November 6, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode, Coach Craig Perra tackles one of the most controversial and important topics in the church today: why so many faith-based porn recovery programs fail—and how they may actually make things worse (unintentionally of course).
Drawing on over a decade of coaching pastors, Christian leaders, and men of faith, Craig exposes the hidden disconnect between sin-based approaches and neuroscience. He explores why shame-based recovery fuels relapse, why “perfect sobriety” is an illusion, and how Internal Family Systems (IFS) offers a Christ-aligned, science-backed path toward healing.
🔥 Topics Covered:
Why so many pastors secretly struggle with porn
How “don’t lust” and “don’t touch” rules backfire
The dangerous all-or-nothing myth of “perfect sobriety”
The truth about our biology, trauma, and unmet needs
A faith-aligned alternative: leading your “addict part” with grace, not shame
🧠 If you’ve ever felt like your faith and your biology are at war, this episode might change how you see addiction forever.
👉 Learn more or get help at www.mindfulhabithelp.com
Drawing on over a decade of coaching pastors, Christian leaders, and men of faith, Craig exposes the hidden disconnect between sin-based approaches and neuroscience. He explores why shame-based recovery fuels relapse, why “perfect sobriety” is an illusion, and how Internal Family Systems (IFS) offers a Christ-aligned, science-backed path toward healing.
🔥 Topics Covered:
Why so many pastors secretly struggle with porn
How “don’t lust” and “don’t touch” rules backfire
The dangerous all-or-nothing myth of “perfect sobriety”
The truth about our biology, trauma, and unmet needs
A faith-aligned alternative: leading your “addict part” with grace, not shame
🧠 If you’ve ever felt like your faith and your biology are at war, this episode might change how you see addiction forever.
👉 Learn more or get help at www.mindfulhabithelp.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's up everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Craig Perra here, and you are listening to Sex Afflictions
and Porn Addictions, a podcast designed to help you create
and sustain healthy sexuality and a great life. Why because
sobriety is not enough, less than ten percent of the solution.
I really, honestly and genuinely think that welcome everybody. I
(00:26):
have a really special topic today, a sensitive topic that
we're going to talk about, and I want to talk
about the biggest concerns that my clients have shared with
me over the years about their faith based programs.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
And I'm sharing.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
These with you so you can say, hey, this is
a gap that I need to plug, or maybe you
don't connect with anything in this podcast and everything is
going right for you, and I hope it is. But
if you're listening, there's a great chance that thinks that
there's an opportunity to strengthen some weaknesses.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So let me tell you specifically.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
So what we're going to talk about today is number
one why pastors and church leaders themselves are struggling. I
have the great privilege of working with leaders of large, large,
very large congregations, medium size, small, leaders from all fates,
all walks of life all parts of the country. Probably
(01:23):
about sixty to seventy percent of my clients are Christians,
So we're first going to talk about that. The second
thing is that we're going to talk about the biggest
ways that faith based programs in the experience of my
clients unintentionally, unintentionally and sometimes make things worse. And finally,
(01:44):
the good news a model aligned with the Christian faith.
I'm going to talk a little bit about the internal
family systems model. Now, if you are new to the
internal family systems model and you are a Christian, then
I highly highly recommend this book All Together You by
Jenna Ramersma. I recently had her on my podcast. She
(02:08):
is a SeeSat therapist and she has a very interesting
perspective on healthy sexuality in leading and loving your attic part.
So stay tuned for that. I am really really excited
to release that podcast to you. But this book is
definitely mandatory reading. And let me just say, for you
(02:28):
brothers who are new to this program, wouldn't it be
wild if there was a neuroscientifically supported behavior change model
that has beautiful overlap with your faith, Like how cool
would that be?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Right?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, guess what according to Jenna Ramersma in this book
and what I'm going to talk about today, there is
the internal family systems model and the mindful habit system.
So I want to share some statistics involving pastors and leaders.
And these statistics come from the Barna Group. So if
(03:06):
you search the Barnes Study, the Barna Group is one
of the most respected Christian research organizations out there. And
here's what they found. There's a lot of statistics. They're
only going to go through a few of them, but
I think they're important. Here's what one statistics said. Eighty
six percent of pastors belief porn news is common among
(03:29):
other pastors. How's that for a self report?
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Right?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Two out of three pastors admit they've struggled with porn
themselves in a little more than that for the younger pastors.
The younger pastors have a higher struggle rate. But listen
to this disconnect. Listen to this disconnect. But only thirty
three percent of pastors think it's a major issue in
their congregations. That is a staggering discount disconnect because in reality,
(03:59):
percent of Christian men and forty percent of Christian women
report using porn now let me be clear, the porn
that we're talking about today, we are not talking about
Christian couples who use erotica.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
As a marital aid.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Do you know there are actually adult Christian content creators
trying to teach people how to make love because we've
been so poisoned by porn. They exist, they are out there, okay,
But we're not talking about that. We are talking about
the lying, the hiding, and the sneaking, okay. And that
(04:42):
disconnect is so massive because maybe if we frame the
problem from one perspective, is men watching porn problematic? And
you could have two different groups could debate that, and
they've come to different conclusions. Although you listening right might
feel very strongly about it. Right, there are debates happening.
(05:03):
But when you frame the question a little differently, is
men being out of integrity regarding one of the most
powerful forces in human nature with their life partner a problem?
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah? Right, right, It's a.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Massive, massive, massive problem. And let me tell you a story.
And this is an amalgamation of a couple of stories.
This has happened multiple times, so I'm not revealing any secrets.
But I coached a pastor of a large congregation who
wanted to lead differently. He wanted to be honest about
(05:37):
his struggle because he said, to himself, son of a gun,
I'm doing everything right. I'm trying to do everything right
at least, and I'm struggling. Oh and by the way,
everybody I talk to is struggling. Everybody I even talk
to feel shame, feels like they're out of integrity, feels
like they're not with God, they feels like they're not
(05:58):
connected to their partners. Have to address this proactively. Let's
fight this head on. Let's fight this with honesty, grace, forgiveness,
and love. Let's come up with some evidence based tools,
Let's create some groups.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Let's do this. And he was so excited.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
And guess what what did the elders say? What did
the older members on the board of directors say? They
said no, They said, that's your business because if you
admit your struggle, if you admit that you're struggling with
everyone else is struggling with.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
That will undermine your credibility as a leader.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And that statistic is real because when people were asked,
would you support a pastor who is honest about him
struggling with porn? Most of you said no, no. So
his fear, their fear of him undermining his credibility as
a leader, is legitimate, is real. And they said, if
(07:00):
if you choose to take this approach, you're gonna lose
your job. And listen, when these guys lose their jobs,
they might have a house that the place provides for them,
their kids might be enrolled in schools.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
And now you've got the stigma.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Of the guy who shared his poorn addiction as a
leader of a church, so he stayed silent. Shame shut
down the movement before it even began. But let me
just I want you to imagine this for a second.
I want you to do this with me. I want
you to close your eyes, and I want you to
(07:33):
imagine the reality if our leaders were honest about their struggles.
Can you imagine how the conversation would change. Can you
imagine the different conversations with partners, the different conversations that
guys would be having each other instead of it in
the dark and the shadows and the shame. We're not
(07:53):
wired for this, man, We're not wired for this. The
AI girlfriend market is expected to grow over twenty eight
billion dollars by twenty twenty eight. I think it's thirty
percent year of a year growth. We are not wired
for this. And you would think, at this point in
our history, considering there's only one thing that allows us
(08:14):
to reproduce and that sex, that we'd be better at
talking about it.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
But we are not here. We are here, we are so.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Anyway, I have compassion for you religious leaders who are
listening to this.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I see you.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I know how hard it is to be honest, keep
fighting the good fight. And now I want to talk
about the criticisms, constructive criticisms that my clients have shared
them over the years in regards to their faith based programs. Again,
this isn't saying my program's better than anybody else's program.
The God's honest truth is different people respond to different things.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Okay, So this isn't about mine's better than theirs.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
These are the holes that I pluck, These are the
things that we think are important. So clients say, one
of the biggest problems with their eight based programs is
that they obsess over what not to do, So don't lust,
don't touch yourself, and some of them, at their extremes
don't even have the thought. Okay, but neuroscience is clear.
(09:16):
You don't break a habit by trying not to do it.
You break a habit by meeting new habits that actually
meet those needs. Because the golden rule of behavior modification
is what to break a habit, you have to make
the right habit that meets the right needs.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
So too much break a habit not enough make a habit? Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
The other criticism in regards to the make a habit
or the break a habit is there are rules, but
rules without systems meaning. James Clear says it in chapter
one Atomic Habits. Right, this is something you must write
down and figure out for yourself. Embrace it, learn it.
You must know this and you must live this reality.
(10:02):
We do not rise to the level of our goals.
You fall to the level of your systems. It's not
about willpower, right, It's about structure and discipline, the different
areas in your life that you focus on in order
to create the output of choice, healthy sexuality in a
(10:23):
great life. And you know, and here's the kicker, right,
and why this too much break a habit actually makes
things worse because when you try not to think about something,
the stronger it grips you, the more you say don't
do it, there's an internal mechanism inside saying do it.
And if you don't believe me, it's the old pink
(10:44):
elephant test. Close your eyes and try not to think
of a pink elephant. You can't because Golden rule of
behavior modification number two, that which you resist persists, and
it's why folks on only what not to do fails.
The real change comes from building habits that meet your
(11:06):
deepest needs and healthy ways. And you've got the right
guardrails in places to keep you on track. Right, that's
how you retrain your brain, and that's how you create
lasting freedom. And you cannot do that when you are
too heavy on the break a habit side, Okay, And
the reason why you can't do that in summary, because
(11:26):
to break a habit you have to make the right
habits that meet the right needs. And number two, focusing
on the negative violates Golden rule of behavior modification number two,
that which you resist persist. Okay. And last, but not least,
we talked about systems. You know, rise to the level
of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems.
(11:48):
You must be working on building the systems that produce
the output of choice over extended periods of time, despite
the inevitable challenge is that life is going to throw
at you.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
You must have a system.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Okay, So the second thing that I want to talk
about is, gosh, the obsession, not the obsession, because they're
legitimate obsessions. But let me just say with sobriety and sin.
So in what my clients have said, in many of
these circles, cess only equals one thing, perfect sobriety.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Okay, you can white knuckle it for a week, a month,
a year, years and still fail. And the reason for
that is because your brain has been trained over years,
over decades, since childhood, to use porn as a coping
strategy for to use one of the most powerful forces
in the human nature to deal with fear also known
(12:50):
as stress anxiety. Well, we'll add loneliness to that too,
fear of abandonmant not being good enough. So when you're
talking about using sex to regulate fear, it's not leuss,
it's not even about sex. It's about survival. We've got
survival instincts kicking in. And here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
This.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
When you look at the amount of times that a
guy has used porn and masturbation to emotionally regulate since
they were a child. You're talking in the thousands and
the tens of thousands. The frequency is so high because
it works. It's a very effective coping strategy. There's a
(13:34):
way I teach mindfulness when you can you be as
mindful doing something else as you are when you are.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
In that tunnel. And so the sin.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
It's hard to address because there's a simple reality that
there is a capacity issue. You really can't help it,
you don't mean to do it. And when you beat
yourself up and you shame yourself for making those mistakes,
you only make it worse. You're not addressing the capacity issues,
and you are staining yourself with shame, and you're ignoring
(14:06):
the biology, you're ignoring the trauma, you're ignoring the programming.
And you cannot do that. Do ignore that at your peril.
The addict lacks capacity to make good choices consistently over
extended periods of time, which is why we need systems.
And here's the other thing that I want to talk
(14:28):
about is that in these programs they tend to be
all or nothing, so perfect, sobriety perfect or not or failure,
success or failure. But here's the thing, right, Let's say
somebody who is like a serious mental health problems, a
lot of childhood trauma, wants to be a better man
(14:50):
of faith and wants to make progress, and is stuck
in this cycle of going a few weeks and failing
and feeling like a piece of garbage and pulling self
out of that hole.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
What if?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
What if we realize when we looked at his numbers
that when he gave effort, he cut it in half,
he cut it fifty percent.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
He reduced frequency fifty percent in the first week. And
instead of celebrating that, and instead of analyzing, what did
you do to reduce it fifty percent? What did you
What did you do? What did you think?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
What belief systems inspired you to reduce it fifty percent?
So in any other part of the world, in business
and self improvement, you have success. But when you have
the all or nothing approach, what happens is and what
that means is and I'm going to say it is
attainability is controversial. People get into debate abstinence versus harm reduction. Listen,
(15:52):
this isn't abstinence versus harm reduction. It's reality reality, and
the reality is that you only had the capacity to
reduce it fifty percent. What if you did that again,
What if you did that again? What if you were
building on the successes. And when you are in the
all or nothing approach, you rob yourself of that ability,
(16:15):
You rob yourself of celebrating those successes and figuring out
what works and building on what works, and you're stuck
in a negative cycle that keeps things worse. And this
is when I get on my soapbox, and I'm gonna
get off my soapboxes. I never want to be anything
other than kind. But like, I am sorry that reality
(16:37):
is controversial in your world. And I really mean that, Like,
I am really sorry that reality is controversial in your world.
Because when you start addressing attainability, you start creating results,
You start being successful, You start winning. Instead of believing
(17:03):
that your wife's anger in your shame is sufficient to
rewire decades of programming, rooted in childhood, rooted in natural biology,
rooted in natural biology, reinforce environmentally over the course of
thousands of times in a lifespan. And guys, I have
(17:24):
had men come to meet Bokin feeling such deep and
profound shame, seriously disregulated from an abstinence program, and instead
of focusing on emotional regulation, self care, basic mindfulness, you know,
underlying mental health issues. This guy just felt like a
(17:45):
worthless piece of crap until I said, let's take sobriety
off the table for a week now, now, now, no,
just listen. What if we get to where you want
to go but in a different way. That's a lot kinder,
that produces a lot better as that deals with reality.
How about instead of like the vendors that cycle that
you keep putting yourself in, what if we reduce frequency
(18:08):
and severity twenty five percent? And actually, in the case,
I'm thinking I'll be took it off the table because
there were things that needed to get done before his
system could produce the output of good decision making, identity
based decision making over extended periods of time. All right,
here is the last thing that I want to talk about.
(18:29):
So one of the other primary criticisms that a lot
of clients have, and this is I think due to
you know, maybe misinterpretation of twelve steps, but a lot
of people, especially my Christian brothers, demonize their addict part.
So Hi, my name is Craig, I'm a sex addict.
(18:52):
I have the disease of sex addiction. And what do
you want to do with the disease? You want to
kill that disease, right, what do you want to do
with those diseased cells?
Speaker 1 (19:01):
You want to kill those cells.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
So there is this, and then you add faith to that,
and there is the tendency to demonize the attic part.
And so you guys go back and watch some of
my other videos or listen to my podcast on parts
work to learn more about the internal family systems model. Again,
I will reference the book Altogether You by Jenna Remersemus
right next to me, because I just had her on
(19:24):
my podcast. She was a wonderful guest. And you guys
are really really gonna dig it to find a neuroscientifically
supported model in alignment with your faith, Like goodness gracious,
could you ask for anything better of that? And by
the way, it is inconsistent or at least doctrinally consistent
with aspects of twelve step identifying as an addict. Now,
(19:46):
because Jenna knows what she's doing, she's able to educate
her clients, and you learn in the book How to
Be Be Mindful that you know, this is just a
part of you. But a lot of Christians demonize their
attic par They want to kill their attic part, they
want to destroy their attic part. They want to do
what you do to demons. Right, But here's the problem.
(20:09):
Here is the problem that addict that part of you
that runs the pleasure to escape pain for years, maybe decades,
That part of you that has helped you regulate fear, stress, loneliness,
and anxiety. This oasis, this escape, this this reward first
(20:33):
learned in childhood, and often those learnings in childhood were
shrouded by shame and unhealthy childhood sexual experiences.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Shame.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So that attic part that you're demonizing, that's that's not right.
That's actually making it worse when any program tells you
that that part is evil, that it's the flesh, that
it's the enemy. Internalize the fight. And when you demonize
a part, you demonize yourself. The way you feel about
(21:08):
a part is the way you feel about yourself. And
I would argue respectfully that that approach yours, is how
the demon comes in by demonizing a part.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Okay, and Jenna talks about this in her book, And
what does that do? Makes it worse.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
That isn't I did something bad, that is I am
something bad. And that's why parts work is so incredibly awesome.
And I you know, can't say mandatory because different people
respond to different things.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
But having a framework.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
To lead these wayward parts so I'm familiar, is incredibly valuable.
And there's this psychological model, and I'll talk just a
little bit of it, the internal family systems model, where
at the center is this Jiminy cricket like friend psychologies
and spirit virtualities have a different name for it, but
(22:01):
there's this I remember describing it to a client. He said, oh,
you mean the Holy Spirit? He said, oh, does it
feel like that?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
A lot of clients connect with that.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Or Jena describes in her book the fingerprint of God
the Divine spark. And there are a number of other
different terms that you might use. So you're telling me
there is a psychological model that there's this thing in
the center of us that has the ability and capacity
and the power to lead these wayward parts with not shame,
(22:35):
not anger, not condemnation, not contempt, not cruelty, but grace,
forgiveness and love.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Yeah, that's science.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
There is a model out there that gives you the
tools and the framework to lead these parts with grace, compassion, forgiveness,
and love, because to do anything else would be demonizing
the part, rejecting the part that which you resist persists.
To break a habbit, you have to make the right
habit that meets the right needs. So I think that,
(23:11):
of course. I think it's wonderful. So thank you, thank you,
thank you, thank you for listening. I am really excited
to teach this model. And one thing I like to say,
if you stuck around this far, you might be in
a place where the Mindful Habit has just launched its
first ever leadership and professional development program. Okay, this is
(23:33):
for leaders and leaders who want professional development, have a
company that has a professional development budget. I partnered with
Brett Perkins, author of the book Papercuts, founder of three
x Bold. You can check them out. Burienced former you know,
business owner, have an eight figure businesses, all that stuff.
(23:56):
But he's got an amazing heart and he's established in
this space, and we have partnered to do a ten
week program. We are doing a ten week leadership and
professional development program. And this is for the guy who's
not gonna go to therapy, who's not gonna go, you know,
join us sex or porn addiction program, but will does
(24:17):
want to grow and of course, you know, a great
professional development program impacts you in a deep way personally.
This is for burnout. This is for poor coping strategies.
So if you're listening to this, and if you are
a leader struggling with burnout and poor coping strategies, let
me know or if you know somebody the other reason
that we've built it in the way that we've built
(24:38):
it so people can refer it without revealing that you
have this dark secret. So this is an exciting time
for Michelle and I. We're really doing some super cool
things and we'll keep you posted around them.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
So thank you, Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Visit the website, dial the number, leave your name and
number and we'll get back to you, or you can
email at Craig at the Mindfulhabit dot com. This kickoff
is October fourteenth. I'm going to put the link in
the chat. So I'm super super excited about that. I
have known for over a decade that the Mindful Habit
(25:14):
system had application and could bring great value to leadership
and professional development. And then I realized that I'm in
doing leadership in professional development the entire time. It just
happened to have a massive impact on guys' families and
healthy sexuality, so check it out. Thank you for listening.
Visit mindfulhabit heelp dot com if you need more help,
(25:36):
remember embrace your power of choice and feed the right
wolf inside you. We'll actually feed both of them. They're important,
but you're just got to learn to feed it in
the right way. Thanks for listening. That's all I got. Goodnight, everybody.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Bye.
Hey, what's up everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Craig Perra here, and you are listening to Sex Afflictions
and Porn Addictions, a podcast designed to help you create
and sustain healthy sexuality and a great life. Why because
sobriety is not enough, less than ten percent of the solution.
I really, honestly and genuinely think that welcome everybody. I
(00:26):
have a really special topic today, a sensitive topic that
we're going to talk about, and I want to talk
about the biggest concerns that my clients have shared with
me over the years about their faith based programs.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
And I'm sharing.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
These with you so you can say, hey, this is
a gap that I need to plug, or maybe you
don't connect with anything in this podcast and everything is
going right for you, and I hope it is. But
if you're listening, there's a great chance that thinks that
there's an opportunity to strengthen some weaknesses.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So let me tell you specifically.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
So what we're going to talk about today is number
one why pastors and church leaders themselves are struggling. I
have the great privilege of working with leaders of large, large,
very large congregations, medium size, small, leaders from all fates,
all walks of life all parts of the country. Probably
(01:23):
about sixty to seventy percent of my clients are Christians,
So we're first going to talk about that. The second
thing is that we're going to talk about the biggest
ways that faith based programs in the experience of my
clients unintentionally, unintentionally and sometimes make things worse. And finally,
(01:44):
the good news a model aligned with the Christian faith.
I'm going to talk a little bit about the internal
family systems model. Now, if you are new to the
internal family systems model and you are a Christian, then
I highly highly recommend this book All Together You by
Jenna Ramersma. I recently had her on my podcast. She
(02:08):
is a SeeSat therapist and she has a very interesting
perspective on healthy sexuality in leading and loving your attic part.
So stay tuned for that. I am really really excited
to release that podcast to you. But this book is
definitely mandatory reading. And let me just say, for you
(02:28):
brothers who are new to this program, wouldn't it be
wild if there was a neuroscientifically supported behavior change model
that has beautiful overlap with your faith, Like how cool
would that be?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Right?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, guess what according to Jenna Ramersma in this book
and what I'm going to talk about today, there is
the internal family systems model and the mindful habit system.
So I want to share some statistics involving pastors and leaders.
And these statistics come from the Barna Group. So if
(03:06):
you search the Barnes Study, the Barna Group is one
of the most respected Christian research organizations out there. And
here's what they found. There's a lot of statistics. They're
only going to go through a few of them, but
I think they're important. Here's what one statistics said. Eighty
six percent of pastors belief porn news is common among
(03:29):
other pastors. How's that for a self report?
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Right?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Two out of three pastors admit they've struggled with porn
themselves in a little more than that for the younger pastors.
The younger pastors have a higher struggle rate. But listen
to this disconnect. Listen to this disconnect. But only thirty
three percent of pastors think it's a major issue in
their congregations. That is a staggering discount disconnect because in reality,
(03:59):
percent of Christian men and forty percent of Christian women
report using porn now let me be clear, the porn
that we're talking about today, we are not talking about
Christian couples who use erotica.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
As a marital aid.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Do you know there are actually adult Christian content creators
trying to teach people how to make love because we've
been so poisoned by porn. They exist, they are out there, okay,
But we're not talking about that. We are talking about
the lying, the hiding, and the sneaking, okay. And that
(04:42):
disconnect is so massive because maybe if we frame the
problem from one perspective, is men watching porn problematic? And
you could have two different groups could debate that, and
they've come to different conclusions. Although you listening right might
feel very strongly about it. Right, there are debates happening.
(05:03):
But when you frame the question a little differently, is
men being out of integrity regarding one of the most
powerful forces in human nature with their life partner a problem?
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah? Right, right, It's a.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Massive, massive, massive problem. And let me tell you a story.
And this is an amalgamation of a couple of stories.
This has happened multiple times, so I'm not revealing any secrets.
But I coached a pastor of a large congregation who
wanted to lead differently. He wanted to be honest about
(05:37):
his struggle because he said, to himself, son of a gun,
I'm doing everything right. I'm trying to do everything right
at least, and I'm struggling. Oh and by the way,
everybody I talk to is struggling. Everybody I even talk
to feel shame, feels like they're out of integrity, feels
like they're not with God, they feels like they're not
(05:58):
connected to their partners. Have to address this proactively. Let's
fight this head on. Let's fight this with honesty, grace, forgiveness,
and love. Let's come up with some evidence based tools,
Let's create some groups.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Let's do this. And he was so excited.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
And guess what what did the elders say? What did
the older members on the board of directors say? They
said no, They said, that's your business because if you
admit your struggle, if you admit that you're struggling with
everyone else is struggling with.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
That will undermine your credibility as a leader.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And that statistic is real because when people were asked,
would you support a pastor who is honest about him
struggling with porn? Most of you said no, no. So
his fear, their fear of him undermining his credibility as
a leader, is legitimate, is real. And they said, if
(07:00):
if you choose to take this approach, you're gonna lose
your job. And listen, when these guys lose their jobs,
they might have a house that the place provides for them,
their kids might be enrolled in schools.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
And now you've got the stigma.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Of the guy who shared his poorn addiction as a
leader of a church, so he stayed silent. Shame shut
down the movement before it even began. But let me
just I want you to imagine this for a second.
I want you to do this with me. I want
you to close your eyes, and I want you to
(07:33):
imagine the reality if our leaders were honest about their struggles.
Can you imagine how the conversation would change. Can you
imagine the different conversations with partners, the different conversations that
guys would be having each other instead of it in
the dark and the shadows and the shame. We're not
(07:53):
wired for this, man, We're not wired for this. The
AI girlfriend market is expected to grow over twenty eight
billion dollars by twenty twenty eight. I think it's thirty
percent year of a year growth. We are not wired
for this. And you would think, at this point in
our history, considering there's only one thing that allows us
(08:14):
to reproduce and that sex, that we'd be better at
talking about it.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
But we are not here. We are here, we are so.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Anyway, I have compassion for you religious leaders who are
listening to this.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I see you.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I know how hard it is to be honest, keep
fighting the good fight. And now I want to talk
about the criticisms, constructive criticisms that my clients have shared
them over the years in regards to their faith based programs. Again,
this isn't saying my program's better than anybody else's program.
The God's honest truth is different people respond to different things.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Okay, So this isn't about mine's better than theirs.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
These are the holes that I pluck, These are the
things that we think are important. So clients say, one
of the biggest problems with their eight based programs is
that they obsess over what not to do, So don't lust,
don't touch yourself, and some of them, at their extremes
don't even have the thought. Okay, but neuroscience is clear.
(09:16):
You don't break a habit by trying not to do it.
You break a habit by meeting new habits that actually
meet those needs. Because the golden rule of behavior modification
is what to break a habit, you have to make
the right habit that meets the right needs.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
So too much break a habit not enough make a habit? Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
The other criticism in regards to the make a habit
or the break a habit is there are rules, but
rules without systems meaning. James Clear says it in chapter
one Atomic Habits. Right, this is something you must write
down and figure out for yourself. Embrace it, learn it.
You must know this and you must live this reality.
(10:02):
We do not rise to the level of our goals.
You fall to the level of your systems. It's not
about willpower, right, It's about structure and discipline, the different
areas in your life that you focus on in order
to create the output of choice, healthy sexuality in a
(10:23):
great life. And you know, and here's the kicker, right,
and why this too much break a habit actually makes
things worse because when you try not to think about something,
the stronger it grips you, the more you say don't
do it, there's an internal mechanism inside saying do it.
And if you don't believe me, it's the old pink
(10:44):
elephant test. Close your eyes and try not to think
of a pink elephant. You can't because Golden rule of
behavior modification number two, that which you resist persists, and
it's why folks on only what not to do fails.
The real change comes from building habits that meet your
(11:06):
deepest needs and healthy ways. And you've got the right
guardrails in places to keep you on track. Right, that's
how you retrain your brain, and that's how you create
lasting freedom. And you cannot do that when you are
too heavy on the break a habit side, Okay, And
the reason why you can't do that in summary, because
(11:26):
to break a habit you have to make the right
habits that meet the right needs. And number two, focusing
on the negative violates Golden rule of behavior modification number two,
that which you resist persist. Okay. And last, but not least,
we talked about systems. You know, rise to the level
of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems.
(11:48):
You must be working on building the systems that produce
the output of choice over extended periods of time, despite
the inevitable challenge is that life is going to throw
at you.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
You must have a system.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Okay, So the second thing that I want to talk
about is, gosh, the obsession, not the obsession, because they're
legitimate obsessions. But let me just say with sobriety and sin.
So in what my clients have said, in many of
these circles, cess only equals one thing, perfect sobriety.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Okay, you can white knuckle it for a week, a month,
a year, years and still fail. And the reason for
that is because your brain has been trained over years,
over decades, since childhood, to use porn as a coping
strategy for to use one of the most powerful forces
in the human nature to deal with fear also known
(12:50):
as stress anxiety. Well, we'll add loneliness to that too,
fear of abandonmant not being good enough. So when you're
talking about using sex to regulate fear, it's not leuss,
it's not even about sex. It's about survival. We've got
survival instincts kicking in. And here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
This.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
When you look at the amount of times that a
guy has used porn and masturbation to emotionally regulate since
they were a child. You're talking in the thousands and
the tens of thousands. The frequency is so high because
it works. It's a very effective coping strategy. There's a
(13:34):
way I teach mindfulness when you can you be as
mindful doing something else as you are when you are.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
In that tunnel. And so the sin.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
It's hard to address because there's a simple reality that
there is a capacity issue. You really can't help it,
you don't mean to do it. And when you beat
yourself up and you shame yourself for making those mistakes,
you only make it worse. You're not addressing the capacity issues,
and you are staining yourself with shame, and you're ignoring
(14:06):
the biology, you're ignoring the trauma, you're ignoring the programming.
And you cannot do that. Do ignore that at your peril.
The addict lacks capacity to make good choices consistently over
extended periods of time, which is why we need systems.
And here's the other thing that I want to talk
(14:28):
about is that in these programs they tend to be
all or nothing, so perfect, sobriety perfect or not or failure,
success or failure. But here's the thing, right, Let's say
somebody who is like a serious mental health problems, a
lot of childhood trauma, wants to be a better man
(14:50):
of faith and wants to make progress, and is stuck
in this cycle of going a few weeks and failing
and feeling like a piece of garbage and pulling self
out of that hole.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
What if?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
What if we realize when we looked at his numbers
that when he gave effort, he cut it in half,
he cut it fifty percent.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
He reduced frequency fifty percent in the first week. And
instead of celebrating that, and instead of analyzing, what did
you do to reduce it fifty percent? What did you
What did you do? What did you think?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
What belief systems inspired you to reduce it fifty percent?
So in any other part of the world, in business
and self improvement, you have success. But when you have
the all or nothing approach, what happens is and what
that means is and I'm going to say it is
attainability is controversial. People get into debate abstinence versus harm reduction. Listen,
(15:52):
this isn't abstinence versus harm reduction. It's reality reality, and
the reality is that you only had the capacity to
reduce it fifty percent. What if you did that again,
What if you did that again? What if you were
building on the successes. And when you are in the
all or nothing approach, you rob yourself of that ability,
(16:15):
You rob yourself of celebrating those successes and figuring out
what works and building on what works, and you're stuck
in a negative cycle that keeps things worse. And this
is when I get on my soapbox, and I'm gonna
get off my soapboxes. I never want to be anything
other than kind. But like, I am sorry that reality
(16:37):
is controversial in your world. And I really mean that, Like,
I am really sorry that reality is controversial in your world.
Because when you start addressing attainability, you start creating results,
You start being successful, You start winning. Instead of believing
(17:03):
that your wife's anger in your shame is sufficient to
rewire decades of programming, rooted in childhood, rooted in natural biology,
rooted in natural biology, reinforce environmentally over the course of
thousands of times in a lifespan. And guys, I have
(17:24):
had men come to meet Bokin feeling such deep and
profound shame, seriously disregulated from an abstinence program, and instead
of focusing on emotional regulation, self care, basic mindfulness, you know,
underlying mental health issues. This guy just felt like a
(17:45):
worthless piece of crap until I said, let's take sobriety
off the table for a week now, now, now, no,
just listen. What if we get to where you want
to go but in a different way. That's a lot kinder,
that produces a lot better as that deals with reality.
How about instead of like the vendors that cycle that
you keep putting yourself in, what if we reduce frequency
(18:08):
and severity twenty five percent? And actually, in the case,
I'm thinking I'll be took it off the table because
there were things that needed to get done before his
system could produce the output of good decision making, identity
based decision making over extended periods of time. All right,
here is the last thing that I want to talk about.
(18:29):
So one of the other primary criticisms that a lot
of clients have, and this is I think due to
you know, maybe misinterpretation of twelve steps, but a lot
of people, especially my Christian brothers, demonize their addict part.
So Hi, my name is Craig, I'm a sex addict.
(18:52):
I have the disease of sex addiction. And what do
you want to do with the disease? You want to
kill that disease, right, what do you want to do
with those diseased cells?
Speaker 1 (19:01):
You want to kill those cells.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
So there is this, and then you add faith to that,
and there is the tendency to demonize the attic part.
And so you guys go back and watch some of
my other videos or listen to my podcast on parts
work to learn more about the internal family systems model. Again,
I will reference the book Altogether You by Jenna Remersemus
right next to me, because I just had her on
(19:24):
my podcast. She was a wonderful guest. And you guys
are really really gonna dig it to find a neuroscientifically
supported model in alignment with your faith, Like goodness gracious,
could you ask for anything better of that? And by
the way, it is inconsistent or at least doctrinally consistent
with aspects of twelve step identifying as an addict. Now,
(19:46):
because Jenna knows what she's doing, she's able to educate
her clients, and you learn in the book How to
Be Be Mindful that you know, this is just a
part of you. But a lot of Christians demonize their
attic par They want to kill their attic part, they
want to destroy their attic part. They want to do
what you do to demons. Right, But here's the problem.
(20:09):
Here is the problem that addict that part of you
that runs the pleasure to escape pain for years, maybe decades,
That part of you that has helped you regulate fear, stress, loneliness,
and anxiety. This oasis, this escape, this this reward first
(20:33):
learned in childhood, and often those learnings in childhood were
shrouded by shame and unhealthy childhood sexual experiences.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Shame.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So that attic part that you're demonizing, that's that's not right.
That's actually making it worse when any program tells you
that that part is evil, that it's the flesh, that
it's the enemy. Internalize the fight. And when you demonize
a part, you demonize yourself. The way you feel about
(21:08):
a part is the way you feel about yourself. And
I would argue respectfully that that approach yours, is how
the demon comes in by demonizing a part.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Okay, and Jenna talks about this in her book, And
what does that do? Makes it worse.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
That isn't I did something bad, that is I am
something bad. And that's why parts work is so incredibly awesome.
And I you know, can't say mandatory because different people
respond to different things.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
But having a framework.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
To lead these wayward parts so I'm familiar, is incredibly valuable.
And there's this psychological model, and I'll talk just a
little bit of it, the internal family systems model, where
at the center is this Jiminy cricket like friend psychologies
and spirit virtualities have a different name for it, but
(22:01):
there's this I remember describing it to a client. He said, oh,
you mean the Holy Spirit? He said, oh, does it
feel like that?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
A lot of clients connect with that.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Or Jena describes in her book the fingerprint of God
the Divine spark. And there are a number of other
different terms that you might use. So you're telling me
there is a psychological model that there's this thing in
the center of us that has the ability and capacity
and the power to lead these wayward parts with not shame,
(22:35):
not anger, not condemnation, not contempt, not cruelty, but grace,
forgiveness and love.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Yeah, that's science.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
There is a model out there that gives you the
tools and the framework to lead these parts with grace, compassion, forgiveness,
and love, because to do anything else would be demonizing
the part, rejecting the part that which you resist persists.
To break a habbit, you have to make the right
habit that meets the right needs. So I think that,
(23:11):
of course. I think it's wonderful. So thank you, thank you,
thank you, thank you for listening. I am really excited
to teach this model. And one thing I like to say,
if you stuck around this far, you might be in
a place where the Mindful Habit has just launched its
first ever leadership and professional development program. Okay, this is
(23:33):
for leaders and leaders who want professional development, have a
company that has a professional development budget. I partnered with
Brett Perkins, author of the book Papercuts, founder of three
x Bold. You can check them out. Burienced former you know,
business owner, have an eight figure businesses, all that stuff.
(23:56):
But he's got an amazing heart and he's established in
this space, and we have partnered to do a ten
week program. We are doing a ten week leadership and
professional development program. And this is for the guy who's
not gonna go to therapy, who's not gonna go, you know,
join us sex or porn addiction program, but will does
(24:17):
want to grow and of course, you know, a great
professional development program impacts you in a deep way personally.
This is for burnout. This is for poor coping strategies.
So if you're listening to this, and if you are
a leader struggling with burnout and poor coping strategies, let
me know or if you know somebody the other reason
that we've built it in the way that we've built
(24:38):
it so people can refer it without revealing that you
have this dark secret. So this is an exciting time
for Michelle and I. We're really doing some super cool
things and we'll keep you posted around them.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
So thank you, Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Visit the website, dial the number, leave your name and
number and we'll get back to you, or you can
email at Craig at the Mindfulhabit dot com. This kickoff
is October fourteenth. I'm going to put the link in
the chat. So I'm super super excited about that. I
have known for over a decade that the Mindful Habit
(25:14):
system had application and could bring great value to leadership
and professional development. And then I realized that I'm in
doing leadership in professional development the entire time. It just
happened to have a massive impact on guys' families and
healthy sexuality, so check it out. Thank you for listening.
Visit mindfulhabit heelp dot com if you need more help,
(25:36):
remember embrace your power of choice and feed the right
wolf inside you. We'll actually feed both of them. They're important,
but you're just got to learn to feed it in
the right way. Thanks for listening. That's all I got. Goodnight, everybody.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Bye.
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