Ep 48: Polyamorist Arundhati Ghosh: All love is messy & beautiful

For Arundhati Ghosh, polyamory means “the desire, the ability and the practice of loving more than one person simultaneously, with or without sexual intimacy, and with the consent of all.” A practising polyamorist, cultural practitioner and social activist, the 53-year-old is the author of All Our Loves: Journeys with Polyamory in India, published by Aleph.

In her earlier years, she felt her feelings resonated with Ghalib’s couplet, Hazaron khwahishen aisi ki har khwahish pe dam nikle; Bahut nikle mere armaan lekin phir bhi kam nikle.” Here, she talks about how polyamory is not shallow, but a deep exploration of love, her dislike of the overarching concept of “one true love”, dealing with jealousy and the idea of commitment.

In this candid talk, Arundhati talks about exploring relationships minus the “relationship escalator” or conventional stops of marriage and dating, living a life that is “more honest and truthful to myself and others”. She quotes late author John Berger: "Never again shall a single story be told as though it were the only one." Listen in!

Timestamps:
01:00 What is polyamory and how is it different from a “situationship”?
08:30 One true love and the monogamy as a majoritarian trend
16:36 The relationship escalator…what’s next?
20:40 On her experience of monogamy
22:25 Her journey with polyamory
27:27 Polyamory historically in cultures
28:47 Navigating social openness as a polyamorist
33:53 Being a solo polyamorist and living with loneliness
35:45 Nesting partners and dealing with jealousy
45:11 What commitment means in polyamory
50:47 Managing multiple relationships; setting boundaries
56:00 The Indian legal system and polyamory
01:00:05 Red flags in polyamory; gaslighting
01:06:20 Who is it for?
01:09:10 Why polyamory works for her


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, Welcome to Swishing Mindsets. This is Radha and today
we are speaking to Adundati Ghosh, a practicing polyamorist and
author of All Our Loves Journeys with Polyamory in India
published by Alif. She's also a cultural practitioner and social activist.
I'll start with garlips couplet that Aunda has mentioned in
her book hasarkl boath Nikolay Mary Arman Lacin Phibi Kamnikley.

(00:27):
So welcome Arundati.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you so much, Thank you and Radha for having
me on Swishing Mindset.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
So you know, I started with a couplet because I
think you know, you've said that that resonated with you
when you were trying to come to terms with you know,
trying to find expression for being polyamorous. Yeah, so that
she started with that and it says it so well.
So tell me first of all, what is polyamory and
to write at the start like what is it not?

(00:55):
Because you know, we heard a lot about situationships these days.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, so yeah, you know, so what is polyamory? Now
the beauty this is where the beauty starts from. That
Polyamory can be defined as people who practice it wants
to define it. So within a very broad parameter, you
would decide what your polyamory is going.

Speaker 4 (01:19):
To look like.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
So I can share with you what my polyamory looks like.
So I have defined it for myself, saying that it
is the desire, the ability, and the practice of loving
more than one person simultaneously with or without sexual intimacies,

(01:41):
but with the consent of all So and there are
bits and parts in that. Why I specifically talk about desired, ability,
and practice is because a lot of our desires could
be limited by our abilities, which comes from any kinds
of privileges that some of us have and some of

(02:02):
us don't have. And then the practice of it is
important because I feel in some way most people I
have met in my life are polyamorus in their head.

Speaker 4 (02:14):
They do love more than one person.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
You can't live an entire lifetime loving just one person
in a particular way. But whether you would want to
have the ability and the privilege and the circumstances to
actually practice it makes the cut or makes the difference.
So that's why I say all the three desire, ability,
and practice is important for me to be a polyamorous person,

(02:40):
and It's interesting you talk about situationship, because that's a
word I have only heard from my young friends very recently,
and I looked it up and I realized that, you know,
there are some words that are defined by what it
is not. So when I tried to read up on it,
I saw it is not romance and it is not

(03:01):
fully casual. So I'm trying to imagine this vague space
between these two things, that it is not just friendship,
it's more than friendship, it's less than love. And then
what stays in between is such a huge space. Actually,
so is it the becoming of a relationship.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
I don't know. I am not an expert.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
On situationship, so, but what I can tell you about
polyamori is that it is very defined. There is a
it is love. Some people might define it with sexual intimacy,
some people may not. There are lots of asexual, even
iromantic people within within polyamorous communities. But I think here

(03:49):
the two words polly and amari are important. That it's
many and it is love. And so therefore you can
understand why it may be different from a lot of
other non monogamous ways of life, that it can be
so That's also something I wanted to say is technically

(04:12):
the word gammy means marriage, so when you say monogamy,
it's single marriage. And therefore I make that distinction that
it's monoamory if you're not talking about marriage, if you're
just looking at love, then if you're looking at one love,
it's monoamory.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
There are some people who would say they are.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Serial or like one by one, so they love one
person but it ends, and then they love another person,
so they see their life that way. That's somewhere in between.
And then you have polyamors who believe that they have
the desirability and practice of loving more than one person
at a time. Yeah, that's how I would probably define it.

(04:57):
I mean, the book talks about at length about what
it is not because there are just so many misconceptions.
It's not just about sex, it's not shadow.

Speaker 4 (05:07):
It does.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Believe in building long term, nurturing relationships. It is not
something that you do because you haven't found the one
in your life and you're just doing time past with
it to see. It is not a swamah where you
know you're you're just dating multiple people so that you
choose one.

Speaker 4 (05:30):
All these are.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Valid ways of love. I mean every I have deep
respect for anybody who loves, because I think love is
so hard all kinds of love one, two, three, many,
Any love, any gender, any sexuality. Love itself is hard,
but it does get harder if you're going to be
in relationships and love that are not approved by the

(05:55):
maturity or not the conventional or not the traditional ways.

Speaker 4 (05:59):
Of it gets harder slightly.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
And in some cases, as we know in India or
anywhere else, actually love is political. You can get killed
for loving the wrong kind of person, whether it is
across religion or caste, or gender or sexuality, all of that.

Speaker 4 (06:17):
Right.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
So it's not to say that polyamory is any better
of us poler or hotter, more progressive, or less progressive.
It's just to say it is one of the ways
in which some of us love and lead our lives,
and it is as valid as any other way.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, thanks for explaining it so well, and you in
your book understand that you know we'll discuss it later.
That you've written a lot of red flags if you're
into a polyamorous relationship and it's not just a substitute
for somebody who wants to cheat you know.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Yes, yes, it's not convenience.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
You wake up, your partner finds out you've been cheating,
and you say, you know, I'm just polyamorous.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yes, that's not what it is. So we'll get into that.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
But you know what jumps out at me is like,
you know, we've all been conditioned for this one true love.
Like last year on Valentine's Day, I spoke to an author,
you know, who spoke about finding that one true love
and coming home to one person. Right, so we all
kind of I say, conditioned, or we believe in it,
or you know, we search for it. And so you

(07:29):
know when you say that love, you know, like you know,
the entire time you were explaining, you were talking about love.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, so you know there's.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Many loves and this in your book Alls you've written
about how you know for you what brings your joys
is exploration.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yes, right, it's a journey.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
It's not a destination, right, And you know, you I
think I've gone through your book too much, you know,
so it's just in my head.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
I'm so glad. I'm still glad rather that I've gone
through the book.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
So you know you've written about the relationship escalator right,
you don't have all that.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah, do I get it right?

Speaker 4 (08:04):
Yes? Completely? Yes?

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Okay, So you know so your relationships, I'm as human
doesn't have that escalator. So if you can talk about
love and loving many people and you know that relationship escalator,
that is missing, how is it if it's just a journey?

Speaker 4 (08:20):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (08:21):
How do you love for so many people? I'm sorry
you know if I'm sounding no, no, no.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
You're sounding all And these are perfectly perfectly fine questions,
and question is actually about love.

Speaker 4 (08:32):
The more questions we ask, I think the problem begins
when we stop asking these questions.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
And take things as legacy, or take them for granted,
or just take them because that's how they have been
for how we have been used to seeing them. So
you know you talked about one true love. Now, for
the longest time, I've thought that in this phrase, what
gets my goat more? The one part or the true part?
What do I dislike more? And I think I dislike
both equally. I'll give you the reasons. The reason I

(08:59):
dislike true is because when you call something true, you're
calling everything else false or not quite so true. And
that's a great disservice to all the other loves that
we have, which means when people who look for this
one true love finally find the love that they will
settle with, are they actually saying that every other love

(09:20):
in their lives are those people who mattered, or those
relationships they had from where they also gained so much
and what has made them what they are today in
bits and parts are all false.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
So you know, it just hurts.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
It hurts the whole idea of relationship building between people.
If the moment you found something that you want to
settle down with, you call everything else false, right, because
by calling something true, that's exactly what somebody does.

Speaker 4 (09:50):
You know.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
The other thing is my big, big issue with one.

Speaker 4 (09:56):
You know, John.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Berger, who's written a lot about art and philosoph has
a fantastic line, and I think it holds true for
me and many people like me, not just in our
love lives, but.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
In life in general, in politics, in everything that we
see around us.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
That he said that let not a single story be
told as if it is the only one. So that's
my problem with one, because the moment you say one,
your entire energies are focused on homogagnizing something. And today

(10:34):
you know, we're seeing it around us, even in politics,
this whole thing about one language, one culture, one nation,
leading to one leader everything. So I think that I
have a deep distaste for one, the idea of one.
I've always been someone who's believed in the many, who's
believed in the collective, who's believed in diversity, who's believed

(10:56):
in a polyphonic universe of multiple ways of being, multiple
ways of.

Speaker 4 (11:01):
Thinking and co existing together. Now this is a deeper
side of the one.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
My problem with the one part, but in an more
philosophical problem that I have, political problem that I have,
But the more practical one is this, at the moment
you said, you know so, A friend of mine, very
jokingly once told me, when I started writing about I

(11:26):
can't find mine, how do you find many? In the
same joking manner, playful manner, I said, you know, the
moment you stop looking for one, you will find many.

Speaker 4 (11:36):
Because when we go looking for one.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
The list that we have for that bazzard, when we
are going looking for one, that list of needs and
desires is huge.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
It's absurd.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
It not only has what we need and want, it
also has the fears that have been put into us.

Speaker 4 (12:01):
We want guarantees from so many things we want.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
It's like the ruins of everybody's broken dreams is on
that list. So that list for looking for these other
things I want. My mother used to say, are you
going to Umatulave? You knowly is the place where they
make in Kolkata, they make the images of the ts. Right,

(12:25):
so saying you know, with that kind of list, you
can only get one ready mate for.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
You, And I've got it on this that one person, right.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
That one and every thing is focused on that one person. Now,
the thing is imagine a world where you're going out
with this very sharp, strong, long, absurd, harsh list of demands.

Speaker 4 (12:46):
Everybody else also has a list like that.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
So when people are looking at you, they are looking
at you with that criticality, They're looking at you with
that harshness and ticking of these all these things that
you have to fulfill, and when you don't, the sense
of inadequacy, the sense of self loathing is tremendous. So
this this idea of this one that you have, this

(13:09):
one person is problematic from all these angles.

Speaker 4 (13:14):
The burden of it is just too much. And I've always.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
Felt that instead of doing that, if we could find
sparks of things that we like, passion, courage, compassion, commitment
in honesty, care in the people that we meet, and
find sparks that connect with the sparks that we have

(13:40):
in us. They don't have to match all the sparks.
They can match some of the sparks we have, and
we look towards building enduring, long term relationships. That works
much better for me. And you know you said whereas
one find all the love? Interestingly, and I mentioned this
in the book, nobody has ever asked a mother with

(14:03):
more than one children, where does she find all the love?
This question only comes up when we're thinking of partners.

Speaker 4 (14:11):
My response to that is why should it come.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Up when you're thinking of partners, Because in any case
in your life, you do love your parents, you do
love your partner, you do love your kids, you do
you if you're married, you're in laws and larger families
that you take on, your friends, your community.

Speaker 4 (14:34):
There is enough love.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
So why does this question of where is the love
coming from? Come when it is about a partner? And
I think it is deeply embedded in the way monoamuri
or monogamy has over time embedded itself in our psyche.
And I see that as a result of four things really,

(14:58):
and the book talks about that. Patriarchy certainly because monogamy
was required in a certain way. The woman specifically had
to have one husband so that you knew whose child
it was, right, it's very it's very clear why and
where the inheritance were needed to go.

Speaker 4 (15:16):
So it's financial, economic, patriarchal family.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
Reasons, Colonization and Christianity together, because when Colonization and Christianity
that believed in this one God and outside of this
God everything else's false idea and came into different cultures
that were polyphonic, multi sort of god led or multi
power led cultures. Anyway, it sort of made this demand

(15:42):
of oneness from conjugal lives as well. And of course
there is capitalism that benefits more from all of this
put together. So I see monogamy and the attachment to
monogamy and it becoming like the majoritarian thing as a
result of all these historical and you know, sort of

(16:04):
social reasons end of the day.

Speaker 4 (16:07):
And of course I'm not a scholar.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
I have just tried to understand them from a very
practical point of view. So even in the book you
will not find this into a scholarly analysis. But there
are scholars who've done deep work. I've read some of them,
tried to understand it, and I've distilled what I could
in the book so people like me can understand, who
are not academics, but for need to know the reasons

(16:32):
why we are where we are. You know, coming back
to your question about they escalate, now you know what happens,
and I'll give you a very heteronormative, typical way of
Monogrammer's way of looking at the world.

Speaker 4 (16:50):
Barnet's girl boy likes girl, girl likes boy a few dates.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
When you check out each other's actually if your culture
is permissive of that or you know, in that kind
of situation, and then what's the thing The escalator is
you're constantly asking what next? So next is what girl
waiting for boy to propose mostly then engagement, then Shahdi,

(17:17):
then kids, and you're growing all together. This is the
escalator that you're on. You can't hop off this escalator.
It is an expected escalator that you're on going from
one thing to another. But imagine relationships where you could
define the journey yourself and what that journey is going
to be, and that journey is going to be more

(17:39):
about what the two of you want to discover with
each other, rather than an escalator.

Speaker 4 (17:44):
That has been set. Now, yes, there are many people
who want that escalator.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
That is what they want also, and it's fine if
that's what they want, but to expect that everybody is
going to want.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
That escalator itself is a is a problem. You know.
What also happens, I think in.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
This is that you are unable to define the relationship
that you want just between those people two or three
or more.

Speaker 4 (18:17):
It has to fit into the design that's been provided.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
You can customize, you can put usa customize it this
way that way, but more or less it has to fit.
That's for example, today many people decide, oh, we're going
to be child fief, we don't want kids. It's fine,
but they're still fighting that battle because the escalator tells
you the next stop is child stop. So everybody else
is asking you about it, et cetera, et cetera. Right, Also,

(18:44):
there's a before that there's a marriage stop because you
have to get married at a particular time. And so
I think this is the expectation that everybody will fit
into this mold is it self problematic and I think
already allows you to do these kind of definitions.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, you know, the way you're putting it, it sounds
less transactional somehow, right, is you know, because you don't
have a shopping list that you're going out with that
you know, I want one person and there's no escalator,
like you said, there are no stops, so the stops
are decided by you if you want it.

Speaker 4 (19:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
So is it really as great as that sounds, this
fluid way, and you know, as wonderful or it can be.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
I'm sure for some people, you know, And and.

Speaker 4 (19:29):
So is monogomy.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
I mean, alchemy is wonderful well for people for whom
it works.

Speaker 4 (19:34):
Yeah, I know one of ours couples, some of them
are super hardful.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
They've decided this is the life they want to read,
and and that's it doesn't work for me, but it
works for them, And that's perfectly fine.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
And isn't it messy? Of course it is? Isn't it lonely?
Of course at times it is?

Speaker 2 (19:51):
And the same hole is for Parlia money that it's
just that it has a different set of wings.

Speaker 4 (19:57):
And I find these rules more human more.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Again, I find them, and many people like me find them,
more doable, more respectful of desire, more, you know, overall
a place that you can be the way you want
to define it with your partners. So it is as
beautiful as it is my sea, like any love.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yeah, So you know you've also said that you know,
like you know, I was going to ask you about
love as in finite versus finite, that we just have
this much to give to one person. And you've said
in your book that you know your journey in polyamory
has taught you generosity.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
Yeah, right. And you've also you've also been monoamorous. You
I have.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, I was married for a little bit of time
in between for a few years, and during that time
I then, honestly I didn't even know that I.

Speaker 4 (20:53):
Was part right, I was just discovering.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
But during that time, yes, I have, And there have
been relationships for in my life where I have been
monaamrus for certain periods of time. But I think essentially
from the inside, I am a polyamorous person. So I've
tried monamory, and I think I'm happier when i'm I

(21:16):
have the freedom to love as many people as I
want to.

Speaker 4 (21:19):
That doesn't mean so that's another thing. It doesn't mean that.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
Every polyamorous person always has a bevy of partners.

Speaker 4 (21:27):
A polyamorous person can also have just one partner.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, it doesn't mean that if you don't have many,
you're not polyamorous.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
You have to have no partners, not like any any
You could still be polyamrous because that's who you are,
that's what you what you So it's it's it's something
that you believe in. But you at that point you
may not have a partner, or may have just one,
or may have two, but the fact that you believe

(21:55):
that it's possible for you to have If you feel
like that.

Speaker 4 (21:57):
Towards somebody, you can do it with honest Steve, with commitment,
with consent of the people who are involved.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, so you know, and they if that's okay with you,
I'd like to talk about your personal struggle. I'm sure
it's been a struggle coming to this point and you know,
being comfortable with it, and you know, realizing that you
are polyamorous, as you said, so have been you know,
first realizing accepting it and so I.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Think initially because everything around you that talks about love,
and you know, in our in our culture, we say that, oh,
love is hashash, but it's not. From the time I
was a child, you're hearing although all your Hindi movies
are about love, all books and studies that you read
are about love. All the best songs that you heard
are about love. But everything tells you that there is

(22:45):
one true love and you have to finally find it.
That's your goal in life. Like bone milato, like everything
else is bunker right. So in that situation, when a
child young person sees that they deeply they're feeling, they're
having feelings for more than one person, what you essentially

(23:06):
think is that you're wrong. You don't think that society
is wrong, right, You think there's something wrong with you.
I thought of myself as shallow. Maybe I'm fickle. Maybe
I don't have the tenacity, Maybe I don't have the
strength of character, strength of mind, you know, to stick
to one person. I never asked why should I? That

(23:26):
question came much later that why should I stick to
one person? If this is what I want to do,
and if I'm being honest about it and open about it,
why should I? But it took me a long time
since as friend of mine Kushaik, who went to the
US and was living in a among people who were polymers.

(23:47):
That's why I first heard the word. And he gifted
me a book called The Ethical Slut, which is as
polymaut as people all over the world will tell you.
It's like a defining book. It is one of the
first books I think that came out, and it came
out in nineteen seventy two, I think the same year
we were born. I think it's that early in the seventies, and.

Speaker 4 (24:09):
It talked about polymery.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
How do you create non monogamous families relationships?

Speaker 4 (24:16):
I started reading.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
But I still have doubts, like is it possible to
do that in India? Given that our families are so
into our lives.

Speaker 4 (24:26):
Here, we never really get rid of our families.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Freedom means very different things in India than it means
in other sort of cultures. Our community, cast, religion, all
of them have their sort of pause in the lives
that we need right. But then slowly I started meeting
people here as well who do lead polymerus lives. I

(24:52):
started realizing that whether they call it or not, there
are people leading different kinds of lives that you must
also understand that in our twenties, even the queer movement
wasn't visible. People didn't talk about it, so you didn't
have precedents to figure out how could you love differently.

Speaker 4 (25:10):
Over the last twenty years, the huge battles and the struggles.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
That the queer movement has fought in India and the
way the movement has actually shaped the many ways in
which we think about love has been a huge post
to people who practice polyiamri because there's so much to
learn from that struggle as well, and I have as well.

(25:40):
It's only about I think seven eight years that I
started writing publicly online in social media about Parliamrie because
I felt there were so many things I was struggling
with learning and learning that I needed to share it
and also find out what others think and and Facebook

(26:00):
in this hashtag polyamory is something I started and then
people would comment, agree, disagree.

Speaker 4 (26:08):
Some parts were.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
Hard because a lot there was initially abuse as well.
People sent you nasty messages, they called you a slut,
they called you all sorts of things, and some of
it was threatening as well.

Speaker 3 (26:26):
But I must say those.

Speaker 4 (26:27):
Were far less than.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
The conversations that got going and I realized that I
come from many of the privileges that other people don't have.
I had the privilege of having a job, being well respected.

Speaker 4 (26:44):
In society, having friends who understood where I came from,
at least tried to understand my point of view. These
are privileges we.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
Take for granted a certain economic background. These are things
we take for granted, and for any kind of life
that you want to lead that is different from what
the majority does. Privileges are some things that you have
to always keep in mind.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting, you know, I just want
to go back to that. You know that you said
that earlier because of paternity to be established and it
was patriarchal, you know, But you also mentioned at the
beginning of your book about a lot of ancient cultures
and it's still being practiced now. There was a secondary
pair father and a primary father, and I.

Speaker 4 (27:34):
Don't know how many of them still practice it. I'm
not sure. I wanted to give these examples in the.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Books so that you know, when you before you come
to contemporary polyma, think of this as, oh, we have
begun this thing.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
There was always.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Cultures that looked at the fluidity of gender, sexuality and
relationships of romance and sex and intimacies, and these intimacies
with emotional, physical, sexual intellectual were functioned in a fluid.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
Manner within many communities.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
And so this is nothing new or the way it
is practiced under the current you know, sort of modern
society is slightly different.

Speaker 4 (28:20):
But we also have our roots in very ancient cultures.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
And I had a lot of fun doing that part,
you know, and I realized that this is again, this
is not an academic, scholarly book. They wanted to give
examples so that people it's just one paragraph about each
of those cultures and if you're interested, you could go
Google and find out more.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
So yeah, yeah, another thing, you know, you know, you're
so open about, you know, being polyamorous. Now you've written
a book as well. Right, but how and your mom knows, right,
you guess.

Speaker 4 (28:56):
Then she struggles to understand in her own language.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
And yeah, and my mother, I realized what she finds
most difficult is the physical sexual angle of.

Speaker 4 (29:05):
It, coming from a more traditional you know. But she's
also quite a fire brand.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
She actually ran away with my dad, who was a
lower cast person, and she came from a brandant family.
So they were both studying medicine together and they fell
in love, and her family like.

Speaker 4 (29:21):
They took her away into the village, locked her up.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
She ran away from there and got married to my dad.
And so in her own way, she's broken traditions. Yeah yeah,
but she finds it hard. So that's the part she
finds hard, I think.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
And one can understand love, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
But you know, how open can you be?

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Like you know, in your book, like you know, there's
this couple where it's like the lady is polyamorus and
she's married.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
Yeah, and she visits.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
Her and she is the primary partner for both her partners, right, yeah,
and she says that I cannot because she's married, she
cannot introduce her other partner. How open can you be,
you know, personally and even for other polyamorous people, even
though you're so open, can you openly introduce you this
is one partner, that's another partner, or you just say

(30:12):
this is a friend, you know, how does it work?

Speaker 4 (30:14):
So it depends?

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Okay, So polyamar in the content part is very important, right,
So how public you're going to be also depends on
each of those people and their situations in life and
where they are in society. So within polyamrous groups or
support groups. People may be open to each other, but
they're not open there at various stages of coming out

(30:36):
as they say. You know so, so say, someone like
me is probably as out as you can be in
terms of But what you have to remember is.

Speaker 4 (30:45):
That I am a solo, polyamous person.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
I am not married, I don't have children, and therefore
these all are sort of privileges that.

Speaker 4 (30:54):
Allow me to be as open as I am today.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
If I have a child who goes too and I
have to worry about what his friends or their parents
are going to talk about, I don't know how open
I could be in that situation.

Speaker 4 (31:08):
Right. So, I think the.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Kind of life I have chosen has allowed me in
some ways to be as open as I am.

Speaker 4 (31:17):
But again, with my partners, I need their.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
Consent to whether I can be open about how I
introduce them, and I must say I have both. I have,
I have had and have partners who are open and
out and who are not open and out or are
out only to some people. So it's a very delicate

(31:41):
balance as well, because you also realize, especially by writing
the book, I had to be very careful how much
I give away of my life because my life fortunately
unfortunately does not belong only to me. In a monogamous,
monoamoerous situation, you share a life with one person. But
here I share a life with multiple people, and their

(32:05):
sensitivity is are also at stake, you know. So therefore
I share as much as I can with the permission
of those who are in my life mostly and otherwise
what I share is very.

Speaker 4 (32:23):
Made into a non personal thing.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah, So it.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Is about the privacy and sensitivity is about so many people,
and therefore polymerus people are also very worried about them
being suddenly outed in a situation. So even if you
meet a bunch of people in your polymrin group or
support group, if you're meeting them in other social situations,

(32:54):
your relationship and how you interact with them has to
be very mindful of.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
Their privacy and sensitivities as well.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
I guess that that is in any relationship, right, more
so in this because you know, in other relationships there's
a social sanction.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yes, the consequences are less harsh, shell, Yeah, the consequences
can be very damning for that person.

Speaker 4 (33:19):
See if by mistake, I take somebody's name.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Even in this conversation, you and me are having You're
having such a relaxed conversation about this. And if I
mistake I take somebody's name that I'm not supposed to
in the sense that I don't have their permission and
I don't know consequences they are going to face. That's
going to become very difficult. This will be public. And
then in such cases one has to, like then call

(33:43):
you up. I have to call you up.

Speaker 4 (33:44):
And say, hey, can you please edit that.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
One has to be mindful of those more mindful because
of the consequences.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Right you also, you know, use the term solo polyamorous.
That's yourself. And what I loved is what you wrote
about loneliness. You know, you said everybody faces loneliness. It's
not I mean, I'm paraphrasing that. You know, it's nothing
to escape from. It's a condition, like any human condition,
right Like, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Know, you know. I thought this a lot because sometimes
I feel maybe I'm like a split personality as well,
because in some ways I'm super extrovert. If people, if
you ask my friends about me, they'll say I am.
But in some ways I'm also very intovertage. I like
my own time and space. I like my alone time,

(34:29):
et cetera. And I have also, I think because of
all of this and the way I am and my thoughts,
et cetera, and I found it very hard to share
with people initially that I used to feel lonely and
loneliness at that time for me was about a certain
condition that I was put in. So it had to

(34:49):
do with the outside. I wasn't looking inside me to
find why am I lonely? So it was something that
had to be cured, that had to be rectified, that
had to be changed.

Speaker 4 (35:00):
It took me a very long time to realize that
some of the loneliness, not all of.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
Them, come from the self, and it's not social.

Speaker 4 (35:10):
Some of the loneliness, of course, is social.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
And the fact that it is just like a state
of being and you don't have to recover from it
necessarily unless it's playing have uc with your mental health.
And that's why very important to also probably seek help
when you when you feel.

Speaker 4 (35:33):
The burden of loneliness and you're unable.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
To deal with it, and seeking help is I think
the best way to be because then somebody can help
you understand what it is about.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
Yeah, So I've.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
Just learned these new terms, and I like to use them.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
You know that, you know, you talk about a nesting partner,
right that you live with and negotiating all that, and
there's jealousy as well, right, and you said.

Speaker 4 (36:00):
Yes the green monster, Yes.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yeah, and you know you said that even you when countered,
like you know something like oh that's our bed and
our space or whatever it is. You know, so so
you know if like, you know, how do you deal
with jealousy or does that come up?

Speaker 4 (36:17):
Some people who don't tell it always comes up? Okay,
various degrees. Yeah, I think it's like this. It's the
same thing like loneliness. You know that whether you you
see jealousy, you try and understand what is jealousy? What
is that emotion? Actually? And I spent a lot of
time working with jealousy because.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
I used to be a super jealous and for me,
jealousy when I used to get one of those jesse
when I would get one of those jealous spaces spirals
so badly, I would get physically ill.

Speaker 4 (36:53):
Really and I think, very proud.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Person, I have super eCos, so jealousy me even more.
And when I started unraveling what is it about? I
realized that jealousy has to do with things deeply.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
Embedded in you. It was my insecurities, my feeling.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
Of being displaced or abandoned, my inability to see somebody's
heart as a land with more than one chair to
sit on, which if I saw that place having just
one chair, which meant if somebody else was sitting on it,
I wasn't.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
Sitting there, right, I was displaced and abandoned it.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
I realized it has also to do with how we
are fed into a competitive circuit from the time the
air children, your parents feel very happy when you bring.

Speaker 4 (37:44):
A prize home.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
So then slowly, over a period of time, you figure
that your self worth is when you win something, and
therefore when.

Speaker 4 (37:53):
You don't have something means you've lost it.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
So this you lose a person someone right and you
or you win a person from someone as if that
someone is a is a trophy, you know.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
For two, it's like a medal to win or to lose.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
And obviously when you've lost, you feel terrible because all
your self worth has gone because you've lost that person.
So the person spending time with another partner is you
temporarily losing that birth. It's not that that's funny about
jealousy is it's not that that person would have been
with you at that time anyway, part the fact that

(38:29):
the person.

Speaker 4 (38:29):
So there are.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
Lots of reasons. And I go into details in the
book about how I've tried to understand jealousy that it's
about trespassing property, et cetera, et cetera, plus feeling abandoned,
plus feeling displaced, plus feeling competitively having lost, plus thinking
of love as a zero sum game. You know, I

(38:52):
have a baa is the easiest metaphor that comes to me,
Like you know, dabba, you have five as well as only,
so if you're giving two means you're getting less. That
kind of I figured the best way for me. And again,
people deal with it differently. There are two things that
one has to learn about jealousy. One how to deal
with your own and two how to help a partner.

(39:14):
And I talk about it in details in the book,
but basically understand where it is coming from. Is it insecurity?
Is it competition? Is it sense of abandonment? What is
the root of that jealousy? And then own the responsibility
for that feeling that it is your feeling and you
have the responsibility for it.

Speaker 4 (39:34):
Don't blame the partner for it.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
It's not the partner's action, and it's about how you
feel about that action that is making this happen.

Speaker 4 (39:43):
Talking to the partner helps if the partner is willing, just.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
You know, easing it out, staying with it, letting it
settle in your body, thinking of it as something that
you will feel. The question is what are you going
to do about it? Are you going to blame your partner,
throw it at that person, create a ruckus, or are
you going to let it pass, let it settle, rationalize
with it, Think of the reasons, Think of how much

(40:10):
your partner actually loves you in the times that are
good that you consider good. All of this actually has
eased my difficulties with jealousy over time.

Speaker 4 (40:22):
I realize another thing, you know, I feel more jealous.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
When a partner's partner is able to give them an
experience or something that I am unable. So, for example,
if my partner loves more acidly and they have another
partner who they do it with, and I'm not a biker,
and that becomes a itch. Or say my partner is

(40:52):
an academic and they have another partner with whom they.

Speaker 4 (40:57):
You know, write books.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
Together, academic book together. And I'm like, I can't do
that with that person.

Speaker 3 (41:03):
Or just share that language, just.

Speaker 5 (41:06):
Share experiences, you know, and those are But then once
you think through it, I think through what you probably
do with them that the other partner can't.

Speaker 4 (41:18):
There are all these ways in which you settle your mind,
you talk to yourself, and over your period of time.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
I mean, I hope to get to a point of
compersion one day, which is in the Poliamadi world where
I people will feel happy about their partner spending time
with another I've gotten too that place, close to that place,
but not yet. With some partners where there's great trust

(41:47):
and loyalty and commitment, I feel happy when they've spent
time with another partner and they've felt fulfilled. I feel
happy that I see that happiness in them and try
to have a share.

Speaker 4 (42:03):
In that happiness. And I must say it's hard, and
I like doing it. And what sports life without a
few hard things to do.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yeah, of course it should be a little messy.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
You should be a little messy, a little adventurous. You
should fail at some things. I mean, I'm happy to
confess that so many times I failed in you know,
and given my partners a hard time and then we
worked work through things.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yeah, but I like what you said. You know one
thing about you know that there's one chair and you've
been displaced, so actually there are many chairs.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
Your shair is still there, and you know.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
I have spoken to so many monogamous people, and you
think one would think that, oh why so we get
asked about this jealousy question. Now as poaly most people,
but so people assume monogamous people don't get jealous, and
they're jealous of so many things their husbands or spouses's wives.

Speaker 4 (43:01):
May So the worst case scenario is.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
Somebody is cheating in that relationship and you suddenly discover
it after seventeen years of living with somebody because you
pick up a straight phone call or you see your
message or something.

Speaker 4 (43:15):
That's how a lot of unfortunately.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
Long hair on a shirt, that's what, right? Yeah, yeah
you have.

Speaker 4 (43:21):
And you discover this. So that's the worst cases. Let's
not talk about worst cases.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
Let's talk about the best cases, where people are actually committed, truly,
honestly to each other. I've seen houses get jealous about parents,
spending time with parents, siblings, hobbies, traveling with girlfriends or boyfriends.

Speaker 4 (43:44):
Even children.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
I've seen husbands being jealous of their kids because their
wife is spending more time with their kids.

Speaker 4 (43:51):
So jealous. It's not something that would be polymarous people
have to deal with.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
I think, you know, polymerus people should do workshops with
others saying this is how we handle it.

Speaker 4 (44:03):
So when you're feeling it, please do this, this, this,
and you know you can handle it.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Yeah, great idea, and you know what you said.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
It's like being mindful, just sitting with a feeling, accepting it,
letting it go through you, and you know, trying to
get to the crux of what the problem is, whether
it's you know, for abandonment, in security, whatever.

Speaker 4 (44:20):
I also think another there is a very like a.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Very deep simple thing. You go into our restaurant, can
you order food? And then you look at the next
table and you think that plate is better than mine,
and you start feeling jealous of that plate. Okay, the
idea that somebody else has something that either you want

(44:47):
or that you cannot have right now, et cetera. This
I think there's intrinsically something something really basic about this
feeling that we need to control as much as possible,
because there's always going to be somebody with more than.

Speaker 4 (45:03):
What you have, more than other than et cetera. You know.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
So yeah you also, yeah, you also spoken about commitment
and how it works, you know, and a lot of
people that you've interviewed they've also talked about it. Yeah,
you know, I want to understand that. And I just
read out, you know, from your book, like you know
that my concept of commitment is you know, when you're
interviewing somebody, they've said, my concept of commitment is to

(45:29):
be with the person for the long haul. I'm committed
to making this work no matter what happens.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
Sarka had said this, right, I think Sharka has said.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
This, And that's my idea of loyalty to It doesn't
matter who my partner has sex with, or has feelings
for or loves, I will be there, yeah, right when
they need me. I will make it a point to
be there.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
So yeah, you know.

Speaker 4 (45:54):
What I used to find really weird about is there.
But loyalty and commitment is defined.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
By what you will not do with others, Like I
will not have sex with others, I will not fall
in love with others. I will So it's not defined
but by what suppose we are in a partnership.

Speaker 4 (46:17):
It's not defined by what I will do with you.
It's about what I.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
Will not do without people that will define Just to
find that really weird.

Speaker 4 (46:25):
Why is it about other people? You know?

Speaker 2 (46:28):
It's like it's almost like drawing the boundary and saying
what where you will not go, rather than.

Speaker 4 (46:36):
Saying where you will go.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
Actually, so the way I think commitment, loyalty is different, trust,
all these things they're interrogated are different in polymerous relationship
is because this other thing is not there.

Speaker 4 (46:49):
Where I want. Because polysm is, I can go anywhere, right,
there's no boundary.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
Boundaries are only defined by the people in the relationship,
the various people in the relationship. There's no boundary that
is set from before. Loyalty, commitment, etc. Is defined by
what will happen between us? When will I be there?
What can you take me for granted?

Speaker 5 (47:15):
For?

Speaker 4 (47:16):
Where can you trust me?

Speaker 3 (47:18):
If you fall ill?

Speaker 4 (47:19):
Will I be there?

Speaker 2 (47:20):
And this also depends on the intensity of the relationship,
of course how much you're committing to each other, but
also about some practical things like you might have a
primary partner, but that primary partner may be in a
different city, in which case somebody who's not your primary partner,
but one.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
Of your significant others who's in this city is.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
Your go to person for something that is more like
a medical emergency or something like that. Right, And these
are also things that so your commitment, loyalty, trust again,
like everything else in polyamar is defined by the people
and what you will make of it in that relationship,

(48:03):
rather than carving it out as a negative space of
what you will not do with others.

Speaker 4 (48:09):
Also, this links it to liberty or relationship.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yes, in monogamy or you know, monomery, till let do
us part is the kind of I mean in among
himdus though satsa jan the kind is the ultimate ideal. Right,
even people who don't.

Speaker 4 (48:30):
Believe in these there is an.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Expectation when you get into a relationship that this is
going to last forever. Nobody gets into a relationship thinking
anyway it is time back when you're thinking seriously about
a relationship.

Speaker 4 (48:45):
I think what.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Happens in polyamari is when you get into a relationship,
you concentrate more on what that relationship is going to
be and how is it going to.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
Look like, rather than how long is it going to last.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
That does not mean we don't build long term, enduring relationships.
Of course we do, but longevity is not necessarily the
first thing to look for you build a relationship. It
also has its own journey, and because of so many things,
that journey may shafte change because of other things that

(49:19):
are there in your life, your job, your hobbies, your responsibilities,
shifting of cities, all of that. You know, I know
a polyamenous person whose parents grew old and then one
of the parent passed away and the other parent was
not capable of looking after themselves, so this person had

(49:43):
to move in with that parent. That changed so many
dynamics in their lives in the way that they were polyamorous.
And so there are so many other things.

Speaker 4 (49:54):
In our lives.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
This is not the only thing we do, which is
love our partners, right, We lead fully other lives of
work and are other responsibilities. All of those things come
in when we are thinking of commitment, trust, loyalty as well.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, so you know, it's just a thought. Just you know,
at any point if I sound voyeuristic or something, just
stop me. Yeah, but you know, I'm just thinking that.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
You know, when you talk about commitment.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
It also means that you know, you go on dates,
you share time together, so you know, when you have
multiple partners, yeah where you know, and it's not just
like we said, it's not casual, you're just hooking up.
So how does it work? You know, because you know
you when you committed. Then there's also an emotional investment
time investment. You plan a dinner date, yes, plan to travel.

Speaker 4 (50:43):
All holiday together? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (50:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:46):
You know.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Thing is that relationships require efforts, time, et cetera. And
we all know in our busy lives even managing one
relationship is stuff, right, people don't find time for.

Speaker 4 (51:00):
It with children, etc.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
So more than one is tougher if you want to
give it that time. It requires a lot of effort
and time. And so therefore, when people imagine polyamorous people
having a pevy.

Speaker 4 (51:14):
Of partner, that's not true.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
We just have more than one, which can also be
two or three or the possibility of two or three.

Speaker 4 (51:24):
And it's also a lot of dating.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
So for example, I don't actively date because honestly because
I don't have the time. I have the partners that
I have, and if organically something happens, happens, but I
don't go on active dates only because like, I'm not
on any apps et cetera. Setup because I don't have

(51:47):
the time. I would have loved to. If I was
younger and had more time on my hand, I would
have certainly loved to.

Speaker 4 (51:53):
Also, apps scare me a little bit.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
I'm very appreciative applot people who are on apps and
do it because you know my.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
Generation, I'm fifty three.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
We just met at friends places or you know, friends
introduced as to people and we like to. So friends
of friends is where your dating pool starts. I think
there is neat for some amount of planning so that
it doesn't clash, so that everybody's comforts.

Speaker 4 (52:25):
Are looked into. And that's one of the reasons why
I love being a.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
Solo polyamodus people where person when I don't live with
anybody and I don't share my domestic space with anybody,
because it allows me this freedom to make these choices
with less.

Speaker 4 (52:44):
Scrutiny and effort. That then someone who's living.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
With a primary partner or a nesting partner in that case,
it is harder for them. So the person in the
book who's talked about who is married to one person
and has another significant other for them, it is more
difficult to manage. I suppose then it is for me.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
Yeah, because there's a home where you're living with a
partner and so many.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
Yes, and it is it is harder to kind of
make that kind of space, I know. And there's a
couple of interviews interviews in the book talk about that.
How So some of them have a rule that, you know,
you only bring another partner home when your domestic partner,
your nesting partner is Charlie, or you have a policy

(53:32):
that no, you can bring other partners home. You find
other spaces to meet them. But the home is only fun.
So different people define it differently. Yeah, all there are.
And also it is the partnerships are at different levels
of intimacies.

Speaker 4 (53:48):
Right. So then there are people who don't.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Have primary partners, who may have two or three partners,
but all of them are sort of weekly distance, and
they don't they don't name one partnership more.

Speaker 4 (53:59):
Important than others.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Then there are people who are in trands where three
people are involved in a relationship together, and that of
course is slightly more complicated.

Speaker 4 (54:10):
And again what is defined.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
So, for example, if three people are in a relationship together,
all three of them love each other.

Speaker 4 (54:18):
Do they do all holidays together or not.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
That's something they decide and they figure out how they
want to do it.

Speaker 4 (54:25):
And I do know people like that who initially would do.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
All holidays together and then figured that that's not how
it works for them, and then they take turns to
do holidays depending on who wants to go where. So yeah,
I think you know, it is all about the openness
to define some of these things ourselves, and not that

(54:51):
always the right choices are made. Of course, we make
tons of mistakes, like anybody, and it's okay you say sorry,
you apologize, you words someone somebody is deeply I mean,
I've done that and it's been done to me, and
you explain and.

Speaker 4 (55:08):
You basically trust that it's not done purposely to hurt you,
because that's a red flag. If it's done.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
Purposely, it's the intention.

Speaker 4 (55:20):
Otherwise you.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
That's also generosity, you know, to be generous enough to
know that you will make mistakes and so will others.
You will be hurt and you will hurt others. And
as long as you care about it, as long as
you're willing to help with the healing, as well, as
long as you apologize and take responsibility.

Speaker 4 (55:44):
For each other and the relationship. It's fine.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
We have very few years to live on this earth anyway,
and it's fine.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
Yeah, that's true. So you know, I want to discuss
the red flags a bit more. But before that, Yeah,
but before they just want to talk about the legal
bits that you've mentioned in the book. Yeah, and while
like you know, it's so important, like you've spoken to
two lawyers, I think, yes, yes, and why it's important
for polyamorous people to you know, leave a will.

Speaker 3 (56:12):
Yeah, children that.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
They are co parenting maybe may not be there. The
partner may not benefit so many things. Yeah, and also
domestic violence you've said because.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Also for writing the book, for example, and I never
thought of the legal issues. Never. It doesn't come into Again,
we come from such privilege.

Speaker 4 (56:32):
That it doesn't. I when I started thinking about the book, and.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
I started talking to other people in the polyamrine community,
and I realized very few of us I've thought through
the legal Then I spoke to lawyers, and among the
two lawyers who are there are Wind has also been
very very active in that and led many of the

(56:59):
queers in India, and so Awin is very aware of
many of the issues that the queer world has with
the legal system. And both of them, the Lashi and
Who's a lawyer and Arvin have mentioned how it's not
a question of let's change this law, let's change that law.

(57:22):
It's the entire legal system is based on heteronormativity and monogamy.
That is at the core of the foundation of the
legal system that deals.

Speaker 4 (57:38):
With relationships in India.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
And while small things like the living relationship being acknowledged,
the living arrangements of people being seen as a legal
having legal sections is being slowly acknowledged and brought into
the legals. Yeah, the heteronormativity and the monogamy part is

(58:03):
still the same.

Speaker 4 (58:04):
That hasn't changed.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
Unless these two things can change, you cannot have So
the first step has had it very beauty if we
puts it.

Speaker 4 (58:13):
The first struggle was to decriminalize.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Homosexuality, which is what happened down with you know three
seven seven. The second was the Marriage Act which still
is is a struggle for all of us, the marriagic
quality law.

Speaker 4 (58:29):
And he says that that then the third part.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
Is to look at so then what happens to polymeris
people and the many things that the legal system for
example today, don't look at for polymostybuse is.

Speaker 4 (58:41):
One thing inheritance. Who's responsible?

Speaker 2 (58:47):
Who is your you know sort of who takes decisions
for you in a medical.

Speaker 4 (58:51):
Kind of scenario.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
All these are thrown in the in the air like
and other difficulty would be that because each polyomridy situation
is different, the definition is different, unlike monogamy, which is
one fixed thing. How do you build a law around
so many variables. It's also a question, but it would
be fun for lawyers to think through this. I just

(59:14):
wanted to have it in the book because I felt
that as polymerous people, we should know, you know, and
take the recourse like I think a way is probably
one thing.

Speaker 4 (59:25):
The other is you may not have a domestic abuse.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Law that protects you from your partner or your partner's partner,
but there is always other laws, uh, battery and other
kinds of violence that you can file file against fire
for you know.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
So, yeah, it's an important subject, you know. That's it's
good that it's included in the book.

Speaker 4 (59:52):
Yes, yes, it's something you have to think about.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
Yeah. Yeah. So you know you've mentioned red flags and
you've mentioned starter to Yes, yeah, so maybe someone to.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
Two one one green flag chapter and one red flag chat.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
I am, so what is some red flags?

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
You know, you've said that polyamory is spoken of only
in terms of multiple sexual relationships and not as a
way of building relationships. That is a red flag, right
when a partner does that, So you know, so what
are some red flags?

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
So I'm okay, the book has many. Let me let
me talk about just three that I think that that's
coming out of my bland is most important.

Speaker 4 (01:00:31):
The first is that, like I said, that when you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
Entered into a polymous relationship, the terms of engagement, the
boundaries are defined by two people or three people or
four people as the case.

Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
Maybe.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Now, if there are changes that will happen, then those
in these rules are boundaries.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
Then they need to be discussed, consented, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
If any of these rules or boundaries are crossed without
the consent of other people, not once, not twice, but
time again. Because once or twice you can make a
mistake and apologize, like I said, and we're generous with
each other. But if it's happening multiple number of times
and it is hurting somebody in the equation, that's a

(01:01:15):
red flag. So that would be my first red flag,
that you are not staying committed to what you've committed.
It's very simply that you know. So that's the first
red flag. The second red flag for me is similar
to other relationship, is gaslighting somebody that not taking somebody's

(01:01:37):
feelings seriously and saying you're just being silly or you're
just so if you say I'm hurting, or you say
I don't like this, or I'm suspicious that you're not
doing what you're saying, or or you say I'm jealous
and you know, we need to talk about this, and
the other person says, hey, there's sort of an important
why is it even like you're just like that or
you're just too emotional or just that kind of gaslighting

(01:02:01):
I think is problematic, and I think that is something
that one should look at.

Speaker 4 (01:02:07):
And the third thing, which I think is most important.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Is nobody should ever do anything, do be thing that
you don't want to do. You cannot be forced into
anything either by saying that, oh this is more progressive.
And I've I've had you know. Once I started writing
about Palmari openly, so many people reached out to me

(01:02:33):
privately saying that it's fine for you to write about this,
but you know what's happened with me.

Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
And I was horrified at some.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Of those instances where mostly says heterosexual.

Speaker 4 (01:02:45):
Male men in our sort of patriarchal society.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
Take advantage of this. Oh I'm polyamorous just to play
the field. Listen, if somebody wants to play the field,
it's their business. They want to do it with people.
I'm not judging that, But what I am judging very
much is putting it under this garb of polyamory, because
it just sounds more legit, slightly more.

Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
Legit, and if you're cheating, you're just cheating. That's not polyume.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
If you want to have multiple sexual relationships with many people, fine,
that's wonderful you're exploring, but don't give it the name
of POLYMDI.

Speaker 4 (01:03:28):
Because where there is no love, you can't have a mari. No,
it means love essentially.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
So I think coursing people to say that, oh, you know,
you say you're so you're a feminist and you're so
modern and you're so contemporary, and why do you believe
in this old world kind of you know, the regressive
things like monogamy. Somebody is saying that please avoid that

(01:03:56):
person because then the intentions are certainly actually it was
it was said to a friend of mine that she
is not progressive enough for feminist enough because she's not polymerous,
and I usually resented that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:13):
I was just so angry with the person who had said.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
That, because you are actually creating a bad name for
parme by saying that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:22):
So yeah, I would say these are the three top
f lives you read the book to.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
No more, Yes, absolutely read. And he also said that
you know that partners talking about the other partners to
their primary partner or whatever, you know, because someone wnt
be comfortable with it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
Exactly, you need conditioning and sorry you you you need
consent and the other person has to agree.

Speaker 5 (01:04:46):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:04:48):
One couple said it very.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
Beautifully in the in one of the interviews where they
said that, you know, one person in that relationship used
to feel very honest by pouring everything out and feeling, oh,
I'm at the bot honest, I'm very honest. The other
person is saying, but I have to give you concept
to be that honest with me if I can't handle

(01:05:11):
it or I'm having difficulty, or I just want headlines.
So there are relationships where people say, look, don't give
me details, give me just headlines.

Speaker 4 (01:05:20):
That's all I want.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
You know, there are I know, there are polymonist relationships
where people say, only tell me that this time is
not mine. Don't tell me where you're going with, what
are you doing? I don't want to know. Just tell
me that's not my time. And then there are couples
or childs or people in a sort of polycule who

(01:05:45):
discuss in much more detail, in much more intimacies emotional, physical, whatever.
But all that also has to so if also, if
I'm sharing with you about another partner, I needer from
you to share and also need permission from the other
partner to share. So I think POLYMRI is a great

(01:06:08):
lesson in figuring consent.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
Yeah, absolutely sounds like it. Yeah, okay, some starter tips
would you like to get into that?

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
It depends on you know.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
I hope that people who are either curious to find
out what polymarus lives are about, do some reading, talk
to some polymarus people who are at least open and out,
and not just this book, but there are many books
written and this is the first one in India, but
there are many books and online resources that you can find.

Speaker 4 (01:06:43):
So read them understand if it is for you, because.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
It's not just the good parts, right, it's also the
more difficult parts. And if that's the journey you would
like to take. And once you decide, if you're already
in a monoamoerus relationship, how does your partner feel about it?

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):
You want to do it together.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
It's great if you want to do it together, because
then you also have that support, you know, and check
in with each other as to have your feelings.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
First of all, you know, sorry to interrupt like that.
Do you even know who?

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
Whether you should even explore it? Who should explore it?
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
I think multiple kinds of people. A people who are not.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
Who feel that Monamuri is not containing them, who feel
that they want to love more people, and who feel
attracted and feel love for others but are not figuring
out the ways to do it, so they should. Secondly,
people who have for the longest time found themselves trapped

(01:07:47):
and feel like a bonzaye, you know, like you're you're
having to control too many desires, too many You're not happy,
you're not content. Such people should probably give it a shot.
There are also people who have a very questioning mind.
They question the basis and the foundations of rules, conventions, traditions.

(01:08:12):
For them, it might be an interesting way to be
for those who want to go on adventures and journeys with.

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
Relationships for them.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
So there are different you know, your point of entry
could be discontent, curiosity, a sense of adventure, a sense
of breaking rules.

Speaker 4 (01:08:35):
You could come from any any point. Your entry point
could be anything.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
My only thing is just know a little more about
it before you venture in, because chances of you getting
hot or you hurting other people.

Speaker 4 (01:08:53):
It's a it's.

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
A journey like any other, and you have to learn
the terrain a little bit.

Speaker 4 (01:09:01):
Otherwise you don't know, hurt yourself or hurt other people.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
So yeah, yeah, finally, you know, they like why polyamory?
And you know you've mentioned so many Bollywood songs throughout
your book which introduced.

Speaker 4 (01:09:15):
You because I grew up on Bollywood songs.

Speaker 3 (01:09:18):
Yeah yeah, yeah, so you know one is you mentioned?

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
No yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a beautiful thing yeaheah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
So so you know, like why polyamory for you? Like
if you would, so.

Speaker 4 (01:09:33):
For different people, different reasons. I think I'll begin with
why for me?

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
For me because it's the same reason that you or
anybody else.

Speaker 4 (01:09:45):
Falls in love.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
Because I see beauty, compassion, courage, honesty in people, I
feel attracted to that, and then I fall in love
with them and their ways. The only difference between me
and a monamorous person is a monamorous person probably says

(01:10:07):
that one is my quota, and I don't have a quota,
so I don't say one is enough. I allow myself
to fall in love as much as I want to,
but the reasons are the same.

Speaker 4 (01:10:21):
It's because I find people.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
Attractive because of their courage, compassion, kindness, care, beauty, all
of that. It also helps me feel it makes my
life more honest and truthful to myself and to others.
And that's another reason why I feel a lot of
people in the Polymari community have chosen the same Many

(01:10:45):
of them have come through Monamari and landed here. The
third reason is I feel it I have many people
in me.

Speaker 4 (01:10:56):
There are different ananatis that live here.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
And polymer It gives me the option to have all
those These manifest themselves sometimes with different people, and one
is sometimes surprised at the other.

Speaker 4 (01:11:13):
Uh and it's lovely to see how.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
These different people manifest themselves when they are in relationship
with one particular person, and I think having multiple relationships helps.

Speaker 4 (01:11:28):
Me, you know, do that for the reason I can.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
Shape a relationship, mold it according to the desires of
the people involved, and I don't have to use a
mold that is there already fixed, you.

Speaker 4 (01:11:42):
Know, King.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
But yeah, I think all of these reasons, and of
course my great great great dislike for one.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
Yeah, that's a great note to end on. Thank you
so much for sharing your journey with us.

Speaker 4 (01:12:00):
Thank you, thank you so much, Andrada for doing this.
It's wonderful.