February 4, 2025 • 60 mins
Spotting a Coaching Scam with youtube creator Danielle Ryan
Danielle Ryan describes herself as a youtube channel creator and “just a troll on the internet covering topics related to the business & life coaching industry.” As she says, part of the problem is lack of regulation and then what happens when coaches coaches to become coaches. She spends a lot of time sharing “my silly little opinions as I deep dive into *allegedly* problematic people, organizations, and techniques used to manipulate people in the space while also sprinkling in the occasional small business video.”
Her channel is a mix of educational & commentary content.
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@itsdanielleryan
Website: https://danielleryan.me
Music by Shari Ulrich, David Laronde, and Elizabeth Wallace
Danielle Ryan describes herself as a youtube channel creator and “just a troll on the internet covering topics related to the business & life coaching industry.” As she says, part of the problem is lack of regulation and then what happens when coaches coaches to become coaches. She spends a lot of time sharing “my silly little opinions as I deep dive into *allegedly* problematic people, organizations, and techniques used to manipulate people in the space while also sprinkling in the occasional small business video.”
Her channel is a mix of educational & commentary content.
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@itsdanielleryan
Website: https://danielleryan.me
Music by Shari Ulrich, David Laronde, and Elizabeth Wallace
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Vancouver coll Op Radio cfr oh one
hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Musquam and Slighway Tooth
nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernadine Fox, and
this is this show that dares to change how we
think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
When have ever been further.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
No?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
What the hell I'm gonna do when I can't sing
a fine away under over to?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
They're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver coll Oup Radio
cfr oh one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernadine Fox
and today I have Danielle Ryan with me. She has
a really popular YouTube program that she does on coaching scams,
and I really wanted her to come and talk with
us because, as you know, we do a lot of
work around therapy, abuse and exploitation on this program, and
(01:07):
what we're finding is that therapist when they lose their license,
often will become coaches because they don't need a license,
but maybe they do. Danielle tell us who you are
for sure.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Thank you so much for having me as Vernon Dean mentioned.
My name is Danielle. I am a content creator based
here in Vancouver as well, and I actually started my
journey as a business owner about seven years ago now,
when I decided to quit my job and open a
yoga studio in Ontario. And in that time, I actually
(01:40):
had hired a business coach and it was a whole
situation in itself where I essentially ended up losing close
to five thousand dollars to this person who promised me
one thing and delivered something else, which I'm sure we
can get into later. But flash forward a few years.
I ended up moving out here to the West Coast,
and I I started this YouTube channel where I was
(02:01):
actually sharing my experience as a business owner, and on
a bit of a whim, decided to recount that story
of hiring this coach and having a negative experience, and
it seemed to really resonate with people, and from that
point on, I started getting people reaching out to me,
not just about business coaches, but about life coaches, spiritual coaches,
(02:22):
all different sorts of shady behavior that was happening in
the coaching space specifically, and so I really kind of
latched onto that and started investigating it.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Further and now where.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Another two years along the road, and it's just wild
what I've learned in that time. And so I have
my own business now that I run, and then I
also have this YouTube channel, and I'm just really excited
to get into the conversation with you today.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Can you tell us how coaches are trained? Do they
have to have training to call themselves a coach?
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Yeah, that's a great question because the coaching industry itself,
I would say, operates in a largely or predominantly gray area.
So there is no sort of governing body for the
coaching industry, which essentially means that anyone could wake up
on any given day and just decide to slap the
title of coach on themselves, regardless of whether or not
(03:13):
they have any formal education or not. So while training
programs do exist, they aren't mandated or mandatory by any means.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So if you're seeing a coach, what is their job?
What are they supposed to do?
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I think if we look at the traditional definition of coaching,
a coach should be someone who asks very powerful questions,
pointed questions in an effort to try and guide you
to discovering your own answers. So typically you would hire
a coach if you have a specific goal in mind
that you want assistants in helping to achieve. So, I know,
(03:51):
like in my own experience, I started my business with
no experience, and I just wanted someone that was going
to kind of guide me on how to make it
a successful venture. And so I think in the context
of any type of coaching, it's typically like I'm facing
this particular challenge and I just want someone that's gonna,
you know, ask me those questions to help me figure
out how to get to where I want to be.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, that's kind of my idea when I think about
coaching and the times that I thought about maybe hiring
a coach. I never did, but I always felt that
I would be interacting with somebody who knew the path
and was well versed in that path and knew exactly
all the steps I needed to take to get where
I needed to be. Is that kind of what a
coach should be? Is that kind of the same thing
(04:33):
you said exactly.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
I think that sometimes there can be a little bit
of confusion, and this is amongst coaches themselves or people
outside the coaching industry. No one really seems to understand
truly whether or not a coach is supposed to like
tell you what to do per se. And I think again,
if we look at like the formal definition, the role
of a coach isn't necessarily to say, you know, follow
(04:57):
step one, step two, step three, to just ask you
what you think is the right next step and how
that would feel. And I think that I mentioned this
because it again it creates this sort of gray area
where because no one's really sure what credentials the coach
should have or what specific they're supposed to help us with.
Then when we get into these programs, we pay these
(05:20):
people and we don't get results, well, then was it
really my responsibility as the coach to teach you how.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
To do that?
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Anyway, it makes it the whole situation very very murky,
because it is quite unclear.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Is there a governing body for coaches? Is there a
place that people go to get trained or become registered
coaches like we have for therapists.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
For sure, So this is an interesting question because depending
who you ask, you might get a different answer. There
are particular governing bodies we can call them very loosely,
that do exist. So one that is quite well known
is the International Coaching Federation or the ICF, and so
so essentially they they effort to be a governing body
(06:03):
wherein they have like a code of ethics, they create
guidelines for what coaching programs need to include or not include,
and that sort of thing. But there is again no
real official governing body that says, like, if you want
to be a life coach, you have to be trained
through the ICF. So I mean, when I first opened
my yoga studio, I actually keep in mind I was
(06:24):
twenty six years old at the time. I thought, why
don't I become a life coach, and so I went
on youdome dot com and paid like thirteen dollars for
a quote unquote certification that was not ICF certified, but
I got a certificate at the end that said I
was a certified life coach. And so, yes, there's a
governing body, but there's no actual enforcement in terms of
(06:47):
like from the actual government. It's just kind of like
this large organization that says they're in charge. But at
the end of the day, anyone can still call themselves
a coach.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So, just so that I'm clear, you paid thirteen dollars
and got a certificate. Did you have any training or
did you were you vetted? Did you have to prove
that you were a life coach? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (07:07):
So it was like a stereotypical online course, like I
think there was like eight hours worth of modules that
you would watched. There was homework you would submit, but
in retrospect, it's like who's actually reviewing that material? There
was no mandatory amount of hours I needed to complete
to prove that I had.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
This skill set.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Okay, I could have just as easily logged on and
clicked next, next, next, next, next, till I got to
the end of the program.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Right exactly. So this ICF, are they able to hold
coaches accountable if they don't follow the ethical guidelines.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
In a sense? Sure. So let's say I got a
certification through an ICF accredited institution and six months down
the line, a client reports me to the ICF for
acting unethically. The ICF might then strip my credentials, but again,
because they don't actually have any authority, there's nothing stopping
me from still continuing to call myself just a regular
(08:00):
and advertise my services as such.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
And is that their only penalty is to strip your
certificate from you?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
I believe. So, yeah, it would be you lose your
ICF certification, but again it doesn't really hold any weight
in the first place.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Right, And that's kind of where we're at with thousands
upon thousands upon thousands of therapists and counselors INBC who
may or may not be trained, but are a part
of a professional association that is a nonprofit organization, whether
it's an association or a society. And when a complaint
comes forward, and I know this personally, you send in
(08:39):
a complaint and the person you're complaining about resigns their membership,
the investigative file is just closed, that's it, and a
person goes on continuing to do therapy because they can.
There is no regulation in the province of BC that
somebody can't call themselves a therapist or a counselor if
(09:00):
they haven't been trained and certified as such. So what
kind of coaches are there, like in terms of you know,
the types of coaches.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Literally anything you could absolutely imagine. There are relationship coaches,
divorce coaches, life coaches, business coaches, career coaches. You want
to pick any obscure thing, a pregnancy coach, like, it
doesn't matter you come up with a word slap the
title coach next to it. It probably exists.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
That's so, and you've been doing your YouTube program. Sorry,
I think is that what you call it? A YouTube program?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
My YouTube channel. I've been at a channel twenty twenty two,
so almost three years now.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Three years, and so I'm sure that you've heard exactly
that that there's all different kinds of coaches. So what's
the difference between a coach and a mentor?
Speaker 4 (09:51):
For sure? Again, I think it comes back to that
initial definition of the coach being someone that's just supposed
to ask you those powerful questions help you kind of
navigate things on your own. I would refer to them
more as like a support in terms of like they're
kind of guiding you, but they're not necessarily telling you
what to do. I think when it comes to something
like mentorship, that's when you would typically be seeking out
(10:13):
someone who has that direct experience related to whatever you're
trying to accomplish, and they're more likely to actually show you,
you know, step one you should do this, step two
you should do this, and then also maybe combining a
little bit of that coaching so it's slightly more hands on.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I would say, right, and clearly there are also mental
health coaches.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Yes, oh dear God, yes.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
So tell me about mental health coaches, because that's what
we deal with here. We deal with mental health, for sure.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
So mental health coaching, I think is probably one of
the most fascinating ones that I've seen specifically in that
I think a lot of the times it kind of
again gets really blurry because these people are essentially, in
many cases, I won't say all, but many mental health
(11:08):
coaches are sort of cause playing I would say, as
an actual mental health professional, so whether that's a therapist,
whether that's a psychologist, whatever, and they're essentially from the
ones that I again have looked at, seem to be
essentially wanting to lead people under the idea that like,
(11:31):
I have the skills to help you overcome again insert
issue here, whether it's PTSD, it's some other kind of trauma,
some kind of ADHD, mental health disorder, whatever, I typically
it comes from the lens of like I have it,
I overcame it, now I can help you, And so
they use that to try and convince you that they
(11:52):
can help you solve whatever problem you're facing, regardless of
whether or not they do actually have the credentials or
understanding to be able to do so.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Is there any mechanism within the field, which, when I
say that sounds so scattered, I can't imagine that your
answer is going to be yes. That allows people who
are entertaining the idea of using a coach that they
can go to and sort of find out whether or
(12:22):
not they should take this kind of coach or that
kind of coach, or if coaching is for them, or
is there anything like that.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Yeah, Like again, I guess the ICF tries to have
those resources, like they have blog posts and whatever that
kind of go over This is when you should hire
a coach, this is when you shouldn't. But in terms
of like one specific database, I guess not. Okay, but
I think like there again, because so many people are
having these conversations now, particularly those who have been burned
(12:52):
by the industry, there is a lot of information available
freely online, Like if you just search coaching scam, I'm
sure you'll get tons of articles, reddit posts, YouTube videos,
et cetera.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And is there any review board or place that somebody
can go to and see whether or not somebody they're
thinking of going to has been complained about or has
already committed a scam of some kind.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Not formally, but I would say I always encourage people
to search like first name, last name, Reddit and see
if anyone has posted there, because that's one place that
people can do so anonymously, so it's often quite insightful.
And then also, like Trust Pilot, Better Business Bureau, a
lot of larger named coaches have records there.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Of okay things like that. So we're gonna take a
little break, but when we come back, we're going to
talk some more with Danielle about coaching scams and how
we can figure out who's who and what's what and
what are the red flags. So we'll be right back.
Folks do, and they.
Speaker 6 (14:20):
Flow through my heart, but I don't know where they go. Still,
I find a friend. We're all time whispering to me
in my mind, Oh.
Speaker 7 (14:40):
Excuse me, take.
Speaker 8 (14:45):
Me home tonight, O tell me other things. You're gonna
be out. Sometimes it works.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
On your side.
Speaker 9 (15:05):
Other times, if not, to say, he s there's someone
who will team all the blame is she?
Speaker 10 (15:16):
Then in my mind?
Speaker 7 (15:22):
She in my mind, it's gonna win ty tonight. Join
(15:43):
the other thing's gonna be all right.
Speaker 10 (16:10):
Oh to the moon, Take me home to that.
Speaker 8 (16:26):
Tell me everything.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
He's going to be.
Speaker 8 (16:28):
Our month, fast, a month, a year.
Speaker 10 (16:36):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
We'll time go.
Speaker 10 (16:43):
Giad to time, races, a ride, seasons, come.
Speaker 6 (16:50):
And go, oh.
Speaker 8 (17:00):
Ho today, tell me other thing.
Speaker 9 (17:11):
It's gonna be out bassill.
Speaker 8 (17:21):
Me today, Tell me everything, jell me everything, Tell me everything.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Me your.
Speaker 11 (17:47):
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(18:08):
You want it, I got it. Just name it, I'll
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one hundred point five co Op Radio Monday mornings one am.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver cop Radio CFRO
one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox speaking with
Danielle Ryan, who has a YouTube channel on coaching scams. So, Danielle,
thank you for doing this with us. It's a very
important topic and I suspect a lot of people don't
know about it unless you've experienced it. Am I right?
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Oh, one hundred percent. I think when I think back
to my own experience, I look at the stories that
I've been told by individuals that watch my content A
lot of the time. You know, you get snarky comments
on YouTube, just like anywhere on the internet. You know,
why would any button be stupid to fall for this?
And I think that people tend to really not understand
(19:06):
the vulnerability that goes into, like first of all, why
people fall through these coaching scams, but also the fact that,
like the solutions that are being presented to you are
so enticing that there is no possible way that you
would even think to register that it could potentially be
a scam until you give your money and end up
recognizing through going through it that it's not what it
(19:29):
appears to be.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So I frea go back to mental health coaching. You
mentioned that it's particularly dangerous. Can you talk a little
bit about that.
Speaker 10 (19:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
I think one of the most common things that I've
seen in the content that I've looked at, specifically on
my channel is a lot of these mental health coaches
claiming to help you heal your trauma or cure your trauma,
which obviously I think at face value, can people I
listening to this might be able to understand why that
(20:02):
is incredibly dangerous. But if we look back at our
previous conversation and we think about how we're operating within
an unregulated industry, there isn't really a governing body that's
going to reprimand people for not following any kind of
ethical boundaries. And if we take that sort of environment
and match it with these people with no skill set,
(20:25):
no credential, no education in many cases offering to help
you heal your trauma, AKA put you in a situation
where we're likely going to unearth previous experiences you've been
through without the proper sort of safeguards in place. I
guess you could say, I think that it just creates
an environment in which really bad things can happen. And
(20:48):
I mean, I've discussed one on one, there's a number
of interviews on my channel with people who have been
re traumatized from hiring coaches who claim to be able
to help them with their PTSD or whatever kind of
mental health issues they were facing. And then also I
think it can sometimes in certain cases foster a codependent
relationship because you're coming into this coaching relationship with this
(21:12):
mental health coach who promises to be able to help
you overcome whatever traumatic instances you face in your lifetime.
Maybe you don't have access to other people or relationships
in your life that have been supportive with that specific
situation that you're dealing with, and now this coach comes
in and leverages that essentially acting as a friend or
(21:34):
a confidant again because those ethical boundaries aren't super clear,
but in many cases are often doing that for their
own financial gain. So it really is just this wild
mix of someone being in a really vulnerable position, finding
a mental health coach who is promising to be able
(21:54):
to help heal them, giving them money in exchange for
that service, and then ending up in this very dependent
relationship where the only way they're going to quote unquote
benefit from it is to continue to give them more
and more money.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
And to continue to be dependent on them.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Exactly right.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I mean that is a goal of therapy, and we
sort of we lose sight of that. And I know
this isn't therapy, but often it's a lost thing, and
that you go to therapy, and your counselor's job is
to work themselves out of the job. That's what they
should be doing. And it sounds like, well, we know
some counselors don't do that, and it sounds like some
(22:35):
mental health coaches are also not doing that. There are
some crossovers there that pertain to therapy abuse and exploitation,
like creating the dependency certainly having the other one that
I keep thinking must be here just because of what
that other person said, you know, saying why would people
(22:56):
be taken in like this? Is that people go into
therapy U and I would imagine coaching not knowing what
that process is. They are told, go to therapy, you
need to see a therapist. Go trust the therapist, say
whatever you need to say. And if you're not telling them,
you're not trusting them enough, you're not doing your work,
you're not working hard enough. And so people go sort
of blinded or not blinded, but blind to the process
(23:19):
or what to expect or what should or shouldn't happen.
We don't know the ethical guidelines for the therapist. They
know them, and a good therapist is going to say
to their client, this is the ethical guideline here, and
a bad therapist is going to say, we don't need
to worry about that, we can transgress, that it's all okay.
And so what you're describing to me is very similar
(23:40):
to what we see happening with abusive therapists.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
And I think it's almost exacerbated in coaching specifically again
because there is that lack of regulation and many coaches
don't have a certification or they've never even read through
a code of ethics or know what that even is
to then have something to uphold their behavior too, because
they don't know, so they're just like the blind leading
(24:06):
the blind. I did this thing to overcome my trauma whatever,
and now I'm just going to teach you what I did,
even if it's not necessarily safe for you.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yes, and disregarding the fact that everybody's healing process is
different and the variables that go into that are completely
different for everybody. It's just not a one size fits
all for anybody exactly. And just I just want to
make it clear to people that therapists and counselors can
call themselves a therapist or counselor without any training as well,
(24:37):
so just as they can become coaches. You can call
yourself a therapist and a counselor throw at a shingle,
charge one hundred and fifty two hundred dollars and have
people coming to see you in exactly the same way. So,
and they may or may not be registered with a
professional association if they had no training, they may not
be vetted, be able to succeed in that vetting, and
(25:00):
a member of a professional mental health association, but they
can still call themselves a counselor and a therapist. So, Danielle,
what should people look at when or think about when
they're hiring a coach?
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Yeah, I think step number one is to really consider
why it is you want to hire a coach. Again,
if we look back at or think back to the
initial conversation here, I think that a lot of people
don't understand what coaching is, even coaches. Some coaches don't
understand what coaching is. So really asking yourself, what is
the thing the goal here that I'm trying to achieve
(25:36):
or accomplish, and is a coach going to be the
best professional? I say that word loosely to help me
get to where I'm trying to be. And so if
we've done that sort of self reflection and we've recognized, yes,
I think that coaching is the right choice for me.
I would say to just be mindful in terms of
(25:57):
where you're seeking that support. So maybe not just clicking
on the first ad that you see on your Facebook
or Instagram and doing a little bit of research into
who it is you're trying to hire. So again, I
always recommend that you seek out reviews online. I would
also recommend you consult other people in your real life
(26:19):
to see their perspective. I know, for me, I've been
saved from a number of investments by simply just showing
my partner like, hey, I'm thinking about hiring a person
to help me with XYZ, and he's like, absolutely not,
that's a terrible idea. So that's a simple, simple solution.
But looking at pricing, you know a lot of these
especially in the coaching space, a lot of them charge
(26:40):
upwards of thousands and thousands of dollars for their services.
So if that's the case, perhaps reconsidering or finding a
lower cost option, looking at what it is they're promising
to help you with and understanding that if it sounds
too good to be true, it probably is remembering coaches
(27:01):
are not here to diagnose you, they're not here to
treat trauma, they're not here to replace the help of
a professional. And so if they say that they can
or do do any of those things, that they might
be operating unethically. And I guess really just looking for transparency,
so reading through their terms of service, seeing if they
offer things like a free consultation, refunds, that sort of thing,
(27:27):
and don't be afraid to just like directly reach out
to these people and ask questions, because if someone's being
vague or they're dodging the answers to things that you
want to know about, that's probably a red flag as well.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Right. One of the things that comes to mind as
you're talking is that because we know therapists who've lost
their license to practice can often turn to coaching and
continue on working. Yet the other thing that people can
do is search online to see whether or not that
(27:57):
person has been disciplined by any of the colleges or
regulatory boards or licensing boards or associations, even in the
association one of the associations here. Now, if somebody is
a member and they have a complaint against them, and
they resign in the middle of that investigation that is
(28:20):
noted on the website. And I think it's a little
covert in some ways because the regular average person out
there will look and will see that and not necessarily
know what that means. But for somebody like me, I
know when I see somebody resigned in the middle of
an investigation that they did something pretty bad, and so
(28:44):
it's that they can also go there just to kind
of root out if somebody has been a therapist before
and lost their license. Yeah, oh sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
I was just going to reiterate that explicitly asking people
for their credentials and their background and paying attention to
the response you get there. So if I'm asking you,
you know, what's your experience as a mental health coach,
and the person's kind of skirting around that answer, that's
definitely a time for you to go and explore what's
available freely online about these people.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I've actually heard of a therapist who told their client
that they had been a psycho therapist but they didn't
agree with the way that psychotherapy was being regulated, and
so they decided to give up their license and become
a coach. And of course that's like tons of red
flags flapping in your face at that point. Only if
(29:37):
you know what you're looking at and what you're hearing.
It may sound to somebody else as if the person
is being an altruistic therapist, wanting to do what's best
for their client, etc. We need to just take a
little break, folks, but we'll be right back.
Speaker 12 (29:51):
He turn me up. Qui get euons Queen sna Hi, everybody,
My name is quate Eywon's. I'm a member of the
Squamish nation, the Yaglanisklan of the Hyda Nation. You're listening
to co Op Radio CFRO one hundred point five FM.
We live, work, play and broadcast from the traditional ancestral
and unseeded territories of the Muscreham, Squamish and Slay with
(30:14):
Tooth nations.
Speaker 13 (30:20):
Maybe if fed in a common maybe it's nothing at all.
Sometimes change common pigy.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Just when we start to fall.
Speaker 13 (30:40):
Sometimes it's too for mel. You just gotta round. You
can't find what.
Speaker 10 (30:52):
You think.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
To do.
Speaker 13 (30:55):
Hold must feed down. But wherever up, forever you.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
Round, every road, He's leading you home forever mab the loud.
Speaker 13 (31:15):
Devery road, every rules, all those years of choice, carry
(31:36):
my product, my shame.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
H.
Speaker 13 (31:41):
There is his song.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
For every three d O game.
Speaker 13 (31:50):
Somedays lie before like a battle to be one. You
maybe be like I said, still the midday's work is done.
Speaker 5 (32:08):
But you walk rev wrong. Every roll he is saying
you for whatever they go for ever.
Speaker 13 (32:25):
Oh have roll, they roll, ladies walk.
Speaker 5 (32:41):
You've been an I don't know what to do such
no walls stops.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
My few.
Speaker 5 (32:52):
Then I saw your life finde never saying you all
for them on the lea singing all forever and they
(33:42):
re to.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
You. O. Listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver call up
Radio CFR one hundred point five FM. I'm Brennandine Fox
speaking with Danielle Ryan's about coaching scams. So, Danielle, you
were talking about sort of you know, how to kind
of check out a coach before going in to see them,
and some of the things to think about. Can you
tell us some of the things that you've heard of
(34:22):
and or have have presented on your YouTube channel about
things that have happened to people. How does this set out?
Speaker 4 (34:29):
Absolutely? So, I've been fortunate enough now at this point
to have sat down face to face with close to
fifty people I think who were either victims of a
coaching scam, former coaches themselves, or just observers of the industry.
And it's been pretty wild and honestly quite heartbreaking to
(34:53):
hear some of these stories. You know, in a lot
of the circumstances, regardless of what type of coaching it is,
spiritual life, coaching, mental health business, whatever. I think one
of the most common, or not just one, many of
the most common threads amongst those stories is the tens
of thousands of dollars people have lost to getting duped
(35:15):
by a coach, but also the emotional and psychological harm
that has resulted from those experiences. And I mean I
can speak to this from my own coaching experience, the
amount of shame and self blame that gets placed for
not having that level of awareness that we spoke to earlier,
(35:35):
of realizing or recognizing the scam before it took place,
and just having to come to terms with the manipulative
tactics that were used in order to get you to
hand over your money. I mean, I spoke to a
woman last week, her interview was just published, who was
struggling with bipolar disorder and had been in and out
(35:56):
of the psych ward and I share this story. She
shared the story openly on the channel, so I'm not
doxing her by any means. But she had been in
and out of the psych word while she was working
with a coach who had actually re traumatized her through
their coaching relationship, and had asked to end the coaching
program and said, you know, I'm obviously not in a
(36:19):
good place psychologically. I was hoping we could cut the
relationship here and you know, get refunded for services not rendered,
and the coach essentially just ghosted her. And when in
they were part of a spiritual community together, and she
went into that community and basically turned everyone against the
individual who was the victim here. And it's just stories.
(36:42):
Hearing stories like that really just opens my eyes to
just how much nonsense is happening in this space. Specifically,
I believe because there is no repercussion, so this coach
can act in this way, she can take this per
sense money and turn her whole community against her and
(37:02):
there's no recourse. She can now carry on and find
a new victim. So it's really just so heartbreaking to
have to hear story after story after story of these
people who just wanted to do something better for themselves
and ended up in a worse off position than where
they started.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
O kidding, And this was a mental health coach.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
This was so she called herself, like a spiritual healing mentor.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Oh okay, oh, that sounds so much like therapy abuse
and exploitation and the grooming that includes making somebody dependent
and love bombing them and getting them to trust them
or demanding trust or and then the exploitation, which in
(37:47):
this case seems mostly financial as far as I can
tell that. We can talk about that in a bit.
And then what happens to people when they're discarded by
these abusive therapists who can no longer exploit them. Once
that happens, they discard them, and that in that the
harm that's done is catastrophic, and I don't think people
(38:08):
understand the level of that damage and the deep damage
that can happen to people. And even the stuff where
you know the person is being re traumatized by the
community around that person and that they are supporting the
spiritual hero and not the client that's been harmed. We
(38:30):
see that happening in the mental health industry all the time,
where the industry itself sort of is still in many
ways enabling and protecting the offenders the abuse of therapists.
And they sometimes it's out of naivete and not understanding
what they're looking at, or not being trained and what
(38:50):
they're looking at. But other times it is because they
have their own skin in the game and may have
exploited their own clients as well. And until we get
to the place where this is onboard and you know,
on the table, I should say, and being looked at, well,
we're not going to really know why people do the
(39:11):
things that they're doing. But certainly what you described with
this client is happening in therapy abuse and exploitation as well.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
I actually have a question for you, and this is
just this conversation about the parallels we're seeing here. I
would be curious. I know from the conversations I've had,
a common theme is you know, you invest in one coach,
you have a negative relationship, and again, because of the
shame and the guilt that's associated with that, a lot
of these people will assume like, oh, it was my fault.
I just made a bad choice in choosing who my
(39:40):
coach was going to be. Maybe I'll hire somebody else
and they're going to, you know, be the one that
helps me solve this problem. Is that something that you
see in therapy exploitation, wherein I have a negative experience
with a therapist, so I think, oh, well, maybe it
was just that guy and I just need to go
find somebody else.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Actually it is, but it's slightly different, and that mental
health consumers, people who live with mental health challenges are
told that by the world, by society. They're told go
and see a therapist, and if it doesn't work, it's
your fault. The mental health industry is also kind of
set up to make it the client's fault. You didn't
(40:16):
work hard enough, you weren't able to trust well enough,
you weren't able to open up, you weren't willing to
do the homework I gave you. You weren't you know.
They have a lot of ways that they blame the client.
So it may be an internal thing, and certainly shame
and guilt are huge because I consider a trauma survivor
(40:36):
going to see an abusive therapist unknowingly being exploited. And
then we can add, we can add sexualized trauma and
being sexually exploited when they finally realize what has gone
on and how they've been duped. They have to also
unpack all of that. Well not just unpacket, but they
(40:58):
have to recognize on some level, well, they participated in
their own victimization because we didn't know what was going on.
They were told this is fine, this is what you
need to do. Some therapists call it treatment. You know,
you have to have sex with me because I'll heal you,
you know. And so we're taught to believe the therapist.
We're taught not to necessarily question a therapist or question
(41:21):
what they're doing. And if you have a good therapist,
they're going to teach you ethical guidelines properly. If you
have a bad therapist, they're going to teach you ethical
guidelines that fit how they want to exploit you. And so,
because we're groomed literally in society to go and trust
the therapist is there to help us, we put our
critical thinking aside to get that help and do the work.
(41:45):
And so shame becomes a big part of it.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
Yeah, and I think that, ever, their fault.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
And I just want to clearly say that after saying
all of that, it is never the client's fault for
what a therapist did, it's always one hundred percent their
fault no matter what. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
And I think that those group environments particularly can be
incredibly dangerous. And I know in coaching it's super popular
to have you know, memberships, group programs, that kind of thing.
And I was actually just reading a story yesterday for
YouTube where this woman was talking about she was in
like a manifestation coaching program and she wasn't getting results
(42:24):
after paying this coach, and so she just started, you know,
asking questions in this Facebook group, why is in XYZ working?
And she started to notice that the group leader was
deleting any comments that were either questioning the methods or
simply just statements that it wasn't working were being removed
from the group. And I think any kind of environment,
(42:45):
whether it's in a professional mental health setting or coaching,
wherein you're basically being told think what I tell you
to think and do as I tell you to do,
is incredibly incredibly dangerous and a very slippery too, because
if everyone around you is believing the same things that
you're all being told to believe, it's like cult like behavior,
(43:08):
and I think it's very hard to see your way
out of that.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
It is very hard to see, especially if everybody around
you is normalizing it. It's very hard to find your
own feet and stand on them and say no, this
is what I'm seeing and stand in that. It's difficult,
especially if what you have is in front of you
a spiritual healing mentor. I mean that sounds pretty cool,
(43:32):
like great. I mean I would have no idea how
to do spiritual healing, so I would be inclined to
if that's what I felt I needed to believe whatever
that person is telling me, because it seems so far
beyond anything I know. Can you tell us a little
bit more about the kinds of stories you hear.
Speaker 14 (43:50):
For sure?
Speaker 4 (43:51):
I mean it's a wide array, as I've mentioned, of
all different things. I'm one particular story is coming to
mind right now of a woman who she was autistic
and struggled a lot with building personal relationships in her life.
So she had just gone through losing some close relatives
(44:11):
and was struggling a little bit mentally, and so she
ended up reaching out to a relationship coach in hopes
of learning how to foster deeper connections in her personal life.
And so, long story short, essentially what happened was this
relationship coach, rather than teaching her the actual skills and
(44:32):
techniques to be able to build other relationships beyond the
coaching relationship, essentially just fostered a codependent relationship with the client,
wherein the client continued to pay her upwards of tens
of thousands of dollars. She had just received an inheritance
from the relative that had passed away, And the whole
(44:54):
story was just incredibly tragic and heartbreaking because essentially this
coach convinced her, you know, just keep paying me and
I will help you solve this problem. And once again,
same situation I've heard time and time again. She's giving
her thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to essentially
pay for the friendship of this coach, and once the
(45:15):
money ran out, the friendship ran out as well. And
so it's just I feel like I created this platform
so people could feel seen and heard in their experience.
But the more and more people I talk to, the
more I start to recognize that it's just all too common.
You know, I can replace your story with my story,
with her story, and at the end of the day,
(45:37):
it all follows sort of the same framework and the
same principles, and it's really just so heartbreaking to bear
witness too.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
In therapy ab use and exploitation, we call that the playbook,
because we also have the same thing, the same story,
over and over and over, and with the same grooming techniques,
the same kinds of exploitation, and the same retaliation in
the terminal phase where they are working to silence or
discredit their victims. In fact, the parallels between coaching scams
(46:08):
and therapy abuse and exploitation are so close that I'm
having a hard time separating them. Can you tell us
a little bit about what happens to people? What's a
common outcome for people who've gone through this?
Speaker 4 (46:22):
For sure, obviously a lot of heartache, a lot of confusion.
I think many people end their coaching relationships and are
unsure of what to do next. I think that aside
from the significant financial loss that many people experience. I mean,
I've spoken with people with hundreds of thousands of dollars
(46:44):
of debt from coaching programs, but beyond that, really just
learning how to recover. So many people end up in
these situations where they've been so dependent on this other
person for so long that they've kind of lost sight
of themselves and what's important to them, especially those in
those group environments again where we're being taught what to
(47:05):
think and what to say and how to feel about things.
When we extract ourselves from those situations, well, what is
really important to me? What do I actually value? How
am I supposed to function in a world outside of
the coaching bubble that I've lived in for in many
cases years and years and years, and so I think
a lot of the times it really just comes down
(47:26):
to people then seeking out alternative resources and supports in
some cases that is actually therapy or you know, support
groups and other things that exist online now to try
and find their footing, figure out who they are beyond
or who they used to be before all of this happened.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Can I just go through some of the well known
common outcomes for therapy of use and exploitated clients and
just see whether or not you've heard of these in
the therapy not therapy, in the coaching environment as well.
What about self harm.
Speaker 4 (48:06):
In some cases?
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Yes, okay, suicide squid? I sorry, hold on one second,
I don't know what happened to my throat, It just
went weird. Hold on, God, what about suicide or suicidal ideation. Absolutely,
(48:28):
just so we know, you know, in therapy use and exploitation,
suicidal ideation, attempting or committing suicide is many, many, many
times greater in this population, the therapy use and exploitation
victim population, than any other victim group. So what about distrust?
(48:49):
What about their their ability to trust?
Speaker 4 (48:52):
Absolutely, I would say that's one of the biggest ones,
because again, after you lose all that money, you lose
all that time, it's really difficult for you to think,
you know, who actually does have my best interest in
mine in terms of any service provider that you hire from.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
There on exactly, And how could I have done this? Shame?
We talked about that. What about anxiety.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
Definitely, and I think that tuch ties into the distrust
of you know, and the shame and the guilt of
so many anxious feelings around like how could I have
been so stupid? How could I have not seen it?
But also again, who am I beyond this? And how
do I figure that out?
Speaker 1 (49:30):
And going from somebody a relationship where you're dependent on
that person to being set afloat basically exactly trying to
figure out how to do all that Again, panic attacks, yep, CPTSD.
Definitely Stockholm syndrome. Do I need to explain that? Maybe
I do for my listeners. Stockholm syndrome is a syndrome
(49:52):
which where the victim actually protects the offender and will
work to make sure they're okay. And we see that
with people in therapy abuse and exploitation before they've kind
of figured out what happened to them, they are set
up and groomed to in fact protect their abusive therapists.
(50:13):
So I don't know whether or not that happens in coaching.
Speaker 4 (50:15):
I can assure you this is alive and well based
on the comment section of my YouTube.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Channey right, Okay, just regulation and that's kind of not
quite anxiety or panic attacks. It's more just not being
able to regulate your own emotional content for yourself, and
so you're just unable to function. So you're at risk
of losing your job, your friends, your house, your livelihood,
(50:41):
your children because you can't cope.
Speaker 4 (50:44):
Absolutely. I actually just spoke with a woman This interview
hasn't been published yet, but a woman whose partner got
you know, sucked into the coaching world so far to
the point that they ended up separating and now, well,
this isn't even a byproduct of like this particular woman
being the victim of coaching, but because her partner became
(51:06):
so deeply engrossed in the cult of coaching, she herself
is now experiencing that dysregulation in the aftermath of that,
trying to figure out how this even happened.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
Right, So, if I'm right, her partner was the one
that engaged in the coach and she is having a
consequence to that, exactly. Yeah, And we find that with
therapy abuse and exploitation as well, that we tend to
think binary. We have a therapist and a client, and
what is happening is happening between the two of them,
but in fact the harm filters out to their family
(51:40):
and friends and children and ex partners, for sure. So
tell people where they can find your podcast.
Speaker 4 (51:48):
For sure. You can find me on YouTube. I published
videos every single week. It's Danielle Ryan everywhere on the internet.
So I'm also on Instagram, TikTok, all that good stuff.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Okay, So if you need to get a hold of Danielle,
you can just google her and you will be able
to find her. Actually did it myself. It was crea
easy to find you. Thank you so thank you, Danielle.
This has been very actually very interesting, and I think
it's an important topic that those two things that are
(52:18):
happening in the world, coaching scams and therapy, abuse and exploitation,
the parallels are so consistent that we need to be
in touch with each other to keep moving ahead and
making sure these things are stopped so people can live
their life.
Speaker 4 (52:33):
For sure, very valuable conversations to be had. Thank you
so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Oh, you're welcome, and that's it. Folks will be right back.
Speaker 14 (52:54):
Sometimes it seems we're all running around in our own directions.
Sometimes it seems we've forgotten which way to turn. Sometimes
it seems all we see is the light of our
own reflection. Catton, the flame of the bridges we have burned.
Speaker 3 (53:23):
There, arrange ChEls who are come on us, helping, shearing,
shining lights, crash, save jees.
Speaker 15 (53:41):
Hear us, guide us things. We'll walk with you.
Speaker 10 (53:52):
And everything will be all live.
Speaker 14 (53:58):
Sometimes it seems life's the jigsaw.
Speaker 10 (54:02):
Puzzle with one he's missing.
Speaker 14 (54:06):
Sometimes it seems we've all lost the rules to the game,
and all we really want our magic wants to keep
on wishing someone might remembers my name.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
Arrange Gems who are coming ups helping, sharing, shining light,
paciously jees here a man as.
Speaker 10 (54:49):
Guide us things. We'll walk with you. Everything will be all.
Speaker 3 (55:03):
Not Father.
Speaker 10 (55:06):
Winds are still folded.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
Watching we un quite ready to see what we fain.
Speaker 14 (55:20):
Mistakes along life streams are the still a little bit
of the angels in.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
New Wand we.
Speaker 3 (55:32):
Rangengeants. You are coming u helping shine, shineing lights, rush
save Jones here among.
Speaker 10 (55:52):
Guy us. We'll walk with you. Guid We'll walk with you.
(56:14):
Everything will be.
Speaker 16 (56:23):
Vancouver Cooperative Radio is an innovative, nonprofit community radio station
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(56:46):
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Speaker 14 (57:07):
Community based radio.
Speaker 16 (57:09):
Donate today by visiting Coop radio dot org forward slash donate.
We're calling six oh four six eight four eight four
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four nine four.
Speaker 1 (57:25):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver, CA up Radio
CFR one hundred point five I FM. I'm Brenandine Fox
and that's our show. My thanks to Danielle Ryan from
coaching Scams on YouTube for joining us today to help
us understand how to protect ourselves when engaging with coaches,
whether it is a business to mental health coach. Our
music today was by Alrich, Lauren and Wallace, and my
(57:47):
thanks goes out to you for joining us today. Stay
safe out there. You've just listened to Rethreading Madness, where
we dare to change how we think about mental health.
We air live on Vancouver co Op Radios R one
hundred point five FM every Tuesday at five pm or
online at co opradio dot org. If you have questions
(58:08):
or feedback about this program, or want to share your
story or have something to say to us, we want
to hear from you. You can reach us by email
rethreading Madness at co opradio dot org. This is Bernardine Fox.
We'll be back next week. Until then, when.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
I've ever been further, No, what the hell I'm gonna
do when I can't see the fine the way under
over to just want to ready and give the life
(58:49):
they are when we turn out the lights in It's sorry,
it's all right, go to.
Speaker 13 (59:00):
It'll be all right.
Speaker 5 (59:03):
Why don't always believe but when you're.
Speaker 2 (59:07):
Telling me everything's gonna be all right? Yeah, Why don't
I wonder how you know?
Speaker 10 (59:24):
Surely you don't have all of the facts.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
You could be just making it up. Why don't I
ever think of that?
Speaker 1 (59:40):
It's some kind imagine in.
Speaker 10 (59:42):
The words that you read.
Speaker 2 (59:45):
Saying, baby, take it from me, it's all right, it's
all right
Speaker 15 (59:53):
Don't too, will be all right, assass
You're listening to Vancouver coll Op Radio cfr oh one
hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Musquam and Slighway Tooth
nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernadine Fox, and
this is this show that dares to change how we
think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
When have ever been further.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
No?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
What the hell I'm gonna do when I can't sing
a fine away under over to?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
They're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver coll Oup Radio
cfr oh one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernadine Fox
and today I have Danielle Ryan with me. She has
a really popular YouTube program that she does on coaching scams,
and I really wanted her to come and talk with
us because, as you know, we do a lot of
work around therapy, abuse and exploitation on this program, and
(01:07):
what we're finding is that therapist when they lose their license,
often will become coaches because they don't need a license,
but maybe they do. Danielle tell us who you are
for sure.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Thank you so much for having me as Vernon Dean mentioned.
My name is Danielle. I am a content creator based
here in Vancouver as well, and I actually started my
journey as a business owner about seven years ago now,
when I decided to quit my job and open a
yoga studio in Ontario. And in that time, I actually
(01:40):
had hired a business coach and it was a whole
situation in itself where I essentially ended up losing close
to five thousand dollars to this person who promised me
one thing and delivered something else, which I'm sure we
can get into later. But flash forward a few years.
I ended up moving out here to the West Coast,
and I I started this YouTube channel where I was
(02:01):
actually sharing my experience as a business owner, and on
a bit of a whim, decided to recount that story
of hiring this coach and having a negative experience, and
it seemed to really resonate with people, and from that
point on, I started getting people reaching out to me,
not just about business coaches, but about life coaches, spiritual coaches,
(02:22):
all different sorts of shady behavior that was happening in
the coaching space specifically, and so I really kind of
latched onto that and started investigating it.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Further and now where.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Another two years along the road, and it's just wild
what I've learned in that time. And so I have
my own business now that I run, and then I
also have this YouTube channel, and I'm just really excited
to get into the conversation with you today.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Can you tell us how coaches are trained? Do they
have to have training to call themselves a coach?
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Yeah, that's a great question because the coaching industry itself,
I would say, operates in a largely or predominantly gray area.
So there is no sort of governing body for the
coaching industry, which essentially means that anyone could wake up
on any given day and just decide to slap the
title of coach on themselves, regardless of whether or not
(03:13):
they have any formal education or not. So while training
programs do exist, they aren't mandated or mandatory by any means.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So if you're seeing a coach, what is their job?
What are they supposed to do?
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I think if we look at the traditional definition of coaching,
a coach should be someone who asks very powerful questions,
pointed questions in an effort to try and guide you
to discovering your own answers. So typically you would hire
a coach if you have a specific goal in mind
that you want assistants in helping to achieve. So, I know,
(03:51):
like in my own experience, I started my business with
no experience, and I just wanted someone that was going
to kind of guide me on how to make it
a successful venture. And so I think in the context
of any type of coaching, it's typically like I'm facing
this particular challenge and I just want someone that's gonna,
you know, ask me those questions to help me figure
out how to get to where I want to be.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, that's kind of my idea when I think about
coaching and the times that I thought about maybe hiring
a coach. I never did, but I always felt that
I would be interacting with somebody who knew the path
and was well versed in that path and knew exactly
all the steps I needed to take to get where
I needed to be. Is that kind of what a
coach should be? Is that kind of the same thing
(04:33):
you said exactly.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
I think that sometimes there can be a little bit
of confusion, and this is amongst coaches themselves or people
outside the coaching industry. No one really seems to understand
truly whether or not a coach is supposed to like
tell you what to do per se. And I think again,
if we look at like the formal definition, the role
of a coach isn't necessarily to say, you know, follow
(04:57):
step one, step two, step three, to just ask you
what you think is the right next step and how
that would feel. And I think that I mentioned this
because it again it creates this sort of gray area
where because no one's really sure what credentials the coach
should have or what specific they're supposed to help us with.
Then when we get into these programs, we pay these
(05:20):
people and we don't get results, well, then was it
really my responsibility as the coach to teach you how.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
To do that?
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Anyway, it makes it the whole situation very very murky,
because it is quite unclear.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Is there a governing body for coaches? Is there a
place that people go to get trained or become registered
coaches like we have for therapists.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
For sure, So this is an interesting question because depending
who you ask, you might get a different answer. There
are particular governing bodies we can call them very loosely,
that do exist. So one that is quite well known
is the International Coaching Federation or the ICF, and so
so essentially they they effort to be a governing body
(06:03):
wherein they have like a code of ethics, they create
guidelines for what coaching programs need to include or not include,
and that sort of thing. But there is again no
real official governing body that says, like, if you want
to be a life coach, you have to be trained
through the ICF. So I mean, when I first opened
my yoga studio, I actually keep in mind I was
(06:24):
twenty six years old at the time. I thought, why
don't I become a life coach, and so I went
on youdome dot com and paid like thirteen dollars for
a quote unquote certification that was not ICF certified, but
I got a certificate at the end that said I
was a certified life coach. And so, yes, there's a
governing body, but there's no actual enforcement in terms of
(06:47):
like from the actual government. It's just kind of like
this large organization that says they're in charge. But at
the end of the day, anyone can still call themselves
a coach.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So, just so that I'm clear, you paid thirteen dollars
and got a certificate. Did you have any training or
did you were you vetted? Did you have to prove
that you were a life coach? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (07:07):
So it was like a stereotypical online course, like I
think there was like eight hours worth of modules that
you would watched. There was homework you would submit, but
in retrospect, it's like who's actually reviewing that material? There
was no mandatory amount of hours I needed to complete
to prove that I had.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
This skill set.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Okay, I could have just as easily logged on and
clicked next, next, next, next, next, till I got to
the end of the program.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Right exactly. So this ICF, are they able to hold
coaches accountable if they don't follow the ethical guidelines.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
In a sense? Sure. So let's say I got a
certification through an ICF accredited institution and six months down
the line, a client reports me to the ICF for
acting unethically. The ICF might then strip my credentials, but again,
because they don't actually have any authority, there's nothing stopping
me from still continuing to call myself just a regular
(08:00):
and advertise my services as such.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
And is that their only penalty is to strip your
certificate from you?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
I believe. So, yeah, it would be you lose your
ICF certification, but again it doesn't really hold any weight
in the first place.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Right, And that's kind of where we're at with thousands
upon thousands upon thousands of therapists and counselors INBC who
may or may not be trained, but are a part
of a professional association that is a nonprofit organization, whether
it's an association or a society. And when a complaint
comes forward, and I know this personally, you send in
(08:39):
a complaint and the person you're complaining about resigns their membership,
the investigative file is just closed, that's it, and a
person goes on continuing to do therapy because they can.
There is no regulation in the province of BC that
somebody can't call themselves a therapist or a counselor if
(09:00):
they haven't been trained and certified as such. So what
kind of coaches are there, like in terms of you know,
the types of coaches.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Literally anything you could absolutely imagine. There are relationship coaches,
divorce coaches, life coaches, business coaches, career coaches. You want
to pick any obscure thing, a pregnancy coach, like, it
doesn't matter you come up with a word slap the
title coach next to it. It probably exists.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
That's so, and you've been doing your YouTube program. Sorry,
I think is that what you call it? A YouTube program?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
My YouTube channel. I've been at a channel twenty twenty two,
so almost three years now.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Three years, and so I'm sure that you've heard exactly
that that there's all different kinds of coaches. So what's
the difference between a coach and a mentor?
Speaker 4 (09:51):
For sure? Again, I think it comes back to that
initial definition of the coach being someone that's just supposed
to ask you those powerful questions help you kind of
navigate things on your own. I would refer to them
more as like a support in terms of like they're
kind of guiding you, but they're not necessarily telling you
what to do. I think when it comes to something
like mentorship, that's when you would typically be seeking out
(10:13):
someone who has that direct experience related to whatever you're
trying to accomplish, and they're more likely to actually show you,
you know, step one you should do this, step two
you should do this, and then also maybe combining a
little bit of that coaching so it's slightly more hands on.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I would say, right, and clearly there are also mental
health coaches.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Yes, oh dear God, yes.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
So tell me about mental health coaches, because that's what
we deal with here. We deal with mental health, for sure.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
So mental health coaching, I think is probably one of
the most fascinating ones that I've seen specifically in that
I think a lot of the times it kind of
again gets really blurry because these people are essentially, in
many cases, I won't say all, but many mental health
(11:08):
coaches are sort of cause playing I would say, as
an actual mental health professional, so whether that's a therapist,
whether that's a psychologist, whatever, and they're essentially from the
ones that I again have looked at, seem to be
essentially wanting to lead people under the idea that like,
(11:31):
I have the skills to help you overcome again insert
issue here, whether it's PTSD, it's some other kind of trauma,
some kind of ADHD, mental health disorder, whatever, I typically
it comes from the lens of like I have it,
I overcame it, now I can help you, And so
they use that to try and convince you that they
(11:52):
can help you solve whatever problem you're facing, regardless of
whether or not they do actually have the credentials or
understanding to be able to do so.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Is there any mechanism within the field, which, when I
say that sounds so scattered, I can't imagine that your
answer is going to be yes. That allows people who
are entertaining the idea of using a coach that they
can go to and sort of find out whether or
(12:22):
not they should take this kind of coach or that
kind of coach, or if coaching is for them, or
is there anything like that.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Yeah, Like again, I guess the ICF tries to have
those resources, like they have blog posts and whatever that
kind of go over This is when you should hire
a coach, this is when you shouldn't. But in terms
of like one specific database, I guess not. Okay, but
I think like there again, because so many people are
having these conversations now, particularly those who have been burned
(12:52):
by the industry, there is a lot of information available
freely online, Like if you just search coaching scam, I'm
sure you'll get tons of articles, reddit posts, YouTube videos,
et cetera.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And is there any review board or place that somebody
can go to and see whether or not somebody they're
thinking of going to has been complained about or has
already committed a scam of some kind.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Not formally, but I would say I always encourage people
to search like first name, last name, Reddit and see
if anyone has posted there, because that's one place that
people can do so anonymously, so it's often quite insightful.
And then also, like Trust Pilot, Better Business Bureau, a
lot of larger named coaches have records there.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Of okay things like that. So we're gonna take a
little break, but when we come back, we're going to
talk some more with Danielle about coaching scams and how
we can figure out who's who and what's what and
what are the red flags. So we'll be right back.
Folks do, and they.
Speaker 6 (14:20):
Flow through my heart, but I don't know where they go. Still,
I find a friend. We're all time whispering to me
in my mind, Oh.
Speaker 7 (14:40):
Excuse me, take.
Speaker 8 (14:45):
Me home tonight, O tell me other things. You're gonna
be out. Sometimes it works.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
On your side.
Speaker 9 (15:05):
Other times, if not, to say, he s there's someone
who will team all the blame is she?
Speaker 10 (15:16):
Then in my mind?
Speaker 7 (15:22):
She in my mind, it's gonna win ty tonight. Join
(15:43):
the other thing's gonna be all right.
Speaker 10 (16:10):
Oh to the moon, Take me home to that.
Speaker 8 (16:26):
Tell me everything.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
He's going to be.
Speaker 8 (16:28):
Our month, fast, a month, a year.
Speaker 10 (16:36):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
We'll time go.
Speaker 10 (16:43):
Giad to time, races, a ride, seasons, come.
Speaker 6 (16:50):
And go, oh.
Speaker 8 (17:00):
Ho today, tell me other thing.
Speaker 9 (17:11):
It's gonna be out bassill.
Speaker 8 (17:21):
Me today, Tell me everything, jell me everything, Tell me everything.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Me your.
Speaker 11 (17:47):
Hi, folks, this is Steve ferguson your twenty first century
schizoid Man, and I'm the host of prog Rock Alley,
inviting you to come down and listen to our show
every week at Monday one am the very end of
the weekend. We will be looking at all forms of
progressive rock. I'm talking about space rock, art rock, math rock, fusion, jazz.
(18:08):
You want it, I got it. Just name it, I'll
play it. We'll see you again. That's here on CFRO
one hundred point five co Op Radio Monday mornings one am.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver cop Radio CFRO
one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox speaking with
Danielle Ryan, who has a YouTube channel on coaching scams. So, Danielle,
thank you for doing this with us. It's a very
important topic and I suspect a lot of people don't
know about it unless you've experienced it. Am I right?
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Oh, one hundred percent. I think when I think back
to my own experience, I look at the stories that
I've been told by individuals that watch my content A
lot of the time. You know, you get snarky comments
on YouTube, just like anywhere on the internet. You know,
why would any button be stupid to fall for this?
And I think that people tend to really not understand
(19:06):
the vulnerability that goes into, like first of all, why
people fall through these coaching scams, but also the fact that,
like the solutions that are being presented to you are
so enticing that there is no possible way that you
would even think to register that it could potentially be
a scam until you give your money and end up
recognizing through going through it that it's not what it
(19:29):
appears to be.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So I frea go back to mental health coaching. You
mentioned that it's particularly dangerous. Can you talk a little
bit about that.
Speaker 10 (19:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
I think one of the most common things that I've
seen in the content that I've looked at, specifically on
my channel is a lot of these mental health coaches
claiming to help you heal your trauma or cure your trauma,
which obviously I think at face value, can people I
listening to this might be able to understand why that
(20:02):
is incredibly dangerous. But if we look back at our
previous conversation and we think about how we're operating within
an unregulated industry, there isn't really a governing body that's
going to reprimand people for not following any kind of
ethical boundaries. And if we take that sort of environment
and match it with these people with no skill set,
(20:25):
no credential, no education in many cases offering to help
you heal your trauma, AKA put you in a situation
where we're likely going to unearth previous experiences you've been
through without the proper sort of safeguards in place. I
guess you could say, I think that it just creates
an environment in which really bad things can happen. And
(20:48):
I mean, I've discussed one on one, there's a number
of interviews on my channel with people who have been
re traumatized from hiring coaches who claim to be able
to help them with their PTSD or whatever kind of
mental health issues they were facing. And then also I
think it can sometimes in certain cases foster a codependent
relationship because you're coming into this coaching relationship with this
(21:12):
mental health coach who promises to be able to help
you overcome whatever traumatic instances you face in your lifetime.
Maybe you don't have access to other people or relationships
in your life that have been supportive with that specific
situation that you're dealing with, and now this coach comes
in and leverages that essentially acting as a friend or
(21:34):
a confidant again because those ethical boundaries aren't super clear,
but in many cases are often doing that for their
own financial gain. So it really is just this wild
mix of someone being in a really vulnerable position, finding
a mental health coach who is promising to be able
(21:54):
to help heal them, giving them money in exchange for
that service, and then ending up in this very dependent
relationship where the only way they're going to quote unquote
benefit from it is to continue to give them more
and more money.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
And to continue to be dependent on them.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Exactly right.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I mean that is a goal of therapy, and we
sort of we lose sight of that. And I know
this isn't therapy, but often it's a lost thing, and
that you go to therapy, and your counselor's job is
to work themselves out of the job. That's what they
should be doing. And it sounds like, well, we know
some counselors don't do that, and it sounds like some
(22:35):
mental health coaches are also not doing that. There are
some crossovers there that pertain to therapy abuse and exploitation,
like creating the dependency certainly having the other one that
I keep thinking must be here just because of what
that other person said, you know, saying why would people
(22:56):
be taken in like this? Is that people go into
therapy U and I would imagine coaching not knowing what
that process is. They are told, go to therapy, you
need to see a therapist. Go trust the therapist, say
whatever you need to say. And if you're not telling them,
you're not trusting them enough, you're not doing your work,
you're not working hard enough. And so people go sort
of blinded or not blinded, but blind to the process
(23:19):
or what to expect or what should or shouldn't happen.
We don't know the ethical guidelines for the therapist. They
know them, and a good therapist is going to say
to their client, this is the ethical guideline here, and
a bad therapist is going to say, we don't need
to worry about that, we can transgress, that it's all okay.
And so what you're describing to me is very similar
(23:40):
to what we see happening with abusive therapists.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
And I think it's almost exacerbated in coaching specifically again
because there is that lack of regulation and many coaches
don't have a certification or they've never even read through
a code of ethics or know what that even is
to then have something to uphold their behavior too, because
they don't know, so they're just like the blind leading
(24:06):
the blind. I did this thing to overcome my trauma whatever,
and now I'm just going to teach you what I did,
even if it's not necessarily safe for you.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yes, and disregarding the fact that everybody's healing process is
different and the variables that go into that are completely
different for everybody. It's just not a one size fits
all for anybody exactly. And just I just want to
make it clear to people that therapists and counselors can
call themselves a therapist or counselor without any training as well,
(24:37):
so just as they can become coaches. You can call
yourself a therapist and a counselor throw at a shingle,
charge one hundred and fifty two hundred dollars and have
people coming to see you in exactly the same way. So,
and they may or may not be registered with a
professional association if they had no training, they may not
be vetted, be able to succeed in that vetting, and
(25:00):
a member of a professional mental health association, but they
can still call themselves a counselor and a therapist. So, Danielle,
what should people look at when or think about when
they're hiring a coach?
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Yeah, I think step number one is to really consider
why it is you want to hire a coach. Again,
if we look back at or think back to the
initial conversation here, I think that a lot of people
don't understand what coaching is, even coaches. Some coaches don't
understand what coaching is. So really asking yourself, what is
the thing the goal here that I'm trying to achieve
(25:36):
or accomplish, and is a coach going to be the
best professional? I say that word loosely to help me
get to where I'm trying to be. And so if
we've done that sort of self reflection and we've recognized, yes,
I think that coaching is the right choice for me.
I would say to just be mindful in terms of
(25:57):
where you're seeking that support. So maybe not just clicking
on the first ad that you see on your Facebook
or Instagram and doing a little bit of research into
who it is you're trying to hire. So again, I
always recommend that you seek out reviews online. I would
also recommend you consult other people in your real life
(26:19):
to see their perspective. I know, for me, I've been
saved from a number of investments by simply just showing
my partner like, hey, I'm thinking about hiring a person
to help me with XYZ, and he's like, absolutely not,
that's a terrible idea. So that's a simple, simple solution.
But looking at pricing, you know a lot of these
especially in the coaching space, a lot of them charge
(26:40):
upwards of thousands and thousands of dollars for their services.
So if that's the case, perhaps reconsidering or finding a
lower cost option, looking at what it is they're promising
to help you with and understanding that if it sounds
too good to be true, it probably is remembering coaches
(27:01):
are not here to diagnose you, they're not here to
treat trauma, they're not here to replace the help of
a professional. And so if they say that they can
or do do any of those things, that they might
be operating unethically. And I guess really just looking for transparency,
so reading through their terms of service, seeing if they
offer things like a free consultation, refunds, that sort of thing,
(27:27):
and don't be afraid to just like directly reach out
to these people and ask questions, because if someone's being
vague or they're dodging the answers to things that you
want to know about, that's probably a red flag as well.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Right. One of the things that comes to mind as
you're talking is that because we know therapists who've lost
their license to practice can often turn to coaching and
continue on working. Yet the other thing that people can
do is search online to see whether or not that
(27:57):
person has been disciplined by any of the colleges or
regulatory boards or licensing boards or associations, even in the
association one of the associations here. Now, if somebody is
a member and they have a complaint against them, and
they resign in the middle of that investigation that is
(28:20):
noted on the website. And I think it's a little
covert in some ways because the regular average person out
there will look and will see that and not necessarily
know what that means. But for somebody like me, I
know when I see somebody resigned in the middle of
an investigation that they did something pretty bad, and so
(28:44):
it's that they can also go there just to kind
of root out if somebody has been a therapist before
and lost their license. Yeah, oh sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
I was just going to reiterate that explicitly asking people
for their credentials and their background and paying attention to
the response you get there. So if I'm asking you,
you know, what's your experience as a mental health coach,
and the person's kind of skirting around that answer, that's
definitely a time for you to go and explore what's
available freely online about these people.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I've actually heard of a therapist who told their client
that they had been a psycho therapist but they didn't
agree with the way that psychotherapy was being regulated, and
so they decided to give up their license and become
a coach. And of course that's like tons of red
flags flapping in your face at that point. Only if
(29:37):
you know what you're looking at and what you're hearing.
It may sound to somebody else as if the person
is being an altruistic therapist, wanting to do what's best
for their client, etc. We need to just take a
little break, folks, but we'll be right back.
Speaker 12 (29:51):
He turn me up. Qui get euons Queen sna Hi, everybody,
My name is quate Eywon's. I'm a member of the
Squamish nation, the Yaglanisklan of the Hyda Nation. You're listening
to co Op Radio CFRO one hundred point five FM.
We live, work, play and broadcast from the traditional ancestral
and unseeded territories of the Muscreham, Squamish and Slay with
(30:14):
Tooth nations.
Speaker 13 (30:20):
Maybe if fed in a common maybe it's nothing at all.
Sometimes change common pigy.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Just when we start to fall.
Speaker 13 (30:40):
Sometimes it's too for mel. You just gotta round. You
can't find what.
Speaker 10 (30:52):
You think.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
To do.
Speaker 13 (30:55):
Hold must feed down. But wherever up, forever you.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
Round, every road, He's leading you home forever mab the loud.
Speaker 13 (31:15):
Devery road, every rules, all those years of choice, carry
(31:36):
my product, my shame.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
H.
Speaker 13 (31:41):
There is his song.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
For every three d O game.
Speaker 13 (31:50):
Somedays lie before like a battle to be one. You
maybe be like I said, still the midday's work is done.
Speaker 5 (32:08):
But you walk rev wrong. Every roll he is saying
you for whatever they go for ever.
Speaker 13 (32:25):
Oh have roll, they roll, ladies walk.
Speaker 5 (32:41):
You've been an I don't know what to do such
no walls stops.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
My few.
Speaker 5 (32:52):
Then I saw your life finde never saying you all
for them on the lea singing all forever and they
(33:42):
re to.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
You. O. Listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver call up
Radio CFR one hundred point five FM. I'm Brennandine Fox
speaking with Danielle Ryan's about coaching scams. So, Danielle, you
were talking about sort of you know, how to kind
of check out a coach before going in to see them,
and some of the things to think about. Can you
tell us some of the things that you've heard of
(34:22):
and or have have presented on your YouTube channel about
things that have happened to people. How does this set out?
Speaker 4 (34:29):
Absolutely? So, I've been fortunate enough now at this point
to have sat down face to face with close to
fifty people I think who were either victims of a
coaching scam, former coaches themselves, or just observers of the industry.
And it's been pretty wild and honestly quite heartbreaking to
(34:53):
hear some of these stories. You know, in a lot
of the circumstances, regardless of what type of coaching it is,
spiritual life, coaching, mental health business, whatever. I think one
of the most common, or not just one, many of
the most common threads amongst those stories is the tens
of thousands of dollars people have lost to getting duped
(35:15):
by a coach, but also the emotional and psychological harm
that has resulted from those experiences. And I mean I
can speak to this from my own coaching experience, the
amount of shame and self blame that gets placed for
not having that level of awareness that we spoke to earlier,
(35:35):
of realizing or recognizing the scam before it took place,
and just having to come to terms with the manipulative
tactics that were used in order to get you to
hand over your money. I mean, I spoke to a
woman last week, her interview was just published, who was
struggling with bipolar disorder and had been in and out
(35:56):
of the psych ward and I share this story. She
shared the story openly on the channel, so I'm not
doxing her by any means. But she had been in
and out of the psych word while she was working
with a coach who had actually re traumatized her through
their coaching relationship, and had asked to end the coaching
program and said, you know, I'm obviously not in a
(36:19):
good place psychologically. I was hoping we could cut the
relationship here and you know, get refunded for services not rendered,
and the coach essentially just ghosted her. And when in
they were part of a spiritual community together, and she
went into that community and basically turned everyone against the
individual who was the victim here. And it's just stories.
(36:42):
Hearing stories like that really just opens my eyes to
just how much nonsense is happening in this space. Specifically,
I believe because there is no repercussion, so this coach
can act in this way, she can take this per
sense money and turn her whole community against her and
(37:02):
there's no recourse. She can now carry on and find
a new victim. So it's really just so heartbreaking to
have to hear story after story after story of these
people who just wanted to do something better for themselves
and ended up in a worse off position than where
they started.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
O kidding, And this was a mental health coach.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
This was so she called herself, like a spiritual healing mentor.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Oh okay, oh, that sounds so much like therapy abuse
and exploitation and the grooming that includes making somebody dependent
and love bombing them and getting them to trust them
or demanding trust or and then the exploitation, which in
(37:47):
this case seems mostly financial as far as I can
tell that. We can talk about that in a bit.
And then what happens to people when they're discarded by
these abusive therapists who can no longer exploit them. Once
that happens, they discard them, and that in that the
harm that's done is catastrophic, and I don't think people
(38:08):
understand the level of that damage and the deep damage
that can happen to people. And even the stuff where
you know the person is being re traumatized by the
community around that person and that they are supporting the
spiritual hero and not the client that's been harmed. We
(38:30):
see that happening in the mental health industry all the time,
where the industry itself sort of is still in many
ways enabling and protecting the offenders the abuse of therapists.
And they sometimes it's out of naivete and not understanding
what they're looking at, or not being trained and what
(38:50):
they're looking at. But other times it is because they
have their own skin in the game and may have
exploited their own clients as well. And until we get
to the place where this is onboard and you know,
on the table, I should say, and being looked at, well,
we're not going to really know why people do the
(39:11):
things that they're doing. But certainly what you described with
this client is happening in therapy abuse and exploitation as well.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
I actually have a question for you, and this is
just this conversation about the parallels we're seeing here. I
would be curious. I know from the conversations I've had,
a common theme is you know, you invest in one coach,
you have a negative relationship, and again, because of the
shame and the guilt that's associated with that, a lot
of these people will assume like, oh, it was my fault.
I just made a bad choice in choosing who my
(39:40):
coach was going to be. Maybe I'll hire somebody else
and they're going to, you know, be the one that
helps me solve this problem. Is that something that you
see in therapy exploitation, wherein I have a negative experience
with a therapist, so I think, oh, well, maybe it
was just that guy and I just need to go
find somebody else.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Actually it is, but it's slightly different, and that mental
health consumers, people who live with mental health challenges are
told that by the world, by society. They're told go
and see a therapist, and if it doesn't work, it's
your fault. The mental health industry is also kind of
set up to make it the client's fault. You didn't
(40:16):
work hard enough, you weren't able to trust well enough,
you weren't able to open up, you weren't willing to
do the homework I gave you. You weren't you know.
They have a lot of ways that they blame the client.
So it may be an internal thing, and certainly shame
and guilt are huge because I consider a trauma survivor
(40:36):
going to see an abusive therapist unknowingly being exploited. And
then we can add, we can add sexualized trauma and
being sexually exploited when they finally realize what has gone
on and how they've been duped. They have to also
unpack all of that. Well not just unpacket, but they
(40:58):
have to recognize on some level, well, they participated in
their own victimization because we didn't know what was going on.
They were told this is fine, this is what you
need to do. Some therapists call it treatment. You know,
you have to have sex with me because I'll heal you,
you know. And so we're taught to believe the therapist.
We're taught not to necessarily question a therapist or question
(41:21):
what they're doing. And if you have a good therapist,
they're going to teach you ethical guidelines properly. If you
have a bad therapist, they're going to teach you ethical
guidelines that fit how they want to exploit you. And so,
because we're groomed literally in society to go and trust
the therapist is there to help us, we put our
critical thinking aside to get that help and do the work.
(41:45):
And so shame becomes a big part of it.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
Yeah, and I think that, ever, their fault.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
And I just want to clearly say that after saying
all of that, it is never the client's fault for
what a therapist did, it's always one hundred percent their
fault no matter what. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
And I think that those group environments particularly can be
incredibly dangerous. And I know in coaching it's super popular
to have you know, memberships, group programs, that kind of thing.
And I was actually just reading a story yesterday for
YouTube where this woman was talking about she was in
like a manifestation coaching program and she wasn't getting results
(42:24):
after paying this coach, and so she just started, you know,
asking questions in this Facebook group, why is in XYZ working?
And she started to notice that the group leader was
deleting any comments that were either questioning the methods or
simply just statements that it wasn't working were being removed
from the group. And I think any kind of environment,
(42:45):
whether it's in a professional mental health setting or coaching,
wherein you're basically being told think what I tell you
to think and do as I tell you to do,
is incredibly incredibly dangerous and a very slippery too, because
if everyone around you is believing the same things that
you're all being told to believe, it's like cult like behavior,
(43:08):
and I think it's very hard to see your way
out of that.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
It is very hard to see, especially if everybody around
you is normalizing it. It's very hard to find your
own feet and stand on them and say no, this
is what I'm seeing and stand in that. It's difficult,
especially if what you have is in front of you
a spiritual healing mentor. I mean that sounds pretty cool,
(43:32):
like great. I mean I would have no idea how
to do spiritual healing, so I would be inclined to
if that's what I felt I needed to believe whatever
that person is telling me, because it seems so far
beyond anything I know. Can you tell us a little
bit more about the kinds of stories you hear.
Speaker 14 (43:50):
For sure?
Speaker 4 (43:51):
I mean it's a wide array, as I've mentioned, of
all different things. I'm one particular story is coming to
mind right now of a woman who she was autistic
and struggled a lot with building personal relationships in her life.
So she had just gone through losing some close relatives
(44:11):
and was struggling a little bit mentally, and so she
ended up reaching out to a relationship coach in hopes
of learning how to foster deeper connections in her personal life.
And so, long story short, essentially what happened was this
relationship coach, rather than teaching her the actual skills and
(44:32):
techniques to be able to build other relationships beyond the
coaching relationship, essentially just fostered a codependent relationship with the client,
wherein the client continued to pay her upwards of tens
of thousands of dollars. She had just received an inheritance
from the relative that had passed away, And the whole
(44:54):
story was just incredibly tragic and heartbreaking because essentially this
coach convinced her, you know, just keep paying me and
I will help you solve this problem. And once again,
same situation I've heard time and time again. She's giving
her thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to essentially
pay for the friendship of this coach, and once the
(45:15):
money ran out, the friendship ran out as well. And
so it's just I feel like I created this platform
so people could feel seen and heard in their experience.
But the more and more people I talk to, the
more I start to recognize that it's just all too common.
You know, I can replace your story with my story,
with her story, and at the end of the day,
(45:37):
it all follows sort of the same framework and the
same principles, and it's really just so heartbreaking to bear
witness too.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
In therapy ab use and exploitation, we call that the playbook,
because we also have the same thing, the same story,
over and over and over, and with the same grooming techniques,
the same kinds of exploitation, and the same retaliation in
the terminal phase where they are working to silence or
discredit their victims. In fact, the parallels between coaching scams
(46:08):
and therapy abuse and exploitation are so close that I'm
having a hard time separating them. Can you tell us
a little bit about what happens to people? What's a
common outcome for people who've gone through this?
Speaker 4 (46:22):
For sure, obviously a lot of heartache, a lot of confusion.
I think many people end their coaching relationships and are
unsure of what to do next. I think that aside
from the significant financial loss that many people experience. I mean,
I've spoken with people with hundreds of thousands of dollars
(46:44):
of debt from coaching programs, but beyond that, really just
learning how to recover. So many people end up in
these situations where they've been so dependent on this other
person for so long that they've kind of lost sight
of themselves and what's important to them, especially those in
those group environments again where we're being taught what to
(47:05):
think and what to say and how to feel about things.
When we extract ourselves from those situations, well, what is
really important to me? What do I actually value? How
am I supposed to function in a world outside of
the coaching bubble that I've lived in for in many
cases years and years and years, and so I think
a lot of the times it really just comes down
(47:26):
to people then seeking out alternative resources and supports in
some cases that is actually therapy or you know, support
groups and other things that exist online now to try
and find their footing, figure out who they are beyond
or who they used to be before all of this happened.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Can I just go through some of the well known
common outcomes for therapy of use and exploitated clients and
just see whether or not you've heard of these in
the therapy not therapy, in the coaching environment as well.
What about self harm.
Speaker 4 (48:06):
In some cases?
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Yes, okay, suicide squid? I sorry, hold on one second,
I don't know what happened to my throat, It just
went weird. Hold on, God, what about suicide or suicidal ideation. Absolutely,
(48:28):
just so we know, you know, in therapy use and exploitation,
suicidal ideation, attempting or committing suicide is many, many, many
times greater in this population, the therapy use and exploitation
victim population, than any other victim group. So what about distrust?
(48:49):
What about their their ability to trust?
Speaker 4 (48:52):
Absolutely, I would say that's one of the biggest ones,
because again, after you lose all that money, you lose
all that time, it's really difficult for you to think,
you know, who actually does have my best interest in
mine in terms of any service provider that you hire from.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
There on exactly, And how could I have done this? Shame?
We talked about that. What about anxiety.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
Definitely, and I think that tuch ties into the distrust
of you know, and the shame and the guilt of
so many anxious feelings around like how could I have
been so stupid? How could I have not seen it?
But also again, who am I beyond this? And how
do I figure that out?
Speaker 1 (49:30):
And going from somebody a relationship where you're dependent on
that person to being set afloat basically exactly trying to
figure out how to do all that Again, panic attacks, yep, CPTSD.
Definitely Stockholm syndrome. Do I need to explain that? Maybe
I do for my listeners. Stockholm syndrome is a syndrome
(49:52):
which where the victim actually protects the offender and will
work to make sure they're okay. And we see that
with people in therapy abuse and exploitation before they've kind
of figured out what happened to them, they are set
up and groomed to in fact protect their abusive therapists.
(50:13):
So I don't know whether or not that happens in coaching.
Speaker 4 (50:15):
I can assure you this is alive and well based
on the comment section of my YouTube.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Channey right, Okay, just regulation and that's kind of not
quite anxiety or panic attacks. It's more just not being
able to regulate your own emotional content for yourself, and
so you're just unable to function. So you're at risk
of losing your job, your friends, your house, your livelihood,
(50:41):
your children because you can't cope.
Speaker 4 (50:44):
Absolutely. I actually just spoke with a woman This interview
hasn't been published yet, but a woman whose partner got
you know, sucked into the coaching world so far to
the point that they ended up separating and now, well,
this isn't even a byproduct of like this particular woman
being the victim of coaching, but because her partner became
(51:06):
so deeply engrossed in the cult of coaching, she herself
is now experiencing that dysregulation in the aftermath of that,
trying to figure out how this even happened.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
Right, So, if I'm right, her partner was the one
that engaged in the coach and she is having a
consequence to that, exactly. Yeah, And we find that with
therapy abuse and exploitation as well, that we tend to
think binary. We have a therapist and a client, and
what is happening is happening between the two of them,
but in fact the harm filters out to their family
(51:40):
and friends and children and ex partners, for sure. So
tell people where they can find your podcast.
Speaker 4 (51:48):
For sure. You can find me on YouTube. I published
videos every single week. It's Danielle Ryan everywhere on the internet.
So I'm also on Instagram, TikTok, all that good stuff.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Okay, So if you need to get a hold of Danielle,
you can just google her and you will be able
to find her. Actually did it myself. It was crea
easy to find you. Thank you so thank you, Danielle.
This has been very actually very interesting, and I think
it's an important topic that those two things that are
(52:18):
happening in the world, coaching scams and therapy, abuse and exploitation,
the parallels are so consistent that we need to be
in touch with each other to keep moving ahead and
making sure these things are stopped so people can live
their life.
Speaker 4 (52:33):
For sure, very valuable conversations to be had. Thank you
so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Oh, you're welcome, and that's it. Folks will be right back.
Speaker 14 (52:54):
Sometimes it seems we're all running around in our own directions.
Sometimes it seems we've forgotten which way to turn. Sometimes
it seems all we see is the light of our
own reflection. Catton, the flame of the bridges we have burned.
Speaker 3 (53:23):
There, arrange ChEls who are come on us, helping, shearing,
shining lights, crash, save jees.
Speaker 15 (53:41):
Hear us, guide us things. We'll walk with you.
Speaker 10 (53:52):
And everything will be all live.
Speaker 14 (53:58):
Sometimes it seems life's the jigsaw.
Speaker 10 (54:02):
Puzzle with one he's missing.
Speaker 14 (54:06):
Sometimes it seems we've all lost the rules to the game,
and all we really want our magic wants to keep
on wishing someone might remembers my name.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
Arrange Gems who are coming ups helping, sharing, shining light,
paciously jees here a man as.
Speaker 10 (54:49):
Guide us things. We'll walk with you. Everything will be all.
Speaker 3 (55:03):
Not Father.
Speaker 10 (55:06):
Winds are still folded.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
Watching we un quite ready to see what we fain.
Speaker 14 (55:20):
Mistakes along life streams are the still a little bit
of the angels in.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
New Wand we.
Speaker 3 (55:32):
Rangengeants. You are coming u helping shine, shineing lights, rush
save Jones here among.
Speaker 10 (55:52):
Guy us. We'll walk with you. Guid We'll walk with you.
(56:14):
Everything will be.
Speaker 16 (56:23):
Vancouver Cooperative Radio is an innovative, nonprofit community radio station
with a mission to produce creative and engaging programming for
communities whose voices are underrepresented in the mainstream media. We
need your financial support to help us achieve this mission.
By donating today, you will help us to continue to
provide training and access to equipment for over three hundred
(56:46):
volunteers who produce one hundred and forty hours of original
programming in over ten languages. Our radio station is located
in the heart of the downtown east Side, and since
nineteen seventy five, we have celebrated the rich cultural diversity
of the Greater Vancouver area through our arts, music and
spoken word programming. Please support alternative.
Speaker 14 (57:07):
Community based radio.
Speaker 16 (57:09):
Donate today by visiting Coop radio dot org forward slash donate.
We're calling six oh four six eight four eight four
ninety four. At six oh four six eight four eight
four nine four.
Speaker 1 (57:25):
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver, CA up Radio
CFR one hundred point five I FM. I'm Brenandine Fox
and that's our show. My thanks to Danielle Ryan from
coaching Scams on YouTube for joining us today to help
us understand how to protect ourselves when engaging with coaches,
whether it is a business to mental health coach. Our
music today was by Alrich, Lauren and Wallace, and my
(57:47):
thanks goes out to you for joining us today. Stay
safe out there. You've just listened to Rethreading Madness, where
we dare to change how we think about mental health.
We air live on Vancouver co Op Radios R one
hundred point five FM every Tuesday at five pm or
online at co opradio dot org. If you have questions
(58:08):
or feedback about this program, or want to share your
story or have something to say to us, we want
to hear from you. You can reach us by email
rethreading Madness at co opradio dot org. This is Bernardine Fox.
We'll be back next week. Until then, when.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
I've ever been further, No, what the hell I'm gonna
do when I can't see the fine the way under
over to just want to ready and give the life
(58:49):
they are when we turn out the lights in It's sorry,
it's all right, go to.
Speaker 13 (59:00):
It'll be all right.
Speaker 5 (59:03):
Why don't always believe but when you're.
Speaker 2 (59:07):
Telling me everything's gonna be all right? Yeah, Why don't
I wonder how you know?
Speaker 10 (59:24):
Surely you don't have all of the facts.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
You could be just making it up. Why don't I
ever think of that?
Speaker 1 (59:40):
It's some kind imagine in.
Speaker 10 (59:42):
The words that you read.
Speaker 2 (59:45):
Saying, baby, take it from me, it's all right, it's
all right
Speaker 15 (59:53):
Don't too, will be all right, assass
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