Houston’s path forward without Kevin Porter Jr.

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Cheers, Rockets fans, Welcome tothe lagger Line, an exclusive podcast from
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Red Nation, get ready to getready, Get Ready. The lagger
Line starts now. Welcome on board, Ben Dubos here, Powlo, Olve's
there, Welcome back to another episodeof the logger Line, served to you

(00:44):
courtesy of Clutch City Lagger of CarbackBrewing. This is the show where we
talk all things Houston Rockets basketball.Of course, I'm your host, Ben.
I'm the editor of USA Today's RocketsWire and a contributor to Sports Talk
seven ninety, the official flagship radiostation of the team. Back with us
is our usual co host and producer, Paolo Alves out of Portugal. You
can follow him on Twitter slash ExitPalo Alves NBA, me on there simply

(01:08):
at Ben Dubos. We had acouple of mini episodes last week without Paulo,
who was dealing with a few personalissues, but he's back for the
first time since the end of Augustand Pollo. The last time we recorded
it was two weeks ago, andwe actually thought we'd be scrambling for content
in September because usually that's the deadperiod on the NBA calendar leading up to

(01:30):
training camp. Players and staffers areon the league or going on vacation,
not doing a whole lot. Yeah, it's not a dead period for the
use in rockets. There's there's alot that's happened since we last talked,
right, Yeah, And it's notexactly for a positive reason either, So
it's I mean, I mean,we I didn't see it coming, right,

(01:52):
But at the same time, it'sit's always surprising that it's something that
bad, obviously, but it's notsurprising that something happened, And I mean
we knew there was a risk,Yeah, and for you know, just
from the rockets perspective. Obviously,I didn't get a chem to talk about
this from from just the human perspective, and now that kind of that that's

(02:16):
never lost, but it's kind ofpeople are really talking about that anymore.
But yeah, that in terms ofjust the overall impact. For those who
want more perspective on that, youcan check out our archives. I had
an immediate reaction show the day welearned of it. On Monday, September
eleventh, and then later in theweek, once news broke of potential trade

(02:42):
possibilities, I did a show reactingto that as well, and why I
honestly don't think it's unethical to tradehim as long as he doesn't play in
the NBA, be it for theRockets or someone else, and hopefully he
doesn't make any money, assuming hedid what he's accused of doing, and
there seems to be at least someevidence, but ultimately that's up to the
NBA as far as voiding his contract, not the Rockets, but to me,

(03:05):
as long as he doesn't play andhopefully doesn't receive money or at least
less money than ultimately, I thinkthat's all that matters in terms of the
ethics of the situation and the mechanismof removing him from the roster, be
it a trade or waving. Tome, that doesn't really matter, and
we will talk about some of thetrade possibilities on today's show. I was
trying to stall on that a bituntil we had Palalo on again. But

(03:28):
yeah, just to I guess underscorethe point you were making. It's not
so much that we're downplaying the sensitivityof it. It's to me, that's
what the immediate reaction was. ForAgain, we have two episodes in our
archives going into those themes, andnow today we want to spend it a
bit more forward in terms of talkingabout the basketball impacts, the team building
aspects, and anything it may sayabout the Rockets under the past three years

(03:51):
of rafel Stone as GM. Yeah, and that's what I was going to
get to, which is timing wise, it's kind of both good and bad.
If it were earlier in the offseason, Rockets could have planned accordingly.
If it were later on, itwould have been even harder because once teams
start playing, you know, it'sit's even harder. I think the most

(04:14):
important thing to take away from itfrom a Rockets perspective is listen, I
don't think it's an ethical for theRockets to trade them. Just because he's
going to get his contract doesn't changebecause the Rockets trade them. The Rockets
are just trading him because they need. You know, the Rockets were an
under the gap team or they workedas as as a as a space team

(04:39):
for this for this yere right,So their payroll is not amongst the lowest
in the league, but they didn'tget a chance to bloat it up to
close to the to the starry,to the luxury tax, which is what
they've been at during the reveal,and what usually teams are at to maximize,
you know, all the flexibility thatthey have. And so because of

(05:00):
that, the sixteen million, thatapproximately sixteen million that KPK is making become
a lot more relevant because there area larger they are a larger percentage of
the cap and they would be ifthe Rockets had their salary at you know,
the level that I just mentioned.And so for rofel Stone, it's
also kind of a tuetted sword whereor a double edged sword, because well,

(05:23):
how if the season goes badly,right, the KPKA stuff is not
going to be an excuse if ifit comes to firing him, Right,
if the season is a failure,he's going to get fired, and it's
not going to be an excuse thatthe KPICLA stuff happened at the time that
he couldn't really deal with it.Absolutely. L Stone was the one who

(05:46):
brought in Kevin Porter Junior in thefirst place. So if that risk ends
up to rail in the Rockets ina significant way, yeah, he can't
blame that. That's absolutely a fairobservation, right, and and and but
I was, I was even startingat the point where, you know,
before the discards shifted to him beingthe one that kept KPK here for so
long. Even if if, ifthat weren't the case, this likely isn't

(06:11):
enough to give him a year orto give them the year for free,
right if things go wrong, andso he can't use the kp cast as
an excuse. If so, hehas to make a move, because if
the team plays badly and a KPKtrade or a player that comes with the

(06:32):
kpla trade on multiple players makes somewhatof a difference. We're talking about the
team that's going to be fighting forthe play and it's likely going to be
you know, a couple of gamesdifference. I mean, optimistically they'll be
within a couple of games, andone player making sixteen million dollars a year
over the course of eighty two ofan eighty two game season may shift one

(06:55):
or two wins to either side.And it may be the difference between team
making the play in and him widelykeeping his job, or the team not
making the player. So from Rocketsperspective, they have to do something because
even though this sucks, people's careersare on the line, and so it's
it's a tough balance to strike andunderstand why they're doing it. And to
me, as long as as longas KPK is not getting it's not benefiting

(07:18):
from it. Like like a lotof people seem to mention that, oh,
who whould take the pr head oftraining for KPL. I don't even
thing the PR hit would be thatbig at all. I mean, it's
just you get to be the teamthat waived, right. ANYPR hit that
would be taken would be the rocketsfor you know, accommodating him for so
long. It would never be inthat's trading for him because everybody knows it's

(07:41):
widespread and with the way media worksnowadays, the team could easily put out
a statement saying, hey, wetrade the forum, but we plan immediately
to waive him. There was noconsideration to him as a player. It
was just a financial move, right. So I think some team may still
be wary of trading for him,But I don't think it's as big of

(08:03):
a deal as a lot of peopleare making it out to be. You
know, it's social media reactionary stuff. It happens all the time. At
the end. At the same time, there's been precedent things not as bad
as what KP he did, Butwell, there was the Jabari Bird situation,
which is almost perfect apples to apples. Oh right, yeah, but
but it was so it was alower profile. Yeah, it was a

(08:26):
profile just saying the severity was similarin terms of it being a really awful,
violent thing. But yeah, yourpoint as well, take it.
It did not register on the nationalscale to the extent that this kid.
Yeah, so basically there's been There'sobviously an Scanner who was not in the
league. He obviously didn't do anythingto the scale with who was not in

(08:46):
the league at the time got traded. Anyways, there was Myers Leonard from
the Heat who was suspended, tradedby the Heat to the Thunder, and
the Thunder then proceeded to waive himlike this. This has happened before with
players that are basically out of theleague for one reason or another that it's
not basketball related, and they gettraded because the teams that have them previously

(09:11):
are in a position where they reallycan't afford to have that salary. You
know chunk go to waste by waivinghim, So shifting a little bit of
the conversation, I think what weshould be looking for, or what the
Rockers will be looking for, isfor a team that either has a player

(09:33):
that has a contract that you know, whose length goes beyond this year,
which is what KPJ has guaranteed.He has one million nig here. That's
pretty minimal. Either team that hasa contract like that that's looking to you
know, not have that commitment goingforward, or a team that really doesn't

(09:56):
care about what they do this year, and so because of that, they're
willing to trade kPa four KPKA andwave him because they don't mind having that
link of salary allocated to a guythat's that's just that he's going to be
that capital one with you waive himand is doing it for whatever draft competitions
attached to it. And I know, I know, I know. Further

(10:18):
along this this episode, I'll getinto a little bit of what I think
is adequate, what I think isadequate salary compensation, and at which point
I would just say, hey,it's not worth it and just take the
hit that KPLA is not here andgive them minutes to amend and kem with
more, which I think are probablythe guys that spend the most to gain

(10:41):
as far as opportunity goes going forwardin the rotation. Yeah, I'll say
as far as the trade parameters,we can lead off with that. Sean
Shania of The Athletic, one ofthe two or three biggest newsbreakers in the
game, has reported that the Rocketsare trying to attach a number of second
round picks. Im okay with that, because generally speaking one number one the

(11:01):
Rockets to still have a slight surplusof second round picks even after the controversial
Usman Garuba and Ti Ti Washington trade. We'll talk about that a little bit,
because there is a KPJ connection there, at least theoretically there is one.
But even after that, there's stilla surplus, and that's part of
their motivation for doing so. Theyfelt like they had a huge surplus.
And beyond that, it's honestly notthat difficult to recoup second round picks,

(11:26):
even if you do use a fewfor a deal like this, and we've
seen, we've seen an increasing amountthe last few years, the sort of
stacking second round picks three or fourtogether for one role player to a rotation
type who isn't good enough to geta first and one reason why I'm okay
with it. It's honestly not thatdifficult to replenish be it. You know,

(11:46):
first off, if you scout welland have your pick of the undrafted
free agent guys, then you canperhaps get the same value in that capacity.
But beyond that, there's teams thatare selling second round picks every year.
You can get second round picks fortaking on assets or sending cash to
teams that are in a bad spotwith the luxury tax. There's ways you

(12:07):
can replenish that. To me,where I draw the line, and it
sounds like the Rockets have as well. I would not attach a first round
pick. It's not just because ofthe value, because sure you could theoretically
protect a first round pick and certainlymake the argument from a value perspective that
just look at Usband Gruba and tyTy Washington and Josh Christopher. A lot

(12:28):
of picks in the twenties don't workout anyway, So why is it that
big of a deal to give upone of those? And especially in the
scenario where you're giving up three orfour second round pick. And the answer
is the Stepian rule, because withthis window kicking in where Houston's assets are
most likely going to Oklahoma City,now they're offset by the unprotected picks going

(12:50):
from Brooklyn to the Rockets. Butbasically the next seven years, you have
one first round pick. In nearlyall of those years, you aren't doubling
up because again, in most ofthe years that you have something coming from
Brooklyn, you're likely losing yours toOklahoma City, or it's a swap year,
not a year that you have two. So because of that, if
you give up a future first roundpick, then not only does it take

(13:13):
that out of bounds for a potentialsuperstar trade down the line. We did
a Joel and Beat episode last monthabout that hypothetical, but it also takes
picks in the year surrounding that potentiallyout of bounds because you can't be without
a first round pick in consecutive futuredrafts. So when you're in a situation

(13:33):
like the Rockets and you don't havethe ability to double up in a given
year on first round draft picks,then you have to be really careful when
you give out a future first roundpick. And so it sounds like that's
where they've drawn the line, andI'm okay with that. It's not so
much about value, because yeah,pick in the twenties, if you could
theoretically send out a protected future firstit's not super valuable. But at this

(13:56):
end of the day, it's notjust about that. It's about the Steppian
role and having full flexibility to makebig time trade offers for superstars down the
line. And so if it comesto a situation where no one is willing
to take Kevin Porter Jr. Becauseof the pr whatever it may be,
without a first run pick, thenat some point you do just have to
walk away and say, you knowwhat, we're just gonna eat the contract.

(14:16):
We're going to wave him, andmaybe the NBA just ends up avoiding
all or part of it down theline. Hope for the best, but
just sort of take the cash savingsand you know, except that it's just
not worth it to trade. Butif you can trade it without attaching a
first round pick, for me,that's the line, and it sounds like
the Rockets do that as the lineas well, then yeah, I would
do it, because I don't thinkthe second run picks are all that impactful

(14:37):
in the grand scheme. I thinkyou can recoup a lot of that value
if you're smart with your asset management. If you will and in this case,
look it can serve multiple purposes.You hit the nail on the head
Palle. I mean, you needthat Kevin Porter junior salary slot. They
have the two human trade exception guys, JACQ Landale and Jeff Green, but
that's only about twenty million. Youneed a bit more salary. It's not

(15:00):
a big commitment to the other team. But at the same time, isn't
indispensable to your formula for success becauseyou don't want to subtract so much from
your team that you're making the teamless desirable to the superstar who is considering
you in the first place, probablybecause you have a lot of young talent
already in place. So that's wherethat salary slot, even if it's not
KPJ. Someone in a mid tiersalary ten to fifteen million dollars a year.

(15:24):
If you could add that to thehuman TPE guys, then that's really
useful because you can get to apretty high figure already without having to significantly
detract from your current team. Andagain, you want to keep as much
of your current team together as youcan, because you want to be attractive
to that guy and be able towin if and when you make that type
of big move. So the salaryslot is important. And then just from

(15:46):
a basketball standpoint, the three pointshooting is a big deal. Look,
a lot of people have rightfully pointedout Kevin Porter Junior's deficiencies at a point
guard in the last couple of years, but he was one of the best
catch and shoot guys in the entireend. This is a guy who could
shoot in the mid to high thirtieson high volume, and he was getting
more efficient over the last basically fourmonths of last season. His true shooting

(16:08):
percentage was nearly sixty that's something onthe second unit. And again, even
before this, I don't think KevinPorter Junior was likely to start. I
think it was always good to beFred Vanfleet, Jalen Green, Dylan Brooks,
Jabari Smith Junior and all Prens Chingoon. Guess a small possibility that Tary
outplays Jabari, but I think that'sless likely after summerly, So when you

(16:29):
look at KPJ's expected role, thatshooting off the bench in particular is really
important because we know Aman Thompson isn'ta shooter, at least not yet.
Jay Shawn Tate is not a shooter. Tary Eason was a bit better as
a shooter than expected, but there'sstill some questions as to how sustainable it
is and how much you can scaleit up in terms of volume. So

(16:51):
Kevin Porter Junior was going to bevery useful to that second unit to really
provide some floor balance, so beyondthe salary slot, which is important in
the grand scheme to have trade fellerto give you more options down the line.
Would reported this week that the nextyou know, nine to twelve months,
the feeling around the NBA is thatmultiple elite players could be on the

(17:14):
trade market, pointing to Embid,who we've discussed. Be honest, even
according to a few recent reports,isn't fully locked in as far as his
future with Milwaukee in one hundred percentwanting to be there. There's all sorts
of possibilities that might be coming downthe pike that you want to leave yourself
open to, and so the contractis part of it. But then the
basketball to short charm in a seasonwhere the Rockets, for a lot of
reasons as you laid out, wantto take a step forward, then yeah,

(17:37):
the three point shooting is an importantvariable as well. So you know
the names that I think you know. I mentioned Landry Shammutt of the Wizards.
To me, that's ideal because thatonly is he making about ten million
dollars this season, but he alsohas a couple of non guaranteed slash team
options for the subsequent years. Soin some ways, it's like a slightly
smaller version of the contract you justadd with Kevin Porter Junior, and he

(18:02):
for his career, Shammitt shoots abovenearly thirty nine percent from three point range,
so you can really space the floorand provide some of what you're losing
in terms of the floor spacing fromKevin Porter Junior. Another name I've seen
thrown out there is Alec Burks ofthe Pistons. He's on an expiring ten
million dollars deal, but who knowsyou would have his bird rights in this

(18:23):
scenario, And as far as thebasketball merits, he's a guy who's a
movement shooter. He's shot about thirtyeight percent from three for his career.
So those are guys that have stoodout to me as logical targets. Sham's
reported today that Indiana could be lookingto move Buddy Healed, who is in
that same salary ballpark again with Kevinat about fifteen million, anything between ten

(18:45):
and twenty is potentially doable. You'rein the ballpark to where it wouldn't take
a ton of extra maneuvering either direction. And you know you're not going to
get Healed for Kevin Porter Junior becauseKevin's a negative asset, considering he's basically
at the league at the point andit's a sunk cost. Maybe the NBA
ands up avoiding some or all thedeal, but it's not a positive asset

(19:06):
by any stretch of the imagination.He's done, assuming the allegations are even
close to true, which to thispoint there seems to be a lot of
evidence that they are. So youknow, he'll then some then wouldn't be
Kevin Porter Junior. You'd be usingit to match and then you'd have to
trade, you know, future pickassets. Maybe Jay Shawn take could have
a roll with the Pacers, whocould use a little bit more defense in
their front court. There's lots ofpaths you could potentially explore there. I

(19:30):
think he'll would obviously be a bitpricier in terms of the asset costs than
a sham It or a burst,but at the end of the day,
it's still the same, you know, sort of shooting mold. So for
me, it's just sort of likethere's two boxes you want to check.
You want to replace the movement shootingfor that second unit in terms of basketball,
and then ideally you want to replacethe salary slot as well. And

(19:52):
you know, maybe it's a multiyear deal, maybe it's like Shammitt where
you have some team options attached.But even if it's an expiring deal,
then that's because you would have thebird rights on that player and you can
at least have some control over whatyou do with that salary slot. Or
maybe you could trade them again atthe deadline in exchange for a player with
a contract for the next year thatyou know the team at that point is
trying to pivot and going to tankmode create more salary cap space for the

(20:17):
off season. The point is you'dhave future options. So to me,
at the combination of the movement shootingand the trade filler salary, that's what
they're looking for. I would notgive up a first run pick to make
that happen, because I think that'sjust too valuable in terms of what you
could do down the line and superstartrade offers and the Steppian rule. If
you trade a first run pick,it puts you in a really tough spot,
since the Rockets don't have any doubleup years moving forward, at least

(20:41):
that guaranteed. I know there's somelight protections on the picks to Oklahoma City,
but hopefully those don't convey, becausethe Rockets don't want to be among
the four worst teams in the NBA. Get well, I guess you don't
want to say hopefully, because maybethey missed the playoffs barely, they lose
in the Plan Tournament, and thenthey defy the odds and get it's not
poor pick through the lottery. Certainlywon't turn that down. But the idea
is that you're not trying to bebad. So those picks probably are going

(21:03):
to head to Oklahoma City, andyou don't want to bank on those picks
conveying. And even if that theoreticallyhappens, that doesn't save you from the
Steppian roule. So the bottom lineis, shamm It Burkes those jump out
to me as potential possibilities that makessense. Healed is something that to a
point I would explore, although I'dbe hesitant again to give up first round
assets for the same reason. Youhave to balance that against what you can

(21:26):
do for superstars down the line.Those are three names that have resonated with
me. Powel any thoughts on thoseor anyone else you want to potentially add
to the mix. Yeah, Ithink he'll the report came mouth day.
It definitely makes a lot of senseto play that six men role, to
play next to man Thoms and itmakes it just makes the much sense.
The only thing is the type ofteam. Like, I don't think the

(21:48):
basers are trying to be bad,right, and so I think the more
most of the value that the Roketswill be giving up will be through second
round picks, and I think theplaces with value I don't know. I
think for the passers, it wouldmake sense to make a trade with Dallas,
for example, for Timardo Junior,who's a slightly worst player. He's
a year older, but he cando a lot of the same stuff and

(22:11):
he is on a keeper contract forone more year. Because it seems that
that pays up at least according tothe report, it seems like that the
Pacers were trying to extend a contractwith but they healed and they just couldn't
reach an agreement. Then Timarlo Ecuniergives them one extra year to make that
decision, and the Pacers are usuallycontent with being somewhat mediocre, and Timarli

(22:32):
Luniers kind of like them all theplayer. That being said, I'd also
like to mention that in terms ofwhat I'm willing to give up in trade,
think it makes sense. Just likeyou've said up until the moment you
have to give up a first roundpick, it makes sense if you need
to give up a Firson round pickvery few players in the lead, I'll
be able to help upp okay doingit for And as far as the protections,

(22:53):
it talked about the stepping rule,and as just wanted to add on
top of what you've already said thatI think the picks and Rockets have right
now, they're all too valuable totrade in a in a scenario like this,
the Brooklyn picks fi upside the Rocket'sown picks. I mean, we
don't the Rocks haven't been good yetfor us to start worrying about reading our

(23:14):
own picks again unless it's for asuperstar. And the alternative to that is
to trade a pick and then protectit. Even if it's a Brooklyn pick,
you can protect it and you knowhave the top, I don't know
what we're protected and if it wasin the water, it comes back to
the rockets even though it's broken spick. The problem with that is that protecting
a pick makes it makes it sothe impact via the Stepian rule lingers much

(23:37):
longer if it's if it's a pickthat's protected for the first year and then
becomes unprotected, that's three years thatare now entangled in the in the Stepian
rules. So the year of thepicks protected them, potentially the year after
because you can make a trade andrisk not having something to give up to
the team that you know didn't geta protected pick in the first place,
and the year after because if thepig the pick does not convey and becomes

(24:03):
second and it's convinced the second yearand projective, then in the third year
you need to have a pick tomake up for the second rule. So
if once you get into protections,it becomes harder to make a deal and
you need protections in order for thepig first round pick to be you know,
guarantee to be a late first roundpick, as you said, So

(24:26):
getting that out of the way,I think, as I said, as
we as I said before, weneed to target teams that are either they
don't have aspirations this year or arelooking for sell for capital leaf and this
early on. Yeah, Washington andDetroit, certainly Washington, maybe Detroit fits,
So that's another part for Shamaton Bergsfor sure. And I think you

(24:48):
know, there's basically at this pointthere's basically no teams looking for Sellery gap
Leaf because the season hasn't started yet. Two teams have been disappointed. No
teams are going you know, mostteams had a plan going into the off
season. They won't be over thesalary level they want to be at at
this point. They'll likely adjust overthe course of the season like they always
do. I think there's potential withthe Trailblazers if a little trade does materialize

(25:12):
and they shift into a rebuild,although there's not many shooter types, which
I agree would be what the Rocketsare targeting, or at least guard types
on that team unless they wanted to. I don't think they could because it
just signed, but they wanted totrade for someone like like Jeremy Grant who
just got over played by a massiveamount, and once if they trade a

(25:34):
little, that contract makes even lesssense. If Rocus who wanted to take
a shout at that, which hopefullythey don't, that could make sense because
that's a thing that is not tryingto rebuild right now, but could be
forced into it if things spend outa certain way. But I think the
main team to look at is theWizards, and you already mentioned Shamat,
who is obviously my first target aswell. I would be interested in.

(25:56):
You know, this is going togo back to my wish of having a
protecting center. I'll be interested inGafford, even though he plays a different
position, just because I think he'sgood and he's on a team friendly deal,
and you know, he offers somethingat Rockets don't currently have. I'm
not sure if if jack Landell wasgoing to be doing to provide it to
them, which is just a typicalwe can roll rebounding rim, protecting big.

(26:21):
There's obviously still tighest Jones there.And another thing that's worth pointing out,
which could just get resolved by wavingplayers, but I think it's unlikely
that it will be as the Wizards, I think, are currently at seventeen
players. They just signed I forgethis name. The Veta was with them,
next that Theips gloves. That givesit. They're at seventeen guys and

(26:45):
I'm looking at the list and mostof them are either young players or guys
that have a place in this leaguethat they would likely have to move.
So I think they'll be trading.I don't think they'll be waving. And
there's any guy here. If therewas a guy to be waved out,
say started Giftson, but they justsigned them, so it's unlikely that he
is him. By the way,Yeah, fair enough. So other than

(27:11):
that's just a bunch a rookie contractson just stick around picks that they got
signed to. The think, especiallywith them the two big mammouth contracts that
they have in Jordan Pool and CalKuzma. So I think Tis Jones,
Daniel Gafford. Oh, even theloan right or the Nile Gallanery could be
ojective if we wanted to do atwo for one, which we do have
the roster spot to do so.I believe those are who are looking at

(27:33):
for the Wizards because they have noaspirations with this roster. Let's be honest.
They fired that, they switched tmsare going into a rebuild. Everybody
knows this. They blew it up. They traded Bradley build, they traded
porsingis so and then other than that, I think a couple of other names
I think are worth looking at isDoug Doug Mutt with the Spurs, Reggie

(27:56):
Bullock who went there from Dallas andI don't quite remember the trade, but
he was just basically filler. Idon't they dread it for him, and
the bounte A. Graham, whichwho I think came from the Pelicans in
a similar situation. All three ofthem are good shooters at different positions,
could fit somewhat of a role,you know. The fact that I mean

(28:17):
Thompson can play multiple positions defensively makesit so drugs are more fersatile in the
position they target for their shooting.I'm not sure if the if the Spurts
are trying to be good this year, I think it will heavily rely on
the file and how good is Wembyand they could shift very quickly and then
the last guyoud mentioned And people arenot going to like this example, but

(28:38):
it could make sense. Duncan Robinsonis no longer a five year or a
six year contract. He's a threeyear contract. Now it's eighteen, nineteen
twenty. It's still not pretty.He's still not worth that kind of money,
but that kind of money is lessnow than it was back when his
contractors were signed. And we knowthat at Miami is trying to trade for

(29:02):
Damian Lillard, and if Duncan Robinsonis a part of that deal, I
think it's fairly likely that the teamthat the Plazers don't want anything to do
with that contract. And it couldmake sense as a you know, I
mean, Duncan Robinson might be aguy that you actually get a second round
pick with instead of giving one upwith KPJ. Right, because in this

(29:26):
scenario, I think the fact thathe still has this much of his contract
left is a pretty good, youknow, incentive to taking on KPJ and
just waiving him. If you area team like the Plazer who would be
then moving into a rebuild, right, they wouldn't care if they would just
get the flexibility instantly. So yeah, the last thing I would mention is
when giving a pix of second roundpicks, which is what I'm assuming we'll

(29:48):
be giving up. I would reallylike it if they try to give up
second round picks this year, becausewe have three of them. We're not
going to make three seconds round picks. And it's not it's basically, unless
you're starting off a real it's neverworthy to make three sec round picks because
it will likely get similar value justby giving contracts to and draft the free

(30:11):
agent saying, and your roster isfairly deep with young players already. Yeah,
so if even without Christopher's Eyes Eyeand Garuba, you know, there's
a reason those guys hit waivers andRockets didn't go back after them, and
they wanted to fill out the rosterwith vets like Boban who would just go
pas. I don't know if youmentioned this in any of the past two

(30:33):
parts. I don't think he didbecause it was very recent. So it's
unlikely that they'll make those three picks. And once draft day comes, unless
someone's falling, and unless you getreally lucky and someone calls you, you
likely have to just take a guy. And there's multiple examples of teams just
taking a guy and then not evenhaving the roster spot for them and having
to sign them to two way contractsand things and in situations like that.

(30:57):
So I'd be looking out if Rocketswent for a lad right now. Yes,
it would be because what happened toKPK happened, But the fact that
they have to be sat around pisif he could also be an incentive for
them to make a move versus juststanding pattern and you know, waving KPKA.

(31:17):
One point I want to throw inquickly before we transition to the rest
of the current team, and thisKevin Porter Junior inevitable departure news. Maybe
it happens this week, maybe itdrags out until closer to the opening of
training camp in October, because it'sa deadline driven league and for a lot
of these roster decisions elsewhere, itmay take into closer to training camp to
prompt them to actually make a decisionand act, because that's the real deadline.

(31:41):
You don't want to take a playerto media day to training camp who
you're not ultimately going to have orat least are likely to have on your
roster moving forwards. Just a wasteof resources. It's awkward, So that's
a deadline. Maybe something happens soonerrather than later. I'm sure the Rockets
would love for it to happen immediately. It's just a matter of whether you
can incentivize the other team to doso. And when we're talking about a

(32:04):
situation like Kevin Porter Junior, whichis obviously so uncomfortable, it may take
a little bit of deadline pressure tomove someone over the finish line. The
one point I want to throw in, and this ties in with your examples
of Doug McDermott and Duncan Robinson.As far as the pr angle, my
position, I said it earlier onthis show. I said it on our
last show. I really don't thinkit's a huge pr hit for the team

(32:29):
trading for Kevin Porter Junior, aslong as they waive him immediately, if
they're not trying to play him,If they immediately waive him as a condition
of the trade, and he doesn'tget anything as far as playing time exposure
from them. As far as theguaranteed money, I mean, hopefully it
doesn't get any of it. Ifthis proves to be true, the NBA
can avoid the deal altogether. Butregardless, that's coming to him no matter

(32:52):
what, that's under the terms ofhis contract that he already has. That's
not the other team that's choosing togive him that money. That's already done.
Decision the rockets made, which willget into shortly. I will say
that while I that's my guess asto the way this market plays out,
and I think that's the way itshould play out. Look, this is

(33:13):
a sensitive issue and some teams maytake a different stance. Some teams may
say, you know what, ifthere's even a five percent chance of an
avalanche of bad pr from us doingthis, it's not worth it, especially
if the upside is only a fewsecond round picks. I don't think that's
going to happen. I think therewill be a market, but you never
know. It's absolutely a possibility,and that may drive a few teams out

(33:37):
of the market. I hope itdoesn't gun into my head. I don't
think it does, but you can'trule it out. In that scenario,
teams like the Spurs and the Heat, who have an organization that has a
lot of trust equity amongst NBA mediaand fans, in my opinion, would
be more confident and likely to stilldo the deal if they see basketball slash

(34:01):
asset value to them we're doing so. And I know this first did have
the Josh premost situation, but bylarge it's still the head coach GM owner
that won all those titles. They'rewell respected organizationally, certainly the heat with
pat Riley, They're one of thebest run organizations in the game. I

(34:22):
think those are the teams that ifthe Rockets are in a tight spot,
might still do it, because ultimately, I think people are going to give
those organizations the benefit of the doubtwhen it comes to questionable pr and the
way that some organizations, including theRockets, because you know, rafel Stone
has yet to build a winner andhe's only been on the job since late
twenty twenty. Tilman for Tita tookover at the end, he did have

(34:44):
a couple of attending teams but didn'twin a ring and then immediately went into
a rebuild. Wasn't really his fault, but at the end of the day,
it's not like Tilman Fortita as aproven owner in terms of building a
consistent winner. So that's why theRockets don't get it benefited out with a
lot of these sort of culture narrativesbecause the guys to the top of the
food chain for the Rockets organizationally haven'tproven it before this year, Stephen Silas

(35:07):
was a first time head coach.There's a bit more credibility down with Emaujokol,
though he has a bit of baggageas well. So organizations like the
Rockets and there's a few others doget judged a bit more harshly because there's
not that proven figure of authority thatpeople point to like Greg Popovitch or pat
Riley and say that guy won't letit get too bad. That guy deserves

(35:30):
the benefit of the doubt. Andso in a scenario where maybe some other
young teams that don't have an establishedculture, like the Wizards or Pistons,
are perhaps a bit more reluctant toget into the KPJ talks, then it's
good to have backup plans from moreestablished teams because I do think that could
help a little bit on the prfront. I think those teams might be

(35:52):
more likely to take the risk becausethey know the fallout would not be as
bad. They typically get the benefitof the doubt. Now, as far
as the basketball impacts. We talkedabout what the Rockets need from a trade
in terms of replacing the shooting ofKevin Porter Junior, because even if he's
at the point guard anymore, evenif those skills aren't that important, look,
you do need shooting, and hewas one of the best catch and

(36:13):
shoot guys in the NBA at volumethe last couple of years. So it
is going to be lost. TheRockets do want to win more games,
but let's not minimize it. Therewere risk factors going in beyond some off
court incident like what ultimately transpired.And there's also the question of after being
the starting point guard for two plusyears, was Kevin Porter Junior going to

(36:35):
go quietly into the night and accepta six man role. Would he accept
losing his double locker. We hadan episode on his hat a few weeks
ago. There were these risk factors, for sure, But in this scenario,
even if it was far from certainwhere Kevin Porter Junior accepted the lesser
role and bought in, and whoknows, perhaps having a bit less minutes
and less playmaking responsibility could have lethim use his six ft six frame a

(37:00):
bit more actively on the defensive end. Then yes, there's a world where
he could really contribute to a solidbasketball team with the Rockets. So from
that point, it does lower yourceiling, at least as of now,
and that's not an insignificant variable toconsider it a year where the Rockets want
to win games again, even ifthe fit might be a bit cleaner in

(37:22):
some areas and you don't have thatKevin Porter junior cloud hanging over the organization.
At the same time, we don'twant to dismiss the basketball elements altogether
because we've seen the last couple ofyears, the rot of losing, as
we've referred to numerous times, isreal. And if at some point,
even if you have the right coach, even if you believe in your talent,
if they're not winning enough games andthey're out of contention before the calendar

(37:45):
even turns twenty twenty four, thenyeah, it's hard not to see that
eventually taking a toll. As faras habits on the court, and especially
when we're talking about practices and buyingin and being in the right headspace,
Yeah, that's been a factor ofthe last couple of years. And so
the fact that losing KPJ does lowerthe ceiling of the team. It's not

(38:05):
insignificant now, it's not an applesto apples with the last two years and
the hope that you have a muchbetter head coach and Emaujoka. You also
signed veterans that know how to play, Fred Van Fleet, Dylan Brooks,
so hopefully your floor is a lothigher to begin with, and so even
without KPJ, you don't sink tothe depths of the last couple of years,
and so you're still at least relevantno matter what. But at least
want to acknowledge the basketball side ofthis, because it's not insignificant with that

(38:28):
set. While the Rockets do needto ideally replace his shooting and some of
what they're losing, I do seesome potential positives from the standpoint of long
term development. Again, there isa short term head I do think it
diminishes the ceiling of this year's teambarring a major transaction. But you can
also rightfully point out that, look, this is not a year where you're

(38:49):
trying to win a championship anyway.It's still about the second phase of the
rebuild and transitioning out of being aseller dweller to being more competitive, hopefully
making somewhat of a push for theplay in the way we saw teams like
Utah and Oklahoma City do for portionsof last season. Oklahoma City actually did
get into the play and mix.Of course, that's not a perfect parallel
because they have that SGA, Butthe idea is to be a little bit

(39:13):
ahead of schedule, makes some progress, and ultimately that's what the Rockets want
to do. But even in thisideal scenario where they exceed all expectations,
maybe Jalen Green and or all PrintShongoon take the leap, it's not a
year where're gonna be anywhere close tocompeting for a championships. So you can
point out that even if KPJA lowersyour basketball ceiling this year, how important

(39:35):
is that really? As long asyou avoid the rod of losing because you
weren't going to win a title anyway, that's fair and through that lens,
you can absolutely point out that beyondjust having less risk factor in terms of
will there be locker room chaos ifKPJA doesn't accept the role, will there
be some off court incident that turnsinto a distraction for the team. Beyond
that, I also think there's positivejust for the standpoint of simplifying roles for

(39:58):
players within the exist rotation, andespecially two guys in your backcourt that you're
trying to develop long term, JalenGreen and Aman Toobson. With Jalen Green,
look if Kevin Porter Junior, aplayer of a similar archetype, a
similar mold, similar body type forthat matter, was on this roster,
there were going to be games whereJalen might not finish because I think you

(40:21):
look at you know, the closinglineup, and those reps are especially important
given the leverage of those situations fordevelopment. I think Fred and Dillon were
always going to be out there fordefense. There's a reason you paid all
that money. And while there mightbe a few matchups where you you go
small and slide Dylon to the four, I think against most teams your front
court, you're gonna have two frontcourt players and it'll be a combination of

(40:43):
Jabari Smith, try Eason and allprin Chingoon and so there's one spot and
I think Jalen, you know,he was going to start, and if
he has it going, he'd bethe closer. But there were going to
be some games where Jalen might belooking over his shoulder. If he's having
an off night and Kevin has itgoing, then in a year where the
Rockets want to win, there mighthave been some temptation. Even though developing

(41:04):
Jaalen is better for the long term, you play Kevin down the stretch because
you feel like you need to winthat game. So it's sort of the
short term verts to the long term. Now the Rockets don't really have a
choice. You have to ride Jailand you have to prioritize him, and
so on some level, I thinkit will make Jaalen more confident. He's
not having to look over his shoulder, he's not having to worry. He's
the guy. He can accept theresponsibility, and you know, the Rockets

(41:29):
will sink or swim based on hisperformance. And then as far as the
second unit, while I do thinkyou need to replace the shooting, and
even if they can't trade KPJ fora shooter, there's also other options.
You know, the Rockets will havea pretty favorable waiver wire position coming out
of preseason cuts. So the waythey added Garrison Matthews a couple of years
ago and he was helpful in thatfirst year, maybe you can add a

(41:51):
shooter that way as well, dependingon who gets released at the end of
the preseason, stay tuned for that. Again, the Rockets, the initial
waiver position will be based on lastseason records, so the Rockets will be
very high in the order. That'san option. And again, as far
as Aman, you do need ashooter out there too, I guess give
more floor ballets, especially if he'sgoing to be playing with a sharntate as

(42:13):
well. But also look, KevinPorter Jr. Has functioned as a point
guard the last two years. Idid worry a little bit about just how
much Aman is going to get tooperate and truly get the keys to that
second unit if he's sharing the courtwith the guy who was the point guard
the last two years that has repeatedlyreferred to himself as such, I did

(42:36):
have some nagging fear in the backof my mind that Amin might be a
bit more off ball than he shouldbe, at least in year one based
on this transition period for katepj.Well, now your second unit, you
can give Amen Thompson the keys,even if he's only playing fifteen to twenty
minutes per game at first. Youcan say in those fifteen or twenty minutes.
We're giving you the keys to thisoffense. You can take yours,

(43:00):
but you can learn, you canget the reps, and so I think
again, it's not meant to minimizethe basketball impacts. It does lower your
ceiling, and that's not insignificant thisyear. You do need to avoid the
rot of losing. But as longas you can, and I think it's
reasonable to say that you can betweenFred Dylan and Email Ujoka, as long

(43:20):
as you can maintain at least acompetent floor, then I think in a
season that's ultimately more about the longterm anyway, and the steady growth of
your core six, it could potentiallybe beneficial to you in the long term
because it simplifies roles for Jalen andAmen. And to me that's sort of
a I hesitate to use the termsilver lining because obviously this is an awful

(43:42):
situation that you never want to getinto. But strictly from a basketball standpoint,
that might be some consolation you cantake out of this. That's my
view at least. Yeah, Ithink two might takeaways. One of them
just coincide with what you've said.I think this is are depending on what
they move. Could you take foror if they do. This is just
a lot more pressure and at moreresponsibility for him and Tops. But I

(44:07):
mean know some really means nothing.But he's got the defense stand. He
doesn't have the shooting down. ButI think he I think he'll be fine
with more responsibility. I'm kind ofhappy that he gets it. Obviously,
having KPK the player they're playing,would probably be better because he's more seasoned
than he is overall better basketball playerright now for wins from a wins perspective,

(44:30):
you know that was more important.I do think I do like that
a man, and I'll get intothe second player. I do like a
man getting more responsibility and getting moreminutes because well, it's important, and
I'm sure it's important for Top Security, for our Felstone and everybody in the
building to make the play in thisyear. I would rather, I'm not

(44:53):
I'm not gonna say, knowing thatthe plane is not a guarantee, I
would rather a man tops than getthe reps he needs versus him not getting
and you're still risking not making theplayer. It's it's a tough balance to
strike there, right because you're notguaranteed either either thing. We either player.
But I also think that if it'snot going right, there's always more

(45:15):
things you can do between Stagger ShaneGood more with the second unit so you
can run the off It's a littlebit more between Gill and Green playing with
the second unit as well and runningthe offense a little bit. If if
I'm in is struggling right, there'sother there's other avenues and other ball handles
that you can go to. JavariSmithfield flashes of not ball handling, but
of being an offensive option. Andsummarily how much of that turns. It's

(45:38):
the NBA. Maybe Cavardy gets somemore reps or some more play set up
for him, and maybe he's don'tget steps up and carries that second unit.
But if a trade doesn't happen.But I think it's exciting because this
is about the young players and KPKwas a pretty big I'm not going to
call it a black hole, butsomething close to it as far as as
far as reps go. It hasbeen the last three years either, you

(46:02):
know, I'm sure it's he triedto his best to play point guard,
but he wasn't the point guard andthe Rockets have missed that very much,
and we would talk the entire offseasonabout the need for a point guard.
Well, even in the second unit, he would be a little bit of
a black hole, and we werehoping that he turned to a more offball
role. But let's be honest,the most likely scenario was that at least

(46:24):
between him and a man thumbs andthat you know, he'd just take most
of the reps. But besides aman who I'm excited to actually play more
and hopefully this means I will getmore a man kill in minutes, because
that's really exciting as a packcord forinTransition and just the athleticism the other guy

(46:44):
that I wish benefited from it,I'm not here. If you will is
camp with Moor, it will obviouslydepend on how it looks. I think
it will most most of all dependon how his shot looks, because the
only way I think he gets minutesfrom this is if his shot is big
enough of a difference compared to JayshanTait that they'd rather have him out there

(47:07):
with less experience and with making rookymistakes. Then they would say it just
because he would have to be respectedas a shooter, and they implication that
would have for spacing, especially ona team that's going to have a man
cooms and as an non shooter DulanBrooks as a poor shooter and then basically
no force spacing bigs unless un developsat three point shot. I mean there
were there are some clips out there, but who knows. It's the off

(47:29):
season. Ben Simon status that along time ago. But yeah, So
if if Keim with Moore is goodenough of a shooter that he warrants playing
time versus Leshana because Jishan can't shoot, and you can tell me, you
can tell me he spent the summerin the gym and he has reworked his
three point shot, I'm not fallingfor that. Again. To me,
he's a non child until proven otherwiseon an NBA court. I think this

(47:52):
could have that implication for Camp versuswhen Kipia was there. I think it
was a foreign con conclusion that Kemwas not going to get minutes and was
it basically from the get go.So hopefully this wins can gets shot,
but I think more likely than not, this means jan take place or perhaps
maybe maybe Jeff Green place right.You could you could theoretically you could play

(48:17):
Jeff Green at the four and shiftour reason to the three at least on
that bench unit, and then youknow you could work it out that way.
But yeah, that's basically as faras on the court implications, I
think that's basically covered it. Fromme, I like that neither of us
focused on All French Shangoon a lot, because I think that narrative is being

(48:42):
overdone now for starters. There wasnever going to be an all likelihood a
significant tie between KPJ and Chingoon thisyear. Of course, there would have
been a little bit of overlap,but the odds on scenario was KPJ going
to the bench and Changoon starting.So in terms of those two coexisting and
just prioritizing one inherently make you prioritizethe other a bit less than that debate

(49:06):
that's been out there for some time. Some of that was going to resolve
itself anyway this year because you werestarting fred Van's lead at Point Garden,
probably bringing KPJ off the bench.So that's part of it. But even
in hindsight, I think you know, there's some nuance in terms of in
terms of the Kevin Porter Junior discourseright now, that's getting lost, and

(49:29):
specifically there's a lot of frustration amongstcertain segments of the Rockets online community,
be at social media blogs, atthe usage of all Pern Shingoon. And
it wasn't just last year. Imean, he had great numbers on a
PR thirty six basis in year one. He was playing behind Christian Wood and
even Daniel Tice for long stretches ofhis rookie season. And last year it

(49:52):
wasn't just the fact that now itwas only a game and a half before
Bruno Brando got hurt. It wasn'tjust that he started the season on the
bench. Even when he started,he didn't get the touches, the shot
attempts that a lot of people wanted, and there were games in which Stephen
Silas didn't let him close because theywere so fixated on his defense. Now,
maybe some of that as a StevenSilas thing, who knows, we'll
see this year how he made Ujokachooses to handle it. But there were

(50:15):
a lot of people I think thatmade out this Kevin Porter junior situation to
be the boogeyman because it's just cleaner. Basically, the idea being, if
you take Kevin Porter junior out ofthe mix, and this narrative that,
well, you know, Shingoon isa casualty because they want more of a
rim running big to pair with KPJas the point guard than you just fix
the KPJ problem. A lot ofpeople didn't like him to begin with because

(50:36):
obviously he was a lightning rod.We know the off court considerations, and
ultimately it did blow up. Kudosto the people that called it, they
were right. But in terms ofthe relationship to Shangoon, I think it's
a little more complicated than the conventionalnarrative would lead you to believe. And
that's not meant to blindly defend rufelStone. I think it's more. What

(50:57):
I want to point out is thatsome of their skepticism with regards to Changoon,
it's not just about how he fitsrelative or with Kpej. It's about
Shangoon's long term value as a basketballplayer as a prospect period. Keep in
mind that this off season the Rocketstried everything they could to get Brook Lopez

(51:20):
as their starting center. That waswith Fred Van Fleet as the starting point
guard, not Kevin Porter Jr.I've heard the last couple of months plenty
of people in the building at ToyotaCenter would not be surprised if Jacques Landale
pushes all Prince Shangoon for minutes.Now, that's not me saying I think
Landale would start, but that intraining camp and early in the season there
might be more of a competition thanfolks think because Landale is so committed to

(51:45):
the defensive end of the court,and he plays with so much intensity and
focus and drive on that end,and that's something they still want to see
more of from Shangoon. It's whinethey targeted Lopez. It's why they pivoted
to Landale after that. And youcan argue that they're wrong. You can
argue that Schanoon has been unfairly singledout for his issues on the defensive end

(52:07):
when some of them are systemic andsome of them were team wide. That's
absolutely reasonable. But at the endof the day, it's not just about
the Rockets didn't like Shangoon because itwas an awkward fit with KPJ. Some
of it was that organizationally, theRockets just weren't as high on Shangoon and
as a lot of people within thefan community. And I'm not saying they're

(52:30):
right, they could be wrong.I'm a Chingoon fan. It's entirely possible
he comes out and has an amazingyear, takes the leap, and then
you know, the Twitter crowd looksright, and people within the Rockets be
it's Steven Silas for a fell Stone. Whoever you want to call out from
the last couple of years end uplooking silly for not fully buying in.
I just think this whole narrative ofyou know, Chingoo's development was stunted because

(52:52):
of KPJ. It's a little misleadingand beyond just the theoretical exercise, and
we talk about what they tried todo this offseason with Lopez, you can
also point to the fact that KPJhas missed about twenty five games in each
of the last two seasons, includingtwo straight months almost in January and February
of this year, and the offensedid not dramatically change. You didn't see

(53:14):
a huge pickup in efficiency or Shooon'snumbers. It wasn't like KPJ was out
and then all of a sudden itbecame the all out shin houb and he
looked like baby Yokich. Now I'mnot saying he didn't. You can argue
that he should have gotten more touches, they should have been used more.
You can certainly argue that. Butit wasn't as if the offense just dramatically

(53:35):
changed as soon as KPJA wasn't aconsideration and they had more of a traditional
look at point guard, be atday should Nicks or Tai Tai Washington or
whatever they were thrown out there inKevin's absence. It wasn't like they just
started running everything through Chooon and everythingjust dramatically changed as far as how the
offense looked, how the team functioned. We did have a significant sample in
each of the last two years ofChanoon without Kevin, and it was not

(54:00):
traumatically different in my opinion. Andagain that's not to blindly defend the rockets.
No, it's entirely possible that therockets are too low on Changoon.
What I'm saying is that there's alittle bit because it's just easier, especially
now that KPJ is clearly done,to paint this KPJ situation as the boogeyman
and say this was the reason.And now that he's gone, it's full

(54:21):
steam ahead for all friends Shangoon andnow everything is different, not necessarily.
I hope he takes the leap.I hope he proves you know, not
wants say, proves the rockets wrong. It's not like I don't believe in
him. I just don't. Ijust think that they have a little more
sort of caution to it than someof his biggest supporters on social media.

(54:42):
But to me, I just don'tsee a huge difference in terms of the
outlook for Changoon based on this.And some of that is because Kevin Porter
Junior wasn't the point guard in thefirst place for this coming season, but
some of it's because I think thelast couple of years that narrative, while
not totally invalid, it's a littleoverplay. I do think there's some elements
of sort of a boogeyman to that, if you will, Powelo or anything

(55:05):
you want to add on that frontbefore we move on to some of the
more cultural elements. Yeah, Ithink I think direct correlations to Shangun goes
as far to me, it goesas far as Hey, the the offense,
right, if if KPK is isto be a point guard, ever,
it is probably with the pick androll big or that was the thought

(55:28):
at the time. I think likeit went as far as Bruno Fernando starting
for however many games it was tento game and a half half. You
got hurt in the second game ofthe year, but didn't didn't you pick
it back up for like a weekafter it was I don't remember. It
doesn't mean they might have. Imean it was a small sample, but
yeah, it was. It wasa short time that that's the point.

(55:50):
I think that was as far asit went. I think the part of
not running through Shane Goun the waysa lot of people wanted to and I
wanted to appoints as well, wasbasically that he has a lot actually only
came off the bench for three games. He started seventy two of seventy five
games last year. So yeah,very well, okay, yeah, so

(56:12):
I think I think it goes asfar as you know, the reason most
the reason he's swiped to sixteen thatour type of player has trouble sticking in
the NBA unless it gets to asuperstar level, right and because of and
when you run everything through him,well you're projecting his superstar level out of
a guy that was sixteen for areason. And so I think that's why

(56:37):
the Rockets didn't fully buy into himthe way a lot of people wanted to,
because I mean, even if youlook at what this organization is and
it's not their own more anymore,but a lot of a lot of people
are still there. This is ateam that valued defense and three point shooting,
two of the things that are operenting. Doesn't have the value switchability.
We've seen this over and over again, like they valued they three the exact

(57:00):
opposite basketball principles of what Linglund has. And you could argue that they valued
that except for star players, becauseJames Harden was here for a long time
and Russell Westbrook same thing. Yes, you could. You could say that
once again, it goes it goesback to how much are you willing to
bet that he becomes a superstar player? And I would have argued, and

(57:20):
I did argue at points during thepast season that if it's not working,
might you might as well run throughLingu and see what you have lose.
I advocated for playing Changun and Christianwould I advocated, and when they did,
I'm not going to get back intothat runs. Let's just get to
go power. But but yeah,it's but there's reasons to be skeptical about

(57:43):
Kanun and so I don't think itwas because kp was. It was because
Kapka was there to some extent inthose very few initial games of the season.
But it's also because that's the waythey wanted to run the offense.
And and Steven Salas, I mean, wasn't pretty at that out. She
wasn't great basically anything. But ifthat was if you look at the Dallas
Mavericks, they played Dwight Powell atcenter, who was that pick and roll

(58:06):
big and we've made the point intime and time again that he tried to
fit squared pieces into into round holesall the time. And KPK was supposed
to be his Luka and k wasn'tgood enough, But Louka played with Dwight
Powell, he was, you know, at James Harden type as helocentric ball

(58:27):
player. And so I don't knowhow hard this is to understand. But
at the same time, and Idon't know if you want to move this
onto this already, but although itwasn't directly tied to Shangon, I think
overall you can still say that givingKPK so much of a feature in the

(58:51):
offense hurts Kyle and hurts Shango andhurts Labari. If not, if nothing
else, for the fact that thoseguys could have gotten more honor bow reps
or if KPJ were instead of ifKip Kate didn't exist, another punt guard
would be there and life of thatpunk Gard would have had a little bit
more experience since setting guys up,which would have helped Dylan. Although one
more thing I want to push backon. I do not think that going

(59:12):
back to John Wall would have beenthe answer, given how he performed in
a rebuild in the second half ofthat previous season. That's another thing I've
seen you pushed John Wall out forthis guy. I don't think John Wall's
the answer. Now. Theoretically youcould have gotten more of a traditional point
guard, but I don't think theRockets, you know, moving on from
John Wall for Kevin Porter Junior,I think that angle is overplayed too.
I do think you can argue nowI would push rock a little bit about

(59:34):
Jamari because it's not like he's reallya shot creator and he just wasn't ready
at all for the first half ofhis rookie season. I don't know how
much overlapter is there, and Jalenultimately has gotten plenty of usage and shot
attempts. But to your point,generally speaking, yes, like reps that
went to KPJ could have gone toother places. You're right on that.
It is fair to say that,you know, some of the Rockets investment

(59:57):
in KPJ was misguided and could havebeen and used on players who ultimately didn't
flame out of the entire NBA.That is a fair criticism. All I'm
trying to do is provide some nuancebecause I do think some of it.
You know, you hear certain nameslike Canon and John Wall thrown into it,
and you know, it just sortof makes it easier to push that

(01:00:17):
agenda. But I think some ofit's a little bit overdone. You can
make the case within reason, andI think that's what you're trying to do
exactly. I think you can't saywith a hundred percent certainty, and I'm
not saying you are, I'm justsaying in an apathetical you can't say that
it didn't hurt. I think Ithink that they wouldn't hurt. Yeah,

(01:00:37):
yeah, no, Yeah, Iknow, I know that you're saying that
you're saying it did, but justnot to the extent that people are making
it out to me and I myself, I'm not saying that they should have
kept John Wall for KAPT. Youknow, I celebrated like if we had
won the lottery the moment the reportcame out that the Rockets were going to
sit on the wall because John Wallwas not playing mentor type basket well the

(01:01:00):
year before and Kpja was already there. He was, you know, I
don't know what he was trying todo. I don't know if he starting
to get his next bag or ifhe thought he was still an Also podcast
his podcast interview made it very clearthat he did not want to play that
role. Yeah, so the termall stuff to me is fogus. But
I will say I think I thinkKellen if not really because of the on

(01:01:22):
ball stuff, because I think heplayed on ball too much last season,
but I think if you replace KPTAwith a I don't know, you could
you could get a guy for forthe MLB at the start of the season
if he wanted to call it DennisRoder who was here, or call it
call it did Augustine whoever, itis just a just a you know,
step the table type of point guard. Yeah. I think Jaylen more off

(01:01:43):
ball shooting opportunities. Yeah, andI think just if he has his efficiency,
Yeah, I think if you ifyou have more of a neutral point
guard instead of KPLA, you wouldhave slightly benefited that basically everybody on the
team, because it's one less inexperiencedguy not knowing what he's doing right,
and that always helps from a functionalitystand But although they're still cooked by Steven

(01:02:06):
Salos, which cannot be the ministwhich would still lead to disaster. Even
even DJ Augustine was a disaster,and then Distruer was one as well,
but he was just less of adisaster than what we were used to.
So people kind of sharish this timehere for some reason. That being said,
just talking about the KPJA experiment asa whole and help that reflects in
the organization bive hardesty. Of course, fans had a great article on it

(01:02:30):
today, and I was expecting itto be more negative and less objective than
it was, but it was reallywell written and there are there is a
little bit of opinion on that,I mean fairly so, but He laid
out a lot of the reports thatcame out about Kpka throughout time, and
I read it and I came outof it thinking, hey, you know

(01:02:51):
that's fair enough, right me?Personally, I believed in Kpka the talent.
I thought he might. I thoughthe was. He had one of
the highest stealings on this team,and I thought he was worth giving a
shot too, especially during your rebowrebuilding. Yes, the contacts exactly,
I think I think he made.I wanted to give him a shot.
I wanted him still on a team. I was happy with this extension throughout

(01:03:14):
the entirety of his time here.I supported him, not as at a
certain point to stop being as apoint guard because I thought you would be
best suited for an offball role.But for the most part, I thought
it was warranted than he was here. And it was a beat that Raphael
Stone make. Just like drafting someoneis a bat, allocating the resources to

(01:03:36):
someone is a pet. And ifthere's something that we know now is that
that bat ended up not paying off. Just like when you draft a guy
and he's a bust, it endsup not paying off, and you are
and you do get on you onyour record or on your resume that you
took this PET and it didn't workout, and the team paid whatever how

(01:03:58):
much you want to quantify for itin reps and culture and whatever it is.
And so I think the Rockets,because Rafaelston took this PET, are,
ultimately, knowing the results, worseoff than they would then they would
be if he hadn't taken it.But who knows if he hadn't taken this
pet, wouldn't he have taken anotherone that could potentially be worse We don't

(01:04:19):
know, But compared to a neutraloutcome, the pet didn't pay off.
And so because of its Rockets arelike and because of the timing that they
didn't pay off, at living himvery little room to maneuver because teams are
mostly set at this point, willhurt the Rockets from a competitive standpoint across

(01:04:40):
the next season. But then again, I don't think it's fair to call
for him to be fired right nowbased on the details that I know so
far. You know, I'm notgoing to go off on tenuous reports from
insiders inside forums that have you know, a history of posting stuff. But
how much it is truly is trulybelievable and how muchlyvid is is verified.

(01:05:03):
Right, I'm not going to gointo that. I'm going to go into
the public perception of what it isright now based on what most reporters have
reported so far, and you know, the guys that do it for a
living, right, And so asfar as that goes, I think it's
a bit of a stretch to askfor Raphaelstone to lose his job because,

(01:05:26):
in my opinion, if you're goingto have a results based analysis of this,
of the KPK situation, you cando that and that's totally fair.
This is sports, that's how itworks. And the kp K bed was
a failure, right, and you'reif your results analysis, your results based
analysis, is that that's fair.At the same time, if you're going

(01:05:48):
to perform results based analysis on that, then you have to wait for the
results of Raphaelstone's tenure or the cyclethat Raphaelstone put in place before you could
if you want to fire him ornot, unless he does something catastrophical,
which would be trading Gail and Greenfor you know, a guy that doesn't
turn out to be anything, ordrafting again it's a complete bust in a

(01:06:10):
year or two. That might mightwarrant firing the TM mid cycle, but
if not, you have to maintainyour results based analysis. Let the team
go through the cycle, not youknow, or the first or the phase
of the cycle where results start tomatter before you make that decision, which
with the rockets means waiting to seehow the next year goes. Because this

(01:06:35):
is as we've said time and timeagain, put up or shirt up time.
This is whender when when he's beenbuilding what Rafflestom has been building for
the last three years is supposed toprovide the results, tensible results, not
development, which is something that anybody, anybody can can you know, put
their finger on whatever they believe developmentto be. But now you have a

(01:06:57):
direct you know, and unless theygo both Baromo there for success, which
is wins and losses. Do theymake the plane? Do they not?
How do they look? Why didthey make the plane? Or why do
they not make the plane? Andspecifically with Jalen Green and all for and
Changoon, this is YR three.This is a year where they're typically is
a breakthrough from guys who are ultimatelygoing to take that leap. They were

(01:07:20):
the first two true blue chip prospectsKPJ we can agree. Even internally,
the Rockets always viewed him as alottery ticket. They knew the baggage,
they knew the risk that was aflyer on a guy that even his attractors
will certainly admit has a lot oftalent. Jalen Green and all For and
Changoon were the first true blue chipsthat they pulled out internally through their own

(01:07:45):
resources, with a mid first runpick with Changoon, who honestly the Rockets
said they were trying to trade forhim as soon as he was on the
board at six and sixteen was justthe first lot that they could actually get,
and fortunately for them, Changoon wasstill on the board Jayleen of course
when it second overall. And nowyou're putting those two out with a true
point guard and Fred van Fleet andanother key defender in Dylan Brooks, so

(01:08:09):
you have more culture. Now there'sa proven head coach in Emaudoka. If
those guys don't take a leap,and it looks like guys you allocated premium
resources too aren't panning out, thenyeah, there is a discussion that we're
going to have to have. Andby the way, next year is the
extension summer potentially for Jaalen and Alps. So it's a critical inflection point.
They're varying cent advised to play wellthis year. If they don't, then

(01:08:31):
yeah, that's the kind of thingthat can force, you know, some
hard conversations in terms of the resultsface outcomes. I'm not there yet.
I agree, there's still a littlebit more time that I would give with
these core six and specifically those twoguys from twenty twenty one that are hitting
and hitting a key inflection point withintheir careers. There's no more excuses.
You've got the point guard, you'vegot the head coach. I think you

(01:08:53):
let this season play out and thenyou know, review the landscape by the
time we get to next April andMay. Yeah. I ultimately it's about
being balanced, right, You appliedthe same way. If you apply that,
you applied the results based analysis forthe KPK situation. Fairly fair,
fair enough. Now let's apply thesame object to what is the cycle of

(01:09:14):
rebuilding that Rafaelson went through. It'sthose three years and now this is the
year where every train is the finewhere we judge. But these guys are
we are at a point where theseguys are supposed to start producing. Let's
see how that goes, and youcould make the argument that he would be
given longer because the rebuild. Youknow, there are scenarios where maybe the
twenty twenty one draft is didn't gowell and those guys don't pan out,

(01:09:38):
but the twenty twenty two and twentytwenty three drafts to not be genius,
And no, if in a scenariowhere Amen, Thompson and Partismith turned out
to be superstars, you may regretthe fact that you fired rafaels And at
the end of this year because theyshare didn't go well. But that's not
even the point that I'm making.The point and you can say that,

(01:09:58):
you know, the Kevin Porter JuniorSI could accelerate that timetable. If things
go poorly and then you factor inthe rebuild being more delayed than you expect
with this Kevin Porter Junior storyline andother misses, then yeah, that could
you know, perhaps move up yourschedule a bit more than than you would
if there wasn't the KDJ cloud hangingover the rebuild to this point, so

(01:10:21):
we could accelerate the timetable. Ithink what you're saying, and I'm in
agreement with you on It's not ina vacuum so egregious that you have to
and should act right now. It'snot to that level. Yeah, As
I said, unless someone makes afranchise altering mistake, they shouldn't be fired
before they get to do their jobas long as they provide, you know,

(01:10:43):
they make good moves to some extent. I mean, local trade was
still great, Christian wood trade wasstill great. I mean the drafting outside
of the top ten has been greatas well. So I think because because
of that, he has earned himselfin a fleeway to at least be a
to see out one year of histeam trying to compete with a good head
goat Steady picked with a team withthe free agency and the draft picks finally,

(01:11:08):
you know, having some expectations onthem, right, I think it
makes sense to wait for the nextyear. That being said, I'm not
yeah, at least I'm not sayingthat the KPK situation isn't basically Stone shooting
himself in the foot a little bit. It does decrease the ability of the
team going into this year. It'sI call him. I twittered about it.

(01:11:30):
I called it a little bit ofa handicap. Right if if he
didn't make the bet on KPJA,he would likely have a player then instead
that would play a certain role inthe team would probably be a team would
be better for it than it iswith kpja's contract with that KPKA playing,
which is basically the worst day scenario. Yes, it is a mistake,
just like he has made other mistakes. In my opinion, then Brooks is

(01:11:54):
pay too much. That's a mistake. In my opinion, the title Washington
guvera Christopher rates were a mistake,But once again they are mistakes egregious enough
for you to fire people on thespot. And you have to see how
those mistakes versus all versus the goodmoves that they made, how those span
out, and we'll will get tosee that this season. Even although not

(01:12:18):
having KPK and the KPJ saga isa handicap, that doesn't mean that it
is impossible that the team performs anywaysor performs better. Who knows what would
have happened with KPJ. Right,So you have to wait see how things
span out and make your decision atthe end of the year. What it

(01:12:38):
makes no sense to make a changenow I mean the off season has just
ended, right, Well, areyou going do you think the Stone is
going to make or break the teambased on from now on? From now
until that deadline, because that's basicallywhat you're switching out if you choose to
fire him now versus potentially making thatdecision at the end of the at the

(01:12:59):
end of the season. So itjust I think asking for him to be
let go now is it canda driven. It's overreactionary, which is which is
easy to do with social social mediaage. And I think I think cooler
heads will prevail within rockets from officeand they'll at least wait and see what
this team that Broughtolston has built turnsout to be. Because that's when you

(01:13:20):
can jet someone. I mean,you can ask someone I don't know to
build you a plane and then firethem halfway through because you didn't like how
the paint job looked. You haveto wait until the plane flies and see
if If the point flies well,then you keep them. If the plane
doesn't, then it crashes. That'swhen you fire them. It's I said,

(01:13:42):
I said, unless there is somecatastrophic mistake, you have to see
out the cycle. Yeah, AndI think back to the episode we did
back in January grading is first twoplus years as GM, and the conclusion
we came two at the very endwas, look, a lot of bad
gms out there. You absolutely cando worse, and so you have to

(01:14:05):
be careful with this. You can'tyou know, I'm not saying that you
can't do better, but you alsodon't need to go into this situation in
a reckless manner, which I thinkit would be to just abruptly change course
on the fly right before the seasonbased on this. I think that's a
little extreme. If you eventually godown this path, it needs to be

(01:14:28):
measured. There needs to be astrategic plan for how you upgrade because his
track record, while not perfect,there are definitely a number of GMS that
have done worse. Because there aresome clear positives for Raffel. And so
again I'm not saying it's the world'sbest GM. I'm not saying you can't
do better. No, you canabsolutely make a case. I'm just saying
that you need to be sort ofmeasured and beyond just the fairness angle of

(01:14:49):
giving him this season to see howsome of his young prospects develop, I
also just think it's prudent from anorganizational perspective, because making a move now
would largely be one based on panicand emotion, and I think if you're
going to make a change that drasticto your basketball operations, it needs to
be more strategic. So beyond justgetting more data, it also gives you
more time to sort of survey thelandscape and think internally, Okay, what

(01:15:13):
are other options, what are youknow, other paths that we could consider.
Put out some feelers behind the scenes, and because yeah, there's a
lots of way, it is nota given that you would improve from raphael'stone,
there are definitely worse gms and that'ssomething you have to consider now.
One caveat I want to throw outthere for all the talk, and I
think we're largely in agreement that theinvestment and resources they put into the KPJA

(01:15:36):
project the last couple of years it'snot insignificant, but it's not catastrophic.
It's not like they gave just afranchise scribbling amount of be it money or
reps. I do think they accountedfor the risk and the project nature of
basically the KPJ wildcard. That's thebest way I think you can frame his

(01:15:58):
initial acquisition in twenty one, itwasn't egregious enough to where you say,
because it played out this way thatit's just so bad that action has to
be taken. There is one potentialscenario, but I think it goes back
into your message board fodder theory,and I think, you know, giving
more credence to substantive reports. Ihave seen speculation that KPJ's baggage at usc

(01:16:28):
where Evan Mobiley's dad was in assistantcoach, could have been a factor in
the Rockets drafting Jalen Green ahead ofEvan Mobley. Mobley was number two in
the eyes of a lot of peoplearound the NBA in that twenty twenty one
class, and to this point,Evan has been the better player relative to
Jaylan. Now again there's circumstances.He's got a much more simplified role in
Cleveland. It's better team around him, and I still have a lot of
faith personally in Jaylan, especially thisyear, that he's going to take the

(01:16:50):
leap. But ultimately, if Mobileyturns out to be a better player,
and to this point, I knowthere's circumstances, but he has been,
and you let the KPJ project totalwild card influence what you did with the
number two overall pick in the draft, then that's really really bad. But
I just personally don't believe it,because again, that's from what I've seen
speculation. I have not seen hardreporting from anyone that alleges the Rockets made

(01:17:15):
the number two pick in twenty twentyone for any reason other than they truly
believed in Jalen Green. And again, it's just important to note the difference
between social media fodder and gossip versuscredible reporting. If that had happened,
then yeah, it's really bad.But again there's just a lot of gossip

(01:17:35):
and turning, you know, forthe sake of clicks, just fun to
internet discussions into being more than theyare. It reminds me a lot of
when you know, this June,when there were constant reports that, oh,
because the Rockets are going after aformer All Star point guard is initially
was believed to be James Harden,it turned out to be Fred VanVleet,
that the Rockets might not take AmenThompson because why would you draft rookie point

(01:17:57):
guard if you're going to get aVetteran and I said throughout the US and
ultimately Apps right, there is noway in hell you would let an asset
as premium as the number four overallpick and a strong first round who's nineteen
years old and if all things pansout, could be a key player for
your franchise for the next fifteen yearsbe determined by a stop gap, which

(01:18:17):
is what James Harden or ultimately Fredvan Fleet were and probably are. They
are not the foundation of your contender, but we hope is a contender three
to five years down the line.And it would have been silly for the
Rockets, and fortunately they did notto factor that end of their thinking with
what they're going to do with thenumber four overall pick. Even if there's

(01:18:38):
a position overlap whatever, you dealwith that later. And I think it's
very similar in this case in thatyou know, yeah, because KPJ was
something of don't want to say acornerstone, but one of the most promising
prospects the Rockets had at the time. I mean, they were really bad
in the first half of twenty twentyone before the draft. Then yeah,

(01:18:58):
you know there's people that are goingto speculator. Okay, how does you
know whoever they hypothetically draft fit inwith I guess KPJ and kJ Martin,
who are probably the two best prospectsthey had at the time, but ultimately
needed of those guys were anywhere closeto enough where you should factor they're fit
in with an asset as high asnumber two overall. So I just want
to address that. If that happened, there's credible reporting comes out that the

(01:19:21):
Rockets passed on Evan Mobiley for thesake of tension between the Mobiley camp and
KPJ based on knowing his baggage atUSC, then yeah, that'd be really
really bad if you let your numbertwo overall pick be influenced by guy who's
a project. I just personally donot believe that at all. I think
they were all in on Jalen Greenthe prospect. I think they still are

(01:19:42):
and hopefully he works out. Ifhe doesn't, then yeah, you can
hold it against our fel But Idon't think KPJ factored into that analysis.
I think it was just about Jayleenthe basketball player, and you know,
time will tell if he's right.This year will be a big year for
that. The final thing I wantto say about KPJ and the whole culture
element as it pertains to rough FeltZone, and not just Forfell but tilden
Ferteita as the owner, has someresponsibility as well. And there's plenty of

(01:20:04):
people last three years have been miserablethat already do not like Raffel and or
Tillman. And this is sort ofeasy AMMO to advance some of those agendas.
But I would be very careful inascribing too much. Again, it's
very easy to sort of boogeyman thissituation because, at least from the circles
that I run in on social mediaand blogs, I would say the fan

(01:20:30):
base there were basically three factions.There were about ten or fifteen percent that
were out on KPJ at all costs. They were in the Chris Mannix camp
of you know, basically as soonas that New Year's Day incident twenty twenty
two. That was a straw thatbroke the camel's back for some of those
folks and said, you know what, I don't I don't believe in him.
He's not going to be one ofthe guys who takes advantage of his
second chance. I don't think anyone'ssaying that you shouldn't give second chances.

(01:20:53):
But for some that incident with JohnLucas and storming out of the end a
half time was a point in whichthey said this is not going to end
well, and ultimately it did.And so if you were in the camp
that said, then you know what, cut him, waive him the Chris
Mannix line, you were right.You can have the victory lap. Dave
Hardesty put that out after everything brokethat Chris Mannix was right, he was

(01:21:16):
kudos to him, and I objectedwith him at the time, but Chris
Mannix was right. And I wouldsay there were about ten to fifteen percent
at least from my interactions of Rocketsfans who felt the same way, and
those people should take a victory lap. That's fair. Now, on the
flip side, there's about ten tofifteen percent of people that we're just want
a shamed KPJ. Homers that youbelieved that everything was basically fake news and

(01:21:40):
that he was going to be acore piece to the future just because quite
frankly they wanted him to be.And you know, those people were clearly
silly. Don't want to name names, but certainly some of that was overdone.
However, I think there's sort ofa middle ground that you and I
both belonged to, and in myopinion, was a clear majority if I'd

(01:22:01):
say probably sixty seventy percent of thefan base that we're okay with KPJ.
Recognized the talent but wanted appropriate riskmitigations, and ultimately that's what the Rockets
did with the contract and getting theyear to year optionality, specifically after the

(01:22:21):
first year of that extension. That'swhy I do sort of disagree with some
of the doubling down framing. Ifin October when the Rockets gave KPJ what
amounted to a one year, sixteenmillion dollar extension, that's what it is
now. If you didn't want KPJextended at all, if you were hell
bent on sending in the restrictive freeagency and potentially you know, trading him

(01:22:45):
or losing it for no compensation,if you were in the camp then that
he was more trouble than he's worth, that it wasn't going to be worthwhile
than kudos to you. That's theChrismannis camp. Those people got it right.
But I also think there's some peoplethat were in the middle ground that
because they're already frustrated with a numberof things with the Rockets. Again,

(01:23:05):
this rebuild has not been pretty.That are sort of using hindsight being twenty
twenty to rewrite history a little bit. I don't necessarily agree that the Rockets
doubled down on Kpja with that extensionunless you were willing to lose him for
no compensation, unless you're ultimately wantinghim off the team period, And if
you are, that's fine. ButI just don't think, at least for

(01:23:27):
my interactions, that that's where themajority of the fan base was, because
I want to illustrate what the pathwould have been had you not given him
that extension, So, you know, to go back, both sides gave
a little bit in that negotiation,and at the time, most of the
reviews both nationally and locally, ofthat Kpja extension were favorable. Here's the

(01:23:47):
dynamic. The non taxpayer emily,which most NBA teams have, was going
to be about thirteen million in annualvalue based on the new CBA. The
Rockets hate a bit more than thatto get an option year after year one
to help mitigate the risk because ofhis baggage. If you wanted to get

(01:24:11):
KPJ at something closer to the mLE. Then I don't know why he
signs that extension at all. Hejust takes it to free agency because that
type of money is there and probablyfor more years than one, at least
a partial guarantee on the second year. Nobody's gonna give KPg a four year
deal. Let's not get crazy,but you know, played out to July
twenty twenty three, it had beena season and a half since there were

(01:24:33):
any known incidents. He was oneof the best just catching shoot players in
the league average and efficient nineteen sixand six and shoe shooting percentages in about
December fifteenth was about sixty. Therewas a market for KPJ if he had
become a free agent, so theRockets paid a little bit more than that
to get the option on your one, and then KPJ took that deal for

(01:24:53):
the peace of mind of getting thatguaranteed money nine months early. Both slides
compromised a little bit, and againthe reviews were fairly favorable at the time.
Now I will acknowledge the extensions comeunder a little bit more scrutiny this
offseason because the Rockets had the tradethat sent out at Usman Garuba and Thai
Ti Washington for extra cap space forBrook Lopez. They didn't even end up

(01:25:14):
needing. And it is true thatif you hadn't given Kpja the extension,
his caphold entering what would have beenrestricted free agency would have been about ten
million dollars, and the delta betweenthat figure and the sixteen million on his
current extension about six million dollars.That was basically the Uzban and Thai Ti
deals. But I think that's alittle bit overplayed. We discussed that in
recent episodes. By now it's clearthat no NBA team wanted those players on

(01:25:38):
a legitimate NBA contract. They wentunclaimed. Multiple teams tried to trade them
and couldn't. They're now on twoway deals, which are the NBA equivalent
of minor league contracts. Again,any team could have traded for them or
claimed them, they didn't. Idon't think that's a huge loss, and
I don't think that's something that youshould factor in all that heavily into your

(01:25:58):
analysis of this. And there wasno replace them to play in the rotation
this year, as we've covered before. As far as the scenario of what
happens if you keep them with theRockets. More importantly, though, in
terms of the contract that would havehappened had KPJ become a restricted free agent.
There's a couple of very important piecesof context here. Again my opinion
based on the fact there hadn't beenany known issues in a year and a

(01:26:19):
half. He's a talented and versatiletwenty three year old coming off an efficient
season. I think he gets,if not two years, at least a
year and a partial guarantee at leasttwo years, and I'd say like twenty
million guaranteed and probably more than thatoverall, but again beyond that being a

(01:26:40):
bit more sort of measured with theoptions because of the obvious baggage risk,
but so many teams have the midlevel exception. He was going to get
more money in my opinion, orworst case in the ballpark, he was
not going to get dramatically less thansixteen million, coming off what he's done
in the last two seasons and isage and not having any known incidents.
I'm sorry, that just was notgoing to happen. So if you would

(01:27:05):
have, knowing what we know now, if you had waited until restricted free
agency, the thoughts are you'd bein an even worse place, because even
if it's a slightly lower average annualvalue, all that matters now this NBA
career is probably over is the totaldeal value, and so the sixteen million
that you're having to eat. Myguess is he gets more guaranteed money than
that if he enters restricted free agency. And KPJ probably knew that too.

(01:27:28):
I think he just took the dealearly for the peace of mind. And
so from a Rocket standpoint, averageanual value doesn't even matter in a situation
like this. It's just a totalguaranteed money period that the Rockets or some
other team is potentially on the hookfor now that he's just completely toast as
an NBA player, and who knowsif he'll even be a freeman. I

(01:27:48):
mean, there's a world where heabsolutely goes to jail for this time will
tell as far as the legal case. And so in that scenario, if
you played out to restricted free agency, you're an even worse spot. There's
another area where you're in a worstspot, and the Rockets didn't know this
at the time, but it isa results driven business and so you factor
it into the analysis. If theRockets had given him a contract and restricted

(01:28:12):
free agency, he would not betrade eligible until December fifteenth, and I
think that's far too long for theRockets to wait this scenario where they trade
him. I do think politically heneeds to be off any NBA team's roster
by the time games actually start playing. I don't think that's politically tenable at
all. And if you had givenhim a contract this summer, he wasn't

(01:28:32):
going to be trade eligible at all, and so you'd almost certainly just have
to waive him as opposed to beingable to explore trade options at all.
Now, again that's not something thatI think we're fell planned for. But
at the same time, like theresults are a factor, it is a
results driven business, and so whenwe're talking about the total costs, then
yes, this alternative scenario, inmy opinion, it actually may have been

(01:28:55):
worse. The one caveat if youwere truly okay losing Kevin Porter Junior for
no compensation and basically using his salaryslot in this offseason, that you had
all that money on somebody else,if you wanted out of the Kevin Porter
Junior business altogether, if you werein the hardline Chris Mannis camp, then

(01:29:17):
congratulations, you got it right.Hat tip to you, and there are
some that were in that boat,but if you were in what I believe
the majority were, which is themiddle ground, the idea of I'm interested
in gambling on his talent, especiallyin a rebuild, but I want some
mitigations. Ultimately, that's what theRockets did, and I don't think the

(01:29:38):
mitigations would have been all that muchbetter had they waited until restricted free agency.
In my opinion, it probably wouldhave ended up worse. That's just
my opinion. So at the endof the day, I think there's a
little bit of revisionist history with goingback in time and saying that the extension
was doubling down. No, itwas their version risk mitigation, and in

(01:30:00):
some ways it actually may have mitigatedthe risk relative to resigning him as a
restricted free agent. Again, theone caveat being unless you're proposing letting him
go all together. But hindsight's twentytwenty now. The question I would ask
was that your opinion at the time, if it was hot tip. If
not, then you made a mistake. And it's possible that NBA gms will

(01:30:25):
as well. And that's the veryleast point I want to make on this.
Some will hear all that and saythat's a fair argument in theory.
But Rafelstone is the GM and soon in Fratida is the owner. These
guys have more knowledge than we do. So even if fans didn't want out
of the KPJ business and we're okaytaking the gamble, then the Rockets should
have known better because he's their employee. And my response to that would be,

(01:30:48):
this is not a basketball issue.You can say in regards to,
you know, certain dynamics that theyhave information to in terms of their data
analytics, what happens on the practicecourt. Yeah, they have more information
than us in terms of something likethis that happens behind closed doors. They
don't have cameras on this guy's drivewayor inside his bedroom. There's some things

(01:31:12):
that are private. And even oneof the prestigious organizations that referenced earlier,
it seems like the Spurs in theheat. Look, they just had the
Josh Primo situation a year or soago. Are we going to act like
that? Greg Popovich and R.C. Buford and Peter Holt don't know
what they're doing. You can evengo back to the early nineteen nineties Vernon
Maxwell hunched a guy in the sandswith the Rockets in the nineties, and

(01:31:35):
of course they recovered to win achampionship with him, and then he ended
up actually leaving the team at thestart of the playoffs before the second championship
in nineteen ninety five. Are wegoing to act like Rudy tom Jonovians didn't
know what he was doing? Interms of building a culture, there is
an NBA history of giving second chances. When you give second chances, sometimes

(01:31:55):
are going to work out. JohnLucas is an example of a guy who
got the chance and redeemed himself andthen some and has learned from it and
some don't. Now that's not tosay you minimize it, No, you
absolutely keep it in mind. Itis a black market. Is something that
sort of goes in the file,and you hope that they learn from it.
But in terms of the alleged lackof institutional control, if you will,

(01:32:17):
I would not go there based onone player a case study that is
basically one example. Now, ifthis happens again, then yeah, If
similar things happen with other guys,then yeah, it absolutely is fair to
question. Be it the GM,the coach the owner. Are the rockets
missing red flags? Are they doingsomething in terms of their culture that's just

(01:32:42):
not recognizing these problems. If ithappens repeatedly, then sure, But there
are plenty of examples, even withgood teams and well run organizations of guys
who on personal issues. Because again, so much of this happens behind closed
doors. It's not like you're watchingthis every day on the basketball court and

(01:33:02):
collecting data. There are going tobe, unfortunately, some isolated incidents,
and so I guess the word Iwould go back to is nuance. This
is not meant to be a blanketexcuse for rafel Stone. It absolutely should
go into his file if you will, and if he makes similar mistakes in
the future, then yeah, youcan and probably should make or ask questions

(01:33:23):
regarding the culture and are they justnot caring enough of the human angles.
But based on one man, I'mnot willing to go to that extreme just
yet. I would say it's somethingyou should learn from, it's something that
you should keep in your memory bank. But to go back to what you

(01:33:45):
were saying as far as just thebasketball merits, I think it's something that
while a black mark for raffel probablyfor Tillman, for the whole organization.
I don't think it's catastrophic to thepoint where you make a panic move.
Now. I think you keep inthe back of your mind. If it's
repeated, then sure it could bethe appetus for a move down the line.
But I just don't think in isolationthat this is so bad that it

(01:34:09):
prompts the move. I guess that'sthe way I would sum all this up.
Yeah, at the end of theday, it's you can hold people
accountable because it is somewhat their responsibilityto make the correct bets if you're being
results space as I said before.But then again, as far as we
know from reputable sources and not randomguys and forums, the Rockets took a

(01:34:30):
shot on a guy that didn't workout. They had faith in him.
Obviously they knew more than we do, but to what extent we won't know
until someone like Woke Shams, maybeTim McMahon, guys like that both a
story on it. I wanted tobelieve in the KPK personally before I found
out what this would happen. Right. He seemed like a guy who had

(01:34:55):
it, who had the traumatic upbringingthat was trying to make something of himself
at some mental health mental health issues, but he was trying to work through
them, and I sympathized with that, and I was rooting for him to
succeed. Obviously, it's turned outthat he is at an actual monster,
right and it certainly appears that way. Yeah, yeah, based on based

(01:35:17):
on the reporting we have today inthe actual criminal complaint. Yeah, so
you know, they were wrong.But the only thing that could change my
perception of the Rockets as organization wouldbe if your report came out that they
knew that abuse was going on,was going on throughout their relationship while he

(01:35:41):
was with the Rockets, and theydid nothing about it. Yeah, that
would be something that yeah, andI will say from my conversations, they
were you know, people have saidthis week there were warning signs. Yeah,
there were. The Rockets did notturn a blind eye to this.
They said consistently throughout the two anda half years that he was here.
They were aware of the anger issue, that it was very real. It

(01:36:01):
was told to me multiple times.It wasn't like they were turning a blind
eye. It's that they were trustingthe process of trying to improve that he
was going to therapy. He wasworking very intensely with John Lucas. And
it's funny, you know when yousee all this stuff about oh, there's
these warning signs, well, wedon't want to just say well, because

(01:36:24):
there's these warning signs to just notget people's second chances. In this case
we're talking about, you know,he's worked with John. John Lucas is
the quintessential example, and you goback to his upbringing in the eighties,
and that's why he tries to workwith so many troubled athletes now of a
guy who did a lot of badthings and ultimately was able to learn from
his mistakes, adapted his behavior andbecame, you know, a change agent

(01:36:44):
for good within sports and helping somany young athletes move past some of their
demons and get to a better placementally when it comes to their ability not
just to be productive on the court, but just to be productive people in
general and live a healthy life.John Lucas has been immense and so when
we talk about him him in thisstory because obviously you know he had not
just the incident with KPJ on Januaryfirst, twenty twenty two, but he's

(01:37:04):
been sort of a mentor this wholetime. Yeah, the Rockets took it
seriously. That's why they had Lucasworking with him. That was a huge
part of their plan when they broughthim in in early twenty twenty one.
That's why, you know, AustinRivers mentioned this week that when the Rockets
initially acquired him from Cleveland, theywere wondering about what they should do because
the talent was there. But they, yes, they recognized the risk and

(01:37:25):
they tried to you know, itwasn't like they just said, you know,
there's nothing to see here, coveryour eyes and ears and all those
memes. No, they took itseriously. It's just unfortunately in this case,
those steps weren't enough and he couldn'tput those demons behind it. That
doesn't mean that whenever there's warning signsin the future that it's an automatic no
go again. You know, JohnLucas is the perfect example. They were

(01:37:46):
for sure warning signs with John Lucas, and he ended up being just a
transcendent figure, not just as aplayer and a coach, but as a
man and what he's done for somany people within the athletic community. So
I think it's just important to notethat there were warning signs, absolutely,
but that in and of itself,I don't think it is necessarily disqualifying.
There's plenty people that have taken advantageof second chances, and the Rockets were

(01:38:09):
taking steps to make sure that hewas trying to improve himself and working on
his problems. And again, therehadn't been any issues at least not to
my knowledge, since that incident onNew Year's Day twenty twenty two. That
was a clear inflection point. Hewas suspended after that, they had some
hard conversations and you know, whilethere were other things we can point to
the Strip Club incident that was amonth after he started playing in early twenty

(01:38:31):
twenty one, there was the DJincident that Jackson Gatlin has reported, which
to my understanding, was also intwenty twenty one. That incident in early
twenty two was sort of an inflectionpoint, and at that point, yeah,
you had to take it more seriouslyand at least to their knowledge,
you know, for the season anda half it took place since January one,

(01:38:51):
twenty twenty two, there had beenprogress. There had been growth.
While not perfect, the incidents weredramatically reduced. There wasn't any major story
line. Again, that's part ofwhy I think he would have gotten at
least maybe a year and a halfof guaranteed money. It's something close to
the mid level exception, which nearlyevery team has. It's not that the
Rockets didn't take it seriously. It'sjust in this case, all the help

(01:39:13):
they tried to give just apparently didn'twork out. And sometimes it's just going
to be that way, and ifit continues to happen, then sure it's
a black mark on the leadership ofthe organization. But in one case,
not necessarily. Sometimes sometimes the secondchances work out, sometimes they don't.
This one doesn't. You follow itaway, you don't ignore it, you
keep it in mind. But aslong as this is the one example,
then to me, it's not somethingthat's automatically disqualifying for anyone simply based on

(01:39:39):
how this turned out. Yeah,I'm with you. With the information we
have right now, sure from reputablesources. What I have to say is,
you know, from a basketball standpoint, it was a missed bet.
From a human standpoint, I cantell you that I wouldn't have made the
same bet with what we know rightnow, because with what was public knowledge,

(01:40:01):
I believe in KPKDA talent, andI thought maybe he could work through
his issues, but he clearly couldn't. And until reliable information comes out that
says that the rockets new otherwise,I'm not going to blame them for taking
that chance. All right, Well, I think we can wrap things right
here. We've covered so many anglesof this, the basketball side, the

(01:40:23):
team building side, now the personalside, I supposed the organizational culture.
We've attacked this from all angles,and ultimately that's what I wanted to do,
to give it a little bit ofspace before doing so. HOWO,
you had some things going on lastweek, So that's why I try to
keep the shows a bit short thannot just for the sake of, you
know, waiting for your return,that's part of it, but also to
get a little bit of space aswell. Now that this is basically a

(01:40:45):
week and a half old, Ithink, you know, it's a point
in which I think people are morecapable of sort of taking a step back
and looking at sort of the biggerpicture, how we got here, what
lessons are to be taken away,and hopefully, you know, look back
on this with a bit more nuancedas opposed to some of the panic and
motion that it happens in the immediateaftermath of a tragic situation like this one.
Anyway, this can be our KPJAepisode, and this can do it

(01:41:08):
until until he's ultimately traded or released, and of course at that point we'll
react in the coming days or weekswhenever that happens and tell you our perspective
on what the Rocket's got or didn'tget and what the takeaways from the transaction
are and what it means for theteam. And then of course around the
same time frame a little over twoweeks or a little under two weeks away,
excuse me, we have media dayon Monday the second, and then

(01:41:31):
the start of training camp on Tuesdayand the third, so we're gonna have
a lot more content in the verynear future. Just stay tuned. But
for one show, we've had enoughdiscussion and so we'll wrap it right here.
As I mentioned leading off the show, if you want to follow me
or pallow in the interim before ournext episode, the best place to do
it is on Twitter or x I'mon their at Ben Dubos. Pollo is
on there at Palo Alves, NBA, and if you follow the show on

(01:41:53):
Twitter the logger line and go tothe link tree in the bio. That's
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(01:42:14):
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(01:42:35):
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for listening, and please come backsoon for another new episode of the Logger Line.

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