November 12, 2025 • 40 mins
They told you masculinity was toxic.
They were wrong.
In this episode, Craig Perra sits down with Geoff Laughton and Mark Johnson, founders of The Undaunted Man, for one of the most raw and powerful conversations you’ll hear this year.
They expose how modern men have been shamed for being masculine, how this has left millions lost, numb, and disconnected, and what it takes to reclaim strength without losing heart.
You’ll learn:
-Why so many men secretly feel broken
-The difference between healthy masculine and unhealthy control
-Why community and brotherhood matter more than ever
-How to be fearless and live with purpose again
If you’ve ever felt disconnected from your power, this conversation will wake you up.
👉 Learn more at www.theundauntedman.com
Remember: No one’s coming to save you. Feed the right wolf inside you.
Visit: https://mindfulhabithelp.com/group-coaching
They were wrong.
In this episode, Craig Perra sits down with Geoff Laughton and Mark Johnson, founders of The Undaunted Man, for one of the most raw and powerful conversations you’ll hear this year.
They expose how modern men have been shamed for being masculine, how this has left millions lost, numb, and disconnected, and what it takes to reclaim strength without losing heart.
You’ll learn:
-Why so many men secretly feel broken
-The difference between healthy masculine and unhealthy control
-Why community and brotherhood matter more than ever
-How to be fearless and live with purpose again
If you’ve ever felt disconnected from your power, this conversation will wake you up.
👉 Learn more at www.theundauntedman.com
Remember: No one’s coming to save you. Feed the right wolf inside you.
Visit: https://mindfulhabithelp.com/group-coaching
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's up everybody? You are listening to Craig Parra.
I'm the founder of the Mindful Habit Systems and this
is Sects, Afflictions and Porn Addictions, a podcast to help
you create and sustain healthy sexuality and a great life.
I'm so excited today. I've got two very very special
(00:23):
guests that i want to talk about. Jeff Lawton and
Mark Johnson, both from The Undaunted Man, and we're going
to talk about that. These are two brothers that I
met at the Big Tenth Summit in Loveland, Colorado. I've
shared with you how powerful that was to have all
of these men and women who support men under one umbrella.
(00:43):
It was a really powerful connecting experience, and it got
me to meet these two beautiful men. I'd like to
introduce them now. Hey, Mark, Hey Jeff, welcome, Thank you
good to be here. All right, so let's do this.
Instead of me butchering a by all that you've given
me to read, we've been doing this enough. I would
(01:03):
like you Mark and then Jeff, introduce yourselves to my audience.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Let them know who you are, what you do, and
why you do it well.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
In I've been coaching people for close to thirty years
now in various fields. I started out with that risk
kids back in the not Lake, started working with co
ed adults in the early two things, and for the
nine years now along with we've been working exclusively in
(01:34):
men's work and coaching men and running awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Thank you Mark, Jeff. Tell me about yourself, brother.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Well, I have been a relationship coach for thirty years
and I've been a men's coach and men's room leaner
for twenty five now. And I got into men's who
work in my early things because I really didn't have
men around me growing up.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And so to your question of why I do this and.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
What I love about it, is when I learned how
amazing men could be. I just found I had a
passion for supporting men in being the best version of
themselves that they could be, and have been doing that
for a long time pretty much as a lone ranger.
And then Mark popped into one of my men's groups,
(02:29):
and we found out that we were twin sons from
different mothers, and he thought that we could really create
a pretty powerful community and company out of what we
were doing with men, and so here we are and
the rest is history. And I'm also a husband, a
(02:49):
father of an amazing man, and grandfather of a handful
of man to be.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Oh grandfather, that's good, a little crazy. Well, Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, guys,
So glad that you're going to be here. And the
way I was thinking is I'm going to toss these
questions up in the year and maybe Mark you answer one,
Jeff answer one. And I think some of the questions
are going to require both of you to really get.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
To the meat of it.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So I want to first talk about how did the
Undaunted Man as a name come about?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
And what does being undaunted mean to you?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
On Daunted became our name because we are ask the
spicy questions right out of the gate, Craig, because because
masculinity has been being demonized in the West since the sixties,
then that's the nineteen sixties. I guess I have to
say that now, Gosh, I'm old, and so many of
(03:52):
the men that I've been working with since well, jeez,
even as far back as nineteen nineteen, and that Jeff
and I worked together with are actually afraid to be masculine.
They come into our groups and they're of their masculinity
because they've been told that to be masculine is to
be fundamental broken or fundamentally wrong, and that the way
(04:18):
to be a good man is to be as much
like a woman as humanly. And so the cure, what
we found, is to help men to become fearless, which
is what undaunted means to be, and that is to
be fearlessly themselves, not less according to our definition of
what masculinity is, not fearless according to any vision that
(04:41):
we have for them or for men ineral, but fearless
according to their inner voice, their inner leading, in their
masculine nature. However that expresses itself.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
I love that answer because so many of us have
been taught to hide, to suppress, to and we're supposed
to like something, supposed to you know, be a certain way.
And finding that your version of masculine authenticity, authenticity, I
think is really important. Jeff, what do you want to
add to that, if anything?
Speaker 4 (05:15):
Well, and there's another definition of undaunted that says courageously resolute.
You know, in the climate that Mark was just talking about,
you got to have balls to really, I mean above
and beyond the obvious. He really it takes courage and
(05:38):
resolved to be a voice for the beauty and value
of masculine energy. And we're also hugely advocates for the
reality that every human being has masculine energy, every human
being has feminine energy, and we need both of them.
(06:01):
They are equally powerful, equally necessary, and we're very resolved
around that mission. That Mark, you spoke, and that takes courage,
and it takes a real clarity of knowing who you
are and what you stand for. So that really, Mark
(06:22):
and I have done a lot of work individually and
together to help ourselves keep walking that talk and that journey,
and it only seemed natural to really have that be
our name.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Mmmmm, beautiful, beautiful Mark. Did you want to add something
to that?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, I want to because Jeff and I have been
doing this together for a long time. We both think
of different things at different moments in the conference. One
of the experience, well, I want to say all, but
I'm sure there's an exception. Nearly all of our men
have expensed them shut down, like the expression of their
(07:03):
masculine energy is actively discouraged, actively criticized from their youngest
days in school. I mean, these days it happens, but
it absolutely it happens in kindergarten, happens in first grade.
When you know boys are being that behavior is criticized,
and it's masculine behavior is actively encouraged and rewarded. And
(07:30):
the double standard that exists there needs to be corrected.
And it's not about placing one above the other sex.
It's treating everyone as equals and encouraging everyone to be
the fullest and best version of themselves according to their
(07:50):
and their natural inks. And people that are born large
portions of masculine energy is most deserve to be able
to express that fully without being punished or criticized, or
suppressed or rejected.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
And let's talk about some of that programming.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
How are we raised to suppress that masculine energy?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
And I'll put that out there to both of you.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Guys, go in Mark, uh, well, I'm sure you can
go back to your own experience in grade school, in
junior high and boys act out. When boys are aggressive,
that gets shut down. When boys are assertive, that gets
There's been long. I'm old enough to remember the conversations
(08:36):
in the seventies and about how we needed to encourage
girls to be more assertive and boys were told to
sit down and shut up to allow the girls to
That message, you know, back in the seventies, eight and
eighties was relatively primitive. Nowadays, it starts so young that
(08:57):
when boys act out, they are told to sit down,
be quiet, be good, be at the same time that
girls are actively encouraged to be to they're not told
to sit down and be quiet so that the boys
get a chance. The kids today are not treated equally,
and boys especially are treated.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Well.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
They're expected to act like little girls.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Jeff, your experience or your thoughts, thank you.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Mark Well, I'm probably a bit of an outlier in
that I growing up, I had a single mom, so
I was raised by my mom and her mom, and
I had one sister, no brothers. Every dog we ever
(09:47):
had growing up was female. So I had no fucking
idea what it meant to me a guy, you know.
And I remember growing up on John Lee movies and
Bonanza Tosha. How old I am really admiring God, even
(10:08):
Roy Rogers, you know, admiring cinematic or TV versions of men.
And I didn't have any any real home modeling of
what that was going to look like. What would be
you know, quote unquote being a good man or being
(10:28):
a quote unquote bad man. And I also, my mom
had the most terrific taste in men known on earth
at that time, in my opinion, And so even the
men that might have been around our household from time
to time tended to be really really weak men, addicts
(10:52):
and the like. I didn't really my first examples of
Matt sculine energy tended to be bullies, boys that were bullies,
and so I actually grew up feeling like, I think
(11:15):
men are kind of fucked up, and that was just
my direct microcosm experience. And then when I got into
high school and all my teachers were female. I didn't
have a male teacher until I was in sixth grade.
And when I think back on him, good guy, and
(11:38):
he was married to a woman that was very masculine dominant,
so he was kind of like a nineteen sixties version
of Robert Glover's No More Mister Knife's Guy. So I
didn't really I didn't really have anything to go by
until high school. And I had a counselor in high school.
(12:04):
Mister Lemcule was his name, and he was the football coach.
And you know, you look at me right now, do
I just scream jock.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
No.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
But he was such a masculine guy that had a
heart as big as he had powerful, strong, masculine energy,
and he.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Knew when it was time.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
I mean, you did not fuck with him, but when
I would go into his office and be, you know,
a tearful mess because I'd get beaten up on the schoolyard,
he didn't pamper me with feminine energy. He gave me
his heart, but he also taught me how to be
a boy and a young man, so that that was
(12:55):
really the beginning of it. And the rest came into
place when I was in my early face. So I'm
kind of a late bloomer to that answer.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
And what happened in your early forties, Jess.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
I had my wife and I have one child together,
a boy, and when he was about thirteen and a half,
he one of my best friends offered to work with
him to get him ready for an initiation ceremony that
(13:33):
was going to revolve around the material in Robert Morris's book,
King Warrior, Magician Lover. And he spent a year working
with Mark that's my son's name, and getting him ready
for an all day initiation experience that happened in southwestern Colorado,
(13:53):
and he got to pick the men that were there,
which included my dad, who had come back into my
life in my late teens. And it was an amazing day.
And at the end of it, I was so impressed
with how this thirteen year old boy showed up and
(14:15):
seeing what kind of man it looked like he was
going to turn into that I got real. You know,
I was half blown snot to beat the band because
I was so moved, and then I got pissed, like,
well shit, I didn't get this growing up. And so
I had some guy friends in Durango, Colorado, where we
(14:37):
lived then, who told me about the Mankind Project's new
warrior training adventure. And I had resisted that for years,
and after that day with Mark and seeing how parts
of me inside really needed that kind of blessing and
that challenge from men, I went and did that week
(15:01):
and I've been in men's work ever since and just
fell in love with men, starting getting what kind of
man I am that in a lot of ways reminds me.
And now I'm looking at myself on the monitor, I
kind of look like this stir lemon Q. Now, how
worrying is that so that that's really how it unfolded.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And I'm just him been.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
I mean, it really has been the passion ever since.
It's interesting because Mike's whole are opposite of Jeffson so
many ways, but we ended up in the same place
at the same time because my very strong, very mad,
and he was masculine in the way that men get stereotyped.
(15:46):
There's no access to their emotions, no ability to connect
ut an emotional and there are various reasons for that.
But I would or as as a teenager, as a
young man, and as I was very put off by
my father, I was intimidated by I couldn't connect with
him no matter how hard I and so like Jeff
(16:09):
but for different reasons, I bought into all of that.
I mean I grew up watching television shows where the
husband was a bumbling idiot. I mean we actually talked
about this at the big The husband is a bumbling
moron and the wife is very masculine and competent and
keeps things together and keeps the dumb husband's problems. So
(16:31):
I bought into all of that that the way to
be a successful man was to be more like I
got to the year two thousand and two, just about
to turn thirty five, I was fully bought into that
that model, of that dysfunctional model of what masculine, what
it means to be a man, of that dysfunctional model
(16:51):
of masculine. And in the space of a month, I
lost my and I lost my long term and I yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
I.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Curled up on the floor between the bed and I said,
I don't.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Know what.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I surrendered in And a lot of things came out
that moment of surrender. There's a whole spiritual journey we
could do. But one of the things that came out
of that is that I realized that I had been
following all of the popular advice of what it means
to be in, which means that I was soft, I
was weak. I was I did not I was not resist,
(17:35):
I wasn't respected by it. I wasn't really I was
still a child in many ways. And without knowing any
of this, obviously, this this came to light after them,
and it was recognizing that by going down that with
my whole heart and my whole and all the all
(17:55):
the the ability and intellect that I had, or it
led me to a horrible that led to a search
which put me on the path that Jeff and I.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yes, that led you to the Undaunted Man. So you
guys work a lot with masculine and feminine energy dynamics,
and it's so tricky, and I'll give you an example
is that, So I felt that part of me connecting
with my feminine side was a big part of my
(18:33):
journey because of that what was, you know, was called
toxic masculinity and I'm always trying to use the right
words here, and I realized that like that, that feeling
is masculine, being vulnerable as masculine.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So I guess helped me maybe maybe share.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
An example of how these energies play out coaching, maybe relationships,
are parenting, because you've talked about how that masculine and
femin and then presidents both contribute to healthy fathering and leadership.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
So yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Well, the way I've come to practice it and deepen
my own personal way of working with both of those
energies is that my masculine energy. So I'll put it
in terms of fatherhood. Being the father of a son,
(19:29):
A lot of what I needed to be able to
teach him. I felt when he was growing up. Definitely
included being able to connect with emotion, being able to
connect with the emotional heart, but also that that created
(19:51):
a level of empathy and to be able to make
it in the world as a human being, not just
as a male, but as a human being, you've got
to be able to do at least a couple things.
You have to be able to communicate well and connect
with other people. That requires a degree a lot high
(20:14):
degree of empathy and compassion has always been a huge
part of my natural personality, even with a little boy.
Very empathetic, very compassionate with people. So you've got to
be able to feel people to help navigate how you're
(20:35):
going to interact with them in any context. The other
thing is you've got to be reliable. You have to
be dependable. You've got to be able to get shit done.
And that ability, in either a male or a female
is at the center of masculine energy the way I
(20:57):
look at it. So to be able to really get
good at both of those, I had to hold my
son accountable, and neither my wife nor I were unduly softies.
But I think like when Mark and I were growing up,
the dads were often the disciplinarians and the moms who
(21:19):
were the nurturers. Well, there were times where it would
be flipped with my wife and I because she was
also an elementary school teacher. So when you're a first
grade teacher, you've got to have some good, strong masculine
and family and energy because those kids are going to
run all over you. So she taught me a lot
(21:42):
about bringing more of that male masculine flavor, I guess,
for lack of a better word, back then. So I
taught my son how to be respectful to women, to girls,
how to be respectful period. That to me is that
(22:03):
crosses both energies both contribute to that. And then when
he would be hurting and when he was getting old
enough to want to date, and you know, how do
I be with girls? I really I taught them a
lot of the more traditional masculine values of respecting girls, consent,
(22:31):
things like that. I also, to be honest, I taught
him a lot, and he had this natural ability to
be fair, but I think I helped him refine how
to listen from both his masculine logic masculine clarity, and
how to also listen with empathy and empathize and learn
(22:54):
when you need to bring masculine energy to a situation
and when feminine energy it's going to be the better
energy for the task at hand.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
So actually that's what I would say.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Yeah, I guess I would say that it's a it's
a popular notion profoundly that weaknesses is not related to
a biological sex or agreed masculin I mean, weak men
(23:30):
are not feminine men and more effeminate men are not.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
But there are there are very.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Profound differences between the masculine and feminine, and each individual
person has there the fundamental nature that they are in
tune with naturally and instinctively. Overwhelming the overwhelming majority of
people that are are in tune with masculine energy are
(23:59):
male biological males, and the overwhelming people amount number of
people that are in tune with feminine energy are female.
There is a spectrum. It exists on us and just
because are it primarily in tune Like for me, I'm
primarily in tune with masks one of like, I would
(24:21):
be ineffective in all of my jobs if I could
didn't have the ability to access my feminine when that's
what was I mean A lot in my work it
is necessary for me, you know, to set the tone,
to set the direction, to hold people accountable, to hold
(24:44):
to have, and sometimes I have to help people along.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
I have to the The.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Attempted erasure of the differences between masculine feminine energy is
also real, familiar, familiar. You are polarity no polarity theory
that in my opinion, and I think mostly in Jeff's
opinion as well, polarity theory kind of encamps the challenges
(25:12):
in the dating market these days because as women have
been encouraged to be more map and men have been
encouraged to be more feminine, that we become more likely
the attractions. I mean, if you see you hear about
the younger generation bring less sex than today than in the.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
UH.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
They're dating less than at any point ever in Western
recorded Western and there's a there's a lack of interest.
Populations in the West and in the and the affluent
countries are shrinking. We're on the verge of population collapse
because people are more interested in kind of doing their
own There's a lot of reasons for that that go
(25:58):
beyond polarity theory. But one of the problem men aren't
really that attractive to women and vice versa. I mean,
I know I'm not a to mask.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I'm not.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
I mean, there's nothing wrong with men that are, and
there's nothing wrong with this is not a commentary on homosexuality,
or I'm attracted to fem My partner is attracted to mask.
Nothing enrages my partner than when I'm too much in
my face because I become un Nothing enrages me more
(26:32):
than when she's in her masculine because I don't want
to be in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Interesting, interesting polarity. I'm gonna have to check that out.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
I recommend, I strongly recommend, a deep dive on polarity theory.
It starts to answer a lot of the questions that
gets get raised by really brilliant, intelligent people like Glover's
book No More, Mister Guy, The Solution to Everything and
No More Miss You're Nice Guy is polari.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
It solves all interesting interesting, Well good, I've added that
to my list. But here's what I want to ask
you this So, Mark, I think it was you or
you either coined or popularized popularize a compelling phase phrase,
feel the.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Fear and do it anyway?
Speaker 1 (27:22):
How do you build that capacity for courageous action in
your clients, especially in the face of that initial resistance
that we all, you know, reach out for help for
Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I like that quote.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Well, I will tell you the short the short way
to describe it is I do my best to emulate
Jeff's high school, which is you hold people an you
hold high expectation, and you you hold those expectations and
that accountability.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That's I mean.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I I give very clear advice, you know, very clear
steps according to the goals that they have. But the
way of being that very clear accountability, very clear reliability.
They know that they can count on me. I I
operate as their rock sometimes depending on the man. But
(28:23):
I am that guy that's there that's holding the standard.
But I don't do it by belittling, or by criticizing,
or by being, you know, kind of an old school
football coach stereotype kind of thing, where you're you know,
calling people names. I expect that's I don't know how
(28:43):
to say it. Better to say it than that. I
had a baseball coach when I was a kid missed
and he I was a terrible baseball player. I was
this just not something I was ever And he asked
me to do something. One time, he asked me to
attempt a bunt on a third strike, which is an
at it. And so I said, why did you? I
was so upset. I was crying. I was like, I
(29:05):
don't know, eight or nine years old. I was crying.
He goes, I said, why did you tell me to
do that?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I thought you could.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
And that was the most crushing thing he could have
said to me, and also the best thing he could
have me because it motivated me so much, because he
had faith. He had the faith that I could do it,
and the fact that I failed to do it wasn't
he so so he held me capable and he said
(29:42):
it's all right next time. That's the whole process in
a nutshell. But to be able to hold that space
the key. And there's a lot of people like I told.
I told him yesterday that a friend of ours actually
do that. Was talking about starting his own journey the coach,
(30:05):
I said, a monkey can learn. Coach, the techniques are
not that difficult. It's who you are. You are and
what you bring, how you where you, how you're able
to person without an new.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
One other thing Mark left out that is so crucial
to answering your question. Everything he said is on. And
the other thing is if you let fear run you,
then you are literally a slave your entire life because
(30:51):
we all have fear. It isn't about being literally fear less.
If we didn't have the capacity for fear, probably the
population when it's in now a lot longer ago. But
the way to forge an incredibly strong human, but particularly
(31:14):
a strong man in the best sense of that word,
is you have got to do hard things. A man
who is not being challenged will be leaked.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with that.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
That makes yeah, yeah, Well, and there's community, it is
it seems central to you, guys, and how does your
you know, why is the group experience so powerful for
the menu coach? And why do you why is why
is community so important to you? Well?
Speaker 4 (31:49):
Speaking for me, community and this undoubtedly comes out partially
out of growing up very isolated and you know, very
excluded a lot because of ways I was different from
the rest of the boys I grew up with. But
(32:11):
the thing is why I think community is so powerful,
why the New Warrior Training Adventure changed my life forever.
Most of us aren't, at least I'll speak for my
generation if you're a dude, you're supposed to have all
the answers. If you don't, then bullshit people to believe
(32:34):
that you do, and try and figure them out. But
don't let the many know you're trying to figure it out.
And I have believed for years that one of the
reasons why the male suicide rate is so significantly higher
than the female suicide rate is because we are not
wired to be lone rangers. We are wired for connection.
(32:58):
We are wired to look people in the eye and
to love and to touch and to fuck and all
those things anyone in isolation, and this was true for
me for years. We're listening to the hall and looking
in the hall of mirrors in between our ears. And
the value of a men's circle or group and a
(33:23):
men's community, and similarly with different reasons for a women's community,
because I'm a big fan of women's groups for women
is if you don't have other people to talk with
and be heard by and to hear that all share
a common cause of wanting to be the best version
(33:47):
of themselves that they can be, then the human ego
will lie through its teeth twenty four to seven. So
the reflection on top for the support having your brothers
have here back when your life is literally disintegrating around you.
(34:11):
I don't know that I can still be alive if
I didn't have that when I really needed it.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Oh true, Mark, I know community is important to you.
I need your thoughts on that as well. Thank you, Jeff.
That was so powerful and I think all of us
have been there, which is why we're here in this
micro community.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Absolutely so. We are the average of the five people
that we time with. That is a it's a truism
meant and what could possibly be more valuable than a
community of people that are committed to becoming the very
versions of themselves that they can be according to the visions.
(34:56):
If you want to be successful in business, go hang
out with business people. If you want to be success
in relationships, go hang out with people that are actively
working to be successful ships.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
That's what our group. We have men that have been
in our group. Yeah, that that.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
That pre date the undaunted man becoming undaunted man, because
the value of the community, Uh, if the value is
hanging around with people that are committed to becoming and
we have groups that you know and tend to naturally congregate.
Groups tend to coalesce around around themes. Over the years,
(35:36):
we have groups that have coalesced around more spiritual themes,
groups that have coalesced around career themes, groups that have
coalesced around ship themes. And they start there and men
grow and they create the relationship or the career or
the spiritual path that they want, and then sometimes they'll
(35:57):
move into another group that's focused in a new area.
Sometimes that group by itself will evolve if they've solved
all their relationship problems, then they evolve more into a
career theme or into a or more spiritual spiritually oriented theme.
But it's that power of people that are on a
(36:19):
similar specifically the trajectory that you want to be on,
because because we are going to either rise to the
level of the five people we spend the most time with,
or we're going to fall to the level of the
five people we spend the most time with. And in
(36:39):
hunted groups.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Love it, love it, love it. Jeff, I see you
nod in your head.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I didn't want to deny you of an opportunity to
jump on that.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Good yeah, good, good good good Okay, go yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
I don't disagree with anything, Mark Sen, It just made me.
Think of that another old expression arising time lifts some boats.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yes, and.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
We're fathering together. Then we are trying to just do
it all on their own.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Here here we need each other in my world.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
A quote that resonates is the opposite of addiction is
in sobriety, it's connection and that you know, those are
words that I absolutely live by. Yeah, it's Jonathan Harry
said it and his famous Ted talk. Everything I know
about addiction is wrong. Just to give where give credit
where credit is due, and so so Jeff and Mark.
(37:37):
If someone is interested in exploring your programs or just
want to connect, now, guys, we're going to put everything
in the show notes below, but I want them to
say it here at least the primary place that you
want people to go if they.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Want to learn more about you and the Undaunted Man.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
Sure, the Endauntedman dot com is a great home, Mace
and have some beautiful if we say so ourselves of
laying out what we're about, what our philosophical stand is,
and everything that we're making available. And also for those
that are younger than us that hang out on the
(38:13):
social media a lot, are.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
You Nope, we don't eymore.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
And I'll put the link down below.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
I'll put the link down below so you don't have
to worry about spelling that out. And So, what is
one message I like each of you to send to
someone listening right now who feels stuck or hus intant
to step in their power.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Let's let's let's wrap this up.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
It's one piece of advice you want to share with
my listeners.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
Have the courage to being you and dedicate your life
to being you because no one's going to do it
for you, and no one else can replace you, and.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
No one's coming to say to you, coming to see
fuck no, And I would just say yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
And I would yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
And they are guys, only good people on this podcast.
Jeff and Mark, thank you so much for being here.
Can't wait to do it again. Please check out the
show notes and the description for all the social media,
the website and everything else that you need to access
these guys, Mark and Jeff, thank you so much for
(39:36):
being here.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Thanks for having us. All right, You're welcome, You're welcome.
All right, everybody.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
That wraps up another episode of sex Afflictions and Porn Addictions.
Remember life is too short to suck. Embrace your power
of choice, seed the right wolf inside you, and get
the support you need.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
You do not have to do it alone. Thanks for watching.
Hey, what's up everybody? You are listening to Craig Parra.
I'm the founder of the Mindful Habit Systems and this
is Sects, Afflictions and Porn Addictions, a podcast to help
you create and sustain healthy sexuality and a great life.
I'm so excited today. I've got two very very special
(00:23):
guests that i want to talk about. Jeff Lawton and
Mark Johnson, both from The Undaunted Man, and we're going
to talk about that. These are two brothers that I
met at the Big Tenth Summit in Loveland, Colorado. I've
shared with you how powerful that was to have all
of these men and women who support men under one umbrella.
(00:43):
It was a really powerful connecting experience, and it got
me to meet these two beautiful men. I'd like to
introduce them now. Hey, Mark, Hey Jeff, welcome, Thank you
good to be here. All right, so let's do this.
Instead of me butchering a by all that you've given
me to read, we've been doing this enough. I would
(01:03):
like you Mark and then Jeff, introduce yourselves to my audience.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Let them know who you are, what you do, and
why you do it well.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
In I've been coaching people for close to thirty years
now in various fields. I started out with that risk
kids back in the not Lake, started working with co
ed adults in the early two things, and for the
nine years now along with we've been working exclusively in
(01:34):
men's work and coaching men and running awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Thank you Mark, Jeff. Tell me about yourself, brother.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Well, I have been a relationship coach for thirty years
and I've been a men's coach and men's room leaner
for twenty five now. And I got into men's who
work in my early things because I really didn't have
men around me growing up.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And so to your question of why I do this and.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
What I love about it, is when I learned how
amazing men could be. I just found I had a
passion for supporting men in being the best version of
themselves that they could be, and have been doing that
for a long time pretty much as a lone ranger.
And then Mark popped into one of my men's groups,
(02:29):
and we found out that we were twin sons from
different mothers, and he thought that we could really create
a pretty powerful community and company out of what we
were doing with men, and so here we are and
the rest is history. And I'm also a husband, a
(02:49):
father of an amazing man, and grandfather of a handful
of man to be.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Oh grandfather, that's good, a little crazy. Well, Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, guys,
So glad that you're going to be here. And the
way I was thinking is I'm going to toss these
questions up in the year and maybe Mark you answer one,
Jeff answer one. And I think some of the questions
are going to require both of you to really get.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
To the meat of it.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So I want to first talk about how did the
Undaunted Man as a name come about?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
And what does being undaunted mean to you?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
On Daunted became our name because we are ask the
spicy questions right out of the gate, Craig, because because
masculinity has been being demonized in the West since the sixties,
then that's the nineteen sixties. I guess I have to
say that now, Gosh, I'm old, and so many of
(03:52):
the men that I've been working with since well, jeez,
even as far back as nineteen nineteen, and that Jeff
and I worked together with are actually afraid to be masculine.
They come into our groups and they're of their masculinity
because they've been told that to be masculine is to
be fundamental broken or fundamentally wrong, and that the way
(04:18):
to be a good man is to be as much
like a woman as humanly. And so the cure, what
we found, is to help men to become fearless, which
is what undaunted means to be, and that is to
be fearlessly themselves, not less according to our definition of
what masculinity is, not fearless according to any vision that
(04:41):
we have for them or for men ineral, but fearless
according to their inner voice, their inner leading, in their
masculine nature. However that expresses itself.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
I love that answer because so many of us have
been taught to hide, to suppress, to and we're supposed
to like something, supposed to you know, be a certain way.
And finding that your version of masculine authenticity, authenticity, I
think is really important. Jeff, what do you want to
add to that, if anything?
Speaker 4 (05:15):
Well, and there's another definition of undaunted that says courageously resolute.
You know, in the climate that Mark was just talking about,
you got to have balls to really, I mean above
and beyond the obvious. He really it takes courage and
(05:38):
resolved to be a voice for the beauty and value
of masculine energy. And we're also hugely advocates for the
reality that every human being has masculine energy, every human
being has feminine energy, and we need both of them.
(06:01):
They are equally powerful, equally necessary, and we're very resolved
around that mission. That Mark, you spoke, and that takes courage,
and it takes a real clarity of knowing who you
are and what you stand for. So that really, Mark
(06:22):
and I have done a lot of work individually and
together to help ourselves keep walking that talk and that journey,
and it only seemed natural to really have that be
our name.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Mmmmm, beautiful, beautiful Mark. Did you want to add something
to that?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, I want to because Jeff and I have been
doing this together for a long time. We both think
of different things at different moments in the conference. One
of the experience, well, I want to say all, but
I'm sure there's an exception. Nearly all of our men
have expensed them shut down, like the expression of their
(07:03):
masculine energy is actively discouraged, actively criticized from their youngest
days in school. I mean, these days it happens, but
it absolutely it happens in kindergarten, happens in first grade.
When you know boys are being that behavior is criticized,
and it's masculine behavior is actively encouraged and rewarded. And
(07:30):
the double standard that exists there needs to be corrected.
And it's not about placing one above the other sex.
It's treating everyone as equals and encouraging everyone to be
the fullest and best version of themselves according to their
(07:50):
and their natural inks. And people that are born large
portions of masculine energy is most deserve to be able
to express that fully without being punished or criticized, or
suppressed or rejected.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
And let's talk about some of that programming.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
How are we raised to suppress that masculine energy?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
And I'll put that out there to both of you.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Guys, go in Mark, uh, well, I'm sure you can
go back to your own experience in grade school, in
junior high and boys act out. When boys are aggressive,
that gets shut down. When boys are assertive, that gets
There's been long. I'm old enough to remember the conversations
(08:36):
in the seventies and about how we needed to encourage
girls to be more assertive and boys were told to
sit down and shut up to allow the girls to
That message, you know, back in the seventies, eight and
eighties was relatively primitive. Nowadays, it starts so young that
(08:57):
when boys act out, they are told to sit down,
be quiet, be good, be at the same time that
girls are actively encouraged to be to they're not told
to sit down and be quiet so that the boys
get a chance. The kids today are not treated equally,
and boys especially are treated.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Well.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
They're expected to act like little girls.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Jeff, your experience or your thoughts, thank you.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Mark Well, I'm probably a bit of an outlier in
that I growing up, I had a single mom, so
I was raised by my mom and her mom, and
I had one sister, no brothers. Every dog we ever
(09:47):
had growing up was female. So I had no fucking
idea what it meant to me a guy, you know.
And I remember growing up on John Lee movies and
Bonanza Tosha. How old I am really admiring God, even
(10:08):
Roy Rogers, you know, admiring cinematic or TV versions of men.
And I didn't have any any real home modeling of
what that was going to look like. What would be
you know, quote unquote being a good man or being
(10:28):
a quote unquote bad man. And I also, my mom
had the most terrific taste in men known on earth
at that time, in my opinion, And so even the
men that might have been around our household from time
to time tended to be really really weak men, addicts
(10:52):
and the like. I didn't really my first examples of
Matt sculine energy tended to be bullies, boys that were bullies,
and so I actually grew up feeling like, I think
(11:15):
men are kind of fucked up, and that was just
my direct microcosm experience. And then when I got into
high school and all my teachers were female. I didn't
have a male teacher until I was in sixth grade.
And when I think back on him, good guy, and
(11:38):
he was married to a woman that was very masculine dominant,
so he was kind of like a nineteen sixties version
of Robert Glover's No More Mister Knife's Guy. So I
didn't really I didn't really have anything to go by
until high school. And I had a counselor in high school.
(12:04):
Mister Lemcule was his name, and he was the football coach.
And you know, you look at me right now, do
I just scream jock.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
No.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
But he was such a masculine guy that had a
heart as big as he had powerful, strong, masculine energy,
and he.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Knew when it was time.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
I mean, you did not fuck with him, but when
I would go into his office and be, you know,
a tearful mess because I'd get beaten up on the schoolyard,
he didn't pamper me with feminine energy. He gave me
his heart, but he also taught me how to be
a boy and a young man, so that that was
(12:55):
really the beginning of it. And the rest came into
place when I was in my early face. So I'm
kind of a late bloomer to that answer.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
And what happened in your early forties, Jess.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
I had my wife and I have one child together,
a boy, and when he was about thirteen and a half,
he one of my best friends offered to work with
him to get him ready for an initiation ceremony that
(13:33):
was going to revolve around the material in Robert Morris's book,
King Warrior, Magician Lover. And he spent a year working
with Mark that's my son's name, and getting him ready
for an all day initiation experience that happened in southwestern Colorado,
(13:53):
and he got to pick the men that were there,
which included my dad, who had come back into my
life in my late teens. And it was an amazing day.
And at the end of it, I was so impressed
with how this thirteen year old boy showed up and
(14:15):
seeing what kind of man it looked like he was
going to turn into that I got real. You know,
I was half blown snot to beat the band because
I was so moved, and then I got pissed, like,
well shit, I didn't get this growing up. And so
I had some guy friends in Durango, Colorado, where we
(14:37):
lived then, who told me about the Mankind Project's new
warrior training adventure. And I had resisted that for years,
and after that day with Mark and seeing how parts
of me inside really needed that kind of blessing and
that challenge from men, I went and did that week
(15:01):
and I've been in men's work ever since and just
fell in love with men, starting getting what kind of
man I am that in a lot of ways reminds me.
And now I'm looking at myself on the monitor, I
kind of look like this stir lemon Q. Now, how
worrying is that so that that's really how it unfolded.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And I'm just him been.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
I mean, it really has been the passion ever since.
It's interesting because Mike's whole are opposite of Jeffson so
many ways, but we ended up in the same place
at the same time because my very strong, very mad,
and he was masculine in the way that men get stereotyped.
(15:46):
There's no access to their emotions, no ability to connect
ut an emotional and there are various reasons for that.
But I would or as as a teenager, as a
young man, and as I was very put off by
my father, I was intimidated by I couldn't connect with
him no matter how hard I and so like Jeff
(16:09):
but for different reasons, I bought into all of that.
I mean I grew up watching television shows where the
husband was a bumbling idiot. I mean we actually talked
about this at the big The husband is a bumbling
moron and the wife is very masculine and competent and
keeps things together and keeps the dumb husband's problems. So
(16:31):
I bought into all of that that the way to
be a successful man was to be more like I
got to the year two thousand and two, just about
to turn thirty five, I was fully bought into that
that model, of that dysfunctional model of what masculine, what
it means to be a man, of that dysfunctional model
(16:51):
of masculine. And in the space of a month, I
lost my and I lost my long term and I yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
I.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Curled up on the floor between the bed and I said,
I don't.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Know what.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I surrendered in And a lot of things came out
that moment of surrender. There's a whole spiritual journey we
could do. But one of the things that came out
of that is that I realized that I had been
following all of the popular advice of what it means
to be in, which means that I was soft, I
was weak. I was I did not I was not resist,
(17:35):
I wasn't respected by it. I wasn't really I was
still a child in many ways. And without knowing any
of this, obviously, this this came to light after them,
and it was recognizing that by going down that with
my whole heart and my whole and all the all
(17:55):
the the ability and intellect that I had, or it
led me to a horrible that led to a search
which put me on the path that Jeff and I.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yes, that led you to the Undaunted Man. So you
guys work a lot with masculine and feminine energy dynamics,
and it's so tricky, and I'll give you an example
is that, So I felt that part of me connecting
with my feminine side was a big part of my
(18:33):
journey because of that what was, you know, was called
toxic masculinity and I'm always trying to use the right
words here, and I realized that like that, that feeling
is masculine, being vulnerable as masculine.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So I guess helped me maybe maybe share.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
An example of how these energies play out coaching, maybe relationships,
are parenting, because you've talked about how that masculine and
femin and then presidents both contribute to healthy fathering and leadership.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
So yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Well, the way I've come to practice it and deepen
my own personal way of working with both of those
energies is that my masculine energy. So I'll put it
in terms of fatherhood. Being the father of a son,
(19:29):
A lot of what I needed to be able to
teach him. I felt when he was growing up. Definitely
included being able to connect with emotion, being able to
connect with the emotional heart, but also that that created
(19:51):
a level of empathy and to be able to make
it in the world as a human being, not just
as a male, but as a human being, you've got
to be able to do at least a couple things.
You have to be able to communicate well and connect
with other people. That requires a degree a lot high
(20:14):
degree of empathy and compassion has always been a huge
part of my natural personality, even with a little boy.
Very empathetic, very compassionate with people. So you've got to
be able to feel people to help navigate how you're
(20:35):
going to interact with them in any context. The other
thing is you've got to be reliable. You have to
be dependable. You've got to be able to get shit done.
And that ability, in either a male or a female
is at the center of masculine energy the way I
(20:57):
look at it. So to be able to really get
good at both of those, I had to hold my
son accountable, and neither my wife nor I were unduly softies.
But I think like when Mark and I were growing up,
the dads were often the disciplinarians and the moms who
(21:19):
were the nurturers. Well, there were times where it would
be flipped with my wife and I because she was
also an elementary school teacher. So when you're a first
grade teacher, you've got to have some good, strong masculine
and family and energy because those kids are going to
run all over you. So she taught me a lot
(21:42):
about bringing more of that male masculine flavor, I guess,
for lack of a better word, back then. So I
taught my son how to be respectful to women, to girls,
how to be respectful period. That to me is that
(22:03):
crosses both energies both contribute to that. And then when
he would be hurting and when he was getting old
enough to want to date, and you know, how do
I be with girls? I really I taught them a
lot of the more traditional masculine values of respecting girls, consent,
(22:31):
things like that. I also, to be honest, I taught
him a lot, and he had this natural ability to
be fair, but I think I helped him refine how
to listen from both his masculine logic masculine clarity, and
how to also listen with empathy and empathize and learn
(22:54):
when you need to bring masculine energy to a situation
and when feminine energy it's going to be the better
energy for the task at hand.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
So actually that's what I would say.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Yeah, I guess I would say that it's a it's
a popular notion profoundly that weaknesses is not related to
a biological sex or agreed masculin I mean, weak men
(23:30):
are not feminine men and more effeminate men are not.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
But there are there are very.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Profound differences between the masculine and feminine, and each individual
person has there the fundamental nature that they are in
tune with naturally and instinctively. Overwhelming the overwhelming majority of
people that are are in tune with masculine energy are
(23:59):
male biological males, and the overwhelming people amount number of
people that are in tune with feminine energy are female.
There is a spectrum. It exists on us and just
because are it primarily in tune Like for me, I'm
primarily in tune with masks one of like, I would
(24:21):
be ineffective in all of my jobs if I could
didn't have the ability to access my feminine when that's
what was I mean A lot in my work it
is necessary for me, you know, to set the tone,
to set the direction, to hold people accountable, to hold
(24:44):
to have, and sometimes I have to help people along.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
I have to the The.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Attempted erasure of the differences between masculine feminine energy is
also real, familiar, familiar. You are polarity no polarity theory
that in my opinion, and I think mostly in Jeff's
opinion as well, polarity theory kind of encamps the challenges
(25:12):
in the dating market these days because as women have
been encouraged to be more map and men have been
encouraged to be more feminine, that we become more likely
the attractions. I mean, if you see you hear about
the younger generation bring less sex than today than in the.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
UH.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
They're dating less than at any point ever in Western
recorded Western and there's a there's a lack of interest.
Populations in the West and in the and the affluent
countries are shrinking. We're on the verge of population collapse
because people are more interested in kind of doing their
own There's a lot of reasons for that that go
(25:58):
beyond polarity theory. But one of the problem men aren't
really that attractive to women and vice versa. I mean,
I know I'm not a to mask.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I'm not.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
I mean, there's nothing wrong with men that are, and
there's nothing wrong with this is not a commentary on homosexuality,
or I'm attracted to fem My partner is attracted to mask.
Nothing enrages my partner than when I'm too much in
my face because I become un Nothing enrages me more
(26:32):
than when she's in her masculine because I don't want
to be in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Interesting, interesting polarity. I'm gonna have to check that out.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
I recommend, I strongly recommend, a deep dive on polarity theory.
It starts to answer a lot of the questions that
gets get raised by really brilliant, intelligent people like Glover's
book No More, Mister Guy, The Solution to Everything and
No More Miss You're Nice Guy is polari.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
It solves all interesting interesting, Well good, I've added that
to my list. But here's what I want to ask
you this So, Mark, I think it was you or
you either coined or popularized popularize a compelling phase phrase,
feel the.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Fear and do it anyway?
Speaker 1 (27:22):
How do you build that capacity for courageous action in
your clients, especially in the face of that initial resistance
that we all, you know, reach out for help for
Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I like that quote.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Well, I will tell you the short the short way
to describe it is I do my best to emulate
Jeff's high school, which is you hold people an you
hold high expectation, and you you hold those expectations and
that accountability.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That's I mean.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I I give very clear advice, you know, very clear
steps according to the goals that they have. But the
way of being that very clear accountability, very clear reliability.
They know that they can count on me. I I
operate as their rock sometimes depending on the man. But
(28:23):
I am that guy that's there that's holding the standard.
But I don't do it by belittling, or by criticizing,
or by being, you know, kind of an old school
football coach stereotype kind of thing, where you're you know,
calling people names. I expect that's I don't know how
(28:43):
to say it. Better to say it than that. I
had a baseball coach when I was a kid missed
and he I was a terrible baseball player. I was
this just not something I was ever And he asked
me to do something. One time, he asked me to
attempt a bunt on a third strike, which is an
at it. And so I said, why did you? I
was so upset. I was crying. I was like, I
(29:05):
don't know, eight or nine years old. I was crying.
He goes, I said, why did you tell me to
do that?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I thought you could.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
And that was the most crushing thing he could have
said to me, and also the best thing he could
have me because it motivated me so much, because he
had faith. He had the faith that I could do it,
and the fact that I failed to do it wasn't
he so so he held me capable and he said
(29:42):
it's all right next time. That's the whole process in
a nutshell. But to be able to hold that space
the key. And there's a lot of people like I told.
I told him yesterday that a friend of ours actually
do that. Was talking about starting his own journey the coach,
(30:05):
I said, a monkey can learn. Coach, the techniques are
not that difficult. It's who you are. You are and
what you bring, how you where you, how you're able
to person without an new.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
One other thing Mark left out that is so crucial
to answering your question. Everything he said is on. And
the other thing is if you let fear run you,
then you are literally a slave your entire life because
(30:51):
we all have fear. It isn't about being literally fear less.
If we didn't have the capacity for fear, probably the
population when it's in now a lot longer ago. But
the way to forge an incredibly strong human, but particularly
(31:14):
a strong man in the best sense of that word,
is you have got to do hard things. A man
who is not being challenged will be leaked.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with that.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
That makes yeah, yeah, Well, and there's community, it is
it seems central to you, guys, and how does your
you know, why is the group experience so powerful for
the menu coach? And why do you why is why
is community so important to you? Well?
Speaker 4 (31:49):
Speaking for me, community and this undoubtedly comes out partially
out of growing up very isolated and you know, very
excluded a lot because of ways I was different from
the rest of the boys I grew up with. But
(32:11):
the thing is why I think community is so powerful,
why the New Warrior Training Adventure changed my life forever.
Most of us aren't, at least I'll speak for my
generation if you're a dude, you're supposed to have all
the answers. If you don't, then bullshit people to believe
(32:34):
that you do, and try and figure them out. But
don't let the many know you're trying to figure it out.
And I have believed for years that one of the
reasons why the male suicide rate is so significantly higher
than the female suicide rate is because we are not
wired to be lone rangers. We are wired for connection.
(32:58):
We are wired to look people in the eye and
to love and to touch and to fuck and all
those things anyone in isolation, and this was true for
me for years. We're listening to the hall and looking
in the hall of mirrors in between our ears. And
the value of a men's circle or group and a
(33:23):
men's community, and similarly with different reasons for a women's community,
because I'm a big fan of women's groups for women
is if you don't have other people to talk with
and be heard by and to hear that all share
a common cause of wanting to be the best version
(33:47):
of themselves that they can be, then the human ego
will lie through its teeth twenty four to seven. So
the reflection on top for the support having your brothers
have here back when your life is literally disintegrating around you.
(34:11):
I don't know that I can still be alive if
I didn't have that when I really needed it.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Oh true, Mark, I know community is important to you.
I need your thoughts on that as well. Thank you, Jeff.
That was so powerful and I think all of us
have been there, which is why we're here in this
micro community.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Absolutely so. We are the average of the five people
that we time with. That is a it's a truism
meant and what could possibly be more valuable than a
community of people that are committed to becoming the very
versions of themselves that they can be according to the visions.
(34:56):
If you want to be successful in business, go hang
out with business people. If you want to be success
in relationships, go hang out with people that are actively
working to be successful ships.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
That's what our group. We have men that have been
in our group. Yeah, that that.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
That pre date the undaunted man becoming undaunted man, because
the value of the community, Uh, if the value is
hanging around with people that are committed to becoming and
we have groups that you know and tend to naturally congregate.
Groups tend to coalesce around around themes. Over the years,
(35:36):
we have groups that have coalesced around more spiritual themes,
groups that have coalesced around career themes, groups that have
coalesced around ship themes. And they start there and men
grow and they create the relationship or the career or
the spiritual path that they want, and then sometimes they'll
(35:57):
move into another group that's focused in a new area.
Sometimes that group by itself will evolve if they've solved
all their relationship problems, then they evolve more into a
career theme or into a or more spiritual spiritually oriented theme.
But it's that power of people that are on a
(36:19):
similar specifically the trajectory that you want to be on,
because because we are going to either rise to the
level of the five people we spend the most time with,
or we're going to fall to the level of the
five people we spend the most time with. And in
(36:39):
hunted groups.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Love it, love it, love it. Jeff, I see you
nod in your head.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I didn't want to deny you of an opportunity to
jump on that.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Good yeah, good, good good good Okay, go yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
I don't disagree with anything, Mark Sen, It just made me.
Think of that another old expression arising time lifts some boats.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yes, and.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
We're fathering together. Then we are trying to just do
it all on their own.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Here here we need each other in my world.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
A quote that resonates is the opposite of addiction is
in sobriety, it's connection and that you know, those are
words that I absolutely live by. Yeah, it's Jonathan Harry
said it and his famous Ted talk. Everything I know
about addiction is wrong. Just to give where give credit
where credit is due, and so so Jeff and Mark.
(37:37):
If someone is interested in exploring your programs or just
want to connect, now, guys, we're going to put everything
in the show notes below, but I want them to
say it here at least the primary place that you
want people to go if they.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Want to learn more about you and the Undaunted Man.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
Sure, the Endauntedman dot com is a great home, Mace
and have some beautiful if we say so ourselves of
laying out what we're about, what our philosophical stand is,
and everything that we're making available. And also for those
that are younger than us that hang out on the
(38:13):
social media a lot, are.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
You Nope, we don't eymore.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
And I'll put the link down below.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
I'll put the link down below so you don't have
to worry about spelling that out. And So, what is
one message I like each of you to send to
someone listening right now who feels stuck or hus intant
to step in their power.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Let's let's let's wrap this up.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
It's one piece of advice you want to share with
my listeners.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
Have the courage to being you and dedicate your life
to being you because no one's going to do it
for you, and no one else can replace you, and.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
No one's coming to say to you, coming to see
fuck no, And I would just say yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
And I would yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
And they are guys, only good people on this podcast.
Jeff and Mark, thank you so much for being here.
Can't wait to do it again. Please check out the
show notes and the description for all the social media,
the website and everything else that you need to access
these guys, Mark and Jeff, thank you so much for
(39:36):
being here.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Thanks for having us. All right, You're welcome, You're welcome.
All right, everybody.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
That wraps up another episode of sex Afflictions and Porn Addictions.
Remember life is too short to suck. Embrace your power
of choice, seed the right wolf inside you, and get
the support you need.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
You do not have to do it alone. Thanks for watching.
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