Ep 35: Sachin Chitambaran on suicide prevention: Just listen, don’t try to fix the problem

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, Welcome to Swishing Mindsets. This is an Radha and
I'm speaking to such An Chitambaran, founder of the Connect Heart.
He is a passionate mental health advocate and suicide prevention
specialist with over thirteen years of dedicated experience in the field.
Such An is also Assistant Director of Training and Development
at Samaritans Mumbai, a thirty year old suicide prevention helpline,

(00:22):
as well as President of Befrienders India, where he oversees
a network of fourteen suicide helplines operating nationwide. Hi, Sachan,
Hello Rada. Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah, fantastic to have you here.
And why don't you introduce yourself. I mean, I've done
as best as I could talk about.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Not sure how much more I can add to that.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
Essentially, I have been working in the space of suicide
prevention and mental health for like you mentioned, over thirteen
years now, and predominantly I'm not a psychologist. That is
also something that probably we should let the listeners know.
But my exposure to this field comes from the work

(01:11):
that I've done through volunteering, which started back in the UK.
So my stint with suicide prevention started with Samaritans UK,
which is one of the first suicide prevention helplines in
the world. It's a massive network spread throughout UK. I
was volunteering with them for about four years and it
is during the stint that I kind of had a

(01:35):
ground level experience of you know, what it means to
be suicidal, to have suicidal thoughts and to be in
that desperate, disconnected, hopeless, stuck place, and also how easy
it is to help someone in that space as well,

(01:55):
where without having to tell the person all these lives,
we say, right though, everything will become alright, her wrap
kebatsa and you know, or giving them multiple solutions to
a problem that is plagued by humanity, and every one
of us has those problems, and though we know the solutions,

(02:15):
we know something is stopping us from going ahead with
those solutions. So instead of trying to help in this
logical manner, just being able to listen to them, being
able to help them share a piece of them, show
acceptance to that piece, and through that the person being

(02:35):
able to start accepting themselves. This beautiful process of just
by listening to a person right that a person can
even find the hoop in themselves to continue their journey
was was, you know, a life changing moment for me,
and that's what I've tried to continue. When I came

(02:57):
back to India in twenty thirteen joined Samaritans Mumbai, where
I'm still involved. I've had the opportunity to become President
of Befrienders India, which has been fantastic to see. Look
at the work that you know, other helplines across India
are doing. And then I think to the you know,

(03:18):
three years back, while we were kind of as the world.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Dealing with the issues of COVID, was also.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
The time that I realized, Okay, the situation regarding mental
and emotional health is.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Quite quite bad.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
I mean, it's high time that people like me who
have been working in this space but are only volunteers,
right There aren't many people who are completely spending that
I'm doing this. So even yeah, till three years back,
I've also had a career you know in travel and
hospitality and everything, which was going great too. But that

(04:01):
was the time I kind of decided, Okay, probably I
cannot tell myself anymore that you know, this is my
career and this is what I like to do, so
I have to kind of mix them both finally, and
that's when I took the plunge and I started the
Connect Hut, where the mission for me is to make
mental health simple and accessible, mental health services, information, knowledge,

(04:26):
and I don't just look at Western psychological point of
view as well. We also mix in Indian philosophical elements
because at the end we understand that culturally we are
very different from West, so the same ideas concepts may
not simply translate. We have to add in factors that
make sense to us and our cultural.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Paradigms that are being played out right.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
So that's been the purpose behind the Connect Hut where
we are now into training, spreading awareness to talks. We
have counseling and mental health division as well where we
offer online affordable therapy and also listening, a free listening
service for those who may be going through distress if

(05:15):
they just want a listener, no therapy either, so you
don't have to you know, many people worry that, oh
I don't want to talk to a mental health professional,
they may just do something to my head. So if
you're just looking for a listener as well, we are
offering that three of course as well. Listening counseling. There
is some very basic basic charges sliding scale is offered.

(05:36):
So that's kind of the work I have been involved in.
I have spoken to maybe over thousands of people who
have been going through different levels of suicidal ideation, even
to the point of someone about to take their life
or taking steps to take their life. Two also having
trained over thousands of people to how to provide emotional

(05:58):
support to those.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
People who are going through emotional crisis. So I feel like.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
What I'm what I am able to provide from a
non mental health background or a psychological psychology background, is
the ground level understanding of what it translates into, and
it is from there that our trainings, our workshops are talks,
and everything kind of come out of as well.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, I like how you've taken the plunge completely because
normally it's something you do on the side.

Speaker 3 (06:28):
Right right, I mean I did it on the side
for almost ten years. So it was just now high
time I felt that, Okay, I have to stop lying
to myself that you know, this is something I just
do for fun.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Now I would want to do more of it. So
I just decided right high time I started.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
And your therapy sessions. You were just telling me before
the we started the call that it's as low as
two hundred and fifty ROO pays, you said.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
Right, So we are impanel counselors.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
Also, they are provided training and even the counselors who
join us also get free supervision. So we also ensure
that they do not have to go through any extra
financial burden for being part of it and offering such
a good rate for you know, for people. But yeah,
we offer a sliding scale for therapy sessions or anything,

(07:22):
starting at just to piece two to fifty two.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yes, obviously if you can afford more, then.

Speaker 3 (07:27):
Please do pay as per you know what you're able to,
but let not the price come in the way of
being able to take.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
Help for yourself.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
Procedure involves anyone who reaches out to us, they first
get a free session with a senior counselor just to see,
you know, what are the needs of the person and
try to assign a counselor that may be more suitable
for that person's needs.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
So we do that free of course as well.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
The first session with the counselor is also free, so
that the person gets to see, hey, how do I am?
I feeling connected to the person, Do I feel comfortable
with the person, and only then.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
Will the whole process start as well.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
So we are trying to have as holistic and comfortable
journey for the people reaching out.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
For help as well.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
And because of the work that we do, we do
receive quite a few clients who may even be experiencing
suicidal thoughts. And we have one of the few mental
health organizations who are comfortable taking on clients even with
suicidal ideation or you know, dealing with with suicidal ideations
as well.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
So, yeah, that's great because even I hear of friends,
you know, somebody would say that, okay, this one needs
help me. You know somebody are you always trying to
find the right person to recommend and usually you don't
even know of people, but then you don't you have
that one friend or she went and she said this
person was go to band or something. And what you're
saying is a preliminary call helps you decide and the

(08:50):
person decide what kind of help you need.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yes, So yeah, that's.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
It is important because we have to understand that as
mental health is the situation around mental health and mental
health professionals, the numbers are steadily improving. Also, what we
have to understand is a lot of people practically did
not go for any more mental health support post their

(09:15):
first exposure to a counselor psychologists because they didn't, you know,
they were expecting something else and they didn't get what
they wanted. There's other fears that were not addressed, maybe
or whatever other reason. But so the journey one has
to understand is just like you would pick a family doctor.

(09:36):
It's not the first physician you went to, first doctor Kipasapgai.
It probably wasn't the you know, didn't help you much.
But by the time you went to the fourth doctor,
it's the same yellow pills that they're giving. But somehow
it start it helped with this particular person, and then
you continue using that person.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
So it's in the same fashion.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
Even if you are looking for professional help in mental health,
please be open to visiting at least four or five people.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
Even if it may have.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
Helped a particular person was really good for your friend,
doesn't mean that you will also find the person equally helpful,
So be open to Because we are talking about the mind,
so there is this additional impact of do I feel
connected to the person. Do I feel comfortable talking about
really personal stuff? These are things that are going to

(10:26):
be very very private and close to my heart, you know,
my own life. So do I feel comfortable enough to
have that kind of a conversation with someone?

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Right?

Speaker 3 (10:36):
So allowing oneself to have that time is important, and
we are trying in our own way to kind of
help in that process.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
Yeah, it's important to understand that. It's like finding a
family doctor. But even there, I think these days it's
such a challenge to find a doctor who actually listens
to you. They're on in such a hurry. So, you know,
I want to talk to you such a suicidal ideation,
and you know, even I honestly don't know about it.
And since you have you here, but before that, maybe
we can talk about listening because you run your own

(11:06):
program I can call it, which is called dot listening.
And I also, you know, I want to talk to
you about how we in India listen or don't listen,
and how we are culturally because I see in families
we all come from lash families. Everybody's talking over each
other and you quickly say stuff, you know, when there's
a pause in the conversation. Even in someone because you know,

(11:28):
you want to get your point in. So so as
a culture, you know, like, how are we when it
comes to listening? How good a band? What do we
need to learn?

Speaker 2 (11:36):
All right?

Speaker 3 (11:38):
I mean to be honest, one of the most common things.
And this is more like see, there's no I wouldn't
be aware of any objective research conducted in this space.
So what I'm sharing is very anecdotal and very subjective
from my perspective.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Right, So so.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
What I what I feel as a culture and with
my love for the people of my country, is that
we we are We are a very sympathetic race in
that way when I say a lot of people also
feel sympathy is a bad thing.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
No, when I mean sympathetic race in terms of we
are very good at reading the non verbal cues of people.
There is a lot of our communication is very vibrant.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
You know, we're very sympathetic, but we're also rushing to
give solutions.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
Right, And this is where I'm coming to, right, because
it comes from our sympathetic need, from our need to
already know what the other person's problem is. Yeah, right,
Because we are so sympathetic, we are very good at
reading these nonverbal cues. We we are very expressive in
our communication as well, So it's not just the words

(12:50):
we rely on.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
We are very expressive.

Speaker 3 (12:52):
We are we intonate so much in the way, so
we are communicating a lot of feelings as well when
when we talk. So we are very good at taking
these things up. But now the thing is, we are
not quite doing this with awareness. So what is happening
I'm able to sense or we are really good at
intuitive listening in that way. So in my listening program,

(13:16):
this is one of the styles we look at intuitive
listening where the person is very good at reading the
body signs, the non verbal cues and is able to
pick Oh, this person is distressed. So what we try
to do is then try to make things better.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, like many times, you know, you see somebody who say,
you know you keep me's some mood of why are
you looking low? We go and ask that person right
so quickly.

Speaker 3 (13:38):
What we try to do is try to distract the person,
try to make the person get better, try to help
the person, try to solve the person's problem.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
Do you see now, but where is this need coming from?
I sense pain, so I need to fix it.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
So again, when I'm saying that, Okay, Indians can be
termed as who are listeners in that way, but I'm
actually the problem is that we are being quite good
in our listening, but we are not doing this with awareness.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
We are reading so many signs.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
We are very good at perceiving these things, but we
are not waiting to allow the person to globalize.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
So this would be my simple feedback, like as a race,
if I have to give one would be you know
you have sense that there is some difficulty let the
person talk.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Well as we go as far as saying that, you
know you are not aware you're not looking God, you
know you're like you're looking a little low. Maybe you're
not aware of it.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
I know better, right, So we.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
Are very confident in what we are doing and saying
because again this comes from us being so perceptive, right,
but we fail to see that. Okay, this is the
simple thing, like how we kind of address this in
the training. Our confidence need to be questioned. Is what
we have to do here. So when i'm, if I

(15:03):
were to ask you, imagine in the middle of the night,
it's dark and uh, you see someone sitting under a
poll of light and they seem to be crying, So
what will go through your mind?

Speaker 2 (15:19):
What is happening? What's the story? If I ask you,
what will you say? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Maybe they've kicked out of the house or something.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
Okay, something bad has happened and they are bad right now,
But do you see the story as already they may
have been kicked out, so some event has also come
into place.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yea everything full drum right now?

Speaker 2 (15:42):
My question to you right another is do you cry
when you're sad?

Speaker 1 (15:51):
Maybe? I think I cry over if I'm angry. Problem?

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Do you see this? This is hilarious right now? Think
about it.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
I asked you, will you cry to your sad You're
like sometimes maybe, But if.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
I'm angry, I cry. Have you ever cried when you
were happy? No?

Speaker 1 (16:10):
But if you're watching a movie and there's something very
sweet and touching, then you know you do get a
little teary.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
Right, So kushi kiyas there is this terminology itself, and
you can also cry when you're scared.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah, So what does crying mean? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (16:28):
Are you understanding right? Because when we just so crying already,
story was sad and.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
You're rushing into help, you know, right, that's your instant.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
Not even rushing into help. You've already decided something. There
is a story, and you have got the reasoning for
it and everything national for it. But when I asked you,
you yourself said, but I don't cry so much when
I'm sad. I cry more when I'm angry. Now imagine
you went to that person. That person may have been angry.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
We do We know that this is the question we
need to be able to introduce. Right. We understand that
crying is for sadness.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
But the same way, have you ever laughed when you
were angry, laughed when you were sad, laughed when you
were scared?

Speaker 2 (17:10):
You know?

Speaker 3 (17:11):
Have you gone quiet when you were angry? Quiet when
you were sad?

Speaker 2 (17:16):
Quiet? So do you see?

Speaker 3 (17:17):
These are just responses that we do over time in life.
Many of these responses get muddled up on how we
got trained in life. Right, so now what is happening?
I can cry for any of these things. So what
crying or any of these things means? Essentially the person

(17:37):
is overwhere. I don't try to define their feeling. It
When you see an emotional reaction from a person, which
can be either ways, it can be angry as well.
Because if I ask you how many times when you
are in pain you end up getting angry?

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (17:57):
Are you understanding what I'm saying? How will you up
expressing pain through anger? So if anyone were to see
you angry, will they be able.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
To see that?

Speaker 1 (18:07):
No?

Speaker 2 (18:07):
Actually, she must be in pain here? Do you understand this? Yeah,
we understand about ourselves, but we are not able to
offer it to us.

Speaker 3 (18:17):
The moment we are able to see these reactions or
responses that are happening from people is only indicative of
one thing, there is pain. Then we are able to
instead of overreacting out of our sympathy, we are able
to hold space. Then we are able to.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
Be like, the person is basically overwhelmed and you need
to hold.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
Space, hold space, let the person mentally once. So, instead
of trying to fix the person, which creates more problem,
allow the person the space.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
They themselves will end up getting fixed. You don't have
to do anything, is what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
So whoa Indians may the mother lady will Latin? So
we have some gallogy jacket.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah that's true. We can't accept help.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, but we all want to be helpful.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
We want to help and we want to make sure
that whatever we've said that personally carries it out also right,
or we.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
Get upset that you don't want to be helped.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah, exactly, but you know we're not aware of these
things and we all do it right.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
So it's so as an a to India, this is
probably just my own humble, uh, anecdotal.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Pot that I have. But yeah, regarding.

Speaker 3 (19:36):
The listening program, so the years of experience that I've
had training people in emotional support and suicide prevention intervention
is what I have used or utilized to create this
particular training where what I have seen a majority of
the you know, communication trainings that are out there on

(19:56):
a soft skill training that out there, majority of them
are focused on talking or communicating of how you're supposed
to project yourself, what you are supposed to say. And I, unfortunately,
I come from a school of thought which feels this
is actually counterproductive a bit because what it stops the

(20:17):
person from being is genuine. There are a lot of
behavior traits you end up using and developing and doing,
but what it prevents at the end of the day
is the real person.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
To come out and communicate.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
Holding making sure you're holding your hands in a particular way,
and all of those things are taking.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
Over creating a prototype.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Basically exactly, we are literally trading ourselves to be AI. Yeah,
you understanding the more.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
Information we are feeding AI to be more human like,
we are training ourselves to be more AI. So this
is where those protocols are essential and helpful. What is
I feel as the world we are going towards a
bit more on this protocol driven how to be a
rule oriented way of conversation instead of actually utilizing the humanity,

(21:08):
the humanness that we already possess. So I come from
a school of thought that we were all excellent listeners
as kids, excellent listeners. What ruined us was our training
on how to be And because listening is such a well,

(21:31):
the irreplaceable part of your life, we almost take it
for granted because we feel communication and talking and everything
is what is going to give me a good career,
we completely miss out on the impact listening.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
To us. Over forty five percent of our day we
spend is listening.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
When we say communication, we mean talking and expressing your thoughts.
That's what communications are exactly.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
And unfortunately, what happens many times even with psychologists when
I'm not trying to diss anyone for this matter, but
only coming from a theoretical background. Many times you will
also psychologists or anyone I talk to them, right, I'm like,
how do your friends if you ever tell them how
are you feeling? Do they not shout at you? Be like,
be my friend right now. I don't want a counselor

(22:17):
you should understand this that this is your training coming
in the way of you being you right, So to
address this, what we what we have done is a
behavioral component of our training is literally the last two days.
So we have a forty hour training which is normally
distributed over six to seven days, but over sixty percent

(22:40):
of the training is.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Built on self awareness.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
It is about identifying components, parts of new values in
new biases and new emotional your emotional responses. So going
from the Indian philosophical matter of going from subtle to gross.
So first we try to address the value systems, beliefs
and things that you have. Theoretically, when we are talking
about something, we need to all speak of the same thing,

(23:04):
so we make sure that clarity of that language needs
to happen. And only after this self awareness, what Anurada
will get from the training is going to be very
different from someone else, because ada will be able to
hear identify, Oh, these are the areas that I'm good at.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
These are the areas that I need to.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
Work on, which may be very different and even opposite
for someone else.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
So self awareness.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
So how we plan our training is first there is
theory or understanding of clarity of the concept. Second, insight
building around it. So through thought, exercises, discussions, in depth discussions, debates, arguments,
we try to get a deeper insight into what these
things mean. Then we look at the application of it.

(23:50):
So if this is what it means, then what does
it look like in my life? Because otherwise this translation,
if it doesn't happen. You are really good at theoretically
good at a subject, but you are.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Not able to practice it. So the third step we
look into the application of it.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
And finally fourth is once you've understood the application, now
you have to practice it. Now you have to work
on it like a muscle, and that we do through
role plays and practices like that, and essentially post that
you are able to see that. Okay, now you don't
have to sound like a good listener. You can objectively
say or see an experience, you have become a better listener.

(24:28):
If that makes the difference.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, because you're aware of it now exactly.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
And we call it the dot listening because also how
we go about this entire thing is by creating a
simple framework. We are saying there is some theory, but
we don't expect people to remember stuff. We want this
to be something more natural. So we have come up
with a very simple framework. We look at normally, what
we say, we look at things from two sides. Right,

(24:54):
everything has two sides. We try to look at things
from four sides. So, uh, if physics skagarak example, they
can to know exactly anything or to find out anything
at any point.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Right.

Speaker 3 (25:11):
In this example, let me see to find out ada
verma kahape hair. For me to know this, I need
four pieces of information, which is I need to know
your latitude, I need to know the longitude. I need
to know who it is that I want to find out,
and I need to know the time at which they
will be present. Right, So if I know at two

(25:36):
thirty pm IST at this latitude this longitude will be present,
then I am able to pinpoint exactly.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Is that making sense? So in the same fashion, What
we do is we break down everything into its four
basic components. So, for example, when you are listening to something,
you're essentially when you're communicating and listening, you're talking about
a message that is being transferred between two people. As

(26:06):
a very very basic model of communication, okay, transactional model.

Speaker 3 (26:10):
Both Imagine a piece of message is being transferred between
the Now if we have to look at it in
this manner, what does this piece of message consist of?
And that we can break down into four parts. Which
is first, factual information. These are information that can be transferred.

(26:31):
Will be sensory information that is transferred. Second is thoughts
and meaning whatever information there is. I also have a
relationship about thoughts and meaning about it. Third, the emotional
state of the person. Where how is their mood right now?
How are they intense? Low, high, medium, jobehead? And fourth

(26:53):
is their feelings. These are four components that they are
sharing at any given part point of time. The aim
of DOT listening is imagine if you were to draw
an X axis and a yaxis, and if you placed
these four components on the edge of each of those axes,

(27:14):
are you able to visualize somewhat like now, yes, yes,
on the X axis, imagine factual information and emotional state,
and on the y axis, imagine thoughts on the top
feelings on the bodom. Right now, what happens is for
me to understand this information completely, depending on whether the

(27:35):
person is sharing more.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Of whichever component I need to be able to get
it right. And the point at which I have access
to all of these four pieces of information.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
Is that intersection. Do you see that X and Y
axis the point of contact. If mentally I am there,
then I will be the most open to.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
Receive all these four pieces of information equally. And this intersection, if.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
You notice, is a dot, right, Yeah, So the aim
of dot listening is so you have heard of balanced
or centered listening, but imagine centered in the point of
four directional centering, so that you're able to see all
the components that the person is able to do that's
focused on, that focused, so that that is essentially the

(28:27):
idea behind dot listening.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
And so we break this down in terms of the
listening components.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
We break it down in terms of the values that
are needed, the emotional responses that are needed, the behavioral
techniques that are needed. Everything will be on this grid,
making it as simple and easy for you to just
go through the entire thing and you don't even have
to remember it because now it's just in a grid
and it just stays with you.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, like you're saying, and then it becomes a muscle
memory before you. Yeah. So you want workshops, I know,
I mean a Gatsuo Foundation had shared that you'll be
holding one. But is this only offline or do you
do this online as well?

Speaker 3 (29:07):
For Doutlessly, we do both online and offline. We just
completed one batch just about two weeks back. We are
planning to have I was I'm grateful to others organized
that the foundation because they reached out because they wanted
this training to be made available in their community as well. So, uh,

(29:30):
that's how we are doing an offline session for them.
Most often them is online because people from across the
country can then access it.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
Because I remember seeing it now, oh I wish it
was online.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
In fact, by the end of this month, we will
be coming up with an online batch as well. So
we are just preparing the dates and you know, the
resources around it, and we should be coming up shortly
on our social media with the new dates for the
online batch as well.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
So what happens is, you know, because you said you
have trained, they become trainers of facilitators or something. I'm
not sure, just correct me. But what does one do
after doing this workshop?

Speaker 2 (30:09):
So this this is a full flight training, it's over
forty hours.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
It has been also approved by Board of Studies uh
in Jinjala College where we have added this as a
value added course as well, and we are also looking
in other colleges as well.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
So essentially, see my question to you will be bill good?
Will you being a better listener help you in your life?

Speaker 3 (30:34):
That's the question. Right now, let have a more role
to play for for example, a psychologist. Sure, because they're
in they're profession involved, but we think that the psychologist
has more has more to do with listening than all
the other regular people. We all depend on listen. So
if you understand the components of it, you can use

(30:56):
it for yourself.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
As you want it.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
Actually, even a pair with the child exactly right.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
So because the people that come to us many times,
even if they are psychologists or mental health professionals, they
don't share that oh now my client relationship is better.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
What they talk about is my listening has improved.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
So this is impacting my family, my friends, my career,
all of this area. So we are not looking at
a particular because this is what is happening right on
our communication trainings and workshop to be a better salesman,
to be a better counselor to be a better this
or that. So what we fail to see is when

(31:35):
you have such a focused approach, you're only going to
work on one or two muscles. Now, imagine if you're
practicing really hard to be a salesman, you're making so
much effort and practice in developing that type of conversational
skills or listening skills. Are you sure that it will
not translate in your family life? Are you understanding what

(31:59):
I'm saying? I am so understand. What you are going
to practice will become a Habit will become part of
your personality.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, your personality changes.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Right, So when least say these things and then we
are just like, I'm only going to learn how to
move this finger.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
So this is what I'm talking about. We need a
more holistic approach towards listening. That's what we feel we
are focused on. We are not focused on you being
a better salesman or counselor anything maybe for if you
are trying to become a better salesman, you may need
to be a better critical listener and a better intuitive listener.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
I think so because it helps because then you know
what your client is that actually wants.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
Right, But if you understand that this is for intuitive listening,
I need to work on these areas in me for
critical listening, I need to work on these areas. For
factual listening. I need to work on these areas for
supportive listening. I need to work on these as. Now,
what you're doing is you're trying to learn the cycle
as a whole, right, so it can have problems in

(32:58):
the pedal, So you know when to push the pedals faster,
you know when to break it appropriately, you know when
to move the handle appropriately.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
So don't just learn how the tire works, you know,
is my my my thought process behind it. So it's
a skill really that you're picking up.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
Essentially exactly right, Like you're not for such an I
am just emotionally, what kind of a silly thing, you know,
I'm just very emotional and I'm no, that's because you
are not working on it.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yeah, and you can tweak it right exactly whatever degree
that is required in a situation.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
Right, So we we we we as a population, mean,
we have heard of neuroplasticity. We understand that brain keeps
changing till we die. So all this humburg about this
kind of a conclusion is what is creating the issue,
this labeling that we are doing. Instead of that, if
you are able to see, okay, this is my skill set,

(33:59):
what can I work to improve it? Then it's a
very different game.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
No, absolutely, I'm glad you told us in some detail.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
Happy.

Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah, So you know, coming to the suicide helpline, what
does it look like? I mean to put it very
you know, basic like what is a day in the
life of you know, when you're on there and.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
You're doing that? Okay, So I mean again, a suicide
preventional plane.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
It's not like this doom bloom gray uh, you know
space that one may think because as soon as we say,
many time people who want to join us also don't
tell their family or other people because they are like,
if I tell them I'm going for a suicide prevention helpline,
then they'll be like, Paga, Lika, what are you doing?

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Trico life my problem come?

Speaker 3 (34:45):
Heca to do So all of this kind of there's
again this negative connotation and stigma attached to it.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
But funny enough, we are very happy, very happy, boisterous.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
Bunch of people. In terms of uh that a community.
They're a very understanding, open, dark sense of humor. You know,
it's a very very vibrant community of people. And anyone
I have seen who has been part of us, uh,
you know, majority of them are still in touch. Those

(35:17):
who are ex volunteers, anyone who has been part of
the you know, has has shared some time with us,
they are still part of us in WhatsApp communities, things
we do and also nobody leaves.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
Well, if you like you sit in a room, there
are a bunch of you sitting in a room and handling.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Hand It can be.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
But lately with snatans, for example, we have gone remote
since the COVID time has happened, so we don't have
to be at the center. But yeah, that is something
that we do, and we we get phone calls. We
could get people visiting us. That has been stopped now.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
So how many of you are there the network, like
you know, at any given point, how many are there.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
Again depends on the number of volunteers we can have.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
We can have as high as five, two even sometimes two,
so that that is completely on and.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
How many calls you begin to get it like any
time of the day or night.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
What is it like?

Speaker 3 (36:07):
Unfortunately, again, because it all comes down to volunteering, right,
if we don't have enough volunteers, we would ideally want
to be a twenty four seven help line. But again
depending on the number of volunteers we get. We are
currently functioning for about seven hours a day every day.
So between these seven hours we can expect fifteen to

(36:28):
twenty calls on many right, yeah, and I mean the
point is we will we can get even more calls.
Some days we will not get that many. Some days
it can be completely quiet. So all of those things.
So on average, I would say fifteen we can get
in about six seven hours. And again these calls do
not have any restrictions like that every call has to

(36:50):
be thirteen minutes.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Or one hour.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
Calls can go for hours as well, and calls can
finish in five minutes as well.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Calls are like, I mean, you know, somebody trying to
you know, end their life or is it just that
they just have a problem they want to talk.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
So anyone who calls us.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
They can call even if they are distressed, if they're
going through they are despairing, they are depressed, or even
if they are having suicidal thoughts. So it's not necessary
that the people who call us will have to have
suicidal thoughts. So we don't want to put any restrictions.
If you are going through a tough time, please we'll
free to call us. However, we are also open to

(37:30):
people who have suicidal thoughts, who are dealing with thoughts
of killing themselves, dying, and in various stages of it.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Some of them may be in the planning state.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
Some of them may call us even when they have
almost taken the steps or have begun taking the.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Steps, they may still call us. So across that board
we are open to all.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
But that's such a huge responsibility really.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
I mean again, the point is you can look at
it as two ways, right.

Speaker 3 (38:02):
So, for example, as part of our training as well,
what we see ourselves are not these saviors because that
will become a big responsibility.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
We are not trying to be gods. What we are
trying to be are like those ambulance drivers.

Speaker 3 (38:17):
Right when you are talking about an ambulance driver, would
you say that oh big responsibility job or any sort.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
If we don't even think about them, it's the same
thing for us.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
We don't get any credit or any not that I'm
complaining about it, but understand that this is what we
have to be prepared for. That this is a job
that not many people will want to do. This is
a job that we may not even have someone living
at the end of the call, they may even die.
Will you still be open to work? Will you still

(38:46):
be there to help people who are in pain? And
when we talk about helping, it's not about giving them
money or telling them everything will be all right here.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
They go up.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
So we don't try to do these platitudes. What we
are there like one of the founder of Samaritans was
Reverend Chad Barrack. He left his pastorship as well to
do this full time. The way he describes it, we
suffer with our callers.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
Two. We don't offers illusion or anything. But what we
do is we suffer with them.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
Is beyond empathy in a way.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Right, So again, do you see? So the aim is
not then to me I have to start trying or
hurting myself or anything like that. But when a person
is suffering being able to still be there is a
very difficult thing. We don't have the earlier what we
shared about how we try to help the person and
distract and all of that listening inlaws, not doing all

(39:49):
of these still being there the worst case scenario that
we are trying to avoid for the person, understanding that
that is already there.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
In the purse.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
That when you're listening to them, it's not that we
are going to get the person into a darker place
now that we have to reach into the darkest of
their places and be there with them.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
So that's that very.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
Counterintuitive thought process we need to have so very different.
And again, you don't need to be a psychologist or
a psychiatrist or any is to be a good listener
like this.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Anyone can be a you know, an supportive listener like that.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
And it just means you know, looking at yourself that
much more clearly and then working on it.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
Yeah, and such an Yes, you shared some figures that
workshop that I attended that you took, and you said
that India as a suicide capital in the world. Right.
I told a couple of people and they're like, what
have we knew? It was a diabetes capital? But suicide capital.
People don't know that. And also some other figures that
you shared. You said that women twenty six thousand housewives

(41:08):
in a year commit suicide and while men commit suicide,
I mean in larger numbers, women attempt it more. And
then you also said that girls under eighteen is higher
than boy Yeah, and you mentioned endometriosis and all that.
So I've said a bunch of things, but I'll let
you take it.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Off, you know. Okay, So that's like literally one workshop
of mine that you have.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
Yeah, because yesterday I got a lot of points, you know.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
Yeah, it was anything. Did anything out of this standout
for you? Anything that you personally connected with?

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Like what you said just now again, you said that
you know that person is that you know you're trying
to I mean, I'm paraphrasing that you're trying to save
them from reaching that worst uh part of their whatever existence,
but it's already there in them. Like you compare it
to a burning room, right, you said, they already have
that burning room. You can't save them from that. You

(42:01):
have to kind of join them.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
There exactly, but knowing fairly well that when you're entering
that space in the burning room, it is their burning room.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
That fire has no eat you. Yeah, right, but still
going into it allows the person to first hand see it.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
And another line you said there, you said that nobody
wants to kill themselves and we say that, oh, they're
so brave, but you said that, you know, it's when
your pain of living is greater than your fear of
death or something like that.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
Yeah, so over here as well. But we have to
So there's quite a few things that you mentioned there, right.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
So first we can maybe start with that were the
suicide capital.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
Didn't know that?

Speaker 3 (42:47):
Sure, we are the suicide capital in the world. So
how do we how do we what what is suicide
capital the world? May the country with the highest number
of suicides in the world, it's not that profit side,
it's why it is suicide capital. Now, many arguments that
come up, as obviously boy Hugana, because India is the

(43:10):
highest populated country in the world. So why are we
so surprised. The surprise is not in this. We were
already the suicide capital over five years. Right, We have
been over a suicide capital for many years. We became
the highest populated country just last year, okay, right, and

(43:34):
even now to address this it's the rate at which
we are doing because if we have to look at
it highest population head, then it should proportionately be high.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
So let's see if it is.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
Because when we are saying we are the highest populated
country in the world, we are eighteen percent of the
world's population money, but we contribute to twenty six percent.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Of the world suicides.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yeah, it doesn't match.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
This doesn't match, right, So let's throw that argument out
of we are the highest population and address that there
is a problem. Right, it's not like by law of
averages to why should we pay attention because that is
what it feels like.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah, that we are thinking that yet obvious everything.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah, this is a very absurd logic that we are
operating on, and it is I believe it is coming
out of the fear and stigma that we are just
keeping our eyes closed that as long as my I
have kept my eyes closed, the problem doesn't exist. When
we say that we are the suicide capital of the world.

(44:45):
Let's look at the implication. We are talking about around
one like seventy thousand people dying annually, right, and this
has been happening for and we have lost as a
country over one lacked citizen to suicide since two thousand
and eight. How many lacks is it till now? Yeah,

(45:12):
I doubt there is any other illness, epidemic, pandemic, or
any such thing that can even match these numbers.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Right, It's that bad when.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
We compared it to accidents as well, right.

Speaker 3 (45:24):
Right, I mean to the latest number of accidents that
we have road accident debts.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Road accident deaths are on par with suicides suicide debts.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
I'm not talking about attempts suicide deaths, one like seventy
thousand road accident debts, one like seventy thousand suicide deaths.
The year before twenty twenty one, we in fact was
the first year suicide deaths were more.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
Than road accident debts.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
And if you'll actually consider the underreporting that happens and
in suicide underreporting with look, it was not a suicide,
it was accident, it was this, it was by mistake
or heart attack, and all of these lies that we do.
The actual number is somewhere around two like fifty thousand,
two laps fifty, so it is already higher than the

(46:13):
number of road accidents deaths. And how many road accident
deaths were actually suicides We don't question that how many
train accident debts were actually suicides.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
We don't question that. So what I'm hoping that people
are able to see the condition is quite bad.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
Yeah, it's almost ridiculous the way we have put our
heads in the sand like an ostrich that we are
just not addressing this. Our suicide National Suicide Prevention Strategy
only came up in twenty twenty two November. We were
capital of suicide for past five six years? Are you

(46:53):
understanding what I'm just saying? And still now the work
that needs to be done, we have not gone much
ahead in legislation in terms of the services that we
need to do, the awareness that we need to do,
we have very far behind.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
So this is what we are dealing with in the world.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
W I mean with such a high number of suicides
is what it is also indicative of is that there
is a high level of mental health issues in the country.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Who in some.

Speaker 3 (47:23):
Report almost says that almost fifty percent of our country
is dealing with mental health issues. Almost fifteen million people
in India are considered to be dealing with comorbidity of
mental health issues.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
But do you think there's somewhere woken up to it.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
What you're talking about cities in the very.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Cities, because we hear so much around mental health.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Again depends on the circle you're part of.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
Yeah, I remember twenty years ago, yes, reading that, you know,
depression and things that are going to fifty of the population.
I remember laughing at it could come on. I still remember,
you know, how is that going to happen?

Speaker 2 (48:07):
But are Yeah, this has been my experience.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Right while I was volunteering at Samaritan's UK, I was thinking, yeah,
this is a problem.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
Of the gods.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
Yeah, yeah, Western problem because when I'm listening to them,
I was thinking so much loneliness, so much disconnection I'm experiencing.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
And I felt that this is the cultural.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
This is symptomatic of the culture where it is individualistic
culture where people want to live in their own silos
and you know, have that individualistic approach to things.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
And I was like, India met.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Yeah, but you can be lonely even in a crowded room.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
Now this is what I had not given myself. Yeah,
this is my naivety right.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
Where I was thinking this is so in India. This
is a non issue. Connections are post upon you. How
can you be disconnected? But when I came back to India,
and you know, I felt like connecting to suicide prevention,
is there some space like that in India as well?
And I saw that Samatans is there as well, and

(49:23):
I started looking at the numbers and that I was shocked.
I was absolutely sure, and I was shocked more about
how nicely hidden it is. We almost feel bad if
we don't get nominated as the happiest country in the world.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
I feel sometimes that is how much we project.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
But then when you're looking at the hardcore reality, the
number on the ground, the truth is anything. But this
is reflective of pain, This is reflective of disconnection. This
is reflective of isolation, helplessness, hopelessness. And we are all

(50:08):
putting a plaster of smile on our face, be fake.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
So you see. Yeah, right, So.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
Again this is why we in our trainings as well,
we try to keep things extremely honest, extremely to the
ground as well. We are not here too. Oh, let's
understand psychology and mind and the components and this that
and everything.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
No, I mean what what.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
I'm not looking to get you to write a paper
on it. I want you to be able to do
something in your life, be able to help yourself or
someone in your life, and that won't come just from theory.
So this is this is why we kind of focus
so much on real life experiences.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
And things like that.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
So what do you think if we come to the why,
what is the reason? Like, you know, like people are
leading lives of like quiet desperation. It looks like right,
so what is happening?

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Right?

Speaker 3 (51:07):
It's a suicide is a sign of a symptom of pain,
and we are talking about it's it's when it has
become extreme, the pain has become unbearable for the person.
But understand that to reach unbearable pain, there was still
a journey. So first and foremost being able to ask

(51:30):
for help, not just be in this help giving mentality.
I think as a culture we need to start looking
at help receiving mentality. In fact, research done where they
found that South Asian men are the worst in the
world in terms of getting help.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Because women, I think largely they don't really focus on themselves.
They focused on everybody else in the house.

Speaker 3 (52:04):
Exactly because again this is the training, right and again
not just women, okay, men as well. We are all
trained to look at pain and be open to it,
that doing it for the community, for world and everyone
else is what your purpose is, even if you don't
have the capacity. Even if you don't if you're not

(52:24):
able to, nobody taught us. If you're not able to,
then first focus on yourself. Yeah right, all of these

(52:44):
ridiculous arguments come in our minds. So first and foremost
being able to ask, start asking for help, develop the connections.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
That is probably even just the idea of putting yourself first,
whether it's men or women in India, just putting yourself
first ahead of everything else.

Speaker 3 (53:03):
Right, But do you see this has a selfish connotation? Yeah,
it does, yes, So we need to understand what does
this being self putting self first means, because otherwise a
lot of people behave selfishly and they will.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
Say this yeah, yeah, no, That's why I'm saying it
because you know, for Indians it's an alien concept because
you're being selfish.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
Yes, because there is they do see it, They do
see people behaving selfishly, right, so there is also this
over correction that we are scared of.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
So let's try to understand what this means working for
self as well. Right now?

Speaker 3 (53:33):
Over year, what we need to understand is not do
things for me and stuff like that. It is first
about understanding boundaries set. It is about knowing when to
say no. Normally how boundary setting you the key? It
is to keep bad people out. Good people have all access.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
This is the problem. What instead, what you need to
have is boundary setting means this is my limit.

Speaker 3 (54:00):
This is my emotional subcopna Daruka limit path, your Kanaga
limit path, emotional limit, vental limit.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
So what do I mean by that?

Speaker 3 (54:11):
If I have been feeling low emotional, I've been feeling
like I'm a burst.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
Up and things like that. I can sense emotionally I
am challenged, but I just label it as I'm sensitive.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
No, what do you mean is you need to be
asking for help. You need to be able to ventilate.
Who are the people you can reach out to? This
you need to know because if you're not able to
do that, what happens when someone else comes to you?
Problemial life?

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Man? And you're right because you are not able to
say no, but you are not able to handle it. No,
this is my limit. Boundary setting means knowing your limits.
Right now, I'm in, I have mid level energy, high
level energy. Feel free. No problem, but mid level pay

(54:58):
head to start being cautious, low level pay head and
look at replenishing yourself before helping anymore people.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
What do you say when somebody comes to you for
help and you don't have the energy?

Speaker 2 (55:09):
I say no, that's the way.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
I can't even imagine it. That's why I'm asking you exactly.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
You see we think that yeah, huh, but I who
know the right?

Speaker 3 (55:25):
There is no better word or no. The point is
when you say no, you have to mean so. In
this case, someone is calling me and I've been working NonStop.
Someone has called out or messaged me, Hey, such a
new free I need to talk. I'll be like, hey,
right now, I had a very long day.

Speaker 2 (55:42):
Is it okay? If we talk tomorrow?

Speaker 3 (55:43):
Tomorrow I can I have two hours from eleven o'clock
happy to have a nice long conversation. But today I
feel I'm a bit all over the place.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
But I can feel that guilt already. But they need
you right now now.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
I'll ask you something in I'll ask you something in return.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
If you were to reach out to a friend and
if they had a tough day, would you rather be
honest with you or would you rather they lie?

Speaker 2 (56:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (56:09):
I'd rather they be honest with me, could kill each other.
But maybe if I'm to talk right now, maybe I
need to talk right now.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
But then if your friend is having a bad.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
Day today, then no, yeah, obviously no, you would you
rather they tell you or not tell I'd rather they
say it.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Are you sure about that?

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Yeah? I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
Then I understand give this benefit of doubt to the.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Other unto yourself.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
Basically, right, so when you're saying that, you don't have
to be like ampas called no, this is not what
no means. No means hey, I can see that it
could urgent care. You can even check that.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
I had a bit of a rough day. I mean,
if I speak now, I feel like I can only
give you about.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
You're basically not just saying no.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
You're saying not right now, not right now. And what
you can do is tell them what can happen instead.
You don't just have to leave it at that note.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
Yeah, you can say, hey, right now, I've got ten
things that I'm in between, my kids shouting over my
head and everything is going up and down. So methoda hassle.
How about after four hours? Do you think this can
wait for about four hours.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
With you.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
Yes, you've hurt the person. That's what you're saying. You
hurt the person, but not at your best. Yeah works,
why not?

Speaker 3 (57:33):
Because I'm in no say problem. But let me tell
you the ulta of this. What happens if you still
say yes. If you still say yes, I assure you
the listening that you're offering is going to be of
a poorer quality. You will be more snappy, you will
be more judgmental, you will be more solution driven, you

(57:54):
will be more instigative, and you will also want to
think when will this call it right?

Speaker 2 (58:01):
Yes? Communicate?

Speaker 3 (58:05):
Yeah, And because you're so tired, you will not be
able to stop yourself from that mask very off. Are
you understanding what I'm saying? So you're not actually helping
as well? You're only telling yourself men, and I'm a
good person. Now you're being a terrible listener right now.
Just be honest with yourself.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
So this is a consolant session for me. That was
not supposed to happen.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
But imagine right like, the person is needing something urgently
and you do not have this space.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
If you do something now, isn't it more risky? No?

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Absolutely? Because I was thinking of friends polices and yeah,
I can't listen to you. I mean, I just can't
imagine they I assure you, I'm sure of it too,
right Trooom, Yeah I am. You're not at your best,
so I don't have to look my best.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
And it is oky.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
And this thing that you have no four am friend
and two am friend and all that, that's what it is.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
But sometimes you have to understand I will not be
fresh or feeling it at four am. And there is
absolutely no problem letting my friend find out.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
Yeah, and that's true. So you know, talking about women,
you've already said that you know, men and women we
all have the same pressures, but this young girls. And
we said not same, but yeah, we have pressures.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
Let's say we have our fights, they're separately, we have them.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
Yeah, but you said, you know, two things jumped out
at me. That one that women make most attempts at
suicide and also for young girls, and you mentioned endometrios.
So I was curious about that. I couldn't hear that
part yesterday properly.

Speaker 3 (59:44):
Right, So yesterday the session you attended, there was a
question raised on women and mental health.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
So over there we wanted to first look at the
numbers as well.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
We saw that seventy percent of suicide in India is
by men and thirty center by women. This number does
not necessarily mean that there is only mental health issues
with men and women are fine.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
What we also see is that there is higher number
of attempts done by women, but more number of men
are dying.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
This is also happening.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
In part to do with alcohol drug consumption as well,
because one third of suicides in India are also attributed.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
To alcohol and drugs. So what do I mean by that.
I'm not saying it's the way.

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
It's a complex mixture of coping mechanisms that men tend
to use than women. It's a complex mechanism of risk
factors and protective factors that men have and women have.
Other than coping mechanism, how are they able to express
and have What is the relationship they have with their
own emotions, their own self identity and worth.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
So a lot of these things kind of play a
part in this.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
What we are seeing is the situation for women. But
twenty six thousand women have died. And when we say
to twenty six thousand, it's not women, it's housewives. The
actual number of women is higher. The number of housewives
that died was twenty six thousand, which is higher than
even farmers. So normally we take trend to think that

(01:01:15):
those suicides are only a problem with farmers or who
or people or things like that. No, it's across the spectrum,
across age, brackets, across genders, any demographic that you want
to look at. And this we also see high number
of suicide rates amongst children, female children below eighteen years

(01:01:37):
of age. What we observe is the number of suicides
is more amongst girl children than boys boys. And again,
when we look at causes, we have to understand that
causes of suicide is not limited to the situational things
that happen in that person's life. A lot more to
do with biology, a lot more to do with them,

(01:02:01):
that environment, that nutrition, all of these things play a
part in one's mental health. And when these things are
not addressed, for example, how sensitive are other female children.
Imagine earlier a few years back, not few years, some
years back, the menstruation period for girls would start around

(01:02:24):
thirteen fourteen years of age. But now the globally that
has fallen down to seven eight. Yeah, nobody knows this
nobody talks about this. What is the impact of getting
periods early? When you were getting it on fourteen years
of age? Was it comfortable, easy, good, convenient or Horrendis

(01:02:49):
there completely.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
Because by that time somebody has had a talk with you,
you're aware of it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
What is happening to that eight year old seven year
old girl who's had a child, who's helping her out
and the pain and many times what we fail to
see is these emotional changes the girl will need to
be will need a lot more support as well during
this time. But then having a conversation, does the father

(01:03:16):
know this as well other than just okay, a yeah,
So disconnect with the father, you see, so being able
to see that, no, the life is still not what
it used to be back in the days. Life has changed.

(01:03:39):
We need to make some changes in our lives. The
girl child, it's not like now the family has fifteen people.
So every child adult hair.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
Connection.

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
Now we have two people or one person in the house,
both are working. Who's connecting with the child?

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Right? So with the girl child, and again we also see.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
A common problem is endometriosis, which is a highly painful
thing that females can end up having, which is to
do with their menstruation as well.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
In this condition it is unbearable pain.

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
I don't know how else to put it, and being
a male saying it is even more weird, right, but
and it affects over twenty percent of females. How many
of us us? How many of the females complain about
like this, excruciating pain? They feel helpless during these times
they are not able to move and things like that.
Is anyone taking them to the doctor getting checked? Is
there something more to be done than giving them some

(01:04:39):
push pee and other things, or telling them that this
is the life of a female and you just have
to bear with it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
What nonsense.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
There are so many technology signs that we have come
to a point that we don't need to be really.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
Having to go through such discomforts unnecessarily.

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
So this is where because if a person you have
to understand, simple thing, If a person has to endure
pain for a long period of time, it will affect
them mentally.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
As well. This is not rocket science.

Speaker 3 (01:05:12):
Similarly, you know, female when they move go ahead in
their lives pregnancy, around pregnancy, these big changes happen again.
Hormonal cyclone happens again many times. It leads to postpartum
prepartum or partum depression female and what are the symptoms
going to look like the female? The mother doesn't want

(01:05:33):
to come close to the child, almost doesn't feel like
touching the child.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
There's a lot of uh anger, frustration, things like that
also coming out.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
Mm yeah, you say, sanscar. I mean, how ridiculous you
In one one statement you say, ma, ma, the yeah,
all this nonsense you kind of say as well, and
then in the second thing you say, yeah, y or children.

(01:06:12):
So instead of them taking her to a Bengali and
giving a jadu and all this nonsense, can you please
take her to a doctor, someone who knows their stuff.
If you think that this doctor couldn't tell, take her
to a different one hard issue at the best doctor
for your second best, third best in the second opinion,

(01:06:33):
third opinion, because it's so yes, up to doctor, doctor bold, madam,
sir yeah, co stress.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
Head sorry stress doctor.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
True yeah right, meditation patch toilet penny by your phone,
giving a concert meditation ups, they go whole level guy up, Yes,
I look bad, but I am a bad Your meditation okay, yes,
just that is no meditation. So first and foremost, stop

(01:07:20):
lying to yourself, be able to we have this honest conversation. Okay,
I need help get it and men women across the board,
we are facing it. We have to look at and
then further ahead. In women we have menopause that comes
in again, a different cyclone that is happening. Mothers are
not talking to their sons about it. Keep I lately,

(01:07:41):
I have been feeling weird and awkward, or I have
been mean to you or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
Much. I'm very batters if I think unique.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
That's very true.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Yeah, So what I've experienced per certinly is being able
to have these conversations. Have found it to be more enriching,
have found them to be more empowering.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Right, And the more we keep them in darkness, we
are inviting mental health issues.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
But do we know why housewives I'm just you know,
you said it's even more than farmers. Do we have
any idea.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Housewives up they club? I mean the pressure that is there.
See the pressure there is pressure on.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
Them to be a housewife, a good housewife, and being
a good housewife not just taking care of the family,
but Marx become.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
Marksmith. Check they can.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
You you're the one in the house and the kid
is not doing well, so anything.

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):
R classes cancer. So this, this kind of expectation is
provided done on the person. Then there is also the
feminist wave there. Now I'm not saying see, you have
to look at it from both perspectives. Right, there is
the need for women to also want to have a
career and get out and step out and all that.

(01:09:12):
But then there is also an alternative thing that those
who choose to be the housewife or our houses are
also looked down upon.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
Very true, even by other women.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
So across the board. So understand that, key, our decide
our value, kiss.

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
And maybe their own self worth comes down. Now forget
other people.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
So we have to be able to see that there
is work in anything that the person is doing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
It's not even about kes a career, eat, and I know,
maybe a system that works very well for that relationship
that couple.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
Who are we to tell anyone how to live their
life of course, right, So it's these societal u.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
Narratives that we create, right and key, Okay, that woman
has to work, no, if she didn't want to work, yeah,
but why not? Yeah Mary neighbors college? So yes, can
the person feel bad about it as well? Especially when

(01:10:16):
there is no validation or anything effort or shown, appreciations
shown for their work every day, which is easy over.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
So the basic need human being needs is for it
for their work. They're pain to be witnessed for their
efforts to be bitiness who are campier career.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
Yeah, to be seen and heard basically, and if.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
The person doesn't feel that way, guess what you will
have issues we have we are facing when we are
talking to families. One of men are not going to
home because they are scared. Their wifis shout, I'm talking
about real issues. Ye on the mental translate reply the
head come in, come in.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
It should be to clocking you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
They're saying.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
It's just toxic. It's just to on the toxic environment.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
But the who's going to make the first step? Yeah,
you are awarding home. Now what is the wife's perspective?

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
That's true, everything's fallen on her, but he is avoiding her.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Nico, Yeah, right, you have name is go punished in
May tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
They don't listen to me. I have to do this
and you're not around.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
So do you understand the ground level things that we
are and anything you're avoiding is being do mental health
issues everything.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):
Yeah, someone has to take the first step, as you said, and.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
Yeah, and begin this conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):
I'm getting ridiculous statements like, oh, my wife tells me
that I'll kill myself if you don't give me a necklace.
I'm like, you're hearing suicide, but you're not here. You're
hearing necklace, but you're not hearing suicide.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
Brother. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:12:39):
So we are fundamental, fundamentally looking at situational problems. What
we need to look at is the human being behind it, gender,
whatever it may be.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
There is a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):
Men can do a lot, women can do lot, kids
can do a lot, old people can do as long
as we start doing so knowing that the other is
advantage basic cheese to shy.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):
Everybody is trying to survive.

Speaker 3 (01:13:28):
Mari agenda. I don't care what is happening in Palestine
and Gaza. Now, will I become a bad person for that?

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):
That, I honestly only have time to be worried about
my family right now? Am I losing social credibility currency
because now I don't have an opinion on any of
these hot topics.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:13:56):
So asking the basic question, give at first and common
if you're looking to help yourself your family, tell a
family Palestine, Gaza, India before that matter is right?

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):
Now?

Speaker 3 (01:14:09):
Should be second? Are you connected to your family? Are
they your priority? Do you have a healthy connection with them?

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
Building?

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
But you have more issues with what is happening in
another country than your priorities are very remastered.

Speaker 2 (01:14:25):
Up what's happening in Bollywood. Prior people are so concerned
priority or the people at such any connection here.

Speaker 3 (01:14:53):
You need people who are present in your life, not
on social media, not in in in some a place
in your life.

Speaker 2 (01:15:01):
Who are these?

Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
Yeah? So you know that's what it is like right now.
I mean I have friends who are younger and they
all say that they have long standing friendships just exchanging
reals and memes with each other and the friendship so
called friendship will carry on.

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
I can't understand the modern day friendship, so the idea
being key, I have friendships like that. Now. The point
is we are moving towards a digital world.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
I am already now getting things from people that okay,
just message you know, these are the things that we hear.

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
Don't call uh a very important head of message.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):
Somebody had put out WhatsApp status which I love, they said, kid,
don't ask when you can call, just called, right.

Speaker 3 (01:15:46):
And then there are the people, Uh, there's people as
well who are more used to know your bath. Your
message message can kill because in that message as well,
you are planning the message as well. How do you
see how much we are hiding? This is not just
correcting your grammar. When you're sending to an important person,

(01:16:08):
you are modifying that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
Absolutely, it's not row.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12):
You're presenting something it is not genuine.

Speaker 1 (01:16:15):
No, it's not. Yeah what you said in the beginning,
it's not genuine.

Speaker 3 (01:16:19):
So the aim is you what so the question should
be but I need to ensure that it works for them? Yes,
why couldn't it work genuinely?

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
Then?

Speaker 3 (01:16:28):
What is stopping you from being genuinely and still being
liked or whatever whatever it is that you're seeking to get. Yeah,
that is going to be real change. All these surface
level makeup that we are doing not helping.

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
Yeah, such an if you have time, like you know,
we mentioned suicidal ideation in the beginning, do you have
time to explain how that works?

Speaker 3 (01:16:51):
So suicidal thoughts when we are talking about it, right,
we have to understand the in terms of how it happens.

Speaker 2 (01:16:59):
In a person. Normally, you can look at it in
three stages.

Speaker 3 (01:17:02):
These again, these stages are not like exact water cookie
cutter cut as any normally, when a person and it
is a combination of all the trauma, past issues, everything
that they have been holding in plus a sense of
suffocation and agitation to act coming out of hopelessness, helplessness

(01:17:22):
and there is a pressure to act, and the third
part being any negative life experience, any trigger that may
have happened.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
So these three things are needed in that person's life.

Speaker 3 (01:17:33):
And when these three things happen, the person starts experiencing
first stage, which is suicidal ideation, ideation in the sense
the person starts getting intrusive thoughts. So let me give
you an example. Right again, we are not saying this
is exactly how it will happen. But now imagine I
had a relationship for over eight years and we had

(01:17:56):
decided we are going to be living together forever butkinambi wamba,
but we ended up breaking up because my career wasn't
doing too great. I felt my partner felt that I
was not ambitious of Palana palana and she broke up
with me, and a month ago she got married So
how am I feeling right now? Really down in the dumbs,

(01:18:19):
almost feel like I have depression and whatnot. I may
even have any other mental health issue as well, because
I've not been taking care of this.

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
But what is happening now? I am my sister's wedding
coming in three months? So what do I do? I've
told my father who's retired, Darah, you don't worry about
this one. I am the.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
Responsible one now. I will take care of it. I
will get her married off. So I've taken loans, I've
fixed up everything. Food is boog, menu, shabdi, cards, outfits,
gold falana, everything done until you're in debt. But I'm smiling.
Why my sister wedding is going to have But suddenly

(01:19:03):
what has happened? My father felled up? My father fell down.
We took him to the hospital. We found out that
he had a massive fund and the doctor told me, suching,
this was a serious one. You have to get him
operated on. And your plastic blasting nature like yes see
the open heart bypasslave messed up.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
Now what do I do? Or the luck metcac around day?
Second opinion, Town, Third opinion, Latown.

Speaker 3 (01:19:37):
But all of this when do I manage I have
a work that keeps me at work for almost twelve hours,
two hours of traveling each way.

Speaker 2 (01:19:48):
Then how am I supposed to do this?

Speaker 3 (01:19:50):
So any three time I get Now I'm running behind
doctors and trying to get even more money. I'm calling
up all of my relatives, my friends, even my boss
have already taken money from them, so now they're also
hanging up my call.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
They're not answering my call.

Speaker 3 (01:20:04):
One of my relatives said, why are you bothering with
an eighty plus a year old man Bypassbega, He tells.

Speaker 2 (01:20:11):
Me, Now, tell me how do I feel. I'm feeling
so helpless that every time I'm traveling to work it's
blood coming on that train now because it kept me faster.

Speaker 3 (01:20:24):
So this right now, I'm struggling to get money anyways anyhow,
And I'm going to my workplace and I'm asking them
my bonus was supposed to come. Where is my bonus ilaka?
Because of my performance? You said I will be getting
it now today. Finally they came back and told me, sorry,
your bonus has been moved to next year. The company

(01:20:44):
has not hit its problems. Everything that I was hoping
for now that's also come crashing. Now when I'm going
back in that same train, I've not been sleeping for
the past one week, just work, train, home, doctor or
the marriage. These are the only thing things I'm running

(01:21:06):
behind now when I'm going back, blood caving on the trail,
I'm giving myself bad words.

Speaker 2 (01:21:14):
I'm having to think that should I my only option
one of the things that.

Speaker 3 (01:21:19):
I may have to break my sister's engagement, then otherwise
how do I manage my father's operation? If I let
him die, then what type of a son am I?
If I don't let him die, break the sister's engagement,
then what kind of her brother?

Speaker 2 (01:21:34):
Am I? What if she does anything after that? I'm
such a useless guy, he said, A Yeah, he's a
cool jump.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
They just let go, let go and just jump there.

Speaker 3 (01:21:57):
Some of us may have even experienced it, even you
for the that time has happened, sand This is happening.

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
This thought that came right now is an intrusive thought.
Intrusive thought, KMITA, A thought that is intrusive, intruding, intrusive
from the word intruder, intruder. You so understand intrusive thoughts,

(01:22:29):
k Ya Insan yah a jata or guess what this
person when he had this thought, he also first got scared.
Oh my god, what did I just tell myself? Yeah?
Are you understanding?

Speaker 3 (01:22:48):
This is not something so that earlier what you mentioned right,
nobody wishes upon suicide. But you see, sometimes situations and pressures,
their old issues, mental health issues, other things combined together
to create this potent mixture and it comes out in

(01:23:09):
your mind as an intrusive.

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):
This is like the ideation phase that the person has.
In this phase, the person is also scared of their
own thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:23:18):
Yeah, what did I just think?

Speaker 3 (01:23:20):
Now they may stop wanting to go by train, because
whenever I go by train, I say yea baba. All
these things can also happen. Do you see that nobody
understands just jo but I don't understand him.

Speaker 2 (01:23:37):
This is a stigma based silence that we are.

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
We're trying to escape the thought as well.

Speaker 2 (01:23:42):
Exactly. But now I'm having these thoughts. Can I talk
to anyone about it? No?

Speaker 3 (01:23:48):
Because and if I say and I'm having such thoughts,
they will be like as its standing at.

Speaker 2 (01:23:58):
What is this? You're again giving me logic? Right, I'm
in pain right now.

Speaker 3 (01:24:06):
Which is causing this intrusion thought, I'm you're trying to
give me logic your parents or do you want someone
to just listen? Kai, now you'm how do we listen?

(01:24:37):
Of course, just pump him up, No, listen to him.

Speaker 2 (01:24:47):
He's not saying that.

Speaker 3 (01:24:48):
He may be whatever and plus two right now he's
feeling in the dumbs. So first acknowledge that. Right so
ideation faced some jo the other room, Helpennamela. They are
not able to get help. They are not able to
help the situation. They are not able to deal with

(01:25:09):
the mental challenges that they're facing, emotional challenges they are facing.
It can slip to the next stage where the intensity
and the frequency of these thoughts increase. That stage two
when these thoughts start happening even without the trait, anytime
the person is being quiet or any such time. Even then,
these thoughts can start and they may cause a lot

(01:25:32):
more pain to the person, and the person may now
start going into planning state. This is the active suicidal state,
where the person will start thinking on how to kill themselves.
They may start thinking of when to kill themselves. They
may start thinking of collecting means on how to kill them.

(01:25:52):
You will be surprised. People may even google what is
the best way to die? What is a painless way
to die? See pain come the high. Yeah, and even
the person with sucidilidation is not able to have this
level of insight or clarity amongst on themselves as well. Right,
they're in that hopeless state, painful state. So you're planning

(01:26:16):
stage and eventually helping a milleto. They may take a step,
but understand that this is majority of us will experience
these thoughts. The point is yes, human, Yes, it is
human condition. Ws a felo be a human, ask for it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
And if you struggle to see what kind of help
you need? I don't want solutions such.

Speaker 3 (01:26:41):
And then tell the person who you're talking to, tell
you know, reach out to someone you trust, let them
know how you want them to listen to you. You
can let them know, hey, you know, I'm going to
share something. It may seem very stupid and whatnot. You
don't have to give any solution. I've already thought of it,
but I really need to say these things out I feel.
Can you just hold the space for.

Speaker 2 (01:27:01):
Me, help them be a better listener as well, so
you don't just have to be I say, yeah, no,
help him, show them what type of a listener you want.
They may be able to do a much better job. Right,
But those were the stages of suicide.

Speaker 1 (01:27:20):
Yeah, thank you for explaining.

Speaker 3 (01:27:21):
You any other thoughts come to your mind? I think
you have gone quite reflective now.

Speaker 1 (01:27:28):
I know. I'm just listening. It's it's good to know
because one of us, I think, you know, we rush
to help you. No, no, no, don't think that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:38):
True. So any message such a from anybody listening.

Speaker 3 (01:27:41):
And finally, m I think the simplest message I can
tell people is, guys, when you're thinking about helping someone,
know that listening by itself is help. What we tend
to think is that I have to first listen to
the person and then help. So we listen to fix
the problem. Yeah, But instead, if we understand that actually

(01:28:04):
the act of you being there and listening.

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):
To them itself is what is helping. So please never
think that you do not have the capacity or the.

Speaker 3 (01:28:15):
Skills, or power or the money or anything to fix
someone or help someone. You buy just you being a
human itself already doing a fantastic job.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
So just be that and I hope it is able
to help someone.

Speaker 1 (01:28:31):
Yeah, just One last thing is you know, when we
were talking on the phone, you said it sometimes when
you're listening, it goes very quiet. So how does one listen?
Do you have to buite back everything you want to say? Oh,
you know, say like if.

Speaker 3 (01:28:43):
You're listening, your ears have to work more. Now your
eyes have to work more. Will it come naturally?

Speaker 2 (01:28:48):
Yeah? Why is going all blah blah? Bye? Right? You
don't have to the point being.

Speaker 1 (01:28:54):
You hold someone's hand, you reach out to you.

Speaker 2 (01:28:57):
You know, what do you do? And when you listen again?

Speaker 3 (01:29:00):
You be you If you are going to If you
don't like touching people, then when you're trying to listen,
you try to look like a good listener.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
You will touch You will be so awkward the person
can sense it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:11):
Yeah, there are no rules of prototypes.

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):
Really, you be you exactly right? You be you?

Speaker 3 (01:29:20):
If the person if you are seeing that, okay, a
lot of solutions are coming up for anything, has the
person asked for it? Okay, keep things simple. If the
person is asking sure her friends, the person is asking
you for advice, go for it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:36):
But the.

Speaker 3 (01:29:39):
Person has come to you. Your bb bot problem b
s A. And what ridiculous that you're saying it too.
Apparently it should make sense to them or something like no,
shut up, just good fighter as yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:59):
Instead of telling them how their wife is.

Speaker 3 (01:30:01):
What conson that everybody's wife is like that? Apparently you
have met everyone's wife I guess could. So these are
things unsolicited advice Mato.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
This is a privilege that means that means that they
trust you with their most vulnerable parts. This is a
place of privilege. Use advice is my humble take.

Speaker 1 (01:30:35):
Yeah. Lovely note to end on, thank you such and
so much for doing this.

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Ep 35: Sachin Chitambaran on suicide prevention: Just listen, don’t try to fix the problem

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