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October 13, 2023 • 54 mins
We're thrilled to bring you a special Stronger U Radio episode! Our very own Gianna Masi and Glen Schleehauf sit down with this month's community book club author, Matt Fitzgerald.

Join us as we delve into the world of peak performance and nutrition. Matt shares unique insights and details about his writing process. He also reveals how he created a running club that welcomes runners of all skill levels to come and improve their abilities.

In this enlightening conversation, we explore motivation, determination, and the science behind pushing your limits. Whether you're a seasoned athlete or just starting your fitness journey, Matt's expertise will inspire you to reach your full potential.

Don't miss this episode; it's the perfect prelude to our upcoming book club discussions on "How Bad Do You Want It." Plus, mark your calendar for a community live with Matt on October 26th in the Stronger U Community!

Prepare to be inspired, educated, and motivated to elevate your performance to new heights!
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Transcript

Episode Transcript

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(00:01):
Hi, everyone, Welcome to theStronger You radio podcast. I'm your host
today, Gianna Massey and I amjoined by my awesome co host, Glenn
Schleihoff, who is also a nutritioncoach and Stronger You colleague of mine,
and we're pumped today to talk toour podcast guest who is an author,

(00:21):
a coach, a nutritionist and theyare just so accomplished in endurance, athletics
and sport. And he is alsothe author of How Bad Do You Want
It, which is our Stronger Youbook club book this month, and we're
thrilled to go over all the differentstories and storytelling in this book. It

(00:42):
really is so engaging. So ifyou haven't picked it up yet, I
highly recommend you listen to the audibleor check out the actual book. So
again, it's How Bad Do YouWant It? By Matt Fitzgerald, And
this book was actually introduced to ourcommunity by Glenn, and so I thought
it would be perfect to have Glennkick off what this book has meant to

(01:03):
him and a little bit of thatdiscovery of the book. So I'm going
to hand it over to Glenn,and then we're going to welcome Matt to
the Stronger You podcast. This isa Stronger You radio where nutrition is fun,
diet trends are overrated, and wehelp you take the guesswork out of
eating healthy. Join us today withStronger You team coaches and friends as they

(01:26):
discussed what it takes to become aStronger You today. Are you ready?
Let's get to it. So thefirst time I read How Bad Do You
Want? It was just as anathlete trying to get better at like suffering
and you know. But then Ifound myself so much using the messages from

(01:46):
that book in coaching, so andthis all came together really quickly. I
was speaking to a Stronger You memberon the phone, like in mid September,
and I recommended the book because shewas prepping for like a fifty k
trail run and she was into obstaclecourse races. I often find myself recommending
your book to endurance athletes. Andthen I thought, hey, well,

(02:07):
I just recommend this to the wholecommunity. So I posted something in our
private Facebook group picture of the bookand you know, a couple of paragraphs
about it, And unbeknownst to me, our community coordinator Kenzie, was searching
for a book for our October bookclub and we'd already read a few books
that were like specifically about nutrition,So she was looking for something a little

(02:27):
bit more dynamic because nutrition books canbe boring maybe, and so yeah,
but then she must have reached outto you right away. You were available,
and so it feels like, youknow, ten days later, we're
here on the podcast. So thankyou so much for you know, taking
the time out to chat with us. Yeah, this was part mind.
Yes they did. Yeah, happyyou to be here. So I read

(02:53):
a lot of his books. Sodo you want to tell tell the audience
Tony books you've read of his?And I want to know the exact count
on how how many books you have? Matt way more than I anticipated.
No, So I thought I wasdoing really well. I read how Bad
Do you Want It? I reada book called Diet Cults, and then
I read your book iron Ore,which is like a big long sports journalist

(03:15):
type book about these two guys thatwere going to head to head in triathlons
in the nineteen eighties. Was thateighties and nineties? It was like a
battle. But I think but thenI was looking on your website prepped this.
I think he's written close to thirtybooks. So my three books is
not my in the Matt Fitzgerald's bodyof work. Yeah, I'm like one
of those pulp fiction novelists who justcranks out two books a year for decades

(03:40):
and before you know what, there'sa library. It's incredible. How is
that process for you? Are youlike inspired and then you sit down or
like, how does that come aboutfor you? I'm very curious. Yeah.
So, you know, my dadis a writer, so I grew
up knowing that one could write professionally, and I fell in love with writing.

(04:00):
I mean, I remember I wasnine years old when I told my
parents I was going to be awriter when I grew up. And I
just from that age on, youknow, because there were you know,
there were books in our house withmy dad's name on the spine, so
I thought that that was very romantic. So that was my goal from the
time I was that age. Andfinally got my first book contract I think

(04:21):
when I was thirty, so ittook a while, but then it was
just like, it's what I wantto do is write books. And I
am a very curious person and soI'm always learning and I have I always
have something to say, and oneAnother thing that I inherited from my dad
is like he's just you know,you have some creative types who are very

(04:42):
hot and cold, you know.They they just they have bursts of inspiration
and productivity and then fallow periods.Like my dad was never like that,
and nor am I. We're bothvery workmanlike. We just sit down in
front of the computer in the morningand chop wood and then get up the
next day and do it again.And it's amazing how many books you can
write if you do that every day. That's incredible. I'm co authoring a

(05:06):
book right now, and it islike it is a different type of mental
you know, resilience to be like, Okay, I'm going to do this
much work right now, and notjust go and be wayward by like inspiration.
It's like you have to do thething. So I appreciate that,
but it is hard work. Itdoesn't get easier. Well, that's actually

(05:28):
nice to hear you say, becauseI'm like, wow, this muscle is
not that strong right now. Ifeel like I haven't written in that way
in a long time, and soit is nice to hear coming from someone
who was like thirty books. Yes, I would know you would. Well,
actually, I think we all threeof us grew up in the same
area because you're from New England originally, I think New Hampshire. What was

(05:49):
that like for you growing up inthe northeast. You know, it was
kind of all I knew. Imean when I was very very young.
My family was in the Midwest.But you know how it is, you
know, like you don't necessarily knowif you're rich or poor, or if
there's a better or worse place tolive. You're just a kid and you
make the best of So it wasa very good place to grow up.
I was in the My family wasin the Sea Coast area of New Hampshire,

(06:10):
so kind of nestled wrong, yeah, and there was you know,
just you know, there was lotsto do outdoors and this was, you
know, nineteen eighties, so wewere outdoors all the time, you know,
capture the flag, street, hockey, mischief, you know, you
name it. And so I don'tregret it. I moved to the West
Coast when I was twenty four,and I would have a hard time seeing

(06:31):
myself going going back to New Hampshireat this point. But no regrets about
growing up there. So no familyremains in New Hampshire, Like you're not
coming over Thanksgiving or anything that's nota part of your lifestyle, but your
Thanksgiving dinner, Yeah, you know, it's well funny enough. So I
have two brothers and they both movedmigrated to the West Coast as well.

(06:55):
All three of us married West Coastgirls, you know, so that helped
us put down routes year. Andthen when my parents were getting on an
age and their health was declining,we moved them west so that they could
be closer to families. So yeah, there's not much reason for me to
go back east now, Boston Marathon, a few other things, yeah for

(07:15):
sure. Yeah. And so flagStaff area, if I'm not mistaken,
is that where you're still at now? Or are you in California? Yeah?
I was in California forever and thenend of last year moved to flag
Staff. My wife and I hadspent a summer here in twenty seventeen,
fell in love with flag Staff,and then I got an idea for a
business called Dream Run Camp and cameback here to launch that business. So

(07:39):
we've been here since basically Christmas lastyear. What's that business? Can you
tell us a little bit more.Yeah, it's a unique twist on a
model of adult running camps. Soyou know, I've been to a million
adult running camps and they're usually like, you know, three to four days
long. There's like twenty to thirtypeople. Everyone arrives at the same time,
leaves at the same time. ForDream Run, it's sort of like

(08:00):
a never ending rolling attendance format andmuch more intimate. So I bought a
property here and just pimped out aslike the Ultimate Runners Retreat. So we
got you know, a full gymand a mind body recovery lounge and a
sauna and a spa pool where youcan swim or run in place in it.
And it's just a great place tobe a runner. And it's sort

(08:22):
of modeled after like you know,the pro style you know training camps,
except this one is for runners ofall abilities. And I'm really trying to
reach those runners who they have,you know, a great passion for the
sport, just like the pros,but they don't necessarily give them permission to
take it all the way and seehow good they could be, because people
just disqualify themselves for what I thinkare very poor reasons. It's like oh

(08:43):
well, I'm not that gifted,or I'm older, or I'm newer or
whatever. And so Dream Run Campis a place where you can just go
and just fully indulge your passion forrunning. And so the minimum stay here
is one week, and you canstay for up to twelve weeks. So
basically sort of like recreating what Idid when I came to flag Staff in
twenty seventeen. I actually embedded myselfwith a team of professional runners and just

(09:07):
I was forty six years old atthe time, had never been even close
to being a pro runner, butit was just such a beautiful experience for
me. I wanted to create afac simbly of it that's available to anyone
who wants it. Okay, thatsounds incredible, and it also speaks to
the point of like our environment thatpats everything, and so I love that
you're facilitating that perfect environment. Andthat's something you know, all three of

(09:28):
us talk about with nutrition and withthe nutrition environment. Do you do specific
things around I'm assuming nutrition is alarge topic when they go to the camp.
Is there anything you want to sharewith us on that? Yes?
Yeah, So part of the modelis that you know, I'm basically the
host and the head coach at DreamlindCamp, and then I have like a
sort of a you know, anancillary staff of experts in like you know,

(09:52):
injury prevention and treatment, strength training, and then you know, it's
mostly folks that I knew from twentyseventeen when I was here, like people
who I just knew well and trusted. That's amazing. That sounds so cool.
So before we jump into even talkingabout how bad do you want it,
I wanted to sort of set thetable by asking you a couple of

(10:13):
questions from your nutrition book or thenutrition book that I read, which was
called Diet Cults, just to establish, like what I'm excited to talk to
you about and for our audience toread your book, is that we're on
a very same page as far asour nutrition philosophy had stronger you and the
what you called agnostic healthy eating inthat book where you're describing like maximum flexibility,

(10:39):
like the least restrictive diet to getthe maximum results. So I wanted
to ask you two questions about thatbook, first being, you know,
could you concisely summarize that book everythingthat where you sort of debunk all of
the diets and then sort of comeup with your own, which is sort
of like nutrition in mainstream yep.Yeah, the inspiration for that book was

(11:03):
really my own frustration at feeling like, you know, so I'm not a
dietician about you know, as anathlete and coach, you sort of have
to be able to provide some sortof nutrition guidance to athletes. And I
did get you know, sports nutritioncertification, which sounds like a great education.
It was pretty easy to get.Didn't make me an expert, but

(11:24):
like you know, like I've hadjust I'm mostly an autodidact where you know,
I'm in a fortunate position where likeI'll just read a lot of research
and then just email the person whodid the study and say, explain this
to me. And it's not abad way to bone up on nutrition.
And anyway, in my role justoffering what I felt was like very evidence
based and also practical guidance on nutrition. I was aware that you know,

(11:48):
this was not happening in a vacuum, and that there was all this what
I perceived as disinformation or just likeyou know, at the athletes who I
was trying to reach with my goodadvice, we're getting a lot to bad
advice from other sources, and Iwas just amazed by like how much it
just it struck me, like whycan't humans think straight about food? Like

(12:09):
it's just it's not that hard,you know. And my my stick,
if I have a shtick, isreally is like is proven best practices.
So even before I like science,but as as a coach, you know,
I put even more trust in inproven best real world practices. I'm
like, just monkey, see monkeydo with the you know, the healthiest,
fittest people. It's like that's whatI did, you know, as

(12:30):
an athlete myself, and it workedgreat. And you know, I almost
majored in sociology in college, LikeI just I love trying to understand like
what makes people work in sort oflike from a group dynamics perspective, And
so I just decided to try andanswer for myself exactly that question why can't
people think straight about food? Andand the research was just an absolute blast,

(12:50):
but you know, I just youknow, you just learned a lot
about how food is more than foodfor people that it's like it's caught up
in matters of you know, identity, both personal and social identity. You
know, history, tradition, culture, morality, and that, like it's
like, oh, yeah, mostof the reasons that people choose to eat
a certain way have nothing to dowith science or health or rationality. Even

(13:13):
when we tell ourselves that story,we think we're making choices for rational reasons,
they're really largely not. And sothat was the main thrust of the
book. I think people who lookat the cover and don't read it think,
oh, you know, he's justlike bashing all the fad diets,
and yeah, there is a bitof like there is a little bit of
that, you know, showing thatthe emperor has no clothes with these various
diets. But what I actually takepains the show is like I actually show

(13:37):
that they can be effective. Foreach chapter that focuses on a particular diet,
I actually give the example of aperson who's very happy with that diet
and show it's like because it sortof underscores the point that it's like,
you know, humans are are nature'sultimate omnivores, and there's, yeah,
there's some rules you can't get awaywith breaking if you want to be healthy,

(13:58):
but there's also a lot of roomto just you know, find your
own way to do things. Butyou know, my last frustration was that
for those of us who are turnedoff by kind of the propaganda that surrounds
most of you know, most dietsthat have a name, you know,
their main advocates tend to have thislike this is the one true way mentality,

(14:18):
which is just not supportable scientifically atall. And so it's like,
it's fine if you want to eatthat way, and I do believe that
people can eat that way and behealthy, but please don't tell us that
that's the that's the only way.And so I wanted to try to make
you know, you mentioned at thetop of the show that like, you
know, like a lot of dietbooks are boring. Well, I would

(14:39):
say the mainstream ones tend to beboring, and that's part of the problem.
You know. It's just like thebad diets have the sizzle and sexiness
and it's like, oh, thecelebrities are on. I'm like, this
is like a party, let's joinit. And then meanwhile there's this like
there's actually a much easier way toeat healthy that is just neglected because it
lacks that sizzle. So I wantedto Yeah, in naming, I realized

(15:00):
that could be accused of hypocrisy fordoing this, but like applying a name
to the other way to eat,which agnostic healthy eating, is where I
came up. But I just wantedto to create a sort of like magnetism
or gravity around this way of eatingthat is really for the rest of us,
those of us who are turned offby the propaganda surrounding a lot of

(15:22):
popular diets. Yeah, and that'swhat we definitely try to do it stronger
you with our coaching and our membersis like we marry evidence base but with
strategy of like we live in thereal world. So even if something says
X y Z your lived experience andhow we're strategizing for your environment, your
training, what things are happening foryou. I mean there's so much,

(15:43):
especially with endurance training, like youknow, different gut problems that happen in
training our gut and like all ofthose nuances. I mean, if the
literature tells me, okay, dothis with carbs, it's like, okay,
well what is this person feeling?What types? So there's so much
there, So I think, yeah, all of our listeners definitely check that
book out. I haven't read thatone myself, but I'm sure I would
like it from everything you just said. And when Kenzie, So, when

(16:08):
Kenzie said we're going to do thisbook, how bad do you want it
for book club? I was like, he's written diet books too, and
she was like, no, Iwant to do something. And now that
I've had some time, I'm like, yeah, I'm glad we're reading this
because we could summarize the nutrition bookor we're going to give them nutrition stuff.
But what I'm hoping that they getout of this book is just more

(16:29):
mindset type stuff. And so that'sthe second. There's a quote also from
diet Cults that I pulled directly sayssecret to Losing Weight has little to do
with what a person eats and everythingto do with a person's mindset. And
that's from like the conclusion chapter ofthat book, but a lot of it
comes from the chapter on weight watchers, which is really a chapter about motivation.

(16:51):
And so I just wanted you totalk a little bit about what and
so as a coach, I've alwaysbelieved that And when I read that sentence,
right, like, it doesn't havemuch to do with the food they
has everything to do with their liketheir attitudes about and their beliefs and their
mindset and their thoughts and their emotions. That really resonated with me. But
in researching that book, you actually, you know, there is research to

(17:15):
back that up, right, thatmotivation is difference between success and failure.
Can you talk about that a littlebit? Yes, you know, it's
funny. You know, that particularpassage was challenged by one of my readers.
I remember, like, you know, I get some hate mail every
author does. It was like,right, right, yes, it's a
rite of passage for authors. Butyou know, the reader made a good

(17:37):
point. They said, well,you know, you make it sound like
it's like unifactorial, like you know, if you're just motivated enough, then
you can eat right, and ifyou're not eating right, then you're not
motivated, and that, you know, the you know, the person writing
said, that's a little simplistic andyou know, just a little sort of
unnecessarily blaming. And I actually concededthat point, while still, you know,

(18:00):
I stand by the main point,and you know, I give like,
you know, sort of like ahypothetical in that chapter that that sort
of makes this intuitive for folks likeyou know, if somebody offered you ten
million dollars to you know, eatin a certain way that you claim is
inconvenient or impossible for you because ofyour circumstances, like chances are right,

(18:25):
or you know, if you're moremotivated by the stick than the carrot,
like you know, if you don'tadopt these help you know, these proven
health eating habits, like you willgo to prison for ten years, like
chances are again you could find becauseyou've got you know, the motivational stakes
have been raised. And so thatsort of makes the point that again it's
not all motivation, but it reallyis, you know, largely motivation.

(18:47):
And the other point, the nuanceto that is like, and I make
that this point in that chapter aswell, the same people who fail on
in attempts to change their diet forthe better are also the people who ultimately
succeed. So it's not that like, you know, some people lack the
motivation and others do. No,everyone, you know, virtually everyone can
find it. It's just a matterof like you know, just getting in

(19:11):
the right headspace or in the rightenvironment, you know, or you know,
sometimes it's a timing thing as well, you're just sometimes not ready to
make those changes. So yeah,so cool. Yeah, And so then
when we like, when I'm readingthis book, how bad do you want
to which is again like to yourpoint, it's very entertaining. First and
foremost, it's if you're just like, hey, I want to read this

(19:33):
book about sports psychology and coping skills. I might be like, I'm not
sure. But you take like realstories, fabulous stories of like actual events
from you know, Marathon Chicago,Marathon, Tour de France, iron Man's
rowing, Olympic rowing, swimming,like the Gauntlet of endurance sports, and

(19:55):
you tell these great stories almost likethey're like documentaries, like little sports sports
biographies, and then you weave inresearch based you know, this is the
sports psychology and this is like thespecific character trait or coping skill that this
person used in this situation. Andthen like and hey, this is how
you can do it with this wholeidea that you create something called mental fitness,

(20:18):
which is like how you deal withadversity, all of your sort of
thoughts and coping skills and emotions thathelp you face up to something that's stressful
and challenging and like make that feeleasier. Right, So you talk a
lot about perception of effort and thewhole time I read that, what I

(20:40):
almost want our audience to do is, like every time he's talking about perception
of effort and physical fatigue, Iwant you to make the metaphor of like
that your your endurance event is likethis nutritional path that you're on, whether
that's you're trying to lose fifty poundsor you or you're also training for But
that's our most into scenario is wehave lots of members who are on a

(21:03):
weight loss journey and they have aone on one nutrition coach who's trying to
help them get from wherever they areto what their goal is. And it
might be I'm turning forty this yearor fifty, or I have a wedding
or any sort of event. Ijust had my third child and now I'm
not having any more and I wantto get back to my sort of college

(21:26):
fitness right like that. So they'reembarking on a journey. Our job is
to help them sort of cope withall the challenges they're going to face along
the way. And so that youridea of mental fitness, I'm like,
well, this seems perfect for whatwe need. So from there, I
want to say of those coping skillsin the book, like which ones do

(21:47):
you think are the most important?For if we made that metaphor that leap
from endurance training to like, okay, you're going on a three month diet
and that's your endurance event, whichcoping skills are the most important? You
think, Yeah, I mean we'vecovered motivation a bit, but I mean
it is it is so foundational.It's like, you know, with with

(22:07):
sufficient motivation, you know, there'sthis tendency to think like, oh,
if only I have the right information, then the rest will take care of
itself. But like you're not goingto do anything with the right information without
motivation. And if and I seethis all the time and endurance sport,
it's like if you have someone whohas a lot of motivation and no information,
they'll find the information. You know. So it's really like, if

(22:30):
you can only have one or theother, you you definitely want motivation.
It's like there's truly no such thingas too much of it. I mean,
you certainly need other things, becauseyou know, motivation without some other
things, there's no guardrails and youend up, you know, just going
to extremes and then you know theother thing about motivation is that it's very
personal, you know. So youknow, I see this, you know,

(22:51):
in my one on one coaching withwith athletes. You know, you
know, my agenda for everyone isto get their motivation level as high as
I possibly can. So that's universal, but the particulars are very different.
You know. I've had athletes whoare like, they're mainly motivated, Like
they view you know, their theirtalent for running or whatever as a gift
from God, and they're like they'revery religious and like that it like their

(23:15):
sport is a way of connecting withthe divine. I'm like, all right,
let's go with that. Like itworks for you, not going to
work for everyone. For someone else, it might be like I really want
to set a great example for mychildren. I want, you know me,
I want to through my sport,I want to model resilience and discipline
and all these things. It's like, wonderful, Let's let's go with that.
It's not like it's one thing forevery person, but it is different

(23:37):
for each athlete, and so itwould be the same, very much the
same. I would imagine in youknow, just in the weight loss space
or you know, eating for healthand longevity, those types of things you
have to like it puts a littlebit of responsibility on the individual. It's
like, you know, you actuallyhave to reflect about like what makes you
tick. But if you do that, if you go through that process,

(23:59):
it makes everything that follows just moreof like a downhill journey where it's just
like momentum takes you because you've connectedwith your why, as it were.
So that's motivation. Another one that'slike, you know, like it's easy
to overlook but critically important is goalsetting. You know. In the chapter
that's focused on goal setting and howbad you want it, I tell the
story of Greg LeMond, who wantedTour de France in nineteen eighty six,

(24:23):
was involved in a hunting accident thatalmost killed him and definitely almost ended his
career. Comes back to the nineteeneighty eight Tour de France and he's in
second place on the last day andhe has to do basically the most impossible
time trial performance ever to overtake theperson who's in front of him and when,
and because the point I make thereis because the goal was at the

(24:45):
very limit of what might have beenpossible for him, Like he wasn't sure
he's like, I've got maybe afive percent chance, Like you know that
that sort of stretch goal was like, that's exactly the perfect goal to maximize
your performance, Like if you wantto discover your limits, that's exactly the

(25:06):
kind of goal. Like if it'sout of reaching you know it, you
won't try as hard because you can'tkid yourself, like, I know it's
impossible, and therefore I'm just goingto kind of coast. But if it's
also a goal that you are onehundred percent certain you can achieve, you
also won't try as hard because well, why should I. It's guaranteed it's
a slam dunk. So you wantsomething that's just like at the absolute limits

(25:26):
of what you perceive as possible foryou. And then you know, maybe
that has a little bit of lesscrossover to you know, the diet space,
but it goes to show that thereis, like that goal setting,
there's nuance to it, and someyou know, a certain amount I guess
that's my theme. A certain amountof reflection is required too, and like
instead of like because some people liketheir goals are just so arbitrary, you

(25:47):
know, it's just like you know, they'll tell you their goal and then
you ask them why and they're scratchingtheir heads. It's like, well it's
a nice round number, you know. So like there's a lot you can
do with goals, Like you know, you know, goals are like dynamic
and so it's not like this passivething where you set the goal and then
do the work. Actually, youknow, if you set the if you

(26:08):
frame your goal I guess smartly,then the work is actually easier to do.
You're less likely to be like bombardedwith intrusive thoughts that you know,
want to derail you from pursuit ofthe goal. So those are two big
ones, motivation and goal setting.Yeah, and I think laced in there
with the Greg la Mont story you'retalking about. There has to be belief,

(26:29):
right, Like you have to believethat it's possible, and that's something
that we see people have head trash, you know, or when someone tells
you their initial goal. I'm surewith running and with dieting the same.
They might say I want to runBoston and you say why, and then
they might tell you something. Youkind of keep pulling on that thread and
asking, well, what does thatmean to you or right, and you

(26:51):
find out there's some deeply, Likeyou have to ask them why several times
before you start to get to likethe real well, that's something that's like
a real concrete motivation, not likeyeah and then yeah. They have to
believe it's possible, right, Likehoping and wishing isn't gonna make you,
you know, say no to certaininvitations or temptations that come up that aren't

(27:12):
in line with your that aren't goingto move you towards your goal, right,
You're going to have to You're goingto have to do the work.
I love the one. I lovebracing yourself because at the beginning of someone's
journey, they're very enthusiastic I thinkstarting out, and I think it's important
to be like, hey, thisis especially if it's someone like who has

(27:33):
been unsuccessful in the past, rightshas feel like they've done diet after diet
after diet and they've continuously failed andthey're just almost hopeless. But they're going
to give it one last attempt orthey're going to start a new program.
And at first they have motivation,but then you have to tell them like,
hey, this is going to bereally hard. Yep. The first

(27:55):
day of your diet, someone allof a sudden, like you know,
your friend call you out the blue, Hey, we should get together for
drinks. I owe you. Itold you last year I wrote your dinner
and I never followed before. Likethere's always going to be temptation along going
to say who are you? Howare you going to handle it? How
bad do you want it? Right? Like, what are you going to
do when this gets hard? Becauseit's going to get hard right away,

(28:15):
So hopefully you can embrace them somuch that it's actually not as hard as
you predict, or that when thatthing arrives, you say, hey,
like we warned you about this,You're they'll be more prepared by bracing for
the worst, right yeah, andusually not surprising stuff, right Like it's
like, yeah, your friend callsyou out of blue, but you usually
know those problems that are going toarise. It's like, yeah, my

(28:36):
member was like, oh, I'mgoing to a wine tasting this weekend.
I wonder what could go wrong ata wife and right like, so we
know, like okay, so howare we going to navigate that? How
are we going to frame that?What's what's our mantra our mindset that's going
to help us or kind of elicitthat like more problematic behavior there. So
I think that's really helpful to framethat. Okay, guys, what if

(29:00):
I told you you could finally reachyour goals without fad dieting, deprivation,
or unrealistic expectations, all while stillenjoying the foods you love. Yes,
it's possible. In fact, we'vehelped over fifty thousand members do just this.
Now it's your turn. New membersget fifty percent off your first month
with a purchase of a monthly membershipplan. And what do you get with
this? You get one on onepersonalized coaching, unlimited coach messaging and weekly

(29:25):
check ins, nutritious resources and tools, and access to a welcoming community.
Sign up today with code SU Radiofifty. You've got this and we've got
you, So let's reach your goalstogether. I want to talk a little
bit more about the book itself,and so our community is starting this week
to dive into the chapters. Ourcommunity managers have made really nice chapter targets

(29:48):
so that way they can be donewith the book for when you come into
our community, which we're really excitedfor. So they're working on that.
But when I was thinking about this, I'm like, there are so many
great stories in this book and reference, and I was curious some of maybe
your favorite highlights, if you canpull any out that really just you want
to touch on to get people excitedif they haven't gotten there yet. Yeah.

(30:11):
Sure. One chapter that I keepcoming back to is a favorite because
it's like, maybe like the chapteryou wouldn't expect in a book like that,
kind of a wild card. Thechapter starts off where I'm describing the
scene of the metal ceremony after it'sin the twenty twelve London Olympics, And
it's the metal ceremony after the finalof the men's double skull rowing event,

(30:36):
and so you have the gold medalistson top, and then the silver medalists
and then the bronze medalists, andthe photograph if you if you just google
the photograph, it's very striking becausethe two teammates who are in the silver
medal position and the two teammates inthe bronze medal position are gigantic. They
are behemoths, which is very standardfor elite level rowers. And then the

(31:00):
gold medalists, two guys from NewZealand, are they look tiny by compared.
It's actually kind of a comical photographbecause of the disparity. Now,
these two guys just happened to bethat they're actually average size guys, like
once, I think five to elevenand they made the other six foot,
but they're dwarfed by the guys aroundthem. Well, but they're also the
best in the world. They won. And I mentioned, like, you

(31:22):
know, forget about this photo.If you look at like the height and
weight for all of the teams thatwere entered in that event, you know,
including the ones that didn't make thefinal or you know, didn't get
medals, these two guys, thetwo best, were the two smallest in
the entire competition. So I thinkit was like thirty two teams, sixty
four guys the two smallest guys ina sport where it's considered duh, you

(31:44):
have to be huge to be Andso the whole focus of that chapter is
this concept of having the right bodyfor what you want to do. And
I give all kinds of other examplesof athletes in different sports who were outliers,
you know, because we all knowthat, you know, especially in
elite sports, it's like there iscertainly a certain body type that tends to
float to the top. But thereare there are lots of exceptions and then

(32:07):
and so those exceptions can be veryinspiring for people who feel like, uh,
you know, I got the wrongbody for the thing I like to
do. It's like, well,says who. And then also it's like,
okay, not only are these exceptionsinspiring, but it's also okay,
well how do they do it?You know, it's not magic? And
so then I delve deep deeper intoyou know, I go, I go

(32:30):
really deep into the example of thesetwo Kiwi rowers, but also I explain
some of the other examples and whatI my term for it is the workaround
effect where if you have, youknow, if there's something you want to
achieve and the obvious way to doit is blocked to you, just like,
well, you know, I can'tdo it this way because I'm not
tall enough or whatever. Then ifyou're if you're resourceful and you're persistent,

(32:54):
can you tend to find a workaround where you know, you know,
it's like, no longer, isit really the wrong body for what you
want to do? And it's likeagain, it's another one of those things
where it's kind of on you.It's easy to say, oh, well,
of course I suck. I havethe wrong body for the sport.
But if you're not one of thosepeople you said, well, let's just
see what's possible for me, thenyou know just who knows what might be

(33:15):
possible for you. I love theword resourceful, like I think, just
to share my personal experience was Ihad the wrong quote unquote body type for
gymnastics. I was a tall gymnastgrowing up, and so I did get
really strategic and strategized. And Iwas young, so I didn't really know
that I was doing that, butI was like, oh, I can't
do that, but I can dothis, so I'm going to maximize that

(33:35):
and then still be within the competition. And then I wrote in college and
I was telling Glenn this story beforeit was like I watched so many rowers
who were taller than me, shorterthan me, and it was like,
we're all across the board. Butlike the freshman year test is getting sub
eight for a female team, right, Like that's like you better be able
to do that or you're not goingto have like any sense in coming to

(33:59):
practice basically and watch these really powerfulteammates that I had, and they just
couldn't hold it together at the end. And that's like everything that you talk
about in this book. Like theentire time reading, I'm like, oh
my gosh, this is it,this is it? Like it just and
so anybody that's listening, like,if you can think about those experiences in

(34:21):
your life, I mean, you'llhave so many of those like aha moments.
And I think that's what's so specialabout this book and why I've been
really enjoying it for myself and forour members. So I think that's really
cool. I love how you justs frame that up. So thank you
for telling me that. Yeah,No, it's cool to know that you
have personal experience that effect same.I think that you know that can resonate

(34:42):
for everyone. Right, at somepoint someone has told you, like you're
not naturally gifted at something that youwant to do. So yeah, I
was trying to do CrossFit, whichhas evolved into Yeah, the people that
win year in and year out areshort with short limbs because it's like they're
doing hundreds of repetitions that have todo with range of motion. So having

(35:04):
short limbs there is actually beneficial.Unlike in rowing, if you're doing say
one hundred pull ups, who cando it faster? The guy with short
arms is going to do it fastcycle then faster than someone with long arms.
So I had a coach to lookat me in my twenties and be
like, you should be doing triathlonbecause I'm like tall, like what are
you doing? And now in myforties, I'm like, maybe I should
do a triathlon. You should.But I do think that people same head

(35:30):
trash that get into saying like,oh, you know, they fall in
love with their limitations or why theycan't do something, and so just to
give Matt some credibility too, rightbecause he looks pretty slim in the marathon
runner. But you've got your owntransformation story, right when you went away
from that lifestyle, you ballooned upand gained sixty or seventy pounds I think

(35:53):
after high school when you stopped runningand started eating ice cream and you know,
and they had to. So you'vebeen there, right, you've been
yes, Oh yeah, yep.I remember thinking. I remember going to
the dining center at my college andlike with intentions of like I'm going to

(36:15):
make healthy choices this time, andit was like make your own omelet day
or something. I'm like, oh, here, here we go. I
just made up. It was likeI was like, you know, just
my mind had been taken over bysome sort of virus and I just went
straight to the make your own omeletstation and you know, an omelet can
be healthy, but I did notmake it a healthy omelet, and I

(36:36):
was just disgusted with myself. I'mlike, I remember telling myself, I
do not have what it takes toever be lean again. I just don't
have it. And that was alot, you know, just you know,
fast forward a few years, andyou know, I just I needed
like a different environment, different motivations. I needed maybe a little bit more
growth and then just the right reason. And for me, like you know,

(36:58):
and this happens for a lot ofpeople. Well, when I tried
to lose weight, to lose weightdidn't happen when I just wanted to get
fitter so I could be an athleteagain, and I like suddenly, like
the motivation I couldn't find to avoidto make your own omelet station, I
could easily find to make different dietchoices because oh well you know, because
it's for my sport. And that'sreally how it happened for me. I

(37:21):
always say, like performance as aproxy for physique, right, Like,
I think that is always a reallylike nice way to go about something rather
than just the weight loss or justbeing small or any of those things like
that, that proxy of like Okay, I want to perform or I want
to do these things. Just that, at least for me and a lot
of people I work with, thatfeels more motivating more. It's not as

(37:43):
fleeting, right Like it's going tosee in itself a little bit longer.
And something you just said was somethingthat I just want to touch on was
you were like, oh, I'llnever be that lean again. And I
think what happens for a lot ofpeople that I've worked with is that we
think about that time or be atime where, like things, we had
a physique we liked, we hada performance we liked, but what we

(38:05):
were doing in order to get therewasn't really an efficient way. Maybe it
felt like such a slog to getthrough that, and so I think it's
like, there's a lot of waysto get to that result, and so
it doesn't have to be that sameway. So I don't know, did
it feel like the way that youwere doing that was just overwhelming and unsustainable
or like, was it just thatyou had that big change? Yeah,

(38:29):
just you know, the difference wasI was not a competitive athlete at the
time, so I went from youknow, being a serious runner in high
school. I was naturally ectomorphic,you know, I had never had an
ounce of that I could spare inmy life. And then lo and behold
when I quit running, you know, I just had this hidden potential to

(38:51):
get kind of puffy, and Idid and it was and really it only
changed when I just was, youknow, went back to become being an
athlete. That that was it forme. But you know, I totally
get your point. Like I seethis with athletes who older athletes who are
getting older. Let's say, youknow, they you know, for a
long time, they you know,because they were youthful and training hard,

(39:14):
they could get away with all kindsof slack in their diet, and then
suddenly that's say, they're doing thesame stuff, but their their body is
changing, and they're like, ohdear, And you know, some of
them are like, well, Iguess that's just father time, but others
are like, no, there arethings I can do I could have been
doing all along, but I didn'tfeel I had to. But now my

(39:34):
body's changing, and so I'm justgoing to tighten up some of that slack.
And you know, I think that'sa that's a good example of what
you're talking about. Just there isa more efficient way, and sometimes it's
not until you kind of have toget more efficient. Yeah, if you
don't have to change your reading,why do it right? Right? So
this one I have a question foryou. You may not have an answer

(39:55):
or maybe like think about it forthe month when we come back and do
that live. So there's an anecdotein your book same where it's just talking
about you do a time trial,like say you run a mile, but
and then a week later, nowwe're going to run a mile, but
you're going to listen to music whileyou run, like some uptempo music,
and it's like, you're going torun faster. This is like a fact.

(40:17):
Or you're going to run a mile. We're going to give you a
cup of coffee before you run.So we just gave you some caffeine.
You're going to run faster. Andlike what you say is nothing changed in
the short amount of time from thefirst trial to the next except for this
outside stimulus, Like you didn't getfitter or faster, but because of that
music or that caffeine, suddenly runningfelt easier. So your like thoughts about

(40:42):
how hard what you were doing werelike decreased, Like you didn't think it
was as hard because the music madeyou cheerful as you ran. Can you
think of anything that would be theequivalent of that, like in a in
a diet setting, right, Likeyou're on a diet, you have to
eat less, you have to eatin a calnary deficit to lose some weight.

(41:02):
Is there simple things you could doto make it easier, like caffeine
or music? Maybe caffeine and music, are they answers? Yes? Right,
just listening to music. Yeah,just get a good playlist and this
is going to be yep. Wellyou know so, I mean what we're
talking about there, you know.The big focus of the book is like

(41:23):
this theory or model of endurance performancecalled the psycho biological model of human performance,
And it's based on the idea that, unlike a lot of other sports,
in endurance sports, the thing thatlimits performance is perception of effort,
and perception of effort is a distinctperception with like, you know, like
a neurological signature. It's it's verymuch analogous to pain, but it's not

(41:46):
pain. It's a discreete and uncomfortablefeeling. You know. It's like if
you interrupt anyone in the middle oflike a hard workout and you ask them
how hard are you working? Theycan answer that question, and what they're
you know, sort of paying attentionto when they're trying to answer that question
is perception of effort. And soin endurance sports, you can enhance performance

(42:07):
either by increasing your tolerance for perceivedeffort or by actually making you know,
any any given level and intensity ofexercise feel easy easier by reducing perception of
effort. The examples you gave musicand and caffeine both reduce the amount of
effort you're perceiving at any given levelof output. And so the equivalent in

(42:30):
you know, just sort of likeyou know, the diet habits arena would
be, you know, making theprocess actually seem easier or feel feel easier.
And so there would be you thinkof all the different levers you can
pull, you know, maybe onethat would be the most concrete sort of
analogy would be and I do thisall the time when I'm trying to you

(42:50):
know, just you know, helphelp athletes, you know, shift their
their eating patterns. Is like likeeating food that you enjoy eating. You
know, like there's like such awidespread perception that like you can either enjoy
eating or you can eat healthy,but you can't do both. And so
when you see it all the time, people like, all right, I'm
ready to bite the bullet and eathealthy now, and it won't even cross

(43:12):
their mind to like make it asenjoyable as they possibly can totally, but
if you do, it's like theequivalent of your perceived effort will be much
lower. And it's like, wow, this actually feels kind of doable because
I like what I'm having for lunch. Yeah, And that's our whole model
too, of like, yeah,we want your food preferences to be something
that are here every single day,Like we're not trying to white knuckle it,

(43:36):
and like you said, like havean on or off switch of like
healthy food or not. It's like, okay, well what is here and
what is helpful or like what canwe do a little bit less of but
still keep it right. We don'twant to totally omit those things either,
So yeah, I like that.Yeah, that's so much in the industry
of nutrition coaching that some people comein with an expectation that going to actually

(44:00):
tell them exactly what to eat,you know, for breakfast, lunch,
and dinner. We're going to deliverthis meal plan. But like, which
wouldn't work if I told you toeat broccoli and omelet a broccoli omelet every
day for breakfast and you're like,I don't like eggs or broccoli. It's
like we've failed, you know whatI mean, Like this is not going
well, and or they're like youdon't want them to be, like all

(44:22):
right, I got to bite them. I have to do this. Coach
told me broccoli omelets is the that'sthe path. There you go. You
have it. Broccoli omelets. That'swhat we're going to call this episode today.
And then So Matt, just anyother thoughts you want to leave us
a way as we start to readthis, I was curious, you know

(44:44):
what you're working on next? Actually, like are you in the process of
writing another book right now or anythingthat you want to share with us?
Yeah. Always, I mean it'sfunny you know when I when I I
mean anytime I write a book,you wouldn't think this is the case,
given how many have written. Isort of act like it's the last thing
I'll ever write, because I don't. Early in my career I made the

(45:04):
mistake of like trying to like holdon to some stuff. But then I
realized, like that's dumb, becauseyou're just by holding stuff back, you're
just you're just putting an artificial ceilingon how good you make the books,
Like there was other good stuff youcould have put in there. Just put
it in there and let you know, let's worry about the next book when
you get to it. And andso anyway, like you know, I
wrote, I wrote how bad youwant it? With that mindset like all

(45:27):
right, I'm going to say everythingI have to say about you know,
endurance sports psychology. And then youknow, yeah, sure enough, like
you know, a few months goby and I'm like, ah, actually,
And so I've since written a bookcalled The Comeback Quotient, which comes
at the same subject matter from adifferent angle, but it has that same
mix of you know, true truesports narrative and science. And then I'm

(45:49):
working on another one now. It'scalled The Other Talent, and it's about
this whole phenomenon where you know,the best, the best youth athletes in
the world in any sport do notgenerally go on to become the best adult
athletes, and the best adults athleteswere seldom the very best as youth.
So there's sort of this reshuffling thatoccurs. And so this is a book
about the idea that there's another talent. And so you know, when everyone's

(46:14):
new to their sport and undeveloped talent, you know, raw talent triumphs,
right, it's just like, well, none of us have trained, none
of us has practiced, so it'slike, what else do you have to
go on to perform? But it'sultimately the people who succeed the most in
the long term are the ones whodo the most with whatever talent they have.
And that's actually kind of a separatetalent, the talent to make the

(46:35):
most of your talent. And sothat that book is coming out next August.
Yeah, I've had a lot offun with that one. That's awesome.
Yeah, it's super exciting to read. And then Glenn and I were
dying to know what you're currently trainingfor, if you are training for something,
or what your training looks like rightnow, Yeah, I hate the
toss of grenade at the end ofthe podcast, but I'm actually a long
COVID sufferer. So I got COVIDin early twenty twenty before the first shutdown

(47:00):
and never recovered and it's actually partof the reason. So that thus ended
my In fact, I got COVIDrunning a marathon, so yeah, I
was about to turn forty nine.I want my age group. I almost
won the entire marathon. I waslike, do it really well for a
guy in his late forties, Andthen that was I didn't know at the

(47:21):
time the last race I ever ran. So that's sad, but you know,
there's always a silver lining, andI you know, honestly, I
do try to practice what I preach, so you know, I didn't just
write these books about resilience. Itry to be resilient. So a big
part of the reason, to comefull circle that I created Dream Run Camp
was to like kind of channel allof this passion and experience and knowledge I

(47:44):
have in another direction. It's like, all right, I can't be an
athlete anymore, but what's the nextbest thing. It's like, well,
serving other athletes, So life goeson I'm a happy man, but no
races in my feature. Okay there, that's great. That seems to be
that's a big theme in your work. You just touched on it in the
book that you're writing right now,like maximizing getting the best out of what

(48:06):
you have, like fulfilling your potential. And so in your in this book,
you tell the story a personal storyabout the two thousand and eight Silicone
Valley Mile twenty three marathon, andso it's like your personal story of what
you call it, getting the monkeyoff your back. And so if anyone's
like has listened to the whole podcast, I would love to hear you talk

(48:27):
about what's on the other side offeeling like you did fulfill your potential and
you tell that story quickly because andthen you wrote that book in twenty fourteen.
So since then, like did yougo on after that was written?
Like does that remain like your proudestmoment? And since then, like did
your I mean, your career hasbeen prolific, Like do you see that
success translate into all areas of yourlife once you finally succeed in getting a

(48:52):
monkey off your back? Because thenyou're almost like, well, now what
am I going to do? Icould do anything I want right Like you
feel like a super superman after that. Yeah, it's a great question.
Since we were rapping. I'll answerit as concisely as I can, so
you know I was inspired. Imentioned that my dad is a writer,
and that's where I got the writingbug. My dad is also the reason

(49:12):
I became a runner. He ranthe nineteen eighty three Boston Marathon when I
was eleven. I actually got torun the last mile with him and cross
the finish line, and I'm like, this is so cool. I want
to do this. And then andthen I became a runner, and I
actually turned out I was actually prettygood at it, and captained a couple
of state championship winning teams in highschool. But I became like a classic
head case. And the thing thatbrought me down was that when I got

(49:35):
to the level where I was notjust leading a state championship winning team,
but I was attend contender to winan individual state championship title, I realized
that I actually had to try harderand suffer more than I had before,
and I wasn't able to do it. And so I ended up actually sort
of just kind of burning out andquitting. That's why, you know,
I quit running and gained all thatweight. And when I came back into

(49:58):
it as an adult like that,there was a big monkey on my back.
It's like, yeah, I wantedto like, you know, make
up for lost time and see howgood I could be running. But more
than that, I viewed myself asa coward and I did not like that.
And so running became a vehicle forme to undergo a very deep personal
journey where I just I wanted tobe a certain kind of man and I

(50:20):
wasn't that yet, and I knewit, and it was all about chipping
away. And it didn't happen overnight. It wasn't as easy as like,
oh here's my new goal, andit happened in my next race. It
took a very long time. Ilet myself down in smaller ways, many
many more times. Wherefore I hadthat moment at the Silicon Valley Marathon where
it was like it was exactly thesort of moment when I would have packed
it in, you know, mentallybefore, and I just didn't that time.

(50:45):
You know, I went all theway. I just did the full
suffer, and yeah, it wastransformative, and I'm happy to say that
it only got better from there.I actually so that moment is actually overshadowed
by a number that came out afterthat, where I'm like, wow,
I can actually go even deeper.And not only that, I got to
the point where I actually started totake ownership of that ability to sort of

(51:08):
suffer, not for its own sake. It wasn't masochism. It was just
like, you know, it waslike it just became part of what I
signed up for. It wasn't like, oh man, I have to do
the suffering to win the prize.It's like, no, the prize is
the suffering, you know, andjust being able to do something that other
people can't do and something that Icouldn't do before, and the real gift.

(51:30):
And yes it does transfer beyond becauseyou're you're training. I mean,
there's no partition, you know.The The epigraph at the front of How
Bad Do You Want? It asa line from Bryce Courtenoy's novel The Power
of wand and the and the quoteis the mind is the athlete, the
idea being like the same you thatthat has certain like you know, challenges
and and faults, you know,outside of sport, Well, you're going

(51:52):
to have the same challenges in sport. They're the same things that are going
to hold you back within sports.So like for me, like the self
work that I did as an athletechanged me as a person. But but
so that's a reward. But Iwill say, like the ultimate reward is
just the feeling. Just like likethere's a feeling that you get when you

(52:12):
are not afraid anymore, where youjust like like you just looked fear straight
in the eyes and ran right atit and it worked, you know.
And and so I got to thepoint where, you know, you know,
in high school, I once failedto show up to the start of
a race. I hid in thewoods because I was so afraid. And
you know, I got to thepoint where I remember standing on the start

(52:34):
line in my last iron Man triathlonlooking around and thinking like I can't wait,
I cannot wait to get I waslike a man going out on a
second date after like a totally awesomefirst date. You know, I mean,
it's just like this is going tobe fantastic, like ten hours of
suffering, sign me up. Andit's just it's it's just it's an incredible
feeling because you walk around with thatand it just becomes part of who you

(52:57):
are and just life is better thatway. Yeah, you're like living in
alignment with your values and who wantto be. Like I said, it's
like it's almost like this, Idon't want to say a self hatred,
but it is a little bit ofthat where you're like, I do not
want to live like this because it'snot it's not my potential or it's not
who I want to be. Soyeah, thank you so much for sharing
that. I mean, your storiesin this book alone are amazing, and

(53:20):
we have many more that we candiscover with all of your work. So
where can we find you? Iknow you have your website. Do you
want to tell our listeners where tofind you? Yeah, so my personal
website is Matt Fitzgerald dot org.If you want to find out more about
dream run Camp, it's just dreamruncamp dot com. Yeah, Glenn,
and I might go. I meanthat sounds amazing. I'd love to have

(53:43):
you. Yeah, thank you yourtime. Att. That was such an
amazing answer to that last question.Thank you so much, because like that's
what I It doesn't feel like inrunning, but I see with our people
that people like in all or nothingmindset where oftentimes someone they might be trying
for six months and then they willjust quit and then that ends up coming

(54:04):
back. Then they'll come back ayear later. Like so just the message
of almost like keep going because it'sworth it, you know, like if
you do find a way to buildthese skills and resiliencies and workarounds and coping
skills and fulfill your potential, you'llfeel so much better, you know,
So just kind of keep pushing.So thank you so much. Yeah,
there is a part of goal atthe end of the rainbow. Sometimes it's

(54:24):
just a very long rainbow, lotsof stuck to go through. Thank you
so much, Matt, Thank youGlenn. Appreciate you both. Likewise,
thank you bye, guys. Thankyou for listening to Stronger You Radio.
For more information, please visit wwwdot stronger youu dot com. Don't forget

(54:46):
to tune in next week for morehealth and nutrition conversations with Stronger You.
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