Ep 43: K. Hari Kumar: ‘Writing horror takes a piece of you’

When K. Hari Kumar was young, an oracle or soothsayer in Kerala prophesied that his work would revolve around the “undead”. Now, known fittingly as “Horror Kumar”, he talks about his latest novel Dakini, published by HarperCollins India, born out of personal tragedy and drawing on news reports of witch-hunting. 

He touches upon his affinity for an all-pervading mother goddess, creating strong women characters as opposed to the “damsel-in-distress” Western trope. Through his story, he also explores deeper questions around the existence of a God and the concept of “Shoonyata” or a “profound, eternal void”. He also mentions his passion for keeping traditional folklore alive, sprinkling mythological references throughout his book, and his love for “rain” to keep a narrative going.

And the Dakini, he says, will be back, as part of his "horror universe" or even as a film. Listen in!

Book recommendations: 
* Rosemary’s Baby by Ira Levine
* The Shining by Stephen King
* Markandeya Purana
* Devi Bhagavatam by Ramesh Menon

About the book “Dakini”:
While investigating a spate of unexplained deaths in a remote village, Mumbai-based journalist Mamta learns of the dakini: a bloodthirsty entity that haunts the surrounding forests, leaving mutilated corpses in her wake. As the villagers’ terror grows, so does their dangerous suspicion of women. With lives on the line, including her own, Mamta is dragged into a race against time-all whilst trying to escape her traumatic past, which threatens to turn her own mind against her. 

About the author:
Gurgaon-based K. Hari Kumar is an author of eight books, including the bestseller Daiva: Discovering the Extraordinary World of Spirit Worship and the popular horror anthology India’s Most Haunted. His narratives are rooted in Indian folklore and mythology. He is also an international award nominated photographer and screenwriter.

Timestamps
02:20 The conception of Dakini; coming across news of witch-hunting
07:05 On the feminist energy of the book, his affinity for goddess Durga
14:30 Growing up on stories of yakshas, dakinis, brahma rakshasas, etc
20:35 Mythological symbolism in the book; Dakini as a yogini in Tibetan mythology
22:48 On his non-fiction Daiva; oral tradition of storytelling
27:00 “Surprising” rituals encountered during research for Daiva
39:44 His personal view of the rational vs supernatural
46:15 Interpretation of God
49:50 Using horror tropes; why he loves rain
55:10 How he started writing horror; the oracle’s prophecy
1:00:26 Book recommendations
1:06:44 The future of Dakini – mytho-fiction and film spinoff

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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed are personal. Listener discretion is advised.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, Welcome to Swishing Mindsets Amanaradha, and today we're speaking
to k Hari Kumar, also known as Horror Kumar, who
has recently come out with his new book Darkning. He
is an author of eight books, including the best seller
Deva Discovering the Extraordinary World of Spirit Worship and the
popular horror anthology India's Most Haunted. His narratives are rooted

(00:25):
in Indian folklore and mythology. So Hi, Harry or Horror, just.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Call me hurry. I'm kind of going out of the
horror persona.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
So just call me okay. Thank you for having me
on a Swishing mindset.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Thank you for coming on it. And why did you
say that you're going out of the horror genre because
the book is very much that right, or.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
Yes, the book is.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
But I think I've been writing horror for the last
ten years maybe. So every time you right horror, you
know there's a very repetitive face in phrase in alkiny, tragedy.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
When it strikes, it takes a piece of you.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Similarly, when you sit down to write horror, it takes
a piece of you. It takes a very heavy toll
on your mind. So that's why I am concentrating on
non fiction and mytho fiction slowly moving. It's not really
far away from horror, but moving towards folklore and mythology.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
Now wonderful, both subjects which I really really enjoy.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, the subjects that have fascinated me. In fact, these
are the very subjects which have actually led me to horror.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that because there's a lot
of folklore right in this as well. Like you've talked
about the forest, the god is there, and you know,
a lot of it is to do with villages, even dialect,
things like that. So I think let's start. Let's start
with the book first, luckin it. Tell me what prompted
you to write it, and you know you want to
give any spoilers. I've just finished the book, like I

(02:10):
told you, so, you.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Know, thank you for reading the book, so.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Of course my pleasure. So tell me what led to
you writing this book? How did the plot come to you?

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yes, so I have to take you back in time,
like twenty nineteen gas Pass, okay, And this was the
time when I got the opportunity to write India's Most Haunted,
which is a collection of short stories based on real
haunted places in India. There are stories. Okay, that's a disclaimer.
There are stories, their work works of fiction. But so

(02:48):
when and that that's again with HarperCollins. And when Harper
asked me to work on this, I had prepared this
list of haunted places in India under Haunted Places and uh.
One of the places was in Purdisha and it involved
a concept called Dahini. Again I'm not sure if I'm

(03:09):
you know, pronouncing it correctly. It's d A h I
N nine and I'm assuming it's pronounced as the heini.
And it's about a woman who was hanged for being
at the heini or a witch. And there's a law
which was which is in place, an act which prevents

(03:31):
witch hunting in the state. But despite of that, these
actrocities happen. So this idea, this came from when I
was researching for India's mostart I found it on a
newspaper report. Then I was I started digging into it.
There were it's not just Ourisha. There are also similar
incidents that have happened in Assam, Bengal, Jarkhund and then

(03:54):
most recently got to know that it's even happening in Drajasthan.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
But this new use and then.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
The story of an activist who Padma Strie awarded activists.
She passed away last year this year and her story
who was she was also labeled as a as a
Diane or a witch, but then she fout and then
she has been an activist who has been helping other
women to All these things were there in my mind.

(04:21):
The idea was there in the mind. I wrote a
short story in India's Most Wanted. It's called The Heine
of Mangalo Jori. But I wanted to write further somewhere.
That pain was there, that you know, pain of getting
executed because of.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
What you're not right.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
So but for that to become a full fledged story,
I needed a character to drive it forward, which I
was not kidding. It was there in my head. And
then flashed forward to twenty twenty one two, something very
tragic happened in my personal life. We had to deal

(05:02):
with a loss, a personal loss of a baby. And
suddenly when I saw my wife in that labor room,
that's when I had this character spouting out to me
that you know, and then I had Mantha. The Mantha

(05:23):
became that character, and that the story the concept was
of this witch hunt. When was two are placed together,
darking happens. So that's the inspiration. These two characters. One
is the woman who I mean, one is the concept

(05:46):
of which hunt. And then my own personal life the
pain that I my wife went through, the pain of
losing a baby. So these two, when they combined, that
became the idea for Darkling.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, yeah, thanks you for sharing that. And you know
it's you know, from what you said, it's also a
very feminist tale. When I was reading the book, I
felt that, you know, because of course it talks about
a pregnant woman and in the beginning, you know, I mean,
I can that's not a spoiler. Really, it's just the
beginning of the book. Yeah, you know, and the witch

(06:21):
hunt is happening. But you know, you've written it almost.
I felt like, you know, it makes sense now because
you said you saw your wife and that's when you
started writing.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
It, because I could only see her pain, what she
was going through, only only she could understand.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, but it's like you've written it from that point
of view, from the point of view of a woman.
I felt, right, I've tried, but yeah, yeah, so I
wasn't deliberate to make it like a feminist story because
in that, you know, it's the strength of a woman
and even the darkening. Again, I don't know if I'm
pronouncing it right, but could they kind of uh, I
mean not they you kind of equated to Dava, right,

(06:59):
So yeah, So was the feminist angle, like, you know,
was it deliberate or it just happened?

Speaker 2 (07:07):
Oh, the concept was deliberate, as in the concept of
a woman who has been hunted.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
As a witch, has been labeled as a witch, but.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Who is actually an amalgamation of all the feminine energies. Okay,
that's it. That was intentional the rest of it. I mean, see,
when you're writing, you don't really have a control on
what all you're going to write. You just keep writing, writing, writing, writing,
and then it's only when you edit it then you realize, God,

(07:36):
I've written this or written that.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
So I wouldn't say it was say, I'm not a feminist.
I don't even know what is.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
I don't even read feminist literature, so I can't be
a feminist like that. So whatever is written is written there.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, I mean it's strong women, you know, the standing
up for themselves.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
It's an independent woman.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
She's an independent woman who has gone through a lot
in her life. He was brought up in an orphanage.
These are not spoilers because this is part of the story.
It's in the beginning itself. And she is a very
successful journalist. But she had a big fall, which was
the abortion. Now she's trying to come she's trying to
come out of that. So it's a journey of an individual.

(08:18):
If you look at that, it could happen to a
man as well. I mean, it could be a different
kind of a loss, but this could happen to a
man as well. So it's an individual story. And now
coming back to the aspect of the Davy, See, I
am a very I've been brought up by a very

(08:39):
religious mother, and so I think I've been a very
big devote devotee of Durga. My wife is a big
devote of Durga. So I think I have this natural
inclination towards the goddess. So maybe that's why the spiritual

(09:00):
angle comes into play.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
But when you look at Dakini, if you want to
what is a Dakini. Dakini is is a witch.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
In popular culture, She's considered as a very negative entity.
So even in Malayalam, so I come from that part
of the world, from Kerala. In Malayalam, we had this
children's book, children's comic strip, and in that comic strip
you had a negative character was a witch and she

(09:32):
was known as Dakimi. We've all grown up breeding that
Dakini is a witch, an old hag with long ears
and saggy breasts and everything. But the thing is, the
word Diane comes from Dakini. Dakhini comes from Dakini, dakin.
All these negative words come from Dharkni. And even in
the Puranas, Dakhani is mentioned as somebody who appears very fierce.

(09:56):
But at the same time, if you look at La
you have one of the names of the baby as
the darkness Suri. If you look at their scriptures, then
there is a mention that the darkening is an attendant
of their ga. She cannot be negative. She may be fears,

(10:17):
she may be angry, okay, but she cannot be negative.
She's angry because of something, because of an injustice, which
exactly is the motto of darkening in my studio.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, absolutely, because she's angry obviously because of an injustice.
And she's not negative. Because she's actually protecting women and children,
and you know, she's a source of strength for the
village women.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
Like he's protecting the pregnant, pregnant woman, Yeah, pregnant. There
there's the line in the book, you know when she's angry,
she has the strength of one hundred men. So yeah, yeah,
so that's that is the darkening. That is the feminine power.
You know, if a woman is wrong and she's hurt,

(11:03):
she shouldn't feel that there's nothing she can do about it.
He has to do something about it. That's what darkening is.
And Mamta does that. And it depends on the reader
how they want to look at it. They can look
at it at it in a very symbolic or a
feminist point of view.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
They can look at.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
It like an epic horror y and you know, you've
got supernatural powers or something. It all depends on the
person who's reading it the way they want to pursue it.
I've just written a book. It's been a very open
kind of an interpretation.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, absolutely. And even Mamta, I mean, you know she's
strong and she takes on the fight really, but she
also like you know, she goes through a pregnancy.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
The abortion, and that's the human side.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
She's ready to run away from the scene, right till
her sister reminds her that, look, I looked up to you,
and you know you're so brave, and I you're running away.
And then she finds strength inside her again.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
And then she also looks at this other lady, other
girl who's pregnant, who's who has no privilege that Mamta has,
and she can't even run away.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
That's what brings her.

Speaker 4 (12:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
You know that these two girls, one is Tara, the
other one is one is helpless, the other one wants
to do something with her life because of the privilege
she has.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
I'm talking about Tara.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
These two girls somehow influence her to kind of you know,
move forward in the story.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, and I you know, when you've described the book
is so visual. When you've described this, you know this
davy shaky and strength of one hundred men. And you
know how when you see the you know you say
davy roup, like you know, it's amazing the way you've
described it. I could, like, you know, I was just
reading the pages, but I could just visualize the entire thing,
like how powerful. Like you said that you know the

(12:54):
men around they quaked, you know, in fear and reverence
as well.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
So yeah, there is reverence adel that will be a spoiler.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
I won't reveal because you know, I'm not going yeah,
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
I'm just saying because it's it is one of the
one of my favorite scenes in the book, which happens
in the end, obviously, and that ending is inspired from
one of our hymns, it's Imani that Him, which which
is very popular, at least in the South, even in
the North it's popular.

Speaker 4 (13:25):
So the climax is inspired by that him.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, and you refer to it also.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
Because you know a lot of people might miss it,
So sometimes you have to spoon feed.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Oh yeah, you have to spoon feed.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, because even now when I talk to I've talked
to a lot of readers.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
I've talked to English professors who have read it.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
They couldn't, you know, find a lot of those symbolic
mythological messaging which I have left, which is kind of stocking.
So that's why some of these things have been spoon fed.
Other I can share it with you if you want
the symbolisms which I have been used in the.

Speaker 4 (14:04):
Book, please.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
I was going to ask you, yeah, please do.

Speaker 4 (14:06):
Yeah, I should have I have it with me.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Because any remember you can mention.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, definitely, but those those are for people who have
read the book otherwise spoilers.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
No, no, no, no spoilers. Yeah, people can read it
and then yeah, but I still want to know the
influence of mythology and folklore because the book is really
steeped in it. I can see that.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yes, So see the thing is for that You'll have
to understand how uh my childhood was shaped.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
I was brought up in Okay and we I came.
I come from very.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Normal, I mean, very humble, middle class family and back
in the day, we used.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
To visit my dad used to work, and we used
to visit my hometown in Carol only once in a year,
and that would suck up all the savings that they had.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
Okay, So that was the kind of upbringing that I had.
We lived in a very small one room house in
and so every time I visited my native in the summer,
during the summer holidays, I would hear these stories about
ghosts and witches and goblins from my to my grandmother's

(15:25):
both of them and Nani. They would tell me stories
so Nani's stories were mostly from the southern part of Karnaka,
and these stories were mostly from the Caravla side. So
I had a very good about, very fond memories of
the summer summer vacations. Light actually power cut and all

(15:52):
of us kids would just gather and Dad would start
telling us these stories of Yakshi's dakineseish Ra. So these
stories kind of shaped my imagination. And then my mother
used to read me stories from Dama. I don't know

(16:16):
if you've heard of it.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, yeah, I've read it in my childhood. I'm surprised
you mentioned.

Speaker 4 (16:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
It was discontinued in two thousand and seven, unfortunately, but
so I had the good fortune of being able to
so so if I am sure, you might remember.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
It also had.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Stories of and it had this really creepy picture of
Wickrum carrying with it.

Speaker 4 (16:42):
Yeah, I can see it, right.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
So that's the imagination. That's the childhood fascination which kind
of prompted me to follow this route. So even when
I grew up, when I was when I started writing,
the visuals used to be from those days. So that
is why I think I started writing horror, which was

(17:07):
rooted in folklore and my Indian mythology, not Western mythology,
because otherwise, if you look at most of our Indian writers,
they just end up I'm not just writers, even filmmakers,
they just end up a repurposing Western troops.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
Dale is nothing but a vampire.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
But it's not the concept of Jdale is very different
from what is portrayed on your screen and even in
popular books. No, that's not even darkening yakshini. The concept
of a yakshini has been brutally h murdered by popular
culture in Kerala. Yakshini is also an attendant of the

(17:51):
daily But if you.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
Look at Malalam films or Malayalam books, the yakshi is
nothing but a vampire. It's not it's not like that.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, it's more lair.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
It's I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
More layered. I said, it's more layered.

Speaker 4 (18:07):
It's more layered.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
And the concept is very similar to a document. Yeah,
but if you look at the books that have been
written or if you look at the popular films that
have come out exploring the concept, it's just a Western
woman in white vampire who has been repurposed as a
yaxi in Malala.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, very one dimensional. No, Actually I saw threes three too.
I enjoyed it, and of course it gets into folklore
and things. I don't want to criticize it, but you know,
I've seen stranger things, and at the end of it,
it reminded me a bit of stranger things, the upset
down the world, and.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
You know, yeah, I can understand like that.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
See that influence will be there, yeah yeah, But then
repurposing the whole thing is something very lazy. Even if
I see if it would have been easier for me
to just repurpose yeah, Yourona as a Darkini.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Yea.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yourona is a South American concept who is also a
supernatural entity who has killed her child and now she's
looking for a child.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
She keeps weeping, and Yourona means a weeper.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
So it would have been very easy to just repurpose
that concept and just name her Darkni and set her
in India. I don't do that, but that's what many
people are doing, which is why I think we have
to stress on original stories.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
So it's important to you. I'm saying that, you know too,
I mean revive our folklore or you know, it is
very important.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, because see what happens is if when a writer
or a filmmaker kind of you, which is the supernational
entity which is rooted in folklore but then completely changes
the meaning of it. Then the future generations will actually
feel that what this version has been portrayed is the

(20:13):
real version of.

Speaker 4 (20:14):
The folklore, which it may not be. That's what happened
with others.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, so you know, I'm still stuck on what you
said that. You know that a lot of references to
mythology and folklore in the book, So I'm just thinking
maybe I can mention a couple which will not give
away the plot. So it's very rooted in the forest, right,
like a forest data, yes, everything that an a Banian
tree right, right? Yeah, so any references for that?

Speaker 3 (20:46):
I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah, I said that, you know in mythology and folklore.
You know, you've referenced a lot of it in the book.
So a lot of the action takes place in the
dark forest, right, and this also the Banyan tree, right,
the roots of the baniantry that. Yeah, so but they
just you know that these are tropes, right, just tropes

(21:11):
for you? Are they also like, you know, very interesting
to mythology and folklore.

Speaker 4 (21:15):
For you.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
So the Banian tree is very important here because that's
when most of the execution happens. Baluntary is considered considered
to be the award of See, it depends on which
school of thought you're coming from. One school of thought,
we'll actually consider the baluntrey as holy and the.

Speaker 3 (21:36):
Award of the gods. There would be another school which
might consider us the award of.

Speaker 4 (21:40):
The booths or the restless souls.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
So I have used that trope here because the baletary
is used, the people tree is used for this right,
and both of them are kind of from the from
a very similar family as well. And in our culture,
wherever you go, okay, from the north to southeast to west,
a banyan tree or a people cut tree, if it

(22:07):
starts sprouting, you're not allowed to chop it. That is
the kind of reverence we have for the Banyan tree.
It's on such a banyan tree which has a temple
like significance. You're hanging a woman with the power of
a lie. That is a symbolism that we have used.

(22:27):
So that's there. Then, even if you look at the
names of the characters, Mamata, I think it's.

Speaker 4 (22:33):
Very Yeah, yess.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
Maternal love.

Speaker 3 (22:36):
Maternal love.

Speaker 4 (22:37):
Tara Is is a very important.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
A start in mythology. She's a mythological figure.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
She is a mythological figure in Tibet in mythology.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
So that mythology okay, yes, no, no, no no.

Speaker 3 (22:56):
Because the dark and is also pretty popular. It is
a very important entery in Tibet and mythology.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Okay, he's somebody who helps you, uh, you know, on
achieving meditative states. She is like she's a oh there,
although she is uh portrayed as a woman who's covered
in blood with three eyes and drinking from a skull,
a very scary depiction.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
But she is supposed to be the She's supposed to.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
Be a very intelligent, very full of wisdom, and she's
very innocent, and that's the reason why sometimes she is
seen as the spears and because the way she reacts.
I mean, it's a very beautiful concept. I mean, if
you can, if you get it, time to get time,
please do read about it. So some of it has
also been used here. And she is also somebody who
is the ruling over.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
M hmm.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
Okay, now you know why makes an appearance here.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, because I even noted down you know what you've written.
One second, I just find it. Yeah, I just quote
from your book it. Yeah. So when the powerful supernatural
entity starts its influence, the person's soul is pulled into
a dark empty space called shta, the realm of utter emptiness,

(24:13):
a black abyss, where the soul is lost, drifting into
figments of memories, consumed by a profound eternal void. So
I love this.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
So see that's again from a mythological point of view,
is the nothing ness? Okay, But if you look at
it in my my interpretation is very simple. It's it's
the it's an atheist view of afterlife.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
Okay. So even in Buddhist traditions.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
After you, you know you kind of when you die,
your soul kind of either goes into the circulation or
it passes into this nothing less and that's the ultimate
aim in some of the school of thoughts. So an
somebody who rules over this nothing as all this Now

(25:05):
Tara is the mother of liberation in the very same
Buddhist mythology, and she hears the cries of the people
who are trapped in this samsarah or sansara. So that way,
Tara plays a very even in this book also plays
a very important role. She helps him, you know, safeguarding

(25:29):
to who's baby. So I think I think that why
then is there one day again a very symbolic.

Speaker 4 (25:39):
Name.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, because is somebody who is considered as a representative
of Hindu culture. And yeah, so that's there.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
He proclaims also forgotten exactly what he says in the
book that you know, he says, my name is this,
and I'm here too, you know, Yes.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
He does that, and I think that's why. That's why
it said if I reveal it, then it's a spoiler. Yeah,
But that whole last scene after everything happens, I think
that's very very symbolic, especially from the part of the
world where I come from, because that part is called Parasona,
that is the region produced by Parsona because it was

(26:21):
believed that after you know, you know, you know, after
his whole anger thing, he had to perform a penance
and for that he needed a land. And what he
did was he throws his axe into the Arabian Sea
and from there comes a land. And that land is

(26:45):
a stretch from Gokarna to Kari. So that's really that
region is known as Persona.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
That's freedo. I'm so glad we managed to get some
references there are.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
In fact, according to folk tales, Parson is the reason
why Durga is still worshiped in that region, because he's
the one who has brought that. Uh, it was retained
that form of worship Durga, that is the sacred feminine
and then you've got Naga worship, which is the serpents.

(27:20):
Otherwise these two might have been lost.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Well, even that makes an appearance in your book, I
won't say, but yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
That's why I said that. Very symbolic.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yeah, because personam brings the version and the shavik aspect.
But according to folklow Parsadam is the one who established
all the Dura temples on the southwestern coast of coast
of India.

Speaker 3 (27:45):
According to folklore, these are not historical records.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
These are of course, That's what makes it so interesting,
the serpent reference, and people.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
Can plenty of them.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yeah, there's another one. You know the rules you've meant, right,
and I'll read it out from here. It says Auras
were traditionally iron smelters. It is believed that they are
descendants of a mythical rooster deity called cou could they.
According to another local legend, auras were born from the
trident of Bandaginy. So you've got the trident also like

(28:20):
she as sure, sure, and you've got this, which I
found very interesting because the rooster is there pretty much
throughout this village.

Speaker 4 (28:29):
Yes, so the idea was you've got see this came
from so I worked on Diva, and while working on Diva.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Was able to get a deeper understanding of how automistic
spirits tautomistic deities work.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
I got to learn a lot about totemism and I
kind of implemented that in Dakini. So originally dam was
supposed to come out before Diva. This was supposed to
come outast year in October, but there were some delays
and because of that delay, I was able to explore
and expand this whole concept of the totemistic gods, the

(29:13):
Kukuts and the the rooster and the.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
Hell ideas very simple.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
You've got a male deity, you've got a female deity,
and the male deity sacrifices wife at the time of
a great family.

Speaker 4 (29:25):
Yeah understand.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
So now what they do is at the altar of
the rooster deity, the woman, a girl who just started menstruating,
she comes and sacrifices the hell.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
So the idea is very easy to understand if you
look at it.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
It's it's a I think that's a reference to patriarchy.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
Setting the rules for women for girls.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Okay, so this was drawn from a any particular folklore
or this is something.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
That a lot of folkloes.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
I mean, it would be very difficult to tell you
from where I.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
Got there, but this is something that you created as an.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yes, whatever you see there, the cocotes, the darky, so
dagi again, it can be interpreted as dark nika short
form dagi can also be interpreted as somebody with a dog,
and the dark could be the menstrual blood. It could
be a dog and the character, because those are the
things which I'm talking about.

Speaker 4 (30:29):
Later in the book.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
But obviously these terms this, even the tribe, the tribe,
they're all fictitious, but they are inspired.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
From real, real tribes and their forms of worship. Even
the Muloney leaf, if you know, muloney is a very fictitious.
It's a fictitious tree. But the thing is it draws
inspiration from sap producing decidus trees.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
Which exists.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, okay, and even in Kerala we have this palao
is Ah it's it's called devil Stream in English, and
it has these flowers which produce some amazing, amazing smell,
but it's so.

Speaker 3 (31:15):
Poisonous that if one touch you may actually end up dying.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
And yeah, so the idea was adapted, you know, from
there to fit into this kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
So that's there.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
No, You've created a very rich world. You know, it's
very real, Like I'm asking you all this because it
feels like, you know, it really exists, you know, because
the forests, the smells, the flowers. Then you know, there's
mental blood you've mentioned, you know, bra, you know, there's
all these there. But at the same time, I want
to mention, you know, whoever's listening in that it's not
a dark book in that sense, because when I started

(31:54):
reading it, I usually, you know, I'm a void horror
because you.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
Know it just yeah, I know, I know. Yeah, And
that's the reason why horror doesn't sell so much.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, I'm sorry about that. But you know, this was
actually a pleasant read, you know. You it shifts, you know,
after that first prologue, it just shifts into very urban
landscape and you know, people going about their business, living
in their apartments. And then it keeps, you know, alternating,
so you're seeing it almost like you know, it's happening
from your perspective. So I like that balance that you

(32:24):
know the book has, and maybe you also get that
outsiders perspective because you're entering that forest and you're seeing it,
you know, through the protagonist's eye because she's a modern woman, right. So,
and like I said, you know, there's a rooster. It's
very rich, you know that you can almost feel the
here the forests, smell the forest, you know, things like that.
It's it's very well done.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
That's why I had the pleasure of doing a lot
of recess for there.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
That's when I said the whole delay was the book.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Which was supposed to come out last year, gets read
by a whole year, you know.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
And that time I was so angry. To be very honest,
I was very angry.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
And then a very similar book came out the same
time and I was like, oh God, now what.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
But I think it was.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
For a reason, because whatever I learned ford Ivaha life
was a nonfiction and I was traveling and I was
spending time in remote villages in the coastal regions of
and Kerala. I was witnessing rituals, and then I was
reading about it. And I was also reading the stuff

(33:33):
which was written one thirty years back by some British explorers.

Speaker 4 (33:37):
So overall it gave me.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
This aspect which wasn't there in Darkening and whatever you
see now, it's not just my imagination. It's also what
I have experienced during my research. I think that's why
it kind of kind of comes out as so realistic,
because if you go back and try to search for things,
you will get certain things which are very similar.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
In fact, I mean it's interesting because I was going
to ask you have you done research? So unfortunately I'm
sorry to have not read THEVA but I will after
a call, you know, but could you could you talk
a little bit about the research that you date and
the rituals that you witnessed. Uh, I'll just tell us
about the book. Tell me about the book.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
Yeah, about what about Diva?

Speaker 1 (34:24):
About the Yeah, where it took you, you know? The
okay through that?

Speaker 2 (34:29):
No, Diva, it's about the spirit worship of the Tulu
speaking region of Karnataka and northern Caerala.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
It's a very.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
Small strip of land, and the people there they worship
these entities called divas. They're also known as some of
them are also known as Buddhas. And but this day
is the more respectable term that is used by people
is diva, so means the spirit of this spirit day.
It is a very similar form of worship exists in

(35:03):
Northern Carolina as well, and there it is called tayam
Tam and Daiwa are the same. Daiva becomes taya, Taya
becomes them. That's how the language works, right when you
move from one region to another. So you might have
actually seen daiva worship in Kantara, And if you've watched

(35:23):
that film and them again, you might have seen these
pictures of very scary deities with red paints and big
headgears and you know, walking on the fire and everything.
So those are the kind of ritualistic dances which I
witnessed all my research, and I think some of them

(35:46):
left a very.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
Lasting impact on my head. And and also.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
The stories of some of these deities are very very
heartbreaking and provoking, and somehow maybe those things also kind
of So I was traveling from one region to another
trying to understand what is the story of this because
these day was your folk daties, spirit deities, So I
was trying to understand what are the story, what is

(36:14):
the origin story of this folk deity because it's not
written down. These are all part of the oral literature,
oral traditions. So I think Diva documents that and not
from a scholar's perspective, because I'm not a scholar. Again,
like I mentioned that, I'm not somebody who is a

(36:35):
feminist or a scholar.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
These are not my thing. I'm just a storyteller.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
But I've written Diva in the form of a memoir
where I'm trying to explore my roots because these are
the very deities that my ancestors have also worshiped at
some point in time.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
So that's the narrative there. That's the book.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
Okay, yeah, very interesting. I'm going to read it for sure.
But any rituals, anything that you can talk about which
you know which surprised you.

Speaker 2 (37:10):
Let's say, see, I already knew about it, so I
was not very surprised. Like maybe for somebody who's an outsider.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, maybe he would be surprised, Like, you know.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
We don't know that they would be definitely surprised, like
they might even be shot. Because in some so this
these ritualistic dancers involve possession.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
So there is a dancer who is dressed.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Up like a deity with face paint and head gears
and everything colorful dresses, and this person invokes the spirit
of this deity into his body and then that person
becomes the deity. And the people who are out there

(37:59):
witnessing this rich well, they go to this deity asking
for solutions to their problems, asking for forecasts and all
those things. In the olden days, disputes were also settled
in the court of the these deities, so nowadays it's
obviously about courtes so nobody said settles disputes this way.

Speaker 4 (38:23):
But still there are.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Some visuals which can be very scary, like in Kerala
there is agni pervation, so that the am deity walks on.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Fire and it's a very scary thing to witness.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
And the thing is when they come out of it,
they're unharmed, their bodies unharmed, so which is very uh.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
Striking.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
And they are also seen where you know, you've got
utensils or things which they hit on their head and
they bend it completely and so those are very scary
anything if they have this masalco, those are visuals that

(39:10):
might scare you know, somebody who's an outsider, But for
the people there, it's what is done, that's that's what
separates this normal answer from this deity.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yeah, so you know, tell me, Harry, you know you're
talking about possessions. You talking about all this even in
your book. You know you've not tried to what is
the world like, you know, explain it away, right, So
te me what is your personal view is it? Do
you believe in this the super paranormal.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
It's a very tricky question because I always try to
stay away from answering this because what I believe should
not be something which leads somebody else to believe.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Yeah, of course you don't have to answer. You can
answer the way you want.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
The way I want is very simple. The positions that
you see in the films, they don't really happen. Those
are the stories that somebody like somebody has written. I'm
not saying somebody like me, but it's some writers or
some director's version. And the most of the times, if
there is possession, then it's dissociation with the from the

(40:22):
actual self. Which I think as a you know, you
might have a better understanding of that. It is reality
that is dissociative identity disorder, where the person dissociates from
himself and splits into another personality. So most of the
time it's that, and that's the reason why the person

(40:44):
doesn't even recollect being somebody else. And that's what happens
best references Manzola from right.

Speaker 4 (40:53):
We had an.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Preposterous third part that released, but I'm talking about the
first part, which was the best movie that was made
on that subject. So that's something that's that's an involuntary
nature of kind of possession where you are not in control, right,

(41:20):
where a supernatural entity enters your body and you become possessed. Now,
whether you are actually possessed or whether it's a deity,
that's a completely different argument.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
But the thing is it's of involuntary nature.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
Now, the other thing which I mentioned earlier with that
ritualistic dance, it's totally different from it because there the
possession is voluntary. The dancer invokes the deity and lets
it enter his body. Okay, so the nature of possession
is very different here, it's a voluntary kind of possession.

(41:55):
And the scholar scholarly view is that they kind of
go into this auto hypnosis, a self hypnosis, you know,
by being open to suggestion, by auto suggestion, that is,
you know, because at the time of invocation they sing
these pok poets about the glories or the journey of

(42:20):
this dating and while singing this, they transform into the daity.
So it's a kind of auto hypnosis. And you've got
the environment around you where there is a lot of
drum beats going on which you see in the darkuining
the trum beat to the hons and everything, because that's
exactly what you see in these dance situals as well.
So I think that's the difference the two types of

(42:43):
positions there is involuntary and voluntary, and both of them
have a rational explanation as well. Now it's up to
you whether you want to choose the rational or the
supernatural or the spiritual this thing.

Speaker 4 (42:55):
I leave it to your choice or imagination.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Okay, So Harry again, you don't have to answer this,
but have you ever experienced anything paranormal or supernatural?

Speaker 2 (43:10):
I have experienced a few things, but I don't know
if they're paranormal, supernatural, supernatural or.

Speaker 4 (43:17):
I mean, like.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
One of the things which I told you already, Dakni
was supposed to come out last year, right, But now
I feel had it come out last year, it would
have been a very half pick kind of a story.
I mean, it appeared very complete and everything at that time.
But I think the all delay and writing Dia in

(43:42):
between was a God given gift. So here, I don't
know if you want to label it paranormal or supernatural
or divine intervention, but these kinds of things have happened
in my life and I like to believe that there
is a higher power.

Speaker 3 (43:59):
My personal view is that it's a mother goddess who
looks after me.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
So that's what I believe in, and I think that's
more powerful than all the supernatural entities around, if that
makes sense.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
It does, if that makes sense of.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Course, because you know, even I feel like a lot
of time we call them patterns in our life, or
we label it serendipity.

Speaker 3 (44:26):
Is the right world?

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah, yeah, there is something like, uh, you know, I
think it's a very Junian way of looking at things,
that everything is happening, you know, for a reason. So
what I try to interpret is that this is a
very personal interpretation. It's not proven or I can't prove it, okay,

(44:50):
but I believe that there are spirits or there are
entities all around us which we cannot see, which we
cannot perceive, but they are influencing our decisions, they are
influencing our lives. And yeah, I think there's a very

(45:11):
very interesting concept in brad Samita which says that all
the omends omens you understand omends, right, Yeah, that these
are actually carried out by these spiritual entities that are
present around us. And these entities could be both, they
could be pards, they could be anything, things that we

(45:34):
cannot perceive with our limited sense of perception. So yeah,
there could be energies because these days you just add
energy and you can sell it across the oceans and
make millions.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah. Energy is a buzzword these days.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
Yeah, the gurus are doing it already.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Yeah your book, you know you've just said that you know,
the a shadow past, it's.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
Like that, right, yeah, exactly, a shadow past you because
sometimes things just nudge you in the right direction, and
that nuns you don't know where from where it came from.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
Yeah, true? Yeah, so is that God for you? And
in the book, because you know, in the book, like
I was saying, before you know, we started recording, I
was saying that, you know, you mentioned God in a
few places. Even the protagonist asks herself about God. Then
you know, the word atheist is usually oh you atheists?

Speaker 4 (46:31):
You know.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
So it's a recurring theme, you know, so like what
is God for you? And also through the book, so.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
I've already mentioned what is God for me?

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Yeah, the last question, it's I think it's a all
perverting mother goddess who looks after everything. And again, just
because I am using the term mother doesn't mean it
has to be a female.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Now it's kind of tricky, but.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Ergy we can say, yeah, energy see again, for them
you need to go into says it's an energy, that
God is not a person, it's a is the concept
of god?

Speaker 4 (47:13):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
And if it's then it's.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
A formless God. But if it's it's a God with
a phone. So that debate will go on. I don't
want to get into that. Maybe when I am learned
enough to talk about it, I'll talk about it. But
right now I believe that this is a sacred, feminine
or whatever you want to call it. But if you

(47:40):
look at that chapter where because there is a chapter,
and in fact, the excerpt has just come out on
one of the websites, and it talks about Mamata questioning
her god, the God which she grew up with, which
is a Catholic God, which is an all power, waiting,

(48:01):
singular god. Right, and then she also she has a
lot of questions, then why did didn't that God save
me when this happened in my life and that happened
in my life and all. And then she also looks
at Cuckoo, the girl who believes in this tribal god.
So those are the questions which I've also explored, because

(48:23):
for every person the interpretation of God is different. I
am also praying to some deity. Somebody else is praying
to some other deity. Somebody says there is no God.
What isn't actually carrying out? Who's listening to her prayers?

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Then, yeah, that's true. We're all exploring. Even in the
beginning in the epilogue, you know, before the witch hunt
is happening and you know she's hanged there, she's calling
out to God, please.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
Do yes.

Speaker 4 (48:53):
Happens.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
Yes, she calls out to the which is female goddess
from the tribe. Yeah yeah, yes, and but she's hanged,
so that means that prayer was not heard.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Yeah, and again was out to you, you know because
you're like, oh God, like you know, nothing is like
now she's praying, you know, maybe something will happen.

Speaker 3 (49:13):
Maybe something. Because in a very similar way, there is
another chapter.

Speaker 4 (49:18):
This is where.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
Who is beaten by her husband at night?

Speaker 2 (49:23):
Yeah, and while she is getting beaten, she looks out
of the window and prays to the forest goddess and then.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
That's when this completing stad off. Woman passes outside and
then he has to look go go out looking for who?

Speaker 1 (49:41):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're revealing too much now you're
revealing Yeah, but yeah. Interesting. So you know your book
also has I mean, for lack of a better word,
trope so hook, so whatever you call it. You know
like at key moments, you know there's thunder and there's
lightning and you know there's darkness. All that happens, you know.

(50:02):
So do you have fun with it?

Speaker 4 (50:05):
How? I love it? Yeah? I love it.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
So I'll tell you very very funny and a funny
incident from So I wrote this web series for Brown Okay,
and while we were shooting for Brown.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
My producer was like, we were shooting in similar Okay,
and most of the time when we were shooting it
was raining. And then there was a stretch of a
few days when there was no rain and we had
to bring in the water supply for the rain, and
it was just adding onto the budget.

Speaker 3 (50:38):
And the producer was, why did you have to add
rains so much rain in your screenplay.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
I don't know why, but I'm I have this. See,
everybody has a favorite thing for me. When I'm happy,
when I'm sad, when I'm surprised, when I'm feeling, when
i want to feel cozy, or when i want to
feel pain, I just relate with rain. I think rain

(51:07):
is an encapsulation of all the human emotions that have
ever existed. Pro farmer who has been waiting for a
drop of water in his paddy feel that rain is
a blessing. Right at the same time for somebody who
just wants to go to work but cannot because the

(51:29):
Bangalo traffic is completely, you know, messed because of.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
A rain, that rain is a curse.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
So yeah, I think rain encapsulates all the human emotion.
It's a spectrum of emotions, and that's why I have this.
You will find rain in all my works. You read
India is what I was wanted. You read Datma, you
read Darkini.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
Rain is everywhere.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah, this question, no, I'm just agreeing with you a
lot of.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Rein It's not just because I want to overuse something.
It's just because I like it.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
So that means, see, the thing is a person who
may not like reading or for any other this thing,
every general scene happens on a Sunday day, So how
does that make it any different. It just it's so overused.
Sunny days are overused. When you don't write something, then
you assume it is a Sunday day.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:27):
Actually, so for me, I make sure that I mentioned.

Speaker 3 (52:32):
It's any day so that my reader is in that
mood where I am while I'm writing it. That's all.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
And even for this thing when you mentioned since you
mentioned thunder, one of the characters is named after a
thunder god. So if you reread it again, you'll find
that the thunder mostly happens mostly happens around you know,

(52:59):
either before, for or after all during his chapters. Okay,
so there are some little little nuances here and there
which many people have missed. But yeah, those are and
his name contains two opposing aspects. One is your Indra,
which is your deva, and then you've got an assoul
in his middle.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Name in the bishops is your buffalo. Yeah, so those
are the symbolisms.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
So that's one person who can be both a god
as well as a demon. Those are some little little
symbolisms here and there.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Yeah, I know, I can see you've had a lot
of fun with it. And I think anybody who's reading
a horror book or you know, even watching you need
these things. You know, creaking doors and you know you're
always wondering, oh, what's going to happen. And Tara has claustrophobia,
so you know all those things. And the lights are
very electricity is very unreliable in the village, so you know,
and you need all those things. Even the Banyan tree

(53:59):
which you mentioned, you know that. I remember when I
was a child and we had to walk under a
Banian tree. We were told to chant something because there
were spirits there, you know, that's.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
What there were spirits.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
Yeah, especially late at night. So I remember walking under,
walking past and you know, like chanting something, you know.

Speaker 4 (54:16):
Yeah, that's what I said.

Speaker 3 (54:18):
In most parts of the country.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
It's believed that that spirits reside in your Banian trees
even if you look at Actually.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yeah, yeah, so horror is fun, you know. We love
being scared and the thrills and the chills, you know.

Speaker 4 (54:37):
So, and if you can give a good social message
through your horror, then you can actually bring a change
in the society, is what I feel. Yeah, and I've
been doing it for a very long time.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
They've been trying to discipline as naughty little kids by
introducing these concepts of horror, but they were trying to
give us some kind of a message.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
So tell me what when did you get into the
horror space, like from the beginning or how was it?
What got you interested and so invested in it?

Speaker 3 (55:10):
Oh, my first book wasn't a horror book.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
It was a very simple slice of life kind of
a story inspired from my own life, my own struggles
with my engineering and the parental pressure and everything.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
So that was the first book.

Speaker 4 (55:29):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
For this, we'll have to go back to another very
interesting supernatural episode in my life. This was way back
in two then sixteen or something, when when I was
kind of planning to switch from a corporate life to
career in the creative arts. So that time my mother

(55:53):
was very worried. I totally see the very religious person.
She started visiting all these astrologers and I don't know
how many temples in was just to understand, y.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
Cubrust you is as I fear, and that's how diva begins.
So I think I leave it for Diva since you
are going to read it.

Speaker 4 (56:15):
But just.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
So, during one of the visits to a temple there
there was this oracle at the temple and now part
of the country, you've got oracles who get possessed by
the mother goddess, okay, and they start vibrating and then
doing all these things they've got and everything, and they

(56:38):
give prophecies okay.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
And one such thing happened to me.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
And this person, this possessed oracle, he grabs my hand
and says, son, whatever you do, it has to it
has got something to do with the undead, whatever professional
you choose in life, which was very kind of surprising
and at that time I thought, because very soon after that,

(57:09):
I got the offer to write a horror film and
it was not my story. It was somebody else's story,
and it happened to be horror okay, and very soon
after that, I got the opportunity to write India's Most
Wanted Again, it was not my concept, it was something
which was offered to me by Hypercollins. So I started

(57:30):
believing maybe undated with the booth pray there, so I
had to do something with horror.

Speaker 4 (57:34):
That's going to be my profession. And coincidentally, I think.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
By the time these books came out and that film happened,
then Brum happened, which also is a horror Then I
was like typecast as a horror writer. And then people
knew me as a horror writer because some of the
books were best sellers and I had this loyal fan
base as well, So then I think by the time
it became a proper, proper or a writer. But it
was after and even darkening for that matter, that I've

(58:02):
realized that it's the undead doesn't really mean a ghost.
The undead is something which is not dead, which is
infinitely living. So it's a very far superior spiritual power.
It could be the all pervading Mother Goddess. I don't know,

(58:23):
So the concept of undread is very spiritual and that's
what I'm learning now And maybe in my future works,
I'm able to write about it.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Yeah, that's nice. So literally led by the oracle into this.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
We can see that.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
And similar things were also obviously I told you, like
my mother was visiting these astrologists and everything, and similar
focas were made by the astrologists looking at the charts
or whatever. I'm not an astrologist, so I won't be
able to tell you exactly what they are. But yeah,
so those are some interesting incidents.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
And as a.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
All these things were kind of encouraging me to, you know,
look more, look into it more, and the next flow
and somehow, I think even the whole podcast that we
were discussing before we started this one, that podcast also
kind of pushed me into the same zone.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
Yeah. I think everything is happening.

Speaker 4 (59:22):
For a reason.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (59:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
Sometimes I think it's good to go with the flow.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
Yeah. Yeah. And now sometimes when you feel like it's
done this.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Yeah, and you've got your own you re interpreted it now.

Speaker 4 (59:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Spiritual and the dark side, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
Everything will have whatever is unknown will have a dark side.
It's just that we have to decide whether we have
to step in into.

Speaker 4 (59:50):
It or not.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
Once you step into it, then it becomes becomes regular,
It becomes like that sunny.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Day, yeah, which you don't seem to enjoy too much
too many.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
No, it's not like I don't enjoy, it's just yeah,
so for me that any day is that sunny day.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Yeah yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, that's the default setting, the sunny.

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
Day default setting.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
Yeah yeah, yeah. True. So tell me you know any books, movies,
et cetera. You know, as a horror writer, which you
know you can recommend of which you have particularly enjoyed.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
There are quite a few books which I have enjoyed,
not just horror. But if you are specifically talking about horror,
then Rosemary's Baby is my all time favorite.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Yeah. I know it's a very typical question, but I
also know that even somebody like me, we all look
for recommendations.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
You know what, Yeah, then you should definitely. I mean,
if you have not read Rosemary's Maybe, then please do.
It's it's a bible for I think a lot of
people say Stephen King.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
I've mead Stephen King when I was in colleges to
love it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Really, Stephen King is like everybody has read it at
least one book once one time in your life.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
People have read it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
But rose Mary's Maybe by irrel Avian is a book
that every horror enthusiasm must because the thing is it's
a spoiler, but there is no supernatural entity, yet there
is horror. That's what makes it very very interesting. And

(01:01:29):
if possible, or if you don't have time, just watched a.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
Movie, yeah no, I have time, I'll read the book.
The books are usually better.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
Books are better. See.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
The thing is the book is the movie is true
to the books. So whatever you're reading the book, you'll
see in the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
As okay okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
So that way, the director has been very time to
the writer because most of the time Stephen King's books,
when they come out as movies, they are totally interpreted
in a different way. And the Shining is an example.
It's a book that you if you have read, amazing,
but it's a recommendation. Otherwise, the movie Shining is a

(01:02:04):
bible for all filmmakers on how to make a film.
But the thing is, Stephen King hated that movie and
that movie was directed by Stanley Kubrick, who is the
godfather among filmmakers. So despite of that, the writer who
originally wrote the book, Stephen King, the King of Horror,

(01:02:26):
hated Kubrick's version of the Shining, but I think both
are important. Time in the book is an important work
in the genre, and the film as well is an
important work in the genre if you get time.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
Read the book and then watch the movie. I personally
like the movie more.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
Okay, it's an unpopular opinion, but I like the movie
more because it's more psychological than supernatural. Maybe that's why
it's kind of more interesting. And other than that, I
think we've got so many Puranas that we should read.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
It's it's so funny. You know again, this is sir
that you know you answering. You're saying things which I
mean to ask you. I was just about to ask
you this like the third or fourth time this has happened.
Maybe because you're discussing supernatural stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:03:15):
Maybe maybe the spirits around us are.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
Trying to I was just going to ask you, what
about mythology? What about you know? Anyway?

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
Tell me no mythology is the thing is, so the
Purans that are there, it's very it's very difficult to
read them as they are because it's one incident inside
another incident inside another incident.

Speaker 4 (01:03:41):
So it becomes very.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
Difficult to understand, especially if you're a younger reader or
a reader with very less patience than very difficult, then
you should really go for the interpretations which are available.

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
But then with the interpretation comes comes the bias of the.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Writer, the opinions of the writer, which kind of makes
it very difficult for the reader to.

Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
Interpret it in their way.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
But if you have the time, patience, and a lot
of patients, then you should definitely go with the raw
translations of the Puranas. Try to make your own interpretation.
That's always helpful. Puran is what I'm reading now. I'm
taking a lot of time. I'm also keeping reading another

(01:04:32):
interpretation of Baby byworthm by your Men, and these other
two books that I'm reading right now.

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
In that particular.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
So anything you'd like to say in closing about the book, anything.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
To say, I mean, anybody who's see the thing is
one thing which I really want to add here is.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
A lot of people whenever I've on for these live
sessions or you know, talk sessions.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
I'm talking about talk sessions, not live sessions, the audience usually,
especially when it's a school or something like that, the
audience is most like horror.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
Yeah, So the one thing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Which I really want to mention, is that, like you
had said, don't reject the book because it has a
cover that looks like a horror book.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
Just can't get you. I just pick up the book
and start reading. You just have to step inside that
unknown ones.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Yes, yeah, I agree. And your book is absolutely like
you said, it's psychological, social. There are so many things
in it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
It's layered. It's very layered. It's not just the rain
and thunder and the Banian trees. Is a lot of
other things going on as well.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
The tropes are there, the classic troops are there, but
then the character, which is what I also somebody else
was also telling me one of the most overused archetypes
in classic horror is your gothic horror is the damsel

(01:06:17):
in distress.

Speaker 3 (01:06:19):
You don't have it in this book. Even if if
she is in distress, she herself finds a way out.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
Yeah, that's why this book is kind of despite using
all the tropes, it kind of turns out as an
evolution in this genre.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
So tell me any chance of this being made into
a movie or a second a sequel to the book
or something. Have you thought about it?

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
Movie?

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
We are trying. Let's see what happens. It's all the
stars have to align in the right way. Obviously efforts
have to be made. But still, as for a second part,
I can talk about it right now. Yeah, there is
no sequel, but you know that the.

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
Ending is open.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
You know that there is somebody who's not really what
he has been shown as. So he's going to appear
in the.

Speaker 4 (01:07:15):
Next book.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
But that's not a horror book, okay, that's a mytho
fiction and a fantasy kind of a multi fiction. And
you've got that character reappearing, and he's the one who's
going to guide the protagonist in his journey.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
Okay, you know the character. I'm not going to got it?

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
Have you already started writing it? I want to read it,
That's what I'm asking.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
No, I just so right now I am working on that.
So this month and the next time taking off from
taking time off, and I'm trying to I.

Speaker 4 (01:07:51):
Have a story in my head.

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
It's just that's why it's you see that last epilogue there, Yeah,
but I need to just put it on paper. The
darkne will be back, but not as the main character,
but as one of the characters.

Speaker 4 (01:08:07):
Okay, in the shadows in the shadows.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Maybe there's a universe out there, I mean horror universe
which I'm trying to build in which your Dakini and
the next film hero and another character channel even from
Darkma somebody will be coming, so all these will be interconnected.
Yea was the previous fiction which I wrote for Halpercollins.

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
So a lot of readers they thought that Dakni has
something to do with Dakma, because even in Dakma, you've
got a protagonist and you've got a I mean, you've
got a journalist who's running an independent news agency which
is inspired from your news laundries and your prints and

(01:08:58):
all those things. So so you had a very similar
kind of SETI and it's in Bombay Blaball, which again
makes an appearance here. So yes, somewhere it's all tied together.
But again Dakini is not a sequel to that, nor
is the next one. But the characters might appear, okay, yeah,

(01:09:21):
because otherwise you have to see you have to invest
time in establishing your characters. If you just use fresh
characters all the time, then like in Darknee, if I
don't establish my character, then you can actually cut off
fround fifty.

Speaker 3 (01:09:37):
To sixty pages, right, so the next book.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
So that I can concentrate in the story. I can
always get back the characters from the other books. You
don't have to re establish you know each character.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
Again and again again again. So yeah. So it's a
single universe. It's a single world, but different stories, not
see quards.

Speaker 1 (01:10:02):
Yeah, interesting, that works. I'm waiting for them.

Speaker 3 (01:10:04):
I hope, so, I hope. So LETSI thank you Harry,
thank you so much. And yeah,