May 7, 2025 • 44 mins
From being in jail at barely 20-years-old, facing prison time on a drug charge and feeling, “My whole life, one stupid mess after another,” international leadership coach Dr Marcia Reynolds has come a long way. Nearly 50 years later, she counts among the top voices in coaching.
Here, she talks about the power of reflective inquiry and how it forces one to look deep within and take hard life decisions. She also debunks the “crazy belief” that the coach must ask only open-ended, not closed questions. A coach or thinking partner, she says, gives people the courage to step into the decision they know they want to take. She also warns one against the “shoulds”—”Ask yourself, who made that rule?”
Based in the US, Dr. Marcia Reynolds, Master Certified Coach and president of Covisioning LLC, is a pioneer in the coaching profession and was the 5th global president of the International Coaching Federation and inducted into their Circle of Distinction for her many years of service to the global coaching community. She is recognised by Global Gurus as one of the top five coaches in the world.
She has provided coaching and training in 47 countries, to thousands of coaches and leaders online, is on faculty for coaching schools in the US, Asia, and Eastern Europe. She holds a doctorate in organisational psychology, besides two master’s degrees in learning psychology and communications.
Listen in!
Dr. Marcia Reynolds’ books include:
01:40 Starting 50 years ago, from jail to leadership coaching
09:00 Walked through a dark tunnel to learn lessons
10:20 From a corporate career to becoming a founding member of the ICF
15:00 What is coaching? Becoming a thinking partner for clients
20:42 Reflective statements combined with enquiry
26:03 An outcome is not an action; finding purpose for a client
29:43 Reflective enquiry taps into the middle brain and long-term memories
31:50 Open-ended vs closed questions, forming connections
37:42 Common threads in client issues
41:25 Giving space to feel the emotion
Follow Anuradha on LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
Email: swishingmindsets@gmail.com
Disclaimer: Views and opinions expressed are personal. Listener discretion is advised.
Here, she talks about the power of reflective inquiry and how it forces one to look deep within and take hard life decisions. She also debunks the “crazy belief” that the coach must ask only open-ended, not closed questions. A coach or thinking partner, she says, gives people the courage to step into the decision they know they want to take. She also warns one against the “shoulds”—”Ask yourself, who made that rule?”
Based in the US, Dr. Marcia Reynolds, Master Certified Coach and president of Covisioning LLC, is a pioneer in the coaching profession and was the 5th global president of the International Coaching Federation and inducted into their Circle of Distinction for her many years of service to the global coaching community. She is recognised by Global Gurus as one of the top five coaches in the world.
She has provided coaching and training in 47 countries, to thousands of coaches and leaders online, is on faculty for coaching schools in the US, Asia, and Eastern Europe. She holds a doctorate in organisational psychology, besides two master’s degrees in learning psychology and communications.
Listen in!
Dr. Marcia Reynolds’ books include:
- Coach the Person, Not the Problem: A Guide to Using Reflective Inquiry
- Outsmart Your Brain: How to Master Your Mind When Emotions Take the Wheel
- Unexpected Angels: A Six Month Journey Into Light
- Wander Woman: How High-Achieving Women Find Contentment and Direction
- Breakthrough Coaching: Creating Lightbulb Moments in Your Coaching Conversations
- The Discomfort Zone: How Leaders Turn Difficult Conversations Into Breakthroughs
01:40 Starting 50 years ago, from jail to leadership coaching
09:00 Walked through a dark tunnel to learn lessons
10:20 From a corporate career to becoming a founding member of the ICF
15:00 What is coaching? Becoming a thinking partner for clients
20:42 Reflective statements combined with enquiry
26:03 An outcome is not an action; finding purpose for a client
29:43 Reflective enquiry taps into the middle brain and long-term memories
31:50 Open-ended vs closed questions, forming connections
37:42 Common threads in client issues
41:25 Giving space to feel the emotion
Follow Anuradha on LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
Email: swishingmindsets@gmail.com
Disclaimer: Views and opinions expressed are personal. Listener discretion is advised.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, this san Radha. Welcome to fishing Mindsets Today, I'm
speaking to doctor Marcia Raylan's Master, certified coach and President
of co Visioning ERLSE. She has provided coaching and training
in forty seven countries to thousands of coaches and leaders,
and she's on the faculty for coaching schools in the US,
Asia and Eastern Europe. Known among the top five coaches worldwide,
(00:23):
she holds a doctorate in organizational psychology and two master's
degrees in learning, psychology and communications. Marcia is a pioneer
in the coaching profession and was the fifth Global President
of the International Coaching Federation. There's a long, long list,
but the last you want to mention is She's also
the author of three books, Coach the Person, Not the Problem,
(00:46):
A guide to using reflective inquiry, Outsmart your Brain, How
to Master your Mind When Emotions Take the Wheel, and
my favorite, her first book, I'm Assuming Unexpected Angels, a
six month journey into Light. I'm Marcia again. Thank you
so much for readily agreeing to do this.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, you're welcome. It's my pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah. So I want to start on the first book
because I told you I read that book, you know,
and I couldn't keep it down Unexpected Angels. So in
my head it's I've still got that thrill of the
twenty year old who made it, you know. You know,
you were arrested for selling drugs or doing drugs, and
you've written so candidly, so frankly about it. You know,
it was heartbreaking, and as I was reading it, I
(01:29):
just imagined this successful woman right all the list of
the actually i've read out just now, you know, so
I felt so proud, you know, of that young girl. Yeah,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well. Being that that was fifty years ago, I have
fifty years of a journey since then to use everything
I learned, And I think that's that's the key, that
if we can look at all of our experiences and
say so instead of saying I wish I hadn't done that,
(02:00):
I was saying, what is it that I learned from
that that I can share with others. So I actually
wrote that while I was still working in companies. So
all the other books, and there's five of them, there's
some you didn't even mention, and that I have written
since then, have been since I've been running my own
(02:22):
business and trying to make a difference in the world
in leadership and coaching. So but that one I felt
like I just had to put that story out in
the world.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, I'll mention all the other books of the description.
I'd be sure to do that. So tell me, you know,
like I told you, like when we just started speaking,
that you know, in my head, you're still that twenty
year old girl that I'm speaking to. You know, it's
like time travel, right, But for you, do you feel
that girl is still there somewhere? Like I'll give you
(02:56):
an example of what I mean. It's you know, you'll
always jumped to help, and you got into a lot
of trouble because of it, and it wasn't really it
was jail, not prison. You're waiting for sentencing, you're waiting
for the trial to happen, and every time somebody else
was in trouble, you jumped up and got into trouble instead. Right,
So I realize there that you like to help. And
(03:19):
one of your friends, VICKI over there, also said that
I don't know why, but you have this thing in you,
you know, so somebody you feel that girl is there
in you, you know, pushing you, propping you towards your
own direction.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
You know, I think that we're all in integration of
everything we've experienced in life. So to separate it out,
I can't do that. I wouldn't know to talk to her.
She you know, is she a part of me. She's
a part of my lived experience, you know. And so
what I went through then, and I wouldn't necessarily say
(03:55):
it's to help people, it's to advocate, is to advocate
that we should all step into our best selves. And
and also when I stood up for them, it was
to change the system that was so so suppressing of
(04:18):
our gifts that I wanted to, you know, make a
bigger difference than just you know, stepping in and helping
one on one. And I say that because it's really significant.
When I coach people, I don't define it as helping
because in that sense it's it's like like they're weaker
(04:39):
than me, and that's just not true, you know. So
I'm partnering you know, that we can walk on this
path together and and and achieve good results. So, you know,
I believe my belief is that all of the experiences
we have in life, if we don't if we look
(05:01):
at what is it that I learned from that, then
it becomes important, even if it was in jail, that
it was an important experience for me to learn about
people I would never have met before in my life.
You know, my life was so different from theirs. These
(05:23):
these women that had nothing, and some of them were, uh,
that was the safest place for them to be, because
it was dangerous for them to be at home and
out on the streets. And and that I lived with
them and can understand their experience was important for me
(05:43):
to be able to at this point in my life
to understand everyone I deal with and not to judge them,
and and too to know that some people have life
experiences that maybe so difficult that they cannot overcome them.
(06:06):
You know. We always say, oh, everybody can stand up
and take care of themselves. Not necessarily true, you know,
when society holds them back. And so when I said
I'm an advocate, I wanted I'd love to change those
systems in the way that I can. You know, was
the energy I have. And now I do it by
(06:27):
working with leaders, you know, so they can change the
systems and honor the human inside.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, I'll get off the subject of this book
very I mean to this question. But like I said,
I'm a fan of that girl. So you know, Bicky
tells you I was gonna say, tells her that you know,
she's tells you to stand up, and she says, you
know you're not a loser, Say that you're smart, say
that you're strong, and she says that you don't. And
(06:55):
for some reason known only to God, you care about people. Right,
that's what. And I was disappointed to read later that
you didn't come in contact with them later on. Right,
I'd love to know what happened.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Rankly, the day I left, I said to her, I'll
never see you again. I mean, that was like really painful.
And she said, nobody here, nobody here wants to ever
see you again. We want you to go out in
the world and make a difference and in a way,
again because of my privilege, that they couldn't, you know,
(07:28):
make a difference for us all. And frankly, I did
run into someone who had gotten out, and she said,
Vicky got out and went to California or something, you know,
and to be a prostitute. I don't know, something not great.
But she was gone out of my life and I
never felt like you know, I did try to go
(07:50):
back to the prison and do some work with them
to make a change, and they would not talk to me,
you know, and so I tried, and I have gone
back now in the last ten years. There's actually even
a ted x talk on YouTube, my YouTube channel that
shows me talking to the women in prison and telling
(08:12):
the story, you know, so you might want to like
take a look at that.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Of course, of course I've been stalking you online.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I feel like
if I can just keep sharing the message with many
people in all walks of life, that's what they wanted
me to do.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So yeah, yeah, but just I said it was the
last time, but this is genuinely the last time that
you know, you've written in the book that I didn't
know so stupid my whole life one, stupid myself for another.
You know, you've written it so honestly, like you know,
you're so down and out and then you built yourself up.
So that's fantastic. And like you say, you know, you
can't judge anybody. You couldn't even have judged that girl
(08:53):
at twenty right, nobody expected anything of her, And yeah, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
As again, then I had to work walk through that
dark tunnel to lose to learn those lessons about it.
Think about like all the people that we admire in life,
the great heroes and you know, well written and movies
made about them, they always had a difficult challenge to
overcome in order to rise up and be who they are.
(09:23):
So that was just the challenge I had to overcome
that you know, would keep me moving forward even when
life got difficult in all along my path, because you know,
that wasn't the only difficult time I have faced, as
we all do, of course, you know, and to have
the courage to stand up that our challenges I think
(09:47):
are given to us as the lessons, you know, and
are we willing to to move through the challenge and
learn the lesson? I think that's important for everyone to ask.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, So Marcia, how did you come on coach? You know,
come upon coaching? Because I've seen that you had a
corporate career, you did a lot of things, and then
you stumbled upon coaching. You heard about somebody who was
doing this, and then you joined it and now you're
a binary member of the icf HM.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Well you know when I I knew that, well, I
had to make money for one thing. Once I got
out of you know, graduate school, and so I and
I knew I needed experience. That who would talk to
me if I didn't have any you know, corporate experience
(10:41):
and I had, you know, in a sense, I had
to prove myself. And so I spent sixteen years. But
eleven of those years, again talking about challenges, were with
technical companies where most of the time, you know, I
moved up quickly in leadership because I accomplished things. But
then I myself in a room with all men and
(11:02):
then having to deal with that challenge, you know, like
you know, you're interrupting me to let them know when
they weren't really listening to me, to stand up, you know,
with the power I had been given to make these changes.
So it was still all important learning in those sixteen years.
But my last company, I helped them change the company,
(11:25):
bring in a new culture. We were hugely successful as
a We went from like near bankruptcy to a top
initial public offering in the United States, and we all
made a ton of money. And then they basically said
I'd hit the glass ceiling. They weren't going to promote
me anymore, and I should fix the factory and quit
(11:49):
doing the programs I had done before because they didn't
need them, and I'm like, ugh, you know what, I
have more to do. So I had already decided that
it was time for me to start my own business,
which I knew I would do. My father was an entrepreneur,
my grandparents were you know, entrepreneurs, and so I felt
(12:11):
I was ready. So it was like when I finally
like said, Okay, this chapter is over, I'm going to
open the door to the new chapter. That's when somebody
sent me an article on coaching. So I had already
decided I was leaving. I didn't know that it was
going to be coaching that I focused on. But understand,
(12:32):
all those companies I worked in training departments, So the
jobs I had gotten and I ended up running training
departments were always on helping people to learn and grow.
And my second master's degree was in adult learning and
instructional design, So I was very committed to researching and
(12:54):
discovering what changes people's minds, what really prompts them to
learn and grow, because most of the time, behaviorally, people
don't grow that much. You know, as soon as it
feels awkward, they go back to old behavior, So what
does it take to sustain change? So my interest in
coaching when that article dropped in my lap was like, huh,
(13:17):
maybe this is something I've been looking for that would
helps sustain change. And when I watched a coaching demo,
I said, there's something different here. I need to research it.
I need to learn it and understand what's different when
you coach someone from when you just tell them what
to do, whether it's a leader or a parent or
(13:39):
a friend. You know, just telling people what to do
often doesn't work, you know. So I jumped into the
coaching world. You know. Yes, I helped. I was a
founding member, one of the first members of the ICF
and all of that. But even before that, I was
looking at how to design training programs to teach coaching skills,
(14:00):
and emotional intelligence came out. How to integrate that and
bring this out into the world, you know. And so
it was my curiosity about what sustains behavioral change that
made me commit to learning and you know, how coaching works.
And then when I saw how it works, I said,
(14:22):
this is it. This is the best learning technology we
have see. I see coaching as a learning technology. It
is not a therapy. It's not a helping in that sense.
It's it's how we learn, you know, and I continue
my research and as I find out new things, how
do we do this? Well, you know I have to
(14:42):
write books to share it. So yeah, so it was
all a path, a journey, you know, based on helping
people learn and grow. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
So since I have you here, I'm really thrilled because
I'm also certified life coach, not very active, still getting
into it. So what is a life coach and what
isn't a life coach? You know? How do you define it?
Because you know you've also written in your book about
hybrid coaches, right, so they're trying to mentor as well
as coach. So what is a coach really?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Okay, well, I'm going to talk about coach in general,
not just life coaching, because I don't even do life coaching.
All my coaching is leadership executive coaching. But when you
learn coaching skills, it's for all coaching. But the distinction
of coaching is that I am not smarter than you.
I do not know more than you. You know things
(15:37):
that you're that you're not applying or you're afraid to acknowledge.
And I am your thinking partner, you know. And and
most people, unless you're talking to a child with no experiences,
have enough experiences in life to really like put things
together in a way to solve their own problems, you know.
(15:57):
And so if I just help you think, I reflect
to you, you know what you're telling me some of
the key points. And so you know, you said that
that you would really like to have a higher position,
but you don't think it'll ever happen, you know. Now
they may have taken five minutes to say that, but
(16:17):
I'm going to summarize it for them, and they're like, oh, yeah, well,
I don't know. I suppose if I want it bad enough,
it could happen someday. But that's what I need to
look at. So, you know, I might then say, so, okay,
so what you're looking at is that at some point
you want to be able to be a higher level leader,
(16:40):
either where you're at or somewhere else. Is that what
you want to look at? So all I'm doing is
reflecting the key points and asking the questions, you know,
that help them think through in a way they cannot
do for themselves. Because the brain blocks us from analyzing
our our thinking if there's any emotions attached, because it
(17:01):
doesn't want us to step into uncertainty and not know.
We need someone outside of us to help us think.
And that's the magic and power of coaching, and that's
the best thing you can do. You cannot tell people
how to run their life and have it always work,
you know, so especially in life coaching, that you you know,
(17:23):
you are not their advisor or mentor, because you're going
to tell them something only based on your own experiences,
and your experiences are not the same as theirs. And
I don't care if you've lived next door to them
all your life and have the same you know, school
and religion or whatever. They have lived a different life
than you. And so it's dangerous to get into thinking, oh,
(17:46):
I know what's best for this person, because you don't
know they know, but they're afraid to acknowledge it. You know,
when people come to you and say I have a
decision to make, ninety five percent of the time, it's
not that they have that they need to make the decision.
It's that they have to have the courage to step
(18:07):
into the decision they already know they want to make,
and so we help them uncover that reveal that that
that's what they need and to then move forward on
the path that they really want for themselves. And that's
so powerful, much more powerful than mentoring and telling. And
(18:28):
sometimes I will get you know, like during the pandemic,
I had a number of leaders that you know that
they were first level leaders and were promoted like two
three steps up and really had never dealt with a
leadership team. And you know, there were things they did
not know. And so we agreed half hour I would
(18:51):
coach you, and then half hour if there's things that
you needed, I would mentor you. And always after you know,
four to six weeks, you know, a month or so,
they would say, okay, I'm done with mentoring, now just
coach me. Because they saw found that and they got
(19:11):
what they needed. They got the information that they needed,
but now they had to implement it and they needed
coaching on that. So a lot of coaches question what
value am I if I don't give advice? And you
know what, you're far more valuable if you stay and
trust the coaching process then to jump in and give
(19:35):
them your wisdom and advice that may not work.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, I understand when I have my coaching hat. I'm
you know, trying actively not to give advice. But when
I'm just talking as a friend or family, I just
you don't read out a set of instructions, do this, this, this, this,
I know, but.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Do they listen to you?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
No, nobody listens.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
You know what. I know a woman who wrote a
wonderful book called Parent as Coach, you know so, and
she's been teaching parents how to use a coaching approach
to engage instead of push people away.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That maybe you can still tell them, well, this is
what I need you to do, bottom line, this is
what has to happen, but you engage them with coaching.
And she has gotten so many testimonials from people all
over the world parents saying you're right, A coaching approach
is better.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yeah, so yeah, yeah, you know, I'm just reading on
you'd said that. You know, reflective statements one second. They
are statements that prompt us to look inside our brains, right,
and they trigger reflections. Reflective statements include recapping, labeling, using metaphors,
identifying key or conflicting points, recognizing emotional shifts. In combines
(21:01):
questions with reflective statements, right, I'm just reading that out
and you know what you said. It sounds so obvious,
it sounds so logical, but I know that this is
unique to coaching, and it's kind of I mean, I
don't know if that's the right word, but it's like
caused an upheaval, right reflective inquiry because people are like, no,
but you know, you're not supposed to paraphrase, because paraphrase
means you're putting thoughts in a person's mind, right, So
(21:23):
could you explain what is reflective? And I've read this
on a Facebook group with a lot of coaches there,
and a lot of people jumped to defend you, and
they said, no, no, no, this is what Marsha means. You know.
It's a very powerful to have me. Yeah, a several
of them, you know. So, Kim, could you explain it?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah? Yeah, you know, really the paraphrase is still part
of a summary, and it's never ever, ever, ever, ever
based on something they did not give me, you know.
And so if they're telling me, if they say over
and over and over, like there is one client coaching
and he was trying to understand why he he wasn't
(22:05):
completing He had a pattern he'd go in. He was
well known that he'd go into a company, he'd make
big changes, you know, because they were struggling, and then
he would leave, you know. I mean that was his contract,
and you'd go on to another company, another company, and
he had been offered a very good position in another country,
(22:25):
and he would already had been jumping countries. And he said,
I don't know why I can't take it. It would
be a good school for my kids. It's a good job.
And this time I'm not comfortable, you know. And I'm like, so,
what's different about this time? And he said, well, you know,
actually the leader who brought me in, he's given me
(22:47):
even a leadership position, and I'd never had that before.
He really trusted me, and I'm learning how to be
a leader, and you know, and he, you know, he
brings me in and we have long conversations, you know,
about where he wants to take the company and what
he thinks I can do. And I said, okay, so
this leader is giving you far more opportunities than you
(23:10):
ever had before. It seems different of the work you're
doing being a leader. And he says, yeah, you know,
And I said, so it sounds to me that you've
really engaged with this CEO in a way that you
don't want to let him down, that maybe there's some loyalty.
And he says, that's it, you know, he says, I've
(23:33):
never ever, ever, ever, ever been loyal before, you know,
and now I feel a sense of loyalty to him
from what he's giving me. So I gave him the word,
but it was only based on what he gave me.
I would never interpret outside of the story that they give,
so it's still a reflection. I summarize what I heard
(23:56):
from him that you know, this was different, This leader
was really different, and he, you know, was like enjoying
you know, this, this relationship, not just the job, and
that the leader trusted him, you know. And those are
the words he gave me. I gave them back. So
it seems like that because of this difference in the
(24:18):
relationship you have with him, you know, it seems like
you're loyal. I could have just said, so that's what's
making it difficult for you to leave because of what
he's done for you, same thing, you know. So it's
it's not what I make up if I you know,
like one thing I hear coaches often do, which is
so wrong that somebody may be saying, you know, I'm
(24:43):
overwhelmed and I have so much to do, and you know,
I just, you know, have to figure out how to
manage this better. And I've heard so many coaches say,
so it seems like you need to have some life balance.
The person ever said that. Ever, the person just said,
you know, I'm a little overwhelmed and I have to
sort through this. They didn't say I need to balance it.
(25:04):
And not everybody needs life balance. I don't have balance.
I love my work. I give a lot to my work.
You know, it's not in balance. I don't even know
what that is. You know, So don't think just because
you might need that or you know you've read that's
an important thing that the person in front of you
(25:25):
wants something that they have not said, you know, And
so it's it's really important that you don't come from
a formula that you don't come from what everybody needs,
you know, and truly listen to the person and reflect
back what you hear from them, and try to understand,
you know, well, what has created this challenge for you. You know,
(25:49):
what may be difficult for you that's keeping you from
sorting through this and hand and not feeling so overwhelmed.
You know, we just have to help them think through it.
You know. I once even had a client who came
to me, a vice president of a large retail chain
(26:09):
in the US, and she said, and I had been
coaching her for some time, and so I knew her
history and everything. And she says, I don't know what's
gotten into me. You know, it's just like I usually
handling things so well, and I'm usually organized, but right
now I can't prioritize. I need you to help me prioritize,
(26:32):
you know. And I and I said, you, so, what
would prioritize is then give you that you think you're missing.
And she says, I just got to get things in order.
I get got to get back and I know an
outcome is not an action. And I said to her,
you know, I just need to understand what's making this
(26:52):
a challenge right now. You know. I know you just
said you're always organized. I also know that you came
from one of the largest law firms in the country
and you were very successful, so it seems like you
knew then even had organized. And I know you went
(27:12):
to one of the top law schools in the country
in order to get through that law school, you must
have known. So what is it that you've done in
the past that you feel, you know, is stopping you
from doing it now? And she said, oh, oh, I
always had a purpose in a vision. I knew in
(27:34):
law school what I wanted to do. I knew when
I was working in the firm who I wanted to
be and what I wanted to create. And I came
in here with a vision of what I needed to
learn about retail because my husband and I wanted to
start a restaurant. And I'm like, oh, she says, I've forgotten.
And I said, okay, So will that purpose help you
(27:58):
in this over whelming challenge you're facing. She goes, I
don't know. I need to go talk to my husband
to see if he still wants to do it. And
I said okay. So she says, so, you know, can
we reschedule. Let me go talk to him, you know.
And then when she came back, she said, you were right.
It's not about prioritizing. It was about reviving my vision.
(28:20):
I don't need you to tell me how to prioritize.
I know how to do that. I've been doing it all,
you know, all my life. I just needed to revive
my vision.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yeah, to paraphrats, she forgot her purpose, basically.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Got her Yeah, but I had to bring that forward.
What's different now? And then all those other times in
the past when you did this, and she's the one
that came up with it. I didn't say it. She
came up with it, and I said, okay, took. Yeah,
you use reflection in questions. Let them discover, because you're
(28:58):
using a different part of the that's going to give them.
Once they discover this, it will give them the confidence
to move forward. They can clearly see it. When you
tell them what to do, they can't clearly see it.
They're just listening to you, you know. And it's just facts.
It's just information. It's not creative insight that really changes
our life. So reflective inquiry and sometimes I just use reflections.
(29:23):
I don't even ask a question, and I find it
to be even more powerful and valuable, you know. And
the smarter you are, the bigger the rationalizations and the fog,
and you know that we create and we really need
someone outside of us just to help us think.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, you've mentioned the middle brain. You say that that's
a long term memory store, and that gets activated when
you use reflective inquiry, so you tap into that and uh.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Oh, it's long term memory and emotions are in the
middle brain. Yeah so yeah, So what's happening is that
you can, like the neuroplasticity is in the middle brain.
It's not in the cognitive brain. The cognitive brain is
just a container where we store facts and think and
(30:15):
analyze with what we already know. When you work at
the middle brain and they start to think differently, you
start to like reconnect, you know, your neurons and actually
maybe create some new pathways, you know, And that's when
(30:36):
and you do this instantly, and that's when the creative
insight emerges, and that creative insight won't go away. You
won't forget it. In your cognitive brain. If I tell
you what to do. All day long, you're reading things,
you're listening things, you're listening to people, and when you
go to sleep, your brain throws out eighty at least
eighty percent of what you learned in the day because
(30:58):
it has to cleanse, it has to per so you
can take in more tomorrow. So whatever I tell you
what to do, there's only twenty percent chance you're going
to remember and when you try to remember, you're not
going to remember it exactly how you told me, you know,
So it's not very effective learning of just using the
cognitive short term memory. So yes, you want to use
(31:22):
the long term memory and the creative process and to
to get the emotions to shift as well in order
to create sustainable change.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah. You you know also said crazy beliefs that coaches,
you know that we kind of follow. So one is
that you know, we should only have live Yeah, like
we should only ask open ended questions and not closed questions.
So I was reading a book where you've also kind
of explained that, saying that it's especially useful when you
(31:54):
have a rappo and you know your client right that
you're partnering with, So that's when closed questions I open question.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
No, it haven't works well with strangers too. Okay, first
I want to say there's still a lot of schools
that teach coaching is about asking open ended questions. You
will drive people crazy if that's all you do, you know,
and you don't create the connection so close questions. And
I was taught this in my school. That and when
(32:27):
we wrote the Ic of Competencies, we said there should
be more open questions than close questions. We never said
don't ask close questions. That was never there, and it's
not there now. You know that when I'm clarifying, then
I'm getting you to drill down into what it is
(32:47):
you want and what's getting in the way. Close questions
are really useful in in in clarifying. Once we clarify
what you really want what's getting the way, then the
question are fully open. You know. But but when I
say to you, you know, like when I said to
the guy, so you know, uh, so it sounds like
(33:09):
you're struggling because you have this relationship with your boss
and you have some loyalty there and is that what
you is that it for you? That's a close question.
I don't even think I used a question. I just
said that and he's like, a, yeah, loyalty. I just
use the reflection. But to say, you know, when somebody
comes to me with, uh, you know, like there's really
(33:30):
struggling to accomplish something and and they say, you know,
because people are reacting this way and and you know,
and so I'm shutting down, I might say, so it
sounds to me like you're struggling with how you're dealing
with people, but you also have you know, your own
uh confidence in that moment. So what is it you
(33:53):
want to work on how you approach people or your
inner confidence? You know, because you said you shut down?
Which one is most important to work on? Now that's
a close question because I'm offering a distinction. But I
was taught distinctions and somebody said, doesn't that aren't you
directing them? It's like, no, I'm not directing them. That's
(34:13):
what they gave me in five ten minutes of them
blah blah blah blah blah. I'm just narrowing in on
what is it you really want here? You know? And
I'll tell you something. When I offer an external and
an internal, they almost always take the internal. I need
to work on myself. Okay, So is that what you
want to work on in our time together? And that's
(34:35):
the agreement. I don't ask upfront what do you want
out of our session? They don't know. They're just going
to tell you the problem. But when we finally nail
down what they want to work on, I'll stan I'll say,
is that how you want to spend your time in
this session? And that's the agreement. So I coach to
the coaching agreement. I don't think they're going to know
(34:57):
it up front, and and so I'm narrowing it down.
I'm clarifying what do you mean by that when you
said nobody, uh, you know, nobody respects you? What is
respect in that moment? What is it you think you're
not getting? I want to understand their meaning of the
keywords they use, you know, and and to really listen
(35:19):
in to what is it they want that they don't have? Now?
I need to reflect and ask is that right? Is
this what you want to work on? These are close questions.
They're very important that we clarify and drill down to
what they want and what's getting in the way before
we can resolve what's keeping them from reaching their goal.
(35:42):
And at the end we use close questions. You know,
so you know, so what action are you willing to
take right now? When are you going to do that? So? So,
what I hear you saying is that you believe your
first step could only be to think about it? Is
is what do just thinking about it? You know? Is
(36:02):
that right that you have to go think about this more?
That's a close question. I might ask that, Okay, so
what does thinking about it look like for you? You know,
so I may mix some close questions in at the
end just to make sure there's a commitment. You know,
are you willing to do this today? That's a close question,
you know. So it's you know, it's more of a
(36:26):
cognitive process upfront of drilling down and then we open
it up with open questions, and then we close it
back down to make sure there's progress. What action will
you take? You know, buy when? And that's an important
question when you're going to do that. If it doesn't
turn out like you want, what will you do next?
(36:47):
You know, those are a little bit more formulaic at
the end because we need to really get the commitment
and close up the session. So there's you know, uh,
the the drilling down, the opening up, and then closing
that's really important. You know that we demonstrate in every session.
(37:10):
And it could take the session, could be you could
do that in ten minutes, it may take thirty minutes,
but my coaching does not take an hour. You know.
If you drill down well enough, they're going to have
breakthroughs just in the beginning. That's going to shorten the
process to the end.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yeah, thank you. Mansha. I feel like I'm in a
masterclass right now. So thank you, Pet, And I know
you don't have much time, so just ask one final question.
So you know you've been, like you know, I mentioned
in the beginning, you've been coaching people across US, Asia, Europe, everywhere.
So tell me what is common? Like you said, you know,
it's we throughout these terms like work life, balanced, sense
(37:52):
of purpose, things like that. So what do you see
Is there anything or any or five things or ten
things or twenty things. Do you feel people grappling with
struggling with? What do you see across you know?
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah, well, you know the there's often the you know,
what's an X for me? And and do they have
the courage to do what's next? So, you know, you
work in a job and then it gets to a
point where there's no more challenge. And this happens to
women a lot. So my doctoral dissertation was on smart,
(38:28):
strong women in the workplace. So I think one of
the books that's often not mentioned in coaching is my
book Wander Woman W A N D E R. And
that's because women tend to discover that there's no more
challenge here. I need to move on because the challenges
have been limited, so they wander more than men. And
(38:50):
that book still women from all over the world email
me and said, I found your wander woman book. That
was so important to me, you know because most what's
the time we think women need to speak up and
you know, don't have enough courage. But what I found
with the women is that they're very confident about their
knowledge and their skills, but maybe the lack of confidence inside.
(39:14):
That's two different things. So having the courage to make
the change and to overcome the shoulds, what society tells me,
what my family tells me, I should be doing when
I know what it is I want, you know. So
a lot of people let the shoulds get in the
way of their dreams. But men and women, anytime you
(39:35):
hear the words should, ask about it. Who's saying should?
Is that your should? Who made that role? You know?
To try to understand the should is so important. That's
a big thing, you know, because people do want to
keep learning and growing, but they reach a point where
they're scared to do it, you know, and they're scared
to leave what they've had. I mean, that's a little
(39:58):
bit of security. Then there's often with leaders that I
have to have a difficult conversation and I'm afraid to
have it. And what I often find is it's not
so much what to do, but they're scared that they're
going to be judged as being a bad leader, you know.
(40:18):
So you know that seems to bubble up all the
time in coaching. So the you know, the I'm having
a difficult time with the employees and my relationship and
you know, I need to resolve it, But it's more
about the fear of resolving it than they need to
know exactly what to do. Usually they know, they're just
(40:38):
afraid to do it. So I think those are you know,
the main things, and all of us are overloaded, and
so we're losing sight of why we're here today, why
it's important the work you do, and that comes back
to purpose.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yeah you book the outbring right.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Sorry, smart your brain.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
I'll smart your brain. I'll smart your brain. Yeah. Sorry.
So that has some exercises as well. Lever say you
said that in your emotion because these days we've lost
touch of emotions. We I mean I feel that with
myself as well, you know, because it's so mechanically you're
going from one thing to the next. You really don't
know what you're feeling. Like the leader that you coached,
you told him that, you know, maybe it's loyalty. You
(41:22):
discover that, right, Yeah, So any practical time.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, but you know what we're taught, and I know
you know this that were brought up and I was
too that, you know, the most important thing is that
you do well in school, you know. And for me
it was not just academics, but sports. You know, that
was a big thing in my with my father because
I think he wanted a boy and he got me,
(41:47):
so I was gonna be it anyway. And I was
good when I was younger in sports. But we had
to be the best and or do the best, do
the best, not be There wasn't any focus on who
I am and my emotions. And we were told don't cry,
that makes you look weak, which you know, it's just
(42:09):
an expression of emotion. Don't show your emotions men and women.
And so what happens is we disconnect and we don't
even know how to define what we're feeling, you know.
And so a little bit of emotional intelligence is good
for everyone to learn, so to reconnect and not to
judge there's no bad feeling. It's just an expression of
(42:30):
my humanity. You know. I was taught in my last
company because I'm a crier, just to walk into the
room with the leaders and with your box of Kleenex
and set it down and say, sometimes when things get
out of hand, I might cry, don't you worry about
it all? Handle it? You know, which gave me strength
(42:51):
even if I cried. Who cares? You know? So when
we coach, we should never jump in and try to
take care of someone when they're feeling bad. Just let
them feel that way. They will go into the emotion
and they'll start to come out, and then we can say,
would you be willing to share what just came up
for you? Don't tell them they shouldn't feel that way.
(43:14):
So we have to deal with our own. When they cry,
we may react. So I notice I tighten up when
they have a reaction, release it and just be present
with them. So emotional intelligence is important for all coaches
to master. And now when i CEF changed the competencies
and added coaching mindset, that was a marker that you
(43:36):
regulate your emotions, that you manage, that you know how
to choose how you want to feel at any moment,
whether you're coaching or you're at home with your family,
how do I want to feel at this moment? So
that's why I wrote out Smart Your Brain and I
what's out now is my second edition, because you know,
(43:56):
I really wanted to share everything I've been learning.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
So yeah, yeah, thank you so much, Mansche. It's so valuable.
I won't keep you longer and I hope we can
do this again. Sometimes there's so much to talk about.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, great, well, thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
My pleasure,
Hi, this san Radha. Welcome to fishing Mindsets Today, I'm
speaking to doctor Marcia Raylan's Master, certified coach and President
of co Visioning ERLSE. She has provided coaching and training
in forty seven countries to thousands of coaches and leaders,
and she's on the faculty for coaching schools in the US,
Asia and Eastern Europe. Known among the top five coaches worldwide,
(00:23):
she holds a doctorate in organizational psychology and two master's
degrees in learning, psychology and communications. Marcia is a pioneer
in the coaching profession and was the fifth Global President
of the International Coaching Federation. There's a long, long list,
but the last you want to mention is She's also
the author of three books, Coach the Person, Not the Problem,
(00:46):
A guide to using reflective inquiry, Outsmart your Brain, How
to Master your Mind When Emotions Take the Wheel, and
my favorite, her first book, I'm Assuming Unexpected Angels, a
six month journey into Light. I'm Marcia again. Thank you
so much for readily agreeing to do this.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, you're welcome. It's my pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah. So I want to start on the first book
because I told you I read that book, you know,
and I couldn't keep it down Unexpected Angels. So in
my head it's I've still got that thrill of the
twenty year old who made it, you know. You know,
you were arrested for selling drugs or doing drugs, and
you've written so candidly, so frankly about it. You know,
it was heartbreaking, and as I was reading it, I
(01:29):
just imagined this successful woman right all the list of
the actually i've read out just now, you know, so
I felt so proud, you know, of that young girl. Yeah,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well. Being that that was fifty years ago, I have
fifty years of a journey since then to use everything
I learned, And I think that's that's the key, that
if we can look at all of our experiences and
say so instead of saying I wish I hadn't done that,
(02:00):
I was saying, what is it that I learned from
that that I can share with others. So I actually
wrote that while I was still working in companies. So
all the other books, and there's five of them, there's
some you didn't even mention, and that I have written
since then, have been since I've been running my own
(02:22):
business and trying to make a difference in the world
in leadership and coaching. So but that one I felt
like I just had to put that story out in
the world.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, I'll mention all the other books of the description.
I'd be sure to do that. So tell me, you know,
like I told you, like when we just started speaking,
that you know, in my head, you're still that twenty
year old girl that I'm speaking to. You know, it's
like time travel, right, But for you, do you feel
that girl is still there somewhere? Like I'll give you
(02:56):
an example of what I mean. It's you know, you'll
always jumped to help, and you got into a lot
of trouble because of it, and it wasn't really it
was jail, not prison. You're waiting for sentencing, you're waiting
for the trial to happen, and every time somebody else
was in trouble, you jumped up and got into trouble instead. Right,
So I realize there that you like to help. And
(03:19):
one of your friends, VICKI over there, also said that
I don't know why, but you have this thing in you,
you know, so somebody you feel that girl is there
in you, you know, pushing you, propping you towards your
own direction.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
You know, I think that we're all in integration of
everything we've experienced in life. So to separate it out,
I can't do that. I wouldn't know to talk to her.
She you know, is she a part of me. She's
a part of my lived experience, you know. And so
what I went through then, and I wouldn't necessarily say
(03:55):
it's to help people, it's to advocate, is to advocate
that we should all step into our best selves. And
and also when I stood up for them, it was
to change the system that was so so suppressing of
(04:18):
our gifts that I wanted to, you know, make a
bigger difference than just you know, stepping in and helping
one on one. And I say that because it's really significant.
When I coach people, I don't define it as helping
because in that sense it's it's like like they're weaker
(04:39):
than me, and that's just not true, you know. So
I'm partnering you know, that we can walk on this
path together and and and achieve good results. So, you know,
I believe my belief is that all of the experiences
we have in life, if we don't if we look
(05:01):
at what is it that I learned from that, then
it becomes important, even if it was in jail, that
it was an important experience for me to learn about
people I would never have met before in my life.
You know, my life was so different from theirs. These
(05:23):
these women that had nothing, and some of them were, uh,
that was the safest place for them to be, because
it was dangerous for them to be at home and
out on the streets. And and that I lived with
them and can understand their experience was important for me
(05:43):
to be able to at this point in my life
to understand everyone I deal with and not to judge them,
and and too to know that some people have life
experiences that maybe so difficult that they cannot overcome them.
(06:06):
You know. We always say, oh, everybody can stand up
and take care of themselves. Not necessarily true, you know,
when society holds them back. And so when I said
I'm an advocate, I wanted I'd love to change those
systems in the way that I can. You know, was
the energy I have. And now I do it by
(06:27):
working with leaders, you know, so they can change the
systems and honor the human inside.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, I'll get off the subject of this book
very I mean to this question. But like I said,
I'm a fan of that girl. So you know, Bicky
tells you I was gonna say, tells her that you know,
she's tells you to stand up, and she says, you
know you're not a loser, Say that you're smart, say
that you're strong, and she says that you don't. And
(06:55):
for some reason known only to God, you care about people. Right,
that's what. And I was disappointed to read later that
you didn't come in contact with them later on. Right,
I'd love to know what happened.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Rankly, the day I left, I said to her, I'll
never see you again. I mean, that was like really painful.
And she said, nobody here, nobody here wants to ever
see you again. We want you to go out in
the world and make a difference and in a way,
again because of my privilege, that they couldn't, you know,
(07:28):
make a difference for us all. And frankly, I did
run into someone who had gotten out, and she said,
Vicky got out and went to California or something, you know,
and to be a prostitute. I don't know, something not great.
But she was gone out of my life and I
never felt like you know, I did try to go
(07:50):
back to the prison and do some work with them
to make a change, and they would not talk to me,
you know, and so I tried, and I have gone
back now in the last ten years. There's actually even
a ted x talk on YouTube, my YouTube channel that
shows me talking to the women in prison and telling
(08:12):
the story, you know, so you might want to like
take a look at that.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Of course, of course I've been stalking you online.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I feel like
if I can just keep sharing the message with many
people in all walks of life, that's what they wanted
me to do.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So yeah, yeah, but just I said it was the
last time, but this is genuinely the last time that
you know, you've written in the book that I didn't
know so stupid my whole life one, stupid myself for another.
You know, you've written it so honestly, like you know,
you're so down and out and then you built yourself up.
So that's fantastic. And like you say, you know, you
can't judge anybody. You couldn't even have judged that girl
(08:53):
at twenty right, nobody expected anything of her, And yeah, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
As again, then I had to work walk through that
dark tunnel to lose to learn those lessons about it.
Think about like all the people that we admire in life,
the great heroes and you know, well written and movies
made about them, they always had a difficult challenge to
overcome in order to rise up and be who they are.
(09:23):
So that was just the challenge I had to overcome
that you know, would keep me moving forward even when
life got difficult in all along my path, because you know,
that wasn't the only difficult time I have faced, as
we all do, of course, you know, and to have
the courage to stand up that our challenges I think
(09:47):
are given to us as the lessons, you know, and
are we willing to to move through the challenge and
learn the lesson? I think that's important for everyone to ask.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, So Marcia, how did you come on coach? You know,
come upon coaching? Because I've seen that you had a
corporate career, you did a lot of things, and then
you stumbled upon coaching. You heard about somebody who was
doing this, and then you joined it and now you're
a binary member of the icf HM.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Well you know when I I knew that, well, I
had to make money for one thing. Once I got
out of you know, graduate school, and so I and
I knew I needed experience. That who would talk to
me if I didn't have any you know, corporate experience
(10:41):
and I had, you know, in a sense, I had
to prove myself. And so I spent sixteen years. But
eleven of those years, again talking about challenges, were with
technical companies where most of the time, you know, I
moved up quickly in leadership because I accomplished things. But
then I myself in a room with all men and
(11:02):
then having to deal with that challenge, you know, like
you know, you're interrupting me to let them know when
they weren't really listening to me, to stand up, you know,
with the power I had been given to make these changes.
So it was still all important learning in those sixteen years.
But my last company, I helped them change the company,
(11:25):
bring in a new culture. We were hugely successful as
a We went from like near bankruptcy to a top
initial public offering in the United States, and we all
made a ton of money. And then they basically said
I'd hit the glass ceiling. They weren't going to promote
me anymore, and I should fix the factory and quit
(11:49):
doing the programs I had done before because they didn't
need them, and I'm like, ugh, you know what, I
have more to do. So I had already decided that
it was time for me to start my own business,
which I knew I would do. My father was an entrepreneur,
my grandparents were you know, entrepreneurs, and so I felt
(12:11):
I was ready. So it was like when I finally
like said, Okay, this chapter is over, I'm going to
open the door to the new chapter. That's when somebody
sent me an article on coaching. So I had already
decided I was leaving. I didn't know that it was
going to be coaching that I focused on. But understand,
(12:32):
all those companies I worked in training departments, So the
jobs I had gotten and I ended up running training
departments were always on helping people to learn and grow.
And my second master's degree was in adult learning and
instructional design, So I was very committed to researching and
(12:54):
discovering what changes people's minds, what really prompts them to
learn and grow, because most of the time, behaviorally, people
don't grow that much. You know, as soon as it
feels awkward, they go back to old behavior, So what
does it take to sustain change? So my interest in
coaching when that article dropped in my lap was like, huh,
(13:17):
maybe this is something I've been looking for that would
helps sustain change. And when I watched a coaching demo,
I said, there's something different here. I need to research it.
I need to learn it and understand what's different when
you coach someone from when you just tell them what
to do, whether it's a leader or a parent or
(13:39):
a friend. You know, just telling people what to do
often doesn't work, you know. So I jumped into the
coaching world. You know. Yes, I helped. I was a
founding member, one of the first members of the ICF
and all of that. But even before that, I was
looking at how to design training programs to teach coaching skills,
(14:00):
and emotional intelligence came out. How to integrate that and
bring this out into the world, you know. And so
it was my curiosity about what sustains behavioral change that
made me commit to learning and you know, how coaching works.
And then when I saw how it works, I said,
(14:22):
this is it. This is the best learning technology we
have see. I see coaching as a learning technology. It
is not a therapy. It's not a helping in that sense.
It's it's how we learn, you know, and I continue
my research and as I find out new things, how
do we do this? Well, you know I have to
(14:42):
write books to share it. So yeah, so it was
all a path, a journey, you know, based on helping
people learn and grow. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
So since I have you here, I'm really thrilled because
I'm also certified life coach, not very active, still getting
into it. So what is a life coach and what
isn't a life coach? You know? How do you define it?
Because you know you've also written in your book about
hybrid coaches, right, so they're trying to mentor as well
as coach. So what is a coach really?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Okay, well, I'm going to talk about coach in general,
not just life coaching, because I don't even do life coaching.
All my coaching is leadership executive coaching. But when you
learn coaching skills, it's for all coaching. But the distinction
of coaching is that I am not smarter than you.
I do not know more than you. You know things
(15:37):
that you're that you're not applying or you're afraid to acknowledge.
And I am your thinking partner, you know. And and
most people, unless you're talking to a child with no experiences,
have enough experiences in life to really like put things
together in a way to solve their own problems, you know.
(15:57):
And so if I just help you think, I reflect
to you, you know what you're telling me some of
the key points. And so you know, you said that
that you would really like to have a higher position,
but you don't think it'll ever happen, you know. Now
they may have taken five minutes to say that, but
(16:17):
I'm going to summarize it for them, and they're like, oh, yeah, well,
I don't know. I suppose if I want it bad enough,
it could happen someday. But that's what I need to
look at. So, you know, I might then say, so, okay,
so what you're looking at is that at some point
you want to be able to be a higher level leader,
(16:40):
either where you're at or somewhere else. Is that what
you want to look at? So all I'm doing is
reflecting the key points and asking the questions, you know,
that help them think through in a way they cannot
do for themselves. Because the brain blocks us from analyzing
our our thinking if there's any emotions attached, because it
(17:01):
doesn't want us to step into uncertainty and not know.
We need someone outside of us to help us think.
And that's the magic and power of coaching, and that's
the best thing you can do. You cannot tell people
how to run their life and have it always work,
you know, so especially in life coaching, that you you know,
(17:23):
you are not their advisor or mentor, because you're going
to tell them something only based on your own experiences,
and your experiences are not the same as theirs. And
I don't care if you've lived next door to them
all your life and have the same you know, school
and religion or whatever. They have lived a different life
than you. And so it's dangerous to get into thinking, oh,
(17:46):
I know what's best for this person, because you don't
know they know, but they're afraid to acknowledge it. You know,
when people come to you and say I have a
decision to make, ninety five percent of the time, it's
not that they have that they need to make the decision.
It's that they have to have the courage to step
(18:07):
into the decision they already know they want to make,
and so we help them uncover that reveal that that
that's what they need and to then move forward on
the path that they really want for themselves. And that's
so powerful, much more powerful than mentoring and telling. And
(18:28):
sometimes I will get you know, like during the pandemic,
I had a number of leaders that you know that
they were first level leaders and were promoted like two
three steps up and really had never dealt with a
leadership team. And you know, there were things they did
not know. And so we agreed half hour I would
(18:51):
coach you, and then half hour if there's things that
you needed, I would mentor you. And always after you know,
four to six weeks, you know, a month or so,
they would say, okay, I'm done with mentoring, now just
coach me. Because they saw found that and they got
(19:11):
what they needed. They got the information that they needed,
but now they had to implement it and they needed
coaching on that. So a lot of coaches question what
value am I if I don't give advice? And you
know what, you're far more valuable if you stay and
trust the coaching process then to jump in and give
(19:35):
them your wisdom and advice that may not work.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, I understand when I have my coaching hat. I'm
you know, trying actively not to give advice. But when
I'm just talking as a friend or family, I just
you don't read out a set of instructions, do this, this, this, this,
I know, but.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Do they listen to you?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
No, nobody listens.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
You know what. I know a woman who wrote a
wonderful book called Parent as Coach, you know so, and
she's been teaching parents how to use a coaching approach
to engage instead of push people away.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That maybe you can still tell them, well, this is
what I need you to do, bottom line, this is
what has to happen, but you engage them with coaching.
And she has gotten so many testimonials from people all
over the world parents saying you're right, A coaching approach
is better.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yeah, so yeah, yeah, you know, I'm just reading on
you'd said that. You know, reflective statements one second. They
are statements that prompt us to look inside our brains, right,
and they trigger reflections. Reflective statements include recapping, labeling, using metaphors,
identifying key or conflicting points, recognizing emotional shifts. In combines
(21:01):
questions with reflective statements, right, I'm just reading that out
and you know what you said. It sounds so obvious,
it sounds so logical, but I know that this is
unique to coaching, and it's kind of I mean, I
don't know if that's the right word, but it's like
caused an upheaval, right reflective inquiry because people are like, no,
but you know, you're not supposed to paraphrase, because paraphrase
means you're putting thoughts in a person's mind, right, So
(21:23):
could you explain what is reflective? And I've read this
on a Facebook group with a lot of coaches there,
and a lot of people jumped to defend you, and
they said, no, no, no, this is what Marsha means. You know.
It's a very powerful to have me. Yeah, a several
of them, you know. So, Kim, could you explain it?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah? Yeah, you know, really the paraphrase is still part
of a summary, and it's never ever, ever, ever, ever
based on something they did not give me, you know.
And so if they're telling me, if they say over
and over and over, like there is one client coaching
and he was trying to understand why he he wasn't
(22:05):
completing He had a pattern he'd go in. He was
well known that he'd go into a company, he'd make
big changes, you know, because they were struggling, and then
he would leave, you know. I mean that was his contract,
and you'd go on to another company, another company, and
he had been offered a very good position in another country,
(22:25):
and he would already had been jumping countries. And he said,
I don't know why I can't take it. It would
be a good school for my kids. It's a good job.
And this time I'm not comfortable, you know. And I'm like, so,
what's different about this time? And he said, well, you know,
actually the leader who brought me in, he's given me
(22:47):
even a leadership position, and I'd never had that before.
He really trusted me, and I'm learning how to be
a leader, and you know, and he, you know, he
brings me in and we have long conversations, you know,
about where he wants to take the company and what
he thinks I can do. And I said, okay, so
this leader is giving you far more opportunities than you
(23:10):
ever had before. It seems different of the work you're
doing being a leader. And he says, yeah, you know,
And I said, so it sounds to me that you've
really engaged with this CEO in a way that you
don't want to let him down, that maybe there's some loyalty.
And he says, that's it, you know, he says, I've
(23:33):
never ever, ever, ever, ever been loyal before, you know,
and now I feel a sense of loyalty to him
from what he's giving me. So I gave him the word,
but it was only based on what he gave me.
I would never interpret outside of the story that they give,
so it's still a reflection. I summarize what I heard
(23:56):
from him that you know, this was different, This leader
was really different, and he, you know, was like enjoying
you know, this, this relationship, not just the job, and
that the leader trusted him, you know. And those are
the words he gave me. I gave them back. So
it seems like that because of this difference in the
(24:18):
relationship you have with him, you know, it seems like
you're loyal. I could have just said, so that's what's
making it difficult for you to leave because of what
he's done for you, same thing, you know. So it's
it's not what I make up if I you know,
like one thing I hear coaches often do, which is
so wrong that somebody may be saying, you know, I'm
(24:43):
overwhelmed and I have so much to do, and you know,
I just, you know, have to figure out how to
manage this better. And I've heard so many coaches say,
so it seems like you need to have some life balance.
The person ever said that. Ever, the person just said,
you know, I'm a little overwhelmed and I have to
sort through this. They didn't say I need to balance it.
(25:04):
And not everybody needs life balance. I don't have balance.
I love my work. I give a lot to my work.
You know, it's not in balance. I don't even know
what that is. You know, So don't think just because
you might need that or you know you've read that's
an important thing that the person in front of you
(25:25):
wants something that they have not said, you know, And
so it's it's really important that you don't come from
a formula that you don't come from what everybody needs,
you know, and truly listen to the person and reflect
back what you hear from them, and try to understand,
you know, well, what has created this challenge for you. You know,
(25:49):
what may be difficult for you that's keeping you from
sorting through this and hand and not feeling so overwhelmed.
You know, we just have to help them think through it.
You know. I once even had a client who came
to me, a vice president of a large retail chain
(26:09):
in the US, and she said, and I had been
coaching her for some time, and so I knew her
history and everything. And she says, I don't know what's
gotten into me. You know, it's just like I usually
handling things so well, and I'm usually organized, but right
now I can't prioritize. I need you to help me prioritize,
(26:32):
you know. And I and I said, you, so, what
would prioritize is then give you that you think you're missing.
And she says, I just got to get things in order.
I get got to get back and I know an
outcome is not an action. And I said to her,
you know, I just need to understand what's making this
(26:52):
a challenge right now. You know. I know you just
said you're always organized. I also know that you came
from one of the largest law firms in the country
and you were very successful, so it seems like you
knew then even had organized. And I know you went
(27:12):
to one of the top law schools in the country
in order to get through that law school, you must
have known. So what is it that you've done in
the past that you feel, you know, is stopping you
from doing it now? And she said, oh, oh, I
always had a purpose in a vision. I knew in
(27:34):
law school what I wanted to do. I knew when
I was working in the firm who I wanted to
be and what I wanted to create. And I came
in here with a vision of what I needed to
learn about retail because my husband and I wanted to
start a restaurant. And I'm like, oh, she says, I've forgotten.
And I said, okay, So will that purpose help you
(27:58):
in this over whelming challenge you're facing. She goes, I
don't know. I need to go talk to my husband
to see if he still wants to do it. And
I said okay. So she says, so, you know, can
we reschedule. Let me go talk to him, you know.
And then when she came back, she said, you were right.
It's not about prioritizing. It was about reviving my vision.
(28:20):
I don't need you to tell me how to prioritize.
I know how to do that. I've been doing it all,
you know, all my life. I just needed to revive
my vision.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yeah, to paraphrats, she forgot her purpose, basically.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Got her Yeah, but I had to bring that forward.
What's different now? And then all those other times in
the past when you did this, and she's the one
that came up with it. I didn't say it. She
came up with it, and I said, okay, took. Yeah,
you use reflection in questions. Let them discover, because you're
(28:58):
using a different part of the that's going to give them.
Once they discover this, it will give them the confidence
to move forward. They can clearly see it. When you
tell them what to do, they can't clearly see it.
They're just listening to you, you know. And it's just facts.
It's just information. It's not creative insight that really changes
our life. So reflective inquiry and sometimes I just use reflections.
(29:23):
I don't even ask a question, and I find it
to be even more powerful and valuable, you know. And
the smarter you are, the bigger the rationalizations and the fog,
and you know that we create and we really need
someone outside of us just to help us think.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, you've mentioned the middle brain. You say that that's
a long term memory store, and that gets activated when
you use reflective inquiry, so you tap into that and uh.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Oh, it's long term memory and emotions are in the
middle brain. Yeah so yeah, So what's happening is that
you can, like the neuroplasticity is in the middle brain.
It's not in the cognitive brain. The cognitive brain is
just a container where we store facts and think and
(30:15):
analyze with what we already know. When you work at
the middle brain and they start to think differently, you
start to like reconnect, you know, your neurons and actually
maybe create some new pathways, you know, And that's when
(30:36):
and you do this instantly, and that's when the creative
insight emerges, and that creative insight won't go away. You
won't forget it. In your cognitive brain. If I tell
you what to do. All day long, you're reading things,
you're listening things, you're listening to people, and when you
go to sleep, your brain throws out eighty at least
eighty percent of what you learned in the day because
(30:58):
it has to cleanse, it has to per so you
can take in more tomorrow. So whatever I tell you
what to do, there's only twenty percent chance you're going
to remember and when you try to remember, you're not
going to remember it exactly how you told me, you know,
So it's not very effective learning of just using the
cognitive short term memory. So yes, you want to use
(31:22):
the long term memory and the creative process and to
to get the emotions to shift as well in order
to create sustainable change.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah. You you know also said crazy beliefs that coaches,
you know that we kind of follow. So one is
that you know, we should only have live Yeah, like
we should only ask open ended questions and not closed questions.
So I was reading a book where you've also kind
of explained that, saying that it's especially useful when you
(31:54):
have a rappo and you know your client right that
you're partnering with, So that's when closed questions I open question.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
No, it haven't works well with strangers too. Okay, first
I want to say there's still a lot of schools
that teach coaching is about asking open ended questions. You
will drive people crazy if that's all you do, you know,
and you don't create the connection so close questions. And
I was taught this in my school. That and when
(32:27):
we wrote the Ic of Competencies, we said there should
be more open questions than close questions. We never said
don't ask close questions. That was never there, and it's
not there now. You know that when I'm clarifying, then
I'm getting you to drill down into what it is
(32:47):
you want and what's getting in the way. Close questions
are really useful in in in clarifying. Once we clarify
what you really want what's getting the way, then the
question are fully open. You know. But but when I
say to you, you know, like when I said to
the guy, so you know, uh, so it sounds like
(33:09):
you're struggling because you have this relationship with your boss
and you have some loyalty there and is that what
you is that it for you? That's a close question.
I don't even think I used a question. I just
said that and he's like, a, yeah, loyalty. I just
use the reflection. But to say, you know, when somebody
comes to me with, uh, you know, like there's really
(33:30):
struggling to accomplish something and and they say, you know,
because people are reacting this way and and you know,
and so I'm shutting down, I might say, so it
sounds to me like you're struggling with how you're dealing
with people, but you also have you know, your own
uh confidence in that moment. So what is it you
(33:53):
want to work on how you approach people or your
inner confidence? You know, because you said you shut down?
Which one is most important to work on? Now that's
a close question because I'm offering a distinction. But I
was taught distinctions and somebody said, doesn't that aren't you
directing them? It's like, no, I'm not directing them. That's
(34:13):
what they gave me in five ten minutes of them
blah blah blah blah blah. I'm just narrowing in on
what is it you really want here? You know? And
I'll tell you something. When I offer an external and
an internal, they almost always take the internal. I need
to work on myself. Okay, So is that what you
want to work on in our time together? And that's
(34:35):
the agreement. I don't ask upfront what do you want
out of our session? They don't know. They're just going
to tell you the problem. But when we finally nail
down what they want to work on, I'll stan I'll say,
is that how you want to spend your time in
this session? And that's the agreement. So I coach to
the coaching agreement. I don't think they're going to know
(34:57):
it up front, and and so I'm narrowing it down.
I'm clarifying what do you mean by that when you
said nobody, uh, you know, nobody respects you? What is
respect in that moment? What is it you think you're
not getting? I want to understand their meaning of the
keywords they use, you know, and and to really listen
(35:19):
in to what is it they want that they don't have? Now?
I need to reflect and ask is that right? Is
this what you want to work on? These are close questions.
They're very important that we clarify and drill down to
what they want and what's getting in the way before
we can resolve what's keeping them from reaching their goal.
(35:42):
And at the end we use close questions. You know,
so you know, so what action are you willing to
take right now? When are you going to do that? So? So,
what I hear you saying is that you believe your
first step could only be to think about it? Is
is what do just thinking about it? You know? Is
(36:02):
that right that you have to go think about this more?
That's a close question. I might ask that, Okay, so
what does thinking about it look like for you? You know,
so I may mix some close questions in at the
end just to make sure there's a commitment. You know,
are you willing to do this today? That's a close question,
you know. So it's you know, it's more of a
(36:26):
cognitive process upfront of drilling down and then we open
it up with open questions, and then we close it
back down to make sure there's progress. What action will
you take? You know, buy when? And that's an important
question when you're going to do that. If it doesn't
turn out like you want, what will you do next?
(36:47):
You know, those are a little bit more formulaic at
the end because we need to really get the commitment
and close up the session. So there's you know, uh,
the the drilling down, the opening up, and then closing
that's really important. You know that we demonstrate in every session.
(37:10):
And it could take the session, could be you could
do that in ten minutes, it may take thirty minutes,
but my coaching does not take an hour. You know.
If you drill down well enough, they're going to have
breakthroughs just in the beginning. That's going to shorten the
process to the end.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yeah, thank you. Mansha. I feel like I'm in a
masterclass right now. So thank you, Pet, And I know
you don't have much time, so just ask one final question.
So you know you've been, like you know, I mentioned
in the beginning, you've been coaching people across US, Asia, Europe, everywhere.
So tell me what is common? Like you said, you know,
it's we throughout these terms like work life, balanced, sense
(37:52):
of purpose, things like that. So what do you see
Is there anything or any or five things or ten
things or twenty things. Do you feel people grappling with
struggling with? What do you see across you know?
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah, well, you know the there's often the you know,
what's an X for me? And and do they have
the courage to do what's next? So, you know, you
work in a job and then it gets to a
point where there's no more challenge. And this happens to
women a lot. So my doctoral dissertation was on smart,
(38:28):
strong women in the workplace. So I think one of
the books that's often not mentioned in coaching is my
book Wander Woman W A N D E R. And
that's because women tend to discover that there's no more
challenge here. I need to move on because the challenges
have been limited, so they wander more than men. And
(38:50):
that book still women from all over the world email
me and said, I found your wander woman book. That
was so important to me, you know because most what's
the time we think women need to speak up and
you know, don't have enough courage. But what I found
with the women is that they're very confident about their
knowledge and their skills, but maybe the lack of confidence inside.
(39:14):
That's two different things. So having the courage to make
the change and to overcome the shoulds, what society tells me,
what my family tells me, I should be doing when
I know what it is I want, you know. So
a lot of people let the shoulds get in the
way of their dreams. But men and women, anytime you
(39:35):
hear the words should, ask about it. Who's saying should?
Is that your should? Who made that role? You know?
To try to understand the should is so important. That's
a big thing, you know, because people do want to
keep learning and growing, but they reach a point where
they're scared to do it, you know, and they're scared
to leave what they've had. I mean, that's a little
(39:58):
bit of security. Then there's often with leaders that I
have to have a difficult conversation and I'm afraid to
have it. And what I often find is it's not
so much what to do, but they're scared that they're
going to be judged as being a bad leader, you know.
(40:18):
So you know that seems to bubble up all the
time in coaching. So the you know, the I'm having
a difficult time with the employees and my relationship and
you know, I need to resolve it, But it's more
about the fear of resolving it than they need to
know exactly what to do. Usually they know, they're just
(40:38):
afraid to do it. So I think those are you know,
the main things, and all of us are overloaded, and
so we're losing sight of why we're here today, why
it's important the work you do, and that comes back
to purpose.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yeah you book the outbring right.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Sorry, smart your brain.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
I'll smart your brain. I'll smart your brain. Yeah. Sorry.
So that has some exercises as well. Lever say you
said that in your emotion because these days we've lost
touch of emotions. We I mean I feel that with
myself as well, you know, because it's so mechanically you're
going from one thing to the next. You really don't
know what you're feeling. Like the leader that you coached,
you told him that, you know, maybe it's loyalty. You
(41:22):
discover that, right, Yeah, So any practical time.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, but you know what we're taught, and I know
you know this that were brought up and I was
too that, you know, the most important thing is that
you do well in school, you know. And for me
it was not just academics, but sports. You know, that
was a big thing in my with my father because
I think he wanted a boy and he got me,
(41:47):
so I was gonna be it anyway. And I was
good when I was younger in sports. But we had
to be the best and or do the best, do
the best, not be There wasn't any focus on who
I am and my emotions. And we were told don't cry,
that makes you look weak, which you know, it's just
(42:09):
an expression of emotion. Don't show your emotions men and women.
And so what happens is we disconnect and we don't
even know how to define what we're feeling, you know.
And so a little bit of emotional intelligence is good
for everyone to learn, so to reconnect and not to
judge there's no bad feeling. It's just an expression of
(42:30):
my humanity. You know. I was taught in my last
company because I'm a crier, just to walk into the
room with the leaders and with your box of Kleenex
and set it down and say, sometimes when things get
out of hand, I might cry, don't you worry about
it all? Handle it? You know, which gave me strength
(42:51):
even if I cried. Who cares? You know? So when
we coach, we should never jump in and try to
take care of someone when they're feeling bad. Just let
them feel that way. They will go into the emotion
and they'll start to come out, and then we can say,
would you be willing to share what just came up
for you? Don't tell them they shouldn't feel that way.
(43:14):
So we have to deal with our own. When they cry,
we may react. So I notice I tighten up when
they have a reaction, release it and just be present
with them. So emotional intelligence is important for all coaches
to master. And now when i CEF changed the competencies
and added coaching mindset, that was a marker that you
(43:36):
regulate your emotions, that you manage, that you know how
to choose how you want to feel at any moment,
whether you're coaching or you're at home with your family,
how do I want to feel at this moment? So
that's why I wrote out Smart Your Brain and I
what's out now is my second edition, because you know,
(43:56):
I really wanted to share everything I've been learning.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
So yeah, yeah, thank you so much, Mansche. It's so valuable.
I won't keep you longer and I hope we can
do this again. Sometimes there's so much to talk about.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, great, well, thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
My pleasure,
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!