Haunted Places | Interview with Christopher Balzano | Podcast - Stories of the Supernatural

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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(00:42):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
That was everybody doing good. I hope, Well you know
what they say. Hold on, let me let me get
this straightened out here. Oh I'm telling you there we
go anyway, Yes, everything is good over here. As a
matter of fact, I was talking to the guests that
we have here about Halloween that it's everywhere you go

(01:27):
it's Halloween. It has been Halloween since August. But we're
talking We both like Halloween. We were talking about Halloween
once upon a time where people actually, you know, whether
you were a little kid or you were a little
bit older as a teenager, you actually walked around. I
remember I would walk blocks my friends, you know, when
I was older, like a teenager, and parents saying thing

(01:47):
with their little kids. They you know, they finally had
to get them home to bed, but everybody was You
would see a bunch of kids walking around like the
neighborhoods trick or treating and just having a good time.
And you'd see people you know from around, not everybody
who's friends is. In other words, it was it was okay,
But now it's not the same, not the same thing.

(02:10):
We're talking about how we miss the halloweens that used
to be. And yeah, and uh again, you know, like
everything kids are always looking to see, like what's the
good candy? What am I gonna get? For the good candy,
because that's that's children. But still, but besides the candy thing,
I think kids and the adults obviously if you were

(02:31):
you know, you was the excitement of your walking around
and if somebody had done something in their yard or
it looked scary or something like that, it was like, oh,
go up to the door and ask for you know,
the candy, trick or treat. I don't know, I wish
we could go back to that, but I don't know.
I don't know what to tell you about the anyway,
Let's like, let's look at an interesting new story about

(03:00):
something that well, you know what I've been It's an
old story that's been around for a long time, but
it's a mystery that doesn't go away, all right, And
this has to do with Amlia Airhart. Okay, now, Amelia
Earhart disappeared nineteen This was nineteen thirty two. Wait a minute, Okay,

(03:29):
this is out of the Daily Mail. Okay, this is
like the latest. This just came out as far as
they think they found her, all right, it says here
is this where a media Earhart's missing plane is. Scientists
say they've pinpointed the exact location of a wreckage using
a radio restored from nineteen thirty seven. All Right, it's
one of the most famous aviation disappearances in history, but

(03:52):
experts may be one step closer to finally locating the
wreck of a Media Air Hearts plane which vanished nearly
ninety year years ago. The legendary aviator and her navigator
Fred Noonan set out from Ley in New Guinea and
July of nineteen thirty seven as part of her bid
to become the first female pilot to circumnavigate the world.
They weren't seen again. They were supposed to land in

(04:15):
Howland Island, right, and the people there they heard her.
In other words, she came in on the radio, but
she just never arrived. So there's always been a question
did she crash, Did she crah not in the sea?
Some people think, okay, she crashed in the sea. There's

(04:37):
another version that say she crashed and her and Fred
Noonan got taken by the Japanese and they were held prisoners.
There's another version, which I didn't know about until I
started researching it, which was that they did this all
on purpose, and they came back to the United States
under assumed names, continued their lives because they used the

(04:57):
opportunity the United States of searching for her, in other words,
to spy on the Japanese. I mean, you name it.
There's been some version of what happened to this lady
and the fred Now back in twenty twenty four, they
had a group which has one of those you know
deep sea things where they said they saw the outline

(05:20):
of I look like the type of airplane that she
was at, but they had to and I guess, like
everything else, they had to go back to complete it.
And it's not the cheapest thing in the world to
do this type of research, but anyway, says here Na,
the Goes, which specializes in deep sea exploration historical research,
procured and restored a Western Electric thirteen C aircraft transmitter

(05:43):
and a Bendix Model are A one A receiver in
twenty twenty. This radio system is identical to the one
used on Earhart's final flight and has finally allowed the
experts to determine the plane's approximate location at eight am
on the day it vanished. The groundbreaking discovery. Significantly, he
finds their search area near Howland Island the Pacific Ocean,

(06:03):
the intended destination of Earhart's ill faded journey. Until now,
an area of seafloor measurement a total of three thy,
six hundred and ten score miles, roughly the size of Connecticut,
has been meticulously surveyed in a bid to find their wreckage.
A new expedition, the fourth launch by Nauticos, will be
informed by test runs on the radio that recreated this

(06:24):
circumstances surrounding the disappearance. Blah blah blah blah blah blah. Okay, that,
by the way, I believe this is Howland. By the way,
Holland Island. It got heavily, heavily bombed right the day
after Pearl Harbor. As a matter of fact, they had
like I think four six people there are two of
them got killed. They got shot, They got killed in that.

(06:51):
And now I believe it's just accentuary. I believe they.
I don't know why they're calling it Howland, because I
think they renamed it in her honor. Right. The Earhart
at plant to fly west to east around the world
in a series of thirty four legs. When she disappeared,
she was on leg thirty one and had covered twenty
two thousand miles with seven thousand miles to go. As

(07:11):
part of her journey, she had to incorporate a stop
on the tiny Howland Island to refuel, as their aircraft
did not have the range for the South Pacific. This
particular leg of the journey involved a twenty five hundred
and fifty six mile eighteen hour flight across the International
date Line. The Coastguard ship Itasca waited with fuel for

(07:32):
the next leg of the journey and began to receive
Erhart's intermittent voice messages, which increased in strength, indicating she
was getting closer to Howland. The Itaska received Earhart's strongest
radio voicing not seven to fifty eight am, when she
told them she was circling and searching and running low
on fuel. The last transmission was received at a forty

(07:53):
three am. But then nobody ever heard from her again.
Now I'm wondering of what she's saying here, I'm circling,
She's circling over holand or what is she circling. Nevertheless,
private companies, individuals, and groups have continued to look for
the wreckage. Okay, all right, so, and there's more about

(08:14):
the different theories I talked about as to what happened
to her, she had, she crashed on an island, she
got killed. There's ones that she did last land on
an island, got marooned and died there. There's another one
that she was taken by the Japanese. There's another one
where she came back to the United States just to
give an excuse for the United States to spy, which

(08:35):
I don't know, that's a little bit far fetched. Yeah. See,
Earhart was an American spy sent to gather information on
the Japanese ahead of World War Two. Theory six, Earhart
and Noonan aren't able to locate Howland Island and head
towards her contingency plan. After a ten hour journey back
towards the location they came from, they crashed in the
jungle of East New Britain Island what is now known

(08:56):
as Papua New Guinea. It's really interesting when you look
at all the theories, how's that that are out there
as to what happened to her? Okay, As a matter
of fact, like in twenty twenty to this guy was
able to sell one of her caps, like you know,

(09:17):
one of those pilot caps for thousands of dollars and
apparently his grandmother had been at one of these things
where she was at and she took the cap off
and threw it into the crowd. The guy that was
with her grandmother caught it and inside it had the
inscription Amelia Earhart. His grandmother put it away so well,

(09:40):
and like in twenty twenty or something like that, they
found it and he had to get it authenticated. Then
he put it up for auction, went for thousands of
dollars just to be able to have like memorabilia pertaining
to Amelia Earhart. So I don't know, what do you think.
Do you think this lady crash landed? Did she go
into the water? Did she go into it? By the way,

(10:02):
there was another one. There was one of the islands
where they did find some bones, but the bones don't
because she was a tall woman. She was like five
six or five seven, and this guy that was with
her was like six feet and they found some bones,
but even it was a man, smaller man. So every
time they come up with human remains or bones somewhere,

(10:22):
they look to see, you know, if it's in that
flight area, if this is them, and they haven't. That's
another thing they've not found the plane either they haven't
found the plane either, So there you go. But anyway,
let's get onto the good part. The good part is
who is here today as stories of the supernatural. He's
been here before. His name is Chris Balzano. He's a writer, researcher, folklores,

(10:46):
and current host of the podcast Tripping on Legends. He's
been documenting the unexplained since nineteen ninety four and has
been a figure in the paranormal world through his books, articles,
and his work as the director of Massachusetts Paranormal Crossroads
and now Tripping on Legends. Chris Balzano is the author
of several books about regional hauntings, dark Woods, cults, crimes

(11:07):
and the Paranormal in the Freetown State Forest, and Ghosts
of the Bridgewater Triangle, as well as a collection of
true ghost stories, ghost the Adventures and Haunted Objects, Stories
of Ghost on Your Shelf, and the how to Paranormal
books Picture Yourself Ghost Hunting and Picture Yourself Capturing Ghost
on Film. He's been a contributor to Jeff Blangor's Encyclopedia

(11:28):
of Haunted Places and Weird Massachusetts, and was one of
the writers behind Weird Hauntings He's appeared in more than
two dozen other books, often called in to offer insight
into the paranormal or perspective on a certain case. He's
published four titles about haunting in Florida for Arcadia History Press,
titled Haunted Florida Love Stories, Haunted O'kala National Force and

(11:49):
the Ghostly Tales of Ocala National Force, and the New
Haunted Southwest Florida. He's appeared on radio stations across the
country and throughout the Internet, as well as being called
upon by television shows to comment on ghosts and urban legends,
including the British television series Conversations with a Serial Killer.
He's been a guest on Coast to Coast AM and
been asked in as a consultant on television shows like

(12:11):
Paranormal State and Ghost Adventures. He formerly ran the paranormal
news at Ghost Village and headed up Ghost Village for Kids.
Help me welcome him? How are you doing today? Chris?

Speaker 3 (12:23):
In serious need of shortening that bio. That's what it
seems like.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
I don't worry about it.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
You know what.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Sometimes I know people leave their bios up and their outdate,
and I was like, this sounds pretty up to date,
but I.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
Hope itself was Florida and that's that's pretty up to date.
So okay, yeah, I shortened that a lot because you know,
no one wants to hear the litany of of books
that I've written like that, or you know, like where
weird things I did. I definitely know I took the
I've taken recently, So I don't even know how I

(12:57):
took the Coast to Coast part out because you know,
that's that was like, no one really cares about that.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Oh it does, believe it or not, I want to say,
and let's face it, primarily because of Art Bill.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
Okay, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Like you know, I mean later on, I know, Coast
to Coast kept going without Art Bell, but everybody knows
Coast to Coast because of Art Bell. And you said
coast and everybody knows.

Speaker 3 (13:20):
I think I think Norry's probably done Coast to Coast
twice as long as Art Bell has. Yeah, but and
I you know, in terms of an achievement, all I
know is that back in the day, I mean only
a few years ago, like before our passed, I stepped
in as co host of his newer show, okay, you
know Midnight in the Desert, Yes, and loved it. And

(13:44):
I'm the only person I know who got booted off
of Coast to Coast. So if you're asking me which
I love more, I'm definitely a bigger Art Bell fan
than I am a Coast to well you know what.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
I've listened to both, but I'm more of an Art
Bell fan.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
Yeah, heck yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
And it was like, you know, I know he did
Midnight in the Desert and then it just went.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
Art never threw me off the air, so.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
I I yeah, no, I understand why.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
But you have the opportunity to do that tonight, so
if you want to, right.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, for sure. I mean I know that there was
a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes as
far as you know, weird stuff with the rights and everything.
But at the end of the day, though, again, Coast
to Coast is known because of Art Bell, because that
that overnight show where you had some great stories and
a lot of cookie people calling people love that.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, I mean it's it's you know, I got stuck.
I got started watching you know, uh, you know, in
search of and then you know, kind of like the
lineum in search of and then unsolved mysteries and then sightings, right,
and so it was so like great introduction Amelia Earhart,
like you know, like five six years old being you know, knowing

(15:01):
details of Amelia Earhart. And then the next generation of
that I always felt was Art Belt, you know what
I'm saying, and I and Coast to Coast, And that
was for a lot of us who are my age
who are doing this. You know, obviously there are people
who are younger or whatever and their goal is to
get on Coast to coast. For what they're doing is

(15:21):
like being a fan of that. That was an extension
because at that time you didn't have eighty three different
podcasts about any given subject. Well, you know, that was
the game.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
That was the thing. It was like the I mean,
I've listened to his old old like nineties and you know,
he new letter and you know, and everything and everything
is by snail mail, that kind of real, right, And
but the truth is, from what I understand, he never
expected that the subject of the paranormal and all these

(15:53):
stories and especially Overnight was going to take off the
way it.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
Did, you know, and it's it was the It was
also the that it was so influential and it was
moving the needle if you if you really, I don't
think it's as much anymore. But back then, when he
started talking about remote viewing, remote viewing became the trend.
When he started talking about shadow people. Shadow people became

(16:19):
a trend. When he started talking about shadow people with hats,
that became the trend, don't.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
His interviews with father Malachi Martin.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yep, I mean that's you know, and it was the
other interesting part of that was I remember in those
early days of listening and I'm listening like in you know,
the early nineties on the idea of EVPs. Yes, so
I had, you know, we had always gone out and
tape recorded what we were doing, you know, back in

(16:48):
the early days of me, you know, investigating, which now
I see more as like legendship and what I do
now than actual investigating. But to actually have some legitimacy
to things like EVP ease or to uh, you know, orbs,
and more importantly because it was our felt like you know,
of rods things like that, it was it pushed me on,

(17:12):
you know, So it really was I don't know if.
I don't know if because there's so much I guess,
just like everything like television and versus you know, streaming.
I don't know if there's so much out there that
there's one voice that really pushes this stuff forward. Well
you know what, I think that's for old people like me,
you know, but.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Well let's not go waitee, I'm older than this is
what I think. You know. Hans Holtzer of course had
his books, and like you said, in Search of and See,
all these programs usually looked at historical places, you know,
the castle, the mansion. Even when Hans Holtzer he did stories,

(17:54):
you know, he did historical locations up in like New York, Connecticut.
And I think that what was really interesting about our
belts was that you had regular people calling in, like
especially on the Ghost Ghost one, the one he would
do for Halloween, when you would hear regular people calling
in telling their own first hand accounts. This was not

(18:15):
like some historical occasion. You know, it's been there three
hundred years and two people got no, no, no. These are
ordinary people talking about their experiences, either one time or
living in a haunted house. And I think that that's
what made it so alluring and why people just and
of course it turned out there was a lot of
night owls out there, truck drivers of people drivers.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
Years ago, I wrote a I wrote an article that
ended up getting picked up by fate. So that's how
that's how I'm talking about it called does the paranormal
need their Landmarks? And so I'm here and it's kind
of like as a dual thing because I come home,
my son's here. My son's twenty, and he's watching what's
his named? Sam and Colby? Okay, and they're at They're

(19:00):
at the Sally House, yes, And then they were at
like I could see down below. I'm like, oh, the
Lizzie Bourdon House, which I've been in, you know, like
you know a few dozen times, right, and uh. And
it reminded me of this idea that like, yeah, you
do need those kind of landmarks, but really, the pulse
of your average person. I shouldn't say that, the pulse
of your average person who's into this stuff and makes

(19:23):
it a part of their life, Like truly, it's those
true ghost stories told by average people and not the landmarks.
So we need the landmarks, right, you need Waivers Hills,
you need you know, you need these, you know, the
Gay Murder House and the Stanley Hotel in those places,
because those are like the shrines, yes, but it's the

(19:47):
it's the it's the everyday hauntings. And for me now
like the everyday legends like I you know, if you
were to ask me what is on my bucket list,
my bucket list is not any of those landmarks. It's
the story I didn't know yet. You know in some
small home is some small town that everyone in town
knows that you go to this bridge and you say
something exactly, that's the story that I want to explore

(20:10):
so much more than those big places.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Right right and see and that again, that's why I'm saying.
I think that that's why when Art Bell started doing
that coast to coast, that people are listening because they'd
love to hear these stories about I. You know, I
grew up in this haunted house like you said in
the Shadow people, or I would hear this knocking, or
you know, I saw this and I saw that, And
people love this because this was like not a historical place.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
This was like and I think that, and I think
that those the people who are on regularly became became figures, right,
mels Hole, meles Hole. I mean, but even like you know,
like Lord arbuch and and uh, you know my fa

(20:55):
my favorite of all time this It used to be
my nickname when I would go into chat rooms is
Hilly Rose. But like those people became the stars and
you were tuning in because that person was there, whereas
now it's the exact opposite. Now it's like they bring
the guests in and the guest is supposed to be
the star already and promote the show. So it's it's

(21:18):
just kind of a weird thing about it. But you know,
I don't think I've really listened to to to Coast
to Coast, not because I got booted off of it,
but I just don't think I've justiciated in a really
long time. Yeah, I remember the smiley face killers, like
breaking on that show with the guy from Minnesota. I

(21:38):
can't think the minister guy from Minnesota was the co host.
Minnesota was the co host. I can't remember his name
if you have, If you have, I'm listeners right now.
They're they're beating their head going it's this guy and
I can't remember. He's like my favorite co host on there,
so but he broke the you know, on a random Thursday.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
Night though, uh no, no, I'm out of Minnesota. I'm thinking.
Let me see, I'm trying to I know like he was,
because I'm thinking and the ones I'm thinking about are Canadian.
Uh there's Surret and but I think he's Canadian.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
Hold on Iannett, That's who it was.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Okay, okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yeah, And I just I loved and I love the
the you know, but it was it was that idea
that it was by the seat of your pants and.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
That it was I want me to tell you what
the secret sauce though, was arts bumper music.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
Yeah, I don't want to even do it. And I
I remember the Halloween that he uh he broke down
and quit. It was on Halloween and I was waiting
for ghost to ghost. I remember that was a I
was in a basement apartment in uh in Boylston or

(22:56):
what you call Brighton, Massachusetts. R outside boss like this
on the radio and it's it's two in the morning
because it was Savings already and then it was a
replay and I'm like, what's going on here? What's going
on here? And it was you know, it was appointment
listening every single night. So anyway, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
That was let me tell you. I have a page
on my website that I did a playlist of his
bumper music and I set it up from uh SoundCloud,
and I have it on my website because I loved
all of his bumper music. But you know, he had
several songs throughout the years, even Crystal Gail did one
song that was made just.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
He loved Crystal Gale, he loved.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
And let me tell you something. To me, that thing was,
you know, because besides, they were the songs at the time,
you know, so you equate them the nostalgia of what
was going on when you hear those songs.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
So I guess, like, you know, the point is that
you know, my my son, my son's needle is moved
by Sam and Colby. And you know, like a few
years ago, I was teaching my kids to legendary, which
is different than investigating, right, yes, yes, And they were
watching a lot of BuzzFeed Unsolved, Supernatural or Paranormal. I

(24:10):
can't remember which one it's called, and they want, yeah,
you know, and I was like, but that's not legend tripping,
that's more investigating. But we kind of incorporated in. So
I think that there are people out there I don't
know if they're the best representation, but I'm sure like
there were a lot of there were a lot of
older investigators from the eighties who were looking at what

(24:33):
I was doing in the nineties in the early two
thousands not approving of my methods.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
So well, you know what I mean. It's like everything else.
But see, you have to understand the investigations back let's
go pre paranormal reality shows.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yeah, it was first of.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
All, you had a lot less junk, you know, tradition.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
That's why I got rid of the junk because.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
Okay, and basically because you were there. Yeah, you wanted
to catch something and if you could, good, But it
wasn't the pressure of these shows to get something whatever.
So you had to have like a million cameras and
a million this. And because of course I understand it's entertainment,
I get it, but there was more for the sake
of the investigation, per se yea than when hey, something

(25:19):
something better happened, because if not, people are going to
tune out. You know it.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
Kind of right now, I'm kind of breaking in a
new co host of my show, and you know, it's
it's it's a it's she's very much into the paranormal.
She's in her own way, which is good, and it's
like I kind of have to untrain her from what

(25:43):
you're seeing. So, like we were just watching that show
and I'm like, don't those guys ever shut up because
it's not it's not for the evidence, right, And they
were having a good time, and I.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Was enjoying it too, right, Right.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
It was about if they had to perform for the
audience that was watching them, right, That's what I'm saying.
So I remember. So she just sent me a message
a little bit ago. We were in Tampa for this
conference because a few of my people I knew, were,
you know, part of this conference. So we'm like, you know,
what great day off Sunday, I should say, We went up.
We drove up. I wanted to surprise them, like I'm

(26:16):
here to support you because you know, that's what writers
and people should do, and so we randomly I mean
it was it was really the entire thing is is
not the kind of thing that you would find in
a paranormal book or or like a sexy thing. But
we put the address in for the location and it
sent us to a cemetery nowhere near where we were,

(26:39):
and so saying on my show hashtag fall the sign.
So we're like, market, we're coming back here right after
we do it right, because it was totally And so
we go to the conference, we go back to the cemetery,
and you know, we had a few odd things happen
in terms of like psychic connection type not necessarily you know,

(27:04):
evidence things which I don't look for anyway. So she
got I get to work today, you know, I've got
my lunch break, and so I'm looking the cemetery up
to see if there's any famous haunted locations attached to it,
because we do we track haunted legends and ghost stories
that the communities tell. And I can't find anything. I'm like,

(27:24):
oh my god, how a cemetery and there's nothing. There's
no ghost stories out there about it whatsoever. And so
I say to her, you know, I'm texting her, and
I say to her, I did research for like an hour.
I couldn't find any haunted legends, any ghost stories attached
to this cemetery at all. And he said, well, we
should go back and we'll be the first ones to

(27:45):
discover it. Idea, except if the exact opposite of what
I do, right, because this is an investigator mode and
not a legend tripper mode. And it's like, nope, I'm like,
that's not what we do. Like we we follow in
the footpaths or the footsteps of like people and communities.

(28:06):
So we're not looking to be the groundbreaker who discovers
a new haunting. I'm trying the story of these communities
through the ghost stories that they tell, right, And so
when I go to a location, I want there to
be a story that's well already there. I already I
know the seventeen different versions of it. And we are
trying to experience all that equipment away, trying to experience

(28:31):
what these communities are saying happen at these locations. So
will we go back to that cemetery? No, but the
day was a really fun day there.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
I mean, ask what half far back to the Great State?
How far back are you talking? Are they burials in
that one?

Speaker 3 (28:48):
The earliest ones were from the late late eighteen hundreds, Okay,
so it wasn't an old old cemetery. I mean the
so there was one it's kind of like extended to
or near it, that is called the Showman Cemetery, which
is supposed to be, they kind of sold out the cemetery,

(29:09):
like there's too much space, and so they started started
having these like he guess it discount graves for the
people who were showmen, okay, in the circuses and things
like that, and a lot of those graves are unmarked
graves and things like that.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
And so is this close to town or is it
close to Sarasota?

Speaker 3 (29:28):
Then it is it's it's in Tampa, So that way
is a little bit to give. But it wasn't they
all all of the sites that talk about it obviously
that automatically start talking about Gibson and you know what
I'm saying, like, uh, you know that's something that Okay,
well maybe we'll look back at it and go to

(29:49):
that specific one. But even now, the stories were more
people say that this place is haunted. Well, that's not
a haunted legend, that's someone something so place is haunted.
Is there a backstory? Is there a story that frequently right?
Is there something like I was talking about, like you
know the bridge, Is there something where you're supposed to

(30:10):
lay a coin on this grave and something happens Like
those are the things that I really like to sink
my teeth into a lot more because everyone has been
to Saint Augustine. Like, what am I supposed to do
with that?

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, Augustine. As far
as I'm concerned, and I'm a Floridian, it's a tourist
trap right now, right right, it's a pretty it's a
pretty tourist trap. It's a tourist trap as far as
if anybody and I've done I've done tours there. I've
done walking tours and and everything, and it's.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
Like and I'm sure that would be fun and there,
you know, everyone's welcome to the like their kind of
paranormal and it keeps the spirit of what we do alive.
But I'd rather go like what today? I think today
is the day I should have gone down near you? Okay,
to help me? Help me say the word is lamorta?

(31:00):
Am I saying it? Right? Is a lamorta?

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Is lamorta? No? I mean I'm thinking when you say that,
is there's isla Morada down in the Keys.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
Yeah, That's what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Okay, Islamorada is in the Keys. It's like halfway down
if you know how the Florida Keys is like a
string of idols. Yeah, it's about Oh, it's it's just
to right about in the middle between Key Largo and
Key West itself.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
So just like once again my New England ignorance to
like the geography south of me. Uh huh is yeah,
it goes like Miamian and the Keys right like it's
right there.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
But that's you know, there's a famous there's there's this
these haunted legends that are part of the Hurricane of
nineteen thirty five, the Labor Day hurricane, And all day
long I kept seeing posts about this is the you know,
the nicet, the.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
One, this is the one that they have has of
I want to say, it's not is it Isla Morata? No,
it's is that?

Speaker 3 (31:56):
No?

Speaker 2 (31:57):
What's the other one? No, not matns No, they have
one where they've built this huge memorial there.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, and there's a memorial in Miami
to it as well.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
A lot of bodies ended up, that's why old.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
No, let me tell you something. A good portion of
the people from that hurricane and the keys they never
found them.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
Never found and they were you know, the idea of
it was you go on that day. You know, I'm
saying like you do something to spark it. And every
year I say, I'm going to go huh. Every year
it's it's you know, I have to save up my
vacation in my sick days for Halloween time so I
can go out and you know, go do all these
adventures and speak at libraries. Someday I'm going to get

(32:37):
out there on on you know, September two and experience
what's supposed to happen on the anniversary of the storms someday.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Labor Day. There was there was the one in nineteen
twenty six. It was another one that came in this
way through Jupiter and cut across and it crossed over
Lake Okachobee yep. And back then everything out there was agricultural,
really right, right.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
And so that's the the that the nineteen twenty six one,
I believe is the reason why to this day there
are still skeletons, skeletons that pop out of all of
those bodies got washed up there, and so.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
There's but there's another version. Some people think that some
of those skeletons because they were saying that the fishermen
out there were saying that some of those skeletons, those
skulls would come up. They look like pumpkins bobbing. There
were so many of them. Yeah, So they were thinking
also that at some point the natives, this is for
a long time, thought that the lake was like like

(33:38):
a portal to the afterworld and might have been dumping
bodies out there.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
I never followed up to see.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
So, you know, then finding one of the So I
do the Haunted.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
History tour in four Okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
And one of the things we talk about is there
are all of these weird, unusual things that happened on
McGregor Boulevard here in Nimes. It's like a dead zone.
It's like the Ipour dead zone in this one section.
And part of the backstory of that is that they
laid the road down, but then they needed to make

(34:15):
I think it's called macros. They needed to make this
under part that the water would filter through Southwest Florida
right like water is going to read it, and so
they had they needed these shells and these you know,
coral anything they could find that had that like kind
of porous things water could get through see through before

(34:36):
they put the asphalt. So they couldn't find that in
downtown Fort Nyers in nineteen thirteen. And so they went
to matt Lache and Pine Island, which is Cape Coral
Conli like where I live. They crossed a Clusahatchie, they
found this island, and they started digging, kind of harvesting
all of these materials, and over the course of two

(34:57):
weeks they found one hundred and three bodies buried there
in shallow graves. Yep, be okay. And of course, nineteen
thirteen southwest Florida, they weren't stopping construction.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Right, No, no, no.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
I was like, oh, that's interesting, that's interesting. So some
of the bigger bones were sipped off to the Smithsonian
for analysis, but a lot of them were kind of
seared into the coral and the shell. And so they
just like ground like did a rough grind to make
what they wanted and laid it down on the road.
So still to this day, underneath that road, all of
those moved bodies in those bones.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Right, they just ground everything to go.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
Ground everything up and put it there.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
So let me ask them, did they ever find out
where these like was this a native settlement?

Speaker 3 (35:41):
I'm glad you asked, That's where I'm going. Yes, So
one of the things I especially when I was writing
Haunted Southwest Florida, is I wanted to discover what it
was because there's a lot of misinformation about it and
websites that kind of like copied another website, you know,
and there was a game of telephone being played and
details got changed. So I had to look at a
lot of the original nineteen thirteen nineteen fourteen newspaper articles

(36:05):
about it, right, and definitely not Calusa. So the Calusa
of the tribe here at that point, you know, early times,
they were mound people and there was a mound on
there and they found some of the skulls in the mound.
So that was the first automatic thing. Definitely not calusive,
Smithsonian said, European bones. Then the popular tale that I

(36:26):
tell on the tour is that what would happen and
this is all true, Like I found was able to
discover kind of this is that pirates would you never
wanted to bury. Like it's not like on the movies.
You didn't throw bodies overboard because that would curse the water,
right and their spirits would remain on the water, and

(36:48):
you didn't bury them. And now there are stories of
people burying people with treasure. But that was the practice
because then your your treasure would be haunted, right, and
no one wants pooky booty. So what they did is
they would find these inlets like matt Lache. They would
find these small islands, and they were bury their dead

(37:09):
in shallow graves. Then they would get the word out
to other pirates that they had done this, and other
pirates would then start using that as a cemetery for
their people so that no one was digging where you
didn't want people to be digging.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Okay, I got it.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
I'm saying it was kind of like, here's a safe zone,
here's a place where you can put it. And so
that's and everyone goes, oh, that's a good story, and
it's called Swords Points, so it makes sense that. However,
I don't feel that that's the real story. I feel
the story is years and years and years of hurricanes,

(37:47):
deaths on the water faces being washed out by other storms.
That island is pretty much a trash collector, right, and
so bodies, just like we were talking to Okuchu on
the washed up and then years of sand and all
this kind of stuff over them makes it seem as

(38:09):
if they're in shallow graves, when really it's just that
a dead body washed up or bones washed up and
the stand kind of went on top of them. And
you know, one of the things I don't get into
too much on the tour or in the new book
is the idea that right there, if you enter that
swords Point from a different angle, we have Thelusa lights,

(38:32):
which are these ghost lights that like fly through the
air almost every single night, more in summer than in winter.
But if you track where the lights actually are flying over,
they're flying over swords Point. And so even though the
backstory is that it's Calusa and the Callusive that were
killed in the battle that happened there, they're actually over

(38:53):
there where swords Point is. And so, you know, it's
all of these interesting kind of ideas having to do
with that.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
You know what, another thing sometimes people don't realize. Back then,
there would be big outbreaks of fever, of different types
of fevers, and sometimes they they would throw it there's
a ship or stuff, they would just throw bodies because
they were so afraid of contagion, right But normally, under
other circumstances, people that were or had died they would

(39:21):
bury them. But there was such a fear of contagion
that are disposed of.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
Like hey, right, and those mass graves they I mean,
can you bury anything in Florida for too long? Right?
I mean that's why we have so many graves that
have like the cement on top of them and stuff
like that. I mean, so if you can imagine that,
don't even think like what might have happened during one

(39:47):
of the hurricanes, but just a really bad storm washes
those bodies out. They hit the water, they crash upon
a rock here, a rock there, the body comes out,
or even just buried without cast It's like in mass graves.
The bodies have to go somewhere and they either go
out and they're never seen again, or they go in.
And if they go in, if they hit Pine Island,

(40:11):
someone's gonna find that body and do something about it. Right,
if it hits matt Lche, someone's gonna If it pulls
up on the shores of you know, on the other
shore of the Calusahatchie, you know, to to Fort Meyers,
they're gonna find a body. Instead, they're gonna give it
a proper burial or whatever. This little island, no one's
out there checking it for bodies, and we don't know

(40:34):
how long those products were there, so it's very easy.
It's not it's the more it's the creepier version of it, right,
And it's the one that's like can you tell this
on the tour to people who want to have like
a good time with ghosts. But it's probably the more
accurate way.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
The more accurate historically historically.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Yeah, I mean, the pirate thing makes sense, and it
totally fits in with you know, burial practices of pirates
at the time. But I tend to think more that
it was these bodies, especially after having done an entire
episode of my show on the bodies of Okachobee and
then the bodies, right, you know in some other places
that are that's very.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Sa There's another thing because you know on the East coast,
when Flagler was building the railroads that he basically he
took it all the way into the Florida Keys, right, Yeah,
which what ended it was one of the hurricanes.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
It was just a hurricane. It was the Laborty Hurricane
of thirty right.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
It was like that thing like put as a matter
of fact, Florida into an earlier depression, like than the
nineteen twenty nine market crash. But anyway, they would have
people show up from all over the country just to
work on these places. R right, and people don't understand.
Usually let's say if you would go now, let's say
to Miami. Yeah, they had a Miami cemetery. But back

(41:48):
then it's not like now. People you had to walk,
you know. So they had these workers out there that
sometimes would die from an accident or just die.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
So a lot of times they in some cases they
do what they call unofficial cemeteries, which is if nobody claimed,
you know, hey, send my send my brothers ship his
body back to uh, Massachusetts and will pay for it.
This was not like this is not like now the
Miami the main cemetery, the official cemetery was like way

(42:18):
out there. Yeah, so we're talking horse and buggy time.
You know. Sometimes they would just bury people even without
like you said, with especially without even benefit of a coffin,
just doing a winding sheet. Yeah, because hey.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
So that specific that specific storm, Uh, the WPA had
just started up, right, and so a lot of the
people who were working on on that railroad were sent
down by Roosevelt unofficial like there, it wasn't you know,
there wasn't necessarily documentation of it. It was all of
these veterans who were coming back were now part of

(42:56):
the w p A R and they were working on
the thing. And so when the really crazy thing is
the guy came through and he was on the train
and he's like, I'm gonna save as many people as
I can. And I can't remember the details, it's been
a while since I've done the show, but let's say
he had like five cars started loading people up. He

(43:18):
lost almost all of them. And then the bridge, which
the remains of the bridge are still there, the front
part fell and so he had a jacket and reverse
and he only was And so as he's doing that,
the freight cars that are full of these workers and
locals are falling into the water right Thereatny.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
Have you seen how narrow those tracks are?

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Yeah, I mean, and he's just going in reverse in
the middle of.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
A free It's incredible, right for.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
People he was able to save. There is a memorial
to him, I think in Miami of him having saved
the amount of people that he saved, because it was
not as if he's like, Okay, we've got a train
route today. He was like someone needs to go down
there in the middle of this hurricane and save these people,
and he volunteered to go do it. And out of
the however many carts he had, he only I believe

(44:10):
was able to save like one, you know, train car,
right people, And it was absolutely horrific. And so a
lot of those bodies they went into the water inside
of a train car that was open. So there are
all the bodies and so you know, there's a lot
of different ghostly legends that are attached to that place.

(44:31):
And then they started finding the bodies, just like you're saying,
they were finding the bodies and they had to I
want to say, it's someplace called Boho or Bajo.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
It's it translates from Spanish into deep Bay. Yeah, but
there's a it's an island now and now there's but
they have, as a matter of fact, they have the
remnants of the old real like you say, you look
at that, it's like real narrow even Bayaonda, that's the
one that you're talking about. Yeah, okay, And people don't

(45:04):
understand that the current that goes between those bridges between
the islands. Have you ever been here and you've seen
how swift that current is.

Speaker 3 (45:10):
I've never I've never gone on the seven mile Bridge.
I've only done the QY West Express.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
But if you go, even if you go down, you
know that stretch. You know eventually you go over the
seven mile Bridge. But there's like Channel two, channel five.
You know some are stretch. But if you ever look,
and then the reason I know is because I fished
off these bridges. Even though the water is not deep
per se, it's not the the the current is very
very swift, really swift. Like in other words, what you're

(45:38):
saying is anybody goes in that water in.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
The middle of a hurricane, in the middle of.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
The hurricane, they're god, they went out, they end up
somewhere in the gulf.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
So so I do know. They buried a whole bunch
of people in this one location. And people have reported
literally approaching this at night and just seeing people all
in a circle around where these graves were, and then
they burned a lot of them because they were now

(46:08):
working sickness that was going on exactly.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
That's because it's.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
Not like even today like during Ian when we were
getting body counts and Ian like here in southwest Florida,
what I am, like, you take that body, and you
rescued the body, the person is past and you gave
it to their family, you found where they were.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
No, no, back then, back then it.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
Was it's a frigging hurricane. We're not getting to that body.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
And people don't understand how hot it is. Right, the
body decomposes immediately.

Speaker 3 (46:41):
Right, and it's September like so here in Miami is
probably a little bit more. It was ninety three degrees. Yeah,
of course it was so Once that rain stops and
now you're dealing with the heat, they had to burn
the bodies, but I do know a lot of them
made it to one of the cemeteries actually, and where
there's the memorial you're talking.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
About, right, And a lot of times it is those
mass graves, you know that they would just put the
body that they did, and honestly, they really didn't know
who was who anymore.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
I mean, it's not the identification process would have been
nearly impossible. No, there was, you know, after five four
or five days in the sun, not catching the damage
from the storm. Not to mention, it's not as if
every person was fingerprinted, database that you go would pick
it up immediately. So no, no, it's no when people

(47:29):
say because right, they say it even as like a
joke they'll put out there, like, you know, why is
every ghost from you know, uh, the eighteen hundreds that
you don't have like you know, someone wearing a Britney
Spears shirt and part of it if you believe in
either like the mindset of a ghost being what their
mindset was in life and find the idea of finding

(47:50):
peace and can you find peace and things like that.
There were a lot harder rules back then to how
you were able to find Now people are like, man,
I've got my starbucks, I'm in peace. But there were
you know, especially in like the Civil War era and
like the late eighteen hundreds, with the rise of spiritualism,

(48:12):
there was something known as the good death, and a
lot of Americans, even if they weren't spiritualists, believed in
this idea of a good death, which is a lot
of where we get our ideas now, things like passing
the last word of wisdom onto onto to you your
family and having saying goodbye and things like that. So
if you were in that situation and there was no

(48:34):
way your body was going to be identified, and there's
no way you didn't have an opportunity for a good goodbye.
So those are the kind of ghosts that would be
able to find some kind of peace, some kind of rest,
some kind of equilibrium in the afterlife, as opposed to
someone who dies today, even if it's a horrific death,

(48:54):
we know who did it.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Mentality. Yeah, and I think that sometimes Chris, people have
a heart time understanding that we'll talk. Let's say we're
talking here one hundred years ago or something whatever. More
or more people you it was what happened to your
body as far as burial, depending of course on your religion,
but usually it was like burial and consecrated ground was important, okay,

(49:16):
even if in life you were like hmm, a piece
of work. People that that meant as a matter of fact.
That's why certain people weren't allowed to be buried in
the regular good people cemetery like suicides or where like
we're down, you know, like hey, no you can't, or
you know, if you're gonna get buried here, let's say,
now your suicide, you're gonna go on that corner over

(49:37):
there where nobody knows where.

Speaker 3 (49:39):
It was we were at that we were at that
cemetery and the person was with who's not as familiar
with cemeteries. It's like, oh my word, what is this
other cemetery? This must be the Showman cemetery. I'm like, no, man,
that's where the Jewish people are, Like, you didn't bury
you know what I'm saying, Like all these deeds tell

(50:00):
you all.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
People they were back then, they had segregation in the cemetery,
you know, like.

Speaker 4 (50:05):
Here, Yeah, being from New England, I totally got that
it was back thens. On these headstones, it was like
automatically She's like, oh okay, But.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Back then it was even a even regardless of the religion,
if you died, if you were either an immoral person
or for suicide, forget it. Chances are you weren't. And
even you'll hear you know how some families they'll have
a family plot, but they had a black sheep. They
wouldn't allow the black sheep to get buried in the
family plot. Yeah, we're gonna put you somewhere over there,

(50:37):
and you're lucky if you get a headstone. The chances
are you might not even get a headstone because we
don't want In other words, what happened with your body
and you're the grave. That's why they have all these
fancy obelisks and all this other stuff. It was important
to people. So getting back to what you were originally saying,
you know, here you are, you're talking about the hereafter
your body went out god knows where. You never had

(50:59):
a proper burial, much less than consecrated ground. You never
had prayers said over you. What you thought? Hey, like
you said, this is what I need for my eternal
peace to be complete kind of deal. Yeah, and you
kind of like you got cheated out of it.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
How's that you got cheated out of it? And that's
also why you know, there was a lot of there
was a lot of the you know, the rise of
amputees and the idea that you had parts of your
body removed in one location and then you died in
another location. And that's now why like we're just starting

(51:36):
to read the legend of Sleepy Hollow in the class, right,
okay folklore. It's a perfect way to introduce l and
blah blah blah, Right, And the whole idea is that
he lost his head and can't find peace because he's
searching for us. Regardless of whether you know really if
you've ever read the story, you know that there's no

(51:58):
such thing as the headless horsemen, and it's all him
conning the you know, conning ikobab cream, right. But the
idea was obviously a prevalent one in you know, the
seventeen hundreds. It became even more this idea, especially during
the Civil War where amputations off into World War one
world War two, this idea that your your leg was

(52:19):
chopped off in one place, you may have died in
another place. You're not whole and therefore, how could you
possibly find peace if your whole body's not there? And
that row a lot of not only hauntings, but ghost
stories that were coming out of the Victorian era as well.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
And from what I understand I'm Catholic. Some want to say,
but I know some Protestant religions is that the dead
shall rise again the second Coming of Christ. But if
what if you were missing your leg when you're supposed
to rise from your grave? It's like what, you know,
what I'm saying, Like that was the whole idea that
that until that that like when you die, yes you
were laid to rest, but really you were going to

(52:56):
rise again with a second coming of Christ. And suppose
hopefully all of you would be there.

Speaker 3 (53:02):
Right, not like how you're supposed to, you know. So
one of my favorite haunted legends in Florida takes place
in the worst town name in all of Florida. Let's
hear it Florida, Florida, literally Florida with the F chopped.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Off, and that's somebody's imagination.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
When I first published it, a friend of mine went, Chris,
I have some Pad news, like there's for an entire
chapter you spell Florida wrong. And I'm like, no, now,
anyone who's there. It's a ghost town. But I still
find people who are there, and I'm always like, wow,
I go I'm checking out their dating profile and I'm like,

(53:43):
whoa you're from. You're from Florida. It's pronounced Florida.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
I understand that, but forgets call it Florida, right.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
And so what ended up happening was that, you know,
it was called is to PoCA, and then another town
on the other side of Lake Isto, Poka, started calling
itself is to Poke and so male was getting lost,
and so the male the male woman decided just to
call it Lareda. But anyway, there was a witch. There

(54:14):
was a town witch. So you know, you're talking Protestant, Jewish, Catholic,
all these things like God can totally save your soul.
But if you want to get that rash off your butt,
you went to the witch, right And if you wanted
to make sure your crop was good, or if you
wanted to in this case, the story is a love
potion story. If you wanted a love potion, you went

(54:34):
to the herbalist. And he never called her a witch.
She was always a herbalist. And the man lonely man.
Maybe he couldn't find the dating profiles of the girls
in Lareda, and so he decided to buy a love
potion from her. And when she changed the price to
his firstborn child, he got aggravated, threw her off the

(54:57):
bridge that goes over our buckle creak, and uh, you know,
uh impaled her on a tree that was growing out
of the water. O, my god, and so he takes off.
The town finds her eventually, but they can't bury her
in the cemetery because she is an herbalist. And so

(55:19):
all of the hauntings and the curse and everything that
this town believes in stems from that one decision that,
even though she was a cherished member of the community.
Everyone loved her, everyone went to her.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
But the herbalists aka right right, which yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:40):
Okay, they couldn't. And so for years into concluding into
modern day, people would be driving on the bridge and
she would appear on the bridge, just pointing at them.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
This is the one that's thrown off of This is
the same bridge over i absol and the guy that
did that tour, did anything happen to him or no?

Speaker 3 (55:59):
So well, first you have to believe that the story
is true, but he was never No, there's no reports
of him, you know, ever coming to trial for it
or anything like that. He kind of disappears off the
face of the planet, which is odd because this is
not two hundred years ago. This story takes place in
the nineteen forties, and so yeah, pretty recent enough that

(56:23):
you could, like, you know, maybe tracks down, but you could,
you know, if a lot of people still were able
to disappear. And so as she's appearing, more and more
people are leaving town, and businesses are failing, and businesses
are failing and people are leaving town, right, and so
it's like this cycle. And so they decide that they're

(56:44):
going to dig her up because they buried her under
an oak tree, because that's kind of witchy. They dig
her up and they bury her in the next town
over right, exactly, And so dope still happens to business
are closing, people are leaving, and so they then dig
up her bones again or dig her up again, and

(57:07):
they burn her and they spread the ashes in the
next county. And then they go to her house, and
I actually have a newspaper article about the burning of
her house. They burn her house down to the ground,
scattered those ashes in the next county, and it doesn't
work the town because right, right, So regardless of whether

(57:28):
or not any of that is true or whether it's
just like because honestly, the town failed, because I always
joked that the first reason why the town failed is
that they built on Lake Istapoca, which means the place
where people die. So if you're gonna start a settles, right.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
That's a bad line, that's a bad eye.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
In reality, what happened was is that World War two hit, right,
And so imagine that three fourths of the male population
went to fight World War two. Some of those people died,
and other people were like, why would I ever go
back to Lareda, Florida, Right, And so really what you

(58:11):
have is an exodus because of you know, unfortunately some
people dying, but more people being like, why would I
ever go back to that place now that I've seen
the world. Right, But you have to make up an
excuse or you have to make up a reason why
that happens. And so this witch story kind of developed,
so we you know, but that said, people still see

(58:33):
the witch on the bridge.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
I mean, it's really all these little talents. You know,
everything was agricultural or around the centrius industry or something.
So unless that was your thing, like you said, what
is out there?

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Really?

Speaker 3 (58:44):
Yeah, I always say when people say central Florida, they
think Orlando, right, and they think Tampa and they think
it this way. I always think of Central Florida as
this way. Well, you know, and they were dependent upon agriculture,
dependent upon trains, and if you lost either of those things.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
Oh yeah, the trains, I've got people right here, real close.
But basically that's that's the Like, these little towns would
grow up around the train depots because they would be
picking up you know, either let's say, whatever they were
producing and dropping off. But like, even because the town
where I live is like only five thousand people and
even the older buildings are clustered right around, which why

(59:25):
we still have a train around the train deepest area.
This was where everybody would pick up, drop off. The
community okay, was centered the churches, everything, and of course
within walking distance. But yeah, no, this was this was
the that's like you said in that train track goes
right down, you know, angles across through the state.

Speaker 3 (59:47):
Yeah, and you know you had you had the alkaline
on one side and you had flats on the other side,
and then they'll go like this, and it was you know,
you can you can track like the alkaline. I could,
I could. I would write a book just on like
the path of the alkaline. And a really good example
of that is like, now that I've got the Southwest Floor,
I'm going back to my love, which is this book

(01:00:08):
that I've been working on for years, and I'm taking
my time. No publisher, you know, as of yet, because
i want it to be done this way and then
who'll accept it. And it's it's like one ghost story,
and to tell that ghost story, you have to tell
a whole bunch of other ghost stories, okay. And it's
really about this town called Pemberton Ferry, which pretty much

(01:00:32):
fell off the face of the map around nineteen forty five, Okay,
and yet no one remembers this town. So you have
people that I've talked to who were born in Pemberton
Ferry m h. And we're still are still alive now
who don't remember having lived in Pemberton Ferry, right, Like,
that's how crazy it is, right, And one of the

(01:00:54):
major differences is, I don't know if you've ever heard
of the town of Brooksville. Yes, of course, Brooksville is
the city, is the is the sister city, right. Pemberton
Ferry was the successful train town. Brooksville took their model
and there so they're on literally they're just separated by
a river. Different counties, but they're separated by a river.

(01:01:18):
Brooksville succeeds, Pemberton Ferry fails, it's taken over by the government.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
And that's so weird because they're right next to each other,
and we're like why.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
Literally, and Pemberton Ferry was the more successful town. And
that The interesting part is is that you know now
that is all these other different towns, Hog Island and
Bushnell and all these places that people know of kind
of sometimes in Sutner County, and then Mary Hernandez and

(01:01:47):
Hernando County is on the other side. Brooksville is considered
like this quaint, little, really haunted town, and it's got
the main Stringer House, which everyone now puts on the
list of most haunted places. And it's like these beautiful
hanging trees, like let's celebrate like where we hung people
from and people openly talk about the ghosts there. And

(01:02:11):
yet right across the Wooflakuchi, they don't talk about the
ghosts at all, like they literally I was talking to
a cop I went to Hog Island the very first
time I heard this story, and I'm talking to a
cop park ranger, a park ranger, and he's talking to
me and he's like, I don't know, have you ever

(01:02:33):
heard this story. He's like, no, I've never heard the
story of the witch that you're telling me, and blah
blah blah blah, it doesn't exist. We don't believe in
that kind of stuff here, Like, like, talk to me
for a good five minutes about why me pursuing the
story of a ghost witch in this town is weird?
And as he's leaving, he turned around and he said, oh,
I wish my grandmother was still around. She maybe could

(01:02:56):
tell you some things. She was a white witch who
spent her entire life battlings some really weird dark things
in this town, and like took off, and I'm like,
you literally just contradicted.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Every right exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
They don't talk, They don't talk about there, don't want
to talk outside of the river.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
Yeah, like whoever knows about it knows about it, but
don't share exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:03:19):
So it's taken a while for me to crack some
of these eggs of what's going on there. And it
really is the kind of story where you it really
tells the history of Florida. It tells the history of
these two communities, but also how we develop and use
ghost stories and haunted legends to protect us from things

(01:03:42):
and to explain things. And so it's that that's why
it's been a project that I've taken very slowly and meticulously.
If you could see my bedroom, and that's not an invitation,
I look like a conspiracy theorist because I've got everything,
because it's so hard to strain everything out. I've got
all the all the lions from places and all these
dry erase boards.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
But you know, what Chris. One of the things that
people don't realize this is, of course we're talking here
post Civil War, but mostly around the turn of the century.
It is like, you know, there's ten thousand islands out
on the west coast. Out there, the law was so
far removed, like in other words, your nearest law man
was like three days ride. You would end up having
a lot of outlaws. And people on these airables go

(01:04:25):
down there because they knew first of all, if they
were wanted let's say Nebraska or Colorado or wherever Texas,
they would go down there and set up a new
life because the law. Remember this is full of mosquitos,
and it's like on the other edge of the Everglades
is the west end of the Everglades. So you had

(01:04:45):
a lot of outlaws, and you know what outlaws usually
do they you know, they and people get end up
getting killed and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
I literally wrote last night. You know, the last thing
I always do is the introduction of my books. Right,
so this is a for eight to twelve year olds.
You kind of have to like, you know, right, so
reading my introduction, and I said, Florida was the place,
the place for people who didn't want to be found,
like I said it more like I was saying, like

(01:05:13):
what Florida actually was. We think it's this paradise. It's
a place for like people who didn't want to be
found and people who know and wanted in other communities,
like right, exactly, Yes, we think of once again, we
think of Florida as all around the coast, yes, and
then that fun little place in the middle with Mickey Ah,
but that is that's like so so little of what

(01:05:37):
Florida is. Florida is really all of those towns that
are just off the coast that you drive through, like
if you drive through seventeen three oh one, Like those
are even tammy Ami Trail. Yes, of course those are
you know forty one. Those are all the backbone of
haunted legends in this state.

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
Yes, right, and they built that. Let me tell that
you know that Tamami Trail, especially like west of Miami
because again like because people don't understand in Miami, for example,
Miami went dry before prohibition six years before. So by
the time prohibition, so in other words, they already had

(01:06:20):
the crime and the moonshine and the rum runners and
the people coming off the from Bimiti dropping off, which
my saying is that basically that spawns a lot of crime.
So you had a lot of murders and weird going
on way before, you know, because you always think of
al Capone and prohibition in Miami, lots of you know,
because this was a county thing. They already had this

(01:06:42):
organized well not really organized crime is the way we
see it, but a lot of crime going on because
it was a dry county. So you had a lot
of stuff like when you go on, like you said,
forty one tam Miami trail going out because they built
it basically and wait, and where.

Speaker 3 (01:06:58):
Does that lead Fort Myers?

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
Where I what Myers right? Exactly?

Speaker 3 (01:07:03):
Through Port Charlotte. It basically forty one mimics the alk
Line train line and all of that. All of those
stories and these are our coastal places like Fortners and
put to Gorda and Port Charlotte, all of their stories
when you start getting into it, are all like, oh,
wait a minute, Cuba, Miami.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
Yes, going on. You know, let me tell you something.
This being a peninsula, the state being a peninsula on
the coast and inland, and that in and of itself.
But let me I want to ask you believe it
or not. I had not heard of this till not
too long ago, the Tampa Triangle. Do you have any
what's going on with the So.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
That's so funny. Like someone yesterday Gehge is named Joshua Ginsburg,
who's a paranormal. You haven't had him on your show.
You should get him on. He was asking me the
same thing. He was like, wait a minute, you write
a lot about the Tampa Triangle, right, and so it
is essentially now my Tampa Triangle is a little bit different.
But the area of like if you think of you

(01:08:08):
know where Tampa is, and you kind of extended out
into the ocean, okay, and you include the areas of
like Tampa Safety Harbor, Paul Harder, obviously Saint Pete. There
is so much paranormal activity. Really, by first few years

(01:08:32):
of doing tripping on Legends, I had to cross that
friggin Skyway bridge way too many times because everything we
were tracking was in that area. But then it's also
crazy with egmont Key, it's crazy with UFO sightings and
things like that. So it is its own version. It

(01:08:53):
doesn't have the disappearances, but it is its own version
of thee The Bermuda Triangle only on the other coast.
Is it is extreme? No, But the phrase Tampa Triangle
sounds really cool, but it's really much more of like
a land based tons of hauntings going on in that area.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
Because I've heard also that there's like ghosts signings of
ghost cars on the on the bridge itself, and.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
So when we I'm yes, the ghost cars, but more
suicides and people off the bridge. So when we we
went to probably one of my favorite legendships of all
time in terms of like actually being out on the field,
we went to Fort de Soto, Okay, which is gotta
be like if you can imagine, you know, the fort

(01:09:41):
that time forgot, like it never was. I always call
it Fort Inconsequential, like it never did anything interesting, but
it has all these really good ghost stories. And back
in the day, because of where it was, it used
to be a deterrent. It used to be like, hey,
if you don't think you're supposed to do, we're gonna
send you to Fort de Soto.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
Like that's not okay.

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
And now it also fits in with my whole idea
that the whole area and the whole Gulf Coast is
cursed by Hernando de Soto, the Conquistador ravaged Florida, and
then you know it was the first first rep seen
of Mississippi, so it's got the name attached to it too, right,

(01:10:21):
So there is So we're at Fort de Soto and
when you're near the old hospital, which is just we're
ruins now, and you're looking out to the Tampa Bay,
you see the Skyline bridge that's on your left, and
people report seeing people jumping from the bridge, but then

(01:10:47):
also bodies coming up from the water, screaming and things
like that. And so as we're at this extremely haunted
location and we've got these binoculars, we are literally seeing
specters falling and jumping from the bridge and disappearing before
they hit the water in the daylight I'm talking about really,

(01:11:09):
and the we're like, did we just see that there
was literally just a person there and now that person's
not there? Like we were watching this from Fort de
Soto and light broad daylight right on the water it
was and it was like, I mean that that has
got to be one of the single most haunted locations

(01:11:32):
in Florida because it's just a variety of the hauntings
that happened there they've got stuff that backs it up.
There's a a flirtatious ghost fisherman who tries to hit
on girls that are fishing by themselves, and they approach them. Right.

(01:11:52):
It's the ultimate form of ghosting, right because then and
so like the joke is built in. It's not even
like that was such an easy joke to me. But
what happens is is that so so we think a
lot of people think it's the ghost of Dalton Gray,
who was a fisherman there who also worked at like
the bait shop that's by the docks, and he loved

(01:12:14):
a fish. He actually didn't get killed anywhere near there.
I'm pretty sure he got killed in Jacksonville, okay, but
somewhere else, Okay, violent murder. I think he was killed
by his father, shot in the head. That stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:12:27):
Well, when we called so we went out there. We
did a whole amazing legend trip there. When we called
afterwards a bait shop and said, k I have a
really weird question. Did a guy named Dalton Gray ever
work there? The younger woman who was on the phone

(01:12:49):
with me said, I'm supposed to say no, not no, no,
I don't know what you're talking about but I'm supposed
to say no. So it's it's gets this really excellent
combination of ghostly legend. And of course it was a quarantine.
That's like the primary ghosts it said. It was a

(01:13:11):
quarantine area. And it's one of those things where like
if you go down to the armory, just if you
if you want to teach a lesson and how to
get an EVP, just go into the armory. Like they
just done. Stop talking down there. And the interesting thing
is is that the soldiers, so the people who would

(01:13:32):
be in the armory, no one ever died there. No
one ever died of like they never shot Yeah, they
never shot their guns like that. So you know, it
could be argued that some people may have died of
sickness or friendly fire or whatever, but essentially the people

(01:13:53):
who are known to have died there are the people
who died when it was a quarantine. And yet that
armory is just you don't even need a tape recorder.
You can just sit there and like just hear things
talking to you, just see them walking through the different areas.
It's it's a pretty pretty intense place.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
Let me ask you, this is a I'm gonna I'm
going to leave the state of Florida. Do you think
about this story about the annabel Doll.

Speaker 3 (01:14:22):
Coincidence? Like total crap. I held Annabelle in my arms.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
There you go. That's see I was asking the right person.
Go ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:14:30):
Back in two thousand and three, maybe there was a
I was living in Massachusetts and I called, like, there
was a we're supposed to do something. There was a snowstorm, right,
we couldn't go. We're supposed to end up in New York.
We couldn't travel that far. And so I was like, oh,
you know, we should should go to the Warren Museum, Okay,

(01:14:51):
And so I called up Lorraine picked up. Lorraine's like,
oh yeah, you hear the guy from mass mass Crossroads.
Like she knew because there weren't a lot of us
back then, right, And I had, you know, done things
with John Zapfis and stuff like that, so I, you know,
I was known to her. And so she said, we're
going to open up the the museum just for you

(01:15:14):
and your friend to come on Sunday.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:15:17):
And so Lorraine took me on a tour through the
whole museum. Okay, And I saw Annabell and I had
read The Demonologist, So I'm like, hm, is that Annabel?
And she's like yeah, I'm like wow, She's like, oh
you know Annabell. He's like, yeah, you know, I've read,
I've heard pretty much everything that you guys are associated with.
And she's like do you want to hold her? So

(01:15:38):
all this stuff of like people like what are you
talking about? Did you take a bath in a holy water? Afterwards?
She literally was like do you want to hold well?

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
I was gonna say, you know what, I was what
she would have let you hold it if she would
have thought that something negative was going to happen, right.

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):
It was more of like and so I'm the myce.
I've written thirteen books, i appear on radio shows, I've
been on television show. The only thing that my students
are impressed with is that I've held both Annabel and
Robert and that is and Robert Thedolf from you know,
from Key West. They don't care about it, and they're
not impressed by anything else. It's just that. So I

(01:16:17):
really think because obviously as soon as that Annabel stuff
started hitting, people were sending it to me incessantly, and
I'm like, do I believe in I literally have a
book called Haunted Objects. So I believe in curses and
I believe in haunted objects and their ability to influence things.
It just seems ridiculously fortuitous for Annabel to be causing

(01:16:43):
such devastation in like the opening days of a new
Warren movie coming out, like it just.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
They're taking her now, I think, to show off show
her in Maine because I believe that the the museum
was bought over by new owners. Right when I.

Speaker 3 (01:17:00):
Understand like a YouTube or something like that, and everyone's
pretty much like, oh my word, and and I'm like, yeah, okay,
I get it, Like you know, this is this is
what people do. And I'm a little weird now, like dude,
you're you're having their house be a better breakfast, Like
that's weird, Like you're renting their house out for investigations.

(01:17:20):
But I really think like if you mix the buying
of the house or the selling of the house, how
we want to see it. Him turning that new business,
the new movie coming out, and now oh my word,
like she's associated with all of this weird stuff that's
going on. Well, it was like a that sounds like
marketing to me and not you know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
Well, what happened to Dan Rivera and then this and
then all of a sudden, it's like everything like snowballed.

Speaker 3 (01:17:46):
Yeah, I get you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
And it's like I was like, well, you know what
this could happened to anybody? You know what?

Speaker 3 (01:17:52):
Well, yeah, I think I think what built it up?
Is it? I mean if you if I were to,
if I were to write a plot, it would the
doll would disappear and then like and then storms are
something bad would hit the place that she had been,
and then it would escalate, right Like, So the fact
that it escalates like that, it sounds more like a
movie plot than it does reality, right, Because what I

(01:18:16):
always say is when I get information from a from somebody,
like if someone is telling me, like back in the day,
specially what I was investigating. If someone tells me their
ghost story, someone tells me their personal experience, they already
know the climax, right, They know the scariest thing that
has happened to them in their house or whatever it is,

(01:18:37):
and they then go back and see these little footprints
that led up to it. And so every ghost story
that's told to me by people, they don't want it
to be a ghost story there's telling me in their experience,
but it becomes a ghost story because they say, you know,
the phrase or phrases like it, like, but we didn't

(01:18:59):
make much of it at the time.

Speaker 2 (01:19:01):
Well, and this right, Sometimes when things are happening, which
by the way, sometimes is a hallmark of people that
it's a true haunting that build. Now everybody thinks it's like, oh,
but back then, sometimes things are happening and people like
are not sure, like they know something's weird or something,
but they don't go there immediately to the paranormal right away.

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):
That's what I'm saying, Like so many of those stories
are it's like, well, we came home and the door
was unlocked, and it's like, if you don't know what
would eventually be the climax, you wouldn't even remember the
fact that the door was unlocked. It's you start piecing
things together and.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
Then as things start happening like over you know, and
it's like, okay, this is too much ignored by the way.
Let me, I'm gonna this is my this is my
Robert moment. Oh this is me. In two thousand and
eight with Robert, we were doing investigation. Oh my god,
what's the name out of the group have a Fort Lauderdale.
They were TAPS associated. They ask us, there's a there's

(01:19:56):
a very old museum. It used to be something else
down in Key West, and we were doing it with
Robert because you know that the owner was over there
at the Automan house in Key West.

Speaker 3 (01:20:06):
The Martello Museum or whatever it is.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
The yes, the Martello the towers, you know, and that's
where they I don't know if they still have them there.

Speaker 3 (01:20:15):
They do. The the the thing is is right around
Ian mm hmm. And the two things are not related.
On the fact that I know, I was in a
hotel room because I didn't have a house, and we
were watching the new documentary about Robert the doll. Around
that time, a new company took over, and not only

(01:20:38):
did they dicuously up the prices of the tour, yes,
but they now have like and for an extra twice
as much money. You can spend an hour with Robert alone,
or you can like the like. It's the it's become
a real even more of a business. But the documentary,

(01:20:58):
which happened right after the new people bought it, right,
what was really disturbing about it was the backstory started
to change, so after years of it might have been this,
might have been this now One of the news stories
that they tell is that affair that the father may
have been having right actually fathered a child, a young

(01:21:23):
girl really, and the young girl died of yellow fever
because the father wouldn't acknowledge that he had slept with
the housekeeper and that this was his child. And it's
the little girl or it's a little boy. I can't remember,
is now what is inside the doll? Which I'm like, dude,
I've been studying Robert for twenty years. I ain't never

(01:21:45):
heard that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:46):
Well, not so long. I'm racking my brain. Who I
spoke to that told me that they had X rayed
or scanned I don't know what they used, Robert, and
they have found bones in them, like in other words,
like you know how rich the original or was that
the servant, which was an islander, had supposedly fashioned the
doll for for for the the young you know, when

(01:22:09):
he was young, and that who was it? Oh, mar Len, God,
this was not too long ago, was saying that they
had scanned it and they had found some type of
like that's awesome, And I was like, what I go yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:22:25):
I mean, you know, the story goes with the grandfather
brought it back from Europe, but the good but that's
no fun, like you know, content Grandpa's are no fun.
And so the going story was either she had been
treated reading really poorly. It had been a bit of
voodoo priestess and had cursed the doll or and this

(01:22:48):
is kind of where the extension happens. She had been
having an affair with the father and he broke it off,
and so she cursed the doll to get back at him.
And that's for decades, that was the story. There was
never another child, There was never a sickness and stuff
like that. But you know, and and of course everything
about that like tilted and moved on the fact that

(01:23:14):
a psychic had come in and found that out.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):
But you know what, that's very similar to you know
what you know the myrtles out in Francisville's in Louisiana.
If you do the research there, there was no you
know how they say that the servant that she either
she was having an affair with the with the homeowner,
she got caught listened that you know, when you go

(01:23:38):
down and you do the research on the background and
even on the timing, it's totally off. So yeah, that servant,
that servant.

Speaker 3 (01:23:44):
The same thing with like the conjuring house. Like these,
you know, these themes pop up, and that's as a folklorist.
I love playing with those themes and seeing how they
play out. And people often say to me, so are
you saying, Like, even if you're listening to this interview,
night might say like, well, Chris does I mean you
don't believe it goes So it's like, well, do has
nothing to do with the other? Yeah. I always look

(01:24:06):
at what is the what is the possibility that the
backstory is true? And then more importantly, why has that
backstory caught on? What about us needs that? And that
has allowed that kind of story to perpetuate.

Speaker 2 (01:24:22):
So well, let me tell you a quick story about
the team members. That was always a freelance investigator, but
I worked with a foundation that did the whole state
of Florida. So but the team that was basically doing
the thing that we stayed overnight there at the She
was this lady and she's nice, but all of a
sudden she's you know, this thing with a Robert and
she says, you know, you can't cross in front of

(01:24:43):
him unless you ask permission.

Speaker 3 (01:24:45):
I said, what, it's not on the wall.

Speaker 2 (01:24:48):
And I'm like, what are you talking about? She goes, no, no, no,
if you're going to cross that in front you know
you saw he's in that glass case. Yeah, if you
want to cross in front of him, you asked to
ask permission. I'm like, uh no, She's like no because
and by the way, she was serious, she was serious
about this and picture. And I said to myself, you're
the team leader right now because I agreed to come

(01:25:12):
along with this. But lady, lady, you're no investigator.

Speaker 3 (01:25:16):
If you if you look at that picture again, if
you put that picture up, anyone who doesn't know Robert,
all of that paper that you see behind him are
people who have broken Robert's rules, who think that they
are cursed because they didn't do it. Now, crossing in
front of him is not one of Robert's rules.

Speaker 2 (01:25:33):
Well, honestly, I had I had never heard of that.
When she said, I said, what, what what are you
talking about?

Speaker 3 (01:25:40):
Right? I mean it's you have to say hello and
goodbye because.

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
But it was basically you had to cowtow.

Speaker 3 (01:25:46):
To the Yeah the picture again, show show the picture.
I'm gonna do that again.

Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
But let me show you also something that was that
was really all right, So okay, bring it up big,
come on, here we go. That's as because it's gonna go.
Hold on, let me see.

Speaker 3 (01:26:07):
People picture all of those papers that be that are
behind him and all around him. Those are letters from
people who broke Robert's rules, who have to who wrote
a letter to get the curse taken off of them
because they violated the way that you're supposed to treat Robert.
So and by the way, those aren't permanent letters like

(01:26:29):
those letters that shifted in and out all the time
because new people pissed Robert off.

Speaker 2 (01:26:35):
Okay, but do you want me to tell you what
really does? And I don't know if that because remember
this is almost twenty years ago. This was in two
thousand and eight when when I was there. You see
this right here back here, yeah, that right there, Okay,
to the side of it. You know how when you
go to that to that museum has like little you know,
basically little rooms that are open air you know, where

(01:26:57):
they showed.

Speaker 3 (01:26:58):
Like yeah, way where they show yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:00):
Off to the left of it is a display they
have for the Sacred Heart convent and hospital because you know,
the nuns that were there were the ones that opened
up the hospital and they would take care of them
and all that they had, like some of that you know,
those wicker wheelchairs. You know that this is the stuff

(01:27:21):
that was there. Was Holy smokes, that stuff was. I
was like, forget Robert that right there, that whole thing
that they had from artifacts from the hospital, the Sacred Heart.

Speaker 3 (01:27:35):
It was like what air. Yeah, I'm a firm believer
that there that that neither none of the backstories are
really true, and that it's much more that Gene became
so obsessed with the doll himself that he created some
kind of tulpa. And I don't know if that energy

(01:27:56):
still exists. And I think that you know, Florida needs
Robert to be cursed and so otherwise otherwise creepy doll
in a museum, you know what I'm saying. Like, and
so I think especially a lot of those a lot
I think a lot of the stories of Robert are

(01:28:19):
one hundred true or you know, realistically, like you know,
relatively true, and then it's the cursed stuff is maybe
not so much. Now that being said, I was able
to publish like my third book because someone had pissed
Robert off, and and almost immediately after having done that

(01:28:45):
and been really above and beyond disrespectful Robert, he got
indiged for fraud and the publisher was like, we can't
have this guy write the book. So I kid you not.
And then the joke that I always say is that
I've seen Robert. I've loved two women passionately in my life,

(01:29:08):
and I lost both of them after having seen Robert.
Coincidence or I am a bad dater, I don't know,
but like, so wait to say.

Speaker 2 (01:29:18):
I'm like, ah, so is it a coincidence? You know?

Speaker 3 (01:29:24):
One of them? I was writing about Robert for Haunted Objects,
and so we got on the tour for free. I
talked them into getting us on the tour for free.
I'm like, I'm writing about it. I write for Ghost Village,
which was a big thing at that time. Yes, I
know about and so you know, He's like okay, and
so they take us on the tour and we got
there for free, and I got to see Robert and

(01:29:46):
I wrote about it Haunted Objects and then you know,
come February or whatever it is, February or April, March,
we go to do our taxes, okay. And we had
gone down there for my tenth winning Universe. We went
to go do our taxes and the guy was like, hey,
you know, if you wrote a book while you were
down there, you can write off that entire trip. And

(01:30:08):
you're like, hey, I'm like romantic, but the romantic parts.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):
Over, like like okay, sure.

Speaker 3 (01:30:16):
And then the other time was when we had gone
down there. I'd gone down with the woman I absolutely love,
and we had knocking down there for she was my
original host of tripping on Legends, but we hadn't been
We weren't don't going down there for ghostly reasons. It
was like a work trip for her. They were, you know,
bringing everyone down to Key West to celebrate Christmas. And

(01:30:40):
I was like, all right, so you know, we're not
going to do any ghost stuff and she was like,
what are you talking about? We have to and we
ended up we did an amazing episode on the Lighthouse.
But she at some point was like, hey, let's go
to the Artist's House. And so you went to the

(01:31:00):
Artist's House, which back then was not advertising itself as
a haunted bed and breakfast. It was like the exact
opposite was separating itself from Robert at that time, and
he talked. We pretended we were a couple. Originally, pretend
we were a couple getting married. We reception there. Eventually we
talked ourselves. We finally, after like two hours, the guy

(01:31:23):
let us go into the attic where Robert had been kept.
Oh wow, we were he said, we were the first
people to go into that attic that either weren't on
a film crew okay, or didn't work in the house
itself since Robert had left. And yeah, we broke up

(01:31:44):
a few months later, So coincidence. I don't know. God
saw Robert divorce, saw Robert lost a woman. I love,
curse you, Robert and your curse.

Speaker 2 (01:31:54):
So you're you're laying it's by the way he.

Speaker 3 (01:31:58):
Has all him, I'm perfect. Got to be him.

Speaker 2 (01:32:00):
It's got to be him, right. This is the This
is the thing about from the convent. I just took
that they have the convent history. I'm telling you, like
I said, I don't know if that display is still
there or not.

Speaker 3 (01:32:12):
I mean, if you're talking about in the spectrum of
spooky and scary things, how far away is haunted dolls
from nuns? Anyway? I mean, there's.

Speaker 2 (01:32:22):
Nothing that it's it's like, you know what the thing is.
They they've been they had been there a long time
there and I want to say these artifacts, I wasn't
sure you know what they were, because remember they were
the ones that tended to people that with what we
were talking about the fevers, remember, topical climate down there, hurricanes,

(01:32:43):
you know everything, they were the ones that and you
know what I call spiritual turbulence that even if it's
not the nuns themselves, maybe some of the objects that
were there in that display.

Speaker 3 (01:32:57):
You know. That's kind of the story of the lighthouse too,
is like those quarantine areas and stuff like that. And
wherever it's called Fort Thomas or Fort Zachary, I can't remember.
I know Zachary Thomas, like that really really Zachary or
Zachary or Zachary That was again.

Speaker 2 (01:33:12):
Now I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to see if
if you've heard anything about this, and this has to
do a little bit. It's kind of creepy, but hey,
I feel like I'm being tested here, Like no, no,
you I'm enjoying talking to somebody that he's there in Florida.
And when I talk about things that they don't.

Speaker 3 (01:33:31):
Go what what what? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:33:34):
Okay, hold on, Like you knew about Robert. I talked
to you about Robert.

Speaker 3 (01:33:37):
The dall exactly did you talked about the Tampa Triangle too? Why?

Speaker 2 (01:33:41):
You know? And you know a lot of people know
about Robert the Doll, like what you normally see out
there about Robert the Doll, like the general.

Speaker 3 (01:33:50):
It's funny because I, like, I said, do the tour,
and this kid came on. He had to be like
twenty three, twenty four, and he was wearing a he
was I know exactly what it is, sister, you know
what that is. I do know what that is.

Speaker 2 (01:34:06):
Come on, come on, story first.

Speaker 3 (01:34:10):
So he was wearing a he was wearing a Chucky
shirt and and I was like, I love your shirt,
and I said, Chucky not inspired by Robert the Doll.
And you would have thought I just made fun of
that kid's mom. Like he was specifically wearing the shirt
because of like Robert the Doll and stuff. I'm like,
sorry to break it to you. Speaking of love and yes,

(01:34:36):
this is the guy who mombified the woman he loved
and like slept with her, and like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:34:44):
It's really funny because in that display that they have.
They have like a they've done like a life size
cardboard cutout of him, and they have it like there
was a love story. And I'm looking at like love story.
This was no love story. This guy was a.

Speaker 3 (01:34:58):
Creep creepy it's doctor something right like doctor.

Speaker 2 (01:35:05):
Yeah he was. He was supposedly what he would do
is like here's I think I want to say, was Austrian.
I believe German. My mom was positively was Austrian. And
he was working at the hospital giving X ray supposedly
when he met her, which you know she had uh
TV consumption, all right, you know that all her family,
all of them, all of them ended up dying of tuberculosis.

Speaker 3 (01:35:27):
As did most families.

Speaker 2 (01:35:29):
Yes, right, because of the close But the thing is,
nobody realizes that this guy, he's coming to the family
and he's pretending to be a good guy. Then behind
their back he steals her corpse.

Speaker 3 (01:35:40):
Man And I believe I believe he is still buried
in the Key West Cemetery.

Speaker 2 (01:35:48):
No, he's in Zephyr Hills. He moved to sepher Hills.

Speaker 3 (01:35:51):
So that's buried in the.

Speaker 2 (01:35:53):
They what they did was because see what happened was
he he steals her body. Okay, does that great mummifying
thing there. Basically, since he had some type of medical knowledge,
he kind of like mummified her in a way, and
he kept her in the bed, and you know he.

Speaker 3 (01:36:10):
Had oh yeah, it's it's a crazy story.

Speaker 2 (01:36:12):
He had nicophelia, folks, you know talking about right. So,
but finally somebody kept whispering to her sister. Hey, first
he kept her there was you know, one of those
planes that layd on the water. And then he took
her to his home. Yeah, somehow or other, a couple
of years went by and people were telling her her sister, hey,

(01:36:34):
you know that doctor so and so were something. And
finally the sister, I guess heard one too many rumors
about it. And because what happened was he even gave
the money for her to be buried. He was like
all generous with the family. And finally she confronted him
and found found her in there. You know, her sister
all dressed up with address. So they finally took him

(01:36:59):
and they buried her in secret someone in Key West Cemetery.
Her and the sexton for the cemetery. But they were
so scared of this guy. He was upset. I think weird,
a weird guy.

Speaker 3 (01:37:12):
When we went there. When we went there in twenty
seventeen eighteen, it had it was on the heels of Irma,
which I always feel is like the forgotten hurricane. Right,
It's like Irma, like was.

Speaker 2 (01:37:29):
Got my electricity for a week?

Speaker 3 (01:37:31):
I haven't, Yeah, you know what I'm saying, Like I was,
I didn't. I was living at my school, working working
at essentially a shelter, and didn't have any power in
my own house. And so we had we had gone
there and they had key West and so so now
it's December, so like two months later and we're like, wow,
this place is really picked up, like it really doesn't

(01:37:53):
even look like the hurricane hit here. And then you'd
look down an alleyway and you'd see all the trash
like piled up and like else right, and then the
cemetery was like they just it was just destroyed. And
so one of the legends or urban legends or stories
that we were being told was that there was a

(01:38:13):
grave that had cracked in half mm hmm, and the
marker was not there, and no one could remember whether
the marker was there and had been destroyed or blown
away or like gray or not, but there wasn't and
that that was her grave.

Speaker 2 (01:38:30):
Well, no, the the original grave. You know how when
you go to key West Cemetery Hill they have the
above the ground you know the Yeah, okay, her original
one that he helped pay for. What a generous old guy, right,
It was like that. But after they they took the
body away from him, what it was left of her
that he had been basically living with her, They they

(01:38:55):
were afraid, so they buried it, like I guess somewhere
like unknown like that. Nobody could ever tell what it was,
did you know that the day see, because back then
technically it was just a dead body. So the worst
they could do was tell him, you got a leak,
key West, You're too weird even for us. But on
the day that he's leaving, explosion goes off. This guy

(01:39:17):
was one of these guys like I'm going to have
the last word on this. Yeah, which, by the way,
you know, he was married on along and his wife
and daughter lived in Zephyr Hills.

Speaker 3 (01:39:27):
And which Zephyr Hills it's a little weird place, so.

Speaker 2 (01:39:30):
Right, but but I'm saying he had but this guy
was very intelligent but very obsessed. For lack of a
better word, he's a very scary guy. Yeah, that's that's
believe it or not. When people say, oh nicophilia, Yeah,
that's that's what you call it. This was not really
true love. This is that's pretty Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:39:53):
I was gonna tack a joke about like, hey, let's
not judge him, but yeah, like you can pretty much
judge him.

Speaker 2 (01:39:57):
So well, no, I'm come on, like I remember that
I was standing at that thing and they have this
big cutout of them and this is the true love
And I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:40:08):
Like, because it's one of those great stories of Key West.

Speaker 2 (01:40:12):
Yeah, of course, but yeah, he uh he uh. He
was a very unusual person.

Speaker 3 (01:40:19):
I think nice definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:40:21):
So yeah, that talk about grave robbing, you know that
kind of deal.

Speaker 3 (01:40:25):
Right, I think that goes beyond grave robbing. That's like
more like grave loving.

Speaker 2 (01:40:30):
So anyway, that could go in a lot of different ways.
But but yeah, the the yeah, there's you know, people
sometimes do unusual stuff and that's one of them. But yeah,
hey West is don't for that. Elena the Oils.

Speaker 3 (01:40:46):
And it's like they celebrate it, like you were saying,
they have that cutout, they celebrate like these odd parts
of it that just go like, well, that's what happens
on the island, you know, And so it's kind.

Speaker 2 (01:40:56):
Of oh no, you know, everybody thinks that sometimes Key West. No,
Key West has has been unusual for a long long
it has. It's had its cast of characters.

Speaker 3 (01:41:08):
It definitely has. I do have to get going, though.

Speaker 2 (01:41:12):
Yes, of course, I'm sorry. It's been great.

Speaker 3 (01:41:14):
You have to apologize. It's just, you know, it's been.

Speaker 2 (01:41:17):
Great to talk to you. So what is your book?
From the podcast listeners? What's your website?

Speaker 3 (01:41:23):
You know, the best thing is, you know, my website
is tripping on Legends dot com. Okay, but really, if
you want to get what's going on, what's updated much
more often is the Facebook page, So Facebook, you know
backslash tripping on Legends, or the Instagram is spooky Tripping okay.
And and if you are like one of my students,
all you have to do is type in Christopher Balzano

(01:41:44):
and you get plenty of creepy pictures of me that
they like to share with each other, and you can
just kind of follow that to anything you're looking for.

Speaker 2 (01:41:53):
You you were working on a book, what's the next
book that you've got.

Speaker 3 (01:41:57):
It's called the Swamp, which in the town that was myth.
That's the book that i'm that's the book that I'm
currently focusing my attention back to. Okay, and it's the
subtitle is a ghost Story interrupted by folklore in that.

Speaker 2 (01:42:12):
This is the one about Lareda.

Speaker 3 (01:42:15):
No, no, that's Lareda is in uh it's that's in
my countent, southwest Florida. And Okay, so there's the if
you're looking for a book about your area, I might
have crossed it with one of mine if you're in Florida.
So okay, So when you say what am I working, like,
I don't know what am I working on now? Like

(01:42:35):
what am I doing? So just trying to get the
podcast back up and running because as you know, if
you stop doing it for a while, yes lose momentum.
And so absolutely I'm trying to get that book that
back up and like you know, be much more casual
with getting the books out.

Speaker 2 (01:42:51):
Well, let me know, let me know when you got
your podcast up and running.

Speaker 3 (01:42:54):
Okay, okay, episode this weekend, So episode where I think
we're on ye, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:43:02):
You got it for sure? All right, Hey, Chris, thank
you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:43:05):
Thank you very much for having me on.

Speaker 2 (01:43:07):
Take Care you too.

Speaker 3 (01:43:14):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:43:15):
I mean, it doesn't realize that. I love talking to
people who, like I said, like you know more than
what they write the books about. And especially you know
when you're local to an area and you know, you know,
like what's the horrible you were like the inside scoop
or you know beyond let's say what the books have
written about. You like talking to somebody that's like, hey,
I get it, I heard about that. I know what

(01:43:35):
that is. And by the way, what we were talking
about Robert deadall that. You know, it's the the well,
what do you want to call it, superstition or the
stories have evolved as time goes by that if you
kind of look at the original but curse if you
want to call it that, it's not what it is now.
It's like taking on a life of its own. Like
I said, I pretty much when I was there, this

(01:43:59):
was two thousand. You know, the team leader she's telling me, no,
you can't cross in front. I remember she did something
like I was about to cross because we were there.
We were we set up that night inside the museum
and this thing is like kind of that that glass,
uh display kind of was in the way I mean
it's in other words, you have to cross to go

(01:44:21):
back and forth in that area. You have to cross
in front of it. It's not like hidden away or
in a corner. It's not. And so I remember one
time she goes, wait, what are you doing? I was like,
what what she goes? Have you asked this permission? I'm like,
ask who what she goes? You know, you can't cross
in front of Robert and not ask his permission. And

(01:44:42):
I looked that, I swear. I looked at her face
and it's not she's she's joking with me, right, And
I looked at her and her face was like serious.
I was like, I've never heard of this. No you
can't because its not like he was saying bad luck,
all these bad things happened to you. And I'm like,
uh now, I'm not going to stop and ask the

(01:45:02):
doubt for permission, because, like I said, this is walkway
back and forth if you're trying to conduct a paranormal investigation.
But I don't know it. It kind of like, how's
this these the subservience, for lack of a better word,
is like, hmm, you know you're not investigating honestly, and

(01:45:22):
I tell everybody I never And by the way, that
doesn't mean anything because sometimes objects have things and then
they lose them temporarily or forever. Maybe at one time,
like he was saying that he had the Annabelle, he
was he held the Annabelle doll, all right, that the

(01:45:43):
Warrens basically they gave him permission to hold the annabel doll.
And nothing happened. It was the same thing. It was like,
I don't get anything off of this, like nothing, there's
nothing like that, even a blip. But like I said,
that convent stuff that was right next there's they were
like alcos and then they would put up these uh

(01:46:05):
information about historical stuff there in Key West, and part
of it was the thing about the convent. And like
I said, they had like some of the medical stuff
they had from the hospital, from the original hospital. I
was like, well, whatever's coming off of that? That right
there was like mm mmm mmmmm. And it wasn't can

(01:46:26):
I say, it wasn't a bad like malevolent feeling, but
it was like there was something there that had some
type of attachment, if not more than one thing, you know,
And I don't know what it was, but every time
you would pass in front of it, it was like, ah,
there's some and you know there's from Robert. It was

(01:46:48):
like no, not getting anything, not getting anything, but yeah,
you know and again you know some And I've noticed
it as I've gone to a lot of historical places,
especially ones that some historical place, once upon a time
they may they may, I want to underline that word,
they may have had some type of manifestations, whether it

(01:47:09):
was residual or intelligence, and at some point whatever was
there is gone. And some people say, well, how can
that happen? I'll say, and I'll tell you how you
can have And I know that there's psychics out there
that do this for I know that's for a fact.
They're psychics that will go into some of these historical

(01:47:30):
places and act like they're part of the tour group,
and they will cross over anybody that's there that's willing
to go, and nobody's all the wiser, and all of
a sudden, what was there is gone, it's gone. And
they don't do it like they don't do the crossing over,
you know, when they've got cameras going on or anything

(01:47:50):
like that. They know what they're doing and they yeah,
and let's face it, not all the time, but a
lot of these historical places, especially if you go on
a tour, let's say, and even on a weekday it's
kind of slow. You might be the only one of
one person or two people. There might not be anybody

(01:48:13):
out there. You might be all by yourself. In other words,
that it would be easy for if you if you're
a person, a psychic medium, somebody that knows what they're doing,
that's obviously not they're the facilitizensationalism of a of a
show to cross trust whatever spirit is there. But there's

(01:48:37):
always a butt in there somewhere, you know, if you've
got some type of venue or museum or house or
whatever that's making money off tours, you know, the docents
or the people, the guides, they might themselves might say, hey,
something feels different, I don't feel the that prickle up

(01:49:00):
the spine anymore. But hey, they're not going to say
anything because people expect there and you know, get primed
believing it's haunted, and but little do they know that
whatever was there, if there was something there to begin with,
it is gone. That's what I'm saying, a lot of
historical places, and then there's the others. I want to

(01:49:20):
say that at some point these of course, we're talking
intelligent hauntings as well, and I'm not sure exactly how
it happens, but it happens that spirit that was trapped
there for whatever reason, whatever reason is there, maybe vengeance,
you know, the typical things that human beings get worked

(01:49:43):
up about. Love, revenge, desire, hate, you know, or the
or hey, somebody killed me, one of the something somehow
or other. It gets resolved, you know, whether something that whatever,
If you want to think like of a ball and
chain around their leg, spiritual like I'm talking about here

(01:50:06):
metaphorically is gone. Whatever was binding them to stay there
is like something in their brain clicks that says, it
doesn't matter anymore. I don't need that anymore. Whatever was
there doesn't matter, and they're gone. They're gone because whatever
was anchoring there they doesn't doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't

(01:50:27):
If you don't care about something, it can't do much
to you. It's only when people get caught up, you know,
you'll hear these stories about especially some of these old
places where you'll have let's say, either the old or
the one that built it, or somebody that lived there
a long time and they have this possession, you know,

(01:50:48):
and of course this depends on the personality, but you know,
this ownership kind of mentality about the premises or the
the or even the grounds sometime and they still feel
about it even if they're not they don't have a
human body, but that that was like a driving facet

(01:51:09):
of their personality. They still there there, that's that's them.
That's why they're there because this is my place. A
lot of different and at some points sometimes there's like
they realize it doesn't matter, I don't need this, you know,
like they they're out. What was what was keeping them

(01:51:30):
tied there? It's not there anymore. So again, you know,
the some of these historical places, like I said, some
of them still have stuff going on. A lot of
them it's gone if there was something to begin with. Now,

(01:51:52):
I will say this. In some cases, some of these
houses I've noticed I'm talking to here, historical places, they
will have brought in Sometimes they bring in pieces of
furniture or memorobilia because they're trying to recreate the look
that this place had originally, especially if they're going to

(01:52:15):
do tours. Okay, and sometimes you know, sometimes they do
have the original stuff. Sometimes they don't, depends on what's
gone on in the years into intervening years. Now, I
will say this, sometimes when they do bring in memorobilia, furniture, dresses,
you name it, just to dress up the place because
they're going to do a tour. They want to make

(01:52:35):
it look like it did when the eighteen nineties, for example,
every once in a while they do have a piece
of whatever fill in the blink that does have an attachment,
all right. In other words, whatever is there is not
part of the original house. It came in hitchhike on
something that was brought in there, all right. And if

(01:52:58):
this object or whatever it is, obviously it was brought
into tie in historically accurate to let's say the time period.
That's why, for example, let's say let's say the ghost
that was seen there was the lady of the house,
and she was the Victorian lady or turn of the
sentry with the high neck thing and the poofy hair

(01:53:21):
you know, at the top. And maybe she was never
there to begin with, or she moved along. But then
they bring in a piece of anything, it can even
be a dress, okay, from that time period, because Remember
they're trying to rebuild the image, and there's an attachment.
There might be an attachment of a lady that looks

(01:53:42):
just like the one that was supposed to be there,
because what's being brought in is from that time period, right,
So sometimes what you're seeing is not even the original
whatever was there. If there was something there, this is
something that's come in with with then just things like that,

(01:54:02):
the same thing. You know, sometimes you'll get ghosts that
become attached to It's not the place, it's the thing,
a piece of jewelry, it's even dresses. I mean things
like that, you know. In other words, it's not the
house was not their thing, it was that object. But

(01:54:23):
I was fascinated when he toldt said that thing about
the doll about Annabel, which of course everybody knows that
the real Annabel is just a raggedy ann type dollars.
The most Sinoki was looking doll that there is, I mean,
the least scary, and they had to redo a version,
which of course is really scary for the movies because

(01:54:44):
I believe the manufactures of raggedy ann too. I said, hey,
you know, you're not gonna ruin this doll by putting
it in these movies, which is taken off on its own.
You know, you're gonna have to come up with your
own version. And I'm sure they didn't mind, because of
course the movie that they the doll that's in the
movies has got compare that to a Raggedy Ann Dolls like, oh,
the Raggedy Ann doll doesn't do anything. So there you go,

(01:55:06):
you know, because I know that I was recently reading
There's you know, like I said that they're gonna take
the doll to Maine and they're gonna show it and
basically it's gonna go on tour. They're going to do
the museum, and of course because there's another contrary movie
coming out, and you know, that's why I'm saying sometimes
and here, you know, here Christopher saying, look, you know,

(01:55:28):
I held this doll given to be by the rain
warrant to hold, and it was okay. And I guarantee
you I don't I never knew her personally, but she
comes across like I don't think she would ever have
given an object to somebody to hold. There was some
danger of them, of it doing something to them kind
of deal. So yeah, it goes to show you that

(01:55:50):
you just never know about some of these, you know,
some of these uh, like I said, objects and you
know what and objects just like houses the same thing.
You could have an object that has an attachment and

(01:56:10):
everybody's like, oh, you know, watch out. And then at
some point in time, unbeknownst to everybody, nobody can quite
figure out when or how whatever was there becomes unattached.
And the next thing, you know, guess what, what whoever

(01:56:35):
was getting the vibe off of it, it's not there.
And here's my last picture of me and Key West. Okay,
like I said, this was me in two thousand and eight. Okay,
this is outside the Key West Cemetery. I was like, nah,
I think that. I want to say that was like
the next day after the museum stuff. And yeah, there's

(01:56:59):
a lot of interesting stories there in the Key West Cemetery.
But yeah, they've had their you know, they're run ins
with let's say, pirates, hurricanes, fever, epidemics, you name it,
you name it. You know, like all these places, believe
it or not. Along Florida, I'm going to say this
is just because it's got those coasts. You had a

(01:57:22):
lot of how can I say, you know, nefarious things
from running, smuggling, all those things always happened all the time.
They even had there's a portion of the keys also
where they had wreckords, you know, where they would wreck
the ships on purpose at night. This is before they
were able to actually put up some lighthouses where there's

(01:57:45):
people that they would wreck the you know, bring in
a ship, get it wrecked, and a lot of times
they would even kill anybody was on the ship, just
like no witnesses kind of deal and take whatever was
on the ship. You know, if they were usually if
the ship was coming into like Florida, maybe they were

(01:58:05):
gonna go up the coast, maybe up to Charleston or
maybe some other port on the East coast. Nine times
out of ten they were loaded. They were loaded with
goods of some type, all right. So yeah, there's a
lot of exciting things that happened out there. So anyway, guys,
I hope you liked this interview with Christopher Balzano. I'm
going to put a link to his website on the
credit to the show, so make sure to check it

(01:58:29):
out and don't forget to sign up for my newsletter.
You go to mppelviser dot com or Miami gos Chronicles
dot com either one. You can sign up for the newsletter.
And again I've got links to everything, all the shows,
all the podcasts. But I am on all the major
podcast platforms. You know, whether it's Stories of the Supernatural, Supernatural, Storytime,

(01:58:51):
Nice Shade, Diary, Earie News, Stranger than Fiction stories, whatever
the case, you're gonna find me. You're gonna find me,
or look for MP Pelacer. And again, I've got I
am gonna do my Halloween show. I just gotta. I'm
tossing around some ideas of what I want to do
it about. I'm I'm there, I'm swirling it in my
head and uh, but yeah, we've got uh we're down

(01:59:17):
in the home stretch of the year. Incredible to think
of that. Huh. Yep. So again, thank you so much
for spending this time with me. You're all wonderful and
I will be seeing you soon.

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Haunted Places | Interview with Christopher Balzano | Podcast

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Haunted Places | Interview with Christopher Balzano | Podcast