objects or situations that we have, and they're usually
not conscious to us. And it plays out in terms
of like it's reminding you things about your past. You
run into somebody who may look like your father, and
(02:32):
then you're going to start transferring onto them the same
attributes that your father had, are the same personality traits
subconsciously and expecting them to do or not do the
way that your father did or didn't do to you,
and they may have nothing to do with that person's
actual personality. So that's the phenomenon, is that you're sort
(02:54):
of that transference, is you're kind of making up a
story about someone else before you really know who they are,
and it's rooted in past experiences with another relationship. I
hope that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, can I parse it out just a little bit? Yeah,
So if we if we look at it from just
the perspective of somebody living their life in society, never
mind therapy to begin with, sometimes we can feel like, well,
let's just look at a love relationship that every person
(03:30):
we meet is somebody we end up not being able
to trust. Now, at what point are you projecting something
or is it really that you can't trust them? Like,
how do you parse that out to know what is
a projection and what is really something going on? I
(03:53):
don't think I said that very well?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Well, I think you did. I think I think it's
a really hard question because we live in this kind
of multi dimensional reality where are interacting with us with
their own ideas and projections about who we are and
vice versa. So I think we just have like, how
do we know if we can trust someone or not?
I think, like, as a therapist, I would say, when
(04:21):
we're able to trust ourselves, that's when we can have
the most success in any relationship. And when we're not,
we're not so reliant on anyone else's behavior because we
trust ourselves, we're not waiting for someone to behave in
a certain way.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
But but yeah, it's it's a it's a give and take.
It's it's definitely a very complicated phenomenon, and I can
understand why. You know, it's a confusing topic for anybody,
whether you're in therapy or not.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, it's it is confusing, and it is hard to
understand when you've you know, you're seeing the same pattern
happen over and over in your life. What part of
it is you projecting an idea onto everybody around you
because you need to work through that idea, or is
it that you keep picking the same person and they're
actually doing that, or is it you that you're doing
(05:15):
something that causes other people to be that way. So
it is it's hard to kind of pick all that out.
So when this happens, So is that the kind of
thing that happens when you enter a therapeutic relationship, is
that the same thing?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Well, yeah, I mean generally, when a client enters therapy,
they don't really know anything beyond like a very tertiary
bio about their therapist. So conversations begin in therapy and
the client may have a positive or negative transference based
on how the therapist looks or talks, or behaves or
(05:54):
walks or dresses all those kinds of things. Projections can happen.
They may have nothing to do with who the person
of the therapist actually is. But as the relationship progresses
in therapy and different patterns emerge in terms of that conversation,
(06:18):
a therapist can sort of notice patterns that are not
helpful for that client, sort of patterns that keep repeating
in lives, and they can explore whether or not that
client's transference is something that's getting in the way of
(06:39):
them seeing some of their relationships more clearly.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Right, And so that goes right into my next question,
how do you know if it's transference as a client
or as a therapist.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I mean, it's kind of like whether or not we
want to name it trans Like I said, that's just
the clinical term of this phenomenon that is kind of
always happening, just just going through our daily lives. We're
always seeing our world through the lens of our experiences
past present.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
You know.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
But I think that what is helpful in therapy is
if a client presents with a problem like, you know,
I don't know why my relationships keep ending in disaster,
or I don't know why I keep getting fired at
(07:38):
jobs no matter how hard I try to keep getting fired,
And then transference might occur where that client thinks that
the therapist is also going to fire them as a client.
You know, pretty common transparence that happens, like my therapist
doesn't want me there, My therapist doesn't really want to
(07:58):
work with me. And if you can bring that feeling,
you know, not, you know, the client maybe believes that's
really true. If you can bring it up with your therapist,
if it's a healthy therapy relationship, the therapists that can
can help the client to see like, wow, do you
do you often think that people are going to fire you?
Quit on you? Do you often feel like people are
(08:21):
going to abandon you, are going to you know, change
their mind about you? Is this and then explore tea
where did you first start learning this in your life?
And you can begin to notice that those patterns came
from past events, and that doesn't mean that the client
has to keep carrying them into future events. So once
(08:43):
you kind of realize, oh, you know, I've been I've
been anticipating that someone's going to hurt me, so I've
been trying to keep myself safe, you know. But I
don't have to do that anymore because the people that
I'm interacting with in my present day life are not
the same people that I grew up with, who you know,
failed me and what whatever way they may have. And
(09:06):
so then the client can begin to start their relationships
anew and just realize, you know, if they are having
those feelings again of just like, oh, this person doesn't
like me, doesn't want me here, they can more to say, oh,
I'm telling myself a story that's based in past experiences.
Let me before I make an assumption about this relationship.
Maybe I can ask some questions here to clarify and
(09:29):
see what's really going on. Transference is just a clinical
term for something that happens all day, every day in
this world.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
So transference doesn't just happen with a therapist. It happens
all our relationships.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, for example, like, and it's not it's not a
it's not necessarily like psychopathy or a neurosis or anything like,
it's not it's not a problem per se. It's something
to be worked with. It's just something that happens. So,
for example, so you and I are working really well
(10:06):
together now, Well, when when I first met you, my
transference because of my patterns in my history, like I
never think anybody wants to care, has any care what
I have to say about anything, So I would I
would be intimidated by you, and I'd be like, she
doesn't want me to talk on her radio show. She
must be nice to me because of you know, and
(10:29):
because I've worked on that in therapy, And I realized
that that's a story that I used to tell myself
all the time based on I mean, that's what I
used to hear in my family of origin. No one
cares what you have to say. You're stupid, and no
one really likes you. They're just being nice to you.
I mean I heard that almost every day in my life, right,
But I believe that about people, and it would it
(10:51):
would impact how I saw them, right and so like,
and I would sort of make it happen right because
I would I would tell myself that I believe it,
and then they'd ask me to do something, and I
would say, Oh, they don't really want you there, they're
just being nice, So I'd say, oh, I'm sorry, I'm busy,
and the relationship wouldn't go anywhere because they would stop
(11:13):
asking me because they would think, well, she doesn't want
to hang up with us, right. So that's I think
why it's so hard to explain this, because I mean,
like we're all doing it all the time.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And also the thing that you just talked about makes
it very hard to prove that it's a false thing
unless you do a false idea, right, unless you actually
step out of your comfort zone and say is this
how you think? Or is this how you feel about me?
Which is very hard to do when you're feeling that way, right, Like,
(11:47):
when you're feeling like nobody wants to hear you, why
would you even ask them do you want to hear me? Right? Like,
it's becomes a very hard thing to try and resolve.
So how do people know when they are experiencing transference
and when they are being insightful and it's the truth.
I mean, there are people out there that don't like
(12:09):
us and don't want to hear from us, and don't
want to pay attention to us and don't want to
be involved. I mean, there are people like that. So
how do you figure that out? Is it only by
coming out of your comfort zone and asking that question?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I mean, I think it's always a great idea whenever
you're comfortable to ask questions for clarity, you know, something like, hey,
I'm getting I'm getting the feeling that maybe you know
dot dot dot. If you're comfortable asking somebody that, that's great.
But one of the things that I would usually tell
people is when you have a thought of you know,
(12:48):
say this person doesn't want to be around me, and
you start to feel anxious and really uncomfortable, that is
usually that anxietiety. That sort of uncomfortable feeling is an
indication that it's probably transference. Because sometimes you have a
(13:08):
feeling about somebody and it just feels true, but you
don't have the anxiety. It's sort of an acceptance of
whatever it is. It doesn't evoke such a response in you.
I think all of us have had that situation where
it's like, oh, that person doesn't want to be around me,
and it's okay, we don't have anxiety. But the times
(13:31):
that we do, that's usually because we're projecting something from
the past onto someone else.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Would you say then that if you have those feelings
and one of the things that goes through your mind
this is you know, this always happens, nobody ever wants
to those kinds of grand statements that that might be
indicative that it's transference.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, always numb statements usually are not really are not
in reality, because nothing is really always or never with
relationships and also just anticipating what someone is going to do,
making assumptions, those kinds of things are usually rooted in transparence.
(14:14):
It's just based on you know, this is how it
always works out. This person says they're going to do
something and they're never going to follow through. You know,
that's usually based in in uh, in past patterns. That's
strands points.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
So if I'm getting you right, what I'm what I
If I were to, you know, sort of summarize what
we've kind of talked about here, it would be that
we are healing all the time, and a lot of
that healing happens through the relationships we have with other people,
and in doing that, these kinds of issues are going
(14:51):
to come up because that is what points us to
what needs to be worked on and processed through. Is
that mm hmm? Is that clear? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I think it's great summary, and I think it's it's
it's just so helpful too to seek clarity without attachment
or emotion, to sort of seek clarity. Are you feeling
this way? I'm thinking this. I wonder if I'm right
about it, and being able to have an open discussion
about those things as opposed to, you know, having this
(15:25):
emotionally charged response and making assumptions that follow from that
never talking about it, but behaving in a way that's
that might be kind of caustic to somebody else or
overly pleasing, you know, all of these different ways that
we cope with these stories in our mind that both
push people away or you know, make us withhold from relationships.
(15:51):
When we when we just sort of have frank conversations,
exploratory conversations with people, a lot of wonderful things can
come to light. A lot of clarity. Oh so that
at all? Oh, I you know, you can kind of
see where you were making an inference as opposed to,
you know, really seeing what the truth is.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
So don't go at it with you know, that feeling
you know, unloved or uncared for or or you know,
saying you always you know you don't love me or
you but more questions, this is what I'm getting from you?
Is this true? And just being able to get clarification
and assess from a non emotional tie, yeah, just from.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
A curiosity place. And again it's it's it's like that
work of therapy is so much internal work. It's the
work of self appreciation, self esteem, self love, the working
toward no longer depending on other people to treat you
in a certain way in order for us to feel fine,
(16:57):
to feel we feel a hole in ourselves and then
you know, people can think all sorts of things about us,
but it doesn't shake you know, we certainly will have
a response to that. That's human, but it doesn't shake
our core about ourselves.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Right, Okay, we just need to take a little break, amy,
but we'll be right back. Folks.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Tana yup, qui ge euons queen snah Hi, everybody, My
name is Quigate Eywon's I'm a member of the Squamish
Nation and the Yaglanis Klan of the Hyda Nation. You're
listening to co Op Radio CFRO O one hundred point
five FM. We live, work play and broadcast from the
traditional ancestral and unseeded territories of the Muskiam, Squamish and
(17:41):
Slave with Tooth nations.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
cfr OH one hundred point five f M. I'm Brennandine
Fox speaking with Amy Avlon about transference. Welcome back, Amy.
So we had that was a great conversation we've just
had about transference. But I want to sort of dive
into it a little bit more. I think, you know,
(18:03):
one of the questions I had from people was, am I,
how do I know I'm experiencing transference? And I think
you know, we answered that in that We we do
that all the time in all our relationships. And even
when you think you got it down pat and you've
figured it all out, You've probably run up against somebody
who will bring up another issue. And it's because it
is a part of our healing process. So so given
(18:27):
that we know that everybody is going to experience transference
when they go into say, therapy, or into a relationship.
What are the different kinds of transference? Like somebody asked
about attachment transference, and of course there's certainly the romantic,
erotic kinds of transference. But let's talk a little bit
(18:47):
about what kinds of transference clients might experience.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Well, certainly the you know the two that you mentioned transference.
It just comes in all different shape aids.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It can be financial transference. You know, you might think
someone's really really wealthy when they're not, or really really
poor when they're not, right, based on how you grew
up and what people how people showed or didn't show
their wealth. Right, It could be erotic transference, it could
be attachment. And I think as far as I'm concerned,
(19:23):
it doesn't really matter what it is. It's it's still
the client is having or the person is having their
own experience of another without and making assumptions about someone
or responding without getting clarity on the other person's situation
or intent. And that is what can harm a relationship,
(19:45):
whether it's a you know, a romantic relationship, a professional relationship.
You know, I'm sure every listener has been in the
situation where someone has made an assumption about them without
even asking a question, and that person has responded to
them in a negative way, and it was totally unnecessary
(20:07):
if that person had just asked a clarifying question.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
And is that transference that people are doing that?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, they're projecting an assumption onto somebody. They're believing it's
true whatever they're telling themselves, and then they're responding out
of that assumption, and it's it can be damaging because
the other person is feeling like, I didn't I didn't
think what you're thinking. I'm thinking I didn't do what
you're thinking. I'm doing right, And you know, when someone's
(20:38):
really deep in their subconscious transference, they're just convinced that
they are seeing this person clearly, and that's when there's
a relationship breakdown because the other person is feeling completely
unseen and accused of things they haven't done or you know,
and and that's when you know, relationships really suffer.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
So this is kind of an aside, but it's not
what you're what you're talking about then makes sense about
why a therapist should not make personal disclosures to a
large degree in that healing relationship and and why a
client should not want their therapist to be their friend,
(21:22):
because once you do that, then the therapist can't know
where where something's transference, where it's something to do with them.
I mean, then then then it all gets murky, right,
like do you know what I mean? Like if the
if the therapist isn't disclosing personal information and isn't putting
that out there, then what is coming from the client
(21:44):
really is can be said to be mostly from them?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Well? Absolutely, Yeah, And also because you want the therapy
to be about the client and not therapist. Yeah, there's
really no reason for this therapist to make any personal
disclosures because then it just you know, just gradually over time,
it's a great distraction for the client to not face
(22:10):
some of the things that they don't really want to
look at, which of course that's a human thing. We
don't always want to look at our shadow side or
the thing's getting in our way. But but yeah, there's
no there's no reason to have any sort of friendship
with your therapist, any chumminess that's that's not going to
(22:30):
help you meet your goals in therapy as as quickly
as just a therapist who really is focused on what
your patterns are, what what's coming up for you, what's
getting in your way, and looking on the client finding
a way out of those patterns, out of their grip.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
There also would mean that if the therapist is not
disclosing their personal stuff, so you're not really you're not
reacting to that in your therapy or trying to, you know,
take care of your therapist in that way. But then
at the same time with counter transference, isn't happening in
the same way for the therapist because of course transference
(23:13):
and counter transferent goes hand in hand, and so once
you once you take a relationship over that professional healing relationship,
you start dealing with really murky transference and counter transference
stuff I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Right, And I mean a lot of the training that
we go through as therapists is to elicit our own
transference and so that we will be prepared for what
counter transference might come up in our work, and we
do that in supervision. So you would never process your
countertransference with a client, and usually you'll see that that's
(23:50):
a boundary violation. If you have a therapist who's really
talking about their counter transference towards you. I would I
would go see another therapist because there's no reason for
them to be talking about their contra transference with you. Yeah,
I mean they might be able to say I imagine
that other people might respond to you in this way,
But for a therapist to sort of get in there
(24:12):
and say, personally, you remind me of my first husband
and I'm having a reaction to that, that's not appropriate
in therapy.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
No, it's not, absolutely not. So let's talk about let's
just go to romantic transference or erotic transference. I kind
of see them as two different things, but other people
might not. What is that SETH say, What might the
client be experiencing in that.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Well?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I mean, I think it's going to depend on how
the relationship unfolds and therapy. Romantic transference can obviously happen
to any of us when we have someone who is
just regarding us in a positive way, which often happens
when you're in a good therapeutic relationship. Your therapist is
in your corner and really is wanting to support you
(25:07):
in meeting whatever goals you've outlined that you want to
meet in therapy. Through therapy and having someone in your
corner like that. Maybe you know, for some people, that's
the first time it's ever happened to them in their
lives and is just really wanting them to succeed and
with no benefit for themselves beyond you know, just the fee, right.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
So they can start to you know, have feelings of
romance or love, like even erotic you know, sexual nature
because it's like, wow, this person really cares about me,
really wants me to succeed, and you know, we're all human,
and sometimes that can elicit feelings of like, wow, I
(25:56):
wish I could see this person outside of therapy. I
wish they would be my friend, I wish they would
be my lover, because this is what I'm looking for
in a relationship, right, because I have it here, why
not just you know, why can't I just move forward
with this person the And that's where the transference comes
into play, because it isn't it isn't unique to that person.
(26:20):
It's that the client is receptive to someone you know,
helping them with their goals number one, and they're just
witnessing someone who you know is ready to help, so
they can mimic that. They can sort of look for
that in other relationships outside of the therapy, but it's
(26:42):
not appropriate for it to happen with the therapist.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
So one of the things I think that does happen
for clients, it's certainly a percentage of them, is that,
you know, wanting those personal details, wanting their therapists to
disclose personal stuff. Can I'll allow them to feel safe
in a way they can't when they don't know who
that person is. And so if you've come through a
(27:07):
childhood where you haven't had anybody you can trust, not
knowing who that person is can leave you feeling unsafe
and of course not having any tools to know how
to deal with being unsafe. So if you're one of
those people that has never felt safe in a close relationship,
(27:31):
how might you bridge wanting to know stuff like where
as a therapist, how would you advise a client to
go back to their therapist and talk to them about
needing personal information because it will make them feel safer.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I think that's such an important issue because it makes
a lot of sense what you're saying, And so a
client who would feel that way, like wanting to know
that personal information in order to feel safe, that makes
so much sense. It's just that if the therapist indulges
that need, it indulges the pattern that says I need
(28:13):
to know what to expect of other people in order
to keep myself safe, because I can't keep myself safe
on my own. Because they're conditioned to like, let me
know this about you and then make all sorts of
inferences about that information to judge whether or not or
how to behave how to alter their behavior to please
(28:37):
that person, right, I mean, that's one of the underlying
motivations is let me learn this stuff about you so
I can get a good read on you, and I
can change and tailor my behavior so that you won't
harm me.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
And of course, then you're never living your own life.
You're just living where you're sort of a monkey performing
for other people, which is part of why people are
so feeling disconnected, unseen and depressed or anxious.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
And so.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
When the therapist holds the boundary and says, you know what,
this is about your therapy, This isn't about me and
my personal details, they're also modeling that you can have
boundaries too, to their client, like, this is what it
looks like to say no and have that enough. And
(29:28):
because for a lot of people who feel unsafe their
boundaries have been violated. They haven't been able to say
no because it was too dangerous for them, And so
you're getting the therapists who is showing them how to
say no in a kind way and to stay firm
with that boundary. And that's how the client kind of
(29:49):
can learn oh, that's what it looks like, boundaried person.
So that not everybody has access to all of your
personal information too, because a lot of the people who
feel like they have to know a lot about their
therapists also feel like other people are entitled to their
personally for me right right exactly?
Speaker 1 (30:09):
So how would you advise that client to go back
to the therapist and try and talk about.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
That about wanting to know personal people? Yeah, yeah, I
mean I think it's okay to say I'm having a
feeling of like, I feel unsafe not knowing who you are,
not knowing about your you know, personal life, and the
therapists can let them know. I mean through you would
(30:38):
want your therapist to ask you questions like when did
you do you remember when this first started, when you
first started feeling this way? What would happen if you
did know these things. For example, if you knew X,
Y and Z, then what would happen? So it's sort
of like and then what, and then what and then
what this series of questions like why do you need
to know this? And then the client can kind of
(31:00):
begin to see it isn't that I need to know
if you're married, or it's it's I need to know
that I am safe, like you were saying. And that's
where the conversation begins, where it's like, how do we
learn to become safe in an unsafe world with people?
Because that's really the work, because otherwise you're just going
(31:20):
to be at the mercy of whoever you're interacting with
all day, every day. So the client has to has
to learn to have their own boundaries, learn to ask
appropriate questions of other people, learn to tolerate being told no,
you know, and and that way they can they can
start to know like who they are as a person
(31:43):
outside of those patterns of anticipating what other people might need.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
First, Yeah, it's a very good answer, thank you. That
makes hard work.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
It's hard work because especially a lot of a lot
of us in Western society are raised to please people
in authority. Yes we are and subjugate our own needs
in order to survive and please those people, and we
(32:18):
think that's normal, and we never learn how to become
our own authority.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And that's a very sad fact. It really is. I
you know, you know, to imagine that somebody, it's not me.
God knows if you know me. I'm a very opinionated,
loud mouth, you know, person that stands up so but
it makes me feel sad. I certainly know what it
(32:46):
is like to be that person, because that was me
at one point, and it would be very sad in
my mind if people went through their whole lives not
experiencing being able to own their own lives and own
their own thoughts and own their own onions and stand
up for them. Can transference damage a relationship, a therapeutic relationship,
(33:09):
I think.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
If it's never fully explored and the client is just
left to to make assumptions about the therapists and constantly
reacting to those assumptions, you know, it can it can
damage it if a client continually believes the therapist really
has no interest in their well being, and they really
(33:35):
believe that and they have no trust in the therapist,
you know, really wanting to support them achieving their goals.
I mean, I don't know how you can really get anywhere,
you know.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
It would be hard. I'm just wondering whether or not,
as you say that, whether or not a client could
you know, who's not ready to talk to the therapist
about it at some point if they recognize that there's transference,
if there's some way that they could process that on
their own. But we can talk about that in a bit.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
When you are, Can I just say one thing, Oh, yes,
I think it's so important to I think it's really
important for people to feel safe in terms of responsibility.
So taking responsibility is one of the greatest things that
can happen to a person in their life. It's done
(34:24):
in a way where they aren't feeling blamed, but they're
feeling empowered through responsibility. So when I when I feel
confident enough that I can take responsibility for oh, I
made an assumption about you and it was incorrect, and
let me find out what is actually true for you. Right,
I'm taking responsibility that you know I made this false assumption,
(34:49):
but it doesn't it's like I made an error. It
doesn't mean that I am an error. And I think
that's the big shift that clients can really make is like,
it's okay to be wrong about about other people, but
if you continue to not take responsibility for telling yourself
a story about someone without getting clarity, and then you know,
(35:12):
you're not able to admit that, you know, oh, I
was telling myself a story and you were bearing the
brunt of that story. I think that's what becomes damaging.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, yeah, because if you never sort of work it through,
then you're making decisions based on something that is reinforcing
something in your life that maybe isn't real.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yeah. And there's that difference between because some people will say, well,
then now you're saying it was all my fault. It's
like there's a difference between taking responsibility for thinking something
that needs to be you know, amended, and something where
it's like, oh, it's all my fault, right, it's just
that you were incorrect about something and being incorrect as
(35:57):
a part of life, and it's okay.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
God, it is a part of life. Let me confirm
that I make mistakes so momentized.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, but I think a lot of us are grown
up where we're raised to believe we can't make any mistakes.
And if it's my fault. That means like it's the
end of the world. And so so that's also can
happen in therapy, where it's like mistakes are fine. All
we have to do is have a conversation about it
and and you know.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Absolutely good. And it's really freeing and empowering to recognize
you're somebody who can make a mistake. Yes, loved, it's
just like, oh my god, I am free.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Speaking of Romantic and Eurotic transfer. When when you can
you know state freely that you've made a mistake and
that you were wrong about something and you still have
this wonderful positive regard coming from someone else, that also
can begin to feel like, wow, I've never experienced this before.
This is a you know, and so it's it's pretty
(37:03):
human for those feelings to come up like wow, gosh,
this person is wonderful. I'd love to get to know
them better. And that's why it's so important for the
therapist to hold like we're doing the work of therapy
here and help you to have to use these new
skills in your relationships outside of the work here. But
this is therapy. This isn't this isn't you know, this
(37:27):
isn't work. So that you can have a relationship with
your therapist. That would be the therapist exploiting all of that
all of that work that they're doing with the client.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
I want to talk about that a whole lot more,
but we need to take a little break and we'll
be right.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
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(38:01):
On the first and second Saturday of every month. It's
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On CFRO one hundred point five FM, Vancouver Cooperative Radio.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
You're listening to me threading Madness on Vancouver cop Radio
CFR oh one hundred point five FM. I'm ren named Fox,
continuing on a conversation with Amy Avalon about transference. Amy
you are a retired therapist. You trained as a therapist,
and in that training, at what point were you trained
about transference and what were you told about it?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
You know, it started on the very first day of training.
Even in an orientation we were we were transference was
just right there for all of us to talk about
because it happens all the time. And in my orientation,
when we were in a big group and those group
(39:01):
dynamics were starting to come into play, that was how
we were getting to know ourselves as therapists and where
we were starting to highlight what we had to watch
out for in our own counter transference is like, what
were we assuming that other people were thinking about us?
What were we assuming our professors were thinking about us? So, yeah,
(39:21):
it starts from day one, at least in my training.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
So were you told that tom transference is real and
something that should be acted on? Or what? How was
transference described to you?
Speaker 2 (39:36):
So transference was described to me as just like all
of these projections that we have that we put on
people that are rooted in past relationships that may or
may not have anything to do with you know. I mean,
it's like if you're meeting someone for the very first time,
Like I was with my professors or fellow students on
that day, and I'm making assumptions based on you know,
(39:58):
my own lens from where I grew up and who
I grew up with. You know, that's absolutely transference. I
know nothing about these people.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Right, Okay, that makes sense?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yeah, yeah, And you realize like, oh my gosh, I
was really wrong about that person, and you start to
see because it's very convincing inside. It's like, oh, we
make judgments about people all the times we go through
the world, and a lot of them are based on archetypes.
So that person was probably a geek, or that person
was probably a cheerleader, or that person, you know, people
(40:29):
that they really look They make all these assumptions and
then you find out that they weren't true. They were
you know, what you perceived to be a geek, to
be what you perceive to be, a bully, you know,
all those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
So a client, I mean, one of the questions that
came was, how do I tell whether I'm really in
love with my therapist or is this transference? How do
I how do I know what's real? Because transference feels real.
It's not like you know there's some way of you know,
(41:04):
reality check that happens. It's just, you know, it's a
real feeling that you're having. How do you know that
it's really love or really transference?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
So the therapist in the therapeutic relationship, when you have
someone who's listening to you and who's supporting your goals,
and you start to feel like you're in love with
that person, Usually the phenomenon that can be really helpful
in therapy is because this therapist is mirroring you, is
(41:38):
reflecting back to you some of the things that you're
thinking about, and is often reflecting back to you some
of the very greatest qualities that you possess that maybe
have remained hidden from you or that you don't get
a lot of accolades for in your outside life. The
client is actually falling in love with themselves, but they're
(42:00):
thinking that it's the therapist, But it's the therapist is
really mirroring back. When it's effective therapy, the therapist is
mirroring back what's happening for this client. And sometimes in
therapy is the first time in a person's life where
(42:21):
they were focused upon lovingly, lovingly, compassionately, like it may
not have ever happened to them before where someone was
solely focused on what they wanted. I mean, most of
us grow up even when our parents adore us or
our siblings adore us in the way that they want to, well,
we often feel or hear you don't want that, you
(42:47):
want this, or we're told that we're selfish for the
things that we want, which you know, it's kind of
funny because you're being selfish because you're not doing what
I want you to do right right, So you know,
it's a very it can be just a really different
experience to be listened to, to be really seen, to have
someone your therapist remember what you talked about from week
(43:11):
to week, and so you know, it may have the
client might feel like they're falling in love with somebody,
but really it's just the process is something that they
haven't experienced before, and it's an enjoyable process. And that
doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, it's still an unequal
(43:36):
relationship because everything has been about the client and very
very little about the therapist. So you know, in a
love relationship, a healthy love relationship, it's a lot of
give and take. So the therapeutic relationship where you're feeling
like you're falling in love. Well, the whole thing has
been about the client.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
And their goals, or it should be.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
It should be. Yeah, So you know that wouldn't transfer
into a healthy love relationship, you know, to have everything
just about about you know, the client, right. I think
that's that's kind of what we all wanted when we
were infants, is we just wanted to be you know,
(44:17):
cared for and the only thing that was, you know,
like the center of someone's life.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
But then we grow up and we have relationships where
other people have needs, we have needs, and there should
be a trade off, but usually there's an imbalance. But
in therapy it's definitely all about the client's needs or
it should be.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Y, it should be. So just a little bit of clarification.
Is love transference the same as sexual transference? And I
know the two kind of go hand in hand, and
one could infer that they go that it's the same thing,
but I'm not exactly sure that it is.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yeah, definitely, because obviously you can feel a lot of
love for someone and have no desire, no sexual desire
for them, and vice versa, have a lot of sexual
design for someone and have very little love. I mean,
we've certainly seen relationships like that, but I think I
think what's also just really important to highlight is that
(45:21):
the relationship between the therapists and the client is a
professional one, and and love is such a I mean, gosh,
we could have like a whole series of shows our
lives on what that means and what that is. But
in terms of what I think you mean by by
love here is sort of like you're the person for me,
(45:43):
maybe we're soulmates, maybe we're meant to be together in
a in a in a more traditional way on the outside,
not in a professional way, and like a you know,
a more committed relationship, and that that's just not appropriate
for the therapeutic reallyationship.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I think one of the things that I hear a
lot in terms of supporting survivors of therapy abuse and exploitation,
which I do when I'm not on the radio, is
often they're talking and they say things like I had
no sexual attraction to this person at all. He was
like a grandpa, and then suddenly I was sexually attracted.
(46:23):
I think that kind of thing is probably one of
those red flags that this is transference.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Yes, oh, absolutely, absolutely Okay, there's transference there. And again,
like we've said, transference is something that's happening to all
of us all the time, right, go through life. However,
I guess the example that I'd use here is say
you go to a film, You go to the cinema,
(46:50):
and you have a whole range of emotions in response
to what you're seeing on the screen. Maybe try, maybe
you laugh, maybe you feel like so, you know, scared,
maybe you feel such relief. Right, and the film is
written and filmed and all of the music and everything,
(47:11):
all the lighting is there to elicit those responses in
the audience, right, it's manufactured that way.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Yep, it is actually having worked on film back and
absolutely agree, right, and.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
They and they do a lot of research on this
and they kind of what works, and many people will
report having the same responses, the same people who saw
the same film. And abusive therapists who elicit these responses
are also using techniques to elicit responses in people where
(47:42):
they weren't there before. You weren't having those feelings till
you went into the cinema and you witnessed all these
things on the screen, but they aren't real. You leave
the cinema and you leave the movie behind. The problem
is when you have an abusive therapist who is using
tactics that elicit these emotions inside of the client through
(48:03):
manipulation and exploitation of all their knowledge about the dreams
and the fantasies and the history of this client that
they've had, you know, they've had access to the client
can very easily mistake that is like, oh, wow, this person,
you know, this person is feeling something that is quote real,
but really it's it's manipulation, just like a movie.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
So let's talk about that because one of the things
that we often hear people being told is that if
you have sexual transference or love transference with your therapist,
the thing that you should do is go and talk
to them and that they will help you. That's mostly
what clients are told. They're not told anything more else.
They're just told, go and talk to your therapist. And
(48:50):
of course that presumes that your therapist is a good therapist,
an ethical therapist that is in fact going to use
their training and skill to help you with that transference.
What we see in the work that we do around
survivors of therapy abuse and exploitation is how bad therapist,
an abusive therapist will misuse that transference. So can we
(49:13):
talk a little bit about what clients should expect to
happen if they go in and talk to their therapist
about say, sexual transference.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Well, I mean, just before we even get into that,
it's just so important for all clients to know that
the therapeutic relationship is no place for sex or romantic touching,
or financial help to the therapist or bartering any of
those things. That's just not It's kind of like you're
(49:51):
that just that relationship is a professional one, and that's
that's you know, the standards are that no relationships of
that kind are to happen in that professional relationship, right.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
And that's true even if it's a destiny.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Or age or a.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Past life for any of the things that we hear about. Okay,
in fact, if.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Hearing those things destiny, soulmate, you can bet that those
are all related to those manipulative tactics.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Yes, and you should immediately get up out of your
chair and leave absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
And you know, the therapist may never have said those things.
A client might be feeling them and he's just realized
that we've all grown up in a society where we've
been hearing those things movies and TV and books and everything,
so that you know, everything is so romanticized, and I
think it's just normal human nature for us to look
(50:46):
for that, you know, because it feels good. But in
terms of talking to your therapist, because it's like, if
it's distracting you and it's really getting in the way
of you working on anything else, you can say, you know,
I'm Certainly clients are encouraged to say I'm distracted because
I have these feelings for you, and a good therapist
(51:07):
will know that that does happen. And again it's because
of that mirroring. So the client is actually kind of
falling in love with themselves, right, and all of the
qualities that the therapist is mirroring back, right, But the therapist
will separate out those feelings from you know them as
(51:29):
as a person, depersonalize the feelings that the client is
bringing in transparence and say, well, of course you would
feel that way, because it's likely that you haven't been
in a situation before where you were paid so much attention,
your feelings were honored, your very being was honored, and
so you know, yeah, it's normal for you to feel like, oh,
(51:50):
maybe this is you know, what I've been looking for
my whole life. Like maybe a client kind of feels
that way, and then immediately the boundary comes, it says,
and it's it's normal to have those feelings. And in
this professional relationship, we're working on you being able to
care enough about yourself that you will not settle for
any less in your relationships outside of our work together.
(52:13):
So those old patterns that we're defeating you or keeping
you anxious, keeping you depressed, you know, we're going to
leave those patterns behind. And you know, the client's going
to learn new ways of being in the world and
being in relationship with other people, so that this isn't
the only place where they're finding someone who is warm
(52:35):
to them, someone who you know, sees them properly, someone
who listens to them. Does that make any sense?
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Yeah, So then how would the therapist begin that process
of working with that stuff?
Speaker 2 (52:47):
I think it's I mean, I think it's going to
depend on how the how the therapist is practicing, you know,
at what stage the relationship is like. But for example,
if a client came to me and said, you know,
I'm having a hard time, you know, focusing on these
goals because I'm having, you know, these feelings for you,
and I sort of wish that we could be friends.
I wish we could meet for coffee. And I would say,
(53:10):
you know, those those things happen in therapy, and I
would explain to them what transference is, just like we've
been talking about today. And generally, if you're feeling distracted
by something like that, it might be because there's something
else that you don't want to look at right as
much fun to look at, and I wonder what that
(53:31):
could be. And and you know, sometimes we just want
to deal with like sort of the good things, but
you have to look at some of the painful things,
and and so you know, it also might be like
you're feeling this way towards me, right, You're feeling these
these warm feelings towards me, And in the hopes of
(53:54):
those warm feelings being real, then maybe I won't disappoint
you right by pushing you out of your comfort zone,
by do things that are hard, asking you to do
things that you know, like, for example, owning that you've
made an assumption about someone in your life and going
to them and asking them to clarify, or going and
(54:16):
making an apology, or setting a boundary with someone who
is not easy to say no to, you know, or
setting a boundary with an addiction, you know. So sometimes
the transference can be warm that way, so that it's like,
if I like you enough, will you not make me
do these things that I don't want. But again, like
(54:37):
one of the things that we talk about here on
your show is also just like what a therapist should
not say, and therapists should not and you know you've
heard me say this before. All feelings are normal, acting
on them is not so so just because a therapist
normalizes how you feel towards them in terms of yes,
(54:58):
erotic sexual transfer can happen, that's very normal, But that
doesn't mean it's normal for the therapist to then start
eliciting more of those feelings from you and acting on
those feelings in terms of you know, meeting for coffee,
having a sexual relationship, touching, you know, having you start
(55:19):
paying for their you know, any debts that they have,
doing cleaning in their house, babysitting their children, you know,
any any of those kinds of things, borrowing money, buying
real estate, all of these things that start to get
clouded in marquee, you know, the therapist should never start
(55:40):
moving you towards acting on any of those feelings.
Speaker 1 (55:45):
And also one of the other things is I would assume,
I believe, is that a therapist should not say something
like well, I kind of feel like that too, but
we're in a their relationship, so we can't do anything
about that now, but we could after the healing relationship
(56:05):
is over, because that that stops a lot of healing.
I would imagine if you're not using the transference as
a healing tool, but using it as something is ultimately
an abusive tool that is impacting on your healing as well.
Speaker 2 (56:23):
Right, So that example that you you just that you
just used, that's exactly the kind of manipulative, exploitative tactic
that we were kind of talking about a few minutes ago.
And it's very flood all, isn't it. You know, It's like,
you know, it seems like just a validating comment, but
it's really not. And one of the ways that a
client can kind of figure this out, it's hard when
(56:45):
you're in it. That's why it's helpful to you know,
have friends to talk to. Is when you talk about
transference with your therapist, assuming that you're in a healthy relationship,
you should come away from that conversation about transference with
the transference having less charge. When you find that it
(57:09):
has more charge, then that's not helpful territory. So, for example,
if the therapist responded the way that you just said, oh,
you know, I'm glad you brought that up, because actually
I feel that way too. But this is but right,
but is always a touchy yes, But we can't do
that here because and you know, in another world, you know,
(57:33):
if we had met before this, if we have you know,
so you the client will likely come away even more desirous,
with more and less settled, more distracted. And now now
they're really that therapist is really committing a violation and
(57:54):
being exploitive, manipulative. You know, they're not doing something that's
all helpful for the client, because there's nothing helpful in
that statement.
Speaker 1 (58:07):
I mean, we have to stop. I'm sorry, Oh I
never want to stop talking with you.
Speaker 2 (58:12):
One thing, if I can just add one thing, you sure,
even when you have those feelings, the therapist is always
the one you're going to their office. They're deciding when
it starts and stops. I mean it's just it's not
a relationship between equals at all.
Speaker 1 (58:26):
No, it's not, and it never will be in my opinion,
even even after the fact, it can never It can
never be because it was based on that imbalance of power.
Thank you, Amy for coming and chatting with me about this.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. It's
going to be a valuable podcast and radio program for
(58:48):
people to hear because too often as clients we're left
in the dark about what is transference and how to
work with yet, So thank you.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
Thank you. Yeah, it is such a thanks.
Speaker 1 (59:02):
It's complicated, but it's not at the same time, it's
just really simple. You know you're having whatever you're having
a feeling about your therapist, it's probably about you. That's
about as simple as it gets. So okay, thank you,
and we'll be right back, folks, and that's our show.
My thanks to Amy Avalon for coming and chatting with
me about transference, and to Sharry Alrich for the gift
(59:24):
of her music, and to you our listeners for joining
us today. Stay safe out there. You've just listened to
Rethreading Madness, where we dare to change how we think
about mental health. We air live on Vancouver co Op
Radio CFRI one hundred point five FM every Tuesday at
five pm, or online at co opradio dot org. If
you have questions or feedback about this program, or want
(59:47):
to share your story, or have something to say to us,
we want to hear from you. You can reach us
by email, rethreading madness at co opradio dot org. This
is Berndine Fox. We'll be back next week. Until then,
You're listening to Vancouver call op Radio cfr oh one
hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Musquium and slaghwy Tooth
nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernardine Fox, and
this is this show that dares to change how we
think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness. We ever been.
(00:29):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver Call OUP Radio
cfr oh one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox
and I have Amy avalon back to talk with us
about transference. Today. Amy has come and chatted with us
about several issues, mostly contained and around the issue of
therapy abuse. And this is no different. This is an
(00:52):
issue that comes into play around therapy abuse in a
very particular way, but it also is something that anyone
who lives with a mental health challenge who is working
with a therapist might come up against and might need
to understand a little bit about what they're going through.
So welcome Amy, Thanks for coming back.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thanks Brenandine. Always a pleasure to speak with you.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So Amy, you are a retired therapist, You're not doing
that work anymore. And you've also somebody who's done a
lot of work supporting survivors of therapy abuse and exploitation.
So you come to us with a lot of information
on both ends of this topic that I want to
talk to you about. So can you tell us? I mean,
(01:38):
we hear a lot about transference and it gets bantered around,
you know, you know, sort of a like all psych
words kind of get bantered around. But can you tell
us what transference is?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Sure? I mean, when you use that word transference, it
is the clinical term that people in the field of
mental health used to describe this phenomenon. But it's something
that happens in everyday life, and that's just the It's
really just the projection of feelings or attitudes or ideas
(02:12):
onto another person usually, I mean, it can certainly be
onto objects or situations that we have, and they're usually
not conscious to us. And it plays out in terms
of like it's reminding you things about your past. You
run into somebody who may look like your father, and
(02:32):
then you're going to start transferring onto them the same
attributes that your father had, are the same personality traits
subconsciously and expecting them to do or not do the
way that your father did or didn't do to you,
and they may have nothing to do with that person's
actual personality. So that's the phenomenon, is that you're sort
(02:54):
of that transference, is you're kind of making up a
story about someone else before you really know who they are,
and it's rooted in past experiences with another relationship. I
hope that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, can I parse it out just a little bit? Yeah,
So if we if we look at it from just
the perspective of somebody living their life in society, never
mind therapy to begin with, sometimes we can feel like, well,
let's just look at a love relationship that every person
(03:30):
we meet is somebody we end up not being able
to trust. Now, at what point are you projecting something
or is it really that you can't trust them? Like,
how do you parse that out to know what is
a projection and what is really something going on? I
(03:53):
don't think I said that very well?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Well, I think you did. I think I think it's
a really hard question because we live in this kind
of multi dimensional reality where are interacting with us with
their own ideas and projections about who we are and
vice versa. So I think we just have like, how
do we know if we can trust someone or not?
I think, like, as a therapist, I would say, when
(04:21):
we're able to trust ourselves, that's when we can have
the most success in any relationship. And when we're not,
we're not so reliant on anyone else's behavior because we
trust ourselves, we're not waiting for someone to behave in
a certain way.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
But but yeah, it's it's a it's a give and take.
It's it's definitely a very complicated phenomenon, and I can
understand why. You know, it's a confusing topic for anybody,
whether you're in therapy or not.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, it's it is confusing, and it is hard to
understand when you've you know, you're seeing the same pattern
happen over and over in your life. What part of
it is you projecting an idea onto everybody around you
because you need to work through that idea, or is
it that you keep picking the same person and they're
actually doing that, or is it you that you're doing
(05:15):
something that causes other people to be that way. So
it is it's hard to kind of pick all that out.
So when this happens, So is that the kind of
thing that happens when you enter a therapeutic relationship, is
that the same thing?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Well, yeah, I mean generally, when a client enters therapy,
they don't really know anything beyond like a very tertiary
bio about their therapist. So conversations begin in therapy and
the client may have a positive or negative transference based
on how the therapist looks or talks, or behaves or
(05:54):
walks or dresses all those kinds of things. Projections can happen.
They may have nothing to do with who the person
of the therapist actually is. But as the relationship progresses
in therapy and different patterns emerge in terms of that conversation,
(06:18):
a therapist can sort of notice patterns that are not
helpful for that client, sort of patterns that keep repeating
in lives, and they can explore whether or not that
client's transference is something that's getting in the way of
(06:39):
them seeing some of their relationships more clearly.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Right, And so that goes right into my next question,
how do you know if it's transference as a client
or as a therapist.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I mean, it's kind of like whether or not we
want to name it trans Like I said, that's just
the clinical term of this phenomenon that is kind of
always happening, just just going through our daily lives. We're
always seeing our world through the lens of our experiences
past present.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
You know.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
But I think that what is helpful in therapy is
if a client presents with a problem like, you know,
I don't know why my relationships keep ending in disaster,
or I don't know why I keep getting fired at
(07:38):
jobs no matter how hard I try to keep getting fired,
And then transference might occur where that client thinks that
the therapist is also going to fire them as a client.
You know, pretty common transparence that happens, like my therapist
doesn't want me there, My therapist doesn't really want to
(07:58):
work with me. And if you can bring that feeling,
you know, not, you know, the client maybe believes that's
really true. If you can bring it up with your therapist,
if it's a healthy therapy relationship, the therapists that can
can help the client to see like, wow, do you
do you often think that people are going to fire you?
Quit on you? Do you often feel like people are
(08:21):
going to abandon you, are going to you know, change
their mind about you? Is this and then explore tea
where did you first start learning this in your life?
And you can begin to notice that those patterns came
from past events, and that doesn't mean that the client
has to keep carrying them into future events. So once
(08:43):
you kind of realize, oh, you know, I've been I've
been anticipating that someone's going to hurt me, so I've
been trying to keep myself safe, you know. But I
don't have to do that anymore because the people that
I'm interacting with in my present day life are not
the same people that I grew up with, who you know,
failed me and what whatever way they may have. And
(09:06):
so then the client can begin to start their relationships
anew and just realize, you know, if they are having
those feelings again of just like, oh, this person doesn't
like me, doesn't want me here, they can more to say, oh,
I'm telling myself a story that's based in past experiences.
Let me before I make an assumption about this relationship.
Maybe I can ask some questions here to clarify and
(09:29):
see what's really going on. Transference is just a clinical
term for something that happens all day, every day in
this world.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
So transference doesn't just happen with a therapist. It happens
all our relationships.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, for example, like, and it's not it's not a
it's not necessarily like psychopathy or a neurosis or anything like,
it's not it's not a problem per se. It's something
to be worked with. It's just something that happens. So,
for example, so you and I are working really well
(10:06):
together now, Well, when when I first met you, my
transference because of my patterns in my history, like I
never think anybody wants to care, has any care what
I have to say about anything, So I would I
would be intimidated by you, and I'd be like, she
doesn't want me to talk on her radio show. She
must be nice to me because of you know, and
(10:29):
because I've worked on that in therapy, And I realized
that that's a story that I used to tell myself
all the time based on I mean, that's what I
used to hear in my family of origin. No one
cares what you have to say. You're stupid, and no
one really likes you. They're just being nice to you.
I mean I heard that almost every day in my life, right,
But I believe that about people, and it would it
(10:51):
would impact how I saw them, right and so like,
and I would sort of make it happen right because
I would I would tell myself that I believe it,
and then they'd ask me to do something, and I
would say, Oh, they don't really want you there, they're
just being nice, So I'd say, oh, I'm sorry, I'm busy,
and the relationship wouldn't go anywhere because they would stop
(11:13):
asking me because they would think, well, she doesn't want
to hang up with us, right. So that's I think
why it's so hard to explain this, because I mean,
like we're all doing it all the time.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And also the thing that you just talked about makes
it very hard to prove that it's a false thing
unless you do a false idea, right, unless you actually
step out of your comfort zone and say is this
how you think? Or is this how you feel about me?
Which is very hard to do when you're feeling that way, right, Like,
(11:47):
when you're feeling like nobody wants to hear you, why
would you even ask them do you want to hear me? Right? Like,
it's becomes a very hard thing to try and resolve.
So how do people know when they are experiencing transference
and when they are being insightful and it's the truth.
I mean, there are people out there that don't like
(12:09):
us and don't want to hear from us, and don't
want to pay attention to us and don't want to
be involved. I mean, there are people like that. So
how do you figure that out? Is it only by
coming out of your comfort zone and asking that question?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I mean, I think it's always a great idea whenever
you're comfortable to ask questions for clarity, you know, something like, hey,
I'm getting I'm getting the feeling that maybe you know
dot dot dot. If you're comfortable asking somebody that, that's great.
But one of the things that I would usually tell
people is when you have a thought of you know,
(12:48):
say this person doesn't want to be around me, and
you start to feel anxious and really uncomfortable, that is
usually that anxietiety. That sort of uncomfortable feeling is an
indication that it's probably transference. Because sometimes you have a
(13:08):
feeling about somebody and it just feels true, but you
don't have the anxiety. It's sort of an acceptance of
whatever it is. It doesn't evoke such a response in you.
I think all of us have had that situation where
it's like, oh, that person doesn't want to be around me,
and it's okay, we don't have anxiety. But the times
(13:31):
that we do, that's usually because we're projecting something from
the past onto someone else.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Would you say then that if you have those feelings
and one of the things that goes through your mind
this is you know, this always happens, nobody ever wants
to those kinds of grand statements that that might be
indicative that it's transference.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, always numb statements usually are not really are not
in reality, because nothing is really always or never with
relationships and also just anticipating what someone is going to do,
making assumptions, those kinds of things are usually rooted in transparence.
(14:14):
It's just based on you know, this is how it
always works out. This person says they're going to do
something and they're never going to follow through. You know,
that's usually based in in uh, in past patterns. That's
strands points.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
So if I'm getting you right, what I'm what I
If I were to, you know, sort of summarize what
we've kind of talked about here, it would be that
we are healing all the time, and a lot of
that healing happens through the relationships we have with other people,
and in doing that, these kinds of issues are going
(14:51):
to come up because that is what points us to
what needs to be worked on and processed through. Is
that mm hmm? Is that clear? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I think it's great summary, and I think it's it's
it's just so helpful too to seek clarity without attachment
or emotion, to sort of seek clarity. Are you feeling
this way? I'm thinking this. I wonder if I'm right
about it, and being able to have an open discussion
about those things as opposed to, you know, having this
(15:25):
emotionally charged response and making assumptions that follow from that
never talking about it, but behaving in a way that's
that might be kind of caustic to somebody else or
overly pleasing, you know, all of these different ways that
we cope with these stories in our mind that both
push people away or you know, make us withhold from relationships.
(15:51):
When we when we just sort of have frank conversations,
exploratory conversations with people, a lot of wonderful things can
come to light. A lot of clarity. Oh so that
at all? Oh, I you know, you can kind of
see where you were making an inference as opposed to,
you know, really seeing what the truth is.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
So don't go at it with you know, that feeling
you know, unloved or uncared for or or you know,
saying you always you know you don't love me or
you but more questions, this is what I'm getting from you?
Is this true? And just being able to get clarification
and assess from a non emotional tie, yeah, just from.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
A curiosity place. And again it's it's it's like that
work of therapy is so much internal work. It's the
work of self appreciation, self esteem, self love, the working
toward no longer depending on other people to treat you
in a certain way in order for us to feel fine,
(16:57):
to feel we feel a hole in ourselves and then
you know, people can think all sorts of things about us,
but it doesn't shake you know, we certainly will have
a response to that. That's human, but it doesn't shake
our core about ourselves.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Right, Okay, we just need to take a little break, amy,
but we'll be right back. Folks.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Tana yup, qui ge euons queen snah Hi, everybody, My
name is Quigate Eywon's I'm a member of the Squamish
Nation and the Yaglanis Klan of the Hyda Nation. You're
listening to co Op Radio CFRO O one hundred point
five FM. We live, work play and broadcast from the
traditional ancestral and unseeded territories of the Muskiam, Squamish and
(17:41):
Slave with Tooth nations.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
cfr OH one hundred point five f M. I'm Brennandine
Fox speaking with Amy Avlon about transference. Welcome back, Amy.
So we had that was a great conversation we've just
had about transference. But I want to sort of dive
into it a little bit more. I think, you know,
(18:03):
one of the questions I had from people was, am I,
how do I know I'm experiencing transference? And I think
you know, we answered that in that We we do
that all the time in all our relationships. And even
when you think you got it down pat and you've
figured it all out, You've probably run up against somebody
who will bring up another issue. And it's because it
is a part of our healing process. So so given
(18:27):
that we know that everybody is going to experience transference
when they go into say, therapy, or into a relationship.
What are the different kinds of transference? Like somebody asked
about attachment transference, and of course there's certainly the romantic,
erotic kinds of transference. But let's talk a little bit
(18:47):
about what kinds of transference clients might experience.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Well, certainly the you know the two that you mentioned transference.
It just comes in all different shape aids.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It can be financial transference. You know, you might think
someone's really really wealthy when they're not, or really really
poor when they're not, right, based on how you grew
up and what people how people showed or didn't show
their wealth. Right, It could be erotic transference, it could
be attachment. And I think as far as I'm concerned,
(19:23):
it doesn't really matter what it is. It's it's still
the client is having or the person is having their
own experience of another without and making assumptions about someone
or responding without getting clarity on the other person's situation
or intent. And that is what can harm a relationship,
(19:45):
whether it's a you know, a romantic relationship, a professional relationship.
You know, I'm sure every listener has been in the
situation where someone has made an assumption about them without
even asking a question, and that person has responded to
them in a negative way, and it was totally unnecessary
(20:07):
if that person had just asked a clarifying question.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
And is that transference that people are doing that?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, they're projecting an assumption onto somebody. They're believing it's
true whatever they're telling themselves, and then they're responding out
of that assumption, and it's it can be damaging because
the other person is feeling like, I didn't I didn't
think what you're thinking. I'm thinking I didn't do what
you're thinking. I'm doing right, And you know, when someone's
(20:38):
really deep in their subconscious transference, they're just convinced that
they are seeing this person clearly, and that's when there's
a relationship breakdown because the other person is feeling completely
unseen and accused of things they haven't done or you know,
and and that's when you know, relationships really suffer.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
So this is kind of an aside, but it's not
what you're what you're talking about then makes sense about
why a therapist should not make personal disclosures to a
large degree in that healing relationship and and why a
client should not want their therapist to be their friend,
(21:22):
because once you do that, then the therapist can't know
where where something's transference, where it's something to do with them.
I mean, then then then it all gets murky, right,
like do you know what I mean? Like if the
if the therapist isn't disclosing personal information and isn't putting
that out there, then what is coming from the client
(21:44):
really is can be said to be mostly from them?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Well? Absolutely, Yeah, And also because you want the therapy
to be about the client and not therapist. Yeah, there's
really no reason for this therapist to make any personal
disclosures because then it just you know, just gradually over time,
it's a great distraction for the client to not face
(22:10):
some of the things that they don't really want to
look at, which of course that's a human thing. We
don't always want to look at our shadow side or
the thing's getting in our way. But but yeah, there's
no there's no reason to have any sort of friendship
with your therapist, any chumminess that's that's not going to
(22:30):
help you meet your goals in therapy as as quickly
as just a therapist who really is focused on what
your patterns are, what what's coming up for you, what's
getting in your way, and looking on the client finding
a way out of those patterns, out of their grip.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
There also would mean that if the therapist is not
disclosing their personal stuff, so you're not really you're not
reacting to that in your therapy or trying to, you know,
take care of your therapist in that way. But then
at the same time with counter transference, isn't happening in
the same way for the therapist because of course transference
(23:13):
and counter transferent goes hand in hand, and so once
you once you take a relationship over that professional healing relationship,
you start dealing with really murky transference and counter transference
stuff I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Right, And I mean a lot of the training that
we go through as therapists is to elicit our own
transference and so that we will be prepared for what
counter transference might come up in our work, and we
do that in supervision. So you would never process your
countertransference with a client, and usually you'll see that that's
(23:50):
a boundary violation. If you have a therapist who's really
talking about their counter transference towards you. I would I
would go see another therapist because there's no reason for
them to be talking about their contra transference with you. Yeah,
I mean they might be able to say I imagine
that other people might respond to you in this way,
But for a therapist to sort of get in there
(24:12):
and say, personally, you remind me of my first husband
and I'm having a reaction to that, that's not appropriate
in therapy.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
No, it's not, absolutely not. So let's talk about let's
just go to romantic transference or erotic transference. I kind
of see them as two different things, but other people
might not. What is that SETH say, What might the
client be experiencing in that.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Well?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I mean, I think it's going to depend on how
the relationship unfolds and therapy. Romantic transference can obviously happen
to any of us when we have someone who is
just regarding us in a positive way, which often happens
when you're in a good therapeutic relationship. Your therapist is
in your corner and really is wanting to support you
(25:07):
in meeting whatever goals you've outlined that you want to
meet in therapy. Through therapy and having someone in your
corner like that. Maybe you know, for some people, that's
the first time it's ever happened to them in their
lives and is just really wanting them to succeed and
with no benefit for themselves beyond you know, just the fee, right.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
So they can start to you know, have feelings of
romance or love, like even erotic you know, sexual nature
because it's like, wow, this person really cares about me,
really wants me to succeed, and you know, we're all human,
and sometimes that can elicit feelings of like, wow, I
(25:56):
wish I could see this person outside of therapy. I
wish they would be my friend, I wish they would
be my lover, because this is what I'm looking for
in a relationship, right, because I have it here, why
not just you know, why can't I just move forward
with this person the And that's where the transference comes
into play, because it isn't it isn't unique to that person.
(26:20):
It's that the client is receptive to someone you know,
helping them with their goals number one, and they're just
witnessing someone who you know is ready to help, so
they can mimic that. They can sort of look for
that in other relationships outside of the therapy, but it's
(26:42):
not appropriate for it to happen with the therapist.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
So one of the things I think that does happen
for clients, it's certainly a percentage of them, is that,
you know, wanting those personal details, wanting their therapists to
disclose personal stuff. Can I'll allow them to feel safe
in a way they can't when they don't know who
that person is. And so if you've come through a
(27:07):
childhood where you haven't had anybody you can trust, not
knowing who that person is can leave you feeling unsafe
and of course not having any tools to know how
to deal with being unsafe. So if you're one of
those people that has never felt safe in a close relationship,
(27:31):
how might you bridge wanting to know stuff like where
as a therapist, how would you advise a client to
go back to their therapist and talk to them about
needing personal information because it will make them feel safer.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I think that's such an important issue because it makes
a lot of sense what you're saying, And so a
client who would feel that way, like wanting to know
that personal information in order to feel safe, that makes
so much sense. It's just that if the therapist indulges
that need, it indulges the pattern that says I need
(28:13):
to know what to expect of other people in order
to keep myself safe, because I can't keep myself safe
on my own. Because they're conditioned to like, let me
know this about you and then make all sorts of
inferences about that information to judge whether or not or
how to behave how to alter their behavior to please
(28:37):
that person, right, I mean, that's one of the underlying
motivations is let me learn this stuff about you so
I can get a good read on you, and I
can change and tailor my behavior so that you won't
harm me.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
And of course, then you're never living your own life.
You're just living where you're sort of a monkey performing
for other people, which is part of why people are
so feeling disconnected, unseen and depressed or anxious.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
And so.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
When the therapist holds the boundary and says, you know what,
this is about your therapy, This isn't about me and
my personal details, they're also modeling that you can have
boundaries too, to their client, like, this is what it
looks like to say no and have that enough. And
(29:28):
because for a lot of people who feel unsafe their
boundaries have been violated. They haven't been able to say
no because it was too dangerous for them, And so
you're getting the therapists who is showing them how to
say no in a kind way and to stay firm
with that boundary. And that's how the client kind of
(29:49):
can learn oh, that's what it looks like, boundaried person.
So that not everybody has access to all of your
personal information too, because a lot of the people who
feel like they have to know a lot about their
therapists also feel like other people are entitled to their
personally for me right right exactly?
Speaker 1 (30:09):
So how would you advise that client to go back
to the therapist and try and talk about.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
That about wanting to know personal people? Yeah, yeah, I
mean I think it's okay to say I'm having a
feeling of like, I feel unsafe not knowing who you are,
not knowing about your you know, personal life, and the
therapists can let them know. I mean through you would
(30:38):
want your therapist to ask you questions like when did
you do you remember when this first started, when you
first started feeling this way? What would happen if you
did know these things. For example, if you knew X,
Y and Z, then what would happen? So it's sort
of like and then what, and then what and then
what this series of questions like why do you need
to know this? And then the client can kind of
(31:00):
begin to see it isn't that I need to know
if you're married, or it's it's I need to know
that I am safe, like you were saying. And that's
where the conversation begins, where it's like, how do we
learn to become safe in an unsafe world with people?
Because that's really the work, because otherwise you're just going
(31:20):
to be at the mercy of whoever you're interacting with
all day, every day. So the client has to has
to learn to have their own boundaries, learn to ask
appropriate questions of other people, learn to tolerate being told no,
you know, and and that way they can they can
start to know like who they are as a person
(31:43):
outside of those patterns of anticipating what other people might need.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
First, Yeah, it's a very good answer, thank you. That
makes hard work.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
It's hard work because especially a lot of a lot
of us in Western society are raised to please people
in authority. Yes we are and subjugate our own needs
in order to survive and please those people, and we
(32:18):
think that's normal, and we never learn how to become
our own authority.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And that's a very sad fact. It really is. I
you know, you know, to imagine that somebody, it's not me.
God knows if you know me. I'm a very opinionated,
loud mouth, you know, person that stands up so but
it makes me feel sad. I certainly know what it
(32:46):
is like to be that person, because that was me
at one point, and it would be very sad in
my mind if people went through their whole lives not
experiencing being able to own their own lives and own
their own thoughts and own their own onions and stand
up for them. Can transference damage a relationship, a therapeutic relationship,
(33:09):
I think.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
If it's never fully explored and the client is just
left to to make assumptions about the therapists and constantly
reacting to those assumptions, you know, it can it can
damage it if a client continually believes the therapist really
has no interest in their well being, and they really
(33:35):
believe that and they have no trust in the therapist,
you know, really wanting to support them achieving their goals.
I mean, I don't know how you can really get anywhere,
you know.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
It would be hard. I'm just wondering whether or not,
as you say that, whether or not a client could
you know, who's not ready to talk to the therapist
about it at some point if they recognize that there's transference,
if there's some way that they could process that on
their own. But we can talk about that in a bit.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
When you are, Can I just say one thing, Oh, yes,
I think it's so important to I think it's really
important for people to feel safe in terms of responsibility.
So taking responsibility is one of the greatest things that
can happen to a person in their life. It's done
(34:24):
in a way where they aren't feeling blamed, but they're
feeling empowered through responsibility. So when I when I feel
confident enough that I can take responsibility for oh, I
made an assumption about you and it was incorrect, and
let me find out what is actually true for you. Right,
I'm taking responsibility that you know I made this false assumption,
(34:49):
but it doesn't it's like I made an error. It
doesn't mean that I am an error. And I think
that's the big shift that clients can really make is like,
it's okay to be wrong about about other people, but
if you continue to not take responsibility for telling yourself
a story about someone without getting clarity, and then you know,
(35:12):
you're not able to admit that, you know, oh, I
was telling myself a story and you were bearing the
brunt of that story. I think that's what becomes damaging.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, yeah, because if you never sort of work it through,
then you're making decisions based on something that is reinforcing
something in your life that maybe isn't real.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yeah. And there's that difference between because some people will say, well,
then now you're saying it was all my fault. It's
like there's a difference between taking responsibility for thinking something
that needs to be you know, amended, and something where
it's like, oh, it's all my fault, right, it's just
that you were incorrect about something and being incorrect as
(35:57):
a part of life, and it's okay.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
God, it is a part of life. Let me confirm
that I make mistakes so momentized.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, but I think a lot of us are grown
up where we're raised to believe we can't make any mistakes.
And if it's my fault. That means like it's the
end of the world. And so so that's also can
happen in therapy, where it's like mistakes are fine. All
we have to do is have a conversation about it
and and you know.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Absolutely good. And it's really freeing and empowering to recognize
you're somebody who can make a mistake. Yes, loved, it's
just like, oh my god, I am free.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Speaking of Romantic and Eurotic transfer. When when you can
you know state freely that you've made a mistake and
that you were wrong about something and you still have
this wonderful positive regard coming from someone else, that also
can begin to feel like, wow, I've never experienced this before.
This is a you know, and so it's it's pretty
(37:03):
human for those feelings to come up like wow, gosh,
this person is wonderful. I'd love to get to know
them better. And that's why it's so important for the
therapist to hold like we're doing the work of therapy
here and help you to have to use these new
skills in your relationships outside of the work here. But
this is therapy. This isn't this isn't you know, this
(37:27):
isn't work. So that you can have a relationship with
your therapist. That would be the therapist exploiting all of that
all of that work that they're doing with the client.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
I want to talk about that a whole lot more,
but we need to take a little break and we'll
be right.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
Blackfast CFROO has the most reggae and Caribbean music of
any station in the Vancouver area. Start your week off
with some reggae. All of these on Tuesdays from ten
thirty am to noon with a level of vibes. Roots
Reggae is on Fridays from midnight to seven am. The
Reggae Show from six to eight thirty pm every Saturday,
followed by Caribbean Sounds from a thirty to eleven pm.
(38:01):
On the first and second Saturday of every month. It's
a Reggae extended Mix from eleven pm to seven am,
and then super Mix on the third, fourth and fifth Saturday.
On CFRO one hundred point five FM, Vancouver Cooperative Radio.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
You're listening to me threading Madness on Vancouver cop Radio
CFR oh one hundred point five FM. I'm ren named Fox,
continuing on a conversation with Amy Avalon about transference. Amy
you are a retired therapist. You trained as a therapist,
and in that training, at what point were you trained
about transference and what were you told about it?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
You know, it started on the very first day of training.
Even in an orientation we were we were transference was
just right there for all of us to talk about
because it happens all the time. And in my orientation,
when we were in a big group and those group
(39:01):
dynamics were starting to come into play, that was how
we were getting to know ourselves as therapists and where
we were starting to highlight what we had to watch
out for in our own counter transference is like, what
were we assuming that other people were thinking about us?
What were we assuming our professors were thinking about us? So, yeah,
(39:21):
it starts from day one, at least in my training.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
So were you told that tom transference is real and
something that should be acted on? Or what? How was
transference described to you?
Speaker 2 (39:36):
So transference was described to me as just like all
of these projections that we have that we put on
people that are rooted in past relationships that may or
may not have anything to do with you know. I mean,
it's like if you're meeting someone for the very first time,
Like I was with my professors or fellow students on
that day, and I'm making assumptions based on you know,
(39:58):
my own lens from where I grew up and who
I grew up with. You know, that's absolutely transference. I
know nothing about these people.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Right, Okay, that makes sense?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yeah, yeah, And you realize like, oh my gosh, I
was really wrong about that person, and you start to
see because it's very convincing inside. It's like, oh, we
make judgments about people all the times we go through
the world, and a lot of them are based on archetypes.
So that person was probably a geek, or that person
was probably a cheerleader, or that person, you know, people
(40:29):
that they really look They make all these assumptions and
then you find out that they weren't true. They were
you know, what you perceived to be a geek, to
be what you perceive to be, a bully, you know,
all those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
So a client, I mean, one of the questions that
came was, how do I tell whether I'm really in
love with my therapist or is this transference? How do
I how do I know what's real? Because transference feels real.
It's not like you know there's some way of you know,
(41:04):
reality check that happens. It's just, you know, it's a
real feeling that you're having. How do you know that
it's really love or really transference?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
So the therapist in the therapeutic relationship, when you have
someone who's listening to you and who's supporting your goals,
and you start to feel like you're in love with
that person, Usually the phenomenon that can be really helpful
in therapy is because this therapist is mirroring you, is
(41:38):
reflecting back to you some of the things that you're
thinking about, and is often reflecting back to you some
of the very greatest qualities that you possess that maybe
have remained hidden from you or that you don't get
a lot of accolades for in your outside life. The
client is actually falling in love with themselves, but they're
(42:00):
thinking that it's the therapist, But it's the therapist is
really mirroring back. When it's effective therapy, the therapist is
mirroring back what's happening for this client. And sometimes in
therapy is the first time in a person's life where
(42:21):
they were focused upon lovingly, lovingly, compassionately, like it may
not have ever happened to them before where someone was
solely focused on what they wanted. I mean, most of
us grow up even when our parents adore us or
our siblings adore us in the way that they want to, well,
we often feel or hear you don't want that, you
(42:47):
want this, or we're told that we're selfish for the
things that we want, which you know, it's kind of
funny because you're being selfish because you're not doing what
I want you to do right right, So you know,
it's a very it can be just a really different
experience to be listened to, to be really seen, to have
someone your therapist remember what you talked about from week
(43:11):
to week, and so you know, it may have the
client might feel like they're falling in love with somebody,
but really it's just the process is something that they
haven't experienced before, and it's an enjoyable process. And that
doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, it's still an unequal
(43:36):
relationship because everything has been about the client and very
very little about the therapist. So you know, in a
love relationship, a healthy love relationship, it's a lot of
give and take. So the therapeutic relationship where you're feeling
like you're falling in love. Well, the whole thing has
been about the client.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
And their goals, or it should be.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
It should be. Yeah, So you know that wouldn't transfer
into a healthy love relationship, you know, to have everything
just about about you know, the client, right. I think
that's that's kind of what we all wanted when we
were infants, is we just wanted to be you know,
(44:17):
cared for and the only thing that was, you know,
like the center of someone's life.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
But then we grow up and we have relationships where
other people have needs, we have needs, and there should
be a trade off, but usually there's an imbalance. But
in therapy it's definitely all about the client's needs or
it should be.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Y, it should be. So just a little bit of clarification.
Is love transference the same as sexual transference? And I
know the two kind of go hand in hand, and
one could infer that they go that it's the same thing,
but I'm not exactly sure that it is.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yeah, definitely, because obviously you can feel a lot of
love for someone and have no desire, no sexual desire
for them, and vice versa, have a lot of sexual
design for someone and have very little love. I mean,
we've certainly seen relationships like that, but I think I
think what's also just really important to highlight is that
(45:21):
the relationship between the therapists and the client is a
professional one, and and love is such a I mean, gosh,
we could have like a whole series of shows our
lives on what that means and what that is. But
in terms of what I think you mean by by
love here is sort of like you're the person for me,
(45:43):
maybe we're soulmates, maybe we're meant to be together in
a in a in a more traditional way on the outside,
not in a professional way, and like a you know,
a more committed relationship, and that that's just not appropriate
for the therapeutic reallyationship.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I think one of the things that I hear a
lot in terms of supporting survivors of therapy abuse and exploitation,
which I do when I'm not on the radio, is
often they're talking and they say things like I had
no sexual attraction to this person at all. He was
like a grandpa, and then suddenly I was sexually attracted.
(46:23):
I think that kind of thing is probably one of
those red flags that this is transference.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Yes, oh, absolutely, absolutely Okay, there's transference there. And again,
like we've said, transference is something that's happening to all
of us all the time, right, go through life. However,
I guess the example that I'd use here is say
you go to a film, You go to the cinema,
(46:50):
and you have a whole range of emotions in response
to what you're seeing on the screen. Maybe try, maybe
you laugh, maybe you feel like so, you know, scared,
maybe you feel such relief. Right, and the film is
written and filmed and all of the music and everything,
(47:11):
all the lighting is there to elicit those responses in
the audience, right, it's manufactured that way.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Yep, it is actually having worked on film back and
absolutely agree, right, and.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
They and they do a lot of research on this
and they kind of what works, and many people will
report having the same responses, the same people who saw
the same film. And abusive therapists who elicit these responses
are also using techniques to elicit responses in people where
(47:42):
they weren't there before. You weren't having those feelings till
you went into the cinema and you witnessed all these
things on the screen, but they aren't real. You leave
the cinema and you leave the movie behind. The problem
is when you have an abusive therapist who is using
tactics that elicit these emotions inside of the client through
(48:03):
manipulation and exploitation of all their knowledge about the dreams
and the fantasies and the history of this client that
they've had, you know, they've had access to the client
can very easily mistake that is like, oh, wow, this person,
you know, this person is feeling something that is quote real,
but really it's it's manipulation, just like a movie.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
So let's talk about that because one of the things
that we often hear people being told is that if
you have sexual transference or love transference with your therapist,
the thing that you should do is go and talk
to them and that they will help you. That's mostly
what clients are told. They're not told anything more else.
They're just told, go and talk to your therapist. And
(48:50):
of course that presumes that your therapist is a good therapist,
an ethical therapist that is in fact going to use
their training and skill to help you with that transference.
What we see in the work that we do around
survivors of therapy abuse and exploitation is how bad therapist,
an abusive therapist will misuse that transference. So can we
(49:13):
talk a little bit about what clients should expect to
happen if they go in and talk to their therapist
about say, sexual transference.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Well, I mean, just before we even get into that,
it's just so important for all clients to know that
the therapeutic relationship is no place for sex or romantic touching,
or financial help to the therapist or bartering any of
those things. That's just not It's kind of like you're
(49:51):
that just that relationship is a professional one, and that's
that's you know, the standards are that no relationships of
that kind are to happen in that professional relationship, right.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
And that's true even if it's a destiny.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Or age or a.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Past life for any of the things that we hear about. Okay,
in fact, if.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Hearing those things destiny, soulmate, you can bet that those
are all related to those manipulative tactics.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Yes, and you should immediately get up out of your
chair and leave absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
And you know, the therapist may never have said those things.
A client might be feeling them and he's just realized
that we've all grown up in a society where we've
been hearing those things movies and TV and books and everything,
so that you know, everything is so romanticized, and I
think it's just normal human nature for us to look
(50:46):
for that, you know, because it feels good. But in
terms of talking to your therapist, because it's like, if
it's distracting you and it's really getting in the way
of you working on anything else, you can say, you know,
I'm Certainly clients are encouraged to say I'm distracted because
I have these feelings for you, and a good therapist
(51:07):
will know that that does happen. And again it's because
of that mirroring. So the client is actually kind of
falling in love with themselves, right, and all of the
qualities that the therapist is mirroring back, right, But the therapist
will separate out those feelings from you know them as
(51:29):
as a person, depersonalize the feelings that the client is
bringing in transparence and say, well, of course you would
feel that way, because it's likely that you haven't been
in a situation before where you were paid so much attention,
your feelings were honored, your very being was honored, and
so you know, yeah, it's normal for you to feel like, oh,
(51:50):
maybe this is you know, what I've been looking for
my whole life. Like maybe a client kind of feels
that way, and then immediately the boundary comes, it says,
and it's it's normal to have those feelings. And in
this professional relationship, we're working on you being able to
care enough about yourself that you will not settle for
any less in your relationships outside of our work together.
(52:13):
So those old patterns that we're defeating you or keeping
you anxious, keeping you depressed, you know, we're going to
leave those patterns behind. And you know, the client's going
to learn new ways of being in the world and
being in relationship with other people, so that this isn't
the only place where they're finding someone who is warm
(52:35):
to them, someone who you know, sees them properly, someone
who listens to them. Does that make any sense?
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Yeah, So then how would the therapist begin that process
of working with that stuff?
Speaker 2 (52:47):
I think it's I mean, I think it's going to
depend on how the how the therapist is practicing, you know,
at what stage the relationship is like. But for example,
if a client came to me and said, you know,
I'm having a hard time, you know, focusing on these
goals because I'm having, you know, these feelings for you,
and I sort of wish that we could be friends.
I wish we could meet for coffee. And I would say,
(53:10):
you know, those those things happen in therapy, and I
would explain to them what transference is, just like we've
been talking about today. And generally, if you're feeling distracted
by something like that, it might be because there's something
else that you don't want to look at right as
much fun to look at, and I wonder what that
(53:31):
could be. And and you know, sometimes we just want
to deal with like sort of the good things, but
you have to look at some of the painful things,
and and so you know, it also might be like
you're feeling this way towards me, right, You're feeling these
these warm feelings towards me, And in the hopes of
(53:54):
those warm feelings being real, then maybe I won't disappoint
you right by pushing you out of your comfort zone,
by do things that are hard, asking you to do
things that you know, like, for example, owning that you've
made an assumption about someone in your life and going
to them and asking them to clarify, or going and
(54:16):
making an apology, or setting a boundary with someone who
is not easy to say no to, you know, or
setting a boundary with an addiction, you know. So sometimes
the transference can be warm that way, so that it's like,
if I like you enough, will you not make me
do these things that I don't want. But again, like
(54:37):
one of the things that we talk about here on
your show is also just like what a therapist should
not say, and therapists should not and you know you've
heard me say this before. All feelings are normal, acting
on them is not so so just because a therapist
normalizes how you feel towards them in terms of yes,
(54:58):
erotic sexual transfer can happen, that's very normal, But that
doesn't mean it's normal for the therapist to then start
eliciting more of those feelings from you and acting on
those feelings in terms of you know, meeting for coffee,
having a sexual relationship, touching, you know, having you start
(55:19):
paying for their you know, any debts that they have,
doing cleaning in their house, babysitting their children, you know,
any any of those kinds of things, borrowing money, buying
real estate, all of these things that start to get
clouded in marquee, you know, the therapist should never start
(55:40):
moving you towards acting on any of those feelings.
Speaker 1 (55:45):
And also one of the other things is I would assume,
I believe, is that a therapist should not say something
like well, I kind of feel like that too, but
we're in a their relationship, so we can't do anything
about that now, but we could after the healing relationship
(56:05):
is over, because that that stops a lot of healing.
I would imagine if you're not using the transference as
a healing tool, but using it as something is ultimately
an abusive tool that is impacting on your healing as well.
Speaker 2 (56:23):
Right, So that example that you you just that you
just used, that's exactly the kind of manipulative, exploitative tactic
that we were kind of talking about a few minutes ago.
And it's very flood all, isn't it. You know, It's like,
you know, it seems like just a validating comment, but
it's really not. And one of the ways that a
client can kind of figure this out, it's hard when
(56:45):
you're in it. That's why it's helpful to you know,
have friends to talk to. Is when you talk about
transference with your therapist, assuming that you're in a healthy relationship,
you should come away from that conversation about transference with
the transference having less charge. When you find that it
(57:09):
has more charge, then that's not helpful territory. So, for example,
if the therapist responded the way that you just said, oh,
you know, I'm glad you brought that up, because actually
I feel that way too. But this is but right,
but is always a touchy yes, But we can't do
that here because and you know, in another world, you know,
(57:33):
if we had met before this, if we have you know,
so you the client will likely come away even more desirous,
with more and less settled, more distracted. And now now
they're really that therapist is really committing a violation and
(57:54):
being exploitive, manipulative. You know, they're not doing something that's
all helpful for the client, because there's nothing helpful in
that statement.
Speaker 1 (58:07):
I mean, we have to stop. I'm sorry, Oh I
never want to stop talking with you.
Speaker 2 (58:12):
One thing, if I can just add one thing, you sure,
even when you have those feelings, the therapist is always
the one you're going to their office. They're deciding when
it starts and stops. I mean it's just it's not
a relationship between equals at all.
Speaker 1 (58:26):
No, it's not, and it never will be in my opinion,
even even after the fact, it can never It can
never be because it was based on that imbalance of power.
Thank you, Amy for coming and chatting with me about this.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. It's
going to be a valuable podcast and radio program for
(58:48):
people to hear because too often as clients we're left
in the dark about what is transference and how to
work with yet, So thank you.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
Thank you. Yeah, it is such a thanks.
Speaker 1 (59:02):
It's complicated, but it's not at the same time, it's
just really simple. You know you're having whatever you're having
a feeling about your therapist, it's probably about you. That's
about as simple as it gets. So okay, thank you,
and we'll be right back, folks, and that's our show.
My thanks to Amy Avalon for coming and chatting with
me about transference, and to Sharry Alrich for the gift
(59:24):
of her music, and to you our listeners for joining
us today. Stay safe out there. You've just listened to
Rethreading Madness, where we dare to change how we think
about mental health. We air live on Vancouver co Op
Radio CFRI one hundred point five FM every Tuesday at
five pm, or online at co opradio dot org. If
you have questions or feedback about this program, or want
(59:47):
to share your story, or have something to say to us,
we want to hear from you. You can reach us
by email, rethreading madness at co opradio dot org. This
is Berndine Fox. We'll be back next week. Until then,
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