July 1, 2025 • 60 mins
Off the Map 2
In this episode of ReThreading Madness, Bernadine has the joy of talking to four more writers from Off the Map: Vancouver Writers with lived experience of mental health issues. Seema Shah was the powerhouse behind Off the Map. She along with Betsy Warland and Kate Bird compiled and edited 33 different authors to put together this anthology of stories and poems published by Bell Press. Seema is also one of the writers and she joins us today along Quin Martins, Sandra Yuen, and Merle Ginsburg to talk about what inspires them to write these pieces. Each one of them graces us with a reading of their work.
Music by Shari Ulrich & Jake Banfield
In this episode of ReThreading Madness, Bernadine has the joy of talking to four more writers from Off the Map: Vancouver Writers with lived experience of mental health issues. Seema Shah was the powerhouse behind Off the Map. She along with Betsy Warland and Kate Bird compiled and edited 33 different authors to put together this anthology of stories and poems published by Bell Press. Seema is also one of the writers and she joins us today along Quin Martins, Sandra Yuen, and Merle Ginsburg to talk about what inspires them to write these pieces. Each one of them graces us with a reading of their work.
Music by Shari Ulrich & Jake Banfield
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Vancouver co Op Radio cfr OH one
hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Musquam and Slighway Tooth
nations around Vancouver be seen. I'm your host, Bernadine Fox,
and this is this show that dares to change how
we think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
When have ever been fer.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
No?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
What the hell I'm gonna do when I can't sing
a fine way under over?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver called Radio cfr
OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernadine Fox and
today I have the pleasure of speaking with Sema Shaw.
Seema is a powerhouse. She is a self taught visual
artist and writer and alongside her own creative practice, Sema
is the organizer of Professional Artistic Growth Made Accessible and
(01:06):
Thank God. She wrote That Down for Me, which is
a project that offers free professional development opportunities to Vancouver
visual artists and writers who live with the experience of
mental health issues. She recently co edited Off the Map.
She's also an author in Off the Map, which is
about Vancouver writers with lived experience of mental health issues.
(01:27):
She did this alongside Betsy Worland and Kate Bird and
has been published this May in Belprest. So welcome, Seema.
Thank you for coming and chatting with us.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Thank you so much for having me and for calling
me a powerhouse.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Well you really are. I think that people who do
what you do often don't realize how much you're doing
for other people, and so I just want to make
that clear. I think it's important that we we celebrate
our heroes, and I think you're one of them. So
(02:05):
tell me about the professional Well, actually no, let's start
with you. Tell me about your own creative practice.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
It's kind of grown very organically. I mean it started
quite a few years ago, not really with intention, but
you know, after the onset of chronic illness and I
lived with both physical and mental health challenges and I
kind of took a detour in life and started off
(02:38):
more with writing. And that started off really with journaling
more than trying to write anything creatively. But over time
I became more interested in trying to craft some of
those experiences in a creative way, and my focus for
quite a few years was writing. And then I and
(03:03):
everything just sort of evolved naturally, and I had to
kind of a setback with my with my health and
I was in bed a lot, and I was unable
to write in the way that I had been writing
and really focus for long periods of time and kind
of try to work on a narrative that I could
follow through on. And so I I started to just
(03:27):
I challenge myself to this. I got this idea from
something I had seen and kind of modified it to
suit my life at the time, and it was it
was back. It was about a decade ago where I
I saw these this little these little tags that I
(03:52):
saw somebody who had they were doing this project that
this kind of personal challenge that they were going to
do something on this one of these little tags every
day for the year to comment. It was more around
doing some sort of positive affirmations. But I thought I
was going to do something quite different than that. But
just because I wasn't doing anything creative and I felt
(04:14):
like I just wanted to do something, but something that
felt manageable that I could commit to, and it was
just to do something creative on one of these kegs
every day, and it could be just writing a word,
it could be doing something like a little scribble or drawing,
and so that kind of started things off for me
(04:34):
in terms of starting to gravitate towards collage. I wasn't
doing really much visual at all prior to that, and
I really just started to focus on collage. And after
that year is when I really just kind of committed
(04:54):
to not even like again, not with intention, but it's
just like, I'm going to start working on more collages
because I really enjoyed it and everything I was working
and was so tiny, and it just kind of grew
from there. And it wasn't even that I decided, oh,
I'm gonna focus on digital art and not right I
didn't quite know. I was just letting things grow they
(05:19):
as they did and see where things went.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
That's wonderful. I think everybody has an artist inside of them,
even the ones that think that they can't draw a
straight line. And I teach drawing so in my off time.
But I but it really is an amazing tool for
even writing. I find is an amazing tool for helping
(05:44):
people put things together that they couldn't put together before.
It's there's something about it being non narrative. I think
that helps us to put our thoughts together. Perhaps I agree,
and you have a show coming up and we'll talk
about that at the end of interview. I want to
let people know that that's happening. You also started the
Professional Artistic Growth Made Accessible for people with that lived
(06:08):
experience of mental health challenges. Can you tell us a
little bit about that and how that came to be.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I can. That's a project that started in twenty twenty
two and it's funded. It has been funded by the
Consumer Initiative Fund, which is a Vancouver coastal health program
that funds projects that are proposed by individuals with lived
experience of mental health issues. And there are also projects
(06:38):
that need to be community based and benefiting people in
the community. So that's kind of where things began for me.
I did a smaller CIF, the acronym for Consumer Initiative Fund.
I did a smaller CIF project in twenty twenty one
that was a sharing and discussion group for visual artists
(07:01):
with lived experience of mental health issues, and that was
really kind of this kind of this bigger project called
Professional Artistic Growth Made Accessible kind of grew from that.
And the reason I was interested in doing something like
that was because I as an artist and writer that
(07:23):
with lived experience of mental health issues along with just
being a writer and artists. You know, both of those
experience experiences often in and of themselves are isolating, and
especially being self taught and not really being part of
a community or like even knowing how to go about
(07:45):
doing certain things. When I was starting, I was looking
for something that that I could learn from other artists,
and then I found that that was really valuable learning
from other artists as well as At the same time,
I had met Yuria Rice, who at the time was
(08:06):
the director of Kickstart Disability Arts and Culture, and I
had submitted work for a show. Like I had known him,
but I had kind of reconnected with him. I knew
I met him when he was the director back in
twenty nineteen when I had worked in a show and
he was the curator, and I met him when I
dropped my work off there, and that was my first
(08:27):
kind of connection with him, and really I felt an
immediate connection with him. But then in twenty twenty he
opened Outsiders and Others, which is a gallery in Vancouver,
and I connected with him there and volunteered at the gallery,
so I was working with him both as an artist
in some of the shows there, as well as volunteering
(08:50):
and learning a lot from him, and he's become and
was a mentor then and has continued to be a
mentor for me and many other artists as well. I
was kind of both of those experiences have been part
of this group project in twenty twenty one, as well
as working with Uri. I thought like, oh, that it
(09:12):
would be great if there was a way to combine
all of this and you know, see if Ury might
be willing to partner with me on creating something that,
you know, if I could get some funding through the
Consumer Initiative Fund where he could he could also you know,
his expertise could be accessed by other people in the
(09:34):
community as well, and so he was very open and
interested in doing that. And so the project started with
visual art and he did someone on one consults and
the two of us CO facilitated some workshops and those
were around professional development because I think we both in
different capacities, but both were really interested in that, especially
(09:57):
around mental health and really how work by artists with
lived experience of mental health issues is. You know, there's
still stigma and how it's perceived and really from the
group I was doing. Also recognizing that there's a lot
of other artists out there who are very serious about
(10:18):
their art and getting it out in the world and
having it be seen and you know, moving forward in
their careers as artists. So all of that kind of
came together, and when we co facilitated, you know, the
idea was bringing expertise and lived experience like URI's professional expertise,
these years of you know, working as a gallerist and curator,
(10:41):
and my experience as an artist with lived experience of
mental health issues, you know, bringing those together and having
you know, the opportunity for artists in the community to
meet each other as well and learn from each other.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yes. Important. It's one of the most important things I
think in life is to find people who are a
community you belong to, even if it's only you belong
to part of it or belong to it in one
part of your life. There's such an incredible benefit, healing
benefit to being around people that reflect who you are
(11:22):
back to you. And so often I find being a
visual artist myself, that the world out there looks at
people who have mental health challenges who do art as
if it's therapy, not as if it's serious art, even
though we come from you know, historically from you know,
many many artists who had mental health challenges and that's
(11:44):
what made their art so great. Even in this today,
in our world today, we are often seen as people
who are just doing therapy and it's not it's not
serious art. It's exactly it's an expressive art and so
therefore not something that should be taken seriously within the
the whole of the art world. And it's just not true.
(12:07):
People with mental health challenges make incredible art, just incredible.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
I think that was like a frustration for me, you know,
when I was trying to really pursue my art. I
got to the point and yeah, that's just that having
one's art always kind of viewed through a different lens
than art more generally.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
So yeah, yeah, And I remember Jeff McMurtry also saying
that about people who were in wheelchairs, that it was
still it was also it was all kind of considered
rehab and it was you know, that was a long
time ago, Jeff was saying that. So I'm hoping we're
changing that, but who knows. So Professional Artistic Growth Made
(12:50):
Accessible was a project that you did that provided professional
assistance and mentoring to people who were artists with livic
experience of ment How does that kind of sum it up?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah, I mean I think it still exists as a
project and it's growing and evolved, and I think, like
with most things that I've worked on with my own
art and as part of this project, it's it's just
seeing like how what the need seems to be and
(13:25):
where interest lies and how things just naturally evolve over time.
So for the first year it was just visual art
and the accessible part that like in terms of professional
artistic growth made accessible. The accessible is partly that all
the opportunities are free, but also, you know, when I
(13:47):
think about accessible, I think about for me, when I
was starting to do visual art and I had all
these questions and it's very daunting, like even thinking about
trying to at the point where I was thinking of
maybe I want to submit my work somewhere, and how
do I go about doing this and writing an artist
statement all these things that are very daunting, and I
(14:11):
was looking for somebody to help me with that because
I wasn't part of any art community and I didn't
I'm not trained. So I think the accessible part was
especially with having this really fortunate connection with Uri that
I'm so grateful for. But you know, having this project,
(14:36):
have consults with Yuri and these workshops as something that's
putting that out there is something. During that first year
of the project, I think there were two things. One
was that Uri and I both saw that there there
was a need that was based upon the fact that
(14:58):
you know, the consults and the workshops filled up right
away and we had wait lists for all the activities,
which was really it was great. It was for us,
like we were really excited that there seemed to be
the interest in what was being offered, and the feedback was,
you know, it was very positive and encouraged us to
(15:19):
continue with it. And there was also interest from the
community in you know, as inquiring whether these opportunities were
available for writers as well, or if we were going
to be offering similar opportunities for writers. And at that
point it was just focused on there's art. But that's
(15:39):
when kind of the idea just you know again, it's
because it presented itself as something that people might be
interested in that we I was thinking like, how can
this and how can this expand to include writing as well?
And that's when I kind of similar to approaching URI,
(16:02):
I approached Betsy Warland, who had been my writing mentor,
and asked her, if you know, if she wanted to
and would be interested and open and available to do
something similar as what I had been doing with Uri
and partner in that way to offer opportunities for writers.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And out of that came off the map.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, gradually it did. I mean initially
it was Betsy offered consults and then some workshops and
really seeing that there was a lot of writing that
was very unique but just also just really wonderful writing
(16:47):
by the writers she was working with one on one
and in the workshops, and seeing that many of these
writers had never been published before, thinking like we had
talked about it, and even like once the idea of
writing being part of the project came about, I was thinking,
(17:09):
what it would be really great if there was a
way that there could be something parallel to an art exhibition.
The first year of the project year and I co
curated to exhibitions as part of the project that were
exhibitions that were at outsiders and others. So in the
same way, it was like, would there be a way
(17:31):
and would there be the interest because even in the
first year, I think we were not sure how many
submissions we'd get for the art for the call for artists,
and we were pleasantly surprised not only by the number
but the quality of submissions, and we ended up making
it to exhibitions the first The idea initially was one
(17:54):
or actually was to have Yeah it doesn't matter, but
we had enough calls during that first year, but it
was that worked out really well.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And how many how many artists are in off the map?
How many writers artists?
Speaker 3 (18:10):
There are thirty three in total, Yeah, including Kate Bird
who's one of the other editors, and myself.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Okay, and you have a story and here called Waiting
for the Greenhouse Effect, I do, yes, no chance you
can read us a portion of that.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I can, so just to give it a little bit
of context. The piece of mind that's in the anthology
is it's about it's a creative nonfiction piece about my
experience at an impatient creative arts therapy. And for this story,
I've called it meadow Side. And just a really brief
(18:52):
definition I guess of horticultural therapy is a therapeutic modality
that uses gardening and plants to promote health and well being.
Horticultural therapy wasn't what I had envisioned. It didn't seem
much like a horticultural experience, nor was it particularly therapeutic.
(19:16):
Session number one aroma therapy. I realize aroma therapy uses
essential oils derived from plants, but calling it horticultural therapy
seemed like a bit of a stretch. And it wasn't
like we spent the session making essential oils. The instructor
just passed around vials of different oils, which we sniffed
(19:36):
as he explained their healing properties. He also showed us
a few meadow side made products, such as lotions and
spritzers that contained various combinations of essential oils. We didn't
make any of these concoctions, although we were given a
few recipes to make at home. However, we could buy
(19:56):
them directly from the horticulture department if we wanted to
shell out twenty dollars for a small container. After learning
about these products, we moved on to the next step,
giving each other lengthy, step by step hand massages using
meadow sided hand cream. As we sat across the narrow
(20:17):
table from each other, hand in hand, curious passerby stopped
and stared down at us from a large window that
overlooked the greenhouse. They were probably as confused as we were.
Session number two herbal Vinegars. Although we used herbs in
our second session, it seemed more like a cooking class
(20:38):
than anything else. The entire session was dedicated to making
our very own bottle of herbal vinegar. The measured out
herbs had already been laid out in an organized fashion
on a paper place mat in front of each vinegar maker.
We were given a tall bottle into which we placed
each herb in the order given by the instructor. After
(20:59):
this in the star ingredient, and sealed the bottle shut.
I did not find this very therapeutic. We then had
two options, either spend fifteen dollars and by the vinegar
we just made, or leave it behind to be sold.
At this point I sensed a pattern emanating from Meadowside's greenhouse.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah, that's a very telling story. Thank you for that.
On its surface, it looks like it's just a story
about gardening and therapy, but the undertone of it is
actually kind of sinister is the word I want to use.
It reminds me of people being used who go to
(21:45):
developmental disability, not that I know of any of that
are happening, but I've seen and heard about it that
are going to a developmental disability something or other and
they're made to make key chains that are then sold
for the benefit not of them, but of somebody else.
And to me, that sinister. It's very sinister. And it
(22:08):
treats people as workers as opposed to somebody trying to heal.
It's a very different thing. Sima, thank you for coming
and chatting with us. I have appreciated getting to know you,
and I hope that I continue to know you as
you move along and doing all the work that you're
doing that is of benefit to so many other people.
(22:28):
So thank you.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Thank you so much for having me on your show.
I really appreciate it, and for your interest in the
work the project as well as the anthology.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah. Well the anthology is great and I encourage people
to go find it. It's called Off the Map Vancouver
Writers with lived experience of mental health issues. It's edited
by as Sema said, Betsy Warland, Kate Bird and herself,
and you can get it through Bell Press, which is
Bell Press Books All one dot com. So thank you, Cina,
thank you, You're welcome. Okay, we'll be right back, folks.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Air Tana yup, QUI get euons Queen sna Hi, everybody.
My name is Quigate Ywon's I'm a member of the
Squamish Nation and the Yagoalanis Klan of the Hyda Nation.
You're listening to co Op Radio CFRO O one hundred
point five FM. We live, work play and broadcast from
the traditional ancestral and unseeded territories of the Musquiam, Squamish
(23:22):
and Slave Tooth nations.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver cop Radio cfr
O one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox and
right now have the pleasure of speaking with Sandra Ewan,
who's actually been on the show before. Sandra is a
visual artist, a musician and a writer and has probably
been a guest maybe about three times. I think maybe more.
(23:44):
I think actually I think it's more than that anyway.
And you are one of the authors and off the
map the anthology done out of Vancouver, BC, here with
people with lived experience, and so I just wanted to
talk to you about the experience of writing. I know
that you've written before. You have a couple other books out.
Speaker 5 (24:03):
Yeah, I have a memoir called My Schizophonic Life, Chopped Shtick,
a humorous novel, and another said novels from New York
to Vancouver's Stories on the Fly.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Stories on the Fly. That sounds like, so those are a
bunch of short stories.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Yeah, three novels I wrote with a fellow in New
York long distance.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Wow, that sounds actually fascinating. And now you have several
poems in Off the Map. So tell me about the
experience of writing.
Speaker 5 (24:31):
Yeah, So when I started writing, like my memori was,
was written in two thousand and nine, twenty ten, and
I think my writing has really evolved since then. I
think I've gone through a lot more life experience and
the last few years been a lot of years transitions,
So the writing has really changed. And I found that
moving to prose poetry was a real shift for me,
(24:54):
and it was more, you know, we yet end up
big story arc. It just had to be really kind
of direct and really kind of just play and that
kind of thing, and just with words, and we're drawing
a lot from life experience. Had a magic typewriter and
all druging to like type Dona was great. That helped
me create some great work. And then yeah, so as
I approach this, Yeah, so anyway, I'm supposed to be
(25:18):
kind of the book this fall on my own, but
I think the whole writing thing is has really evolved
a lot, and it's also the way of journaling as well.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
How does your writing relate to your visual arts and
your music?
Speaker 5 (25:31):
Oh wow? Yeah, So I think creativity is sort of
an umbrella really for what I do in my life.
I think I've meant other artists who have moved to
music or moved to other forms of creativity just because
it's it's like how we create people live, right, It's
like it's not limited to one one field, right, And
(25:52):
you know, it could be like how you cook, how
you read your furniture, you know, how you dress. It
could be all those things. And I think it's really about,
like it's a lot about self expression. For me, it's
a lot about going back to square one, Like why
am I doing this? Because I need to like just
let it out, end up, go through drumming or let
(26:14):
out through literature or rejournaling or through my art. So
it's really about actually, you know, just mirroring myself and
just like drawing from all over, like from what I
hear in a conversation, what I see on a wall,
or what I hear in the news. You know, anything
that kind of can impact me will come through in
the art, for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Do you find that these different creative outlets give you
a different language almost, and that you can express some
things through writing that you can't express through music, or
some things through music that you can't express in visual art.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
Oh, definitely. I think, for example, music is very intuitive,
like I don't really like memorize or I don't really
script it. It's just like it's just like hearing the
music and responding to It's very kind of intuitive. The
writing is more like kind of like automatic writing, so
a lot of just you know, putting it down on
(27:10):
paper and not a lot of editing or rhyming or
thing about meter. It's just words flowing. Even the sounds
of words could be important. Whereas the art was more planned.
The art was more like you know, when I do
by houseporks, it's more about exactness and like recreating what
I'm seeing with the grid system and you know, being
very precise and very exactly like reflecting what I'm seeing.
(27:35):
The florals I did are more a bit more expressive,
but even then I was really drawing from what I
was seeing. That are more and more, maybe more literal
than the music.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
And of course you wrote the book My Schizophrenic Life.
But the question I ask people, because this is a
book about lived experience, how does your mental health tie
into what you wrote in the book or does it
my memoir?
Speaker 6 (28:00):
Know the atmatic that yeah, okay, so yeah, so the
whole book is about you know, people, people's experience who
have dealt with mental illness. And I would say, you know,
I wrote one poem, Turmoil is about you know, like
anything that can go wrong can go wrong, you know,
like everything's getting worse and worse, and at the end,
(28:20):
you know it's you know then you're just it's just.
Speaker 5 (28:23):
Too much, you know. But some of them are Some
of the poems might be more positive, like, for example,
Shry like the Morning Sun, it's more of a very
more optimistic, more hopeful type of poem, whereas something like
dramatization of the love story over and over is kind
of a bit more dark. So I think it features
(28:45):
different parts of my moods different parts of you know,
the combination we're all, you know, we're all living like
complicated beings. So it's it's like expression of each part
of my day or my week, or how I'm feeling
when I'm writing. And I found I did write another
piece called The Next Size in Drumming, and that's more
about It's about humors too, but it's really about the
(29:08):
complicatedness of drumming and how it's like so intuitive, but
it's so like, it's so.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Hard.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
It was hard for me to develop as a drummer
because of my schizophrenia and my lack of coordination and
just trying to be left handed on a right handed
kind of setup. So it really took me a lot
to learn how to drum. And it's sort of expressed
in that piece how complicated drumming really is. I didn't
realize it until I got into it.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I like what you're saying, because really what you are
when you talk about how your mental health has anything
to do with your writing, you are, in fact saying
exactly what anybody says who is a writer who doesn't
have a mental health challenge. And it proves the point
that I kind of talked with a seema about around
how art who have mental health challenges should be seen
(30:02):
as artists and not as people who are doing art
as part of their therapy, because their work is on
par with anybody else and done for exactly the same reasons,
because everybody, even any writer out there, could make art
for exactly the same reason you talked about. Can you
read on one of your poems for us?
Speaker 5 (30:19):
Sure? Which try would you like me to read?
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Well, let me see here. I actually like turmoil. I
don't know why. It seems maybe a bit pessimistic of
me to say that, but I just loved it so
and it is We have days exactly like that. So
if you can, that would be great.
Speaker 5 (30:40):
Thank you very much. Here it is turmoil. Turmoil is
when you're on the highway fifty miles from nowhere and
the car overheats, your phone is dead. You walk for
three hours in the dark, find a motel with no
vacant see restaurants are closed, run out of cigarettes, starts
(31:07):
to rain, shoes soaked through, turns to sleep. You fall
in the mud, can't get up. No cops, no ablets,
no one for miles. You see a glow in the distance.
It gets closer a white sedan pulls out in a
(31:27):
tight dress of perfume. Woman the lights smiles and extends
her gloved hand. You reach out instead. She pockets your wallet,
nods and drives off. That's turnoil.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And indeed it is, isn't it. It's very descriptive of
I think anybody who's gone through one of those times
where everything that could go wrong did go wrong, and
you just have to get up the next day and
start over. Yeah, it doesn't. Thank you, Sandra for coming
and chatting with us. I've appreciated it.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
Thank you so much, Brittany.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
You're welcome and we'll be right back. Folks.
Speaker 7 (32:12):
Oh you hey, this A lot of people call this
rock and roll.
Speaker 8 (32:19):
Swings.
Speaker 9 (32:21):
This is going the let's see with the left.
Speaker 7 (32:24):
Hand, yeah, and the right hand fits in with something
like this. Yeah, here we going now.
Speaker 10 (32:31):
Yeah, it's called rock and roll, and you can hear
all about it on Rock Talk Discover the Hidden but
Enchanting side of the music, Friday mornings at nine o'clock.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Oh if that isn't enchanting, nothing is.
Speaker 7 (32:49):
Go ahead, Jess dance go crazy.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on bank of a cop
radios y f R one five Bernardine Fluxen. Today I
have the pleasure of speaking with Quinn Martin's Quinn. I
think you and I have known each other for a
long time. I can't I asked Mary O'Toole the same
question in the last interview and it was it turned
out it was like seventeen years. So I don't know
(33:16):
how long you and I have known each other, but
it has been a long time. You are one of
the writers in Off the Map, the new anthology that's
just out in May of twenty twenty five, which is
Vancouver writers with lived experience of mental health issues, and
it's edited by Betsy Warlan, se Mishaw and Kate Bird.
(33:36):
How did you come to be writing this story and
or writing? And maybe actually you can start by telling
us a little bit about who you are other than
that you know me.
Speaker 7 (33:46):
I'm based in East Vancouver and primarily I'm I identify
as a visual artist, but recently I've also been writing.
I guess I started getting into writing when I was
a student at Emily Carr and I was doing kind
of academic writing and that sort of thing, and then this,
(34:08):
this is my first sort of attempt at writing fiction,
And so what I've written for the the anthology is
a short story and it's a science fiction kind of
psychological thriller type story.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Well, if this is your first attempt at writing us
a narrative of fiction, I mean I read it as
a great little story. So well done.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
What prompted you to write this story for this anthology?
Speaker 7 (34:45):
So I had this idea about this kind of struggling
artist and he's he's a street photographer with an anxiety disorder,
and so it was a way to sort of explore
(35:05):
like ideas related to like current issues going on around
like privacy and like social media and sort of living
in a digital age and sort of concerns that we
have these days around AI and stuff. And so it
was a way for me to explore those themes but
(35:29):
also to like to explore some of my struggles with
anxiety through this character. And so I was able to
really kind of channel my anxieties into this character, Philip Morgan,
who's the protagonist of the story. It's kind of like
(35:50):
a therapeutic experience for me.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
And that was what I was just about to get through,
which is that not that writing is, you know, is
therapeutic just because you have a mental health challenge or whatever,
but because I find that when I write, I actually
put pieces together that I couldn't before. It's everything is
in your head and not once you get it down
on piece of paper, you can start to see the
(36:15):
patterns and organize that information. In another way, Did it
help you with your anxiety?
Speaker 7 (36:22):
Yes, it did because I was able to use humor
in the story, and so I can like sort of
poke some fun at this character who's he's having a
hard time, and some of some of the things he's
going through are kind of comical, and so it's sort
of like poking fun at myself a little bit. And
(36:44):
so that that was that was nice for it to
be able to do that.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
And this is the first time you've published I take
it if this is your first non fiction yeah, fiction
fictional piece. Right, How did you find the process of editing?
Speaker 7 (37:06):
So? I edited closely with one of the editors, Seema Shaw,
and it was a really good experience. We had to
do like quite a lot of like work back and
forth on the story too, like fine tune it. But
like she was, she was excellent to work with and
(37:27):
just was a real pleasure for me to work with her.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Oh that's good. So it doesn't sound like as you
were working you had you had to make concessions or
compromises that actually took stuff out of your story, which
can sometimes happen with an editors.
Speaker 7 (37:42):
Yeah, it wasn't always an easy process, but like she
was really good at explaining, like her her thoughts around
suggestions she was making.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Well, that's great.
Speaker 7 (37:56):
At first, maybe I thought, oh, maybe I wanted it
to be this way not that way. But through talking
things through with her, was like came to a consensus
how to have the story progress.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
That's great, that's great. Can you read us a part
of your story?
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (38:20):
I can. Okay, So the story is called eye Tap.
Philip Morgan stands in his darkroom, inspecting his freshly developed
prints that hang from clothes pins. The pungent gasoline like
(38:40):
smell of the developing chemicals fills the air, and the
aner red safe light cassi warm glow. The darkroom silence
is the sanctuary grounding him in the present moment. A
rarity among photographers today, Philip insists on shooting exclusively in film.
For him, this is more than a preference, It is
(39:02):
a vital part of his artistic philosophy. He feels the
medium captures moments with a depth and richness that digital
photography can never match, and like an other analog photography enthusiasts,
he believes in the value of the artifact, having something
real in his hands to hold. As a street photographer
(39:23):
with an anxiety disorder, Philip's routine consists of engaging with
the world in short bursts and then retreating to his
cocoon in his dark room to find solace from the
external chaos. Today, however, even a safe space doesn't feel safe.
Philip's thoughts keep returning to this morning's video call with
(39:44):
his daughter Iris. Like most twenty four year olds these days,
Iris is a whiz with anything tech related. Eager to
support her dad's career, she constantly encourages him to promote
his work online, but Philip worries about losing creative control
over his images. Not surprisingly, he was completely caught off
(40:05):
guard by Irus' call this morning. So, Dad, you finally
did it. You decided to upload your photos to the internet.
What are you talking about those prints you showed me
last weekend in your dark room? I saw them posted
on eye tap. What the fuck is zye tap It's
(40:25):
a new social media app. He could not believe his
eyes when I was shared her screen to show him
his unedited photos posted online for all the world to see.
This can't be happening, Philip cried out, his sense of
reality unraveling. I haven't even scanned the negatives. I feel
like a character in one of those dystopian science fiction
(40:48):
stories by that Vancouver author whose name I can never remember.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
That's a wonderful Quinn. And then it's a great beginning
because it may you want to finish reading the story.
So I hope people will go out and get this
book and be able to finish reading that story. So
thank you, Quinn. While I have you on here, can
you talk a little bit about your visual art as well.
Speaker 7 (41:20):
So I like to use humor in my work, and
so in this story too, I using humor, and I
use a lot of texts in my work and started
doing have mostly background is doing acrylic painting, but also
(41:40):
work in collage and photography, and so yeah, that's where
my focus is. I also do a lot of work
with with found images and found objects.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, that's one of my favorite things to do, is
to work with found objects, although I will tell you
not many people understand it. I don't know what your
studio looks like, but mine looks like I hoarde garbage.
You have all this stuff that you know is really exciting,
but other people see it as a piece of rusty metal.
So it is a bit of a problem. But you
(42:19):
do more than that because you're also a part of
the Connection Salon and we've had Pierre Lecner on to
talk about the Connection Salon here in Vancouver, And you're
doing a lot of work with people who are outsiders
and you know, so how long have you been doing that?
Speaker 9 (42:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (42:37):
So well, I have been working with the Connection Salan
collective for about four years, and then before that I
was a collective member with Gallery Gotshet, and so for
a long time I've kind of sort of sort of
(43:00):
use my journey with mental health and substance used as
a kind of inspiration, you know, for my artwork, and
you know, doing that and even like you know, even
contributing to the scientology, there is the fear of like
stigma that comes associated with that with kind of outing
(43:23):
yourself as being someone with history with mental health difficulties. Right, Well,
for me, it's it was really kind of worth it,
kind of the opportunity to get my work published.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
And well that's great. Well, thank you Quinn, and thanks
for coming and chatting with me and for reading part
of your short story for us here on your threading
Madness and we'll be right back.
Speaker 11 (43:50):
Folks joined genergie with guest hosts every Monday from one
to two point thirty in the afternoon.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
So, in terms of life, When.
Speaker 11 (44:06):
Spirit Whispers is where we explore treaties in BC residential school, stories,
foster care, and ideas about truth and reconciliation in Canada,
plus news on the news.
Speaker 12 (44:17):
See you say you'll stop, but one you listen to
me because you might believe what you haven't seen and
what you don't believe that.
Speaker 5 (44:24):
What makes the great.
Speaker 11 (44:26):
Don't miss this great opportunity to become familiar with your
first Nations people and the very pride that has kept
us strong. When Spirit Whispers Mondays at one pm.
Speaker 12 (44:36):
Then like a trip sack, do.
Speaker 9 (44:39):
I catch you what I'm saying?
Speaker 12 (44:40):
Like a live more than you and more than me,
And there's plenty more online if you don't believe it.
If you need some more convincing, let'spend there not alone
in a record at school buildings and terms of life.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
cfr O one hundred point five f M. I'm Bernardine Fox.
Rethreading Madness is coming up to its sixth anniversary of
being on air. We produce an air each week out
of cfr O one hundred point five f M on
the unseated traditional territory of the Squamish, Muscriham and Slighway
(45:17):
Tooth nations around Vancouver. Bc RTM was one of the
first radio programs to focus on mental health issues here
in Canada, in an area swamped with statements from therapists
rooted in colonial ideas about mental health and trained in
the d s. M rt M works to ensure that
the voices of those with lived experience have agency and
(45:39):
opportunity to define who they are and what is true
for them who listens to us. Beyond those with lived experience,
our audience includes their friends and partners, along with therapists, counselors,
and students of psychology. Since twenty twenty two, all of
our programs have been uploaded to the Mental Health Radio
Network and can be downloaded from all podcast platforms, so
(46:02):
if this show was of interest to you, you might
find the rest of our programs informative as well. You
can find them by searching for rethreading Madness wherever you
listen to your podcast.
Speaker 13 (46:28):
I'm a little steady, I'm a lost in size in
my heart stays heavy. I don't say what's on my
prime and I think it's starting a show? Can you
(46:48):
tell them? Losing control?
Speaker 14 (46:52):
You feel like I'm broken to so many pieces.
Speaker 9 (46:55):
Don't know if you can fix me.
Speaker 14 (47:00):
Can't somebody take this paince Cojos not the same? I'm
so losty confused, don't know what else to do?
Speaker 9 (47:12):
Can you help me?
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Can you help me?
Speaker 9 (47:16):
Can't somebody take this pain?
Speaker 8 (47:20):
I just want to change. I'm so done trying to
prove that I know way to move.
Speaker 9 (47:29):
God have me? Can you have me?
Speaker 14 (47:34):
Because I've tried all the smoking, man, the drinking, wasting time. Yeah,
I've tried all the running, hiding from.
Speaker 9 (47:41):
The paint inside. I can't lie broken heartest water I
find so I know that I can't help me.
Speaker 14 (47:49):
Can't somebody take this pain?
Speaker 9 (47:53):
Cochose not the same?
Speaker 14 (47:57):
I'm so lontin Confusedn't what else to do.
Speaker 9 (48:01):
Can you help me? Can you have me? Can't somebody
take this pain? I just want to change.
Speaker 8 (48:11):
I'm so done trying to prove that a no way
to move?
Speaker 9 (48:18):
God? Have me? Can you have.
Speaker 15 (48:22):
Me?
Speaker 9 (48:24):
Can you have me? O? Can you have me? Can
you have me? Can you help me? Take this pain?
Speaker 8 (48:42):
Not the same, there's some lufs confused, don't know what
to do?
Speaker 9 (48:50):
Can you have me? Can you have me? Can't somebody
take this pain? I just want to share.
Speaker 8 (49:02):
Unseldun, trying to approve that a know way to move?
God till you hep me.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
You're listening to re Threading Madness on Vancouver Call Up
Radio cfr OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine
Fox and right now I'm with Merle Ginsberg, who is
a writer in Off the Map Vancouver Writers with Lived
Experience of Mental health issues that was edited by Betsy
Worland and Sema Shaw and Kate Bird. Merle has worked
(49:33):
in and around mental health for many, many years, but
she's also written about mental health in columns in newspapers
and now in the book Off the Map. So welcome Merle,
thanks for coming, Thank.
Speaker 16 (49:47):
You, Bertnan Dean. It's a pleasure to be here?
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Tell us what inspired you to write this particular poem,
and the one in off the map is called The Cost.
That's right.
Speaker 16 (50:00):
Well, I actually worked with an express of arts therapist
and we work through my writing. So I had started
The Cost maybe six months ago or longer, and we
talked a fair bit about it and I just you know,
added to it and did a little bit of editing.
(50:22):
I think the purpose of it was because this this
illness manic depression is very hard to describe to people,
anyone and everyone. And it's also for me what it
felt like when I felt a shift of mood or
(50:42):
when I was when I was nervous, and when I
felt frightened, because this illness is very big. So this
is what happened. I just I just wrote down how
I felt and used metaphors, and uh, it just took
one life of its own. Some of them that a force,
(51:03):
are based on dreams. Some of the things are just
you know, how I felt, and I just put the
words to paper.
Speaker 5 (51:11):
So that's how it started.
Speaker 16 (51:13):
And yeah, I hope people get some kind of understanding
from it of what it's like to live with illness.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Does writing solve something for you that you don't get
somewhere else, don't.
Speaker 16 (51:30):
I mean, I think for me, it's a very powerful
way of expressing yourself and providing some comfort and again understanding.
And I've had manic depression for so long as forty
years and I'm still not sure sometimes of how I'm
feeling and how it's affecting myself and others that it
(51:55):
just helps for me this kind of expression, Yes, very powerful.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
As a result, I agree, I write, and I am
able to put things together when I write that I
can't put together any other form of creative activity ever,
not talking to people, not art, not dance, if I
try and do that, because I am disabled, so it
(52:24):
makes it a little harder. But writing settles into my
brain in a way that allows me to put things
together that I haven't been able to do before. So
can you tell us a little bit about the poem
that you read at the book launch, of which I
absolutely adored And I don't usually like poems, just so
(52:47):
you know how much that means when I say I
absolutely adored your poem. It was just great and it
really pulled me in and I wanted to hear the
next line and the next line in the next line.
So can you is there anything else that you want
to say about the poem or can you give us
more about the poem before you read it, or can
you just read? What would you like?
Speaker 16 (53:09):
I think that I think that, I mean, I've shared
how it came about and the metaphors and what my
wish is for others who read it or hear it.
So I think that probably this is a good time
to read. And what I'll do is read the introduction
(53:33):
that will just flow into the poem.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Great, perfect, thank you, Okay, okay, So.
Speaker 16 (53:42):
This would be the cost and the introduction. I've lived
with manic depression for many years. I've learned that it
reads isolation and pain. I'm not a stranger to either.
I feel compelled to tell you that it has also
enriched my life with a profound beauty and sensitivity that
(54:06):
I wouldn't have had otherwise. The title of my poem
is the Cost Born without a layer of skin. I
have scarlet red skin. It glistens, it stings, it's raw,
(54:26):
it's smoky fishnet. My skin is fishnet, like the diamond
shaped stockings. Energy, the color black storms through me. It's
not mine, but it becomes mine. It's a living furnace
that doesn't have time to brew. It's on fire, ready
(54:51):
to explode. There is impossible strength. It's a plane slowly
climbing to the fore zone. It has no compass, no boundaries.
It shakes with powers silently. It's the grizzly bear facing me,
(55:12):
his paws over my living room ledge. I look to
the other ledge. He's waiting for me with long, perfect
and of sen claws. It's the tiny birds. Their bodies
are puffy, their feathers are sticky, their eyes are pin heads,
(55:32):
their beaks are open because they can't breathe. It's the
rolling thunder in the distance. There's no lightning. It doesn't
need an introduction. It's the rolling thunder in the distance
coming from me.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
And that is just as beautiful as when I heard
you read it at the book launch. One of the
lines in it that I love, but I love it
more and I hear you say it, is that it
has no compass, no boundaries, It shakes with power silently.
It's very powerful statement. Yes, yes, so thanks for coming
(56:12):
and chatting with us about your poem. And I'm hoping
lots of people are able to find this book and
get it and read it because it has I think
thirty four writers in it, all talking about mental health. Yes,
so very powerful book. So thank you, Morrol, and we'll
be right back forks. Oh you're welcome. You're welcome, and
(56:33):
we'll be right back folks. And that's our show. My
thanks to Sema Shaw, Quinn Martin, Sandra Yuan, and Meryl
Ginsburg for sharing their writing with us. Music today was
by Sherry Alrick and Jake Banfield. And to you our listeners,
thank you for joining us today. Stay safe out there.
You've just listened to Rethreading Madness, where we dare to
(56:54):
change how we think about mental health. We air live
on Vancouver co Op Radio CFR two point five FM
every Tuesday at five pm, or online at co opradio
dot org. If you have questions or feedback about this program,
we want to share your story or have something to
say to us, we want to hear from you. You
can reach us by email Rethreading Madness at co opradio
(57:17):
dot org. This is Bernardine Fox. We'll be back next week.
Speaker 2 (57:21):
Until then, when I've ever been further, no, what the
hell I'm gonna do when I can't seem to find
my way under over to just want I'm ready to
(57:45):
give the they you are, Will we turn out the
lights in inside? It's all right, go to will be
all right?
Speaker 9 (58:02):
Why do I always believe but when you're.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
Tell me everything's gonna be all right? Yeah, Why don't
I wonder how you know?
Speaker 9 (58:23):
Surely you don't have all of the facts. You could be.
Speaker 5 (58:29):
Just making it up.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
Why don't I ever think of that? Some God imagine
in the words that you read.
Speaker 15 (58:44):
Saying, baby, take it from me, it's all right, it's
all right, don't too well, really be alright?
Speaker 9 (58:57):
Why do I always believe then when you.
Speaker 15 (59:01):
Tell everything's gonna be afray, everything's gonna be aray.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
Than anyone else. It's such a cliche, just words people
say to be nice somehow, and nice far from you.
I'm convinced your we're not weary, and so time
You're listening to Vancouver co Op Radio cfr OH one
hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Musquam and Slighway Tooth
nations around Vancouver be seen. I'm your host, Bernadine Fox,
and this is this show that dares to change how
we think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
When have ever been fer.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
No?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
What the hell I'm gonna do when I can't sing
a fine way under over?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver called Radio cfr
OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernadine Fox and
today I have the pleasure of speaking with Sema Shaw.
Seema is a powerhouse. She is a self taught visual
artist and writer and alongside her own creative practice, Sema
is the organizer of Professional Artistic Growth Made Accessible and
(01:06):
Thank God. She wrote That Down for Me, which is
a project that offers free professional development opportunities to Vancouver
visual artists and writers who live with the experience of
mental health issues. She recently co edited Off the Map.
She's also an author in Off the Map, which is
about Vancouver writers with lived experience of mental health issues.
(01:27):
She did this alongside Betsy Worland and Kate Bird and
has been published this May in Belprest. So welcome, Seema.
Thank you for coming and chatting with us.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Thank you so much for having me and for calling
me a powerhouse.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Well you really are. I think that people who do
what you do often don't realize how much you're doing
for other people, and so I just want to make
that clear. I think it's important that we we celebrate
our heroes, and I think you're one of them. So
(02:05):
tell me about the professional Well, actually no, let's start
with you. Tell me about your own creative practice.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
It's kind of grown very organically. I mean it started
quite a few years ago, not really with intention, but
you know, after the onset of chronic illness and I
lived with both physical and mental health challenges and I
kind of took a detour in life and started off
(02:38):
more with writing. And that started off really with journaling
more than trying to write anything creatively. But over time
I became more interested in trying to craft some of
those experiences in a creative way, and my focus for
quite a few years was writing. And then I and
(03:03):
everything just sort of evolved naturally, and I had to
kind of a setback with my with my health and
I was in bed a lot, and I was unable
to write in the way that I had been writing
and really focus for long periods of time and kind
of try to work on a narrative that I could
follow through on. And so I I started to just
(03:27):
I challenge myself to this. I got this idea from
something I had seen and kind of modified it to
suit my life at the time, and it was it
was back. It was about a decade ago where I
I saw these this little these little tags that I
(03:52):
saw somebody who had they were doing this project that
this kind of personal challenge that they were going to
do something on this one of these little tags every
day for the year to comment. It was more around
doing some sort of positive affirmations. But I thought I
was going to do something quite different than that. But
just because I wasn't doing anything creative and I felt
(04:14):
like I just wanted to do something, but something that
felt manageable that I could commit to, and it was
just to do something creative on one of these kegs
every day, and it could be just writing a word,
it could be doing something like a little scribble or drawing,
and so that kind of started things off for me
(04:34):
in terms of starting to gravitate towards collage. I wasn't
doing really much visual at all prior to that, and
I really just started to focus on collage. And after
that year is when I really just kind of committed
(04:54):
to not even like again, not with intention, but it's
just like, I'm going to start working on more collages
because I really enjoyed it and everything I was working
and was so tiny, and it just kind of grew
from there. And it wasn't even that I decided, oh,
I'm gonna focus on digital art and not right I
didn't quite know. I was just letting things grow they
(05:19):
as they did and see where things went.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
That's wonderful. I think everybody has an artist inside of them,
even the ones that think that they can't draw a
straight line. And I teach drawing so in my off time.
But I but it really is an amazing tool for
even writing. I find is an amazing tool for helping
(05:44):
people put things together that they couldn't put together before.
It's there's something about it being non narrative. I think
that helps us to put our thoughts together. Perhaps I agree,
and you have a show coming up and we'll talk
about that at the end of interview. I want to
let people know that that's happening. You also started the
Professional Artistic Growth Made Accessible for people with that lived
(06:08):
experience of mental health challenges. Can you tell us a
little bit about that and how that came to be.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I can. That's a project that started in twenty twenty
two and it's funded. It has been funded by the
Consumer Initiative Fund, which is a Vancouver coastal health program
that funds projects that are proposed by individuals with lived
experience of mental health issues. And there are also projects
(06:38):
that need to be community based and benefiting people in
the community. So that's kind of where things began for me.
I did a smaller CIF, the acronym for Consumer Initiative Fund.
I did a smaller CIF project in twenty twenty one
that was a sharing and discussion group for visual artists
(07:01):
with lived experience of mental health issues, and that was
really kind of this kind of this bigger project called
Professional Artistic Growth Made Accessible kind of grew from that.
And the reason I was interested in doing something like
that was because I as an artist and writer that
(07:23):
with lived experience of mental health issues along with just
being a writer and artists. You know, both of those
experience experiences often in and of themselves are isolating, and
especially being self taught and not really being part of
a community or like even knowing how to go about
(07:45):
doing certain things. When I was starting, I was looking
for something that that I could learn from other artists,
and then I found that that was really valuable learning
from other artists as well as At the same time,
I had met Yuria Rice, who at the time was
(08:06):
the director of Kickstart Disability Arts and Culture, and I
had submitted work for a show. Like I had known him,
but I had kind of reconnected with him. I knew
I met him when he was the director back in
twenty nineteen when I had worked in a show and
he was the curator, and I met him when I
dropped my work off there, and that was my first
(08:27):
kind of connection with him, and really I felt an
immediate connection with him. But then in twenty twenty he
opened Outsiders and Others, which is a gallery in Vancouver,
and I connected with him there and volunteered at the gallery,
so I was working with him both as an artist
in some of the shows there, as well as volunteering
(08:50):
and learning a lot from him, and he's become and
was a mentor then and has continued to be a
mentor for me and many other artists as well. I
was kind of both of those experiences have been part
of this group project in twenty twenty one, as well
as working with Uri. I thought like, oh, that it
(09:12):
would be great if there was a way to combine
all of this and you know, see if Ury might
be willing to partner with me on creating something that,
you know, if I could get some funding through the
Consumer Initiative Fund where he could he could also you know,
his expertise could be accessed by other people in the
(09:34):
community as well, and so he was very open and
interested in doing that. And so the project started with
visual art and he did someone on one consults and
the two of us CO facilitated some workshops and those
were around professional development because I think we both in
different capacities, but both were really interested in that, especially
(09:57):
around mental health and really how work by artists with
lived experience of mental health issues is. You know, there's
still stigma and how it's perceived and really from the
group I was doing. Also recognizing that there's a lot
of other artists out there who are very serious about
(10:18):
their art and getting it out in the world and
having it be seen and you know, moving forward in
their careers as artists. So all of that kind of
came together, and when we co facilitated, you know, the
idea was bringing expertise and lived experience like URI's professional expertise,
these years of you know, working as a gallerist and curator,
(10:41):
and my experience as an artist with lived experience of
mental health issues, you know, bringing those together and having
you know, the opportunity for artists in the community to
meet each other as well and learn from each other.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yes. Important. It's one of the most important things I
think in life is to find people who are a
community you belong to, even if it's only you belong
to part of it or belong to it in one
part of your life. There's such an incredible benefit, healing
benefit to being around people that reflect who you are
(11:22):
back to you. And so often I find being a
visual artist myself, that the world out there looks at
people who have mental health challenges who do art as
if it's therapy, not as if it's serious art, even
though we come from you know, historically from you know,
many many artists who had mental health challenges and that's
(11:44):
what made their art so great. Even in this today,
in our world today, we are often seen as people
who are just doing therapy and it's not it's not
serious art. It's exactly it's an expressive art and so
therefore not something that should be taken seriously within the
the whole of the art world. And it's just not true.
(12:07):
People with mental health challenges make incredible art, just incredible.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
I think that was like a frustration for me, you know,
when I was trying to really pursue my art. I
got to the point and yeah, that's just that having
one's art always kind of viewed through a different lens
than art more generally.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
So yeah, yeah, And I remember Jeff McMurtry also saying
that about people who were in wheelchairs, that it was
still it was also it was all kind of considered
rehab and it was you know, that was a long
time ago, Jeff was saying that. So I'm hoping we're
changing that, but who knows. So Professional Artistic Growth Made
(12:50):
Accessible was a project that you did that provided professional
assistance and mentoring to people who were artists with livic
experience of ment How does that kind of sum it up?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah, I mean I think it still exists as a
project and it's growing and evolved, and I think, like
with most things that I've worked on with my own
art and as part of this project, it's it's just
seeing like how what the need seems to be and
(13:25):
where interest lies and how things just naturally evolve over time.
So for the first year it was just visual art
and the accessible part that like in terms of professional
artistic growth made accessible. The accessible is partly that all
the opportunities are free, but also, you know, when I
(13:47):
think about accessible, I think about for me, when I
was starting to do visual art and I had all
these questions and it's very daunting, like even thinking about
trying to at the point where I was thinking of
maybe I want to submit my work somewhere, and how
do I go about doing this and writing an artist
statement all these things that are very daunting, and I
(14:11):
was looking for somebody to help me with that because
I wasn't part of any art community and I didn't
I'm not trained. So I think the accessible part was
especially with having this really fortunate connection with Uri that
I'm so grateful for. But you know, having this project,
(14:36):
have consults with Yuri and these workshops as something that's
putting that out there is something. During that first year
of the project, I think there were two things. One
was that Uri and I both saw that there there
was a need that was based upon the fact that
(14:58):
you know, the consults and the workshops filled up right
away and we had wait lists for all the activities,
which was really it was great. It was for us,
like we were really excited that there seemed to be
the interest in what was being offered, and the feedback was,
you know, it was very positive and encouraged us to
(15:19):
continue with it. And there was also interest from the
community in you know, as inquiring whether these opportunities were
available for writers as well, or if we were going
to be offering similar opportunities for writers. And at that
point it was just focused on there's art. But that's
(15:39):
when kind of the idea just you know again, it's
because it presented itself as something that people might be
interested in that we I was thinking like, how can
this and how can this expand to include writing as well?
And that's when I kind of similar to approaching URI,
(16:02):
I approached Betsy Warland, who had been my writing mentor,
and asked her, if you know, if she wanted to
and would be interested and open and available to do
something similar as what I had been doing with Uri
and partner in that way to offer opportunities for writers.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And out of that came off the map.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, gradually it did. I mean initially
it was Betsy offered consults and then some workshops and
really seeing that there was a lot of writing that
was very unique but just also just really wonderful writing
(16:47):
by the writers she was working with one on one
and in the workshops, and seeing that many of these
writers had never been published before, thinking like we had
talked about it, and even like once the idea of
writing being part of the project came about, I was thinking,
(17:09):
what it would be really great if there was a
way that there could be something parallel to an art exhibition.
The first year of the project year and I co
curated to exhibitions as part of the project that were
exhibitions that were at outsiders and others. So in the
same way, it was like, would there be a way
(17:31):
and would there be the interest because even in the
first year, I think we were not sure how many
submissions we'd get for the art for the call for artists,
and we were pleasantly surprised not only by the number
but the quality of submissions, and we ended up making
it to exhibitions the first The idea initially was one
(17:54):
or actually was to have Yeah it doesn't matter, but
we had enough calls during that first year, but it
was that worked out really well.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And how many how many artists are in off the map?
How many writers artists?
Speaker 3 (18:10):
There are thirty three in total, Yeah, including Kate Bird
who's one of the other editors, and myself.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Okay, and you have a story and here called Waiting
for the Greenhouse Effect, I do, yes, no chance you
can read us a portion of that.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I can, so just to give it a little bit
of context. The piece of mind that's in the anthology
is it's about it's a creative nonfiction piece about my
experience at an impatient creative arts therapy. And for this story,
I've called it meadow Side. And just a really brief
(18:52):
definition I guess of horticultural therapy is a therapeutic modality
that uses gardening and plants to promote health and well being.
Horticultural therapy wasn't what I had envisioned. It didn't seem
much like a horticultural experience, nor was it particularly therapeutic.
(19:16):
Session number one aroma therapy. I realize aroma therapy uses
essential oils derived from plants, but calling it horticultural therapy
seemed like a bit of a stretch. And it wasn't
like we spent the session making essential oils. The instructor
just passed around vials of different oils, which we sniffed
(19:36):
as he explained their healing properties. He also showed us
a few meadow side made products, such as lotions and
spritzers that contained various combinations of essential oils. We didn't
make any of these concoctions, although we were given a
few recipes to make at home. However, we could buy
(19:56):
them directly from the horticulture department if we wanted to
shell out twenty dollars for a small container. After learning
about these products, we moved on to the next step,
giving each other lengthy, step by step hand massages using
meadow sided hand cream. As we sat across the narrow
(20:17):
table from each other, hand in hand, curious passerby stopped
and stared down at us from a large window that
overlooked the greenhouse. They were probably as confused as we were.
Session number two herbal Vinegars. Although we used herbs in
our second session, it seemed more like a cooking class
(20:38):
than anything else. The entire session was dedicated to making
our very own bottle of herbal vinegar. The measured out
herbs had already been laid out in an organized fashion
on a paper place mat in front of each vinegar maker.
We were given a tall bottle into which we placed
each herb in the order given by the instructor. After
(20:59):
this in the star ingredient, and sealed the bottle shut.
I did not find this very therapeutic. We then had
two options, either spend fifteen dollars and by the vinegar
we just made, or leave it behind to be sold.
At this point I sensed a pattern emanating from Meadowside's greenhouse.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah, that's a very telling story. Thank you for that.
On its surface, it looks like it's just a story
about gardening and therapy, but the undertone of it is
actually kind of sinister is the word I want to use.
It reminds me of people being used who go to
(21:45):
developmental disability, not that I know of any of that
are happening, but I've seen and heard about it that
are going to a developmental disability something or other and
they're made to make key chains that are then sold
for the benefit not of them, but of somebody else.
And to me, that sinister. It's very sinister. And it
(22:08):
treats people as workers as opposed to somebody trying to heal.
It's a very different thing. Sima, thank you for coming
and chatting with us. I have appreciated getting to know you,
and I hope that I continue to know you as
you move along and doing all the work that you're
doing that is of benefit to so many other people.
(22:28):
So thank you.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Thank you so much for having me on your show.
I really appreciate it, and for your interest in the
work the project as well as the anthology.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah. Well the anthology is great and I encourage people
to go find it. It's called Off the Map Vancouver
Writers with lived experience of mental health issues. It's edited
by as Sema said, Betsy Warland, Kate Bird and herself,
and you can get it through Bell Press, which is
Bell Press Books All one dot com. So thank you, Cina,
thank you, You're welcome. Okay, we'll be right back, folks.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Air Tana yup, QUI get euons Queen sna Hi, everybody.
My name is Quigate Ywon's I'm a member of the
Squamish Nation and the Yagoalanis Klan of the Hyda Nation.
You're listening to co Op Radio CFRO O one hundred
point five FM. We live, work play and broadcast from
the traditional ancestral and unseeded territories of the Musquiam, Squamish
(23:22):
and Slave Tooth nations.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver cop Radio cfr
O one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox and
right now have the pleasure of speaking with Sandra Ewan,
who's actually been on the show before. Sandra is a
visual artist, a musician and a writer and has probably
been a guest maybe about three times. I think maybe more.
(23:44):
I think actually I think it's more than that anyway.
And you are one of the authors and off the
map the anthology done out of Vancouver, BC, here with
people with lived experience, and so I just wanted to
talk to you about the experience of writing. I know
that you've written before. You have a couple other books out.
Speaker 5 (24:03):
Yeah, I have a memoir called My Schizophonic Life, Chopped Shtick,
a humorous novel, and another said novels from New York
to Vancouver's Stories on the Fly.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Stories on the Fly. That sounds like, so those are a
bunch of short stories.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Yeah, three novels I wrote with a fellow in New
York long distance.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Wow, that sounds actually fascinating. And now you have several
poems in Off the Map. So tell me about the
experience of writing.
Speaker 5 (24:31):
Yeah, So when I started writing, like my memori was,
was written in two thousand and nine, twenty ten, and
I think my writing has really evolved since then. I
think I've gone through a lot more life experience and
the last few years been a lot of years transitions,
So the writing has really changed. And I found that
moving to prose poetry was a real shift for me,
(24:54):
and it was more, you know, we yet end up
big story arc. It just had to be really kind
of direct and really kind of just play and that
kind of thing, and just with words, and we're drawing
a lot from life experience. Had a magic typewriter and
all druging to like type Dona was great. That helped
me create some great work. And then yeah, so as
I approach this, Yeah, so anyway, I'm supposed to be
(25:18):
kind of the book this fall on my own, but
I think the whole writing thing is has really evolved
a lot, and it's also the way of journaling as well.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
How does your writing relate to your visual arts and
your music?
Speaker 5 (25:31):
Oh wow? Yeah, So I think creativity is sort of
an umbrella really for what I do in my life.
I think I've meant other artists who have moved to
music or moved to other forms of creativity just because
it's it's like how we create people live, right, It's
like it's not limited to one one field, right, And
(25:52):
you know, it could be like how you cook, how
you read your furniture, you know, how you dress. It
could be all those things. And I think it's really about,
like it's a lot about self expression. For me, it's
a lot about going back to square one, Like why
am I doing this? Because I need to like just
let it out, end up, go through drumming or let
(26:14):
out through literature or rejournaling or through my art. So
it's really about actually, you know, just mirroring myself and
just like drawing from all over, like from what I
hear in a conversation, what I see on a wall,
or what I hear in the news. You know, anything
that kind of can impact me will come through in
the art, for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Do you find that these different creative outlets give you
a different language almost, and that you can express some
things through writing that you can't express through music, or
some things through music that you can't express in visual art.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
Oh, definitely. I think, for example, music is very intuitive,
like I don't really like memorize or I don't really
script it. It's just like it's just like hearing the
music and responding to It's very kind of intuitive. The
writing is more like kind of like automatic writing, so
a lot of just you know, putting it down on
(27:10):
paper and not a lot of editing or rhyming or
thing about meter. It's just words flowing. Even the sounds
of words could be important. Whereas the art was more planned.
The art was more like you know, when I do
by houseporks, it's more about exactness and like recreating what
I'm seeing with the grid system and you know, being
very precise and very exactly like reflecting what I'm seeing.
(27:35):
The florals I did are more a bit more expressive,
but even then I was really drawing from what I
was seeing. That are more and more, maybe more literal
than the music.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
And of course you wrote the book My Schizophrenic Life.
But the question I ask people, because this is a
book about lived experience, how does your mental health tie
into what you wrote in the book or does it
my memoir?
Speaker 6 (28:00):
Know the atmatic that yeah, okay, so yeah, so the
whole book is about you know, people, people's experience who
have dealt with mental illness. And I would say, you know,
I wrote one poem, Turmoil is about you know, like
anything that can go wrong can go wrong, you know,
like everything's getting worse and worse, and at the end,
(28:20):
you know it's you know then you're just it's just.
Speaker 5 (28:23):
Too much, you know. But some of them are Some
of the poems might be more positive, like, for example,
Shry like the Morning Sun, it's more of a very
more optimistic, more hopeful type of poem, whereas something like
dramatization of the love story over and over is kind
of a bit more dark. So I think it features
(28:45):
different parts of my moods different parts of you know,
the combination we're all, you know, we're all living like
complicated beings. So it's it's like expression of each part
of my day or my week, or how I'm feeling
when I'm writing. And I found I did write another
piece called The Next Size in Drumming, and that's more
about It's about humors too, but it's really about the
(29:08):
complicatedness of drumming and how it's like so intuitive, but
it's so like, it's so.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Hard.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
It was hard for me to develop as a drummer
because of my schizophrenia and my lack of coordination and
just trying to be left handed on a right handed
kind of setup. So it really took me a lot
to learn how to drum. And it's sort of expressed
in that piece how complicated drumming really is. I didn't
realize it until I got into it.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I like what you're saying, because really what you are
when you talk about how your mental health has anything
to do with your writing, you are, in fact saying
exactly what anybody says who is a writer who doesn't
have a mental health challenge. And it proves the point
that I kind of talked with a seema about around
how art who have mental health challenges should be seen
(30:02):
as artists and not as people who are doing art
as part of their therapy, because their work is on
par with anybody else and done for exactly the same reasons,
because everybody, even any writer out there, could make art
for exactly the same reason you talked about. Can you
read on one of your poems for us?
Speaker 5 (30:19):
Sure? Which try would you like me to read?
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Well, let me see here. I actually like turmoil. I
don't know why. It seems maybe a bit pessimistic of
me to say that, but I just loved it so
and it is We have days exactly like that. So
if you can, that would be great.
Speaker 5 (30:40):
Thank you very much. Here it is turmoil. Turmoil is
when you're on the highway fifty miles from nowhere and
the car overheats, your phone is dead. You walk for
three hours in the dark, find a motel with no
vacant see restaurants are closed, run out of cigarettes, starts
(31:07):
to rain, shoes soaked through, turns to sleep. You fall
in the mud, can't get up. No cops, no ablets,
no one for miles. You see a glow in the distance.
It gets closer a white sedan pulls out in a
(31:27):
tight dress of perfume. Woman the lights smiles and extends
her gloved hand. You reach out instead. She pockets your wallet,
nods and drives off. That's turnoil.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And indeed it is, isn't it. It's very descriptive of
I think anybody who's gone through one of those times
where everything that could go wrong did go wrong, and
you just have to get up the next day and
start over. Yeah, it doesn't. Thank you, Sandra for coming
and chatting with us. I've appreciated it.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
Thank you so much, Brittany.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
You're welcome and we'll be right back. Folks.
Speaker 7 (32:12):
Oh you hey, this A lot of people call this
rock and roll.
Speaker 8 (32:19):
Swings.
Speaker 9 (32:21):
This is going the let's see with the left.
Speaker 7 (32:24):
Hand, yeah, and the right hand fits in with something
like this. Yeah, here we going now.
Speaker 10 (32:31):
Yeah, it's called rock and roll, and you can hear
all about it on Rock Talk Discover the Hidden but
Enchanting side of the music, Friday mornings at nine o'clock.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Oh if that isn't enchanting, nothing is.
Speaker 7 (32:49):
Go ahead, Jess dance go crazy.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on bank of a cop
radios y f R one five Bernardine Fluxen. Today I
have the pleasure of speaking with Quinn Martin's Quinn. I
think you and I have known each other for a
long time. I can't I asked Mary O'Toole the same
question in the last interview and it was it turned
out it was like seventeen years. So I don't know
(33:16):
how long you and I have known each other, but
it has been a long time. You are one of
the writers in Off the Map, the new anthology that's
just out in May of twenty twenty five, which is
Vancouver writers with lived experience of mental health issues, and
it's edited by Betsy Warlan, se Mishaw and Kate Bird.
(33:36):
How did you come to be writing this story and
or writing? And maybe actually you can start by telling
us a little bit about who you are other than
that you know me.
Speaker 7 (33:46):
I'm based in East Vancouver and primarily I'm I identify
as a visual artist, but recently I've also been writing.
I guess I started getting into writing when I was
a student at Emily Carr and I was doing kind
of academic writing and that sort of thing, and then this,
(34:08):
this is my first sort of attempt at writing fiction,
And so what I've written for the the anthology is
a short story and it's a science fiction kind of
psychological thriller type story.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Well, if this is your first attempt at writing us
a narrative of fiction, I mean I read it as
a great little story. So well done.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
What prompted you to write this story for this anthology?
Speaker 7 (34:45):
So I had this idea about this kind of struggling
artist and he's he's a street photographer with an anxiety disorder,
and so it was a way to sort of explore
(35:05):
like ideas related to like current issues going on around
like privacy and like social media and sort of living
in a digital age and sort of concerns that we
have these days around AI and stuff. And so it
was a way for me to explore those themes but
(35:29):
also to like to explore some of my struggles with
anxiety through this character. And so I was able to
really kind of channel my anxieties into this character, Philip Morgan,
who's the protagonist of the story. It's kind of like
(35:50):
a therapeutic experience for me.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
And that was what I was just about to get through,
which is that not that writing is, you know, is
therapeutic just because you have a mental health challenge or whatever,
but because I find that when I write, I actually
put pieces together that I couldn't before. It's everything is
in your head and not once you get it down
on piece of paper, you can start to see the
(36:15):
patterns and organize that information. In another way, Did it
help you with your anxiety?
Speaker 7 (36:22):
Yes, it did because I was able to use humor
in the story, and so I can like sort of
poke some fun at this character who's he's having a
hard time, and some of some of the things he's
going through are kind of comical, and so it's sort
of like poking fun at myself a little bit. And
(36:44):
so that that was that was nice for it to
be able to do that.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
And this is the first time you've published I take
it if this is your first non fiction yeah, fiction
fictional piece. Right, How did you find the process of editing?
Speaker 7 (37:06):
So? I edited closely with one of the editors, Seema Shaw,
and it was a really good experience. We had to
do like quite a lot of like work back and
forth on the story too, like fine tune it. But
like she was, she was excellent to work with and
(37:27):
just was a real pleasure for me to work with her.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Oh that's good. So it doesn't sound like as you
were working you had you had to make concessions or
compromises that actually took stuff out of your story, which
can sometimes happen with an editors.
Speaker 7 (37:42):
Yeah, it wasn't always an easy process, but like she
was really good at explaining, like her her thoughts around
suggestions she was making.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Well, that's great.
Speaker 7 (37:56):
At first, maybe I thought, oh, maybe I wanted it
to be this way not that way. But through talking
things through with her, was like came to a consensus
how to have the story progress.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
That's great, that's great. Can you read us a part
of your story?
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (38:20):
I can. Okay, So the story is called eye Tap.
Philip Morgan stands in his darkroom, inspecting his freshly developed
prints that hang from clothes pins. The pungent gasoline like
(38:40):
smell of the developing chemicals fills the air, and the
aner red safe light cassi warm glow. The darkroom silence
is the sanctuary grounding him in the present moment. A
rarity among photographers today, Philip insists on shooting exclusively in film.
For him, this is more than a preference, It is
(39:02):
a vital part of his artistic philosophy. He feels the
medium captures moments with a depth and richness that digital
photography can never match, and like an other analog photography enthusiasts,
he believes in the value of the artifact, having something
real in his hands to hold. As a street photographer
(39:23):
with an anxiety disorder, Philip's routine consists of engaging with
the world in short bursts and then retreating to his
cocoon in his dark room to find solace from the
external chaos. Today, however, even a safe space doesn't feel safe.
Philip's thoughts keep returning to this morning's video call with
(39:44):
his daughter Iris. Like most twenty four year olds these days,
Iris is a whiz with anything tech related. Eager to
support her dad's career, she constantly encourages him to promote
his work online, but Philip worries about losing creative control
over his images. Not surprisingly, he was completely caught off
(40:05):
guard by Irus' call this morning. So, Dad, you finally
did it. You decided to upload your photos to the internet.
What are you talking about those prints you showed me
last weekend in your dark room? I saw them posted
on eye tap. What the fuck is zye tap It's
(40:25):
a new social media app. He could not believe his
eyes when I was shared her screen to show him
his unedited photos posted online for all the world to see.
This can't be happening, Philip cried out, his sense of
reality unraveling. I haven't even scanned the negatives. I feel
like a character in one of those dystopian science fiction
(40:48):
stories by that Vancouver author whose name I can never remember.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
That's a wonderful Quinn. And then it's a great beginning
because it may you want to finish reading the story.
So I hope people will go out and get this
book and be able to finish reading that story. So
thank you, Quinn. While I have you on here, can
you talk a little bit about your visual art as well.
Speaker 7 (41:20):
So I like to use humor in my work, and
so in this story too, I using humor, and I
use a lot of texts in my work and started
doing have mostly background is doing acrylic painting, but also
(41:40):
work in collage and photography, and so yeah, that's where
my focus is. I also do a lot of work
with with found images and found objects.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, that's one of my favorite things to do, is
to work with found objects, although I will tell you
not many people understand it. I don't know what your
studio looks like, but mine looks like I hoarde garbage.
You have all this stuff that you know is really exciting,
but other people see it as a piece of rusty metal.
So it is a bit of a problem. But you
(42:19):
do more than that because you're also a part of
the Connection Salon and we've had Pierre Lecner on to
talk about the Connection Salon here in Vancouver, And you're
doing a lot of work with people who are outsiders
and you know, so how long have you been doing that?
Speaker 9 (42:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (42:37):
So well, I have been working with the Connection Salan
collective for about four years, and then before that I
was a collective member with Gallery Gotshet, and so for
a long time I've kind of sort of sort of
(43:00):
use my journey with mental health and substance used as
a kind of inspiration, you know, for my artwork, and
you know, doing that and even like you know, even
contributing to the scientology, there is the fear of like
stigma that comes associated with that with kind of outing
(43:23):
yourself as being someone with history with mental health difficulties. Right, Well,
for me, it's it was really kind of worth it,
kind of the opportunity to get my work published.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
And well that's great. Well, thank you Quinn, and thanks
for coming and chatting with me and for reading part
of your short story for us here on your threading
Madness and we'll be right back.
Speaker 11 (43:50):
Folks joined genergie with guest hosts every Monday from one
to two point thirty in the afternoon.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
So, in terms of life, When.
Speaker 11 (44:06):
Spirit Whispers is where we explore treaties in BC residential school, stories,
foster care, and ideas about truth and reconciliation in Canada,
plus news on the news.
Speaker 12 (44:17):
See you say you'll stop, but one you listen to
me because you might believe what you haven't seen and
what you don't believe that.
Speaker 5 (44:24):
What makes the great.
Speaker 11 (44:26):
Don't miss this great opportunity to become familiar with your
first Nations people and the very pride that has kept
us strong. When Spirit Whispers Mondays at one pm.
Speaker 12 (44:36):
Then like a trip sack, do.
Speaker 9 (44:39):
I catch you what I'm saying?
Speaker 12 (44:40):
Like a live more than you and more than me,
And there's plenty more online if you don't believe it.
If you need some more convincing, let'spend there not alone
in a record at school buildings and terms of life.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
cfr O one hundred point five f M. I'm Bernardine Fox.
Rethreading Madness is coming up to its sixth anniversary of
being on air. We produce an air each week out
of cfr O one hundred point five f M on
the unseated traditional territory of the Squamish, Muscriham and Slighway
(45:17):
Tooth nations around Vancouver. Bc RTM was one of the
first radio programs to focus on mental health issues here
in Canada, in an area swamped with statements from therapists
rooted in colonial ideas about mental health and trained in
the d s. M rt M works to ensure that
the voices of those with lived experience have agency and
(45:39):
opportunity to define who they are and what is true
for them who listens to us. Beyond those with lived experience,
our audience includes their friends and partners, along with therapists, counselors,
and students of psychology. Since twenty twenty two, all of
our programs have been uploaded to the Mental Health Radio
Network and can be downloaded from all podcast platforms, so
(46:02):
if this show was of interest to you, you might
find the rest of our programs informative as well. You
can find them by searching for rethreading Madness wherever you
listen to your podcast.
Speaker 13 (46:28):
I'm a little steady, I'm a lost in size in
my heart stays heavy. I don't say what's on my
prime and I think it's starting a show? Can you
(46:48):
tell them? Losing control?
Speaker 14 (46:52):
You feel like I'm broken to so many pieces.
Speaker 9 (46:55):
Don't know if you can fix me.
Speaker 14 (47:00):
Can't somebody take this paince Cojos not the same? I'm
so losty confused, don't know what else to do?
Speaker 9 (47:12):
Can you help me?
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Can you help me?
Speaker 9 (47:16):
Can't somebody take this pain?
Speaker 8 (47:20):
I just want to change. I'm so done trying to
prove that I know way to move.
Speaker 9 (47:29):
God have me? Can you have me?
Speaker 14 (47:34):
Because I've tried all the smoking, man, the drinking, wasting time. Yeah,
I've tried all the running, hiding from.
Speaker 9 (47:41):
The paint inside. I can't lie broken heartest water I
find so I know that I can't help me.
Speaker 14 (47:49):
Can't somebody take this pain?
Speaker 9 (47:53):
Cochose not the same?
Speaker 14 (47:57):
I'm so lontin Confusedn't what else to do.
Speaker 9 (48:01):
Can you help me? Can you have me? Can't somebody
take this pain? I just want to change.
Speaker 8 (48:11):
I'm so done trying to prove that a no way
to move?
Speaker 9 (48:18):
God? Have me? Can you have.
Speaker 15 (48:22):
Me?
Speaker 9 (48:24):
Can you have me? O? Can you have me? Can
you have me? Can you help me? Take this pain?
Speaker 8 (48:42):
Not the same, there's some lufs confused, don't know what
to do?
Speaker 9 (48:50):
Can you have me? Can you have me? Can't somebody
take this pain? I just want to share.
Speaker 8 (49:02):
Unseldun, trying to approve that a know way to move?
God till you hep me.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
You're listening to re Threading Madness on Vancouver Call Up
Radio cfr OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine
Fox and right now I'm with Merle Ginsberg, who is
a writer in Off the Map Vancouver Writers with Lived
Experience of Mental health issues that was edited by Betsy
Worland and Sema Shaw and Kate Bird. Merle has worked
(49:33):
in and around mental health for many, many years, but
she's also written about mental health in columns in newspapers
and now in the book Off the Map. So welcome Merle,
thanks for coming, Thank.
Speaker 16 (49:47):
You, Bertnan Dean. It's a pleasure to be here?
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Tell us what inspired you to write this particular poem,
and the one in off the map is called The Cost.
That's right.
Speaker 16 (50:00):
Well, I actually worked with an express of arts therapist
and we work through my writing. So I had started
The Cost maybe six months ago or longer, and we
talked a fair bit about it and I just you know,
added to it and did a little bit of editing.
(50:22):
I think the purpose of it was because this this
illness manic depression is very hard to describe to people,
anyone and everyone. And it's also for me what it
felt like when I felt a shift of mood or
(50:42):
when I was when I was nervous, and when I
felt frightened, because this illness is very big. So this
is what happened. I just I just wrote down how
I felt and used metaphors, and uh, it just took
one life of its own. Some of them that a force,
(51:03):
are based on dreams. Some of the things are just
you know, how I felt, and I just put the
words to paper.
Speaker 5 (51:11):
So that's how it started.
Speaker 16 (51:13):
And yeah, I hope people get some kind of understanding
from it of what it's like to live with illness.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Does writing solve something for you that you don't get
somewhere else, don't.
Speaker 16 (51:30):
I mean, I think for me, it's a very powerful
way of expressing yourself and providing some comfort and again understanding.
And I've had manic depression for so long as forty
years and I'm still not sure sometimes of how I'm
feeling and how it's affecting myself and others that it
(51:55):
just helps for me this kind of expression, Yes, very powerful.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
As a result, I agree, I write, and I am
able to put things together when I write that I
can't put together any other form of creative activity ever,
not talking to people, not art, not dance, if I
try and do that, because I am disabled, so it
(52:24):
makes it a little harder. But writing settles into my
brain in a way that allows me to put things
together that I haven't been able to do before. So
can you tell us a little bit about the poem
that you read at the book launch, of which I
absolutely adored And I don't usually like poems, just so
(52:47):
you know how much that means when I say I
absolutely adored your poem. It was just great and it
really pulled me in and I wanted to hear the
next line and the next line in the next line.
So can you is there anything else that you want
to say about the poem or can you give us
more about the poem before you read it, or can
you just read? What would you like?
Speaker 16 (53:09):
I think that I think that, I mean, I've shared
how it came about and the metaphors and what my
wish is for others who read it or hear it.
So I think that probably this is a good time
to read. And what I'll do is read the introduction
(53:33):
that will just flow into the poem.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Great, perfect, thank you, Okay, okay, So.
Speaker 16 (53:42):
This would be the cost and the introduction. I've lived
with manic depression for many years. I've learned that it
reads isolation and pain. I'm not a stranger to either.
I feel compelled to tell you that it has also
enriched my life with a profound beauty and sensitivity that
(54:06):
I wouldn't have had otherwise. The title of my poem
is the Cost Born without a layer of skin. I
have scarlet red skin. It glistens, it stings, it's raw,
(54:26):
it's smoky fishnet. My skin is fishnet, like the diamond
shaped stockings. Energy, the color black storms through me. It's
not mine, but it becomes mine. It's a living furnace
that doesn't have time to brew. It's on fire, ready
(54:51):
to explode. There is impossible strength. It's a plane slowly
climbing to the fore zone. It has no compass, no boundaries.
It shakes with powers silently. It's the grizzly bear facing me,
(55:12):
his paws over my living room ledge. I look to
the other ledge. He's waiting for me with long, perfect
and of sen claws. It's the tiny birds. Their bodies
are puffy, their feathers are sticky, their eyes are pin heads,
(55:32):
their beaks are open because they can't breathe. It's the
rolling thunder in the distance. There's no lightning. It doesn't
need an introduction. It's the rolling thunder in the distance
coming from me.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
And that is just as beautiful as when I heard
you read it at the book launch. One of the
lines in it that I love, but I love it
more and I hear you say it, is that it
has no compass, no boundaries, It shakes with power silently.
It's very powerful statement. Yes, yes, so thanks for coming
(56:12):
and chatting with us about your poem. And I'm hoping
lots of people are able to find this book and
get it and read it because it has I think
thirty four writers in it, all talking about mental health. Yes,
so very powerful book. So thank you, Morrol, and we'll
be right back forks. Oh you're welcome. You're welcome, and
(56:33):
we'll be right back folks. And that's our show. My
thanks to Sema Shaw, Quinn Martin, Sandra Yuan, and Meryl
Ginsburg for sharing their writing with us. Music today was
by Sherry Alrick and Jake Banfield. And to you our listeners,
thank you for joining us today. Stay safe out there.
You've just listened to Rethreading Madness, where we dare to
(56:54):
change how we think about mental health. We air live
on Vancouver co Op Radio CFR two point five FM
every Tuesday at five pm, or online at co opradio
dot org. If you have questions or feedback about this program,
we want to share your story or have something to
say to us, we want to hear from you. You
can reach us by email Rethreading Madness at co opradio
(57:17):
dot org. This is Bernardine Fox. We'll be back next week.
Speaker 2 (57:21):
Until then, when I've ever been further, no, what the
hell I'm gonna do when I can't seem to find
my way under over to just want I'm ready to
(57:45):
give the they you are, Will we turn out the
lights in inside? It's all right, go to will be
all right?
Speaker 9 (58:02):
Why do I always believe but when you're.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
Tell me everything's gonna be all right? Yeah, Why don't
I wonder how you know?
Speaker 9 (58:23):
Surely you don't have all of the facts. You could be.
Speaker 5 (58:29):
Just making it up.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
Why don't I ever think of that? Some God imagine
in the words that you read.
Speaker 15 (58:44):
Saying, baby, take it from me, it's all right, it's
all right, don't too well, really be alright?
Speaker 9 (58:57):
Why do I always believe then when you.
Speaker 15 (59:01):
Tell everything's gonna be afray, everything's gonna be aray.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
Than anyone else. It's such a cliche, just words people
say to be nice somehow, and nice far from you.
I'm convinced your we're not weary, and so time
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