A World of Shadows | Interview with Pamela K. Kinney | Podcast - Stories of the Supernatural

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ms Marlene with Miami Ghost Chronicles, and I want to
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(00:20):
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(00:41):
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(01:05):
to my newsletter on substack just go to Mppelaser dot
com for a link. I want to thank you for
being part of my audience, and I think you are
all wonderful. So how's everybody doing good? I hope, Well
I'm doing good. Everything is good here. Yes, I'm prepping

(01:28):
for anybody that's wondering. Yes, I am prepping from the
Halloween Show. Never too early to do that. I've got
some a few ideas popping around on my head besides
the normal stuff that you know that you see out there.
So let's see. You know, it's going to require a
little bit of research, like all things. But yeah, because

(01:51):
you know, we comment that Halloween's changed so much. What
was it? A couple of guests ago we were talking
about because we were in that same age group, how
much fun Halloween used to be for like for families
and kids and for kids for kids. Yes, yeah, you
know you always had everyone's on all that weird story
about something bad happening, but overall it was like everybody

(02:11):
was walking around and you know, yeah you had the
little kids with you know, an adult, and then if
you were a teenager. I said, ah, man, I remember
all that, and in a way, sometimes I'm glad that
I had to expect my kids the same thing. You know,
I would take my kids around trick or treating. Eventually
I get to a certain age, like when they're sixteen
seventhing is like, nah ma, Mama, I'm gonna go to

(02:33):
with some AND's over. That's different. As a matter of fact,
some of them would stay with me and scare the
little kids that would come trigger treating at the house.
But how can I say it? It was just different.
It wasn't Joe, but it was fun. It was fun
all right on YouTube. Just people walking around and everybody
was courteous to one another, and you know, you saw neighbors,

(02:53):
but then you saw people from a few blocks over
and whatever, I believe it or not, never had a
bad experience like everybody, you know, anybody trying to like
you know, what they call stapatage, anybody trying to do
anything like uh, you know, throw you know, you know,
eggs or what they call mischief. Nothing like that. It
was great. It was fantastic. You know, by ten o'clock

(03:15):
maybe the latest that was it. It was like, okay,
turn off the porch light. It's over. You know, like
you know, because around not talk about the only ones
that would try to trick or treat at your house,
usually teenagers. But it was and now, you know, we
were commenting that everything now is so how can I
say everything for the Halloween thing is very It's kids

(03:40):
going to like a certain area and they all get together.
And I was like, the whole fun of the tricker
treat was that you were going down walking through the
neighborhood and for little kids is like the parents would
stay let's say, at the gate and they would have
to come to the door and you know, ask for
the trick or treat for the candy. That was, you know,

(04:02):
besides the fact of you know, looking at what you
got when you got home, as far as the candy
or quality of But uh yeah, I mean I want
to say, where I live at now, it's very rural.
There's nobody trigger treating out here. I mean unless say it.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
No.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
But the last time I was living in an area where,
like in a residential area, I ended up with leftover candy.
And I remember before, years before, it used to be
a be like, oh I ran out of candy. Okay,
I think I better turn off to lie because I
have nothing to give these kids when they show up.
Maybe I want to say, maybe in the last ten

(04:38):
years or less. It's little by littlest trickled down. That's it.
It's like, man, I've got a lot of leftover candy.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
I think that's sad. I think that that was but
I'm not going to talk about that. You know, the
Halloween shows, we're gonna, let's see, we're gonna maybe go
into some other aspects of Halloween and you know what
comes with it, et cetera, et cetera. So yes, I've
got that going on. And this time, you know, I
was looking at some of the stories that are going

(05:07):
on and I came across this which I had become
unaware of. Okay, this is and I'm sure a lot
of you have heard this gentleman's name is. He's doctor
Jeff Meldrum, all right, and I want to say that

(05:28):
he was just in about every Bigfoot Sasquatch series, you know,
interview and he passed away. He passed away, and basically
this was this the don Jeffrey Jeff Meldron was born
in New York May twenty fourth, nineteen fifty eight. He

(05:50):
died from brain cancer in September tenth, twenty twenty five,
and Pocatello, Idaho. During twenty twenty three, Meldrum suffered a
health crisis while he was an Bigfoot speaking engagement a
board an Alaskan cruise and was taken to a port
for medical emergency for medical emergency.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
He was an American anthropologist and academic. He was a
full professor of anatomy and anthropology in the Department of
Biological Sciences at Idaho State University. He was also adjunct
professor in the Department of Physical and Occupational Therapy and
the Department of Anthropology. He was an expert on foot
morphology and locomotion in primates. And then it gives you

(06:32):
know where he studied at. You know, he got his
BS and zoology, his MS at b y U, which
is Brigham Young University is PhD Stonybrook. Anyway, he's he
had the credentials. And I know that just about anybody
that had that ever ever gotten like a big foot
casting it would end up they would end up going

(06:52):
to him looking for feedback.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
He published numerous academic papers ranging from vertebrate evolutionary morphology,
the emergence of bipedal locomotion and modern humans, and the
plausibility behind the Sasquatch phenomena. Okay and.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
All right.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
In September he had that after a brief battle brain cancer.
He was not a It's only sixty seven years old.
And again he attracted media attention due to his interest
in Bigfoot, which he preferred terming Sasquatch. He believed that
the cryptod hominid Bigfoot exists, and his research on the

(07:32):
topic was criticized by some, especially for evers he made
endorsing some shaky evidence. Meldrum authored Sasquatch Legend meets Scigns
in two thousand and six, and he here he's you know,
as you can tell, because I have pictures for those
of you who are watching the video version of this,
you could tell he was a very young man. He's
doing his lecture tours. Yes, says here. He was interested

(07:54):
in sasquatch beginnings in the nineteen eighties, but he started
speaking on Bigfoot to public groups and nineteen ninety six
first that Bigfoot days, right, man, look at this low
white hairs, so he you know. Besides, I want to
say he was mentioned just about every Bigfoot series or

(08:16):
program or documentary.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
He was on the initial board of Advisor of the
International Cryptozoology Museum with Lauren Coleman. Lauren is another one
that's done a lot of work with cryptids. And yeah,
I was very sorry to hear this. And I guess
again because like most people, every time I would see
him on some show or something, he did look like

(08:42):
he was an old man. So he was an early
follower of Grover Krantz and copy Grover's one fossil primate
answer to the Bigfoot question. Meldrum's initial position was that
Gigan Gigantopithecus was the solution, but as Maldrum matured and
his thinking began to to agree with parenthropist theorist Gordon

(09:03):
and g. Strassenberg Junior became a foundation part of his
later writings. You know what I admire that. I admire
an academic who's willing to change his stance. He also
developed a new view of the ship. And YETI cast
seen below and the ICM places no data cast on exhibit.
That's interesting. Yeah, the yetti. Of course everybody knows this

(09:26):
from like, look at that, that's so interesting. Blah blah
blah blah. Okay, let me see his research can pass
questions of vertebrate evolutionary morphology.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
All right.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, he made two hundred and twenty six appearances on
reality television documentaries and on news magazine.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
He was as you could tell, he was just about everywhere,
and he was I think that what I think I
admired the most about him was that he went out there,
you know, when there was some some other academics wouldn't
touch bigfoot or Saskatch with a big ten foot poll.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
He did.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
He was, he he was, he was well academic wise,
he was well qualified, and he wasn't afraid to like,
look when they brought him casts and like they said,
he even changed his stance what he originally thought. And
this is believed or not. There's a lot of academics
that don't do that. They get married to their first

(10:28):
findings or whatever, and then they don't deviate from that,
even though sometimes you get evidence like hey, either you're
wrong or you need to like you're close but not
quite there. And he did. I really admire that. So
I'm sorry to hear that he's passed away. So let's see.
I think Lauren Coleman is still around, but let's see, Uh,
let's see who they're going to take all the Bigfoot

(10:49):
stuff now too, because remember the the these plaster casts
are the Bigfoot is. Besides actual for anything, this was
like one of the most important proof that people out
there in the whether they're doing Bigfoot hunts or just
people that have come across as you know, if you
have plaster to pour in there, have provided as proof

(11:12):
that Bigfoot exists. So now let's get onto the good part.
The good part is who is the guest today at
Stories of the Supernatural. She's been here before. Her name
is Pamela K. Kinney. She's an author and according to her,
she gave up long ago trying not to listen to
the voices in her head and has written award winning
best selling horror, fantasy, science fiction, poetry, nonfiction, ghostbooks, and

(11:35):
a crypti book. Ever since, three of her nonfiction ghostbooks
garnered Library Virginia nominations. Her horror story Bottle Spirits was
run up for the twenty thirteen WSFA Small Press Award,
and it's considered one of the seven best Genres short
Fiction for that year. One of her ghostbooks went to
second printing and second editions with news stories and photos added.

(11:57):
Pamela and her husband lived with one Crazy Black Cat.
Along with writing, Palela's acted on stage in film those
paranormal investigations for Paranormal World Seekers for ABA Productions, and
as a member of Horror Writers Association in Virginia Writers Club.
And I'm going to have a link to her website
on the credits of the show. Help me welcome her.

(12:17):
How are you doing today, Pamela, I can't hear you.
Oh wait, wait, wait, wait, No, that's me.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
That's me.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
That's me, that's me. I'm sorry, I'm a muting you.
I can go ahead, Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
I've actually got two fiction books coming out from you Do.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
I was going to ask you about it, from.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Well let Me Tell You Write and the ghost Books
and stuff and everything's set in Virginia. Actually had a
Ya Dark Fantasy come out this past year and earlier
the Paperback Rounders and it won the second place at
the Book Vessel Awards. So really yeah, I'm writing the
sequel at this point, but I'm also writing a second book.
But this is the one that.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Right I looked. I went on Amazon on and I
saw that I was like, oh, this is about to
come out.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Oh it's it's it's getting people buying it all pre
ordering it already, and my publisher was at a convention
this weekend and they came and bought the book in
the Naslat was there and she says, no, she's not,
so I couldn't. And that was a good thing because
I actually got a sinus infection, so I probably wouldn't
have been any good sitting at a convention. I will
have to go.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Oh no, let me see if I could. This is uh, yeah,
this is the the page on Amazon for that book
that you were talking about. Yeah, and it sounds really interesting.
It looks very interesting. Well, you've got another one also
in the pipeline.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, it's a set enrichment Apocalypse captains How the Vortex
Changed My Life. It was self published, but it went
to her. She's uh changed edited some. There's some small
edits and plus they change there's uh, these are a
lot of real places in here, and the independent bookstore
and Carrie Town had decide to retire and they still

(14:01):
to their friends and they changed the name of Early
so that name is changing here. But yeah, that is
an eyeball demon named Larry, So all right, but that's
that's the other one. That's urban fantasy with horror. But yeah,
but Nowhereland's taking off, so I'm kind of pleased. I
hope that that's a good sign.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
We'll see when is the other one that's stud to
come out later? Is it the same year?

Speaker 2 (14:26):
November?

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, Nowhereland will be October seventh, and then the other
one's coming out September thirtieth, the Vortex one. Oh.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
So they're right there, back to back right literally yeah,
all right, okay, Well, let me ask you the and
I know you did the Cryptid book, and that's why
Also I was I always look at what's going on,
you know, weird stuff, and that's when I came across
that news about Jeff Meldrum. And I'm sure you're I
don't know you've heard of him, but you know, he

(14:54):
was just about every show that they ever had a
Bigfoot about. You know, they brought him in as a expert,
which he was, you know, academically speaking, and uh and
that was one of the things I think he really
truly did believe that they were they did exist. Yeah,
and well there you go. Uh, let me ask you

(15:16):
with the when you did the Cryptied book, and I honestly, yes,
Bigfoot is like one of the most well known cryptids,
But did you ever come across something that you're like,
I never heard of this before.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
The only thing I did write in Cryptids, well, other
than the one that's coming out in two years, which
is Paranormal Appalachian Trail. So that's gonna be a really
big one at this point. I mean I really went
to town on that. On Everything is Werewolf, Dogman and
other shave shifts are stocking North America. That's the one
that's taking off. Believe it or not, same publisher of
these fiction books, and that was her first nonfiction and

(15:51):
it sells well. People seem to really get into that.
And I did put werewolves and dogmen, which is interesting
because they really look alike you think about looking at story,
and but I put them separate that werewolves anything, especially
if they called it a werewolf. There's even a modern
story here near here in a Raiko County that has

(16:12):
and it's been in my ghost book the where I
called it. I termed it the Werewolf in Horako and
the Henrick of Werewolf, and of course that's what they're
calling it. I mean, this place is to add more
stories all the time. This blah, so is it a
dog man? Whatever. I mean.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
It's interesting because this is the thing when you when
you listen to descriptions of people, I have seen dog men.
To me, it's like man that sounds like one of
a giant werewolf. To me, like one of these super
muscular werewolves.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
This has scientifically been proven, and I always believed it
because I had a cyber and husky, and I could
tell you right now that dog looks the same as
a as a timberwolf. I have a picture in the
book of a timberwolf at the local Sioux here and
a male and my dog looked just exactly like that.
And they and the dog hunt dog man hunters call it. Ah,

(17:03):
we call them dog men because they got short snouts.
Well I got news for them. The dog and the
timber will have had My dog and the timer will
have the same long snout, and a lot of dogs do.
But some dogs, because now they scientists have proven it,
they're based off two types of wolves in free history.
Some dogs really are wolves. They just got to us.

(17:24):
They had Some of them had a whether it's a
gene or something different in them that made them to
come to us more friendlier.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
I mean, even now they where animals become domesticated.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Well, they they're they're changing looks. I mean, it's like
they've suddenly got these big eyes. Even cats, it's like
being with us for thousands of years. So they came
for like I said to us, But they're wolves. They're
ones off of Asian and then another one I think,
try to remember where they said that one was, but
it's closer and related to where it is. And you
figure we probably changed the animals that we have. I mean,

(18:00):
then we got these little ones, and we got these short,
smudgy dogs, and that's probably the short snout they're thinking
more than a real snout, you know, which is timberwolves
and Siberian huskies have the same length of snout.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
You know what I read? Like, what was there a
couple of months ago? You know how they let go
of all these wolves up like in the Northwest and
all these states. Yeah, and they they've spread so well
that the ranchers and cattle people out there having fits
because they're they're the packing their their herds. They've done

(18:33):
so well.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Well, they're they're so used to people. At this point.
Let's be honest, I probably been taking care of and
actually if a hundred if ranchers were smart, if I
had a farm, I would have electric fence around my things.
Mountain lions or bears are going to go after your
animals anyway, So yeah, that's what I would do, an
electric fence to mature the predators from my animals. But right, hey,

(18:58):
I'm not I'm they're not gonna listen to me, so
but but yeah, I really.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
They've done like in other words, uh, put you know,
they reintroduce them, they've they've done very well. They're doing
super well out there.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
As they prove. And we need our predators and of
course part of the ecological protection. I mean, we need
animals and that are here for that reason, and we're
there and and sometimes it helps people you're well, you're
learning years later it does really help the environment.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
So of course, no, absolutely, they they they they eat,
they pray. Let's let's leave the cattle and the humans
out of the equation. But yeah, their natural prey keeps
everything in balance, whether it's rabbits or any of these
other things that they'll pray on. Dear, dear, Yeah, it
keeps the numbers so that nothing, you know, you don't

(19:48):
have too much of anything, and everybody does well, and
a lot of people people don't realize that even wolves
are other predators. Sometimes they'll bring down the old, the sick,
you know, the that can't make it, that can't make it,
and basically they're doing the health of the herd. If
it's a herd animal, they benefit from that, you know,

(20:11):
or you know and you look at it. We look
at it with you know, when when when you look
at these uh documentaries for animals like oh my god,
it's killing the deer, you know or something like that,
it's like, Okay, this animal is not doing it out
of evil intentions, just like us. Yeah, but sometimes they
go for the weakest link unfortunately. But that's that's just
the way nature is. There's no there's no malice behind it.

(20:34):
How's that? No, there's a eating But you know what,
let me ask you something. And one of the things,
you know, I'm sure I don't know if you've ever
heard of the rugaru, which is like the New Orleans or.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, it's it's actually in my book it's the Louisiana
Werewolf's Okay, it's another form, a different way. I know
that a lot of it's if it's somebody that was
one out hunting on All Saints Day and all these
different legends. I I know my books with me, I
believe or not. I left the books. I've been in
a place somewhere we store them. But if it has

(21:07):
All Saints Day, there's different things like that that they
get caught and they turn into a ruguloo. Were a wolf,
that's right, which was actually from France, so that's where
it all starts.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
But they always the impression of God though that rugaroos
were not as big or in other words, that were
more human like I don't know, that's the impression always
got about a rugaroo.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
Well there loop garoo, ruguloo the same thing. They kind
of yeah, but they a lot of it's either if
you want out hunting on on All Saints Day, all
sorts of different things that they believe in. And that's
how that that person can maybe change. Actually, the bite
probably is more of a movie thing, So if we

(21:47):
wanted to go by anywhere wolf stories, the bite probably
is more.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
Of a right movie rights.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
And the moon is the movies too, Except there is
years ago as a younger kid, I remember this book
I've got and there was the thing in it from
a medieval manuscript, and they did have to have the
full moon, but they needed the skin of a belt
made of a belt of a skin of a wolf, yes,
to wear, and they danced naked and it did these

(22:15):
quotes to become a change shape. So that was but
that was on a medieval manuscript that they found somewhere.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
So you know what movie I saw the other day
that had not seen for a long time. I know
if you ever saw this. This was a book, the
original law was written by Whitney Streiber. It's called Wolf.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, oh, that's like this.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
I hadn't seen it all of a sudden, you know,
when you're like.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Hey, look at it. It's almost like a dog man's story. Yeah,
and they even thought about dog men.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
You know when you haven't seen something for so long
that it's like you're watching it for the first time.
And I was looking at that, I was like, hmmm,
wow the movie.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
The movie was more like the Native American They called
them the skin walkers, which is that's a little bit
wrong with skinwalkers, right, But the Wolf and the way
I liked it. This was seventy eight when it came out,
and I was in college and I read it and
all that stuff, and I said, oh my gosh, I've
rather liked this. This is a different way to do
with the werewolf story. These are creatures that grew up

(23:12):
at the same time as us. They lived along, but
most time in the woods four hut and down hunting.
And then he went to the cities where the poor lived,
where they couldn't be seen, like New York City, which
is in the book, and they hunted these people down
to the cops were investigating these people that died and
all that stuff. And it was a really good story.
And now you think about dog Man, it's almost like that,

(23:35):
except they live in bunches together. And I thought, this
is a really good werewolf story. Doesn't have to show
him as a shape shifter. And now we got the
dog Man. So you almost think that Whitley Striver was
the way ahead of his time, right in now.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Way, Oh well he was. It's really weird because you
know he's I never did I read the book. I
can't remember, but it was like, you know, there there
because he makes him look like they're wolves, but they
were kind of like mystical in a way they're not.
And they're living in this old church. But basically what
they were living off of was they were like eating

(24:10):
all the homeless that nobody kept a track.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
They wouldn't get caught that was there. Smart. They were smart.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
They were intelligent, right, this is how they they they
because you know, it was like a very derelict part
of the city where the only thing that was hanging
out there were homeless or drug adadtics that you know,
people that if they went missing, nobody.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Would miss them maybe or would miss them.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
And of course they didn't leave U. But yeah, it
was like and I go, wow, that's a that's a
new that's a new And he actually brought that back out.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
I have had the paperback somewhere, but he has them
out on e books now, okay, so you can find
him at least I saw him on Kindles and I'm
pretty sure okay, okay books. But yeah, he finally brought
him back out. I mean, they did a sequel to
his Vampire one which was different too, part one, which
ended up being a movie with David Gosh I can't

(25:05):
remember my brain brain dead on a the well known
singer I like to uh but but anyway, uh the so,
but they never did that with Wolf, and he actually
did a real werewolf book too.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
That was kind of I didn't know that. I didn't
know that.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, it's up there.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
I found it somewhere. He has a one that's like
a traditional werewolf.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
But I like wolf and better.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
I really like you know what I want to say,
I hate to say, but really the what he's I
think a lot of people recognizing for us for the UFO,
the Yeah, the Extra, the et contact books.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, all those ones he's got, Yes.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, those are the ones that really The other day
they were was it Georgia Norri No, Marlene, I can't remember.
Somebody was interviewing him and he was talking what had
come with after he had published those books, uh, you
know for his abduction, Yeah, and how it was it
really like he got he got, for lack of a

(26:06):
better word, he got spanked in a lot of ways
his credibility because of what he had written about that encounter,
you know. So yeah, but a lot of people don't
realize that he had written all these other fictional books
besides the e TV, the abduction books.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
The horror writer so for a long long time and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah, and he had a good, good, good some
good books too. Yes, the vampire one was really good.
The sequel years later, which was this century, some people say,
but the first one is really really good. Hunger, the
one that made the movie too.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yes, I remember Hunger, Yes, I remember.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yeah, that was really really good. And I like the
way they did it. They weren't like undead vampires. They
just slipped long and they had to kill people what
they couldn't didn't have fangs.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
I mean it just yes, exactly, none of that, Yes,
that the undead thing, you know whatever. Yes, yes, I
like it when you when people put you know, like
a little bit, they go out of the norm of
these you know, urban legends or myths and things like that.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
Well, let me tell you have to do that one.
When I wrote Don't Where Land, I wanted to do
a haunted house one. But I didn't want to do
a hanted house one because haunted houses there's a lot
of them out there, and you can do a lot
of just one that just came out that was different.
And then the last few years, a few months ago,
another author, I know, he wrote one how to Sell

(27:34):
Your Haunted House and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
But you know that there's you know that there's real
estate agents that that's what they specialize in what they
call stigmatized properties. Because of that.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
There is a TV series on sci Fi and it's
uh Hulu, No on Hulu, and it's, uh, that's what
they are. They're they're agents and actually never of the
go so that people can sell them. It's really funny.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
Well no, I was one time. I said, oh, come on,
and they were saying that, yes, and it's that or
if like the property anything's like like a murder or
something like that, and it's got a reputation that there's
basically a subset of realtors that they can cleanse and
they sell your property.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
They can sell it for good money. I knew if
an investigator her in a group was twice they did
to this place and it was in Petersburg, which you
would think would be really really on it. It's a
very good place. But in this place was that old.
It's seventeen under it's and I walked past it. It's
in my Petersburg ghost book and I remember thinking, God,
it's a real fixer upper. There's holes in it and everything,

(28:41):
but it's I wonder if they sell it cheap And Okay,
that's like an old historical house. But they got nothing,
and the lady was upset because she said that she
that was with a big price to sell us on it.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
So you know what I've noticed is as as a
matter of fact, around the corner, for me, there's a
house here. I want to date it back to maybe
eighteen ninety five, eighteen ninety six. I went in there
one time with one of the other ladies. And the
only thing that that that's I think keeping it up
right is the brick chimney. The rest of it is

(29:13):
wooden to floor. Outside has got a big cementsis turn
but that that thing is like we were always helping
and one time they said, oh, somebody's gonna buy it
and turn it into like a restaurant. But that never.
But from what I understand, sometimes when it's a historical house,
they make Sometimes the new owners follow a certain code

(29:36):
of building or rebuilding it or remodeling it.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
Well, the outside they can't change it. They have to
have a certain type of way. So that's why you
have to almost hire somebody. Historically something goes wrong with
the outsider, they have to paint it.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah, like they want to go to keep it and
inside people have changed in their homes and not been
I know, but I think that's sometimes the costs, you know,
especially like when you said, a fix your upper.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
But it's also if it's really haunted and they fixed
the inside to make it more comfortable, that brings out
the ghosts. I lived not far from one. It sent
my two Haunted Richmond books. It's up the street from
me here, and I've been inside it and it's yeah,
it's haunted by the lady in red and feel that.
And they moved the house too. Oh it used to
be and when they sold that to become a shopping center,

(30:23):
they put that back there and she she went with
the house and she stayed shopping centered on.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, I've heard of that. Where was it the other day?
Telling a story? This is up in uh was it
Long Island? And it was the same thing. It was
the house and right next to it was the barn.
And at some point, I want to say, they did
back to the early eighteen hundred to what it was built.

(30:51):
And at one point, like in the nineteen forties, they
separated the barn and they, like you said, they moved
it like down the street. They just moved it and
they made it into a small house, and the there
was a lady that lived out there who she was
like the first postmistress out in that little eye by
herself when she was twenty one. This is like you know,
you would drive the mail out and the packages and everything.

(31:14):
And she was very fond of her horses. And the
people that ended up occupying what used to be the
barn would say that she was. They would see her
over there because she would come. You know, her thing
was the horses. She was very attached to her horses.
And like you said, even though it technically was at
a different spot, she would still go over there. She

(31:36):
followed it.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
So there's a couple of places out there, actually in Stanton,
pronounce it right, Stanton, Virginia. It's going to be in
paranormal Appalachian Trail and their mental institutions. One of them
actually is connected, believe it or not, to the genetics
over here thing going on with Hitler believing over there, right,

(32:00):
I had it here in the thirties. The doctor was
famous for it. I mean, stories really horrible, So I
can see why that place would be really wanted. But
they moved to a new one. They made up a
build a new one and they swear that workers that
went to work with the new one that almost left
where it was for people to you know, but they

(32:21):
would have incidents happening with the elevators in the new
one too, I believe. So did the ghosts move from there,
some of them over to there.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
They were haven't heard of when people have when they've
repurposed material, whether it's stone or timber, that sometimes whatever
was happening in the original house, when people repurpose materials, right,
they still get some type of a haunting in some
cases even and we're just talking here materials, it's really

(32:53):
a different structure. But yeah, yeah, so it's like some
type of I don't want to say, like an imprint
as to what was going on. Then you hear about
people that like the whole neighborhood or the whole block. Yeah,
Scott's stuff going on.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
Well, Virginia is pretty wanted. Actually, there's a guy doing
a panel of a few weeks on the fourth but
the great grand nephew of Bram Stoker, Nat and a
couple other authors were doing a vampire baker. Yeah, Darcy Stoker, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
I've interviewed hi. Piece. Really interesting.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
If I think we're gonna be doing that, and anyway,
my brain would bring out off track. But there is
the libraries haunted too, they think and all that, and
it's really library, so it's Richmond. But anyway, the guy
in charge to put it together as a local ghost

(33:51):
tour guy and vampire tour went down and Richard he
came from Orleans. Uh, he too. He had problems with
the stuff affecting his sinuses and stuff. So he sold
his vampire one to a friend he had years there
and he moved from to here, which and he says
been doing a lot of because he's been doing the tours,
he's been doing research on Richmond. He says, he actually

(34:13):
said Richmond is more haunted than New Orleans.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
I believe it.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
I believe it, and I believe it because I said
I years ago they used to mention that the most
haunted city. This was years ago when I was younger.
I read it somewhere and I lived in California. The
most haunted city in the United States was considered Richmond, Virginia,
and actually not Richmond, but the haunted state was Virginia.
So I'm thinking Richmond would be because there's a lot

(34:38):
of stuff going here. We had the sixteen way back
to the sixteen hundreds. We had the Revolutionary War. This
became the capital after Williamsburg. We had a Civil war.
We had a fire downtown Richmond had a big fire.
The theater burned down. So it's famously the church there
is haunted. That's empty. It's a historical thing. But but

(35:00):
they've had things because they think to do with the
theater fire, there's all sorts of that. We had the
train buried under the hill in the nineteen twenties. That
was the second time he went and and it's still
under there, and it's about shackle Bottom. There was a train.
They were kind of decided they wanted to go around,
not round Richmond, but make a tunnel to go through it. Okay,

(35:23):
so they took an engineering train to dig it out. Well,
it collapsed on the front. It killed the engineer and
a few others. Well, they brought him out. He wasn't
quite dead, and that was the story that that was
him that they found. But he looked, you know, and
he died. But there grew a vampire story with him. Okay,

(35:45):
the Richmond vampire. He's real famous here for most people.
He supposedly the story goes that someone they came to
this guy leaning over this other guy that was brought
out of the the caven and the guy the thing
jumped up, turned around, had a mouthful of jagged teeth
ran and they all start chasing it. Of course, if

(36:07):
you chase from where that is all the way to
Hollywood Cemetery ends up, it'd be a long time on
either horseback or by foot. I mean now you are
to get there and mint, but not that. And they
ended up finding chasing it all the way to the
tomb of w. W. Pool. So for years they said

(36:28):
he was the Richmond vamp, or he had died he
was pay I had probably was sickly. I mean there
was no other stories you could look up about anybody
dying of blood loss and stuff. So him and his
wife had to be buried that I took a tour
with some friends when we were at a book club.
We need a tour there in the fall, and they
said they had to rebury them in an undisclosed location

(36:50):
because people for years was trying to break into the tomb.
Either they were Satanists, right, I was going to say,
people don't realize that, yeah, or they thought he was
at and they wanted to stake him. Yes, so they
had to remove his body. So their bodies aren't in there.
There's somewhere else in the park with the big famous cemetery.

(37:11):
But yeah, here's the Richmond tep. His tube has got
the slam on it and it is kind of creepy
that lamb on top of the tomb. But yeah, we
have the Richmond Vampire. So we have the Richmond Vampire.
And now we have the hint and Raka werewolf.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
So you know what I'm going to This is when
you brought up Richmond, I was like, wait a minute,
this was like three years ago.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
This is this is.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
I researched it because I was looking at stuff with
Marty Gras. And people don't realize that Marty Gras was
celebrating a lot of Southern states. It wasn't just New Orleans.
And back in eighteen forty two, Marty Gras is going on, Okay,
there's a murder. There's a guy named Fletcher Heath. He

(37:55):
and his friend partner. They have basically you know how
they would up like a Faraoh table room, but people
like had had like a one room gambling joint kind
of deal. But anyway, Fletcher heat he gets jealous of
his mistress and his friend partner whatever, uh, and he

(38:16):
ends up killing her. He ends up stabbing her. He
breaks through the door and kills her. But this is
how they described him, okay. He was dressed in gray pants,
a black frock coat, black satin vesselinen buzzom and collar,
black satin stock, and high shoes. He wore black kid
gloves and a black overcoat with a green suit out.

(38:39):
He was five feet ten inches and weighed about one
hundred and thirty pounds and was about twenty five feet old,
twenty five years old. He had dark eyes and long
black hair. Oh my god, that's my grandson. His complexion
was livid, with a long face, sharp feature, and cheeks
sunken below prominent cheekbones. I don't know, but to me
that sounds like a vampire.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
And I know.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
And by the way, this is how the newspapers of
the day described him. This is how they described and
this was not he ended up. He had family in
a place called Petersburg. I think that's close by there.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
Bottom line, he's kind of it's a little bit longer
distance if you're walking or even by horse. By car.
It takes half an hour between but he lives on Richmond.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Somehow or other. He he shot his friend like behind
the ear, but the bullet got jammed but didn't kill him,
and he escaped before going to trial for killing his mistress.
And they were saying that his family and apparently his
family was well known there in that Petersburg area.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yeah, they at Petersburg was famous, more famous in Richmond
for where you can go to the opera and everything.
In fact, Paul had his wedding and his honeymoon there.
Who I've been to his honeymoon, that's in my Peter's
Burg book. I don't know what it's like now because
the guy tried to earn kick started money to turn

(40:06):
it into a bed and breakfast upstairs, and he didn't
get it. Of course everybody was I guess, was more
interested in other stuff than what he could do. And
then he sold it to a guy that was into
the business of the filmmaking. Filmmaking was done enriched in Petersburg.
Now it's I heard it's a beauty parlor. That's what
I've heard, And I don't know. There's the first floor.

(40:29):
It was higher. Haines owned it. He was higher Haines
coffee shop or coffee but what they call coffee houses
wasn't what we think about it back then. But he
was friend of Paul. He was a pulled himself, an editor,
and he told him, he says, stead of honeymooning, they
got married in Richmond, come here at Petersburg and stepped

(40:49):
up in my above higher my business, Hi Haynes business.
He had his house in the back, so him has
family back there. And so Paul was on the second floor.
And I've been where their the room where their bed is,
and the and the parlor they even had at this
point for a long while, he's had this uh dial thing, well,

(41:10):
you know, like you have for posing with clothes on.
She's sitting at the window and they say every year,
supposedly January thirty first they say that that she comes
to the window, that's a really wife. But I don't
know if that's true. I didn't when I did a
ghost box session there and he let me do that,
and I went up there to that and the third floor.

(41:30):
The third floor was actually a Civil War hospital. When
it was it was in the middle of the siege.
They had the hospital up there, but I went to
the second floor. I didn't get poll. I didn't get
Pole's wife for I know, maybe that was their happiest
spot anyway, So I don't know that's why they would want,
you know, the happiest. I did get the French guy
that owned it before Haines owned it, and I asked

(41:55):
him to speak in some kind of I said, well,
can you speak in French? Proven you okay, speak a
little bit the English? And accident he says we So
I said, okay, I guess you're telling me yes. So
I got him and all that upstairs. I did get
the nurse that nurse the Civil War soldiers and the
Civil War soldiers okay, And I got a picture. It's

(42:16):
in the book. It's on the window. There is nothing
outside of the window, the brick. They had turned that
part in the area down below into a part of
the restaurant, and so there's a thing underneath for the
second floor. You can walk cross there, but it's got
brick walls. There's nothing on the walls outside, there's nothing

(42:36):
on the glass, And there was nothing on the glass
when I took the picture and looked at it straight on,
And of course he thought the guy that owned the
place says, oh, it's got to be Pole because he
was actually himself was a retired editor from New York,
so I had the pole right editor all that stuff.
But I said, well, they all looked like that. They

(42:57):
could be in the Civil War soldiers. They didn't look
like we think of the military today. They all look
like Paul in a way. Paul was in the military,
and we've seen pictures of them. He didn't look any different,
so it could have been anybody on there.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
But sometimes some of these things that you see through windows.
And I'm glad you mentioned that there was a brick,
but sometimes if it's if there's any reflection that can
come in from the outside, as far as landscape.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
There's no reflection. It was inside the other side.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yeah, I see, that's what I mean.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
And it's just, yeah, it looks like it's a figure.
My editor saw it. I didn't have to say anything. Yeah,
I said, I don't think it's Paul, But I mean,
he didn't answer, so it's kind of odd. I mean,
but what the soldiers did answer, and so did the analysts.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
Sometimes some of these goes or whatever images that show
they're not the usual suspect sometimes things go on in
certain places that they were never documented. You see what
I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
Well, yeah, they answered me, though they did answer, and
so the woman, in fact, the woman was she may
be nervous when I went down to the second floor,
so I had to go across that thing. When you
left through the door, it was through doorway ghost, there's
a like a like a bridge cross. I asked a
little few couple and I heard that woman's voice saying.
Woman's voice she followed, must have followed me down airs

(44:15):
to the second floor. Okay, what are you still doing here? Those? Huh? Okay?
I said, Okay, well, then I guess I'll go downstairs
and I'm good goodbye. I'm thinking I don't I'm thinking
I'm not going to push her. I don't want her
pushing me down because, like you know, she was really
she was really like that upstairs too, uh huh type
of attitudes. So I'm not gonna upset her if I

(44:37):
went down on the stairs quietly. But she did she said,
what are you doing here still? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (44:43):
You know, and you hear that a lot from people
doing paranormal investigations. There's like this this ownership kind of
thing going on.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
Well, it's they're people. I've learned so much like I've
had people go, have you ever had demons? Oh? No,
you must, No, I said. The two people in my
life ghost in my life that were bad, I can
tell they weren't demons. They're just bad people. They I mean,
they cussed and they do some One was in a
bookstore and he was browbeating the little kid that was

(45:14):
on there too, and I said, you know, honey, I said,
go on over to side to his parents. I said,
you don't have to have any big bully bull you
after death needs it. Wife. But yeah, he he let
me know off the bat, you know, get out of
this place and going no, I can't. We're here investigating
and this is a bookstore anyway.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
And because what originally the building was like what a
house or no.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
There's it's a shopping center. They actually we gather too.
There was a lot of dead people there. And my
friend who couldn't make the investigations on my team, she
had to have her tooth pulled. She did a lot
of research that partim richel what used to be there
was a lot of Monek and Indians to start with,

(45:57):
and then when the English came. They left one more
out west, so there's probably graves buried under and who
knows that they're if they either took them out and
threw away the bones. I mean, there's a lost story
that if the people are building these places, they don't
tell because then they'll be stopped by Historically, especially in Virginia,
it's very historical to stop anything happening because it could

(46:20):
be you know, and or they're either buried under there
and uh so the Indians are out there, so they're
right about that, but there is these were two not
Native Americans.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
So well, because I was going to say that person
doesn't sound like Native Americans.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
This the little kid was young and he said Civil
War time, he died regular and he'd and then the
man he could be regular for all I know. I
don't know, but he says he called me a bitch,
So I know that's that's that's why I tell people
that these people are like that. They didn'tn't believe me.

(46:57):
I told someone, I said, if you had a real
to God demon, you wouldn't be able to get rid
of it. These people are just people that were nasty
in life. And I'm not going to be any change
when they died, and no leopard. They say, leopards don't
change their spots. They sure don't. There was another one
that happened up northern Virginia was in a woman's bathroom

(47:18):
in this community center. They had a para con there
and they had luntioned it that one of the psychics says,
a guy and he's looking under the shower under the
bath stalls. I thought, oh my gosh, because part of
it had regular people there, so that means kids are
aling things the community center. Who knows a little girls there?
So I went in there. I'm the type that won't

(47:40):
take this from anybody. And at first I took a
picture and I'm pretty sure I saw shoes and legs
against the wall, but that was okay. I started my
ghost box and they came out with hardly any noise,
But and then I would hear something like a voice.
I said, who is there anybody here for the spiritual?
I said, can you speak up? Lot of what did
you say? And it got louder, and finally it got

(48:03):
where I understood what it was. Okay, you bitch every time,
And I said, oh, so that's all you can say?
He got louder, you bitch, and it's not. And I said, oh,
so are you the kind of guy that's in here?
Did you just purposely die here? I mean this is
a big area. He might not have died just in

(48:24):
a woman's bathroom. Exactly. You're gonna haunt a woman's bathroom.
I said, little girls come in here? Do you stare
under the stalls at little girls? You bitch, got word?

Speaker 1 (48:39):
You understand what you were talking about?

Speaker 2 (48:41):
He knew what I was. I mean, I mean, come on, like,
this is the only place you're gonna haunt a woman's bathroom.
I'm not. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
Let me take something. Some of these places people don't
realize that. Uh, some of these like uh, I'm sure
you've heard there's ghosts that this like or justlike women
like they have their preference or they'll give you know,
they'll answer questions, let's say when a woman's asking it.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
But they die in the area. They're gonna haunt their
bathrooms too. Hanraika's historical park up here. It's in my
Haunted rich Richmond too. It's onted em of the bathroom
because somebody said they didn't know that the bathroom thing
that's why I was always careful to that bathroom. I've
gotten a voice in their force, so I knew. But

(49:29):
she was trying to dry her hands when the investigate
had somebody investigate there one night, and she went and
they turned on they had left on her recorder, and
then she turned it back on. Listening to it, you
can tell someone said, you can write. When she's she's
complaining about she can't get the thing to dry, some
voice comes out of male voices. Oh, come on, your

(49:51):
hand's already dried. Okay, So she knew there was something
in the bathroom. So I kept thinking. I keep saying
when I go on bathrooms like places I know that
I have. I said, please, I don't want you staring
at me. I have issues. I know.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
It's really funny because you do hear that. I mean
places like restaurants or places that were like really old
and then they could get converted into a restaurant or something.
For some reason, bathroom seemed to be like a place
where people having counters. One time I was doing as
I wasn't a skyscraper, but it was one of the
first many skyscrapers in in Miami, and one of the

(50:31):
places that I had a reputation of being haunted was
the bathroom and it was like, of everything, there was
one floor in particular that had something going on there,
but it was of all the places, the bathroom. But yeah,
and I don't know if it has something to do
with water, I don't know. I just don't know. I
don't know what it is.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
I can understand if you got killed in there or
something like that, your stories, but right, but if you
didn't get killed there, why are you in the bathroom?
And if you're not, say a female, understand, but if
you're a male, believe me, their spots don't change. There
was another one that's actually a hotel in Walliamsburg, and

(51:08):
I gather talking to the people at work there. It's
who you learn to because they always had me do
an investigation thing like that. So to find out where
this hotel had it, they told me there's been issues
in that particular woman's bath room in the in the
convention center area. So we went there and we actually
got voice just coming out of our ghost box and

(51:29):
my friend Mark was filming me for he's the head
of ABA production, So we're hearing all this out the
box and then answering and the meter's going and and
a woman walks in there and a vampires. It's a
convention science fiction. She's wearing a vampire outfit and long dress.
Walks in there, okay, and then it gets quiet, and

(51:51):
then she comes. It's real quiet. The meter stops, but
the voice still talking. And the next a mon she's
walking back out and the voice stops, and I said, oh,
he must have been following her. But he wants the
woman's bathroom. So now we know why he's interested in
the woman's bathroom. Why would he follow her be quiet

(52:11):
after she left like he was following her? So right, right,
Sometimes they don't change their spots.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
Yeah, like there's something that they're like, uh, you know
that that's something about I know that in some cases
people don't think of it. But sometimes if that person
reminds him of someone they knew, they they kind of
like are interested in them or follow them around just
because there's something either the characteristics or even the way

(52:41):
they look reminds them.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
I hope that's what it is. I'm hoping. I'm thinking
it's other things.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
But that's what are you thinking?

Speaker 2 (52:50):
That's a pretty woman, I'm going to follow her?

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Oh yeah, well, I don't mind that, but at.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Least this one didn't cuss her right now, But the
other one that cussed I kind of like, it's little girls.
I don't like it when somebody's a psychic season peeking
under the stalls. I'm thinking some little girl goes in
there with the.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Heck, you know, and you know, this is probably what
they would This is their you know, like you said,
this is who they were when they were alive. So yeah,
so the like that lack of a better word, they're
called perverts.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
You know, they're they're been around for a long time.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
Yeah, oh yeah, oh god.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
That they don't change their spots. People think their demons
half the time. I said, no, most of the time,
it's just fanal gold stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
It's like, I'm Catholic, So.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
If anybody's going to believe in the demons, to be me, but.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
Think that that dying automatically enlightens you, and it's.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
Like no, not really. No, there's some people and I
don't think they're enlightened. There's some people probably are not
gonna They've been bad enough, you know, they're not going
to go to hell. No, they're going to and they're
not going to change theirselves the way they were. You think, well,
now you died, and you died bad, and you didn't
get forgiven, and you're afraid of hell. This is a
time right to prove yourself better.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
But you know what, a lot of them I tell people,
you know what, especially a lot of people, even if
during life they might not have been the religious kind,
but they might have had some foundation of it. Then
when at there, at the end of life, all of
a sudden, they either become afraid maybe of all they did,

(54:26):
or that there was always I don't think it's prevailing now,
not at all, but there was always a certain expectation
that you should be buried a certain way, you know,
you know, the like you're going to bury me and
consecrated in the grave or a cemetery, right, And they
to us were thinking not a big deal. But once
upon a time, stuff like that was important so much

(54:47):
so I'm sure you come across it. This is why
they wouldn't allow let's say, suicides to be buried in
a regular cemetery, or if somebody was hung, let's say,
for a for being a murderer, some type of criminal.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
Same thing if she's an actress, Oh, Yeah, Paul's mother
was an actress and she died here in Richmond, and
she was buried at Saint John's churchyard, but she had
no stone or anything. Nobody knew where. They knew basically
where the area was, but they couldn't be sure. They
didn't want to dig up all that. So they have
the pole muicy and put together money and they put

(55:23):
up a memorial to her there, but no one's for
sure where she's in that area. But they didn't give
her headstone or anything because she was an actress, right.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
That was like, yeah, you're one step up in the
there's one time. Well that's on my first book that
it was talking about, uh, a lot of these women
that ended up you know, being uh prostitutes, you know whatever,
you know, west and everything, and a lot of them
would end up changing their name on purpose so that
their families would never be But every once in a

(55:56):
while if they died or killed themselves, yeah times out
of tens, the ones that kind of gave them a
burial was the matter. You know, they were working in
aun brothel, but every once in a while, every once
in a while they would have the family, you know,
how you would go to the cemeteries and you had
like a plot area for the family. Yeah, they would
like claim the body, but like you said, bury her

(56:20):
in the corner back there with no headstone, so nobody knows,
like this was the shame of the family, you know
that kind of thing. And then like in life and
in death kind of thing, like we're not even marking
you where you are, your name or nothing.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
You're lucky we picked up the body.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
So yeah, they were well little kids that they're born.
When they're babies are not that much older certain age.
They have headstone, but there's no name on them because
they saved that name for the next That's what I
found out, taking really the oldest one I think done
in Suffolx which has the oldest church down there, and

(57:01):
they and they said that that's what they do. They
take the name for the next child. That's kind of
a weird thing to save it, because that's why they
don't give names right off the bat and all that stuff,
because I guess you think it's a little quicker.

Speaker 1 (57:15):
Little ones and all that interesting.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
I had never heard of that, So that's why I
see some children babies and stones, but they don't have
any name on it because that might live beyond the age.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
Interesting I had not. Yeah, there's the people used to
put more. That's the way I'm looking forward. Symbolism or
fought into like the burial and afterwards the h of course,
you know all these you know when you have these
obelisks and all this stuff, even those mausoleums. It was
like it even reflected on your you know, the way

(57:54):
you got buried mattered.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
And if you're rich, I saw the grave. I have
it in my It's gonna become my books coming out.
This was the only one Shiffer didn't take and end
up with the published a small press. I got my
rights back and dream Punks bringing it back out, probably
be January February, and there's a two pictures and the
ones at nine ones a day. I took the library

(58:16):
there their cemetery tour for Halloween, and he told the
stories about one woman there had enough money that not
only was the front of her stone engraved, the back
was engraved too. Wow, And he said that's because they
had she had they had money to do it. Yes, yes,
so that's the first time I've ever seen that.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
So, yes, this is it was like like you said,
it was like almost like a status symbol.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
Kind of deal.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
Yeah, it could have a kind of memorial the family
had in the cemetery. Uh, whether it was those big
giant obelisks or even god like a like a little
mausleium or family crypt thing.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Yeah, this was her summit, regular old grave and she
had the stone front and back. And I've never seen
that before, but that's what the guy said. He was
expert on learning all that stuff. That meant that they
hadn't the family and money to be able.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
And I know that they have a lot of things
sometimes that are like symbols and put on the graves
that you don't know. I mean, the people knew that
they meant. Now we look at we're like what, But
they had some type of meaning. Yeah, you know, that's
one of the things that nowadays, you know what, I

(59:33):
look at it and.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
M part of it.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
I think I think part of it is a cost
nowadays looking at it from through modernize. But when I
was down in Miami, it was this old cemetery.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
It was.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
It was abandoned, but this field was still there. In
other words, nobody had touched it, and at one time
it got it was owned by the by the local
Masons in that area, the lodge in that area. But
what what happen is in that area there's a lot
of limestone. Like I'm not kidding. You dig down like
six inches and you hit limestone. But they, the poor

(01:00:18):
people would bury it because as long I think they
would pay. They had to pay twenty five dollars to
dynamite the whole that's and the Masons would allow them
because what they were doing is that they were like
a lot of workers in South Florida. This was around
maybe the turn of the Centry a little bit afterwards,
so they were doing a lot of like the railroad
construction and all this, and they would basically allow them

(01:00:39):
to be buried there and for the like the least
amount of money. But yeah, nobody thinks of it. This
was the one area, you know where nobody else wants
a cemetery and we're just going to charge you guys
to dynamite a hole. But as a matter of fact,
I remember the I did get a legend but about

(01:00:59):
the memorials that were left to the the ones that
had been in World War One that the military gave
him the granite tombstones. Yeah, but everybody else. All you
saw was you know when the earth falls in Yeah,
you know, when it settles. Yeah, that was the only
thing left out there. But yeah, there's a lot of times,
a lot of these places that if it how's this?

(01:01:22):
If it wasn't for those three memorials from the three
soldiers from World War One, nobody would ever tell that
there was a cemetery out there. And I think that
happens a lot where after while, everybody forgets and before
you know it, somebody decides, hey, we're going to put
up a whatever fill in the blank, just because especially
if the lands become valuable. How's that?

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Well, I can tell you there's in Petersburg. Talk about Petersburg.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
There is a house made of tombstones, and that's famous
house made of tombstones for real, Petersburg sent the city
of Petersburg sold them.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
They owned this. Excuse me, this is from my allery. Jeez,
I take closer to stop it that the antibotics are
working on me. But they had took the they owned
the cemetery at the time. Now the government owned its
national cemetery, okay, but at the time they owned it
and they sold all the tombstones. Wow, this builder to

(01:02:21):
make get some money. They needed it. So as they
be built a house and the walkway, and it looks
like my son once with me that day. He was
an adult still he was a younger adult. Then he said, oh,
that just looks like bricks stones. I said, no, honeys
olds are grave stones inside the house. I gather the
riding is in there.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Let me tell you that's pretty creepy. That's pretty creepy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Well I can go on. I'll talk about the cemetery part. First. Well,
now the government owns it, and actually they built they buried,
uh because a lot of them were actually military Confederate
soldiers or Union soldiers buried there. So they they took
them and and they put little modern times. They put

(01:03:08):
like the modern ones on the flat on the ground.
So there's those there now. And also say what year
they were buried, because they got some World War One
soldiers there too. Later its own government, but that time
it was the city. But talk story about the place.
Now it was an LB. Taylor was famous around here
for writing lud he's looking up the ghost book story
for his books. So about that, well, I was at

(01:03:31):
a rich rich Blantford cemetery's office, because I went and
did their stuff, did an investigation around there with my thing,
my cause there's ghosts in the cemetery. But I'm inside
and the two workers were talking about the house made
of tombstone, and my ears popped up because they mentioned

(01:03:52):
about something like a ghost, and you're like, really over there,
I put my recorder down, what's this story about this
ghost in the house? So they talked the story. There
was a nephew. He got really drunk, so he came
home and to his uncles, and uncle says, look, you
really can't drive home. It's not safe for you doing it.

(01:04:13):
Go upstairs, go to bed and to sleep it off. Well,
he went upstairs and slipped it off, and he got
woke up by some song like a rebel yell, and
he sits up freaking out, and there's a Civil War
soldier standing in front of him who vanishes.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Oh boy.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
So they did follow their tombstone. And the funny thing
is I used to thought nobody was gonna haunt a cemetery.
That's the least place you want to haunt. You're gonna
haunt your house or whatever. Right, Yeah, I would your grave,
I mean your bodies are. But now I'm thinking, well,
these are different times. They probably bleed much differently than
I would. Yes, you know, and so for them that's

(01:04:53):
part of their selves as much as their homes and
ever elth. So, yeah, they're gonna follow the tombstone to
the tombstone now. And it was proof that they had
a ghost in there that Taylor only read about that,
but I found it by talking to these people around there.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Let me tell you something. They well, that's the one.
You know what it's like, you know, whether it's hunted
or not, Like, I don't know. I mean, at the
end of the day, it's material. But that's what I
was telling about. You know, sometimes people repurpose build timbers
or bricks or just stones and they get the haunting
that went with it. And I don't, like, I don't

(01:05:30):
know what it is about materials that you would think
the structure's not there, but for some reason there's on
a metaphysical level there's something there. Well where you don't
get manifestations, Well.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
To me, the tombstone is there. So that's why they're
haunting it. It's got their writing, it's the writing still
on it. Yeah, but you know, so they just kind
of probably think that's theirs. I don't know about other
stones at least I know that if somebody's attached something,
I guess if they had a favorite ring or something

(01:06:03):
and they died and somebody didn't bury it with them,
I guess that would probably. I can imagine what I
know that places with a lot of historical stuff for sale,
you know, I know place like that Curiosity and Oddity
placed over here in and Rik. We did an investigation.
Mike couldn't make it, but we did it. And and

(01:06:25):
some of it might have to do with the land.
I mean, it's Richmond area, and Reyko County, whatever, it's
all that, but some of it had to be the
stuff that came there and when we did it. Number One,
my husband, my husband's pretty pragmatic. He doesn't you know,
for a long while, he's very pragmatic, and he doesn't
you know, just immediately believe. They finally got him into

(01:06:49):
ghost hunting with me. And he handles the cameras. That
makes him happy. When he would have one that kept
going off, it would be looking other places, not almost
I had him go and look straight down toward the
front of the door and he find it moved up,
or moving this way, or moved this like someone had
actually physically moved it. None of us did. So he

(01:07:10):
had a movie he was getting frustrated or anything else.
But there was one where I was trying to do
a camera my camcorder and it didn't work that night,
and I'm pretty sure that was ghosts. But uh. But
the funny thing is my friend had her recorder in there,
and it's at one point she went and she calls
me later and she hadn't played it for it was

(01:07:31):
real loud to she go, it goes, she goes, it says,
h there was real quiet, and she was listening, listening,
and she says, all of a sudden, hey, should we
should we say something was a mad voice and then
one voice is, no, don't tell him anything. So it

(01:07:53):
was for a recorder where all the stuff was connected
to any of the stuff. I don't know. That's when
I was there. That had we figured out to be
when I was, no, but's not tell them anything. I
thought that was really.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Sometimes they it's really weird because sometimes you have hauntings
where they're carrying on the life that they lived while
they were alive, how that they're their schedule or their
actions are like they're on this, they're re enacting what
they would do, let's say, right, And then there's others
that seem to be aware of. So yeah, I was

(01:08:31):
gonna say that sounds like they're where they were aware of.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
You guys, we shouldn't tell them any I don't know
what secrets they wanted to keep secret, but.

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
Well, let me tell you something. The you know that
there was a time like uh, I want to say,
post post Civil War where they were you know, that
they were stealing the bodies from the graves to supply
these an anatomy departments for the universities. And that's another
one that I'm thinking, Man, that'll create a haunting. That'll
be it. You know, your body is like removed from
the grave and ends up being dissected at some university.

(01:09:07):
That was that was people don't realize, you know, think
of the that it was like, it was pretty common.
And what's really bad is that the head of these
university medical programs were the ones that were paying off
We're paying a lot of money sometimes to have these
uh these bodies brought in and by the way, they

(01:09:29):
didn't you know, some people think, well they were they
were picking up the indigent or whatever. No, A lot
of times when you said that thing about you were
being taken off. Some of these guys that were doing
the dirty work as I call it, which is like
pulling these there was a double purpose for it. They
were taking stuff off the bodies and then selling the body, yeah,

(01:09:51):
to to whatever university wanted them. But yeah, I said,
well that's that's a that'll that'll give you a hunting.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Sure, some mortuaries. The place will last. It's no longer
a hotel. I don't know what's going to happen. They're
turning it to an older senior citizen's place. And the
place is really haunted. It's in my Virginia hanty surgery.
I went to second Brnning. I got pictures, and that's
not all of the pictures, Believe me. There was a
lot of and it just a ghosts say, a lot

(01:10:25):
of Civil War soldiers in there. Fort mcgrider Hotel. But
next to it was a mortuary and I heard that
they had stories about it when it was a house
before that. So it's it's haunted, but it's haunted next
to a haunted area that they had a battle too.
But there was Actually there was a big battle in

(01:10:46):
Waynesburg during the Civil War and actually a lot of
the bodies, even those named after Fort m Fort McGruder
wasn't near there. That just named a hotel. What was
there was earthworks, and they buried a lot of the
bodies there, and in fact they found them when they
went to the back of the hotel they were doing
a landscaping.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
Oh boy, you're doing body.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
So yeah, a lot of them were. We were Northern soldiers,
I mean the Civil War, so it was the South,
so southern numbers were picked up, but not in the Northern.
So they're in there, and they're there because I actually
got become friends kind of in a way with one
of them. He was Northern soldier. He was real nice Tom.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
People don't realize that sometimes, especially during battle, they had
no choice because especially if it was well war and
if it was hot, they had to do these mass
burials of soldiers.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
Well, they dumped them right off the bat. That was
a big thing. The last one is in Haunted Richmond
two at Sailor's Creek. They that's when you know, lead
loss completely went straight on. His son died there. Actually
they buried both of them in there. They just dumped them.
The guy, the people in charge of that knew that area,

(01:12:02):
knew what was there. That was right, it's really haunted there.
It's it's it's probably more upon it than Getty's work.
But you know, like I said, I always say Gettysburg
has more press, but they have oh yeah, both southern
and Northern Barrier. They just dumped them all there. They
had no time. It was the last thing it lost

(01:12:23):
lost less war. Yeah, so that that one's on it.
But this one here, Yeah, there were bodies and they're
still there.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
And so they they you know, sometimes people think and
also I want to say a lot of times if
there was some type of fever, epidemic contagion, that's another thing,
you know, especially in the South when it got hot
and they had those yellow fever, other types of fevers.
Same thing, they were doing mass burial because first of all,
you got, yeah, a few of your people to do

(01:12:50):
the work of burial and moratoriums and things like that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
And they were well mass They got a mass barrow
at Jamestown. But that's because a lot of cannibalism.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
God, that's pretty bad.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
And Indians, Native American killings, especially cannibalism. Yeah, it's famous.
It's been the history, you know. Yeah, that was that
was James sound the first civilization. I know that the
Civil War ones they died from the war. Uh. There
was modern ghosts there. There was one actually helped him over.

(01:13:23):
That was really weird. It was a guy. He died
on the toilet. Someone told me after that that a
lot of people die on the toilet they think they're
going to the bathroom.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
I didn't want to.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
Hear, I said, I didn't want to hear that. You
know what. Who was it that told me?

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
I think it was a paramedic one time told me that.
I said what.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
And I was like, oh, no, what it is at
the time, but yeah, and his room would be haunted.
In fact, things would get lost.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
They had a.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
Couple lost uh there, and then they found it in
a drawer and the husband and wife were arguing. At
this point he was blaming urgent and it wasn't them.
And then they lost keys. One of the maids and
the head of the housekeeping. Remember what I said to
do about talking to them politely and you might get
things back in it because I've done it at work

(01:14:17):
for me even there and here, and they she said, well,
can you please get back my keys? My maid needs
to go upstairs and finish cleaning the rooms and she
can't do that without the keys. And I'm looking. They
had looked for the it's a very small rooms. Okay,
the bathrooms are really small, so there isn't much place
to hide things. Sure, so they had looked behind the toilet,

(01:14:39):
on the floor, everywhere, so there's nothing. At the time
when they went back in, the keys around the floor
behind the toilet able to tell her and her maid
to go upstairs and finish that. So they yeah. I
taught her. I said, just be polite because when I
had lost one of my stones for the drow, same thing.

(01:15:01):
I said, can you please bring back I know it's
probably my fault and lost and it's a big hotel,
long long distance, but if you find it's in a bag,
I'd be glad if you bring it back. And they did,
because it wasn't my husband that tore that bag apart.
There was nothing in it that night, and I want
to do the thing for the convention. I opened up
my to get my little recorder out and behind it

(01:15:22):
was the bag with the stone in it. They put
it in there. They brought it for me. Exactly I
said was thank you, thank you for being kind.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
About things reappear in places, sometimes in plain sight where
somebody's looked a million times, so you know, it's not
like I.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
I just told him, thank you. You were very polite
for you. But they, yeah, they they they knew me
every year through my ghost box. It would be Thomas,
the head of the Civil War Confederate soldiers from the North.
He would say after the first time we talked, you
know what he liked to eat, had a girlfriend and
her name within the Norton. The second time, I said, oh,

(01:16:02):
and he says, hi, Pam, Oh wow, Hi, it's my
Civil Wars fulcher. I said, you remember, and I said
remember over here. I didn't point it to Mark, and
he says, hi Mark. So he remembered every year. So
the last year the convention was leaving, I said, you know,
this is impolite on me. I said, you know my name,

(01:16:23):
you say it every year. You're real nice and everything.
What is your name? I want to call you by
your name before we leave, he said Thomas. So but
he was really really nice. I always believe if you
talk real nice to people. I don't care, they will
be nice to you. Like I said, they brought my
thing back, and I taught that to somebody. I said,

(01:16:43):
if you're polite. You know, I've had some investigators, well
you have to rub them up. No, no, not really
think about it. If I'm dead and one of you
guys come do this stuff, some of you do, you
want to be pushed over. I'm going to push over
that rail and I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:16:57):
Like Spencer thing, I don't think because.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
I mean, you know, it's be polite, you know, treat
people like you want to be treated. That's what I
was always doing.

Speaker 1 (01:17:07):
So yeah, yeah, sometimes I think that that confrontation thing
sometimes more than not backfires on investigators.

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):
You get get get them upset. I wouldn't be upset.
I would be upset too. Yeah, so that's not polite.
And they'll they'll they'll be polite to you most If
they're not, then that's because that's them and that's it.
As I said, most of the time, I've never had
any problems, So you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
Got to give them a chance. Pamela, for my podcast listeners,
what is the website that they can find you at?

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
H T P h T T T p s uh
Pamela k Kinney dot com. It's pr middle initial on
your on your U R L then right M E
L A K K I R N N E Y
there's two k's a lot of people seem right.

Speaker 1 (01:17:59):
That's what I want to make sure people understood. It
has been absolutely wonderful to speak with you again. And man,
you're busy, Like I've got two books coming out this year,
You've got another one in the works.

Speaker 2 (01:18:10):
It's like, yeah, I got two actually in works. One's
making me write the other one, and I'm thinking I'm
connecting that to the Norah Land. There's going to be
a series of no larand that's all I'm gonna say.
I'm not going to say what haunts to Land. It's
not a ghost, it's not the thing. I want people
to not to be surprised.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
So okay, okay, that's great. So it's gonna be a
series then right, excellent, But suck again. I mean, Tasa,
that's that's what that's what you you know, I personally
I like it. You know, once you get these characters
that you become invested in, that you want to follow,
you want to see, you know, what else happens?

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
That kind of deal.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):
That's wonderful. Uh again, thank you so much. I want
to wish you the best of luck, Pamela. Thank you
so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:18:54):
Take care.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
Bye bye bye bye. Mh wow.

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):
Let me tell you that that's one busy lady. I'm
telling you, I'm a writer to have all these books
she's it's people don't realize that the writing is even
when you're whether it's fiction or not fiction, but even
in fiction, and you can say, well, you can make
some stuff up, but still it's you know, you gotta

(01:19:23):
even though it's fiction, or you got to make it work.
How's that your storyline has got to make it work
and your characters have to be be otherwise people are
going to be like, I don't understand the story. But yeah,
so she's definitely a busy lady. And so I'm like
I said, I'm going to leave a link to her
website down at the credit to the show. And again,
you know, it's really funny how a lot of times,

(01:19:51):
you know, some places have urban myths when you go
stories that when you start investigating them, you realize it's
not quite accurate. And there's other that when you investigate,
you go, man, this is this is actually worse than
what's known out there, either locations or places. And again
I'm going to go back to what I always say. Yes,
sometimes certain things were documented, whether it was a murder

(01:20:13):
or or if it was a certain family that was
well known and they wrote up Remember, because you look
at some of the newspapers once upon a time, which
were the mode that most people besides letters, came and
became aware of things. They would even write about so
and so it's visiting so and so and so and
so has just returned from a visit to his sister

(01:20:34):
in Chicago. I mean, they it's kind of like a
printed version in a very micro not to the exent
of what we got going on with everybody talking about
what everybody else is doing. But anyway, you know, usually,
of course more important people, whether it was on a
town level or a national level, they got more exposure.
You know what they were doing, the good stuff and

(01:20:57):
the scandalous stuff. That's why they would take great pains
to shield themselves from scandal. Because again remember these were
the years that scandal on the family would follow it
for years. All right, everybody, remember I yet twenty five
years ago, their aunt, you know, ran after some guy
with a knife or something, you know whatever, or so,
and so they ran away, they eloped with you know whatever.

(01:21:21):
But by the same token, a lot of stuff. They
took great pains to keep it secret or and or
it just happened to people that house this, that didn't
matter that no newspaper guy was going to run out
there and write a story about it. It had to
be really something, really extraordinary for it to make the newspapers,

(01:21:48):
you know, as far as when I'm talking normal like
a regular person in the town or whatever. And again,
and then sometimes things just fell through the cracks, all right, remember,
especially if you know, sometimes you had towns and then
people lived on the outskirts, or they had farms, or
even the bigger cities. You know, sometimes nobody, no crime,

(01:22:12):
all right. People people sometimes up and left literally and
then sometimes people up and left not really the way
they went to was six feet under, and that happened.
That happened. And I think that sometimes that's why you
go to certain places, not let's say like a battlefield,

(01:22:36):
because obviously in a battlefield, you know, okay, people died here,
people buried here, or you know anything like that. I'm
talking places where supposedly nothing's happened, and you'll have weird
stuff going on in a house or like I was
telling us, say at the beginning of the whole block
or neighbors, and nobody can explain it is that sometimes
things went on there. And I'm not even in how's

(01:22:58):
this doesn't even have to be that somebody was buried there,
like in secret, even though that. But sometimes one of
the things, you know, when I was doing my research,
you know, a lot of these little towns, whether they
were mining, you know, these frontier towns. And by the way,
when I say frontier town, it doesn't even necessarily have
to be at West, could just be anything that's on

(01:23:19):
the edge of the civilization, all right, This could have
been the Midwest or whatever, whether it was a frontier town,
a mining town, a railroad town, a depot town, whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
A lot of these.

Speaker 1 (01:23:34):
Settlements, before they even put up some buildings, they basically
they were living on It was like a tent city, right,
People were living out of tents, you know, very nice,
you know, sturdy. I'm not talking to like no pup
tent and maybe then finally would put up one building.
But my point being that sometimes you would have settlements

(01:23:55):
with a lot of things happened, that everything was tense,
and then something would happen. There could be anything, you know,
the depot that the railroad was going to build here,
that everybody moved out here didn't happen. There was a
fire that happened a lot burnt everything out, and instead
every building they up and leave. The If it was

(01:24:15):
a mining town, the mine petered out, that was the
end of that same thing. Sometimes people got sick. In
some cases. If even if it was a mining town,
it was doing okay, but there was hey, there's the
forty or fifty miles away. They just discovered a new
vein of whatever, and all the people that were there

(01:24:37):
that would make up they ran over there. So the town,
the town would like slowly like basically disappear. My point
being that a lot of these towns that people think of, oh, well,
you've got the foundations, or there was a house, or
there's nothing left. If they had if that's a big
If they maybe had one building, maybe it was made
of wood, and then the rest of the place was

(01:24:58):
a tent with you know, in some places they would
just build the flooring, but what the actual structure was
a big giant tent.

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:10):
There's nothing to ever say that there was a settlement
there and people live there maybe one, two, three, four,
five years depends, all right, and nobody's around. And that's
another thing. Not all the time, but many times, the
majority of the people living there were transient in the
sense of sometimes, especially if they were going there to work,
they came from all over the place, all over the

(01:25:32):
United States, sometimes from even other parts of the world,
because they were just following work or of course, let's say,
in the case of a mind thing, hoping to strike
it rich. So there was nobody there to even remember
people's names or so and so was gone. They never
saw him again or her again. That's it, end of story.

(01:25:55):
And again people move on for it. One hundred years,
one hundred and fifty years. You know, eventually it becomes
a suburb or maybe even a small town whatever, and
people build on it and before you know it, WHOA,
we got weird stuff going on?

Speaker 2 (01:26:16):
Why is that? You know?

Speaker 1 (01:26:18):
Maybe they maybe at some point, let's say, somebody buys
it and was part of a ranch land that supposedly
was a field where all they heard was they had
was cattle grazing unbeknownst to them. Maybe at some point
that there was some type of settlement out there. All right, Again,
for all the for all the haunted places, and supposedly

(01:26:42):
the ghost is named as in oh, we know it
so and so or the other person or whoever, the
guy that built the house. I'm telling you, based on
my own experience, there's always a portion of it that
the usual suspect is not the right one, or there's
more than one. Yeah, there's maybe the one that you
know that there's a big portrait of them hung down

(01:27:02):
in the foyer, But there's other activity going on there
from somebody that has they nobody, there's no documentation of
something happened. Happened again, Let's go back where was it
I was I was researching. There was out in uh

(01:27:24):
New Mexico.

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):
Was it was it?

Speaker 1 (01:27:26):
No, Las Vegas, New Mexico. I'm sorry. It was this
little town and they put up some hotels because they
had mineral springs, right, and uh, people would go out there,
you know, different ailments, some worse than others. And of
course they at some point they were catering to up

(01:27:47):
they had different hotels, but mostly upscale. They had race tracks.
I mean, it was like, come and take the waters,
you know, and be healthy.

Speaker 2 (01:27:54):
But they had a.

Speaker 1 (01:27:56):
Bunch of lavish entertainment, right. So one of the rumors
going around was that people ended up dying in a
lot of these hotels, but they would keep it really,
really quiet because the last thing these hotels wanted was
if you're supposed to and let's face it, some of
these people that went out there were sick. They were
like really sick. They had some type of disease or

(01:28:16):
illness that it was terminal, but they went out there hoping,
you know, like that they were going to go to
these mineral baths and whatever. But anyway, they were saying,
how these hotels the last thing they wanted was to
publicize that one of the guests had died. Why because
if you are advertising for people to come and visit

(01:28:38):
to you know, the come and take the mineral waters,
and then while you're here, we have all these other entertainment.
Even at Zoy had everything's out there. Somebody dies, And
the truth is a person could have been was going
to die no matter what, whether they were there or
wherever they're at. But Unfortunately, the connotation was, hey, if
you're supposed to be a place where people get better,
people are dying. Point being that sometimes things happen to

(01:29:03):
a lot of places, which is hushed up for a
hotel for that very reason, besayd it's a scandal part.
But in this case the health angle, it was like, no,
we don't want we're not even talking here. Hey somebody
got shot or murdered or go away with or no,
it was just that they died, period, because yeah, just

(01:29:25):
does it's not a good look. So again, my point
being that a lot of times things take happen and
how's this and I'm not I'm here. I'm gonna say
maybe in smaller cities or towns where everybody, the infrastructure
of who lives there, whether it's the law, the business owners,

(01:29:49):
even the newspaper, they're all invested in this community, this
town thriving. And let's say in the case of what
I was describing here, where these hotels were the draw
for people to come to take their mineral bobs. Okay,
My point being that if something happened, whether it was

(01:30:09):
something weird or somebody died, there was like, for lack
of a better word, like a collusion kind of deal
of like, let's not we're not going to publicize this, right,
sheriff write newspaper guy. Yeah, And they were all in it.
Why because they all lived in that town. They understood

(01:30:31):
if the town or the hotels become known for people dying,
we're all going to suffer for it because we all
live in this area. We all prosper because this town prospers.
My point being that a lot of times things are
not reported entirely.

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
Like that.

Speaker 1 (01:30:52):
So yeah, and by this, I'm not saying anything oh oh,
like as in criminal, like hey, somebody was murdered, and
though that could happen, but like I said, just somebody
ups and dies and everybody like wings and nods and go, well,
you know, poor guy, he didn't die here, did he
know one of those deals? And you're not going to
publish anything in the newspapers.

Speaker 2 (01:31:12):
See. That was the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:31:13):
Sometimes certain articles would be written in smaller newspapers and
if it was juicy enough or interesting enough, then other
newspapers around the country would pick it up and run
with it. All right, So it was like, you're not
even going to publish a local story about this, because
the next thing you know, and maybe the paper for

(01:31:36):
the major city close to us is going to run
with it. Before you know, it's all over the United States,
especially if it was a slow news day, or if
the person that this happened to was even a little
bit well known, that kind of deal. So, yeah, a
lot of things happened that never happened documented or if

(01:31:56):
there were documented. People don't really understand dan who they
were talking about. And I've come across that in my
research where sometimes they'll and I look at that, they'll
give only initials of the parties, or they'll miss print
or misspell names certain things that I'm looking at this,

(01:32:17):
and I'm like, you know what, this was not somebody
making a mistake. This was like almost like a purposeful
way so that the person couldn't be tracked that that
would be Oh, that's so, and so let's first the
first two initials and we'll misspell the surname a little bit. Yeah,
that happens a lot. I've run across that on more

(01:32:39):
than one occasion, all right. And so in other words,
sometimes people don't realize what they're looking at as far
as if they ever did publish something, if they were
for some reason obligated to report it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:52):
It was.

Speaker 1 (01:32:54):
And then, of course, like most things, if you're like
a normal, everyday citizen, but nobody cares, it's a blip
on the radar. Let's say back then of the newspapers,
and that's it. It's over even now today. I mean,
there's unless you're some type of celebrity or well known

(01:33:15):
or it's got to be something some event. A lot
of things go unperceived. I'll tell you what we have
out here. We have a case of a young lady.
She's I want to say, it's twenty twenty three. She
went missing, and they kind of think they know who

(01:33:38):
either did something to her or knows what happened to her,
but this person's lawyered up. The bottom line, at the
end of the day, when all is said and done,
they really can't move forward with it because they've never
found her. They've never found her and haven't found, from
what I understand, anything to have definitive proof that this

(01:34:00):
person met without playing like, oh, we found a bullet
or we found some blood, or we that we found
that's hers. Nope, and it's stalled out. And that happens
more often than people think because everybody thinks of the
CSI effect, where you know, you know, we were going
to find you no body, no crime, and not even

(01:34:24):
enough circumstantial evidence to like nope. And as a matter
of fact, today I was talking to somebody, We're talking
about this case, and I said, hey, you think this
girl she's ever going to get found? And she goes, well,
you know what, because where I live there's a there's
a lot of big gators out here. They said that

(01:34:45):
that body probably ended up in some lake that that's
full of gaters, and that's it. You're not going to
find her. I said, olier that or you know, they
went to a piece of land, bug a hole.

Speaker 2 (01:34:54):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:55):
Nobody knows when it happens. People don't realize that it happens,
all right, Nobody there to prove one. They could have
suspicions and say well, this was the last person see
with this person, and they could say, well I wrapped
her off at the corner. She just left. I don't

(01:35:15):
know what happened to her. And unfortunately, for lack of
a better word, this young lady, she kind of led
a little bit of a risky lifestyle, as in unfortunate.
Maybe you know, the people well, no, the people she
kind of like surround themselves would not be the best kind.

(01:35:36):
So again that puts like another that kind of hurts
the I think investigations because any defense lawyer could say,
even if they say they went after the main person
based on I don't know what, but let's say, they
could probably bring up about five or six other people

(01:35:56):
that they could say, you know what, it could have
been any of these All these other people had motives
or were the kind that might have done something like
like gotten rid of her, her killed or something like that. Enough, noah,
And that's I think why on top of everything again,
that's modern day and that's always happened all over the place.

Speaker 2 (01:36:17):
Uh. The other day.

Speaker 1 (01:36:20):
They because I always look a lot of what they're
being able to do with DNA and cold cases, and
they're being able more and more to uh to id victims.
And there was one that it was in New Hampshire
and I believe they found a lady with two girls
in one of these steel drums and they're finally able

(01:36:44):
to id one of the girls in there turns out
her dad. They think that that's the thing that her
dad was the one that did away with them. But
the dad I can't remember his name. Now, this is
something I saw in passing. Probably was a serial killer
who died already. So they're all thinking that, you know, yeah,
but she I want to say, they discovered these drums

(01:37:06):
and you havem sure like nineteen eighties. But anyway, and
and one of the reasons that I remember this was

(01:37:28):
that they were asking they had suspicions of who the
woman was. This was before because remember DNA really has
gotten and the family said, well, she left with the
two girls, and we didn't she was supposed to be
going out to California. We just didn't hear from her,
and well, we just thought she was out there living.

(01:37:50):
And I'm thinking about, oh, man, what is that? You know,
how can you like, you know, somebody drops off the
middle of the earth, off the face of the earth, and.

Speaker 2 (01:38:02):
You're just.

Speaker 1 (01:38:05):
Assuming that they're just somewhere on the West coast. Okay,
I don't know. That's pretty like to me, it's like,
that's pretty bad. But anyway, again, that's why I'm saying,
there's a lot of weird and unusual things that go
unreported for lack of a better word, that at the end,
when you trace them back and they end up causing

(01:38:27):
a disturbance on the paranormal level. That you could research
it and research it and research it and you'll never
come up with anything. Sometimes you might, but like even
if you go into land records or you're not going
to find anything like that. And I'm gonna tell you something,
a lot of people make the mistake that they don't
find records. It's tied to Native Americans. Not really, all right,

(01:38:51):
not really. You know, there's a lot of stuff that
happened on the land, like I guess said that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:58):
No, oh, not really.

Speaker 1 (01:39:01):
Once upon a time people were buried in pine boxes.
All of that deteriorates and falls apart, even if you
knew where to dig to begin with. So anyway, guys,
I hope you like this interview with Pamela. She's a
very interesting lady. Go check out her website, check out
her books. Also sign up for my newsletter on uh

(01:39:22):
on Substack. Go to Miamighoschronicles dot com or Mpplaster dot
com or Eerie dot News and you're gonna find everything
about all the shows, links to everything, video podcast versions
of all the shows. And I will be seeing you
guys again soon.

Speaker 2 (01:39:37):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:39:38):
For being such a wonderful audience, Until next time.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}A World of Shadows | Interview with Pamela K. Kinney | Podcast