January 23, 2025 • 26 mins
We stroll through the ascension, decline, and revival of the shopping mall to see if these once-mighty retail giants can regain their former glory.
Get show notes for this episode and check out past episodes of the Speaking Human podcast by visiting speakinghuman.com.
#Podcast #SpeakingHuman #VO #Branding #Marketing #Advertising #Business #SmallBiz #Brands #Ads #simplify #popculture #art #Brands #Malls #ShoppingCenters #History #shopping
Get show notes for this episode and check out past episodes of the Speaking Human podcast by visiting speakinghuman.com.
#Podcast #SpeakingHuman #VO #Branding #Marketing #Advertising #Business #SmallBiz #Brands #Ads #simplify #popculture #art #Brands #Malls #ShoppingCenters #History #shopping
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Speeding Human.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Today, on Speaking Human, we stroll through the ascension, decline,
and revival of the shopping mall to see if these
once mighty retail giants can regain their former glory.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Speeding Human.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Welcome to Speaking Human, where we simplify the world of
marketing for humans. I'm Shad Conley and with me is
my co host Patrick Jebber. Welcome to twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Patrick, Yeah, we are currently living in the future, as
we like to say, every five years, like twenty twenty,
I think we said the same thing. They're like, we're
living in the future, Shad, and then the pandemic hit
and we're like, oh.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, so hopefully this, you know, five year is a
little better than that one.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, we didn't know what was coming yet at the
beginning of twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
For sure, you never know what's coming.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So today we're talking about malls. If you haven't guessed
already because you know of the title and you clicking
on it. But we're gonna start off, Shad, I have
a couple questions for you. Think of it as like
a little tiny tidbit of trivia for the listeners. I'm
hoping maybe if you could guess you might guess, right,
I don't know. We'll see. Yeah, I'm gonna give you
(01:30):
multiple choice, by the way.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Oh okay, yeah, my question. All right. I like multiple choice.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
It's a little easier with multiple choice.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I think, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Let's go with it, all right. If you were to
take a wild guess, what year do you think was
the peak year for mals? Now you have three to
choose from. Is it nineteen eighty, is it nineteen eighty eight,
or is it nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I'm gonna say it's either eighty eight or ninety four.
I'm on the fence there, so I'll go with ninety four.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
All right, it is nineteen eighty.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Oh okay.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I threw you off a little bit with the choices
because I think eighty eight and ninety four are believable. Well,
let me ask you this, okay, So take into account
nineteen eighty do you think there were twenty five hundred malls,
six thousand malls or eighty two hundred malls.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I'm gonna say twenty five hundred.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
That's a good guess. I thought that that was pretty interesting.
Nineteen eighty I would have thought it would have been
a little bit later, like towards the nineties. And if
you compare that twenty five hundred as like peek how
many malls were existed at that time compared to today
where there's roughly seven hundred in twenty twenty four, you
know they definitely have declined.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Ah, Yeah, no doubt. Anybody who's you know, looked around
and seen their mall clothes or the empty kind of
occupancy of malls knows that they're not where they once were,
especially anybody who lived through the heyday malls.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, malls were the thing to do back in the day, right, No.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Doubt we kind of lived through some of the mall here.
You probably weren't mauling at a super conscious level in
nineteen eighty at the peak right time. But what are
your memories or associations of malls? What do you think
about when I say mall.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
When I was a kid, even up until like your
teenage years, that was the place you would go, like
on the weekend or even weekdays, you would ask your
parents to like, can you drop me off at the mall?
Because you would hang out with your friends at the mall.
The stores where you would shop were traditionally at the mall.
Like music stores like Camelot was big back in the day,
(03:35):
which is like an fye e yah today. I guess
Spencer's Gifts, you know, was real popular when we were kids,
mainly because they had really weird gifts and things that
were inappropriate that you know, as a young teenage kid,
you thought was hilarious, hilarious. So yeah, I mean, you know,
that was the place, the place to go, the place
(03:55):
to hang out.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, very similar. I probably most associate with being like
thirteen or fourteen, get dropped off and wander around for
a few hours, and it was like a thing to do.
But that's kind of where I associate most of my
mall going time of my life. I guess a little
different though, how I think of malls now, which is
(04:17):
very much like these giant spaces kind of withering away,
no real reason for a person of my age living
in the Amazon Age to go there, or that's kind
of how I did think of them. I will say
I went there recently, like over the holiday season, and
my local mall was bumping. I felt like I was
(04:38):
back in the year nineteen ninety four. You know, it
was like being in a time machine there were holiday decorations,
people everywhere. We actually went into an fye and we
had to wait in line like twenty minutes. We were
getting a gift for somebody, and the line was so
long to check out. I couldn't believe it. So it
was a weird experience for me. Away what I actually
(05:01):
thought the mall was right now.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, it definitely felt like the last couple of times
I've gone to the mall, especially during the holiday season,
it felt like the old days, and honestly like just
seeing people in that sort of communal space. And maybe
this is partly because of the pandemic, but you know,
seeing people come back and be in that space together.
I think it's a legitimate psychological thing that people just
(05:25):
want to be together with other people, and maybe that
shopping experience, yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
There is something that feels good about it. I even
like had this almost like warm nostalgic feeling going in
and like walking through all these people, and then I
had to wait in line, and I was like, why
did I come in here?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah? A little part of you dies on the inside
when you're like, oh, yeah, that's this is the reason
why I don't shop in person.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, this is why I don't like this. Yeah, So
that's a good bit of background. So before we start
to dive in and really really dig deep on malls
and what's going on with them, where they're going, where
they've been, I'll let me provide a little history on
the journey of American malls over the past seventy five years. So,
the first true enclosed mall opened in Adina, Minnesota, nineteen
(06:14):
fifty six. It was the brainchild of Victor Gruin, an
Austrian Jewish architect who immigrated to the US in nineteen
thirty eight. He conceived the mall as a communal gathering
place to emulate the feel of town squares in Europe.
The concept, with its climate controlled environment, which was key
(06:35):
in a time where most people still did not have
air conditioned homes, was a hit, and malls began popping
up all over the nation. The popularity of malls increased
as more Americans pushed away from cities and into the suburbs.
As you mentioned, Patrick, by nineteen eighty there were over
two thousand malls across the US, with anchor stores like Sears, J. C. Penny,
(06:55):
and Macy's. The mall was the place to shop, hang,
out and see the latest fashion trends, especially for teens.
Mall culture in the eighties and nineties became a thing.
Pop stars like Tiffany even roaded to fame by performing
for teens in malls, but every peak is inevitably followed
by a decline. In the two thousand's, online shopping exploded,
(07:21):
Amazon and retail chains struggled. Between twenty ten and twenty fifteen,
about one thousand malls closed and many more were left
with vacant storefronts. But in the post pandemic era, malls
have seen a surprising resurgence. USA Today reported in twenty
twenty three that more stores opened in twenty twenty two
(07:43):
than closed, the first time that has happened since twenty sixteen.
Sales and occupancy were also up, and Simon Malls recently
reported Black Friday traffic was up five point nine percent
year over year in twenty twenty four. So the big
questions we wanted to discuss patrick why were malls such
a phenomenon and can they get back to their former glory?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Deep deep questions.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I mean, they're the big ones. They're the questions on
everybody's mind every day when they wake up in the morning, malls,
what's going to happen to them?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, well, like to the point of malls being a
phenomenon for one, in nineteen fifty six. You know, you
think about that time period in like air conditioning, you
know what I mean. Yeah, having these spaces that were
climate controlled, that was a big thing.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So I do believe that had a huge part in
their success back then. But really like the whole experience,
that's what made it a phenomenon. They had a movie theater,
they had dining experiences, they had shopping. It was an
experience to go to the mall. It just so happens
that we look back at that and we go, oh, yeah, well,
(08:56):
I mean it's a shopping center, you know, it's a
place where you go and purchase things. But for the
people then they you know, take the kids out and
make a night of it or not with their kids.
You know who knows that I think is really what
created the phenomenon itself.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yeah, I totally agree with that, and I think, I know,
I kind of say this probably about a lot of
things a lot of times, but malls were in many
ways the internet before we had the internet. I mean,
think about it, you had shopping, entertainment, social interactions. You're
getting information, news, gossip. I mean, memes in a way
(09:30):
are created there. You know, you see something funny or
like something happens that you keep talking about. I mean,
we didn't have places to get these things easily at
home at the touch of a button. In the peak
mall years, malls were where we got everything. You know,
you could get it all together. It was like this
collective gathering spot to experience all these things.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, it's a good point, and that's why the internet's
so successful. I'm sure you know what I mean. You
could do anything you want in this that's confined on
your phone. But you know, like there's all kinds of
psychological studies about like, you know, being near other people
in a physical space, you know what I mean versus
like being online and what that does. And when we
(10:14):
are deprived of that, I think there's a little bit
of us that crave it, and so I think, you know,
that is what's bringing back. I wouldn't say they're former glory.
I don't think malls will be what they were necessarily.
I think everything evolves, but I do think malls can
still fill a need for that in person shopping experience
that's really lacking in the online universe, you know what
(10:36):
I mean.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yeah, definitely. I mean I agree with you one hundred percent.
I don't think malls are ever going back to being
the center of the shopping universe like they wear, but
you're right, they can become something else, and I think
they've started to evolve into that. I think the first
thing is that mall kind of uncoolness or out of
trend factor has sort of worn off. You know how
we go through these cycles with everything where it's like, Okay,
(11:00):
you're on the upswing and then you peak, you're actual
your like super popularity, and then you're coming down and
that's where you become uncool.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
It's like I just want to stay away from you.
I'm just allergic to even talking about you. Like everything
about you is uncool. I'm a generation removed from when
you were cool. Once we usually get past that, there's
like a resurgence. Vinyl is a great example of this.
Oh yeah, you know, it was like it was the
(11:29):
the thing for a while. Then we had these other
things come along and this thing is no longer cool,
and then you know, once you kind of get past
that cycle or a generation removed. Then it's like, oh,
but there is actually a place for this, and people
embrace it as something you know different. It kind of
settles into that new role.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Do you think that, uh, mallwalkers will be the ones
that bring it back to be a cool status again?
Remember mawalkers.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
I don't no, I do remember mallwalkers. I don't think
they're the ones are going to bring it back, but
I think mallwalker or they're probably still there, right, they're
still walking the malls or did COVID get rid of
the mall walkers?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure
that they probably still exist. It's an enclosed space climate
control wintertime, right, yeah, so you know, and in the
summertime it's air condition And that's.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Even a good point.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
The history of malls and how they were developed in
this kind of like relationship to European like town squares
kind of made me like take a look at malls
in a different way as like an enclosed little village. Yeah,
you know, and if you think about them that way,
it's it all kind of makes sense. You know, this
is a place to gather go shopping, get some food,
(12:39):
people are walking, you know, just go there to walk
and do circles. But you know, getting back up, what
can you know malls be today? What can their roles be?
I think they can be a source of nostalgia, you know,
they could be as we mentioned experiences, and they could
be as we also talked about alternatives or compliments to
what we're kind of seeing now a fracturing and potentially
(13:00):
crumbling online shopping infrastructure, you know, where I think people
are starting to look for a more tangible physical alternative
to that.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, for sure, I don't necessarily need to be next
to the person who's shopping in the same space as me.
That's not necessarily my goal. But it is really important
when you're shopping sometimes to physically touch those things that
you're gonna buy. And I you know, like I think
about clothes or shoes, you know, like those are the biggest, right,
(13:33):
So it fills that need very well for one, you know,
but it also gives that to you in a small
footprint relatively speaking, you know what I mean. Like a mall,
while it might be giant, you don't have to drive
all over town or you don't have to go to
the next whatever city to get a different store. The
(13:54):
mall does have a lot of that all self contained
within that space, so you have a lot of options.
Think that that plays a big part in that.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. So what do you
think if we're gonna try you know, you're going out there,
you're trying to market malls to today's world. What's what's
the pitch?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
All right, I got a couple here, you know, get
it now? Get it now is a great one because
you think about like in the immediacy of today, right,
like Amazon, you can get things same day or next day,
but it's still not right now. Like if you want
something right this minute, hop in the car, you go
to the mall, you get it right now. If I
(14:32):
want that pair of jeans, I'm gonna get it. I'm
gonna walk out with that pair of jeans, right, I'm
gonna I could. I could wear my tennis shoes out
of the store if I want to. If you're buying
it online, you're waiting no matter how you look at it.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yeah, And I think that works even better now because
I think online shipping is getting slower.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Not fast, Yeah, which we saw during the holidays. You
and I talked about this off there a couple of times,
so yeah, it definitely works better. The other one I
would say is smell it, touch it, taste it. While
these sound unusually dirty, I think this concept is sound right.
You know, it's like the tangible nature of products that
you buy and you needing to fuel them or taste
(15:12):
them or smell them. Maybe. You know, if you're going
into a find a fragrance. You can't do that online,
and no matter how much they tell you and describe it,
it's not the same as being there and experiencing it.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Well, I think you just kind of threw on another one.
You didn't even know it. It's not the same as
being there.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, true, Yeah, that's a good one. I like that that.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
There's probably a better way to word that, but there's
something to that idea. So a couple I have, you know,
along the same lines. I think we're working kind of
in the same realm here because it's pretty clear what
you're going for and obviously you want to hit you know,
the younger generation with this idea of experiences and what
you're going to get. So one of them was a
multitude of experiences all in one place. I think this
(16:00):
is kind of tapping into you know, like you're talking
about experiential retail ways people can get their hands on
products even if they're not buying them there. I know
one of the stores, like our family always likes to
go into is like the Love Sex Store because we
can like sit on the things and like feel them
and like you know, check out the different kind of
products they have to offer. I think food is a
(16:22):
big one. I think beyond your traditional mall food, but
go to like dining, you know, food hall experiences or
like you know, more kind of like exotic food options
something like that. Entertainment, I'm sure you could do a
lot of virtual different video games, concerts, you know, things
to just really draw people in and kind of engage them.
(16:43):
I don't think the stores mattern necessarily that much. Those
can kind of rotate. I think if you get the
people there, they'll kind of go to the stores or
at least explore them a little bit. So, yeah, the
first one a multitude of experiences all in one place.
Second one, as I kind of mentioned, a mini city
for you to explore. Maybe it's not a mini city
because that sounds like tiny. Maybe there's a better way
(17:04):
to kind of word that. Yeah, but you know, something
along those lines where it's like, hey, there's like a
whole bunch of stuff here.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Maybe it's just hey, there's just a whole bunch of
stuff here.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
And it's gotta start with hey.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
You have to start it with hey.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
No, I like that.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
And then I was also trying to kind of think
of some taglines. Then I was like, what can we
play off of with mal Like, what kind of phrase?
So I was trying to think of some things that
are like all you know, these are terrible, but I'll
throw them out there anyways. So I've got instead of
all for it, I've got mall for it.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Oh okay.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Or I've got instead of all right, mall.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Right, okay, all right.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
What do you think about any one of those?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Those?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Could those work in some capacity? Mall for it?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, I like, I'm all for it, but have it
mall I'm all for it? Yeah, I like that. I
don't know you could work on that, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
The other thought I had was do we need to
get away from the word mall? Is it tainted? Do
we need to call do we need to start calling
it something different to.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Me, it's not a great word. You know, we talk
about the way that words can make you feel a
certain thing. Mall is easy to say, but it doesn't
feel like something where you want to do it.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
No, it's kind of like short and just compact and
almost too simple and doesn't have any elegance or anything
like that to it.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
You know, Like I think of a word like something
I shared with you even earlier today, I would love
to call instead of a mall a glissade.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
It feels good and if anybody knows, the glissade means
nothing about shopping or you know, instead of shopping, you're glissading.
That's what I mean by like, the word a glissade
feels like a shopping experience, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, And it has that kind of elegance and roll
off the top, you know where you're like. I mean,
maybe it's too fancy, but it's not something as like
compact and utilitarian as mall, which the word mall also
in Spanish means bad.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
So oh yeah, darth maul.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
To go back, though, the word mall comes from a
sixteenth century Italian alley game that resembled croquet. It was
called paula Mausio or Paul Mall in English. The alley
on which the game was played came to be known
as a mall, so it's like an alley in this game.
(19:38):
That's where the origination comes from.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
And you know, they do like sometimes, you know, those
segments of the mall do feel like alleys, but that
doesn't feel like something you'd want your shopping center to
be named after.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, like come to this back alley.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, where Paul Blart, the mall cop, arrests people.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
It's only a matter of time before Paul Blart came up.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I mean, you know he was a mall cop. It
was in the title of the movie. You have to
at least mention it. Let me just say a couple
of things. While we're thinking about this and we're on
the subject malls in movies, there's actually a lot of references.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
What else you got.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
There's a great scene in Weird Science when they're at
the mall and they pour the slushy on the guys,
you know, when they're just getting cool, like they're in
those cool clothes, you know, from when they turned the
Computer Girl into reality. I'm sort of oversimplifying the whole
(20:39):
primise of the movie, but people who know, you know,
and they pour the from the upper level of the mall.
They pour the slushy and like get it, like right
on top of Michael Anthony Hall and stuff.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
And young Robert Downey Junior.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I think, yeah, yeah, Robert Downey Junior is the one
that you know, he's the jerk in the movie. And
Seo Man, I think there's a mall scene there, you know,
like those are the ones that I remember from my youth.
I think there's probably millions if you and if you
want to go into like The Dawn of the Dead, right,
oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
I mean that's a huge mall movie. The first two
that come to my mind, and there are probably a ton,
I mean, this could be a whole MoMA episode. First
two that come to my mind are Mall Rats. It's
right there in the title. The Kevin Smith movie from
the nineties mid nineties, which you know, took place almost
entirely in the mall. And then I think of Fast Times.
(21:31):
A Ridgemont High also had I think several scenes that
were set in the mall, like people worked at the
mall and stuff like that. So that was a big,
like early eighties mall movie.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Would we have to title that movies in marketing episode
which is Mama? Would you have to call it Malma?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Could we?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah? Yeah, Okay, that's worth it right there, that's worth it.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Could be a good episode.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
There's a lot of malls, so anyway, you know, getting
off topic a little bit there, but this is this
is it, you know, this is what we're talking about.
There were movies filmed in malls because it was such
a central piece of our you know, societal norm you know,
like this is the place that people went to shop
and experience consumerism, capitalism at its finest.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, and this is probably you know, another thing you
would want is like, let's present this in film and
on TV. Let's start getting people to film and show
what the new world the malls is like. You know,
how people are going there for these fun experiences or
like just to hang out in these different areas, and
how the mall is different than it used to be.
Kind of get that out, man. They need like a
pr campaign a little bit, right.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, making them seem like you said cool again. You
know one piece that I learned while we were doing
some research here for this episode. Did you know that
there's a name for what they call the hypnotic effect
that malls have on you. That feeling they say of
pleasant disorientation is what's known as the Gruin transfer, a
(23:03):
phenomenon name for the original mall's creator. And it's this
idea that like you almost can't escape, like they don't
make it easy for you to like exit the mall.
Your defenses go down, and you end up sort of
roaming a little bit and then shopping, and then you
spend money like impulse buys. That's sort of the idea.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Oh, that's really interesting. That's a good name. I like
when there's like a syndrome or something that's named after
a person. Ah, so that's a good one. You know
what I experience in malls dry eyes. They dry out
my eyes every time.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I think, I know why. It's exactly what you were
saying before. It's the mall. Was the Internet. The same
thing happens to me in malls. That happens to me
when I do any kind of shopping online and I'm
actually actively shopping, there's like a fatigue that sets in.
It's like emotionally draining. Right, the same thing happens I
(24:01):
think in malls, Like if you spend any amount of
time in a mall and you're looking around at different shops,
don't you feel a little drained.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
I mean it's definitely over stimulating. Yeah, and here I
just thought it was the mall air.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Well, that's a little bit of it. I think too.
They think they're pumping in air, Yeah, along with the
music or musac. I don't know what they're using.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
All sorts of stuff, Well what on malls? Probably the most
I've talked about malls in a good uh forever.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So we'll leave you with this
little takeaway. I think the key takeaway in this episode
is this, while there may not be as many shopping
malls today as there once were, the concept itself isn't
dead and it won't outright die because the mall is
a communal shopping experience. It gives people the chance to smell, touch, taste,
(24:54):
like I was saying, the products that they desire. While
they might be a monument and a blatant acknowledgment that
consumerism is a real disease that might be the very
reason why they live forever. Like most diseases, viruses, or pathogens,
the mall will mutate and evolve even if it doesn't spread,
(25:14):
it will find a way to keep filling that sickening
human desire to consume. Good takeaway for what it is,
you know, malls. But we hope you got a lot
out of this episode.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, hope you enjoyed strolling back down the mallways with us.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Oh the mallways. You were waiting the whole episode for
that one.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Ah some You know you got these things saved up.
You gotta get them out, because when are you gonna
get another chance?
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Next time we talk about malls on an episode?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yeah, twenty thirty five.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It's a resurgence. It worked, all right. Well, that's it
for today's episode. You can find current and past episodes
of the podcast on Speaking Human dot com.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
We'll be back in two weeks with another episode of
Speaking Human. Catch it then, Humans.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Speaking Human?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Does that sound too negative?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Should I have?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Like?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
I was like, I think this is a positive, but
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
I mean, I know we're creative marketing professionals, and I'm like,
sickening human desire to consume.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Much like a disease that will kill you. The mall
will live forever.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Oh yeah, oh yeah,
Speeding Human.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Today, on Speaking Human, we stroll through the ascension, decline,
and revival of the shopping mall to see if these
once mighty retail giants can regain their former glory.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Speeding Human.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Welcome to Speaking Human, where we simplify the world of
marketing for humans. I'm Shad Conley and with me is
my co host Patrick Jebber. Welcome to twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Patrick, Yeah, we are currently living in the future, as
we like to say, every five years, like twenty twenty,
I think we said the same thing. They're like, we're
living in the future, Shad, and then the pandemic hit
and we're like, oh.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, so hopefully this, you know, five year is a
little better than that one.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, we didn't know what was coming yet at the
beginning of twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
For sure, you never know what's coming.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So today we're talking about malls. If you haven't guessed
already because you know of the title and you clicking
on it. But we're gonna start off, Shad, I have
a couple questions for you. Think of it as like
a little tiny tidbit of trivia for the listeners. I'm
hoping maybe if you could guess you might guess, right,
I don't know. We'll see. Yeah, I'm gonna give you
(01:30):
multiple choice, by the way.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Oh okay, yeah, my question. All right. I like multiple choice.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
It's a little easier with multiple choice.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I think, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Let's go with it, all right. If you were to
take a wild guess, what year do you think was
the peak year for mals? Now you have three to
choose from. Is it nineteen eighty, is it nineteen eighty eight,
or is it nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I'm gonna say it's either eighty eight or ninety four.
I'm on the fence there, so I'll go with ninety four.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
All right, it is nineteen eighty.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Oh okay.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I threw you off a little bit with the choices
because I think eighty eight and ninety four are believable. Well,
let me ask you this, okay, So take into account
nineteen eighty do you think there were twenty five hundred malls,
six thousand malls or eighty two hundred malls.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I'm gonna say twenty five hundred.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
That's a good guess. I thought that that was pretty interesting.
Nineteen eighty I would have thought it would have been
a little bit later, like towards the nineties. And if
you compare that twenty five hundred as like peek how
many malls were existed at that time compared to today
where there's roughly seven hundred in twenty twenty four, you
know they definitely have declined.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Ah, Yeah, no doubt. Anybody who's you know, looked around
and seen their mall clothes or the empty kind of
occupancy of malls knows that they're not where they once were,
especially anybody who lived through the heyday malls.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, malls were the thing to do back in the day, right, No.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Doubt we kind of lived through some of the mall here.
You probably weren't mauling at a super conscious level in
nineteen eighty at the peak right time. But what are
your memories or associations of malls? What do you think
about when I say mall.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
When I was a kid, even up until like your
teenage years, that was the place you would go, like
on the weekend or even weekdays, you would ask your
parents to like, can you drop me off at the mall?
Because you would hang out with your friends at the mall.
The stores where you would shop were traditionally at the mall.
Like music stores like Camelot was big back in the day,
(03:35):
which is like an fye e yah today. I guess
Spencer's Gifts, you know, was real popular when we were kids,
mainly because they had really weird gifts and things that
were inappropriate that you know, as a young teenage kid,
you thought was hilarious, hilarious. So yeah, I mean, you know,
that was the place, the place to go, the place
(03:55):
to hang out.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, very similar. I probably most associate with being like
thirteen or fourteen, get dropped off and wander around for
a few hours, and it was like a thing to do.
But that's kind of where I associate most of my
mall going time of my life. I guess a little
different though, how I think of malls now, which is
(04:17):
very much like these giant spaces kind of withering away,
no real reason for a person of my age living
in the Amazon Age to go there, or that's kind
of how I did think of them. I will say
I went there recently, like over the holiday season, and
my local mall was bumping. I felt like I was
(04:38):
back in the year nineteen ninety four. You know, it
was like being in a time machine there were holiday decorations,
people everywhere. We actually went into an fye and we
had to wait in line like twenty minutes. We were
getting a gift for somebody, and the line was so
long to check out. I couldn't believe it. So it
was a weird experience for me. Away what I actually
(05:01):
thought the mall was right now.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, it definitely felt like the last couple of times
I've gone to the mall, especially during the holiday season,
it felt like the old days, and honestly like just
seeing people in that sort of communal space. And maybe
this is partly because of the pandemic, but you know,
seeing people come back and be in that space together.
I think it's a legitimate psychological thing that people just
(05:25):
want to be together with other people, and maybe that
shopping experience, yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
There is something that feels good about it. I even
like had this almost like warm nostalgic feeling going in
and like walking through all these people, and then I
had to wait in line, and I was like, why
did I come in here?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah? A little part of you dies on the inside
when you're like, oh, yeah, that's this is the reason
why I don't shop in person.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, this is why I don't like this. Yeah, So
that's a good bit of background. So before we start
to dive in and really really dig deep on malls
and what's going on with them, where they're going, where
they've been, I'll let me provide a little history on
the journey of American malls over the past seventy five years. So,
the first true enclosed mall opened in Adina, Minnesota, nineteen
(06:14):
fifty six. It was the brainchild of Victor Gruin, an
Austrian Jewish architect who immigrated to the US in nineteen
thirty eight. He conceived the mall as a communal gathering
place to emulate the feel of town squares in Europe.
The concept, with its climate controlled environment, which was key
(06:35):
in a time where most people still did not have
air conditioned homes, was a hit, and malls began popping
up all over the nation. The popularity of malls increased
as more Americans pushed away from cities and into the suburbs.
As you mentioned, Patrick, by nineteen eighty there were over
two thousand malls across the US, with anchor stores like Sears, J. C. Penny,
(06:55):
and Macy's. The mall was the place to shop, hang,
out and see the latest fashion trends, especially for teens.
Mall culture in the eighties and nineties became a thing.
Pop stars like Tiffany even roaded to fame by performing
for teens in malls, but every peak is inevitably followed
by a decline. In the two thousand's, online shopping exploded,
(07:21):
Amazon and retail chains struggled. Between twenty ten and twenty fifteen,
about one thousand malls closed and many more were left
with vacant storefronts. But in the post pandemic era, malls
have seen a surprising resurgence. USA Today reported in twenty
twenty three that more stores opened in twenty twenty two
(07:43):
than closed, the first time that has happened since twenty sixteen.
Sales and occupancy were also up, and Simon Malls recently
reported Black Friday traffic was up five point nine percent
year over year in twenty twenty four. So the big
questions we wanted to discuss patrick why were malls such
a phenomenon and can they get back to their former glory?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Deep deep questions.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I mean, they're the big ones. They're the questions on
everybody's mind every day when they wake up in the morning, malls,
what's going to happen to them?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, well, like to the point of malls being a
phenomenon for one, in nineteen fifty six. You know, you
think about that time period in like air conditioning, you
know what I mean. Yeah, having these spaces that were
climate controlled, that was a big thing.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So I do believe that had a huge part in
their success back then. But really like the whole experience,
that's what made it a phenomenon. They had a movie theater,
they had dining experiences, they had shopping. It was an
experience to go to the mall. It just so happens
that we look back at that and we go, oh, yeah, well,
(08:56):
I mean it's a shopping center, you know, it's a
place where you go and purchase things. But for the
people then they you know, take the kids out and
make a night of it or not with their kids.
You know who knows that I think is really what
created the phenomenon itself.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yeah, I totally agree with that, and I think, I know,
I kind of say this probably about a lot of
things a lot of times, but malls were in many
ways the internet before we had the internet. I mean,
think about it, you had shopping, entertainment, social interactions. You're
getting information, news, gossip. I mean, memes in a way
(09:30):
are created there. You know, you see something funny or
like something happens that you keep talking about. I mean,
we didn't have places to get these things easily at
home at the touch of a button. In the peak
mall years, malls were where we got everything. You know,
you could get it all together. It was like this
collective gathering spot to experience all these things.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, it's a good point, and that's why the internet's
so successful. I'm sure you know what I mean. You
could do anything you want in this that's confined on
your phone. But you know, like there's all kinds of
psychological studies about like, you know, being near other people
in a physical space, you know what I mean versus
like being online and what that does. And when we
(10:14):
are deprived of that, I think there's a little bit
of us that crave it, and so I think, you know,
that is what's bringing back. I wouldn't say they're former glory.
I don't think malls will be what they were necessarily.
I think everything evolves, but I do think malls can
still fill a need for that in person shopping experience
that's really lacking in the online universe, you know what
(10:36):
I mean.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yeah, definitely. I mean I agree with you one hundred percent.
I don't think malls are ever going back to being
the center of the shopping universe like they wear, but
you're right, they can become something else, and I think
they've started to evolve into that. I think the first
thing is that mall kind of uncoolness or out of
trend factor has sort of worn off. You know how
we go through these cycles with everything where it's like, Okay,
(11:00):
you're on the upswing and then you peak, you're actual
your like super popularity, and then you're coming down and
that's where you become uncool.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
It's like I just want to stay away from you.
I'm just allergic to even talking about you. Like everything
about you is uncool. I'm a generation removed from when
you were cool. Once we usually get past that, there's
like a resurgence. Vinyl is a great example of this.
Oh yeah, you know, it was like it was the
(11:29):
the thing for a while. Then we had these other
things come along and this thing is no longer cool,
and then you know, once you kind of get past
that cycle or a generation removed. Then it's like, oh,
but there is actually a place for this, and people
embrace it as something you know different. It kind of
settles into that new role.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Do you think that, uh, mallwalkers will be the ones
that bring it back to be a cool status again?
Remember mawalkers.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
I don't no, I do remember mallwalkers. I don't think
they're the ones are going to bring it back, but
I think mallwalker or they're probably still there, right, they're
still walking the malls or did COVID get rid of
the mall walkers?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure
that they probably still exist. It's an enclosed space climate
control wintertime, right, yeah, so you know, and in the
summertime it's air condition And that's.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Even a good point.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
The history of malls and how they were developed in
this kind of like relationship to European like town squares
kind of made me like take a look at malls
in a different way as like an enclosed little village. Yeah,
you know, and if you think about them that way,
it's it all kind of makes sense. You know, this
is a place to gather go shopping, get some food,
(12:39):
people are walking, you know, just go there to walk
and do circles. But you know, getting back up, what
can you know malls be today? What can their roles be?
I think they can be a source of nostalgia, you know,
they could be as we mentioned experiences, and they could
be as we also talked about alternatives or compliments to
what we're kind of seeing now a fracturing and potentially
(13:00):
crumbling online shopping infrastructure, you know, where I think people
are starting to look for a more tangible physical alternative
to that.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, for sure, I don't necessarily need to be next
to the person who's shopping in the same space as me.
That's not necessarily my goal. But it is really important
when you're shopping sometimes to physically touch those things that
you're gonna buy. And I you know, like I think
about clothes or shoes, you know, like those are the biggest, right,
(13:33):
So it fills that need very well for one, you know,
but it also gives that to you in a small
footprint relatively speaking, you know what I mean. Like a mall,
while it might be giant, you don't have to drive
all over town or you don't have to go to
the next whatever city to get a different store. The
(13:54):
mall does have a lot of that all self contained
within that space, so you have a lot of options.
Think that that plays a big part in that.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. So what do you
think if we're gonna try you know, you're going out there,
you're trying to market malls to today's world. What's what's
the pitch?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
All right, I got a couple here, you know, get
it now? Get it now is a great one because
you think about like in the immediacy of today, right,
like Amazon, you can get things same day or next day,
but it's still not right now. Like if you want
something right this minute, hop in the car, you go
to the mall, you get it right now. If I
(14:32):
want that pair of jeans, I'm gonna get it. I'm
gonna walk out with that pair of jeans, right, I'm
gonna I could. I could wear my tennis shoes out
of the store if I want to. If you're buying
it online, you're waiting no matter how you look at it.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yeah, And I think that works even better now because
I think online shipping is getting slower.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Not fast, Yeah, which we saw during the holidays. You
and I talked about this off there a couple of times,
so yeah, it definitely works better. The other one I
would say is smell it, touch it, taste it. While
these sound unusually dirty, I think this concept is sound right.
You know, it's like the tangible nature of products that
you buy and you needing to fuel them or taste
(15:12):
them or smell them. Maybe. You know, if you're going
into a find a fragrance. You can't do that online,
and no matter how much they tell you and describe it,
it's not the same as being there and experiencing it.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Well, I think you just kind of threw on another one.
You didn't even know it. It's not the same as
being there.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, true, Yeah, that's a good one. I like that that.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
There's probably a better way to word that, but there's
something to that idea. So a couple I have, you know,
along the same lines. I think we're working kind of
in the same realm here because it's pretty clear what
you're going for and obviously you want to hit you know,
the younger generation with this idea of experiences and what
you're going to get. So one of them was a
multitude of experiences all in one place. I think this
(16:00):
is kind of tapping into you know, like you're talking
about experiential retail ways people can get their hands on
products even if they're not buying them there. I know
one of the stores, like our family always likes to
go into is like the Love Sex Store because we
can like sit on the things and like feel them
and like you know, check out the different kind of
products they have to offer. I think food is a
(16:22):
big one. I think beyond your traditional mall food, but
go to like dining, you know, food hall experiences or
like you know, more kind of like exotic food options
something like that. Entertainment, I'm sure you could do a
lot of virtual different video games, concerts, you know, things
to just really draw people in and kind of engage them.
(16:43):
I don't think the stores mattern necessarily that much. Those
can kind of rotate. I think if you get the
people there, they'll kind of go to the stores or
at least explore them a little bit. So, yeah, the
first one a multitude of experiences all in one place.
Second one, as I kind of mentioned, a mini city
for you to explore. Maybe it's not a mini city
because that sounds like tiny. Maybe there's a better way
(17:04):
to kind of word that. Yeah, but you know, something
along those lines where it's like, hey, there's like a
whole bunch of stuff here.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Maybe it's just hey, there's just a whole bunch of
stuff here.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
And it's gotta start with hey.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
You have to start it with hey.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
No, I like that.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
And then I was also trying to kind of think
of some taglines. Then I was like, what can we
play off of with mal Like, what kind of phrase?
So I was trying to think of some things that
are like all you know, these are terrible, but I'll
throw them out there anyways. So I've got instead of
all for it, I've got mall for it.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Oh okay.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Or I've got instead of all right, mall.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Right, okay, all right.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
What do you think about any one of those?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Those?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Could those work in some capacity? Mall for it?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, I like, I'm all for it, but have it
mall I'm all for it? Yeah, I like that. I
don't know you could work on that, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
The other thought I had was do we need to
get away from the word mall? Is it tainted? Do
we need to call do we need to start calling
it something different to.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Me, it's not a great word. You know, we talk
about the way that words can make you feel a
certain thing. Mall is easy to say, but it doesn't
feel like something where you want to do it.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
No, it's kind of like short and just compact and
almost too simple and doesn't have any elegance or anything
like that to it.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
You know, Like I think of a word like something
I shared with you even earlier today, I would love
to call instead of a mall a glissade.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
It feels good and if anybody knows, the glissade means
nothing about shopping or you know, instead of shopping, you're glissading.
That's what I mean by like, the word a glissade
feels like a shopping experience, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, And it has that kind of elegance and roll
off the top, you know where you're like. I mean,
maybe it's too fancy, but it's not something as like
compact and utilitarian as mall, which the word mall also
in Spanish means bad.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
So oh yeah, darth maul.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
To go back, though, the word mall comes from a
sixteenth century Italian alley game that resembled croquet. It was
called paula Mausio or Paul Mall in English. The alley
on which the game was played came to be known
as a mall, so it's like an alley in this game.
(19:38):
That's where the origination comes from.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
And you know, they do like sometimes, you know, those
segments of the mall do feel like alleys, but that
doesn't feel like something you'd want your shopping center to
be named after.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, like come to this back alley.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, where Paul Blart, the mall cop, arrests people.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
It's only a matter of time before Paul Blart came up.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I mean, you know he was a mall cop. It
was in the title of the movie. You have to
at least mention it. Let me just say a couple
of things. While we're thinking about this and we're on
the subject malls in movies, there's actually a lot of references.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
What else you got.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
There's a great scene in Weird Science when they're at
the mall and they pour the slushy on the guys,
you know, when they're just getting cool, like they're in
those cool clothes, you know, from when they turned the
Computer Girl into reality. I'm sort of oversimplifying the whole
(20:39):
primise of the movie, but people who know, you know,
and they pour the from the upper level of the mall.
They pour the slushy and like get it, like right
on top of Michael Anthony Hall and stuff.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
And young Robert Downey Junior.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I think, yeah, yeah, Robert Downey Junior is the one
that you know, he's the jerk in the movie. And
Seo Man, I think there's a mall scene there, you know,
like those are the ones that I remember from my youth.
I think there's probably millions if you and if you
want to go into like The Dawn of the Dead, right,
oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
I mean that's a huge mall movie. The first two
that come to my mind, and there are probably a ton,
I mean, this could be a whole MoMA episode. First
two that come to my mind are Mall Rats. It's
right there in the title. The Kevin Smith movie from
the nineties mid nineties, which you know, took place almost
entirely in the mall. And then I think of Fast Times.
(21:31):
A Ridgemont High also had I think several scenes that
were set in the mall, like people worked at the
mall and stuff like that. So that was a big,
like early eighties mall movie.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Would we have to title that movies in marketing episode
which is Mama? Would you have to call it Malma?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Could we?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah? Yeah, Okay, that's worth it right there, that's worth it.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Could be a good episode.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
There's a lot of malls, so anyway, you know, getting
off topic a little bit there, but this is this
is it, you know, this is what we're talking about.
There were movies filmed in malls because it was such
a central piece of our you know, societal norm you know,
like this is the place that people went to shop
and experience consumerism, capitalism at its finest.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, and this is probably you know, another thing you
would want is like, let's present this in film and
on TV. Let's start getting people to film and show
what the new world the malls is like. You know,
how people are going there for these fun experiences or
like just to hang out in these different areas, and
how the mall is different than it used to be.
Kind of get that out, man. They need like a
pr campaign a little bit, right.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, making them seem like you said cool again. You
know one piece that I learned while we were doing
some research here for this episode. Did you know that
there's a name for what they call the hypnotic effect
that malls have on you. That feeling they say of
pleasant disorientation is what's known as the Gruin transfer, a
(23:03):
phenomenon name for the original mall's creator. And it's this
idea that like you almost can't escape, like they don't
make it easy for you to like exit the mall.
Your defenses go down, and you end up sort of
roaming a little bit and then shopping, and then you
spend money like impulse buys. That's sort of the idea.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Oh, that's really interesting. That's a good name. I like
when there's like a syndrome or something that's named after
a person. Ah, so that's a good one. You know
what I experience in malls dry eyes. They dry out
my eyes every time.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I think, I know why. It's exactly what you were
saying before. It's the mall. Was the Internet. The same
thing happens to me in malls. That happens to me
when I do any kind of shopping online and I'm
actually actively shopping, there's like a fatigue that sets in.
It's like emotionally draining. Right, the same thing happens I
(24:01):
think in malls, Like if you spend any amount of
time in a mall and you're looking around at different shops,
don't you feel a little drained.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
I mean it's definitely over stimulating. Yeah, and here I
just thought it was the mall air.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Well, that's a little bit of it. I think too.
They think they're pumping in air, Yeah, along with the
music or musac. I don't know what they're using.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
All sorts of stuff, Well what on malls? Probably the most
I've talked about malls in a good uh forever.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So we'll leave you with this
little takeaway. I think the key takeaway in this episode
is this, while there may not be as many shopping
malls today as there once were, the concept itself isn't
dead and it won't outright die because the mall is
a communal shopping experience. It gives people the chance to smell, touch, taste,
(24:54):
like I was saying, the products that they desire. While
they might be a monument and a blatant acknowledgment that
consumerism is a real disease that might be the very
reason why they live forever. Like most diseases, viruses, or pathogens,
the mall will mutate and evolve even if it doesn't spread,
(25:14):
it will find a way to keep filling that sickening
human desire to consume. Good takeaway for what it is,
you know, malls. But we hope you got a lot
out of this episode.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, hope you enjoyed strolling back down the mallways with us.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Oh the mallways. You were waiting the whole episode for
that one.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Ah some You know you got these things saved up.
You gotta get them out, because when are you gonna
get another chance?
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Next time we talk about malls on an episode?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yeah, twenty thirty five.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It's a resurgence. It worked, all right. Well, that's it
for today's episode. You can find current and past episodes
of the podcast on Speaking Human dot com.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
We'll be back in two weeks with another episode of
Speaking Human. Catch it then, Humans.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Speaking Human?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Does that sound too negative?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Should I have?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Like?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
I was like, I think this is a positive, but
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
I mean, I know we're creative marketing professionals, and I'm like,
sickening human desire to consume.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Much like a disease that will kill you. The mall
will live forever.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Oh yeah, oh yeah,
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