Final thoughts entering 2023 Rockets free agency

In their final preview episode, Ben DuBose and Paulo Alves offer one last look at Houston’s goals entering 2023 NBA free agency, which starts at 5:00 p.m. Central on Friday.

The Rockets should have a league-leading figure of approximately $60 million in available financial space beneath the salary cap. Is Houston’s apparent pivot from a James Harden-led offseason the correct choice? And if any pursuit of a top target such as Fred VanVleet, Brook Lopez, or Dillon Brooks fails, what should general manager Rafael Stone have in mind as a backup plan?

The free-agency themed show explores many contingencies, including potential trades of players on the current roster such as KJ Martin, Jae’Sean Tate, Usman Garuba, and Josh Christopher.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Cheers. Rockets fans, Welcome toThe lagger Line, an exclusive podcast from
the home of the Rockets, SportsTalk seven ninety The lagger Line. It's
proudly served to you by Carbox ClutchCity lagger It is good Yeah, Red

(00:22):
Nation, get ready to get ready, Get ready. The lagger Line starts
now. Welcome onboard forty eight hoursaway. Do you know where your NBA

(00:42):
GM is going to be once freeagency negotiations open up on Friday evening?
My suspicion is that for the Rockets, rockfel Stone may end up being in
Los Angeles, because that's we're accordingto reports, Fred van Fleet of the
Toronto Raptors is going to be oncethe window officially opens on Friday afternoon at
five pm Houston time, three pmPacific for free agency agreements to officially be

(01:06):
reached. So to talk about whatthe implications are here in Houston and quite
frankly well beyond, because with theRockets having a league leading salary cap figure
of nearly sixty million dollars in spacebeneath the cap, along with the potential
to use the room exception of nearlyeight million dollars a year, the reality
is that what the Rockets do couldset the market for the NBA as a

(01:27):
whole. So what happens here inHouston impacts everywhere else. And conversely,
there's a lot of situations elsewhere thatmay impact what rough Elstone does with all
of that money here in Houston.So to preview what's ultimately a very important
weekend for the franchise, we expectit to move quickly. I'm joined today
on the Logger Line by my goodfriend co hosting producer out of Portugal,

(01:48):
Palo Owls. This is the show, the Logger Line, that is where
we cover everything Houston Rockets basketball,for better or for worse. We had
our draft reaction show last weekend tothe Rockets bringing in Cam Whitmore and I'm
in Tom's and two guys that couldbe building blocks of the future. Now
this coming weekend, the Rockets aregoing to be bringing in guys that could
be more present pieces, guys thatcan help them next season. Specifically,

(02:08):
you know, the Rockets are lookinginto short term, bigger money deals because
the hope is that buy two orthree years from now. A lot of
these young guys are ready to stepinto even bigger roles. What they're looking
for now is players who can bridgethe gap to take them from twenty two
and sixty to something more relevant,put the players, the young prospects,
that is, into a more competitiveenvironment day in day out, and so

(02:32):
hopefully the Rockets will be signing someplayers in the near future that help them
with that objective. Anyway, we'regoing to be discussing all that today on
the logger line serves you coura seea clutches the logger of Carback Brewing.
As always, I'm your host,Bin Dubos, editor of USA Today's Rockets
Wire, and a contributor to SportsTalk seven ninety, the official flagship radio
station of your Houston Rockets mentioned joinedby my good friends hollow Alves. You

(02:55):
can follow him on Twitter at hollowAlves NBA. And I'll be honest,
there's a lot of Rockets fans thataren't necessarily looking forward to the opening of
free agency because there's some sticker shockwith these figures. There's talk that the
Rockets might end up offering a maxto van Fleet at over forty million dollars
a year on average in order toget him to take a two year deal.

(03:17):
Now, that's not as big ofa deal to the Rockets because they
have an artificially low payroll. Asit is, somebody's going to get that
money. So many of the playerson this team are very young and not
guys that are being paid what theircontributions really are until their second contracts.
So in the short term you cancertainly give out blow too deals without having
much of a consequence. But nobodyenjoys seeing the figures that are thrown out

(03:39):
for non superstars, and so Ithink while there's excitement for free agency,
there's also a little bit of sortof nerves and let's just get this over
with component to it as well.Paulo, where are you at entering Friday
night. Yeah, I'm definitely nervousbecause it's not so with a draft,
right, it's basically all the website. You may make. You may make

(04:01):
a bad decision, but it's alllike the ripple effects. It's not it's
not going to negatively impact your teamgoing forward, because it's always better to
have draft picked than to not haveit at all. We frequency, it's
different because every team has the capspace, and so your decisions may actually
hurt going forward rather than help.And so the spectrum of outcomes is a

(04:24):
little bit bigger. So I'm justreally nervous because we've seen it before.
Ryan Anderthon be an example that contractscan, or long term, long term
contracts can hurt your flexibility going forward. The other angle that make that has
me worried is the fact that Productsare a very young team and the Vetsis

(04:44):
are going to bring in have toreally be worth it because they're going to
be taking minutes away from guys thatare a part of the feature and that
you that you're going to develop.And so just reacting a little bit to
the latest reports, I've made myteeth with Dylan Brooks, right, he's
probably going to come. Hopefully he'snot coming on a long term deal of

(05:09):
just one or two years, andyou're retaining the early bird rights if you
want to bring him back. Ifif it works out, you can always
extend them. I've already made mypiece with that one. It's not ideal.
I would love for a different teamto offer or a contending team to
offer them their full month taxpayer mle. So I think what's going to happen.
He's likely coming here is what itis. I've settled on that one

(05:31):
for Advan, who's a little bitdifferent, right, because I actually like
him better than Dylan Brooks, andI think he fits a role that that's
needed for us going forward at placethe next two years. And so while
it's not ideal that you're spending fortymillion, forty million of your current caps
place on him, it's also notthe end of the world because you've got
to spend his kirds spend it onsomeone and he is outside of games harder

(05:55):
than the best one card available,and you couldn't get proof ree right.
You could always try for one,could always take a Sturythm like cal LOWI,
but he has the best available.I don't think he's great. I've
talked about my issues with the factthat he's undersized and aiding. I've talked
about the fact that his efficiency isvery poor, has been throughout his entire
career and as especially so last year. But hey, hopefully we're in a

(06:16):
team with more offensive weapons and betterand hopefully better spacing in Houston, and
then more guys that can put themon a foreign three for themselves. Hopefully
that makes it easier ROUNK. Soit's not ideal, but I'm fine with
it. I would rather use thatcap space too after a guy like Kem
Johnson, for example, but they'relikely going to have competition for him with
the Pistons, who have Matthew Williams, who used to coach Kem Johnson in

(06:39):
his first three years in the leaguewhen he was in Phoenix. There might
be a connection there. Other thanthat, Cam has already made it very
clear that he really likes Brooklyn andwouldn't mind coming back, So it might
be you know that the front officehas explored that avenue and they've deemed it
to be a long shot and soit's not worth it, and that's why
they're settling into for Vanvleek, Butultimately long term as long as it's not

(07:00):
more than two years, or thefact that Emen Thompson maybe could enough in
two years, and so you needa contract here that you're able to either
move or just let expire. It'sfine, right, It doesn't get me
excited, but it's fine. Theone that does get me excited is the
brook opis rumor who has which hasbeen shut down by Mark Stein. But
at the same time, Kelly Echoof the Athletic the Houston Rocket Speed Reporter

(07:24):
called it in his opinion, andit's not a report, right, it's
his opinion called it a fifty fifty, and to me, that's the big
price. To me, he isthe best wedding free agency. He provides
everything that Houston wants. Someone that'snot you know, that's probably going to
be okay not playing thirty minutes anatteny, and that you can you can
play both him and Slaying heavy minutes. You could even try them together.

(07:45):
Someone brings a different skill set whatthe Rockets currently have, someone that fits
perfectly with Emen Thomson and what heneeds earlier, and someone who is a
really unique archetype. Because and that'swhy to me, he is the most
important guy, because there's not reallya clear replacement through free agency or through
trades unless you're giving a significant asset. It's really rare to find that that's

(08:07):
an a weak ram protector and thatcan space the floor like Roukopez. The
fact that he's a VET, thathe's already won a championship, that he
has all of that experience is alsoa plus for him. So I'm going
into it kind of praying that atleast Rooklopez we can get, and if
we get Kopez hour hour already behappy. I think they already knocked it

(08:28):
out of the park with the coachinghigher. I think the draft was also
a home run. And so outof free agency, I don't expect much.
Not not that I don't expect much, but you don't need to do
much to have a successful offseason,be considering you're already nailed the two biggest
parts and so heading into it.I'm okay with Reverend Leet. I'm okay
with the one Brooks, even thoughit's not my favorite idea. What I
really really want out of it isthat they make and the extra effort or

(08:52):
whatever effort to they can to goget brookwopees and this will sundom and it
will sound like a heart because it'snot what the market says dictating. But
I would rather pay if it ensuresthat he's coming. I would rather give
the contractor giving to Fred van Vleetto Bruklopez and go for a keyboard point
guard. Then go for Fred VanVleetand not get Prouklopes, because when you

(09:13):
look at the replacements for them,if you don't get one of them,
it's a lot harder to replace whatPruklopez would bring than than what it would
be for for a vane for orwhat sorry, um, it's a lot
harder to replace what Prouklopez can beuh than it is to replace what for
a Thread and Fleet can bring.You could go out off and try and

(09:35):
get amount a Mores. You couldgo and try and get Kyle Ari.
You could even try and you knowthere's Dennis Row, there's a free agent.
For example. The end us wasa phrasement. You can get worse
versions of Fred and Fleet if youneed to. And so we're in this
weird situation where yes, we havesixty million cap space, but you can

(09:56):
spend a lot of it, andyou can overpay for guys because you're looking
at a two year window in anyof these contracts where most of your rookie
guys don't have to get paid yet. And so this cap splace you can't
approach it the same way you wouldfor a team that's already contending and looking
at the long term because of exactlythat. And so it's kind of a

(10:18):
zero sum game between the guys thatyou're going to that you're trying to bring
in and in a zero sum game, knowing that the money has to be
spent and that it's not going tobe spent past two years. Knowing that
those are the rules of the zerosum game. I value Brook Lopez versus
the field of centers available a lothigher than I value Fred van Fleet versus
the field of point guard options thatare available. So that's kind of my

(10:41):
mindset, mindset going into it.I'm, you know, really looking forward
to seeing what ends up becoming whatbecause we hear a lot of rumors and
today was mostly negative on brook Lolopezand mostly reassuring on Fred and Fleet as
far as the Rocket's interested in them, But you never know. Earlier today
we had a rumor, we hada three three hour span where um Vosa

(11:07):
from the from the Bulls was lookedat as an often and everybody was spending
about it. And then in threehours he just signed back with the Bucks
with the Bucks with the Bulls,and who doesn't prob anymore. So it's
really hard to tell what is what. And even a guy that as far
as Fragians he goes with the Rocketslooked really well connected. White click Fisher,
who reported the Facifity news also andprior to that, had reported Nielist

(11:33):
news earlier than anybody than everybody elsenow got it wrong or about the Pacific,
and so the day before free adiomsee twenty four hours, it's going
to be a lot of rumors thatwe were going to get bombarded with news
or if it's going to be leveragefrom aliens and teams, and so we
was just looking forward to having itall settled down and those ten to fifteen
minutes right after Fishency opens will probablyget the answer that we're looking for.

(11:56):
See and the leverage works both ways. Everyone always points out, and this
is true that agents of players acrossthe league are going to be saying,
Houston's interested in my client, becauseeverybody knows the Rockets have all this cap
space, they're incentivized to start winning. Now, we've talked about the pivot
point so many times in the past, and it's very easy for an agent
to point to Houston and try todrive up the bidding with the place that

(12:18):
the player actually wants to go,and so Houston can be used. That's
true. However, the flip sideis that for people who are genuinely interested
in going to Houston, there canbe some angling for a bigger portion of
that Pie. So if you're tryingto get conceivably fred Van Fleet, Brooklopez
and Dylan Brooks and somehow make itall work, then it's absolutely possible that

(12:39):
Brooklopez and Interrupts could be leaking informationabout potentially going back to Milwaukee in a
means of trying to get more moneyout of the Rockets. You're not really
going to know until free Agency actuallyopens. Now, when it opens,
I think we'll find out really quickly. The theme I've heard consistently from the
Rockets, and Kelly Eco reported thistoday, Well, they are going to

(13:01):
want to move quickly. They wantto make it work within certainly days and
perhaps hours, because if you don'tget your top targets, you need to
be able to move down your listrelatively quickly before all the other options dry
up, be it free agents,trades into your space, There's so many
things you can do when you havethat type of cap flexibility. And so

(13:22):
once negotiations can officially start, Ithink the Rockets are going to present terms
and say, look, you've gota couple hours to think about this,
tell us are you in or areyou out? And if they're out,
they're going to go down the listand so because of that, there could
be some angling, especially in thedays leading up to free agency and recording
this on Wednesday night, that someof the agents say, you know what,
I'm not really sure speaking on ahalf of their client if they want

(13:43):
to go to rebuilding situation in Houstonhoping that the Rockets cave at the last
minute and offer a slightly bigger pieceof that pie, and maybe they will.
You laid out a quality argument forgiving Lopez a bigger piece because there
is a bit of a drop offbetween Brooke and some of the other options.
I've talked about Clint Capella, forexample, as someone you could conceivably
trade for if you didn't get Lopez. But there's a big hit with your

(14:03):
facing because obviously Brook Lopez is agood three point shooter, Clint Capella is
not at all. So all ofa sudden, the spacing and those bench
lineups with Mom and Thompson could getpretty clunky, and that's a fair concern
to point out. Absolutely. Sothat's the kind of thing once you get
to free agency on Friday night,the Rockets are going to be trying to
get these agents basically to talk totheir client and come to a resolution one

(14:24):
way or the other, very veryquickly. The Rockets are a team that's
going to want to try and reachsome of these seals within the first couple
of hours. Maybe in the firsthour. We'll have to see. There
could definitely be some farworks when youhave as much space as they do.
As far as the general sense,I would say of declining optimism in recent
days, to me, this wasalways inevitable unless you were going after James

(14:46):
Harden, and even James is fairlycontroversial within the fan base for reasons we've
discussed in the past. By theway, I know, it looks like
the Rockets are out on James.Kelly Eco reported that we'll circle back to
that in a little bit. ButI just think that in general, agency
always sounded better to most fans inan abstract, since it's so easy to
say, Wow, we have sixtymillion dollars in cap space. Imagine what

(15:09):
you could do with that. Butas we've discussed plenty of times in the
past, the true peak guys don'tactually make it too free. Agency.
It's something that always sounds better intheory than it does in practice. The
people that actually make it to themarket are flawed in some way, and
if you're a rebuilding team, there'salso a bit of attacks that you typically
have to pay to get players tosign with you. In the case of

(15:31):
the Rockets, a team that wenttwenty two and sixty last year relative to
where they were, especially when we'veheard email Udoka talk about wanting to add
winners. He said that at thepress conference this week for the rookies,
adding guys that have been there,done that, played in high level situations,
competed for championships. Okay, well, if you're trying to get somebody
to leave a championship team for asquad in Houston that just went twenty two
and sixty, you typically have tooverpay a little bit. Now, I

(15:54):
don't think it's going to be thatdetrimental to the Rockets because it's been reported
numerous places and I've heard the samethat they're focused on term deals just basically
for this season and next that's whatthey're really focused on, and then the
twenty twenty five they can reassess.By that point you might need to free
up more minutes for your young guys. You would have early bird rights on
them if you do want to retainthem. But just in general, twenty

(16:15):
twenty five is a good point toreassess because that's also when your rookie extensions
start to kick in for the guysyou've drafted the last few years, most
notably Jalen Grey and all per InchShingoon that twenty twenty one class. So
I think the Rockets are looking atthis as a two year bridge to get
them back to some level of relevancy, and for a lot of reasons,
to get them to take a shortterm deal to get them to join a

(16:37):
rebuilding situation, you're going to haveto overpay, and the guys that are
in the pool of free agents arenot ideal, They're flawed in some way.
You're not going to have a Nisor Yoki just enter the market brush
off a championship in their late twenties. That's just not the way the NBA
works these days. And yet Ithink it's just so easy when you hear

(16:57):
these terms like sixty million dollars incap room for fans to just be over
the moon thinking in the abstract untilyou get actually to the nitty gritty and
you have to look at who theactual possibilities are. Then all of a
sudden, it gets a little harrierto the point where, again I don't
think anybody should be sad about it. You're still going to be improving your

(17:18):
team. But it's not like anybodyit's just going to be over the moon
about paying Fred van Fleet over fortymillion dollars per season. I get it.
He's a good player, he's nota great player. It's not like
he's going to radically transform you.Maybe he helps you make a bit of
a play in push next season,Certainly it's not like you're going to be
a playoff team. So again Iunderstand fans being a little underwhelmed, but
the reality is that's the way freeagency was always destined to be. And

(17:42):
I do want to underscore. Youknow, some have said, well should
the Rockets do this at all?Look, first off, they have to
you have to spend like ninety percentof the salary cap. That's the rule
of the NBA has in place,and so the Rockets have to spend forty
fifteen million dollars no matter what,just to get there. So there's going
to have to be some spending basedon the collective Bargaining Agreement. But secondly,

(18:07):
look, you've seen the last coupleof years. What can happen when
there are literally no veterans in place, when there's no adult in the room
other than I suppose Eric Gordon,and that was only half the time and
he was traded at the deadline.There is value in getting guys that know
what they're doing and to raise thebaseline competency to where you don't have guys

(18:29):
just mailing it in with their effortlevel the way the Rockets were entirely too
early this past season. You cansay the same about the season before that
as well. There is absolutely valuein getting you to a basic floor of
competency heading into next season, especiallybecause you're gonna have guys like Jalan green
All pre Insanoon entering year three,and that's the point in which if they
don't start taking the steps that youwant them to take, it would be

(18:52):
fair to have some concerns. Sofor a lot of reasons, the Rockets
do need to spend this money.They don't need. I know it's sexy
to say just play the young guys, because everybody's so excited about these guys
that they've drafted. Look, thisis basically you can almost consider this free
agency class in my opinion, aspart of the hardened trade, and what
I mean by that is, ratherthan take back guys like Kris Lavert,

(19:17):
Jared Allen, Ben Simmons, theRockets did something very unconventional when they kick
started this rebuild in early twenty twentyone. They didn't do what the Pelicans
did when Anthony Davis and they gotback the package of draft picks in brandon
Ingram. They didn't do what lastyear, for example, the Jazz did
with trading Donovan Mitchell. They gotback Laurie Market and then the deal.
Didn't do what the Sons did todeadline or the Nets did trading with the

(19:37):
Sons, and in the Kevin Durantdeal that sent him to Phoenix, the
Nets got Mcalbridge's back. They didn'tdo what Oklahoma City did in twenty nineteen
in the Paul George trade when theygot shaygil Just Alexander back Rafael stone In.
The Rockets went almost entirely with draftequity, and I think part of
it was they weren't over the moonabout the players that were available at the

(19:59):
time. Think because the limited windowwith the future pick obligations to Oklahoma City
that kick in from the Russ CPtrade starting next season. The Rockets said,
Hey, if it's even close,let's err on the side of just
being super young, i e.Tanking and maximizing our draft hall. But
the reality is, rather than takeguys that would clog their books and perhaps
demand extensions, like for example,Jared Allen got twenty million a year for

(20:22):
five years from the Cavaliers once theytook him instead of Houston in the hardened
trade, the Rockets said, youknow what, will be super young the
next couple of years, which totallybought him out, and rather than take
any of these guys on our books, will just save up for twenty twenty
three. That was always going tobe the point in which they had room.
First it was the Russ contract,then it was the John Wall contract.
Twenty twenty three was always the pointin which they were set to have

(20:42):
an enormous amount of flexibility, andrather than take any guys on that might
help them be a bit more relevantin the short terms, Rockets said,
you know what, and this isalmost unheard of, they said, we're
going to take a package for atrue top ten player, which Harden was
at that time, that offers almostnothing in price valued. Yeah, they
got Victor Oladipo, but that wasalways a hail mary. That was always

(21:03):
a you know, let's see ifmaybe you catch lightning in a bottle and
he can somehow be the exception tothe rule and coming back from that type
of injury. In reality, theyknew that it was a package focused almost
entirely on draft equity, and anextension of that is that rather than put
a player on their books that isn'tperfect, it might harm their draft odds
a little bit in the short term. You know what, let's just keep
our books clean and then we canbring in those types of players in twenty

(21:26):
twenty three once we have financial flexibility. So the way I would look at
it, you should almost compare someof the guys that you can that you
can conceivably sign in this free agencyclass to guys like Here's Laverte, like
Jared Allen, like Ben Simmons.That conceivable you could have landed in the
Harden negotiations two and a half yearsago. Maybe Pascal Siakam, you can
throw him in there as well.Michael Porter Jr. Thinking back to all

(21:48):
the various configurations of pardon trades,we threw out there about two to two
and a half years ago. Becausereally that's what this goes back to.
The Rockets basically said, you knowwhat, we'll do what very few teams
do, will punt on the present. We'll just go all in on the
future, and we'll circle back tothe veterans in twenty twenty three. Well,
now is the time. And Iwould say that while I don't think

(22:11):
that the last two years have beendevastating, Look, you have seen some
of the limitations of a just throwthe young kids and have no veterans,
nobody that really knows what they're doingon the court. No, we've seen
some of those habits affect the teamand its development the last couple of years,
and so this is the way thatyou can address that. So the
way I would frame it for fansthat are sort of underwhelmed by the names

(22:33):
and the terms that are out there, consider this an offshoot of the hardened
trade. Instead of getting guys likethe Vert or Alan or Ben Simmons or
whoever was out there. Conceivably twoand a half years ago, the Rockets
said, you know what, we'lljust pick this up in twenty twenty three.
Will maximize our draft capital in theinterim, and now the Rockets are
actually going to spend that money thatmight otherwise be tied up. And that's

(22:56):
you know, people always ask whyare the Rockets at this stage in their
rebuilt spin that much money when youlook at teams like Oklahoma City and Utah
that are similarly rebuilding but aren't expectedto be major free agency players. And
the answer, again, it goesback to the trades. They got big
salaries in the deals that they madefor their superstars. Oklahoma City has say

(23:18):
Guilder's Alexander on a big deal,Utah has Lorie Marketing. They got Colin
Sexton in that deal as well.The Rockets went almost entirely draft equity.
Yeah, they had to wait acouple of years to have all the salaries
roll off, but this was alwaystheir play. The Rockets just in a
very at a very high level,the Rockets built their foundation of their rebuild

(23:40):
around a lot more flexibility than someof their rivals did. We can argue
about whether that's the right strategy orthe wrong strategy, but the reality it's
it's clear, It's been clear fortwo to three years, and now is
the time that the Rockets are goingto start bringing in, even if it's
not an SGA type player, atleast some capable veterans that can hopefully raise

(24:00):
the floor of this young team.Because ultimately that's why I think, for
example Oklahoma City, these young playersdeveloped a lot last year. Sure we
can talk about coaching, but someof it's just you have SGA and the
floor, you're going to be alot more relevant. And that's I think
what the Rockets are trying to do. It may not be as sexy as
an SGA, but at a highlevel, you've got to spend this money.
I guess number one, you gotto spend forty five million dollars no

(24:22):
matter what, just to reach thesalary floor. But beyond that, to
me, this is the Rockets chanceto do what they didn't do in the
hardened trade, which is bring inthe types of vets that raise the floor.
And even if they're not the focalpoint, even if they're not the
guys that three or four years fromnow we're leading you on contending runs.
Again, we're talking about guys thatcan be a bridge. Basically, the
Rockets just deferred getting that bridge fora couple of years, and now is

(24:45):
the time to actually get those guys. That's the way I'm looking at it.
Howlow. Does that make sense toyou? Yeah, it does.
And to compare it, I actuallyfound a couple of comparisons I think are
really interesting. If you look atthe Pistons and what they did they have,
well, they were never really backed. They were transitioning out of the
play Griffin era, but they hadthe high draft pick and they took Killiam

(25:07):
Hicks. And then the year afterthat they had caps place and they went
after Karremy Grant and they paid him, you know, a lot more than
he was making with Denver, andthey have faith that he was more than
a role player, and they endedup paying off for them and they had
that kind of vet presence throughout theyearly point in the rebuild. As you
said, the Rockets wanted to bottomout completely because they didn't have the time

(25:27):
that the Pistons aft because they thePistons always owned all of the draft pick,
so there was no clear time wherethe Pistons can be bad for as
long as they want. If youlook at the Jazz, the Jazz kept
a lot of the vets that theygot back and they ended up being got
getting the ninth the ninth, pickingthe draft out of it as opposed to
fully tanking and having a true shotat at rowing Banyama. Right, they

(25:48):
had they made that decision. Theycurrently have a lot of the vets,
but they don't have the intel theyused to has. It's a different situation.
And then, okay, Cy's reallyhard because if you remember back at
the Russall Westbrooken and the Paul GeorgeTrait, they were good for them for
one next three year and then theythanked all the way down. What's the
difference. Well, as I said, all of these teams had their picks,

(26:10):
or if they had rid them,they were protected enough if they could
control their own faith. Rockets did. And you could make the argument that
a couple of years later the Thunderworked in troll in the depths of the
reveal, they did have cap spacethat they ended up using to take on
all hord for them doing you know, reb LinkedIn things. But at that
time it's different from what the Rocketshave or had early on because they didn't

(26:33):
have that desperation to get vets inthat can help you take that first tim
to help hopefully ignite the place thatyou already have into playing into you know,
having an environment when they're playing betterbasketball and that helps their development.
That to them happened naturally because theyhad one player that was a lot further
along than the rest of their youngguys. They had Shagulden's Alexander who was

(26:59):
easily too year asking three years aheadof any of the guests that they drafted
afterwards, Josh Katie all of thoseguys two years ahead because they got him
on a rookie deal from the PaulGeorge trip, and so he helped kickstart
what the Rockets are trying to do, which is go from the terrible team
to a mediocre team or a playinside team. The rocketson have the luxury
of of Kylan Green being here.If Kiln Green were heading into his fourth

(27:23):
tier or into his swift year,then perhaps it would make sense to take
an approtechy in word to the Thunder, But it doesn't because all of these
guys are so young. And sowhat I would say is the most similar
situation to what the Rockets are tryingto do is actually the Atlanta Hawks.
Heading into the twenty twenty twenty twentyone season, they had Ray younger on
a rookie contract. They had theAndrey Hunter, they had an Aca Congo

(27:47):
still, they had John Collins stillon his rookie deal, Kevin Horder,
a lot of good young players.They had yesterday for quint Cappellin and they
win the Rockets, and they hadcap space. And if you recall back
to this free agency here, thiswas after Ad was traded to the Lakers.
He had one year on his contract, but they couldn't extend them for

(28:08):
the max, and so he hadto hit three agency to ten sent with
the Lakers, and he was theonly major free agents out there. Other
than that, it was the telemicgrants of the world. And what the
twenty two They had a cap spasedhad a really young team and they went
out and got some vets to helpkickstart what was the twenty win team into

(28:29):
a thirty win team or three fivewin team. And back then those vets
were the Nilo Gallinari and Bogda andBogda and Bogdanovic. And if you go
and look at the structures of theircontracts, although they were four year contracts,
and although they were getting paid roughlytwenty million a year or eighteen and
nineteen million a year, which ifyou scave up to today's cap space,
would be twenty two to twenty threemillion a year. The structures of those

(28:52):
contracts included a team option and nonguaranteed years at the end of them,
which made them basically two or threeyear deals within with the rock start arguing,
and so what the Rockets are tryingto do is exactly the same,
bringing vets that fit into any placedown that you're trying to play. If
you will get Bogdan Vogdanovich, whowas a restrictive Cree agent, do you
guys remember there was some there wassome drama with the Bucks going after him

(29:14):
and then the tempering finally had toback off. But if you look at
the types of role players that theyare, the nilocal and I is going
to fit into into anything. It'she's an elite tutor, stretch for He's
going to fit into anything that you'retrying to build. Bogdan Volgano, it's
the same thing. He's a hardshooting two guard that has, you know,
some ability to put the ball onthe floor, but he's kind of
a microwave score that's also an elitetutor. So you can play off ball

(29:36):
really well. And so what therock construct to do is bring in guys.
You know, there is no Maxreligion, just like there wasn't for
the Hawks they had. They haveyoung players in place, perhaps more than
the Hawks had, but that canonly be a good thing. And now
you're going to bring in play thatare going to fit into whatever placetwle you
want to you want to play.They're going to perhaps bring something to the

(29:56):
team that that you may lack.For the Rockets at stefen and shooting and
actually endplaymaking because they do need apoint guard because I don't think am and
Thompson's ready right away. But it'sthe same philosophy. You're going to bring
in mid your high end role players, which are mid your free agents than
the twenty million a year to twentyfive million year type of guys, and

(30:17):
you're going to try and you're goingto overpay them in order to get them
to take hard third deals, soyou're not committed to them long term because
you never know what each of ouryoung players are going to turn into and
how quickly they'll be able to takeover, which is what the Hucks did.
And you're kind of you're going toplay both ends of it. You're
going to if they're good enough orif the end players are good enough,
they will be able to take over. If not, you have the vets

(30:38):
to be able to still uphold acertain standard on the team. The team
will still be able to win games, and it will be a competitive environment
that will, you know, encourageplayers to play their best and not characters
about stats and not go into agame expecting to lose every time, which
is what has happened the last coupleof years. I think Raphael Stone may

(30:59):
they of two puttin perspective how importantit is to actually play, to play
competitive games, because there are peoplethat think that Rock should just they can't
get their guys at a low costor or an a fair contract and make
the masses that just should just takeon Salidos rack Holston made a good case
as to why that isn't really thecase, which is he mentioned how sometimes

(31:26):
young players it's not that they andthis was on an interview with Sports off
of a ninety I'm fairly certain howcertain how at times you know it's not
that players know how to play winningbasketball and choose not to, which is
the case with sunfits. It's thatyoung players don't know how to play winning
basketball, and so they revert backto what made them win games in their

(31:48):
way to the NBA. If youwill get a guy like kill and Green
when he was playing in high schooland he was the king of the world
he was, he would try tofollow whatever the coach is trying to do,
and when it thurn't work as ateam, it's one good enough for
whatever the reason who was the solutionwas, I'm going to take the ball
myself. I'm going to bring itup the cord and I'm going to shoot
it every single time. And I'mso much better than these other guys that
this is going to work. Thisis the deed, the default mindset that's

(32:12):
there because of how AAU ball worksand because it's just okay, if I
can't win a certain way, I'mgoing to take it upon myself to it.
And when a bunch of players dothis, it leads to you and
you add that to the lack ofaccountability, to the lack of competitiveness at
their position, with the lack ofgood coaching, it leads to the problem

(32:37):
that multiple rebuilding teams too. Andto move on from this, mindset is
why it's important. It is theentire reason it's important to bring in vets,
because this might be the default behaviorfor Killen Green, who was a
scoring guard. There may be differentdifferent ways of getting to the same to
the same conclusion for different types ofart types of players. Perhaps one of

(33:00):
the reasons why Shangun was so effectiveand so kind of look more mature on
the court is the fact that throughouthis entire career he probably wasn't this phenom
playing a U ball. He wasprobably playing in a league setting, in
a youth league somewhere in Turkey,where he wasn't just this clear phenome better

(33:22):
than everybody else. I'm going totake it all upon myself because that's not
really the culture in sports in Europe, especially especially basketball, And so because
of all of these things is whyit's important. It's why they have to
bring in vets to kind of takethat extra step and look like a competent
team. Now it's to the Rocketsto make sure that the fats that they

(33:45):
do bring in our flexible can putit fit well with the guys that we
currently have. The money is notreally the problem, it's more how they
will impact the team on the court, because as I said before, so
zero some game, they are goingto have to spend the money. It's
just how they spread the side tospread the money across different free agents.
And ideally you want to spend alot of money on a few free agents

(34:07):
rather than little money on a bunchof them because you have so many young
players and there's only so many,so many roster spots. There are actually
a lot of factors that contribute towhat the Rocks are willing to do to
get a guy like Fredern leep right, or a guy like Brooklopes, who
even at twenty two million a yearis probably an overpay more than he would
get from the Bucks. So thefact that it's a zero some game,

(34:29):
it's the fact that they have tospend the money. It is the fact
that even within the money they haveto spend, they would rather sign a
couple of top guys or three,you know, high tier guys, rather
than perhaps they will be on vatersalaries and they won't be assets, because
that's not the point. The pointis to get the product on afford to
prepared. That's the main goal.The main goal isn't to take these guys
and flip them down the line.No, that's why you're taking you're giving

(34:52):
them small contracts. It's because it'sabout what they can contribute right now over
the next couple of years to makethis team play competitive basketball. And considering
how many rosters, how many youngguys we have they have to play,
and how many rotation spots are available, you would rather spend forty million a
year on further than fleet In twentymillion on Brook Lopez and know that those
are not going to be value dealsfor two years. Then you would to

(35:15):
go and get I don't know,I could pull up the Freedman series right
now, but go get a calcoosBy twenty million a year plus. I
don't know that's twenty millionaire. It'sstill kind of a meatier free agent,
but just looking at at least rightnow, then go and get a Jordan
carks In a twelve million a year, plus a White Powell at nine million
a year, plus a my SonPlumbly at nine million a year, plus

(35:37):
a Seth Curry at eight million year. You could bring in six or seven
guys at value deals if you wantedto, but that's not the goal because
they're going to come here and reallygoing to play, and they're going to
get in in the way of theyoung guys. So that's why the Rockets
are in a really unique situation.And sometimes when I talk to fans of
other teams, they don't they don'treally understand. They look at eighty million
for friends and wait for two years, and they wonder, why, why

(35:59):
will you not rather have like anormal team, Why would you rather not
have twenty million but for four yearsand so instead of paying forty year,
paying thirty million per year. Allof these nuances are kind of hard to
explain, but it's the truth ofthe unique positions the Rockets find themselves in
that I've explained so far. Yeah, and again this circles back to the

(36:22):
hardened trade, because the real pivotpoint for the franchise is actually going to
come about twenty twenty five twenty twentysix, when you hope that at least
one or two of these young studsor what you hope to be young studs
that you've drafted in this period arecapable of actually developing by the time they're
in year four, year five,year six and to something close to being
the best or second best player ona championship level team, and by that

(36:45):
point, even if they can't doit themselves, and maybe you're close enough
to where it makes sense to cashin all of your assets. Talk about
all the future. Brooklyn picks thefact that after twenty twenty six the Rockets
have all of their own, thenmaybe you can be lash destination for a
leverage trade that you can combine withyour young guys that are at that point

(37:06):
reaching something closer to the prime oftheir NBA careers. That's the actual pivot
point. This is simply the pivotpoint financially, and so it makes sense
for them at this point to startfilling out the roster the way they didn't
over the last couple of years.But in a way you still are rush
fall zone. Is called it Phasetwo, but it's almost like Phase one

(37:27):
B. You're still in Phase one. Now you're going to be doing something
more analogous to what again seems likeOklahoma City in Utah did a year ago,
where you have these developing prospects andyou're combining them with other veterans that
can help them in their development.The actual pivot point, at least from
a big picture franchise winner, arethey ready to take deep playoff runs and

(37:51):
beyond is still probably a couple ofyears away. And again that's why the
Rockets are looking at these two yeardeals, because that allows them to reassess
at that time. You also haveearly bird rights if you want to keep
them. I do want to addressvery quickly. I've seen some say,
well, what if you just signa bunch of one year deals. Look,
if you do that, how areyou going to be in a materially
better place a year from now tospend the money? And a year from

(38:13):
now is the last time that youcan actually do it, because in twenty
twenty five you're going to have thoserookie extensions start kicking in for Jalen and
all Prensi and Gooon. So it'seither this year or next. And the
type of guys you could get forone year deals, they're not going to
be good enough to do much foryou in terms of wins and losses this
season, and then you're right backin the same place a year from now,

(38:34):
and perhaps you're even less desirable becauseit's not like you have the new
coach factor to sort of say,look, this is new, this is
not going to be to Stephen SilasEra. No, if you just do
these one year deals, then you'reprobably back in the same exact place a
year from now, and then atthat point you're even more leverage because everybody
knows you have no choice but tospend it, because starting in twenty twenty
five, it's almost certainly going tobe gone unless your young guys just all

(38:55):
busted, and at that point youhave an entirely different problem. But I
think the reality is that it makessense for the Rockets, even if you
have to overpay, to spend thatmoney now, and it's going to make
them a better team. And Ijust think again, there's just a bit
of a fundamental misunderstanding by a lotof fans as to what free agency actually
is in the NBA. And tobe fair, we are in a very

(39:19):
atypical situation compared to most freely liketo most cap space teams that are heading
into free agency. So I kindof understand why the concept and all and
all the nw ones is pretty newbecause we are very restricted in what we're
looking for and now, and thatleads to and I think it's actually a
good sign from the front office thatthey are thinking differently than what a typical
team would think, because they arein a very different situation and that shows

(39:44):
an ability to adapt. And evenif I don't like the targets and specific
they still makes sense, which iswhy I say, Hey, I'm not
the biggest fan of the wind Brooks, and I'm not the biggest fan of
Fred Fentley, but for the situationthat they're in and the type of contracts
that they're handing out, those guysmay it makes sense to go after those
guys because they feel a need ona team they're going to help right away.

(40:04):
The guys that bring culture, allof the guys that they're tied to,
the guys that fit into what theteam's trying to do. The end,
their guys that have an incentive totake on or that either don't have
competing offers for more years, orhave an incentive to take to go on
shorter deals, or for eventually he'sgoing to be thirty. If he takes
a two year deal, he's goingto be thirty one by the end of
it. It will be his lastweek contract if he plays well, and

(40:30):
it will be right at the twentytwenty five new TV deal. That and
the NBA's negotiating for Dwan Brooks.He's just coming off from a from a
from a public perceptive standpoint, aterrible season why he challenged challenge the lebron
and then wasn't good enough to toown up to it and on the court,
you know, back it up.But he's still twenty seven. He's

(40:52):
still going to be twenty nine bythe time his deal's over, and he'll
get a second chance to go andfregiency again and trying to get the most
money that he can with brook Lopezfor a different reason. Nobody's going to
offer him more than two years becausehe is thirty five years old, and
so for him it also makes senseto take a shorter deal. And so
it's all of this to say thatI think it's actually it's actually a good

(41:13):
thing that the office that recognizes thisvery special place they're in and they're not
approaching it this like what the typicalway is to approachcap space, which is
to get value deals that could turninto usets long term, because it's really
not what the team needs, notreally what makes sense for the situation,
and their ability to adapt actually makesme more confident, makes me more comfortable

(41:36):
with their ability to build this teamgoing forward. Yeah, and I should
mention, by the way, inthe one year scenario that I've seen tossed
out, you would also be wastingyet another year of development for your young
guys because you wouldn't be surrounding themwith the optimal type of vets. So
that might be the biggest consequence ofall. In reality, they're going to
have to spend this money. AndI want to talk briefly about James Harden
because there is some news from KellyEcho of the Athletic that the Rocket are

(42:00):
effectively out of running for Harden ashe understands it, and that more or
less shives with the stuff I've heardfor weeks now. I do think,
looking back to all the hardened podsthat we've done in the past, this
is why I've never understood the outragethat some had. And again I think
a lot of it's just emotional overthe way he left, and people get

(42:22):
in their fields when he doesn't comethrough in the playoffs, which shouldn't be
a consideration here at all for reasonswe've discussed in the past. But yeah,
I just never understood the outrage becauseit's like, look, when you
get down to the nitty gritty,what do you think you're actually going to
be doing with this money. It'snot like there's going to be something that's
just clearly a huge win to whereyou're wanting to have a parade outside Toyota

(42:44):
Center. No. Free agency typicallydoes not work that way in the NBA.
Everything is leverage trades with the truestar level players and those really want
to go to a destination like Houston. It was always going to be this
way if it wasn't James Harden.And ultimately that's the path that the Rockets
shows. And I'm not in lovewith it, but I do think it
will help and I think it shouldget these young guys in a better position

(43:06):
to develop in ways that they haven'tthe last couple of years. Look,
the one thing I'll say on Hardenedto close the loop, I think what
changed from the Rockets perspective. Well, number one, I think the majority
of the stories that have been leakedsince Christmas were from James Harden's people and
not the Rockets. Now, Idon't think the Rockets were necessarily against it.

(43:28):
That's why you didn't hear a lotof pushback, But I think the
root element was from Harden's camp,and I don't think it was leverage.
No, I feel very confident insaying he had and still has if the
interest was there a legitimate interest inreturning to Houston for reasons that go beyond
basketball. It's his home on anumber of levels. However, I think

(43:51):
from a Rockets perspective, what theyneeded to do after that season ended was
certainly get a coach, but alsodecide how they wanted to play. They
couldn't make any long term decisions talkingphilosophically until they brought the new coach and
his staff in place and could sitdown and have hard meetings, which in

(44:13):
the press conference the other day,ar Feldstone and talked about, you know,
the gloves coming off and some ofthe discussions with Udoka and how he
views the roster and what they needto do. The honeymoon phase is over.
Now you can actually talk about howyou mold these guys and this team
moving forward. Look, there werethings the Rockets just simply could not give
a real answer to until they knewwho their coach was and what style they

(44:35):
wanted to play. And so Ithink for the months of leagues that came
from Harden's camp, sure the Rocketswere potentially interested. They knew that they
were going to be looking to signguys to short term deals. James Harden,
turning thirty four, could be acandidate for that because of his age,
and there's absolutely circum circumstances. He'sstill a top twenty type player when
he's healthy. Led the league andassists last year. Clearly the Rockets need
a point guard where he could havehelped. But at the end of the

(44:57):
day, the Rockets, it wasn'tso much that they'd say, no,
we're not interested in Harden, becausethey're absolutely scenarios where they could have been.
But they couldn't say they conclusively wouldbe interested either because they didn't even
know who their coach was and howhe'd want to play. So from the
Rockets standpoint, there were just alot of sort of yeah, we could
be, but let's just see howthis plays out and we'll pick up the
discussions in the summer. And theypicked up these discussions since hiring emay Udoka,

(45:21):
And the bottom line is emay hasa lot of say over personnel.
You probably noticed that the press conferencewhen I asked Ffel the question about rookies,
most notably I'm in Thompson and CamWhitmore perhaps playing less this year than
Jalen and Jabari did the last twobecause of transitioning to face through the rebuild.
Rafello quickly redirected me to Emay,pointing out that Emay has that control
and certainly he does over game togame management in terms of minutes, but

(45:44):
I think also he has a voicein personnel, he had options around the
NBA coaches like that. They havea lot of leverage and they use it
and they pick a destination that givesthem a little bit of control. And
I'm sure you notice Paullo that Emaywas in the war room with Rafel's on
draft night making those phone calls.He's a part of the process. And
I just think that the way it'sbeen phrased to me, Harden would have

(46:07):
been great for the development of JariSmith Jr. And Tari Eason, but
they were much more uncertain about theguys who need the ball in their hands
if that would be workable for them. And ultimately, since the Rockets aren't
going to win a championship no matterwhat in the next year or two,
then that's the bigger long term goal. It's how do you develop the non

(46:32):
Jabari and Tari guys, Because Ithink Jabari Andtari are so plug and play.
Yeah, they would have been greatwith Harden. I don't think it's
a coincidence that Jabari was the guythat went out of his way during the
last couple of months to actually makea case for bringing Harden. Here.
It's the others. It's Jalen Green, it's all Pren Shangoon, It's Kevin
Porter Jr. It's am and Thompsonnow that you've drafted him. These are
guys that need the ball in theirhands more to truly unlock their value.

(46:57):
And James Harden, even though he'sa great pastor, look, he is
ball dominant. That's his playing style. Even though I think it was exaggerated
that Chris Haynes basketball freedom quote doestie into this a little bit. There
were concerns that Harden in the shortterm would not have been best for the
development of those types of players inthe long term, as opposed to someone
like Fred Van Fleet, who canprovide a little bit more off ball value.

(47:20):
Isn't as ball dominant can be abit more aggressive defensively. There's just
a lot more ways you can fitin a Fred van Fleet around the young
guys that you're trying to develop andhopefully turn into high usage guys on championship
contenders. If you're years from nowthat being your Jaalen Shungoon class, it
would have been very difficult to blendthem with Harden And I think you know,

(47:42):
if the Rockets were just purely tryingto win in the next couple of
years, they would have said,yeah, let's just take the wins and
we'll worry about the rest later.But at the end of the day,
it's not about that. It's aboutyou know, certainly you want a few
more wins, but you also wantto make sure that you understand the bigger
picture, which is development and tryingto get these young guys to the level
at which they actually can carry achampionship team or something close to that a

(48:04):
few years down the line. Andultimately they think the guy like Fred Vanfleet
is an easier fit. Bottom line, will it work A time will tell.
There's arguments both ways, but thereality is, look, when you
hire email Udoka a coach of thatstature, he deserves the right to make
that call. I think, evenmore than the draft getting the coaching hard
right. It was probably the mostimportant thing they could do this whole off

(48:25):
season. I think they did,and once he came in, I think
there's a certain way that he wantsto build out this roster, and I
just don't think that James Harden isa fifth for it. And as someone
that was open to the hardened returnscenario, I may not entirely love it.
There may be times last next seasonif Harden has a great game that

(48:45):
I say, Wow, why couldn'tthe Rockets have added him, especially of
Fred Ventfley is shooting sub forty percentfrom the field. Again, not saying
it's going to work one hundred percent, but I will say that if you
invest heavily in a coach like emailUdoka, and you give him the autonomy
that luring a coach of that staturerequires, you've got to let him make
tough decisions. And I just thinkthe bottom line is it's pretty clear that

(49:07):
the Van Fleet model is what emayUdoka sees as the right short term bridge
for guys like Jalen and all Pand Aman Thompson. And time will tell
us to whether he's right, butultimately he's earned the right to make that
choice. And from a general managerperspective, in terms of rothfel Stone,
I think playing to Emay's vision andgiving him a chance to implement that vision

(49:31):
that's got to be the first priority. And so ultimately, if Emay has
a lot of conviction about this beingthe path, then Rafael should follow it,
right, especially if the contracts area fairly short term and it's not
like you're talking about, you know, whether it's hard and whether it's fan
Fleet, whether it's somebody else.Entirely, it's not like any of these
guys is going to be around inall likelihood by the time you're trying to
contend. So since we're simply talkingabout a short term bridge, no matter

(49:53):
what I mean, you may aswell say, you know what, Emay,
I'll trust you and let's see howthis works out, right. Yeah,
And to me, I think ifthey were given the chance to and
you can correct me if I'm wrong, if they were given the chance to
sign James Harden on a two year, eighty four million dollar contract, I
think that they would instead of EvanVleet. But I think it's as pleased

(50:15):
you don't think. Damn, Idon't know if I agree with that or
not. I can see that.I can see the point for wanting a
better defensive offball point guard when whenit needs to be. But I also
think that ultimately that has to bea little bit a portion of it.
That is, Hey, Harden's notgoing to settle for the same terms that

(50:35):
that fredently it will, And ifthere's a big emphasis on this being a
bridge, it's not only is itnot only do I think Philly's most desperate
than Houston to give Harden more money, more long term and therefore you know,
having authentically in keeping him. Ialso think it's a lot harder to
if you bring Harden in and someone'sready earlier on if you don't, Green

(50:58):
takes a leap. If I'm andThompson takes a a leap opperent, it
takes a leap. It would bea lot harder to transition from Harder into
one of those guys, because Harden'sis you know, as you said that
a ball handler has more you knowhow the health I said, this has
more of a not a reputation,but has more of a track record.

(51:19):
It's it will always be harder todiminish Harden's role than it would be to
diminish a guy like Fred just becauseof the of the players that they are,
and that the reputation, the kindof the histories that they have as
far as as being successful. Harderis an All Star and was for most
of his career. It's harder toscale back down a guy like that rotantly,

(51:42):
even if if even if you saythat given the same contract, they
would go for and with. Ican also understand why because, as you
said, I think people sometimes thinkthat we are bringing in the FETs to
win, right, but we arenot bringing in the FETs to win by
themselves. And it's it's a lotof we're bringing vets to enhance and into

(52:04):
into kind of make the game easierfor the core pieces that are already in
place. Because when you look atthe team, yes, we're bringing in
vet and as the priority, andthey're going to have a meritocracy type of
deal going on. At the sametime, they do understand that Kiln Green,
Amaron Thompson, Clip, Barry Smith, Albrand Shangoon, these are the

(52:25):
guys that are going to increase theceiling of your team, and so they
are the priority. And I thinkit's a lot harder to convince it's a
lot harder to convince harder than thatthey are the priority, and that that
he's not the most important player onthe team. Then then it is to
tell Frthern with, Hey, you'recoming in right, and you are probably
the best player on the team toby the at the time that you come

(52:46):
in. But your game suits allof these players a lot better. And
if maybe and if Dylan Green takesa leapin is now an all star level
player fur than we will have amuch easier time to referring to him than
a guy I claim sardon would,just because of the type of games that
they have. And so even thoughI'm not the biggest fan of friend and

(53:07):
that I can see how his skillssaid kind of like an make a smart
to some extent on higher volume cancan at least on offense, can fit
better with what they're trying to do. Because as I said, at the
end of the day, they're ringingin vets to make a team more competitive,
end to increase wins. But they'renot bringing the vets to win for

(53:27):
the young players. No, they'reringing the vets to help the young players
win by putting some more solid experiencedplace pieces around them, and it's not
a we're trying to maximize, youknow, if they had a chance,
I don't think they would bring ina full starting five of vets that are
going to get them thirty five winsversus bringing the vets that fit better around

(53:52):
around the young players. I wouldonly get your thirty five wins, only
get you thirty wins, but thosewins would come from later young players breaking
through and with the help of theVets getting to those thirty wins. Because
at the end of the day,if the goal were to have the Vets
carried damn players for the entire season, they wouldn't have gone through a rebuild.

(54:12):
They would have, you know,stayed mediocre, taken Ben Simmons taken
carous of word and kept going thatway. Yeah. Look, the bottom
line, I'll say the conversations thatI've had, terms never really entered into
it. They knew of his interestin returning, and I think, especially
at his age, there was somethingreasonable that could have been worked out,

(54:37):
particularly given his desire to be here, which I don't believe that was leverage
at all. I've heard that frommultiple sides of the equation. They had
the opportunity. I just think itsimply comes down to playing style. That's
what I heard over and over againthe last few weeks. During the season.
It was more again just vague.Yeah, we could be interested,
but it was more again just towait and see who going to hire his

(55:00):
head coach? How do they wantto play? But I think, particularly
after hiring emay Udoka, there's justbeen consistent messaging that they want a certain
type of player to mold with theseyoung guys, and ultimately Fred van Fleet
is James Harden isn't. And Ithink that applies even if the money was
hypothetically the same. And you maynot agree with that if you're listening,
I just think you know that's theirthought process. And if you're going to

(55:22):
spend big money to get a coachlike ema Udoka, who's being paid top
ten, almost top five in theNBA, and you compete against other teams
to get him, you give hima lot of power. You'd be doing
a disservice if you didn't let himtry to implement his vision. And at
least when we're talking about short termbridge pieces, if you're a Felstone,
even if you think that James Hardenmight be the better player in a vacuum,

(55:43):
which I don't think there's any mighttoo it he is. Look,
you do need to be deferential,especially in this this point now where the
Rockets are still trying to build theculture, they're trying to set the tone.
It's not just about wins. It'salso about getting these guys to a
level that they haven't reached before thebad habits. And if you may Udoka
thinks this is the best way todo it, then I'm willing to be

(56:04):
open minded to that. And again, let's see how this plays out last
topic before we close out. Ido think that aside from free agency signings
or trades, we've talked a littlebit about potential targets. If you want
more on that, you can goback in our Loggerline archives a couple of
weeks and look at our free agencypreview episode. We've got plenty of names
on that when the Rockets would pursueboth in terms of free agents as well

(56:25):
as trade targets with their cap room. This is more just about our expectations
what's actually going to happen once freeagency opens on Friday night. Aside from
anyone they might sign or trade for. I think there's also going to be
some situations internally that they have tohandle, particularly with fringe players on the
roster. Don't want to spend toomuch time talking about the Usman Garuba and

(56:47):
Josh Kostroverts of the world. Ithink they would upload them for a decent
second round pick if they could,or simply because of the roster log jam
all the young players and then you'resigning these veterancies we were talking about.
But I do think you're gonna haveto trade one of kJ Martin or j
shoun Tate. The bottom line isKj's got a decision on his option that
has to be made Thursday. Eitheryou bring him back on his current deal

(57:09):
and he'll be undrestricted a year fromnow in twenty twenty four free agency,
or you do as you do aj Shon Tate a year ago. You
turn it down and make him restrictedthis summer and perhaps leverage him into a
deal between the restricted status and givinghim a payday a year earlier into friendlier
terms over the long haul. Really, at this point, I think it's
less about the terms and it's moreabout just which one the Rockets see more

(57:30):
as in their long term future becausereality is, look j shoun Tait is
on a friendly deal. Even ifyou keep kJ martin, reality is you're
gonna have to give him a dealat least at Tate's level, if not
more than that, by a yearfrom now at the latest. So either
way, you're going to have aguy in that salary slot that can play
the three or the four. Andyet you already have Jabari Smith Junior and

(57:52):
Tari Easton at those positions. Youjust drafted Kim Whitmore. You're going to
sign someone, probably Dylan Brooks,to give you more of a defensive wing,
presidence and free agency, and whoknows. We saw one report from
that King's wogger that Calcuzma could stillbe in play for the Rockets. The
bottom line is the forward spots aregoing to be occupied in a hurry,
and so with those guys being moremarginal types, I don't know which it's

(58:15):
going to be, although there doesseem to be more traction around the kJ
trade just reading the tea leaves.That's what Jake Fisher reported today. But
I think that by the end ofthis weekend at the latest, and maybe
you do need to trade j schownTate. You know, a slide factor
is that you could open up abit more cap room this summer if you're
in a pinch by dealing Tate.But even if they don't need the cap
room for reasons that go beyond justhow much money you spend in twenty twenty

(58:37):
through free agency, I think oneof those guys gets traded the next few
days to resolve that log jam.I think, aside from everything they do
with free agency and trades, that'ssomething that in terms of just internal roster
management, I would be very surprisedif we're talking a week from now and
both of those guys kJ Martin andJ schoon Tate are on the roster.
Right. Yeah, I actually thinkthat both of them are gone, Maria,

(58:58):
Yeah, they both I think.I think I don't think it's twice
at this point. I think it'syou're bringing in yeah, if not Ylan
Brooks are going to bring in someonethat plays the same position. I don't
think Dylan Brooks going to play shootingGarthire like demanth Is, purely because there's
given reading, there's Kevin portcluting,there's Amen Thompson, and there's whatever point
card that they're going to bring inthe one in the two our field,

(59:21):
Um, you're not going to runmore than a nine or ten man rotation,
which means you're going to let's no, let's look at it an optimistic
but let's say it's ten main rotation. You have to you have to small
forwards into power for slip Art Smith'sgoing to play it, our Reason's going
to play. Whoever they bring in, call it Hylan Brooks is going to
play. And so for the lastspot, most I would bet that there's

(59:43):
no last spot, that there's goingto be a nine main rotation and it's
going to just to be Oppern Singerand whatever senor they bring in. But
then even if there is, Iwould be pretty confident in saying that KEM
with more and this this may bea hotache, but KEM with more year
one will be if not just asgood or better close enough to what Kaylee

(01:00:05):
Martin brings you to warrant that playingtime just because he's just as in as
instinct you'll look or as kJ Martinis just an athletic, he's a better
shooter, and most important of all, if we're clutching to Kaylee Martin by
what he did last season. He'sa better de feather as well, and
so taking all of that into consideration, I think both Date and KK are

(01:00:30):
going to are going to just begone unless either of them is happy not
not having a rotational spot for mostof the season, or unless injuries happen,
which leads me to the actual focalpoint, which is what's going to
happen in the next twenty four hours, the decision about Katie Martin, whether
to pick up this option or not. I don't know if you if you've
heard anything concrete, but if Iwere making the choice, my conversation with

(01:00:54):
k would be just this, Hey, what are you looking for it in
an extension? And I'll see ifit's under ten million and you're okay with
not being guaranteed minutes next season,and you just come in and you get
your money. Right, we'll payyou your money, but you just come
in in case there's an injury,or in case someone's playing so poorly that

(01:01:16):
you just can't keep them on thereddition anymore. We hope that's not the
case. If he's okay with thoseterms, I would extend them. I
would make him a free agent andextended if not. I think in ninety
five percent of scenarios, you takethe take the play the team option,
and you trade them because taking theteam option makes it so you can trade

(01:01:37):
them right away. If not,if you extend them, you're going to
have to you have going to haveto wait to wait six months to trade
them. Yea. And not onlythat, he's going you're going to have
to trade them at his new sowurwe versus his current sour which is just
one point nine million, which makesa difference because I think right now not
normally is young and has some appealto a younger team. The fact that

(01:01:59):
he's only made one point time milliona year and he's already a capable rotational
piece for a good team if ifhe were placed in one makes it so
the fact that he's only making thatlittle money is really valuable, not it's
really valuable from a team planning standpoint, or if he's read during free agency,
because a team a contender may tradetheir current backup mid level exceptional level

(01:02:22):
which is ten million a year,level power forward or small forward and say,
hey, we'll reallocate these resources togo get a guard or a big
but will trade for Kla market andhe's making so little money the offset,
which is about eight million, wecan spend on a point guard or a
big or a shooting guard whatever,And so that it makes sense from from
from that perspective. And also ifyou, if you even if you pick

(01:02:45):
up this option and it take himinto the season, then when crossers are
already built, whatever demons, tradingfor them only needs to give up a
minimum guide trade for them, whichmeans you can convert his value into draft
picks a lot easy more easily becausethe other team doesn't have to be worrying
about if he's making ten millionaire.The other team has to into the calculus,

(01:03:06):
goes the draft asset that that Rocketswon't plus what I'm losing by giving
up a play that's making ten million, and that's going to that's going to
limit your market a lot. Andso for me, it's ninety five percent
of scenarios it should pick up cagesoften an option and look to trade him
if he's okay not playing, whichhighly doubted he is, but maybe maybe

(01:03:27):
he only wants to play to gethis extended And if he gets this extent,
and he's fine, if that's thecase, and he wants to extend
him to be under or around orunder ten million dollars a year. Then
at that point, I would,you know, making much restrue the free
agent And as they did say,it's get a friendly to deal out of
it, because as long as hedoesn't make too much noise in the locker

(01:03:47):
room because he's not playing. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I
think you pick up the option andtrade him. That's the highly likely scenario.
And then yeah, you have enoughtapped to the forward spots, especially
with who you're likely to sign thatif you're in a position that you need
more salary cap room, then takesa guy who I don't think is particularly
essential long term to the puzzle.You could easily trade both of them,

(01:04:08):
and I don't think Emay Judoka wouldbe in a pinch at all when it
comes to filling out his rotation thenext couple of years. So my guess
is that kJ is very likely tomove for the reasons that you just outlined.
He should be a decent asset onthe market. And beyond that,
it takes definitely a candidate as well, and some of that, of course,
is going to depend on exactly whosays yes, and how much money
they need this weekend once free agencyopens. Anyway, with that, we'll

(01:04:31):
put a bow on this episode forPaulo. I'm Ben. If you want
more content before our next show,the best place to get it is on
Twitter. I'm on their at BenDubos is on there at Palo Alves,
NBA. And of course we'll havereaction shows once newsleaks this weekend and early
next week in free agency, justas we did after the draft, but
of course it'll take us a littlebit of time to set those up,

(01:04:53):
edit the episodes, all that goodstuff. So if you want real climon
for the best place to get it, of course is on social media,
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and hit up that link tree andour bio because that's got the links to

(01:05:14):
certainly, Rocketswire also supports Talk sevenninety friend of this program, Fecial flagship
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(01:05:40):
and partners. With the plugs complete, I'll wrap up for Paolo.
I'm Ben. Thanks as always toyou guys for listening, and please come
back soon for another new episode ofThe Logger Line, Happy Free Agency.