Faith, Porn Addiction, and Hope: Interview with Sathiya Sam, Founder of Deep Clean

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's up everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
This is Craig here and you are listening to Sex
Afflictions and Porn Addictions, a podcast designed to help you
create and sustain healthy sexuality.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
And a great life.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I want to let you all know that Michelle and
I celebrated our thirteenth or the Mindful Habit celebrated our
thirteenth anniversary the second week of June, a couple of
weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
So so blessed to have you guys along for the ride.
And I've got a.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Really special guest today, Satya Sam runs the Deep Clean
program and he's been helping people just like I have
for a number of years. He has an awesome Instagram page.
I love his message. Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
Brother, Hey, thanks for having men and congrats on thirteen years.
You and your wife are are ogs pioneers in the space,
especially online, So so much respect for what you do
and it's a real privilege to be on here.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
You know, it's so great to see other people talking
about their story. And I don't mean to pat myself
on the back, but thirteen years ago, when she first
went on The Anderson Cooper Show and then went on
the then together we wanted on the Katie Kuric Show.
Like me going on that program eliminates the chance of

(01:19):
me returning to corporate life and getting you know, assistant
general counsel.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
It's crazy.

Speaker 4 (01:27):
I was just saying, you burned the boats with that one.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yes, we burned the boats with that one, and that
was part of my design. So what I want, where
I want to start is tell me how you got here?

Speaker 1 (01:37):
What what?

Speaker 2 (01:38):
What brought you to this place where you've got clients
like me all over the world and you know, lots
of followers and helping people.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
How did you get here?

Speaker 3 (01:47):
Yeah, I think I'm I'm pretty typical in that sense.
I had my own struggle with pornography. I think what's
a little bit different about my story is I'm not
I'm just not the person that you'd expect to have struggled.
I grew up in a Christian home. My dad was
a pastor. In fact, my dad is a third generation
pastor Craig, so strong lineage of you know, kind of
religious figures in our family. I went to Christian school.

(02:09):
In fact, it was in the computer lab of my
Christian school where I first got exposed to porn so
everything was set up for me to make good decisions
and not fall into this addiction. But I did, and
I felt the helplessness of it. I felt how difficult
it was, and I really had this thing in my
heart like, man, if I can ever figure this out,

(02:29):
I want to provide the solution that I wish I
had right now. And because I was more faith based
and faith oriented, I was looking to churches and religious
figures to get guidance on this, and the information and
the advice was so embarrassingly surface that I was really frustrated.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
It was like installing an Internet filter. Talk to somebody
you trust about it, or talk to your pastor about it,
pray about it more exactly, up the spiritual disciplines. And
you know, for me, like just in my you could
call it naivety or my innocence, I did these things,
you know, I did them one hundred and ten percent,
and I thought, perfect, I'm going to do these things.
I'm going to quit pornography. And truthfully, I didn't make

(03:10):
any progress I think I got. I Actually I would
say I've made worse progress because I thought I was
making progress because instead of struggling every day, I now
struggled every week, but every my weekly binges were way
more intense, so it was kind of like just stockpiling
everything for one day a week instead of doing it,
you know, a little bit every day. And that was
where I was like, Okay, I'm there's got to be
more to it than this, and if I do figure

(03:32):
it out or I was actually a little bit more
determined than that. I said, when I figure it out,
I will then do everything in my power to help
other guys figure it out.

Speaker 4 (03:39):
So we're not at the thirteen year mark.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
I launched Deep Clean in twenty eighteen and we've been
serving guys ever since, and that's a little bit of
kind of how we all started.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Nice, I love that you remind me of me, because
this idea Satya is when came to me walking out
of impatience. I was in impatient for three days. I
was addicted to bad salts, having an affair with prostitutes,
watching copious amounts of pornography, just got fired from my

(04:11):
second job. Michelle hadn't left yet because I was having
a mental health crisis and you know, wanted to be
there for me, at least for the kids and I
when I walked out of inpatient. They handed me my
you know, here's what you're gonna do after And it
was more therapy, in more meetings, which is wonderful and

(04:35):
which is which is all of that brought me here,
but in that low point because part of my job
as an executive was training and I think this that
this is going to lead us to a conversation I
want to have with you. Was was training the entire
you know, organizations of ten thousand employees, was developmental milestones,

(04:59):
met structure tools, measuring success, accountability.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Beyond saying you're accountable.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
And I had this crazy idea that I could build
a better mouse trap using those principles versus the weekly
you know, once a week fifty minutes with a therapist.
And I think you and I have some of the
similar experiences. Tell me, you know, what you think are

(05:30):
some of the challenges with traditional therapy and what experiences
you had?

Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 3 (05:37):
The first thing I'll say it just as a caveat,
is my life has been really impacted positively by therapy.
You know, I've had crisis of my own, like my
wife was bedridden when we were engaged. The wedding almost
got called off family drama, and a therapist he's still
a friend to this day, actually really helped me through
that season.

Speaker 4 (05:57):
So therapy has been really beneficial. But you and I
we were sharing, we have all.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
These clients that have come to us, that have seen
therapists for years, you know, and then they do one
session with us, or there are a couple of months
into our system and all of a sudden, like finally
they're getting breakthrough. And I try not to come up
with my own ideas and just spout them. You know,
I have a platform now. The podcast has grown a
lot one hundred thousand plus followers on Instagram, and I

(06:21):
take that seriously, like, if I'm going to say something,
I really want to make sure I've thought about it
that we could say there's evidence for this in our community,
and with the clients that we have where they've they've
done therapy before they didn't get the results. There's a
couple of commonalities that I've heard in a lot of
the stories, maybe not every single one of them, but
majority Number one is we work with men exclusively, and
so with men, I find that men generally need a system.

(06:43):
And so when you have a therapist who says, what
do you want to talk about today? Guys sometimes I mean,
guys will give you something. We have no problem come
up with something to talk about, but it's not necessarily
going to be the most helpful thing in the world.

Speaker 4 (06:54):
And I think for us, like deep Deep clean.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Is a system and there is an individual component, you know,
so it's still nuanced, but I think that lack of
system is one reason for sure. The second thing is
I would say, therapists are incentivized to keep you long term,
and so that's an unfortunate reality. Like that's something that
I've had to learn the hard way. I would say
the last few years getting married and then becoming a
father now and just having a business to manage. Is

(07:16):
you just realize you have to understand why people are incentivized.
You know, my my parents are getting ready to sell
the home, their home that you know, I kind of
grew up in and all that, and I'm helping them
work with the realtor, and as we're going through the contract,
I'm just asking, so, how does how does he make
his money? Now obviously he makes his money on a commission,
but they had the special offer. They're going to sell
your house in a certain.

Speaker 4 (07:33):
Amount of time. And I said, well, if he's going
to sell his house the house.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
In a certain amount of time, that means he's not
going to be as incentivized to get the best price
because his contract states he's got to hit by a
certain thing a certain timeframe, right, And you know we're
just kind of understanding the contract and the therapist.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Convas right motivations.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
Yeah, right, So I think an average therapist is going
to say, the longer you work with me, the more
money I make off you. Now, a good therapist knows
that even if you work with me for a finite
amount of time, if I solve your problem you referming
to other people, and then I'll just continue to make
revenue that way. But I think a lot of therapists
are incentivized maybe the wrong way. And then I would
say the last thing is that most therapists don't have

(08:11):
a track record helping people in this area. You know,
they're like, yeah, porn addiction, it's like all other addictions,
or you know, or they'll say por addiction really is
like it's a detachment issue, which that statement has some
truth to it. So then they just go through the
attachment issues, which covers part of the problem, but there's
nuances to porn addiction that somebody needs to be a
little more specialized in.

Speaker 4 (08:30):
So those are my theories.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
But I am really getting tired of it because a
lot of guys that we work with have spent money,
they've spent time, they're wasting like so many valuable resources
on therapy and just not getting the results that they want.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, no, you said.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
What you said is really important, And to be clear
to everybody listening, if that's your option, you get therapy,
You do whatever it is you have to do to
get the right help. This conversation isn't to bank therapy,
but is to give you the common limitations that we

(09:08):
both see so you can make good decisions going forward.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
And you can plug that gap and make sure you're
getting value.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Because the same as you know, I totally agree what
you're talking about a system. I remember sitting in therapy
once thinking to myself, what am I doing setting the agenda?
And I harked back to my corporate career as an
executive and as a leader.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
You know, what do you guys want to talk about now? Listen?

Speaker 2 (09:35):
That's important, that's important, But your point around structure is
really important. And the other theme that I see often
I want your thoughts on this is the.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Problem centric nature of the relationship.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
So if the therapist is anchored to the disease based model,
which has lots of great attributes to it, they're even
more focused on problem, problem, problem problem. And if you
extract that dynamic and put it in a high performance
environment or or leadership or corporate one, like you'd really

(10:14):
be screwing things up. You really would be screwing through
what things up? Is that your experience as well?

Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yeah, I would say that's my experience. It's not exclusive
to people that have worked with therapists, but I do
think therapists can can fall into the spiral or it's
very problem focused. And what happens long enough, and you
know this maybe better than I do, is if you
struggle with something for a really long time, and then
every week you hear a new problem, a new layer

(10:41):
of the problem you start to you end up becoming
so crippled by the shame of your addiction, the way,
and the gravity of your problem, that you could hear
the most inspiring message, you could have the most effective
tools right before you, and.

Speaker 4 (10:54):
You won't even use them.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
You won't even take advantage of the opportunities before you
because the problem of it is literally blinding you from
doing it. I was actually meeting with a client today.
He's had multiple emotional affairs. He got caught watching pornography
by his wife and his daughter at the same time.
His life has really, like really been impacted by this.
And all he's heard ever since kind of came out

(11:18):
and started to get help.

Speaker 4 (11:19):
Is your problem.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
This is going to take you, you know, decades to
recover from your marriage will never be the same. He's
hears so much negativity that like it's like I feel
like I'm a what do they call it, Like an NLP,
like neur linguistics programmer, Like I'm like trying to just
retrain him to think that, hey, this is actually possible,
because until he believes this is possible, he's not actually
going to take the action. So that's the most devastating part, right,

(11:41):
is if the problem becomes this big thing is people
don't take action. And you and I know, if people
don't take action, then they can take in all the
knowledge they want, nothing's going to actually change in their life.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
Oh and that is so true.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
And if you're obsessing on the problem and will the
physical act of PMO, porn, masturbation, orgasm. You're really only
focusing on a small fraction of the deeper underlying issues
because not doing that thing is.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
The function of something else.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
And the other important lesson that I learned is I
want your thoughts on this too. I love it when
clients have those big emotional catharsis moments. One of my
gifts is helping people go deeper quicker. But I learned
early on in my coaching practice that all those big moments,
you know, I take someone deeper than their therapist, deeper

(12:36):
than deeper than that they I realized that I was
doing it all wrong. I realized that I was repeating
the patterns of my therapy because I might be good
at it, and we all celebrate and pat ourselves on
the back. But one of the most important lessons that
I learned that those big emotional catharsis moments, while powerful,

(12:59):
we love them, we feel good when they happen. I
think of them like fireworks. They're big and powerful, but
they fade very quickly. And if you haven't operationalized that
learning that teaching and somehow incorporated it into the fabric.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Of your life.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
That big, powerful moment drives a few weeks, maybe a
few months of compliance, but because we're creatures of habit,
we return back to, you know, that that status quo thoughts.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Man, it's such a good point you're reminding me. I
have a friend who's a physiotherapist. He started working at
this clinic and the leader of the clinic, the founder
of it. He's got a couple of clients that every
time they see him, you can literally hear through the walls.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
You can hear the.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
Client screaming like, oh my god, you know, because the
pain is so intense. And he's a chiropractor, so he's
he's doing adjustments. And he said, like when he first
started working for the clinic, he was like, what is
go Like, what is going on in there? So we
asked the doctor about it, and you know, the chiropractors
explain what he does. And my friend said, how how
long have you been seeing this patient? And he was like, oh,

(14:11):
four or five years? Like she comes in every week
every week, right, because it's it's the it's the release,
it's it's that.

Speaker 4 (14:19):
Thing that they kind of get hooked on.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
And at that point, it's like, Oh, it doesn't even
matter if my back's getting actually getting adjusted or I'm
getting back into proper posture, proper alignment. At that point,
it's like you're kind of chasing the emotional experience. And
the thing is, and guys have a really hard time
admitting this, but watching pornography and struggling with any kind
of anything really in an addictive level is actually a

(14:41):
very emotional issue, right. It's it's not logical, because if
it was logical, you would put the filter on your
device and then it would stop you from watching it,
and then you wouldn't watch it anymore. But there's there's
a deeply psychological component to it. And I think sometimes
when you have solutions that kind of are playing into
these high inten it's emotional experiences, or like the breakthrough moment,

(15:02):
and we think, oh, this is the breakthrough moment, I
got it, not realizing that a breakthrough without a follow
through is useless, right, And I think it can play
into the addictive brain and actually keep us hooked on
the recovery instead of actually becoming recovered. I'll give you
another really good example, because we have a lot of
clients who come to us that are more faith based,

(15:23):
and so they've resorted to some of the things I mentioned,
like an Internet filter or praying more. And I know
you have faith based clients as well, so you're very
familiar with some of the syndromes that can come here.
And the one thing that I observed after a couple
of years of seeing guys who and I really I
was patient zero. I was the guy who wanted the
quick fixes as well. You know we're recording in January,
so January first, we'll come around. This is the year

(15:43):
twenty twenty five is going to be my year. And
I get all this momentum, and I would chase these
little highs. And what I didn't realize is every single
time I tried the new thing, I tried this little
quick fixed solution, I'm literally just reinforcing the part of
my brain that's been programmed by pornography to get quick kids,
to get the result immediately, and to not be patient, right,
to not have that delay, to not have any kind

(16:05):
of long term thinking. So this is like some of
the secret sauce of recovery is you're literally reprogramming yourself.
Even in the nature of your solution is reprogramming your
brain to think long term, to get out of the
immediate rewards, and to really be able to delay that gratification.
And I think if your practitioner isn't providing for you,

(16:27):
that they're really doing you a disservice. They're ultimately just
reinforcing the things that are going to keep you addicted.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
Oh gosh, I love that so much.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
I was talking to a client last week and it
was the right moment, at the right time, Satia to
deliver this message, and they were so focused on I
have to do this, I have to do this in
the moment, I got to do this, and listen, those
things are important, right, Those things are important. Obviously to
break a habit, you have to make a habit. I said,

(16:55):
I'm going to give you the worst, you know, life
coaching advice that I could possibly give you. It is
so counterintuitive, And I said, do nothing. Do nothing when
you get triggered. When you get triggered, when you're blowing
a gasket, and you've got to you know, execute your
trigger response plan or you know, whatever you call that

(17:17):
in the moment response when you know you've got to
be dialing up your self care. All these things you
have to do. I said, I want you to sit
in it, and.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
I want you to observe how it feels in your body.
I want you to observe the thoughts.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
And what's great about that advice is, and you know
you've been helping guys long enough, right to realize that
sustainability is everything identity change, self care, self esteem.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Like I almost want to say full stop. But obviously
there are.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
Other components to it, you know, the the healthy sexuality piece,
but I often find that's an outcome for most guys.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
And there's something about.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Being able to sit in your discomfort without attaching to it.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
And so I was I love that advice at the right.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Time, at the right moment, because someone's listening now is
saying someone.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
Paid him to tell him to do nothing.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Yes he did, and it worked and it helped thoughts
on that well.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
But this is the this is the whole basis of
sustainable recovery.

Speaker 4 (18:24):
I love that word you used.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
Is it's not it's not just that you rewire your brain,
and it's not just that you change your environment, and
it's not just that you form better habits. The actual
like the thing that most people that have a recovery
successfully have in common is they've built skills while they
were going through the recovery process that are just as
effective once they're recovered. So the example you just gave

(18:48):
is perfect. You have somebody who's probably a little bit
too activity oriented, probably a little bit in their fight
or flight kind of dysregulated state a little too commonly,
and if they don't learn how to slow down, if
they don't learn how to sit with discomfort for a
little bit longer than what they're comfortable with or what
they're accustomed to. Unfortunately, they can even go a year,

(19:09):
two years without pornography. But if they if they are
just constantly in fight or flight, if they're constantly jumping
from one activity to the next, that person's probably just
going to fall into another addiction.

Speaker 4 (19:19):
So you're giving that person a chance in.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
That moment to build a skill that they're going to
need on the other side of recovery. Because guess what,
once you quit pornography, it's not like all a sudden,
it's daisies and roses.

Speaker 4 (19:29):
You're never attempted like you got to do your work.

Speaker 3 (19:31):
Just as much it looks different, mind you, And there's
a I mean, you know, you've been free for a
long time. For me, it's been nine years, nine years
in February, so it's been a long time. But there's
still things that I have to do to regulate myself,
to keep myself in a good mental state, and to
make sure that I don't, you know, even veer off
in that direction. And that's where the skill building comes in,
because if you can build a skill during recovery, you

(19:53):
can still use it on the other side and it
should serve you just as well. And some skills are
training wheels. You know, they're if you during the recovery period,
but eventually you let go of them and you ride
your bike. But some skills actually make the spokes of
those two main tires, and things like this, like learning
to regulate, learning to slow down. These are some great
examples of skills that you need not only while you're recovering,

(20:15):
but on the other side of it.

Speaker 4 (20:16):
So I think you're banging on it.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
I think it's amazing, Craig that you provide this to
your clients because this is what they actually need to
be sustainable in their recovery.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
No, I love it, and I'm so glad to hear
that you agree because it's really, really, really important. I
want to declare right now for everybody listening, because people
think that you I'm recovered. Rainbows and unicorns, no problems.
They'll be on the occasional rainbow in uniform. But life

(20:44):
is hard.

Speaker 4 (20:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
At a recent low point, I lost someone close to me, Sothia,
and I might have been in a funk. Anyway, I
got triggered to put on a disguise, a fake nose
with the mustache, and cover up my tattoos and maybe

(21:06):
I could go to a strip club. I actually had
those thoughts in the old days. That would be a
reflection that I am, in fact a worthless piece of
you know what, I wasted my time. I wasted my
money in recovery now when I had and I want
other people to know this listening, it's not you don't
eliminate the triggers.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
Your mind is going to think all.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
Sorts of crazy things, especially when you're under duress in your.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Experience, a new moment, a new loss, a new pressure.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
But the difference now is instead of that a call
to act out, that is a call to action, and
I hear I need something.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
I'm in pain right now.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
I'm disregulated an addict, you know, the attic part saying hey, I.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Know how we can make this go away.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
I get a good idea, you know, the you know,
the glasses and the mustache, right, ridiculous, it's a ridiculous,
foolish thought. But I had them, and you know that
that was the big shift for me, was seeing that
it's okay to have them.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
Where men were wired for variety.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
This is a habit that for most of our clients
and ourselves goes back to childhood. Yea, and ignoring that
reality you do so at your peril. And so I
just wanted to say that to everybody listening.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
No, it's it's a great point. It's a great point.
You know, it's interesting. And I'm sure you've observed the
shift you actually kind of talked about earlier in the podcast,
like the world is waking up to the harmful effects
of pornography now more than ever before. And I know,
for me, like last year I got I started getting
all these invites to be on these fitness podcasts, one
of which is literally the number one ranked fitness podcasts
in America. They're called mind Pump. So they just want

(22:52):
to learn about pornography. Addiction and how porn affects people.
And so we had a great interview and one thing
that we got talking about there is the difference between
sobriet versus freedom. They're not the same thing, right, And
I think even what we were talking about earlier, like
a lot of whether your people go to therapy or
maybe they go with inexperienced.

Speaker 4 (23:10):
Coaches will put it that way.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
Often the emphasis is let's just get you sober, like
let's get that streak. You know, you've gotten nine days,
let' get it to one hundred and twenty, you know,
And it's it's all about like did you do the behavior?

Speaker 4 (23:21):
Did you not?

Speaker 3 (23:22):
When you focus on freedom, freedom is really about a
change of the heart. It's about a change as a person.
It's your entire nature changes. And you know, like I said,
I come from a faith based background. That's an incredible
like the whole idea of reincarnation or becoming a new
creation to use Christian language, is incredibly embedded into the
you know, the doctrine and the philosophies around recovery. What
you're just talking about though, because people always say they're like,

(23:43):
that's a great idea, Cythia. I love the thought but
how do I know that I'm free?

Speaker 4 (23:47):
And what you just said is exactly it.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
I say that that freedom is being able to look
at your your mistress in the face and.

Speaker 4 (23:54):
Still say no.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
And I think I think it takes time to develop that,
Like I know, for me, I was probably about three
years clean a porn maybe four years, yeah, four years actually,
and my wife and I had just bought a house.
I was exploring on the neighborhood. Gorgeous park now kind
of not not like a park like Grassy Knoll Park,
but like like trees, like these huge trees kind of
park with ponds and you know, and owls and birds

(24:17):
and all kinds of stuff flying around, like a really
beautiful park. There's this homeless encampment and I was.

Speaker 4 (24:23):
Just walking by.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
I thought it was kind of odd. So I was looking,
and I mean, there's like a walkman. You remember Walkman Craig,
You remember the disc So I hadn't seen one of
these in like two decades, you know. I just thought
it was so interesting. And as I'm kind of just
you know, scouring through the stuff, I see the stack
of porn magazines and you know, it's whatever. It's the
playboys and penthouses and all that stuff, and I immediately

(24:46):
see it and I walk away. You know, I've been
clean a few years and I just know like this
is I've been programmed enough to know, like, hey, don't
even entertain it, just walk away. But as I'm walking away,
this thought occurs to me. I'm gonna leave behind Playboy magazines.
Kids ride their bikes through here. There's young families that
are walking their kids around, and I actually have an
opportunity to, you know, put the dispose of these magazines

(25:07):
and make sure that somebody have the first.

Speaker 4 (25:09):
Exposure right right.

Speaker 3 (25:11):
So that but the question is like, but am I
Am I talking myself into doing that? But really I'm
just trying to get a little hit, or am I
Is this like genuine charity here?

Speaker 1 (25:20):
You know?

Speaker 3 (25:21):
So I'm kind of I'm doing a little self analysis
and I feel like, no, I'm in a good place.
I'm gonna I'm gonna throw these magazines out, so I
just I collect them all.

Speaker 4 (25:29):
Thank god.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
You know, the covers are nothing too crazy. I got
my hand on the cover, my other hand underneath, and
I'm carrying the stack of magazines and I'm looking around
in the nearest garbage can it felt like a ten
minute walk. It was, It was probably two minutes, but
it was far far away, you know, and every.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Step heavier and heavier, and you get ten minutes, is uh,
legit right?

Speaker 3 (25:50):
And every single step it's just like, oh, I could
take it, you know, I take a peek.

Speaker 4 (25:53):
My brain's going there. Anyways.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
I make it to the garbage tan, I dispose of them.
And I just realized, man, Sothia, you know too years ago, Cynthia,
you know, five years prior to that, never like I
could have never done that. Something, something had shifted and
I was able to look at the very thing that
had caused me so much pain and so much dysfunction.
I was able to look at in the face and

(26:15):
still say no. And I think that that's freedom. You know,
when you pursue sobriety. Yeah, when you pursue sobriety, you
don't necessarily get that right. You're always one bad decision away.
Any day could be your relapse day. You kind of
live with this lingering paranoia that you're going to go
back to who you used to be. I think freedom
acknowledges there's a change. The works still needs to be

(26:35):
done to steward it and to facilitate it. But there's
a change there and I am actually a free man.
And you know that to me is the that's the
pen ultimate goal of the recovery process, and that's what
deepleans all about.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
I want to hear more about the role that faith
has played for you. I know it's important in your
life personally. And as you were talking earlier when we
started the all you talked about how as a child
you were set up for success and you know, I
might not think of you as someone who would fall

(27:11):
into pornography. Third generation minister's kid, and in fact, that
is exactly you know, the client profile of a lot
of my clients. When I hear minister's child or pastor's child,
I gotta make sure it's not a blind spot. But

(27:31):
I immediately know I need to explore the role of shame.
And there's this this this conflict of this this shame
that that says you are bad. And then you've got
these amazing, beautiful principles of grace and forgiveness and they
are so often at odds.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Tell me about the role that faith has played for you.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
Yeah, I mean faith, Faith has definitely compounded my addiction
and I had it, and I think it's given extra
dimensionality to my recovery on the other side as well.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
You really explain that very well.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
Right, There's there's this this standard that exists in faith practices,
and certainly as a Christian, there's standards that we are
to uphold. And then you also have the grace of
God and the forgiveness of God because he knows that
you can't meet your standards. For me personally, the linking
piece or the thing that connects these two concepts that
I had to wrangle with and wrestle with for years

(28:31):
and years, And honestly, if this would have been my
priority early on in recovery, I think I would have
hit freedom a lot, a lot faster, a lot sooner.
But that's the concept of identity, and this is the
third We have a three pillar process. That's what deepclean represents,
and the third pillar is shifting your identity in this
context of faith. For me, my value as a person

(28:52):
was equated with how well I did, how well I performed.

Speaker 4 (28:55):
So in addition to you know, being.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
Very involved at church and all that, I was also
a high achieving academic.

Speaker 4 (29:00):
I skipped a grade.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
I had my honors degree by the time I was twenty,
and I had just learned that whatever you do, that's
the reflection of who you are, which means when I
perform well and I'm achieving well and I'm getting research awards,
and I actually had five figures in research grants. The
first couple of years I was in university, I was
doing some really interesting stuff. I felt good about myself,
I felt valuable. But anytime I struggled or I fell short,

(29:24):
or certainly if I was watching pornography behind closed doors, secretly,
I had this sense that, like you said, I am wrong.
There's something fundamentally wrong with me. And so a huge
part of my recovery was actually dissociating my value as
a person and my performance, whether it was academically or religiously,
or even relationally or otherwise. And it was learning that

(29:47):
as a standalone on my own, I have inherent value
and worth, and that even God sees that. In fact,
God sees me as valuable before I could do anything
for him and regardless of my shortcomings. And I think
that's a nice thing to say in theory, you know,
but when you really understand that at a heart level,
when you really experience it, that's really where your life
can change. And that's where my identity started to shift.

(30:09):
So it was it was a detachment from behaviors and
worth and value as a person.

Speaker 4 (30:14):
Does that Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Oh my god, it makes perfect sense. And it's not
like you can have the sin, but it's not like,
let's just talk about it from a model perspective that
they're you know, what was the last words of Jesus
on the cross before he said father, why have you

(30:36):
forsaken me?

Speaker 1 (30:37):
He forgived the murderer like forgiveness and grace.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
And I just love helping clients operationalize their faith and
not just indeed, but an identity like you talked about.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
There's so many you.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Know, low hanging fruit, you know, to help change because
they've been punishing themselves. They've been bad. They're bad, they're bad,
they're bad. And yeah, one of the things I like
about you is that you probably know this too. There
are programs out there, leading programs where the guys are
in a circle with one in the middle, where they're

(31:16):
not supporting him and lifting them up. They are shaming him.
They are shaming him and I'd like that you've taken
this in a more accurate faith the line, and you know,
my opinion, my humble opinion, and in an alignment with
those principles. And I was wondering if you wanted to

(31:38):
add anything to that.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
Well, no, I I agree with it, and I just
think the forgive, the forgiveness piece. We could do a
whole episode on this, but the forgiveness piece is such
a big deal because.

Speaker 4 (31:49):
Think about what we were talking about earlier.

Speaker 3 (31:51):
So our second pillar is healing of the heart, and
this is where we explore trauma. This is where we're
very fond of inner child work. I know you're fantastic
with I FI and internal family systems. This is where
all that where we'd categorize all that kind of you know,
deeper work, and to me, the ultimate result in a
lot of these scenarios, you have a negligent parent, maybe

(32:11):
you have a history of some sexual abuse, or maybe
it was more subtle, you know, for me, it was
it was a It was a mother who was very
loving but not expressive, and her lack of expression really
left me feeling unloved and questioning kind of my own value.
And out of that place, I started to just seek
female attention, you know, chasing girls, and then pornography. Pornography

(32:31):
was my way of feeling like I was affirmed and
accepted by someone, you know, very subtle.

Speaker 4 (32:36):
You would never know.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
My mom wasn't negligent in an overt way, but there
was there was a negligence or a lack there that
drove a lot of my behaviors. And it's helpful to
label it. You know, that in of itself is incredibly liberating.
But it's a completely different dimension when you forgive, you know,
and when you can say, like the adage that we
have in our community for forgiveness is you owe me

(32:58):
nothing like you may have on whatever it is. You
owe me nothing like I'm letting go. And it doesn't
mean that what you did was okay. We're not justifying
it necessarily, We're just saying I'm not gonna let it
burden and hinder me. That is incredibly powerful, and I
would say that's only one part of the equation. The
other big forgiveness piece is forgiving yourself. You know, I
was working with a tech entrepreneur, very very successful at

(33:20):
a young age, and you know, he was about to
cross forty and you know, these decade birthdays. They have
this way of kind of they can get in your
head a little bit, you know. So he's in his
head and all he was thinking is, man, how much further.

Speaker 4 (33:32):
Ahead would I be?

Speaker 3 (33:32):
In Like this is a guy, very successful, beautiful family,
stable in the community, and all he can think about is, man,
how much further would I be had it not been
for my porn addiction? And that's a great symptom of
or it's an obvious symptom of somebody who has not
forgiven themselves, you know. And so I think we can
understand forgiving others, but I think forgiving yourself as well
a very very important part of this conversation that often

(33:55):
gets overlooked well.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
And it's not a one time event.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
One of the things that I've learned about forgiveness through
parts work, that part that can't forgive is pushing your client,
pushing us to be better. We want to be better.
We don't want to forget. We want to learn from
that lesson. So that forgiveness, that part that can't forgive,

(34:21):
is actually trying to help, the problem is it leaves
you stuck in shame and only increases the chances that
your outcomes are going to be poor.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
And when I learned, because what would happened.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
For me is I have done a moral offensive, denigrating
acts to myself and other people. And I used to
get these shame hits and it would be like, don't forget,
like a reminder of how worthless I really was, and

(34:56):
how stained I was and how broken I was. It was,
you know, further evidence of that I'm just a bad person.
And that was after the work, like I did all
this work on myself, and I'm still having memories of
this event. I obviously can't let go of it. I

(35:17):
have to dig deeper around it, right, And so now
you know you're focused more on that in traditional treatment,
and I remember realizing that, wait a minute, I have
to operationalize forgiveness. Forgiveness is not a one time event.
It is a process. It's a skill, yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:37):
Right, right, like we were talking about earlier, right, building
these skills. Great example, actually, what a great example of
a skill that will help you in recovery, that is
necessary to experience recovery. But you will still use it.
On the other side, You're still going to have to
work through relationship dynamics, work through her work through pain.
I love what you said though the emphasis there. It's
not a one time thing and you may have moments

(35:59):
of deeper levels of forgiveness, but it is the ongoing
process where it becomes really powerful, you know, like the
example of my mom. You know, I remember when I
identify this going through a forgiveness process. But it's not
like that dynamic ceases to exist. You know, I still
have a relationship with my mom. I still see her
on a very regular basis. She lives five minutes down

(36:20):
the road from me. We have grandkids, or we have
her grandkids now, so you know, she's obviously always excited
to hang out with them and see them. And so
if I if forgiveness is just a one off thing,
then what happens the next time that you're triggered? What
happens the next thing they do something that hurts you
end up kind of handcuffed, or you spiral back. And
this is where misinformation can be really harmful because you think, no,
I went through the forgiveness process, this shouldn't be happening,

(36:42):
and then people will start to self sabotage. I'm sure
you see this happen all the time. We definitely do
people make some progress and then they just they just
slightly misunderstand what it looks like or how long it takes,
and all of a sudden they start to self sabotage
over nothing. And the best example we have in our
space is people who street count. Right, so you have
somebody who is counting streaks and then let's say they
let's say they're doing the work, and sometimes we need

(37:04):
to do some course crashing with our clients because they're
doing the work, they're getting deeper underneath the surface, they're
tackling the roots. They're you know, six months and then
they have a setback, they have a slip, and it's like, man,
like the sky is falling, you know, and we have
to just remind them, like, wholl hold on a sec,
Hold on a sec.

Speaker 4 (37:21):
So you were struggling with.

Speaker 3 (37:22):
Porn on a daily basis or whatever it was, You've
gone six months, You've done the deeper work. So if
I'm hearing you right, you've had one slip in the
last six months. And they're like, well, yeah, I mean
when you put it that way, yeah, but you know,
but my streak and da da da da da, And
it's like, no, dude, you you had one like you
get to decide how you respond to this slip right now,
this can be a little bump in the road, or

(37:43):
this can be the thing that sets you back into
a tailspin and you can binge all over again. But
it doesn't have to be that way. And if you're
trying to uphold the streak, then yeah, you know, this
is caused for a downward spiral and a pity party.
But if we can zoom out a little bit and
maybe pay attention to the larger trends, keep focusing on
the roots, this is just a little bump in the road,
and you get to continue. And that those the little

(38:03):
the perspective that right, it's the perspective that really goes
a long way to keep you on the right track
long enough until you get those lasting results that you're
after exactly.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
And I find that.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
My Christian clients really struggle with the concept of harm
reduction and seeing it, you know, from that perspective. And
a client said something to me recently that I thought
was awesome, and it just because the awareness clicked in,

(38:36):
he said, I just realized that I pmoe more times
than I brushed my teeth.

Speaker 4 (38:45):
Wow, do the math you know.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Think about some of your clients, you know, early on
when they were kids, sometimes a few times a day,
definitely daily for ten, twenty thirty forty years, and you've
not done this thing for any period of time and
in any other area of business or weight loss or
it would be a tremendous achievement.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
It would be an incredible achievement.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yet it's frame the shame part awakens and and you know,
really can ruin the show if they don't have guys
like you, you know, bringing them up a few thousand
feet and saying, wait a minute, we can learn from this,
you know, and make things better and strengthen, or we
can anchor ourselves to this notion that we're back to

(39:35):
square one.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
There's no such thing as square one.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
Yeah, stop, stop at stop, that doesn't exist, you know.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Yeah, no, it's it's true. And it's all about the mindset.
So I want to ask you, I want to ask
that back to you. When someone does say, like back
to square one, what do you say, how do you
guys somebody in give them that perspective shift?

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah, I asked them questions on what do they think
they've accomplished since well, I asked them to define square one?

Speaker 1 (40:06):
What does that mean?

Speaker 2 (40:07):
And you know, when you ask them those questions, you
find that when you peel back the layers, not too many.
It's it's the my streak is gone. My streak is gone.
So I'm back to square one. And so I help them.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
Identify the progress that they've made.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
I try to put the accomplishment of any you know,
quote unquote sobriety and perspective. And now I've got this
brushing your teeth analogy because I got the calculator out
and did some math and I went, oh my god,
you know, if you're not brushing three times a day,
you're doing this more than that. And help them and
try to get them excited about learning from the mistake

(40:49):
and what systemic changes can we make going forward.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
Because when you've been doing.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
This as long as I have and as long as
you have, you see.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
People post sobriety experience tremendous pain and suffering the loss
of a loved one, a job loss, physical pain, cancer diagnosis.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yeah, love you, brother, he knows, he knows who I'm
talking to. A brother with a recent cancer diagnosis. That's
gonna punch you in the face hard, and you are gonna.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Get triggered hard and you're gonna feel and I felt
this way.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
It feels in that moment like you haven't done a
stitch of work on yourself.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
Here you are back to square one. Faulse wrong, incorrect.
That's the part.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
That's the part that wants you to do better and
punishing you for doing bad. And you know has all
these you know, all this training and it's not just
in training, I mean training through professionals. In the reward
in the twelve step model, which totally makes absolute sense,

(42:07):
the reward of the sobriety.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
You know, I wonder like in a perfect world.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
With unlimited resources, we would also reward how many times
they've exercised and practiced mindfulness and shared a difficult truth
with their spouses, you know, the make a habit part
of the equation.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
And so that's that's what I say.

Speaker 3 (42:28):
Yeah, Yeah, I think I think it's a good point
the make a habit of it too, right, Like it's
a lot of the mental patterns and the mental changes.

Speaker 4 (42:36):
And I think the one thing, and I'm.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
Not sure how your your work is structured, but the
one thing that I've been really thinking about more in
our community We had a really good year in twenty
twenty four, just incredible client outcomes, just fewer and more
stories of guys coming back eighteen months twenty four months later,
being like, hey man, we had one guy who you know,
he quit porn He sent us it was run eighteen.

Speaker 4 (43:00):
Months I think that he had gone.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
And then he said, by the way, I've run twenty
two hundred twenty storry twenty two hundred miles since I
started or since I quit porn And we're like, oh,
what's the number, Like what are you talking about?

Speaker 4 (43:12):
What's the number there?

Speaker 3 (43:13):
And he's like, I always want to train for ultra marathons,
but I just never had the ambition.

Speaker 4 (43:17):
When I was addicted.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
So once I quit pornography, I started training and he's
run a couple half marathons and he's kind of gearing up,
and so we were gaining more stories like this, and
we're kind of trying to figure out like, okay, what
you know, what what's the deal? Like what's the commonality?
And I the it's consistency over long enough periods of time.
That's like, I mean, there's definitely some qualities, like there's
some characteristics, there's some factors there's some specifics, but like

(43:40):
the one thing that me and you, all of your
successful clients and all of our successful clients have in common.

Speaker 4 (43:45):
Is they didn't quit.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
And so I think I think it's just a huge
part of this, like whether you're gonna encounter, you know,
a mental barrier, whether you get triggered by something that
you weren't prepared for, whether you just you just make
a stupid decision, like you you kind of give into
one of those like subtle gateways, like you have two
drinks too many, right, and that's all it takes. Like
it's it's one two drinks too many, And then you're
scrolling and you're watching stuff you know you shouldn't watch

(44:08):
those setbacks they might happen, and if they happen along
the way, the question you need to ask yourself is
just how do I keep going? How do I keep
moving forward? And as long as you can answer that
question enough times, eventually you're going to find yourself on
the other side of freedom. It's just some people they
just don't ask that question enough, or they don't have
a guide like you or you know, somebody to guide them.

Speaker 4 (44:27):
Along the way to keep them on the right path.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
So it's a big deal, you know, just the consistency
and the fortitude that you build within that process.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Well, and you know, first off, we celebrate failure. Whenever
someone shares that they slip. I want the first words
to be.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
Out of my mouth congratulations.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
Now that I know it sucks and I you know,
but but I you know, and I like surprising some
people with that perspective because it kills us or it
makes us stronger. Yeah, the point you made about out sustainability,
the reality is, and I work with a lot of
executives like you.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
If you looked at.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
The scope of this thing that we're trying to prevent,
and we agree that in order to prevent that, we
have to live a great life. We have to take
care of ourselves, feel good about ourselves, have healthy belief systems,
learn tools to respond to conflict, practical mindfulness, emotionally regulate,
have mentorship, are connected with other men.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
Like it's a list.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
If you want to live a great life, you practice gratitude,
you have strong in your faith.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
You have to do that. And that's why.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
I call my long term support program the next level
because the reality is, and I always like to acknowledge
self serving things. When I'm talking about this stuff is
you need long term help, but that long term mentorship, expertise, accountability, community, vulnerability,

(46:05):
like those things that that you know, our clients outsourced
to us.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
You know, do you agree that you need those things?
Do you want to live a great life? Then you
got to like a mastermind.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
And that's how I know build my long term program
is we're focused on creating a great life and building
the tools or.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
The systems to make that happen. You know what I mean.
You're feeling me?

Speaker 4 (46:33):
Oh dude.

Speaker 3 (46:34):
You know when when my son was born about a
year and a half ago, I took some time off
and I didn't know.

Speaker 4 (46:41):
I was just a new parent, so I didn't know how.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
Much newborn sleep the first couple of weeks right before
before you get some of the sleepless nights and all that.
So the first couple of weeks he was born, I
actually had all this all this time and all this space,
and so I was kind of just reflecting on the
work we do and you know, where the direction that
I want to take things in over the next couple
of years. And I had this little this little phrase
kind of pop out in my head. Because I was

(47:04):
looking at the client stories, the one of them I
just mentioned to you, but lots of guys who and
you have lots of stories like this too, Right, Guys
quit pornography and then it's not just like the story
ends there. They become better husbands, they become better fathers,
They go and they start that business they always want to.
They get a promotion at work, they start volunteering in
the community because they don't have to worry.

Speaker 4 (47:23):
About being found out.

Speaker 3 (47:24):
You know, there's all these different things that guys do
to make the world a better place. And I realized
that if you change the man, you change the world.
That was kind of this phrase that popped up in
my head. And so, you know, we're we're still developing it,
but I've been really thinking about that's cool what you
call it the next level?

Speaker 4 (47:38):
That what your next your next step is. I love that. Man.
We've been really thinking about that too, because.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
It's not actually about quitting pornography. It's just that pornography
or whatever the affliction is that you have is the
barrier that's stopping you from unleashing your potential, becoming everything
God made you to be and making this world a
better place, and quitting pornography opens the path to do that.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
But you know, for me, I.

Speaker 3 (47:59):
Mean, I've had to pay for goodness, like so many
coaches to help me with business and my finances and
my health and my fitness.

Speaker 4 (48:07):
There's been so.

Speaker 3 (48:07):
Many areas where I've just needed guidance to do better
and to really, like, you know, harness the fullness of
my potential. And when guys quit porn, that that fullness
becomes available. And it's cool that you have a program
like that because we're we're working on something very similar,
like of the same mindset at least of how do
we help you kind of rebuild your life, because that's
actually what this is about. This is not about throwing

(48:28):
stones at the porn industry and all that kind of stuff.
There's certainly a conversation to be had there, but I'm
much more interested in just seeing guys fulfill their potential
make the world a better place.

Speaker 4 (48:37):
That to me, that's like the ultimate reward of all
of this.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
I love that my quote.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
So you know, I've always tried to advertise ethically and
I know you do too, But one on my YouTube videos, man,
and I'm not changing the title because it's my truth.
The cure for sex and porn addiction, I got to
right on the top of my chance as the cure
for sex and porn addiction is the aggressive pursuit of
a great life. And while there's certainly a cliche when

(49:09):
you look at people right on the other side of
this and they're they're you know, not just sober, but healthy.
Well they're healthy, they're happy, they feel good about themselves.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
They're connected, their faith is strong. Like that's the aggressive
pursuit of a great life.

Speaker 4 (49:24):
Yeah, dude, one hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
And I looked, I don't think that's I don't think
that's a crazy statement to say that that's the cure.
Like there's actually data that would suggest they there was
one stay in particular over three thousand participants, and they
were examining, like, Okay, what factors in somebody's life are
the most associated with viewing pornography? And they found that
the leading cause, if you had this in your life,

(49:46):
much much higher chance than anything else that you'd watch
porn meaninglessness in life, just a lack of any kind
of purpose or like you said, like an aggressive pursuit,
like there was no reason to live. There was nothing
that was really driving them, you know. Jordan Peterson one said, like,
the reason people quit an addiction is because they find
something better to do, and so I think that's that's it.

(50:07):
Like pornography kind of gets you out of debt, but
then somebody's got to teach you how to build wealth, right,
how to actually build that long term sustainable yeah value,
you know, that's actually going to make your life worthwhile.
And I think that's a really cool part of it.
One of the things we do with our clients very
early on is we have them set a vision board.
And it's so funny. I don't know if you were
like this, Craig. I've always been pretty ambitious. So even

(50:30):
when I was at the peak of my addiction, where
I felt really hopeless, I still had some some dreams,
you know, I still had some ideas of what my
life could be.

Speaker 4 (50:36):
Like one day. But we have some clients who don't.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
They're so far down the shame spiral or the hopelessness
spiral that that and that's like where the coaching actually
begins for us. It is like, hey, let's just let's
just imagine what life could be like if you quit pornography.
Sometimes that's where the work is, but it's so important
to kind of just set a vision ahead, set something
that you're heading towards. Because again, whether it looks exactly

(51:01):
the way you draw it up.

Speaker 4 (51:02):
Or not, that's not really the point.

Speaker 3 (51:04):
But the point is you have a direction, you have
something you're going after, a direction to move in that's
going to motivate you to, you know, do some of
those more challenging aspects of recovery, or survive that temptation
or that trigger on a.

Speaker 4 (51:16):
Really weak day.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
You need those things to to really keep you going.
So I think, yeah, without that pursuit, I like that,
the aggressive pursuit, and without that kind of that really
deep rooted sense of purpose, very very hard to step
forward and certainly to stay free once you're on the
other side.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yeah, No, listen, we get a lot in common, and
I hope we get to do this again.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
We will.

Speaker 4 (51:38):
You're gonna be on my show, man. I'm excited to
have you on.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
I'm so excited for that. How do people find you
on the web?

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Give you know, I'm going to post the links below,
but how they can get in touch with you and
find you?

Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (51:52):
I respond to all my dms on Instagram so if
anybody ever wants to hit me up.

Speaker 4 (51:56):
Over there, I would love to do that. We're very active.

Speaker 3 (51:58):
And then I have a book called The Last Relapse
and for any podcast that I'm on, I always like
to give it away for free, So you can get
a free download of it at the Last relapsebook dot
com or you know, if you are a physical book person,
you can buy it online as well, and we donate
all the profits that we make. That one's really just
trying to get our system out and accessible to as
many people as possible. So either those places are great

(52:19):
places to find us.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Awesome and in domain one more time.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
The Last Relapsebook dot com, The.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Last Relapsebook dot com.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Thank you so much for being on sex afflictions and
porn addictions. Can't wait to continue this conversation and I'm
really privileged to know you.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (52:37):
Oh thanks for having men. It was my pleasure.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Awesome all right, till next time. The cure is the
aggressive pursuit of a great life.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
And if you need help, mentorship, expertise, accountability, reach out
to one of us.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
We thrive on this. It feeds us.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
There's nothing you know better than helping someone change their
lives and thanks for listening. Everybody, make it great, have
a great day.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
Bye.

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