June 11, 2025 • 60 mins
Off the Map with writers Angela J. Gray, Venge Dixon, Mary O’Toole with music by Ren
Trigger Warning: Song by Ren Gill includes foul language
May 1st 2025 saw the release of Off the Map an anthology of prose and poetry that has to do with mental health. ReThreading Madness had privilege of speaking to 3 of the writers included in this publication. Venge Dixon is a nonbinary lesbian who writes, creates art (and comic books) and make music. She wraps a heart-warming story about a very difficult time in her life around a cat named Linus who showed up and put a wrench in her plan’s to die. Angela J. Gray is an emerging black writer who writes about the “impact of colonization on children of African/Caribbean Diaspora who were adopted into white homes” in what, in her case, looks just like 60s Scoop. Mary Phyllis O’Toole says “ she writes, not only for emotional catharsis, but to shine a light on schizophrenia.” All of them share a portion of their writing with us during this hour. In addition, we have included a song entitled “Hi Ren” by Ren Gill, a musician from the UK who used music to have a conversation with himself about his current state of mental health and in, so doing, gives us an incredible inside view of what his world is like while leaving us all inspired and hopeful.
Music by Shari Ulrich & Ren Gill
Trigger Warning: Song by Ren Gill includes foul language
May 1st 2025 saw the release of Off the Map an anthology of prose and poetry that has to do with mental health. ReThreading Madness had privilege of speaking to 3 of the writers included in this publication. Venge Dixon is a nonbinary lesbian who writes, creates art (and comic books) and make music. She wraps a heart-warming story about a very difficult time in her life around a cat named Linus who showed up and put a wrench in her plan’s to die. Angela J. Gray is an emerging black writer who writes about the “impact of colonization on children of African/Caribbean Diaspora who were adopted into white homes” in what, in her case, looks just like 60s Scoop. Mary Phyllis O’Toole says “ she writes, not only for emotional catharsis, but to shine a light on schizophrenia.” All of them share a portion of their writing with us during this hour. In addition, we have included a song entitled “Hi Ren” by Ren Gill, a musician from the UK who used music to have a conversation with himself about his current state of mental health and in, so doing, gives us an incredible inside view of what his world is like while leaving us all inspired and hopeful.
Music by Shari Ulrich & Ren Gill
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Vancouver co Op Radio cfr OH one
hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Musquam and Slighway Tooth
nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernadine Fox, and
this is this show that dares to change how we
think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Ween have ever been further.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
No?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
What the hell I'm gonna do when I can't see
a fine way under over?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver cup Radio cfr
OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox, and
I am speaking with various writers from a new book
that's been available since the beginning of May through Belle Press.
A new anthology out from Vancouver. It's called Off the
Map and it is featuring Vancouver writers with lived experience
(01:07):
of mental health issues, which is right up our alley
here at Rethreading madnesson. So I have the pleasure of
talking to several of the writers from that book and
find out what they wrote about, why they wrote about it,
and what they're hoping happens with this book. So the
first person I get to talk to is Benge Dixon. Benge,
(01:27):
Did I say your name right?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
You you know, we're Facebook friends, so I see your
name all the time. It never occurred to me that
I might not know how to say your name, but
once I said it, it didn't sound like it was
the right name. But Benge is the right name. So
you're one of the writers in this anthology. What inspired
you to write for this book?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Well, I took part in a workshop that was organized
by Sema Shaw and run by Betsy Woreland, and there
were a lot of writers from around Vancouver with experience
of madness, and we were all just workshopping ideas and
talking about ideas. I've been working on a comic book
(02:12):
for some time and it was mainly for that that
I was there. But eventually we became we came to
a place where we decided to write actually stories for
an anthology, and this one came to me.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
It's a lovely story. Do you want to tell people
what it's about.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
The story is about my rush to the other side
of the country to try and get away from myself,
and my meeting with a cat who became a really
important part of my life and kept me alive during
that time period that I was there, which is about
seven years seven.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Did you say seventeen years or seven or seven seven years? Yeah,
it would be a very old pat if it was
seventeen years. Well, it's a very old cat, although there
are cats that live that old. I think one of
the things that people underestimate is just how much we
might stay alive for a being that's in our life,
(03:15):
whether it's a child or another person who's dependent on us,
or an animal, and how much impact that can have
on our lives. When you think about the impact Linus
had other than staying alive, what else did he bring
to your life?
Speaker 4 (03:36):
He gave me a sense of just being. He was
an incredibly patient person, he would and a great hunter,
and he showed me a lot of what was around me.
Because I was living in the country, and because I
had been so inside of myself, he helped me step
(03:56):
outside of that and look around because he was doing
and I was looking at him, and then I looked for.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
You. You were going to read a piece of your
writing that that is in this book. Are you able
to do that now?
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Yes? I'll just read the first part of the story. Okay, okay,
this is the story is called Linus traveling east driving
an old souped up pickup named Amadeas. I hadn't driven
for ten years, nor had I driven anything bigger than
a sedan. A blind run from defeat, shame, agony, east
(04:41):
east and further east because east is not West. Defeat,
shame and agony arrived. A week or so after I
did like big where Bob Height said, wherever you go,
where you are. I bought a water one hundred year old,
falling down house in Murphy Cove, a small community on
(05:04):
the eastern Shore. I had three neighbors eat your half
acre or more apart for me and from one another.
I knew none of them. This complimented my uncertainty. I
settled in, howling into the beauty of silence, waiting for
the right moment to end my life quietly, far away
(05:26):
from family, not wanting to bequeath them the funeral arrangement.
I was a brokenness, squattered over by egoism and self doubt.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yes, it's a beautiful passage. I love that line, howling
into the beauty of silence, and it evokes so much
in me that I'm not even sure I could tell
you what it evokes. I just know it evokes in
me a sense of being in appreciation of the space
(05:59):
it creates. I don't know how to say that any differently,
but he creates a space that I really quite appreciate.
Your writing is very well done, and the relationship between
you and Linus are it becomes very very clear, And
you're right. Animals, you know, come into our lives and
they they change things if we allow them to change things.
(06:21):
And it's very clear. How did Linus come to live
with you?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
He had well, a friend of a friend told her
about him, and then I was sort of pressured into
taking him because they kept giving notices about him being
on death row. And his person was another lesbian I'm
a little lesbian. And this person was an older woman
who suffered from dementia and she could no longer take
(06:48):
care of her cat, so she was in the hospital
and Linus was alone, and eventually he just he came
to me against my will, really, because I really didn't
think I could take care of him. I didn't think
I was apt to taking care of him. But you know,
the death row thing had.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Me, Yes, you were contemplating suicide I was.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
I was.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
That's why I went there.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And Linus became a problem in your in your contemplation
of that suicide.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
That's right, because he was a living being who I
had accepted responsibility for. I didn't feel I could just
suddenly leave him to his own devices or to another person,
yet another person, so I stayed with him. He kept
me here.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Are you happy that you're here? Or is that a
hard question?
Speaker 4 (07:45):
That's a hard question. Depends on the days.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
On the day, Yeah, no, I get that, it's true.
It does depend on the day. Where's Linus now?
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Linus died after we came to Vancouver. It's for really
sad stories. I won't tell that kind of I'm sorry
for the story in the book, but I'd miss him
every day.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, I understand that our animals are very important to us.
Why did you want this story to go out to people?
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Well, at first I wasn't sure what to write about,
and then I thought I needed another cat. Friend of
mine had died, so I thought I would couldn't write
about him. I'd have to write back in time to
the time when you know, I had never written about Linus,
and Linus was what pulled me out of a really
(08:39):
terrible place and allowed me to see some things that
I hadn't been seeing and just take a time, take
time to sit and watch things other than myself, to
get out of my own self. So I think that's
why I decided to write, because I thought, well, that's
one of the things a lot of us struggle with,
is being inside of ourselves so deeply that difficulty getting out.
(09:04):
And animals definitely can do that for us, even if
you know they might not be our cat might be,
a bird might be you know, like a crow. Watching
the crows can do that, or just watching nature can
do that. To not be in myself, I thought that
would mix well with what's happening in the book. Although
I haven't read the other stories, and I'm really excited
(09:26):
about reading those.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
There are some really wonderful stories in this book. Yours,
in my opinion, is one of the ones that I
appreciate a lot, and I think probably because I have cats.
My cats are important. But I also had a dog
who came into my life in a kind of the
same way. I mean, I never intended to have a talk.
(09:50):
My grandchild wanted to take this dog and fix it
because it was going to die, and it was going
to die. It was it was eight years old, and
it was very second it was going to die. And
so we brought it home and fixed it up and
tried to take it back to where it belonged, and
that didn't happen, and so we ended up trying to
figure out how to find a home for it. But
as we're doing that, of course every week this dog
(10:11):
would grow like yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
And then you can't and you can't.
Speaker 6 (10:15):
It's harder and harder going, Oh it's a cute little
eight week Oh no, wait a minute, it's it's you know,
like forty pounds now and oh wait a minute, it's
ninety pounds, and you know, and it.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Absolutely loves you. I mean, it's just it just loved me,
and I I mean, it was just one of the
one of the great joys of my life, having this
dog that just about you know, did me in because
it was ninety pounds and really needed to run and
I have chronic fatigue and try to do that. And
so he did find a home. He is happily a
(10:46):
sconce in the Cootney Mountains and exactly where he needed
to be. But yeah, so I understand having animals comment
you didn't expect to have and having them just literally
change your life for the better. So thank you Ben
for coming and chatting with us about this.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Thank you very much, and we'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Folks here.
Speaker 7 (11:08):
Tani yup Qui gate euons Queen Sna Hi, everybody. My
name is quigate Ywon's I'm a member of the Squamish
Nation and the Yaglanis Klan of the Hyda Nation. You're
listening to co Op Radio CFRO one hundred point five FM.
We live, work, play and broadcast from the traditional ancestral
and unseeded territories of the Musquiam, Squamish and Sleavetooth nations.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
You're listening to Reeth Threading Madness on Vancouver co Op
Radio CFRO one hundred point five FM. I'm brought itting
Fox and today I have the pleasure speaking with Angela Gray,
who is one of the authors of a short story
in the book called Off the Map. Today we are
interviewing people who have been included in this publication, and
(11:52):
Angela is one of them, and she had a very
unique story written in a very unique style, and I'm
very glad to be able to ask her questions about it.
So welcome, Angela, thank you. Can you tell us a
little bit about who you are?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Sure? Sure? So I'm gonna be picky because I do
go by Angela J. Gray. And the reason I do
that is because there's so many of us. Oh there,
like there's just you know, there's so many of us.
So I just decided I'm just going to do in
Vancouver alone. There's like four of us. So wow, So
I just I go by Angela J. Gray. Not because
(12:29):
I'm necessarily actually attached to J because it is my
middle name is named after my adopted mother, who I
have a contentious relationship with. But that's my way reclaiming
And so I am. I am a mother, I'm a twin,
I'm a friend, and I'm a writer and I'm a creative.
(12:52):
And I come to this work from my twenties, probably sooner,
probably made my teens. I was really interested. I love
to dance. It was one of the ways to move
through some of the things that were happening to me.
And I also loved listening to music, so I started
(13:13):
playing guitar and I started writing songs for my guitar,
and then it turned into writing poetry. About pain really
and my experiences in a roundabout way around my adoption experience.
And from there I came out TOBC and started living
(13:33):
in Vancouver and had enough space for my adoptive family
to really think about writing about my experience. And so
the writing at that time was really angry. It was
angry writing necessary for my growth and development. And then
I started really researching how to be a writer, and
(13:55):
I got into Booming Ground at UBC in early two thousands.
By this point, I had a four year old five
year old son, and I decided that I needed to
focus on raising him. So I set aside writing focused
on working and raising him. And then I went back
(14:16):
to school to study addictions counseling actually, and when I
finished that program, I decided that I needed to reconcile
my own story before I went out helping other peoples
with theirs, and so I got back to writing and
finished this memoir called a Clean House.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
And is that published?
Speaker 3 (14:36):
At this point, I'm looking for a publisher. I've got,
you know, small small pieces that have been published here
and there. I've done readings publicly. I've had some really
great opportunities recently in Vancouver with my poetry and yes,
(14:58):
so I'm just looking for looking for publisher and have
actually started my next book as well.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Cool writing is such a huge thing. I know people
talk about writing a book. I did write a memoir,
and memoirs are one of the the very naive statement
coming from me, but in my opinion, very hard things
to do because if it's an issue that is, you know,
an intense issue of any kind of you really have
(15:25):
to dig down deep in terms of finding your own
honesty and being able to put it on paper. It's
not an easy thing to do at all. You do
have to own your crap basically.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So you do you do? It was interesting I had
somebody read my memoir recently and one of their comments was, oh,
do you need to put that thing in there about that?
And I said, well, yeah, I actually do. Like you can't,
you know, talk about all the things that happened to
you without having some accountability and responsibility for what those
(15:59):
things did to you. Chose to do because of those
things at that time.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, editing, people want us to edit, but when it's
your life and you want to get through your life,
editing is not the thing. Censoring, I guess is the
thing I want to say, Censoring is not the way
to do it. So tell us about this story you
put in here. It's called it is ordered.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
So it is ordered. It's in the story itself. I've
taken my adoption order, the official adoption order, and I've
cut it up, if you will, and blocked out, you know,
marked out pieces of it to clude into a story
about my adoption and that you know, this adoption happened.
(16:49):
It was a part of an adoption experiment that was
happening in the nineteen sixties seventies out of Toronto, getting
black kids out of foster care into homes and which
would be primarily white homes at the time. I suspect
it probably still is. But it's really about this experiment.
(17:11):
And you know, these projects happen. People do experiments, but
they never really look at the long term impact of them.
So I really wanted to highlight this adoption order, what
was going on in the family, the home that they've
placed me in, my twin in, and to allow the
(17:32):
reader to surmise some of the long term impacts of that.
And the best way I thought, in terms of this
piece and applying to get this piece published would be
through this story. So I'm talking a bit about the
early days and some of the things that happened in
the home. There is a trigger warning. I like to
(17:53):
warn people about that, and it's difficult to write, but
I think it's necessary to say.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Mm hmmm, yes, absolutely. I so agree that we need
to talk about what is not what we want to
kind of pretend you can close an experiment. What was
the point of the experiment.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
I think, just based on some of my own research,
the point was to I think it all My feeling
is it all comes down to money. So getting kids
out of foster care. So we you know, black kids
were deemed as as hard to adopt at that time.
(18:37):
Languaging at that time was you knew Negro children getting
that That's what the experiment was called, not the adoption
of Negro children, a community wide approach. And so it
brought in Children's Aid Society, the Catholic Children's a society,
the Jewish community in Toronto to think about innovative ways
(18:58):
to get these kids my twin and I included out
of foster care. And so I don't think they wanted
to pay for us to be there, and we were
actually taken from our mother without our consent, her consent.
She was a non landed immigrant in Toronto coming from Jamaica,
(19:18):
gave birth prematurely, didn't know she was having twins, and
essentially we were taken from that point and our names
were changed, we were put up for adoption, we were
advertised across the country in a newspaper article called Today's Child,
and were lost to her until I decided to find
(19:41):
what happened. So the memoir talks all about that. But yeah,
oh my God is right that that is the right reaction.
And so there were many children, probably over four thousand
children that were advertised in this Today's Child article, primarily
Indigenous children.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
That's where I was going to go next.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Primarily Indigenous children. And I think that the social experiment,
the adoption of Negro children, I will say that again,
was probably based on what was happening to Indigenous children
at that as well.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Well.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
The parameters are the same, exactly the same, including that
children of color were being placed in white homes. And
you have to kind of, you know, sort of wank
your head around trying to figure out what could possibly
they thought they were going to get out of this
it other than making children not indigenous or not children
(20:43):
of color of some kind.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
I just my brain just wants to shut it all out.
Quite frankly, it's just too hard to imagine even your mother,
you know, just you know, coming here and being an
immigrant and this isn't you know, this is a strange
place and birth and then giving birth to twins and
then having her children removed from her. That is traumatizing, hugely,
(21:07):
hugely traumatizing. It doesn't sound like you were removed because
she did anything wrong.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
The only thing she did wrong was to be in
the country and not landed. And that's and so I
can only imagine, you know, I've talked to people, and
I stopped talking to people because I said, oh, Angela,
there was laws against that. That couldn't have happened. And
it's just like, why could it happened? Right, Like, why
you know it did happen? Can we just say that
(21:36):
it did happen. I believe my mother. I believe my mother,
and and you know the fact that we were advertised
in a newspaper article without our original birth names says
a lot to me.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, yeah, it's true. And I don't understand how people
I mean, maybe they said this couldn't happen many many
years ago, but we understand now about sixty scoop. This
is exactly what happened. It's not a question anymore. And
of course we know that the sixty scoop is still happening.
(22:11):
You know, it's just not calling the sixty scoop anymore.
Children are still being taken at alarming rates away from
people of color, Indigenous people in particular. So what do
you hope people get from your story?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
I think first, I hope that people understand that adoption
isn't pretty right. I've heard so many times, Oh, you
must be so grateful, grateful for what, grateful for what.
So I would like there to be more of a
narrative about adoption from the adoptee perspective. I would like
(22:49):
for folks to feel that they can talk about the
traumatic things that have happened to them and that those
things aren't them I lived with. That must be something
wrong with me. I must have brought this on myself.
I didn't. I was just there. And I want and
so I want there to be more discussion about the
(23:10):
impact of trauma and how it shows up in our
day to day life. I'm not over it by any means.
I don't think I ever will be, but I live well,
you know, I'm doing the things that I enjoy, and
when it comes up for me, I have tools that
I can deal with it right for the most part,
and if I don't, then I don't get some help.
But for the most part, I'm doing okay. But it's
(23:31):
taken me a long time. And so I want there
to be some normalization around the impacts of trauma, because
you're right, the stigma, right, it's so hard to come
and talk about this, And then I'm thinking, why am
I feeling shamed about talking about something that happened to me?
It is not my shame to.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Kill And you're not defined by it, right, you know,
we are not defined by the actions of our offenders.
We just aren't. And we do need to be taking
that back and not allowing ourselves to be pathologized, to
not have that trauma pathologized, because what that does, in
my humble opinion, is it puts the blame on the victim,
(24:11):
when the responsibility to fix it on the victim and
not on the people who actually have the power to
in fact fix the fact that people are out there
hurting other people. So can you read us a bit
of your story?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I can, yes, so again trigger warning here. I began
my new life crying in a high chair in a
room unfamiliar. Clara shared a story over dinner once about
(24:46):
this time William and I howled for the first two
days we lived in our new home. She released an
odd sort of chuckle while she described this at dinner time,
when my food was not yet finished. Clara often reflected
on the past or doled out humiliations for punishments needed
(25:07):
because of something that happened in the present. After you
joined your adoptive parents, that you took a while to settle,
but eventually you and your brother began eating and sleeping well.
Other children in the family reacted well to your arrival,
played with you and sharing their toys. They were delighted
(25:29):
with their new sister and brother. My twin and I
became members of our new family on Canada Day we
were officially adopted. Three months later. We arrived that summer.
Before my memories were formed, I did not settle. The siblings,
who once eagerly shared their toys became people I secretly
(25:51):
began to dislike. When their play became nightmare worthy. My
unraveling began. I found souls in leaning my back against
the cedar tree in the backyard. Today I seek the
cedar tree in the yard where I live. When the
day is hard, I will stand beside it, allowing all
(26:11):
that pains me to be taken away, absorbed into it.
My existence in that house never made sense to me,
and over time I began to hate the word Chosen.
Trees made sense to me. They never instilled pain. There
was a sun spot near the lilac tree that bloomed
every spring beside my parents' house. I love sitting there.
(26:34):
The smell of lilacs reminds me of that insignificant place
that was safe. The sun took me in. I disappeared
into it and dwelled in the quiet stories that occupied
my mind. Sometimes, though, when I could not contain all
that I could not speak, I would kill the ants
(26:55):
that were close to me, the bugs that I could hurt.
The killings caused me anguish. I will now, whenever possible,
catch a bug, if indoors, and put it outside. My
siblings were told my absence was due to a surgery.
I needed my unbiblical cord removed because it hadn't fallen
(27:17):
off properly. What I had was a bacterial infection that
could not be identified. I was told the doctors burned
my toys and the clothing I came into the hospital with.
Because of this, Clara and a Bith had directed me
to look out the window and wave at my siblings
(27:38):
they were visiting me. I cannot remember if Susan, Michael, John,
Myra or William were there sitting on the hood of
the Chevy while I looked out of my white, disinfected
hospital room. As I looked down from the hospital window,
I could see the bay where the boat sailed. I
know Anne was there, her smile, her long hair, her
(28:01):
arms stretched higher than the others. I still recall. Anne
told me not to tell, and I didn't tell anyone
about what she made me do to her. Clara just
couldn't understand why I could not stop throwing up. I
just kept throwing up until there was no choice but
to take me to the hospital. I do not know
(28:24):
if that was the last time. I do not know
how many times it happened before. I never liked seeing
Anne in that blue velor housecoat. Whenever I did, my
body tensed, and I instantly felt bad. Whenever she pulled
me down the basement stairs while wearing that house coat,
I knew I would soon feel crummy, a shame I
(28:45):
would not understand until much later in my life. In
my grade five school year, Anne was away at college.
I was asleep in the basement and Anne's bad, that bad,
all alone, surrounded by her things. I had many night
visits and nightmares that year.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I really appreciate that you're talking about a female perpetrator.
It's something we do not talk enough about in this society,
and so thank you for that. It is something that
we need to talk about more because people are being hurt,
just in the way that you talked about this. So
the book that you're in is called Off the Map
see Vancouver Writers with Lived Experience of Mental health issues.
(29:29):
It's published by Bell. It's edited by Betsy Worland, Sema
Shaw and Kate Bird. So thank you very much, Angela
for sharing not only your story but also your writing
with us. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Thank you for having me. I appreciate that very much.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
You're welcome, and we'll be right back.
Speaker 8 (29:48):
Folks.
Speaker 9 (29:53):
Oh you hear of this.
Speaker 10 (29:55):
A lot of people call this a rock and roll.
Speaker 11 (30:00):
Swings.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
This is going be all let's see with the left hand. Yeah,
and the right hand fits in with something like this.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, here we go now.
Speaker 12 (30:12):
Yeah, it's called rock and roll and you can hear
all about it on Rock Talk Discover the hidden but
enchanting side of the music Friday mornings at nine o'clock.
Speaker 11 (30:25):
Oh, that isn't enchanting.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
Nothing is.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Go ahead, Jess, dance go crazy. You're listening to Rethreading
Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio cfr OH one hundred
point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox. Rethreading Madness is coming
up to its sixth anniversary of being on air. We
produce an air each week out of cfr OH one
(30:50):
hundred point five FM on the unseated traditional territory of
the Squamish, Muscriham and Sleighweight Tooth nations around Vancouver. Bc
RGM was one of the first radio programs to focus
on mental health issues here in Canada, in an area
swamped with statements from therapists rooted in colonial ideas about
mental health and trained in the DSM. RTM works to
(31:13):
ensure that the voices of those with lived experience have
agency and opportunity to define who they are and what
is true for them who listens to us. Beyond those
with lived experience, our audience includes their friends and partners,
along with therapists, counselors, and students of psychology. Since twenty
twenty two, all of our programs have been uploaded to
(31:35):
the Mental Health Radio Network and can be downloaded from
all podcast platforms. So if this show was of interest
to you, you might find the rest of our programs
informative as well. You can find them by searching for
Rethreading Madness wherever you listen to your podcasts. So you're
listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver call up Radio CFRI
one hundred point five FM Unburditing Fox, And today I'm
(31:58):
speaking with Mary Wool who is another author who was
a part of the anthology Off the Map. Mary, we've
known each other.
Speaker 11 (32:06):
For two thousand and seven, I think, really.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, wow, I was gonna say almost two two twenty
years and that is good, correct.
Speaker 13 (32:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
And we met through the gallery Ache, which you did
a lot of volunteering and worked for a bit.
Speaker 13 (32:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
So you wrote a piece that is a part of
this anthology. It's called on Santa Do, everything was beautiful.
Can you tell me about the story?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Wrote?
Speaker 14 (32:35):
Oh, e, cause there is a planet that I thought
existed when I was younger, and that was sort of
like a very beautiful planet that everybody go along with it,
no war, no salvation.
Speaker 11 (32:49):
Everything was just gorgeous.
Speaker 14 (32:51):
And I heard a contracted it with Earth in my
mind and it made Earth it even worse than I
ask you was.
Speaker 13 (32:58):
So yeah, Xanta Do that was great and Earth that
was horrible? Yeah, I see, okay. And and where did
the idea of for Xana Do come from?
Speaker 11 (33:07):
I don't know. I was about twenty five years old.
Speaker 14 (33:09):
There is nineteen seventy five, and what I had is
psychotic thought that there was another planet out there and
that my real biological parents came from that planet. So
it so a myth of my mind is at a
build on itself over the years.
Speaker 13 (33:25):
So can you describe Xanadu?
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Hm?
Speaker 14 (33:28):
Well, the way I remember it, it was a very
large planet, but as it it, it was just perfect.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
So when when you say perfect, though, what does that
mean by perfect? Might be very different than perfect for you.
Speaker 14 (33:43):
According to me, I thought the people on exander Do
live forever.
Speaker 13 (33:47):
Mm.
Speaker 14 (33:48):
There were no wars, no salvation, no crime, no nothing.
It was just a really good planet.
Speaker 13 (33:57):
That sounds like a lovely place to be.
Speaker 11 (33:59):
Yeah, it was. And that I realized that didn't exist.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
That musta been kind of devastating to know it didn't exist.
Part was it devastating to know that it didn't exist?
Speaker 11 (34:15):
That it did exist?
Speaker 8 (34:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 13 (34:17):
Yeah, it was sort of how did you know it
didn't exist?
Speaker 11 (34:20):
Part?
Speaker 13 (34:21):
How do you know that it didn't exist? Oh?
Speaker 11 (34:23):
I'm pretty sure it was psychotic?
Speaker 13 (34:26):
Okay, so then let's go to psychotic What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (34:29):
What?
Speaker 13 (34:29):
W how do you how do you didn't find that
it wasn't real?
Speaker 11 (34:32):
It did exist? It was just a big bet of
my imagination.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
But there are people who have imagination all the time, right,
Like I, I imagine.
Speaker 13 (34:40):
All kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
What's the difference between somebody imagining something and doing something
very clear and somebody who's psychotic?
Speaker 11 (34:48):
Though? Oh gosh, the difference for you? Yeah, MM, can't explain.
It's hard to explain.
Speaker 14 (34:56):
But it was psychotic. Think it was an imagination. I
could have the thought maybe there is a planet that
existed like that, mm, but the chancels are and maybe not.
Speaker 11 (35:08):
And if the if there was.
Speaker 14 (35:09):
I really would have no knowledge of it, right as
it would just it's called psychotic insight.
Speaker 13 (35:16):
Psychotic insight.
Speaker 14 (35:18):
Yeah, it's puzzling you about your delusion and become to
some psychotic insight that it explains.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Hm, so w you have schizophrenia?
Speaker 13 (35:33):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Right?
Speaker 13 (35:33):
You have schizophrenias?
Speaker 11 (35:35):
I did?
Speaker 13 (35:35):
You did?
Speaker 11 (35:36):
Okay?
Speaker 13 (35:36):
So what does that mean you did?
Speaker 14 (35:38):
What did that? I got no more delusional thinking m
and the negative sceptre's like depression and anxiety have mostly
gone away.
Speaker 11 (35:49):
Wow, so it was back in nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 13 (35:53):
And did they go away because you're on medication?
Speaker 11 (35:55):
Yes? It didn't put me on new medication.
Speaker 13 (35:57):
Sorry, say that again.
Speaker 11 (35:58):
They put me on a new mata ocasion called colozzaal coloso.
Speaker 14 (36:03):
Yeah, as one as second generation psychotic drugs.
Speaker 13 (36:08):
So it's an anti psychotic is that right?
Speaker 1 (36:10):
And that just took away the point that, yeah, that
seems very sad honestly.
Speaker 13 (36:16):
I mean, this world can be kind of rough to be.
Speaker 14 (36:20):
Remember that I was the happy sade. I didn't really
care too much anything.
Speaker 13 (36:25):
Right, Well, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I mean I don't always hear stories about how an
anti psychotic has helped somebody, So I'm really grateful that
that it helped you and that it's had such a positive.
Speaker 11 (36:35):
Impact on you. Yeah.
Speaker 14 (36:38):
Yeah, I hadn't really quite a good Psychi just Shem
retired think of twenty twelve.
Speaker 11 (36:46):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 13 (36:49):
Know way she is now retired. Yeah, So this story.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Is it's in Off the Map. What was it like
to how this process of writing? Cause I don't think
you are a writer, per se.
Speaker 11 (37:04):
I wrote that back in two thousand and ten. You
wrote this in uh rough draft for it?
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Oh?
Speaker 13 (37:09):
Okay, cool?
Speaker 11 (37:10):
The draft that I.
Speaker 14 (37:10):
Submitted to Off the Map editors, I wrote in two
thousand and ten, and I think I published it a
little magazine from Cols maybe or the or in a nutshell,
one of those little magazines.
Speaker 11 (37:26):
They are, right, And so I read about.
Speaker 14 (37:30):
This anthology at and people asking for contribution, but one right,
So I picked out that piece, a forgotten poem, and
sent it to them.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
So I there's a forgotten there is a poem in
here in as part of that. So is that the
poem you're talking about? What when you said the forgotten poem?
Speaker 11 (37:51):
Is this talking about a forgotten poem? Yeah? I read
a poem.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Okay, that was So you submitted your piece, and then
what happened.
Speaker 14 (37:59):
They accept the copywriter or the copy editor got it
and went with it, and Nathan Genus, all of which
I approved.
Speaker 13 (38:09):
So you were okay with the change out. The sometimes
editors make changes and you're going, hmm, it's.
Speaker 11 (38:14):
Not quite their discussion.
Speaker 13 (38:17):
That's good. So what do you hope people will get
out of this?
Speaker 11 (38:20):
Some understand theel it schizophree is like that.
Speaker 13 (38:24):
Yes, and I can see that. So and I'm going
to read a portion of this, okay, four folks. It's
actually a very short one, so I might be able
to read the whole thing.
Speaker 11 (38:33):
It could if you want to, Okay.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
And so what you're hoping is that people get a
sense of what it's like to have schizophrenia.
Speaker 14 (38:42):
Yeah, okay, I'll they quite pay though, that haschizophrenia. The
two minds, one mind there was this gorgeous planet. Yeah,
the mind there was just Earth, you know, it was
it wasn't mind there was a planet, and in another
mind there was just Earth and that they sort of
(39:03):
argue back and forth. Wow, you might bea I It
was very ardentally.
Speaker 11 (39:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
So when you got on a sort of dumb question,
when you got onto the medication did xanadude just disappear
and you were left? Were you left with this planet
that you didn't like or were you able? Was the
the negative part about the planet, part of the delusion? No?
Speaker 14 (39:25):
I think I was so happy to be saying after
about thirty years rybe. Yeah, like I think I've probably
looked back on it a bit that get anything, was
very nice with it, but yet no hack when that
light it disappeared?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
And what was it like to have schizophrenia in amongst society?
Speaker 11 (39:45):
Very difficult? Yeah, very very difficult.
Speaker 13 (39:49):
K Can you explain a little bit about that.
Speaker 14 (39:52):
It's harder to work, it's harder to go to school,
it's harder to be socialized.
Speaker 11 (39:59):
It's the harder law.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
So, so did you experience stigma or was it just
that you were living a life, an internal life that
other people couldn't relate Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, or probably
both yeah yeah?
Speaker 13 (40:15):
So when did your schizophrenia start?
Speaker 14 (40:18):
When I was twenty years old, but I wasn't hospitalized
til I was twenty one, Okay, I there was sort
of like about six months before I went crazy and
b and then checked into a hospital.
Speaker 13 (40:30):
Right right? And w was that experience okay?
Speaker 5 (40:34):
For you?
Speaker 14 (40:34):
Okay, you'rble, no, I have It was nineteen seventy one,
and I have a very seriously, you rest right, and
then they end.
Speaker 11 (40:43):
Up giving the ECT treatment.
Speaker 13 (40:49):
Did you recover from the ECT treatment? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 11 (40:53):
That's good.
Speaker 10 (40:54):
My mood got a bit lighter.
Speaker 13 (40:56):
Yeah, you moved, got lighter. Did it affect your memory
or not?
Speaker 11 (41:00):
I can read? Yeah, okay, yeah, all.
Speaker 13 (41:03):
Right, that's good.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
But again, you can't remember what you can't remember, so
you're not gonna know whether or not you don't remember, right,
That's yeah, kind of how memory goes. So okay, well,
thank you Mary for chatting with me, and with your permission,
I will read the story for people.
Speaker 11 (41:18):
Okay, say okay.
Speaker 13 (41:19):
And we'll be right back, folks.
Speaker 8 (41:24):
It's Side Story on co Op Radio one hundred point
five FM. Listen and reason with Alshall every second Monday
from four to five pm. Lend your ears and thoughts
on topics such as humanitarian issues, social justice, activism, and homelessness, poverty,
(41:47):
injustice here at home, in Canada and around the globe.
This Side Story comes to you every second Monday from
forty five pm on co Op Radio one hundred one
five and them as promised.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Here is Mary Phyllis O'Toole's short story called Onzanatu Everything
Was Beautiful. December twenty eighth, two thousand and nine, Vancouver, BC,
A few days before the new decade began. I decided
to go through, sort and organize my small apartment, a
(42:32):
symbolic out with the old and in with the new.
I began with the chest of drawers that held my
handicrafts and handicraft supplies. As I removed the shelf paper
and shook the drawer to remove dust, a few pages
flew out from between the shelf lining and the bottom
of the drawer. Thinking it was just a handicraft to
(42:56):
do list, I was about to throw it out, but
took a quick glance at the top sheet of paper
yet read kill Me Please. After the shock of reading
the title, I realized that it was a poem I
had written late in nineteen seventy seven or early nineteen
seventy eight, over thirty years before. At the time I
(43:19):
wrote the poem, I suffered from schizophrenia, which made it
difficult for me to tell what was real and what
was not. In my mind at the time, there was
two worlds. The real world that everybody experienced and the
insane world known only to me. Both of my minds
were constantly battling for supremacy, debating with each other about
(43:44):
what was real and what was not. The first verse
of the poem reads, kill me please, I see visions
of a beautiful white palace and little children playing by
a sparkly fountain, and a lover to take me in
his arms. Back then, in my same world, there existed
(44:05):
a planet called Xanadu. In Xanadu, there was a beautiful
white palace with sparkling fountains and children playing by it,
and a potential suitor near by. On Earth there were slums,
children starving, a lack of clean water, and no boyfriend.
Xanadu was one planet, one country, and no wars, while
(44:27):
Earth had many countries and many wars. The second verse
of the poem goes on to say, these visions are gossamer,
glistening webs in my mind, taunting me while I live
my non existent drudge of a day. Every night I
do the books of the hotel. Every day, I sleep
(44:48):
while people laugh and play. Each night I awaken only
to add the figures again, while the glistening visions dance
in my head. Around the time I wrote the poem,
I was a night auditor in a hotel, working the
graveyard shift. My job was to count the cash in
(45:08):
each register at the end of the day, which was
supposed to equal the total of receipts from the restaurant
and hotel rooms, and then record it. The same cash
reconciliation was repeated every night. The third verse reads, I
cannot take the bottle of pills to smash those visions.
I can only struggle through the nights and days. While
(45:30):
those visions taunt and torture. I can kill myself so easily.
It is those visions I cannot kill, So kill me please.
The clash of the two minds. In one part of
my mind, I believe both Xanadu and Earth existed, and
the other part new only Earth. The vision of a
(45:52):
beautiful planet where I some day may go contrasted with
the reality of Earth and created a constant turmoil in
my mind. The thought that Xanadu existed made life on
Earth less palatable, less livable. Perhaps the best way to
understand that clash in my mind is the following analogy.
(46:14):
A mother whose child has been missing for years, believes
in one part of her mind her child will some
day walk through the door, while in the next minute
she imagines her child's mutilated body lying in the woods.
The contrast in her mind is terrible, and she desperately
needs closure. She needs to know one way or the
(46:36):
other what is real and what is not. And so
it is with me. I needed to know one way
or the other. Was Xanadu real or imaginary? A few
years later I got the answer I'd been searching for.
My perfect planet was an illusion. Three and one half
years after I wrote the poem, I would be involuntary
(47:00):
committed to a psychiatric ward, and the planet of Xanadu
would vanish into thin air. In nineteen ninety nine, I
was put on a new antipsychotic drug, and the positive
symptoms such as delusions, hallucinations, and thought disorder disappeared. Over
the next decade, the negative symptoms of schizophrenia, such as
(47:21):
apathy and social withdrawal, gradually faded away.
Speaker 5 (47:26):
One hundred point five means non commercial listener power to
community radio. One hundred point five means music, public affairs,
and arts programming.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
I wish I loved the human race I wish I
loved each city phase.
Speaker 5 (47:42):
You won't find anywhere else on the radio dial. One
hundred point five is not owned by a huge corporation.
We are owned and operated by people like you, by
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Find our complete program schedule at co dot org.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
You're listening to Rethreating Madness on Vancouver Call up Radio
CFR one hundred point five f M. I'm Bernadine Fox,
and now we are going to do something a bit unusual.
This song, Wren's song is not a part of Off
the Map, but it belongs here with these other artists
talking about mental health. I will warn folks that there
(48:22):
are some swear words in this song, and I debated
about whether or not to bleep them out or cut
the song up and only present a portion here on air,
and I decided against that for one reason. Ren is
an artist. His song is his art, and it would be,
in my opinion, morally wrong to change a person's art.
(48:45):
And then I thought of not including it altogether, but
I realized that my listeners are all adults who can
decide for themselves if they are okay in this day
and age, hearing a swear word or not, and if not,
then I would invite you to stop listening for the
next ten minutes. This is Hi Ran Byron.
Speaker 15 (49:46):
I love away, Hi Dan Rand, it's been a little
(50:09):
what did you miss me?
Speaker 11 (50:11):
Thought he buried me?
Speaker 10 (50:12):
Didn't risky because I always come back?
Speaker 11 (50:14):
Did down?
Speaker 10 (50:14):
You know that down your nor mom always brant and
you're pleased to see me. It's been weeks since we
spoke probah, I no, you need me.
Speaker 9 (50:20):
You're the sheep, and the shepherd not your place to
lead me or your place to be buying off the
hand that feeds me. Hi Brand, I've been taking some
time to be distant. I've been taking some time to
be still. I've been taking some time to be by
myself since my therapist told me I'm billed, and I've
been making some progress lately, and I've learned from the
coping skills, so I haven't really needed you much.
Speaker 11 (50:40):
Man.
Speaker 10 (50:41):
I think we need to just step back and chill.
Speaker 11 (50:43):
Ran. You sound one is saying, and I.
Speaker 9 (50:44):
Do you think that those doctors are really that's a
guide you've been through. There's a million times, just a billion, mind.
It is a perfect the always being lie to you. Okay,
take another pill boy around yourself in the sound don't
white noise. Follow this ten step program, rejoiced, all your
problems will be gone. Fucking dumb boy. This time is different, man,
Trust me. I feel like things might be falling in place,
and my music's being kind of doing bits too, like
(51:06):
I actually might do something great, and when I'm gone,
maybe I'll be remembered for doing something special with myself.
That's why you don't think that we should talk, man,
because when you're with me, it never seems to help.
You think that you can amputate me. I am you,
you are me, You are I, I am we We
are ones flitting too, that nice one.
Speaker 10 (51:22):
So you see, you gotta kill you if you want
to kill me.
Speaker 9 (51:25):
I'm not left up with dinner. I'm not scrapped on
the side. Oh, your music is driving, delusional guy? Where's
your top ten hit? Where's your interview with Oprah?
Speaker 11 (51:31):
Wow?
Speaker 9 (51:32):
Your Grammy's ran nowhere? Yeah, But my music's not commercial
like that. I never chase numbers, statistics or starts. I
never write hooks for the radio. They never even played me,
so why would I concern myself with that? But my
music is really connected and the people who find it respected.
And for me that's enough because this life's been tough,
so it gives me your purpose that I'm resting. Man,
(51:52):
you sound so pretentious, Ran, Your music is so self centered.
Speaker 10 (51:55):
No one wants to hear another song about how much
you hate yourself. Trust me, you should be so lucky.
Speaker 9 (52:00):
Having me inside you to guide you, remind you to
manage expectations, provide you perspective.
Speaker 10 (52:04):
Nothingly neglecting.
Speaker 11 (52:05):
I get it.
Speaker 10 (52:06):
You want to be a big deal next to me Hendrix.
Speaker 9 (52:08):
Forget Man, it's not like that. Man, it's just like that.
I'm inside you.
Speaker 3 (52:11):
You know it's not.
Speaker 9 (52:12):
Man, You're wrong when I write I'm along. Let me
break the fourth wall by acknowledging this song. N sits
down has a stroke of genius. He wants to write
a song that was not done previous about with this
subconscious emmanand did.
Speaker 10 (52:23):
It played on guitar plan B?
Speaker 11 (52:24):
Did it? Man?
Speaker 9 (52:25):
You the original and Ripe the pinnacle of yours? Because
that's just seeing other people's material, Ran, Mate, we've heard
it all before shows on the sea show.
Speaker 10 (52:33):
Fuck you.
Speaker 9 (52:34):
I don't need you.
Speaker 10 (52:35):
I don't need to hear this because I'm fine.
Speaker 9 (52:37):
By myself. I'm a genius and I will be great,
and I will make waves and I'll shake up the
whole world beneath it. That's right, speaking truth, your fucking
dot complex leaks out of you. It's refreshing to have
for you saying it, sell it down play. Music is
all about the creative process, and if people can find
something to relate to within that, then that's just a bonus.
Fuck you come and fucking kill you ran fucking kill me?
(52:58):
That have you rang gonna do it?
Speaker 10 (53:00):
What's we prove it? Who are you to done? My music?
Is that called the shots?
Speaker 3 (53:02):
That's choosing die?
Speaker 9 (53:03):
Yeah, I call the shots, and so I choose you survives.
I'll tie you up in knots when I locked you inside. Newsflash,
I was created at the dawn of creation. I am temptation.
I am the snake and eden. I am the reason
for treason, the heading or kings. I am sin with
(53:23):
no rhyme or reasons. On the morning, Lucifer Anti, cry
father of lies, my stuff a lees truth and the
blend of de sequl pretender, the vanished avenger, the righteous,
so random when standing in front of my soular a
clips my name is stage to your lips. So you
see I want bow to the will of immortal feequal
the normal. Do you want to kill me?
Speaker 10 (53:42):
I'm a turn of the morte.
Speaker 9 (53:43):
I live in every decision that cattle lies CHAOSO causes
the vision I live inside.
Speaker 10 (53:48):
That's the beginning of hands.
Speaker 16 (53:50):
I am you, You are me, I am you friends,
(54:11):
Hi Ran, I've been taking some time to be distant.
Speaker 9 (54:15):
I've been taking some time to be still. I've been
taking some time to be by myself. And I've spent
half my life ill. But just as sure as the
tide starts turning, just as sure as the night has dawned,
just as sure as the rainfall soon wants drive when
you stand in an eye of a storm.
Speaker 10 (54:32):
I was made to be tested and twisted. I was
made to be broken and beat. I was made by
his hand.
Speaker 9 (54:38):
It's a part of his plan that I stand on
my own two feet.
Speaker 10 (54:41):
And you know me. My will is eternal, and you
know me.
Speaker 9 (54:44):
You've met me before, face to face with a beast
that will rise from the east. And I'll settle on
the ocean floor and I go buy many names. Also,
some people know me as hope. Some people know me
as the voice that you hear when you loosen the
noose on the road. Can you know how I know
that I'll prosper because I stand here beside you today.
(55:05):
I have stood in the flames that cremated my brain,
and I didn't once lips your shape, So Kara and
the man I have become, when I sing from the
top of my.
Speaker 17 (55:14):
Lungs, that I won't retire role standing in your fire.
Speaker 10 (55:17):
Inspi adam to be strong. When I am.
Speaker 17 (55:20):
Gone, I will write in the music that I left
behind for ross, persistent, immortal like you, will reclaim it.
In difference, I, when.
Speaker 18 (56:25):
I was seventeen years old, I shouted out into an
empty room, into a blank canvas, that I would defeat
the forces of evil, and for the next ten years
of my life I suffered the consequences with autoimmunity, illness,
and psychosis. As I got older, I realized there were
no real winners and there were no real losers in
(56:49):
psychological warfare. But there were victims and there were students.
It wasn't David versus Goliath. It was a pendulum eternally
swaying from the start to the light. And the more
intensely that the light shone, the darker, the shadow with cast.
It was never really a battle for me to win.
(57:11):
It was an eternal dance. And like a dance, the
more rigid I became, the harder it got, the more
I cursed my clumsy footsteps, the more I struggled. So
I got older, and I learned to relax, and I
learned to soften, and that dance got easier. It is
this eternal dance that separates human beings from angels, from
(57:35):
demons from gods.
Speaker 3 (57:39):
And I must not forget.
Speaker 10 (57:41):
We must not forget.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
That we are human beings, and that's our show. My
thanks to Bene Dixon, Angela Gray, Mary O'Toole and Wren
for sharing their art with us. I'm hoping to interview
more of the writers from Off the Map in the
coming week. Yes, as always share we all rex sings
us into and out of our program each week. And
(58:05):
to you, our listeners, thank you for joining us today.
Stay safe out there. You've just listened to Rethreading Madness,
where we dare to change how we think about mental health.
We air live on Vancouver co Op Radio CFRI one
hundred point five FM every Tuesday at five pm or
online at co opradio dot org. If you have questions
(58:26):
or feedback about this program, I want to share your
story or have something to say to us, We want
to hear from you. You can reach us by email
rethreading Madness at co opradio dot org. This is Bernardine Fox.
We'll be back next week.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
Until then, we have ever been father gone? What the
hell I'm gonna do? W I can't see fine way.
Speaker 10 (58:57):
Under over?
Speaker 2 (59:03):
Just when I'm ready.
Speaker 19 (59:04):
To give up the fight, they are when we turn
out the lights in It's sorry, it's all right.
Speaker 2 (59:16):
Don't you really be alright? Why do I always believe
but when you're telling me everything's gonna be all right?
Speaker 3 (59:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (59:37):
Why don't I wonder how you know?
Speaker 10 (59:42):
Surely you don't have all of the facts.
Speaker 19 (59:48):
You could be just making it up.
Speaker 2 (59:53):
Why don't I ever think of that?
Speaker 10 (59:58):
It's kinda mess.
You're listening to Vancouver co Op Radio cfr OH one
hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Musquam and Slighway Tooth
nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernadine Fox, and
this is this show that dares to change how we
think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Ween have ever been further.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
No?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
What the hell I'm gonna do when I can't see
a fine way under over?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver cup Radio cfr
OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox, and
I am speaking with various writers from a new book
that's been available since the beginning of May through Belle Press.
A new anthology out from Vancouver. It's called Off the
Map and it is featuring Vancouver writers with lived experience
(01:07):
of mental health issues, which is right up our alley
here at Rethreading madnesson. So I have the pleasure of
talking to several of the writers from that book and
find out what they wrote about, why they wrote about it,
and what they're hoping happens with this book. So the
first person I get to talk to is Benge Dixon. Benge,
(01:27):
Did I say your name right?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
You you know, we're Facebook friends, so I see your
name all the time. It never occurred to me that
I might not know how to say your name, but
once I said it, it didn't sound like it was
the right name. But Benge is the right name. So
you're one of the writers in this anthology. What inspired
you to write for this book?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Well, I took part in a workshop that was organized
by Sema Shaw and run by Betsy Woreland, and there
were a lot of writers from around Vancouver with experience
of madness, and we were all just workshopping ideas and
talking about ideas. I've been working on a comic book
(02:12):
for some time and it was mainly for that that
I was there. But eventually we became we came to
a place where we decided to write actually stories for
an anthology, and this one came to me.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
It's a lovely story. Do you want to tell people
what it's about.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
The story is about my rush to the other side
of the country to try and get away from myself,
and my meeting with a cat who became a really
important part of my life and kept me alive during
that time period that I was there, which is about
seven years seven.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Did you say seventeen years or seven or seven seven years? Yeah,
it would be a very old pat if it was
seventeen years. Well, it's a very old cat, although there
are cats that live that old. I think one of
the things that people underestimate is just how much we
might stay alive for a being that's in our life,
(03:15):
whether it's a child or another person who's dependent on us,
or an animal, and how much impact that can have
on our lives. When you think about the impact Linus
had other than staying alive, what else did he bring
to your life?
Speaker 4 (03:36):
He gave me a sense of just being. He was
an incredibly patient person, he would and a great hunter,
and he showed me a lot of what was around me.
Because I was living in the country, and because I
had been so inside of myself, he helped me step
(03:56):
outside of that and look around because he was doing
and I was looking at him, and then I looked for.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
You. You were going to read a piece of your
writing that that is in this book. Are you able
to do that now?
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Yes? I'll just read the first part of the story. Okay, okay,
this is the story is called Linus traveling east driving
an old souped up pickup named Amadeas. I hadn't driven
for ten years, nor had I driven anything bigger than
a sedan. A blind run from defeat, shame, agony, east
(04:41):
east and further east because east is not West. Defeat,
shame and agony arrived. A week or so after I
did like big where Bob Height said, wherever you go,
where you are. I bought a water one hundred year old,
falling down house in Murphy Cove, a small community on
(05:04):
the eastern Shore. I had three neighbors eat your half
acre or more apart for me and from one another.
I knew none of them. This complimented my uncertainty. I
settled in, howling into the beauty of silence, waiting for
the right moment to end my life quietly, far away
(05:26):
from family, not wanting to bequeath them the funeral arrangement.
I was a brokenness, squattered over by egoism and self doubt.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yes, it's a beautiful passage. I love that line, howling
into the beauty of silence, and it evokes so much
in me that I'm not even sure I could tell
you what it evokes. I just know it evokes in
me a sense of being in appreciation of the space
(05:59):
it creates. I don't know how to say that any differently,
but he creates a space that I really quite appreciate.
Your writing is very well done, and the relationship between
you and Linus are it becomes very very clear, And
you're right. Animals, you know, come into our lives and
they they change things if we allow them to change things.
(06:21):
And it's very clear. How did Linus come to live
with you?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
He had well, a friend of a friend told her
about him, and then I was sort of pressured into
taking him because they kept giving notices about him being
on death row. And his person was another lesbian I'm
a little lesbian. And this person was an older woman
who suffered from dementia and she could no longer take
(06:48):
care of her cat, so she was in the hospital
and Linus was alone, and eventually he just he came
to me against my will, really, because I really didn't
think I could take care of him. I didn't think
I was apt to taking care of him. But you know,
the death row thing had.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Me, Yes, you were contemplating suicide I was.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
I was.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
That's why I went there.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And Linus became a problem in your in your contemplation
of that suicide.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
That's right, because he was a living being who I
had accepted responsibility for. I didn't feel I could just
suddenly leave him to his own devices or to another person,
yet another person, so I stayed with him. He kept
me here.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Are you happy that you're here? Or is that a
hard question?
Speaker 4 (07:45):
That's a hard question. Depends on the days.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
On the day, Yeah, no, I get that, it's true.
It does depend on the day. Where's Linus now?
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Linus died after we came to Vancouver. It's for really
sad stories. I won't tell that kind of I'm sorry
for the story in the book, but I'd miss him
every day.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, I understand that our animals are very important to us.
Why did you want this story to go out to people?
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Well, at first I wasn't sure what to write about,
and then I thought I needed another cat. Friend of
mine had died, so I thought I would couldn't write
about him. I'd have to write back in time to
the time when you know, I had never written about Linus,
and Linus was what pulled me out of a really
(08:39):
terrible place and allowed me to see some things that
I hadn't been seeing and just take a time, take
time to sit and watch things other than myself, to
get out of my own self. So I think that's
why I decided to write, because I thought, well, that's
one of the things a lot of us struggle with,
is being inside of ourselves so deeply that difficulty getting out.
(09:04):
And animals definitely can do that for us, even if
you know they might not be our cat might be,
a bird might be you know, like a crow. Watching
the crows can do that, or just watching nature can
do that. To not be in myself, I thought that
would mix well with what's happening in the book. Although
I haven't read the other stories, and I'm really excited
(09:26):
about reading those.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
There are some really wonderful stories in this book. Yours,
in my opinion, is one of the ones that I
appreciate a lot, and I think probably because I have cats.
My cats are important. But I also had a dog
who came into my life in a kind of the
same way. I mean, I never intended to have a talk.
(09:50):
My grandchild wanted to take this dog and fix it
because it was going to die, and it was going
to die. It was it was eight years old, and
it was very second it was going to die. And
so we brought it home and fixed it up and
tried to take it back to where it belonged, and
that didn't happen, and so we ended up trying to
figure out how to find a home for it. But
as we're doing that, of course every week this dog
(10:11):
would grow like yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
And then you can't and you can't.
Speaker 6 (10:15):
It's harder and harder going, Oh it's a cute little
eight week Oh no, wait a minute, it's it's you know,
like forty pounds now and oh wait a minute, it's
ninety pounds, and you know, and it.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Absolutely loves you. I mean, it's just it just loved me,
and I I mean, it was just one of the
one of the great joys of my life, having this
dog that just about you know, did me in because
it was ninety pounds and really needed to run and
I have chronic fatigue and try to do that. And
so he did find a home. He is happily a
(10:46):
sconce in the Cootney Mountains and exactly where he needed
to be. But yeah, so I understand having animals comment
you didn't expect to have and having them just literally
change your life for the better. So thank you Ben
for coming and chatting with us about this.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Thank you very much, and we'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Folks here.
Speaker 7 (11:08):
Tani yup Qui gate euons Queen Sna Hi, everybody. My
name is quigate Ywon's I'm a member of the Squamish
Nation and the Yaglanis Klan of the Hyda Nation. You're
listening to co Op Radio CFRO one hundred point five FM.
We live, work, play and broadcast from the traditional ancestral
and unseeded territories of the Musquiam, Squamish and Sleavetooth nations.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
You're listening to Reeth Threading Madness on Vancouver co Op
Radio CFRO one hundred point five FM. I'm brought itting
Fox and today I have the pleasure speaking with Angela Gray,
who is one of the authors of a short story
in the book called Off the Map. Today we are
interviewing people who have been included in this publication, and
(11:52):
Angela is one of them, and she had a very
unique story written in a very unique style, and I'm
very glad to be able to ask her questions about it.
So welcome, Angela, thank you. Can you tell us a
little bit about who you are?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Sure? Sure? So I'm gonna be picky because I do
go by Angela J. Gray. And the reason I do
that is because there's so many of us. Oh there,
like there's just you know, there's so many of us.
So I just decided I'm just going to do in
Vancouver alone. There's like four of us. So wow, So
I just I go by Angela J. Gray. Not because
(12:29):
I'm necessarily actually attached to J because it is my
middle name is named after my adopted mother, who I
have a contentious relationship with. But that's my way reclaiming
And so I am. I am a mother, I'm a twin,
I'm a friend, and I'm a writer and I'm a creative.
(12:52):
And I come to this work from my twenties, probably sooner,
probably made my teens. I was really interested. I love
to dance. It was one of the ways to move
through some of the things that were happening to me.
And I also loved listening to music, so I started
(13:13):
playing guitar and I started writing songs for my guitar,
and then it turned into writing poetry. About pain really
and my experiences in a roundabout way around my adoption experience.
And from there I came out TOBC and started living
(13:33):
in Vancouver and had enough space for my adoptive family
to really think about writing about my experience. And so
the writing at that time was really angry. It was
angry writing necessary for my growth and development. And then
I started really researching how to be a writer, and
(13:55):
I got into Booming Ground at UBC in early two thousands.
By this point, I had a four year old five
year old son, and I decided that I needed to
focus on raising him. So I set aside writing focused
on working and raising him. And then I went back
(14:16):
to school to study addictions counseling actually, and when I
finished that program, I decided that I needed to reconcile
my own story before I went out helping other peoples
with theirs, and so I got back to writing and
finished this memoir called a Clean House.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
And is that published?
Speaker 3 (14:36):
At this point, I'm looking for a publisher. I've got,
you know, small small pieces that have been published here
and there. I've done readings publicly. I've had some really
great opportunities recently in Vancouver with my poetry and yes,
(14:58):
so I'm just looking for looking for publisher and have
actually started my next book as well.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Cool writing is such a huge thing. I know people
talk about writing a book. I did write a memoir,
and memoirs are one of the the very naive statement
coming from me, but in my opinion, very hard things
to do because if it's an issue that is, you know,
an intense issue of any kind of you really have
(15:25):
to dig down deep in terms of finding your own
honesty and being able to put it on paper. It's
not an easy thing to do at all. You do
have to own your crap basically.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So you do you do? It was interesting I had
somebody read my memoir recently and one of their comments was, oh,
do you need to put that thing in there about that?
And I said, well, yeah, I actually do. Like you can't,
you know, talk about all the things that happened to
you without having some accountability and responsibility for what those
(15:59):
things did to you. Chose to do because of those
things at that time.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, editing, people want us to edit, but when it's
your life and you want to get through your life,
editing is not the thing. Censoring, I guess is the
thing I want to say, Censoring is not the way
to do it. So tell us about this story you
put in here. It's called it is ordered.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
So it is ordered. It's in the story itself. I've
taken my adoption order, the official adoption order, and I've
cut it up, if you will, and blocked out, you know,
marked out pieces of it to clude into a story
about my adoption and that you know, this adoption happened.
(16:49):
It was a part of an adoption experiment that was
happening in the nineteen sixties seventies out of Toronto, getting
black kids out of foster care into homes and which
would be primarily white homes at the time. I suspect
it probably still is. But it's really about this experiment.
(17:11):
And you know, these projects happen. People do experiments, but
they never really look at the long term impact of them.
So I really wanted to highlight this adoption order, what
was going on in the family, the home that they've
placed me in, my twin in, and to allow the
(17:32):
reader to surmise some of the long term impacts of that.
And the best way I thought, in terms of this
piece and applying to get this piece published would be
through this story. So I'm talking a bit about the
early days and some of the things that happened in
the home. There is a trigger warning. I like to
(17:53):
warn people about that, and it's difficult to write, but
I think it's necessary to say.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Mm hmmm, yes, absolutely. I so agree that we need
to talk about what is not what we want to
kind of pretend you can close an experiment. What was
the point of the experiment.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
I think, just based on some of my own research,
the point was to I think it all My feeling
is it all comes down to money. So getting kids
out of foster care. So we you know, black kids
were deemed as as hard to adopt at that time.
(18:37):
Languaging at that time was you knew Negro children getting
that That's what the experiment was called, not the adoption
of Negro children, a community wide approach. And so it
brought in Children's Aid Society, the Catholic Children's a society,
the Jewish community in Toronto to think about innovative ways
(18:58):
to get these kids my twin and I included out
of foster care. And so I don't think they wanted
to pay for us to be there, and we were
actually taken from our mother without our consent, her consent.
She was a non landed immigrant in Toronto coming from Jamaica,
(19:18):
gave birth prematurely, didn't know she was having twins, and
essentially we were taken from that point and our names
were changed, we were put up for adoption, we were
advertised across the country in a newspaper article called Today's Child,
and were lost to her until I decided to find
(19:41):
what happened. So the memoir talks all about that. But yeah,
oh my God is right that that is the right reaction.
And so there were many children, probably over four thousand
children that were advertised in this Today's Child article, primarily
Indigenous children.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
That's where I was going to go next.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Primarily Indigenous children. And I think that the social experiment,
the adoption of Negro children, I will say that again,
was probably based on what was happening to Indigenous children
at that as well.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Well.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
The parameters are the same, exactly the same, including that
children of color were being placed in white homes. And
you have to kind of, you know, sort of wank
your head around trying to figure out what could possibly
they thought they were going to get out of this
it other than making children not indigenous or not children
(20:43):
of color of some kind.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
I just my brain just wants to shut it all out.
Quite frankly, it's just too hard to imagine even your mother,
you know, just you know, coming here and being an
immigrant and this isn't you know, this is a strange
place and birth and then giving birth to twins and
then having her children removed from her. That is traumatizing, hugely,
(21:07):
hugely traumatizing. It doesn't sound like you were removed because
she did anything wrong.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
The only thing she did wrong was to be in
the country and not landed. And that's and so I
can only imagine, you know, I've talked to people, and
I stopped talking to people because I said, oh, Angela,
there was laws against that. That couldn't have happened. And
it's just like, why could it happened? Right, Like, why
you know it did happen? Can we just say that
(21:36):
it did happen. I believe my mother. I believe my mother,
and and you know the fact that we were advertised
in a newspaper article without our original birth names says
a lot to me.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, yeah, it's true. And I don't understand how people
I mean, maybe they said this couldn't happen many many
years ago, but we understand now about sixty scoop. This
is exactly what happened. It's not a question anymore. And
of course we know that the sixty scoop is still happening.
(22:11):
You know, it's just not calling the sixty scoop anymore.
Children are still being taken at alarming rates away from
people of color, Indigenous people in particular. So what do
you hope people get from your story?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
I think first, I hope that people understand that adoption
isn't pretty right. I've heard so many times, Oh, you
must be so grateful, grateful for what, grateful for what.
So I would like there to be more of a
narrative about adoption from the adoptee perspective. I would like
(22:49):
for folks to feel that they can talk about the
traumatic things that have happened to them and that those
things aren't them I lived with. That must be something
wrong with me. I must have brought this on myself.
I didn't. I was just there. And I want and
so I want there to be more discussion about the
(23:10):
impact of trauma and how it shows up in our
day to day life. I'm not over it by any means.
I don't think I ever will be, but I live well,
you know, I'm doing the things that I enjoy, and
when it comes up for me, I have tools that
I can deal with it right for the most part,
and if I don't, then I don't get some help.
But for the most part, I'm doing okay. But it's
(23:31):
taken me a long time. And so I want there
to be some normalization around the impacts of trauma, because
you're right, the stigma, right, it's so hard to come
and talk about this, And then I'm thinking, why am
I feeling shamed about talking about something that happened to me?
It is not my shame to.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Kill And you're not defined by it, right, you know,
we are not defined by the actions of our offenders.
We just aren't. And we do need to be taking
that back and not allowing ourselves to be pathologized, to
not have that trauma pathologized, because what that does, in
my humble opinion, is it puts the blame on the victim,
(24:11):
when the responsibility to fix it on the victim and
not on the people who actually have the power to
in fact fix the fact that people are out there
hurting other people. So can you read us a bit
of your story?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I can, yes, so again trigger warning here. I began
my new life crying in a high chair in a
room unfamiliar. Clara shared a story over dinner once about
(24:46):
this time William and I howled for the first two
days we lived in our new home. She released an
odd sort of chuckle while she described this at dinner time,
when my food was not yet finished. Clara often reflected
on the past or doled out humiliations for punishments needed
(25:07):
because of something that happened in the present. After you
joined your adoptive parents, that you took a while to settle,
but eventually you and your brother began eating and sleeping well.
Other children in the family reacted well to your arrival,
played with you and sharing their toys. They were delighted
(25:29):
with their new sister and brother. My twin and I
became members of our new family on Canada Day we
were officially adopted. Three months later. We arrived that summer.
Before my memories were formed, I did not settle. The siblings,
who once eagerly shared their toys became people I secretly
(25:51):
began to dislike. When their play became nightmare worthy. My
unraveling began. I found souls in leaning my back against
the cedar tree in the backyard. Today I seek the
cedar tree in the yard where I live. When the
day is hard, I will stand beside it, allowing all
(26:11):
that pains me to be taken away, absorbed into it.
My existence in that house never made sense to me,
and over time I began to hate the word Chosen.
Trees made sense to me. They never instilled pain. There
was a sun spot near the lilac tree that bloomed
every spring beside my parents' house. I love sitting there.
(26:34):
The smell of lilacs reminds me of that insignificant place
that was safe. The sun took me in. I disappeared
into it and dwelled in the quiet stories that occupied
my mind. Sometimes, though, when I could not contain all
that I could not speak, I would kill the ants
(26:55):
that were close to me, the bugs that I could hurt.
The killings caused me anguish. I will now, whenever possible,
catch a bug, if indoors, and put it outside. My
siblings were told my absence was due to a surgery.
I needed my unbiblical cord removed because it hadn't fallen
(27:17):
off properly. What I had was a bacterial infection that
could not be identified. I was told the doctors burned
my toys and the clothing I came into the hospital with.
Because of this, Clara and a Bith had directed me
to look out the window and wave at my siblings
(27:38):
they were visiting me. I cannot remember if Susan, Michael, John,
Myra or William were there sitting on the hood of
the Chevy while I looked out of my white, disinfected
hospital room. As I looked down from the hospital window,
I could see the bay where the boat sailed. I
know Anne was there, her smile, her long hair, her
(28:01):
arms stretched higher than the others. I still recall. Anne
told me not to tell, and I didn't tell anyone
about what she made me do to her. Clara just
couldn't understand why I could not stop throwing up. I
just kept throwing up until there was no choice but
to take me to the hospital. I do not know
(28:24):
if that was the last time. I do not know
how many times it happened before. I never liked seeing
Anne in that blue velor housecoat. Whenever I did, my
body tensed, and I instantly felt bad. Whenever she pulled
me down the basement stairs while wearing that house coat,
I knew I would soon feel crummy, a shame I
(28:45):
would not understand until much later in my life. In
my grade five school year, Anne was away at college.
I was asleep in the basement and Anne's bad, that bad,
all alone, surrounded by her things. I had many night
visits and nightmares that year.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I really appreciate that you're talking about a female perpetrator.
It's something we do not talk enough about in this society,
and so thank you for that. It is something that
we need to talk about more because people are being hurt,
just in the way that you talked about this. So
the book that you're in is called Off the Map
see Vancouver Writers with Lived Experience of Mental health issues.
(29:29):
It's published by Bell. It's edited by Betsy Worland, Sema
Shaw and Kate Bird. So thank you very much, Angela
for sharing not only your story but also your writing
with us. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Thank you for having me. I appreciate that very much.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
You're welcome, and we'll be right back.
Speaker 8 (29:48):
Folks.
Speaker 9 (29:53):
Oh you hear of this.
Speaker 10 (29:55):
A lot of people call this a rock and roll.
Speaker 11 (30:00):
Swings.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
This is going be all let's see with the left hand. Yeah,
and the right hand fits in with something like this.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, here we go now.
Speaker 12 (30:12):
Yeah, it's called rock and roll and you can hear
all about it on Rock Talk Discover the hidden but
enchanting side of the music Friday mornings at nine o'clock.
Speaker 11 (30:25):
Oh, that isn't enchanting.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
Nothing is.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Go ahead, Jess, dance go crazy. You're listening to Rethreading
Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio cfr OH one hundred
point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox. Rethreading Madness is coming
up to its sixth anniversary of being on air. We
produce an air each week out of cfr OH one
(30:50):
hundred point five FM on the unseated traditional territory of
the Squamish, Muscriham and Sleighweight Tooth nations around Vancouver. Bc
RGM was one of the first radio programs to focus
on mental health issues here in Canada, in an area
swamped with statements from therapists rooted in colonial ideas about
mental health and trained in the DSM. RTM works to
(31:13):
ensure that the voices of those with lived experience have
agency and opportunity to define who they are and what
is true for them who listens to us. Beyond those
with lived experience, our audience includes their friends and partners,
along with therapists, counselors, and students of psychology. Since twenty
twenty two, all of our programs have been uploaded to
(31:35):
the Mental Health Radio Network and can be downloaded from
all podcast platforms. So if this show was of interest
to you, you might find the rest of our programs
informative as well. You can find them by searching for
Rethreading Madness wherever you listen to your podcasts. So you're
listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver call up Radio CFRI
one hundred point five FM Unburditing Fox, And today I'm
(31:58):
speaking with Mary Wool who is another author who was
a part of the anthology Off the Map. Mary, we've
known each other.
Speaker 11 (32:06):
For two thousand and seven, I think, really.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, wow, I was gonna say almost two two twenty
years and that is good, correct.
Speaker 13 (32:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
And we met through the gallery Ache, which you did
a lot of volunteering and worked for a bit.
Speaker 13 (32:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
So you wrote a piece that is a part of
this anthology. It's called on Santa Do, everything was beautiful.
Can you tell me about the story?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Wrote?
Speaker 14 (32:35):
Oh, e, cause there is a planet that I thought
existed when I was younger, and that was sort of
like a very beautiful planet that everybody go along with it,
no war, no salvation.
Speaker 11 (32:49):
Everything was just gorgeous.
Speaker 14 (32:51):
And I heard a contracted it with Earth in my
mind and it made Earth it even worse than I
ask you was.
Speaker 13 (32:58):
So yeah, Xanta Do that was great and Earth that
was horrible? Yeah, I see, okay. And and where did
the idea of for Xana Do come from?
Speaker 11 (33:07):
I don't know. I was about twenty five years old.
Speaker 14 (33:09):
There is nineteen seventy five, and what I had is
psychotic thought that there was another planet out there and
that my real biological parents came from that planet. So
it so a myth of my mind is at a
build on itself over the years.
Speaker 13 (33:25):
So can you describe Xanadu?
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Hm?
Speaker 14 (33:28):
Well, the way I remember it, it was a very
large planet, but as it it, it was just perfect.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
So when when you say perfect, though, what does that
mean by perfect? Might be very different than perfect for you.
Speaker 14 (33:43):
According to me, I thought the people on exander Do
live forever.
Speaker 13 (33:47):
Mm.
Speaker 14 (33:48):
There were no wars, no salvation, no crime, no nothing.
It was just a really good planet.
Speaker 13 (33:57):
That sounds like a lovely place to be.
Speaker 11 (33:59):
Yeah, it was. And that I realized that didn't exist.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
That musta been kind of devastating to know it didn't exist.
Part was it devastating to know that it didn't exist?
Speaker 11 (34:15):
That it did exist?
Speaker 8 (34:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 13 (34:17):
Yeah, it was sort of how did you know it
didn't exist?
Speaker 11 (34:20):
Part?
Speaker 13 (34:21):
How do you know that it didn't exist? Oh?
Speaker 11 (34:23):
I'm pretty sure it was psychotic?
Speaker 13 (34:26):
Okay, so then let's go to psychotic What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (34:29):
What?
Speaker 13 (34:29):
W how do you how do you didn't find that
it wasn't real?
Speaker 11 (34:32):
It did exist? It was just a big bet of
my imagination.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
But there are people who have imagination all the time, right,
Like I, I imagine.
Speaker 13 (34:40):
All kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
What's the difference between somebody imagining something and doing something
very clear and somebody who's psychotic?
Speaker 11 (34:48):
Though? Oh gosh, the difference for you? Yeah, MM, can't explain.
It's hard to explain.
Speaker 14 (34:56):
But it was psychotic. Think it was an imagination. I
could have the thought maybe there is a planet that
existed like that, mm, but the chancels are and maybe not.
Speaker 11 (35:08):
And if the if there was.
Speaker 14 (35:09):
I really would have no knowledge of it, right as
it would just it's called psychotic insight.
Speaker 13 (35:16):
Psychotic insight.
Speaker 14 (35:18):
Yeah, it's puzzling you about your delusion and become to
some psychotic insight that it explains.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Hm, so w you have schizophrenia?
Speaker 13 (35:33):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Right?
Speaker 13 (35:33):
You have schizophrenias?
Speaker 11 (35:35):
I did?
Speaker 13 (35:35):
You did?
Speaker 11 (35:36):
Okay?
Speaker 13 (35:36):
So what does that mean you did?
Speaker 14 (35:38):
What did that? I got no more delusional thinking m
and the negative sceptre's like depression and anxiety have mostly
gone away.
Speaker 11 (35:49):
Wow, so it was back in nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 13 (35:53):
And did they go away because you're on medication?
Speaker 11 (35:55):
Yes? It didn't put me on new medication.
Speaker 13 (35:57):
Sorry, say that again.
Speaker 11 (35:58):
They put me on a new mata ocasion called colozzaal coloso.
Speaker 14 (36:03):
Yeah, as one as second generation psychotic drugs.
Speaker 13 (36:08):
So it's an anti psychotic is that right?
Speaker 1 (36:10):
And that just took away the point that, yeah, that
seems very sad honestly.
Speaker 13 (36:16):
I mean, this world can be kind of rough to be.
Speaker 14 (36:20):
Remember that I was the happy sade. I didn't really
care too much anything.
Speaker 13 (36:25):
Right, Well, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I mean I don't always hear stories about how an
anti psychotic has helped somebody, So I'm really grateful that
that it helped you and that it's had such a positive.
Speaker 11 (36:35):
Impact on you. Yeah.
Speaker 14 (36:38):
Yeah, I hadn't really quite a good Psychi just Shem
retired think of twenty twelve.
Speaker 11 (36:46):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 13 (36:49):
Know way she is now retired. Yeah, So this story.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Is it's in Off the Map. What was it like
to how this process of writing? Cause I don't think
you are a writer, per se.
Speaker 11 (37:04):
I wrote that back in two thousand and ten. You
wrote this in uh rough draft for it?
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Oh?
Speaker 13 (37:09):
Okay, cool?
Speaker 11 (37:10):
The draft that I.
Speaker 14 (37:10):
Submitted to Off the Map editors, I wrote in two
thousand and ten, and I think I published it a
little magazine from Cols maybe or the or in a nutshell,
one of those little magazines.
Speaker 11 (37:26):
They are, right, And so I read about.
Speaker 14 (37:30):
This anthology at and people asking for contribution, but one right,
So I picked out that piece, a forgotten poem, and
sent it to them.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
So I there's a forgotten there is a poem in
here in as part of that. So is that the
poem you're talking about? What when you said the forgotten poem?
Speaker 11 (37:51):
Is this talking about a forgotten poem? Yeah? I read
a poem.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Okay, that was So you submitted your piece, and then
what happened.
Speaker 14 (37:59):
They accept the copywriter or the copy editor got it
and went with it, and Nathan Genus, all of which
I approved.
Speaker 13 (38:09):
So you were okay with the change out. The sometimes
editors make changes and you're going, hmm, it's.
Speaker 11 (38:14):
Not quite their discussion.
Speaker 13 (38:17):
That's good. So what do you hope people will get
out of this?
Speaker 11 (38:20):
Some understand theel it schizophree is like that.
Speaker 13 (38:24):
Yes, and I can see that. So and I'm going
to read a portion of this, okay, four folks. It's
actually a very short one, so I might be able
to read the whole thing.
Speaker 11 (38:33):
It could if you want to, Okay.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
And so what you're hoping is that people get a
sense of what it's like to have schizophrenia.
Speaker 14 (38:42):
Yeah, okay, I'll they quite pay though, that haschizophrenia. The
two minds, one mind there was this gorgeous planet. Yeah,
the mind there was just Earth, you know, it was
it wasn't mind there was a planet, and in another
mind there was just Earth and that they sort of
(39:03):
argue back and forth. Wow, you might bea I It
was very ardentally.
Speaker 11 (39:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
So when you got on a sort of dumb question,
when you got onto the medication did xanadude just disappear
and you were left? Were you left with this planet
that you didn't like or were you able? Was the
the negative part about the planet, part of the delusion? No?
Speaker 14 (39:25):
I think I was so happy to be saying after
about thirty years rybe. Yeah, like I think I've probably
looked back on it a bit that get anything, was
very nice with it, but yet no hack when that
light it disappeared?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
And what was it like to have schizophrenia in amongst society?
Speaker 11 (39:45):
Very difficult? Yeah, very very difficult.
Speaker 13 (39:49):
K Can you explain a little bit about that.
Speaker 14 (39:52):
It's harder to work, it's harder to go to school,
it's harder to be socialized.
Speaker 11 (39:59):
It's the harder law.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
So, so did you experience stigma or was it just
that you were living a life, an internal life that
other people couldn't relate Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, or probably
both yeah yeah?
Speaker 13 (40:15):
So when did your schizophrenia start?
Speaker 14 (40:18):
When I was twenty years old, but I wasn't hospitalized
til I was twenty one, Okay, I there was sort
of like about six months before I went crazy and
b and then checked into a hospital.
Speaker 13 (40:30):
Right right? And w was that experience okay?
Speaker 5 (40:34):
For you?
Speaker 14 (40:34):
Okay, you'rble, no, I have It was nineteen seventy one,
and I have a very seriously, you rest right, and
then they end.
Speaker 11 (40:43):
Up giving the ECT treatment.
Speaker 13 (40:49):
Did you recover from the ECT treatment? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 11 (40:53):
That's good.
Speaker 10 (40:54):
My mood got a bit lighter.
Speaker 13 (40:56):
Yeah, you moved, got lighter. Did it affect your memory
or not?
Speaker 11 (41:00):
I can read? Yeah, okay, yeah, all.
Speaker 13 (41:03):
Right, that's good.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
But again, you can't remember what you can't remember, so
you're not gonna know whether or not you don't remember, right,
That's yeah, kind of how memory goes. So okay, well,
thank you Mary for chatting with me, and with your permission,
I will read the story for people.
Speaker 11 (41:18):
Okay, say okay.
Speaker 13 (41:19):
And we'll be right back, folks.
Speaker 8 (41:24):
It's Side Story on co Op Radio one hundred point
five FM. Listen and reason with Alshall every second Monday
from four to five pm. Lend your ears and thoughts
on topics such as humanitarian issues, social justice, activism, and homelessness, poverty,
(41:47):
injustice here at home, in Canada and around the globe.
This Side Story comes to you every second Monday from
forty five pm on co Op Radio one hundred one
five and them as promised.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Here is Mary Phyllis O'Toole's short story called Onzanatu Everything
Was Beautiful. December twenty eighth, two thousand and nine, Vancouver, BC,
A few days before the new decade began. I decided
to go through, sort and organize my small apartment, a
(42:32):
symbolic out with the old and in with the new.
I began with the chest of drawers that held my
handicrafts and handicraft supplies. As I removed the shelf paper
and shook the drawer to remove dust, a few pages
flew out from between the shelf lining and the bottom
of the drawer. Thinking it was just a handicraft to
(42:56):
do list, I was about to throw it out, but
took a quick glance at the top sheet of paper
yet read kill Me Please. After the shock of reading
the title, I realized that it was a poem I
had written late in nineteen seventy seven or early nineteen
seventy eight, over thirty years before. At the time I
(43:19):
wrote the poem, I suffered from schizophrenia, which made it
difficult for me to tell what was real and what
was not. In my mind at the time, there was
two worlds. The real world that everybody experienced and the
insane world known only to me. Both of my minds
were constantly battling for supremacy, debating with each other about
(43:44):
what was real and what was not. The first verse
of the poem reads, kill me please, I see visions
of a beautiful white palace and little children playing by
a sparkly fountain, and a lover to take me in
his arms. Back then, in my same world, there existed
(44:05):
a planet called Xanadu. In Xanadu, there was a beautiful
white palace with sparkling fountains and children playing by it,
and a potential suitor near by. On Earth there were slums,
children starving, a lack of clean water, and no boyfriend.
Xanadu was one planet, one country, and no wars, while
(44:27):
Earth had many countries and many wars. The second verse
of the poem goes on to say, these visions are gossamer,
glistening webs in my mind, taunting me while I live
my non existent drudge of a day. Every night I
do the books of the hotel. Every day, I sleep
(44:48):
while people laugh and play. Each night I awaken only
to add the figures again, while the glistening visions dance
in my head. Around the time I wrote the poem,
I was a night auditor in a hotel, working the
graveyard shift. My job was to count the cash in
(45:08):
each register at the end of the day, which was
supposed to equal the total of receipts from the restaurant
and hotel rooms, and then record it. The same cash
reconciliation was repeated every night. The third verse reads, I
cannot take the bottle of pills to smash those visions.
I can only struggle through the nights and days. While
(45:30):
those visions taunt and torture. I can kill myself so easily.
It is those visions I cannot kill, So kill me please.
The clash of the two minds. In one part of
my mind, I believe both Xanadu and Earth existed, and
the other part new only Earth. The vision of a
(45:52):
beautiful planet where I some day may go contrasted with
the reality of Earth and created a constant turmoil in
my mind. The thought that Xanadu existed made life on
Earth less palatable, less livable. Perhaps the best way to
understand that clash in my mind is the following analogy.
(46:14):
A mother whose child has been missing for years, believes
in one part of her mind her child will some
day walk through the door, while in the next minute
she imagines her child's mutilated body lying in the woods.
The contrast in her mind is terrible, and she desperately
needs closure. She needs to know one way or the
(46:36):
other what is real and what is not. And so
it is with me. I needed to know one way
or the other. Was Xanadu real or imaginary? A few
years later I got the answer I'd been searching for.
My perfect planet was an illusion. Three and one half
years after I wrote the poem, I would be involuntary
(47:00):
committed to a psychiatric ward, and the planet of Xanadu
would vanish into thin air. In nineteen ninety nine, I
was put on a new antipsychotic drug, and the positive
symptoms such as delusions, hallucinations, and thought disorder disappeared. Over
the next decade, the negative symptoms of schizophrenia, such as
(47:21):
apathy and social withdrawal, gradually faded away.
Speaker 5 (47:26):
One hundred point five means non commercial listener power to
community radio. One hundred point five means music, public affairs,
and arts programming.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
I wish I loved the human race I wish I
loved each city phase.
Speaker 5 (47:42):
You won't find anywhere else on the radio dial. One
hundred point five is not owned by a huge corporation.
We are owned and operated by people like you, by
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Find our complete program schedule at co dot org.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
You're listening to Rethreating Madness on Vancouver Call up Radio
CFR one hundred point five f M. I'm Bernadine Fox,
and now we are going to do something a bit unusual.
This song, Wren's song is not a part of Off
the Map, but it belongs here with these other artists
talking about mental health. I will warn folks that there
(48:22):
are some swear words in this song, and I debated
about whether or not to bleep them out or cut
the song up and only present a portion here on air,
and I decided against that for one reason. Ren is
an artist. His song is his art, and it would be,
in my opinion, morally wrong to change a person's art.
(48:45):
And then I thought of not including it altogether, but
I realized that my listeners are all adults who can
decide for themselves if they are okay in this day
and age, hearing a swear word or not, and if not,
then I would invite you to stop listening for the
next ten minutes. This is Hi Ran Byron.
Speaker 15 (49:46):
I love away, Hi Dan Rand, it's been a little
(50:09):
what did you miss me?
Speaker 11 (50:11):
Thought he buried me?
Speaker 10 (50:12):
Didn't risky because I always come back?
Speaker 11 (50:14):
Did down?
Speaker 10 (50:14):
You know that down your nor mom always brant and
you're pleased to see me. It's been weeks since we
spoke probah, I no, you need me.
Speaker 9 (50:20):
You're the sheep, and the shepherd not your place to
lead me or your place to be buying off the
hand that feeds me. Hi Brand, I've been taking some
time to be distant. I've been taking some time to
be still. I've been taking some time to be by
myself since my therapist told me I'm billed, and I've
been making some progress lately, and I've learned from the
coping skills, so I haven't really needed you much.
Speaker 11 (50:40):
Man.
Speaker 10 (50:41):
I think we need to just step back and chill.
Speaker 11 (50:43):
Ran. You sound one is saying, and I.
Speaker 9 (50:44):
Do you think that those doctors are really that's a
guide you've been through. There's a million times, just a billion, mind.
It is a perfect the always being lie to you. Okay,
take another pill boy around yourself in the sound don't
white noise. Follow this ten step program, rejoiced, all your
problems will be gone. Fucking dumb boy. This time is different, man,
Trust me. I feel like things might be falling in place,
and my music's being kind of doing bits too, like
(51:06):
I actually might do something great, and when I'm gone,
maybe I'll be remembered for doing something special with myself.
That's why you don't think that we should talk, man,
because when you're with me, it never seems to help.
You think that you can amputate me. I am you,
you are me, You are I, I am we We
are ones flitting too, that nice one.
Speaker 10 (51:22):
So you see, you gotta kill you if you want
to kill me.
Speaker 9 (51:25):
I'm not left up with dinner. I'm not scrapped on
the side. Oh, your music is driving, delusional guy? Where's
your top ten hit? Where's your interview with Oprah?
Speaker 11 (51:31):
Wow?
Speaker 9 (51:32):
Your Grammy's ran nowhere? Yeah, But my music's not commercial
like that. I never chase numbers, statistics or starts. I
never write hooks for the radio. They never even played me,
so why would I concern myself with that? But my
music is really connected and the people who find it respected.
And for me that's enough because this life's been tough,
so it gives me your purpose that I'm resting. Man,
(51:52):
you sound so pretentious, Ran, Your music is so self centered.
Speaker 10 (51:55):
No one wants to hear another song about how much
you hate yourself. Trust me, you should be so lucky.
Speaker 9 (52:00):
Having me inside you to guide you, remind you to
manage expectations, provide you perspective.
Speaker 10 (52:04):
Nothingly neglecting.
Speaker 11 (52:05):
I get it.
Speaker 10 (52:06):
You want to be a big deal next to me Hendrix.
Speaker 9 (52:08):
Forget Man, it's not like that. Man, it's just like that.
I'm inside you.
Speaker 3 (52:11):
You know it's not.
Speaker 9 (52:12):
Man, You're wrong when I write I'm along. Let me
break the fourth wall by acknowledging this song. N sits
down has a stroke of genius. He wants to write
a song that was not done previous about with this
subconscious emmanand did.
Speaker 10 (52:23):
It played on guitar plan B?
Speaker 11 (52:24):
Did it? Man?
Speaker 9 (52:25):
You the original and Ripe the pinnacle of yours? Because
that's just seeing other people's material, Ran, Mate, we've heard
it all before shows on the sea show.
Speaker 10 (52:33):
Fuck you.
Speaker 9 (52:34):
I don't need you.
Speaker 10 (52:35):
I don't need to hear this because I'm fine.
Speaker 9 (52:37):
By myself. I'm a genius and I will be great,
and I will make waves and I'll shake up the
whole world beneath it. That's right, speaking truth, your fucking
dot complex leaks out of you. It's refreshing to have
for you saying it, sell it down play. Music is
all about the creative process, and if people can find
something to relate to within that, then that's just a bonus.
Fuck you come and fucking kill you ran fucking kill me?
(52:58):
That have you rang gonna do it?
Speaker 10 (53:00):
What's we prove it? Who are you to done? My music?
Is that called the shots?
Speaker 3 (53:02):
That's choosing die?
Speaker 9 (53:03):
Yeah, I call the shots, and so I choose you survives.
I'll tie you up in knots when I locked you inside. Newsflash,
I was created at the dawn of creation. I am temptation.
I am the snake and eden. I am the reason
for treason, the heading or kings. I am sin with
(53:23):
no rhyme or reasons. On the morning, Lucifer Anti, cry
father of lies, my stuff a lees truth and the
blend of de sequl pretender, the vanished avenger, the righteous,
so random when standing in front of my soular a
clips my name is stage to your lips. So you
see I want bow to the will of immortal feequal
the normal. Do you want to kill me?
Speaker 10 (53:42):
I'm a turn of the morte.
Speaker 9 (53:43):
I live in every decision that cattle lies CHAOSO causes
the vision I live inside.
Speaker 10 (53:48):
That's the beginning of hands.
Speaker 16 (53:50):
I am you, You are me, I am you friends,
(54:11):
Hi Ran, I've been taking some time to be distant.
Speaker 9 (54:15):
I've been taking some time to be still. I've been
taking some time to be by myself. And I've spent
half my life ill. But just as sure as the
tide starts turning, just as sure as the night has dawned,
just as sure as the rainfall soon wants drive when
you stand in an eye of a storm.
Speaker 10 (54:32):
I was made to be tested and twisted. I was
made to be broken and beat. I was made by
his hand.
Speaker 9 (54:38):
It's a part of his plan that I stand on
my own two feet.
Speaker 10 (54:41):
And you know me. My will is eternal, and you
know me.
Speaker 9 (54:44):
You've met me before, face to face with a beast
that will rise from the east. And I'll settle on
the ocean floor and I go buy many names. Also,
some people know me as hope. Some people know me
as the voice that you hear when you loosen the
noose on the road. Can you know how I know
that I'll prosper because I stand here beside you today.
(55:05):
I have stood in the flames that cremated my brain,
and I didn't once lips your shape, So Kara and
the man I have become, when I sing from the
top of my.
Speaker 17 (55:14):
Lungs, that I won't retire role standing in your fire.
Speaker 10 (55:17):
Inspi adam to be strong. When I am.
Speaker 17 (55:20):
Gone, I will write in the music that I left
behind for ross, persistent, immortal like you, will reclaim it.
In difference, I, when.
Speaker 18 (56:25):
I was seventeen years old, I shouted out into an
empty room, into a blank canvas, that I would defeat
the forces of evil, and for the next ten years
of my life I suffered the consequences with autoimmunity, illness,
and psychosis. As I got older, I realized there were
no real winners and there were no real losers in
(56:49):
psychological warfare. But there were victims and there were students.
It wasn't David versus Goliath. It was a pendulum eternally
swaying from the start to the light. And the more
intensely that the light shone, the darker, the shadow with cast.
It was never really a battle for me to win.
(57:11):
It was an eternal dance. And like a dance, the
more rigid I became, the harder it got, the more
I cursed my clumsy footsteps, the more I struggled. So
I got older, and I learned to relax, and I
learned to soften, and that dance got easier. It is
this eternal dance that separates human beings from angels, from
(57:35):
demons from gods.
Speaker 3 (57:39):
And I must not forget.
Speaker 10 (57:41):
We must not forget.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
That we are human beings, and that's our show. My
thanks to Bene Dixon, Angela Gray, Mary O'Toole and Wren
for sharing their art with us. I'm hoping to interview
more of the writers from Off the Map in the
coming week. Yes, as always share we all rex sings
us into and out of our program each week. And
(58:05):
to you, our listeners, thank you for joining us today.
Stay safe out there. You've just listened to Rethreading Madness,
where we dare to change how we think about mental health.
We air live on Vancouver co Op Radio CFRI one
hundred point five FM every Tuesday at five pm or
online at co opradio dot org. If you have questions
(58:26):
or feedback about this program, I want to share your
story or have something to say to us, We want
to hear from you. You can reach us by email
rethreading Madness at co opradio dot org. This is Bernardine Fox.
We'll be back next week.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
Until then, we have ever been father gone? What the
hell I'm gonna do? W I can't see fine way.
Speaker 10 (58:57):
Under over?
Speaker 2 (59:03):
Just when I'm ready.
Speaker 19 (59:04):
To give up the fight, they are when we turn
out the lights in It's sorry, it's all right.
Speaker 2 (59:16):
Don't you really be alright? Why do I always believe
but when you're telling me everything's gonna be all right?
Speaker 3 (59:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (59:37):
Why don't I wonder how you know?
Speaker 10 (59:42):
Surely you don't have all of the facts.
Speaker 19 (59:48):
You could be just making it up.
Speaker 2 (59:53):
Why don't I ever think of that?
Speaker 10 (59:58):
It's kinda mess.
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