Jeff Pearlman on HBO’s Winning Time and the modern NBA

Jeff Pearlman, bestselling author of the book (Showtime) on which HBO’s Winning Time television show is based, joins our Ben DuBose to discuss how storylines related to the 1980s Los Angeles Lakers shaped the modern NBA. Topics include Houston’s role as a foil to the Lakers; highlights and key moments from the show; and why it still has relevance to fans outside of Los Angeles.

Friday’s show also offers insight on the latest reports surrounding Kevin Porter Jr.’s assault arrest and his uncertain future with the Rockets and the NBA, including why a trade could be more realistic than some think.

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Cheers, Rockets fans, Welcome toThe lagger Line, an exclusive podcast from
the home of the Rockets, SportsTalk seven ninety. The lagger Line.
It's proudly served to you by CarboxClutch City Lagger. It is good Yeah,

(00:22):
Red Nation, get ready to getready, Get Ready. The lagger
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(00:45):
As always, I'm your host,bind Bo's editor of USA Today's Rocket
Squire and a contributor to Sports Talksseven ninety, the official flagship prodio station
of your Houston Rockets. Our usualco host and producer Powell Alves is out
today. He's helping family member move. He'll be back next week, when
we'll probably have even more to discussregarding the ongoing Kevin Porter Junior arrest situation
and the fallout for the Rockets andtheir roster. There's a new report out

(01:08):
in the last twenty four hours ofthis recording on Thursday evening that the Rockets
are looking to trade Kevin Porter Juniorrather than release him. In large part
that's to replace both his production andhis salary slot. He would still be
released, but ultimately released by theteam acquiring him. Now, whether the
Rockets will be able to do that, time will tell, because certainly there

(01:30):
is a pr angle to consider,and it's not as if he's a positive
asset at all when the team isgoing to have to cut him immediately for
a number of reasons, but ata bare minimum, it's something that the
Rockets should consider, in my opinion, and so we'll get into that more
in the coming days. It soundsas if her Kelly Echo of the Athletic
the Rockets want a resolution on that, be a trading Kevin or waiving him

(01:53):
by the start of training camp,which is the first week of October.
So we'll talk more micro the ongoingKevin Porter Junior situation and any new developments
that leak on that front in thecoming days. This show is going to
be a bit more macro. I'mthrilled to welcome and best selling author Jeff
Perlman, who wrote the book Showtime, Magic, Kareem Riley and the La

(02:16):
Lakers Dynasty of the nineteen eighties.That's the book which Winning Time, the
show chronicling those eighties Lakers on HBO. Max, Well, I suppose it's
just Max now. But regardless,if you're on NBA, Twitter or any
social media, you know, WinningTime is driving a lot of discourse these
days, especially during the NBA offseason. It's a great time to release

(02:37):
episodes, and so I'm going totalk to Jeff, who's someone I respect,
certainly for his acumen as a journalist, as a writer, as a
researcher, but also to pick hisbrain about how the themes reflected in that
book and in the show are thingsthat are mirrored today in the NBA because
it's not just a Lakers story.What's interesting is how so many story lines

(03:00):
connected to the nineteen eighties Lakers ledto the current NBA and many of the
power dynamics in place. I thinkit's also noteworthy from a Rocket standpoint that
two of LA's playoff runs in theeighties, nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty
six, were ended by the Rockets. In nineteen eighty one, that lay
the groundwork for Paul WestEd being firedand pat Riley ultimately getting the job and

(03:23):
then leading the dynasty moving forward.In nineteen eighty six, of course,
that was an opportunity for perhaps thegreatest Lakers Celtics series of all eighty six
Celtics, one of the best teamsin NBA history, and yet it didn't
happen because the Rockets knocked out theLakers in the Western Conference Finals. That
was the Game five buzzer beater byRalph Sampson that has not aired on the

(03:44):
television show yet. That would bein a season three, which we hope
is to come in the months oryears ahead. Right now, they're in
season two, which goes through thedrafting of Magic Johnson. That's when the
show starts in nineteen seventy nine,I believe, and season two continues through
the Lakers Celtics Finals in nineteen eightyfour. Anyway, we'll get to Jeff
in just a few minutes to leadoff, though, I do want to

(04:06):
address the Kevin Porter Junior situation briefly. Again. We'll have more insight with
Paolo in the coming days, butI just want to discuss why I think
the Rockets are going down this path, because I have seen some people asking
why not just release him? Andlet's be clear, I don't think they
actually can. The MBA's investigation hasjurisdiction, so the Rockets can't punish him.

(04:31):
As a result of the assault andstrangulation arrest in New York and the
related allegations against his long time oragainst Porter for his treatment and an alleged
abuse of his longtime girlfriend, theRockets have their hands tied as far as
waiving him or disciplining him in anyway in connection with this incident. The
NBA's investigation takes precedence, and thatwas a collectively bargained negotiation between the league

(04:59):
and its players. So the Rockets, even if and I agree the cleanest
route would simply be to wash yourhands and be done with this situation,
It's not that simple. There isan NBA investigation going on, but beyond
that, the Rockets do have toconsider their long term planning and beyond Kevin
Porter Junior or the basketball player.One way that Porter was potentially important to

(05:23):
this team was also with his contractalmost year to year, there was going
to be one option at the endof twenty twenty four, which certainly will
not be picked up now for twoseasons. But the point was that at
a year to year figure for aboutfifteen to sixteen million dollars, he was
ideal matching salary for trades down theline. In other words, and we've
covered this in our previous episodes,if a Joel Embiid or Zion Williamson or

(05:46):
some other star were to ask outthe way by the way Magic Johnson briefly
did with the nineteen eighty one LALakers. We'll talk about that correlation in
a few minutes with Jeff Perlman.But the Rockets wanted to be prepared financially
for the situation in which a superstarask out, because Houston should be an
attractive destination. Emai Udoka is acoach the players around the league respect.
There's a ton of young talent,it's one of the biggest markets in the

(06:10):
league. I think there's a lotof clear selling points to the Rockets,
and they do have future draft capitalthat's enough to tempt other teams, especially
the unprotected draft assets headed Houston's wayfrom Brooklyn, which now has zero to
superstars. That could really put theRockets in a good spot if a star
ask out. However, it's notjust about having the assets, and it's
not just about having your franchise beviewed as desirable by a star. Somewhere

(06:34):
else. You also have to beable to make it worth the trading teams
while and that doesn't mean just interms of draft capital. It also means
being able to make the financial mathwork sending out salary to the other team
that's in close proximity to the starplayer coming in that's not viewed as negative
on that team's long term books.And so the Rockets have a couple of

(06:57):
guys that are clear trade ships.Green and Jack Landale signed this offseason on
very year to year trade friendly dealswith about ten million dollars each. But
that's where Kevin Porter Junior, whohad a similar deal but at sixteen million
dollars, came in to play withregards to some of the long term planning.
So if the Rockets could conceivably notjust replace Kevin Porter Junior the basketball
player, which that is going tobe a hit for this coming season.

(07:20):
I talked about that in our KPJ. Themes show on Monday, shortly after
the news if his arrest broke andthe writing was on the wall in my
opinion already that he would never playfor the Rockets again. Look, he
averaged nineteen points, six assists,six rebounds, per game. He's entering
his fifth NBA season, which makeshim somewhat of a veteran on a young
team. Last couple of years,he's been one of the best catch and
shoot players in the league. Yeah, it is going to be lost,

(07:43):
even if he's no longer the startingpoint guard anymore. Fred van Fleet,
it was always going to take overthat role after the Rockets brought him in
from Toronto. Look, there isa basketball head, and so I do
think the Rockets want to replace Kevinin the rotation with someone capable. But
I also think, and this isperhaps the bigger consider they need that salary
slot or something close to it filledso that it can work its way into

(08:07):
potential trades down the line, becausethe Rockets are above the salary cap.
Even if the NBA ultimately decides toavoid Kevin Porter Junior's contract because he violated
the domestic violence policy, which isabsolutely possible, we don't know that now.
The NBA's investigation is probably going totake a bit of time, and
it may also depend on exactly whathappens with the criminal cases. Even if
the salary is avoided, it's notlike the Rockets can then go out and

(08:31):
spend that on another player, No, they're above the salary caps, so
they would basically lose that sixteen milliondollars altogether. And then to make the
math work on a trade for anembed or as ion type, you would
have to eat into your current coreguys that are essential or close to essential
to your current success. The ideais to have as much tradeable salary that's

(08:54):
not essential to your on court formula, so that when a superstar asks out
and sort of add him to yourteam while not subtracting all that much from
what you already have in place andwhat makes you attractive to that guy in
the first place. And so KevinPorter Junior with that year to year salary
for about sixteen million dollars a year, that was very useful because it would

(09:15):
be very easy to offload. Andnow that he wasn't the starting point,
Garden was probably going to be comingoff the bench no matter what. It's
not like it'd be a huge hitto the team. And so perhaps the
Rockets. It's not going to beeasy, but maybe I suggested on Twitter
or x where you can follow meat Ben Dubo's Landry Shammitt of Washington might
be a possibility someone that's making abouteleven million dollars a year for three straight

(09:37):
years. It's not as if ashooter and he's an upper thirties percent from
three guy. It's not like thatever becomes too negative of a contract that's
always desirable to contenders. And thelast couple of years, I believe you're
either non guaranteed or team options forShammut, So that might be somebody the
Rockets can target. The Wizards alreadyappear to be in tank mode, so
as long as the Rockets can incentivizethem with draft capital and the porting from

(10:00):
Sean Sharrania, who broke the storylate Wednesday that the Rockets are actively engaged
with multiple teams trying to trade KPJhas indicated the Rockets are trying to attach
multiple second run picks to get someoneto not so much take Kevin on,
but to use Kevin's salary figure sothat the Rockets can then bring back a
salary close to that same ballpark range. Now there is a pr angle to

(10:26):
consider, and I've seen some pushingback that have said, look, it's
inappropriate for anyone to potentially benefit fromthe situation, he should be cut immediately,
although that can't happen again because theNBA investigation. But there's some people
that are just uncomfortable talking about KevinPorter Jr. In these terms anyway,
be a basketball financial and look,I don't blame you. This is a

(10:46):
very complicated, very serious issue,and people can feel how they want to
feel. There's not just one clearright answer here. People are going to
interpret this different ways. And asI said our pod on Monday reacting to
it, I completely understand if youdon't want to talk about the basketball angles

(11:07):
at all. This is a veryserious situation. What he did is unacceptable,
and if you don't want to talkabout the basketball angles, I completely
understand. However, this is abasketball podcast. This is what we do
here at the Loggerline. We lookinto the minutia, and my personal opinion
is that the pr angle should notand in my opinion, it probably will

(11:31):
not be that bad for the Rocketsif they trade him or the trading team
that acquires him and then releases himbecause he isn't on the roster. I
think a lot of this is superficialin nature because we're in a society,
especially on social media, where everythingbecomes a topic of debate, and it's

(11:54):
very easy to lose sight of thebigger picture. The bigger picture here is
making sure that Kevin Porter Junior doesnot play for the Houston Rockets or any
NBA team for a long time.As long as he is released, I
don't think it matters whether he's tradedand then released, whether he's trade up

(12:15):
released from the Rockets, or ifhe's just put on administrative leave by the
NBA for an investigation which takes perhapslonger than we think because maybe it's correlated
in some way with developments in thecriminal case, and they're you know,
evidence proceedings and everything that accompanies that, which in the legal system can potentially
take some time. As long asthe outcome is Kevin Porter Junior not playing

(12:37):
basketball and hopefully not getting any money, although again that's the NBA's decision to
make, not the Rockets. Aslong as that's the outcome, that's what
matters. What matters is not rewardingKevin Porter Junior, not putting him on
television on court at Toyota Center,not supporting him in any way after the
awful thing he appears to have donein New York. As long as that

(13:01):
is followed. I don't think thespecific mechanism by which he's ousted from the
NBA, be it released by theRockets, traded by the Rockets to bring
in someone that can replace his productionslash salary spot or placed to administrative leave,
and just in a long term holdingpattern. I ultimately don't think that

(13:22):
matters. As long as he isnot playing basketball. That is what matters.
That is what counts from a prperspective, and a lot of what's
being discussed now, in my opinion, is just very short term thinking that
in the grand scheme doesn't mean muchof anything. I say this a lot,
but you do not have to fireoff a tweet. You do not

(13:43):
have to have a take. Andin this case, is it awkward to
discuss, Yes, I mean thisis all ikey, It's gross. It's
a difficult situation to think about atall. What he's accused of doing is
absolutely horrible. But in terms ofthis mechanism of how he's removed from the
Rockets and the NBA, I reallydon't think it matters. I don't think

(14:05):
it's worth much of a debate aslong as he actually is removed. So
that's why I think the Rockets areconsidering this. They've got to look out
for themselves. Kevin Porter Junior isn'tgoing to be a part of the Rockets
future in my opinion, But it'snot like they don't have a basketball team
to put together. They're trying tobuild a contender in becoming years, so
they've got to consider their angles.I mean, they're going to keep Kevin

(14:28):
Porter Junior away from the team.It's already been reported by the Athletic that
he's not going to come to trainingcamp. Fact, Kelly Eco reports that
the Rockets went a resolution and havingPorter off the roster be to trade or
waving before training camp. So theyget what matters in the short term,
but long term, there is ablueprint when it comes to building a contender,
and if you could fill that salaryslot, then yeah, it does

(14:48):
give you more options down the line. So it's worth it to the Rockets
to explore that. Now, maybeit doesn't happen for one reason or another.
I think it's sort of difficult becauseobviously a team trading for Kevin Porter
Junior to waive him would have tobasically not be taking this season very seriously
and before the year starts there aren'ta lot of teams that are all out

(15:09):
tanking. That's why I suggested LandryShammitt with the Wizards. The Wizards are
one of the few teams I thinkat this point you can say is clearly
not trying to win at all thisseason. A lot of teams, Yeah,
you might could do it if itwas closer to the trade deadline and
they had a bad record, Butright now, you need someone that's willing
to subtract from their team a playerthat's a decent salary and at least could
somewhat help the Rockets basketball wise.There's not a ton of teams that are

(15:30):
willing to do that, so there'sno guarantee a deal gets done. But
at least the Rockets can't explore this, and I think it's what they're doing.
I don't think that it's disrespectful tothe victim for them to do so
that's just my opinion. Obviously,you can have your own, and this
is one where reasonable people can disagree. This is a very sensitive situation.

(15:50):
I understand that, But from myperspective, as long as Kevin Porter Junior
doesn't play for the Rockets or inthe NBA, then Ultimately, that's what
really matters. So we'll see ifwe have resolution on that in the coming
days or if it drags out untilagain, it could be up until the
eve of training camp. That's theonly true deadline, not just for the
Rockets, but around the NBA.That's when a lot of teams want to

(16:11):
sort out any of their lingering rosterquestions so that the guys that they bring
to training camp in put on stagemedia day are going to be a part
of the team for this coming season. So potentially that could be two and
a half more weeks until training campsstarted around the league in early October,
So we'll see how quick the resolutionis. Does it drag out or do
the Rockets just move on sooner ratherthan later. We'll talk more about that

(16:33):
in the coming days either way.With Polo Alves and are I suppose rumor
slash news reactions show this is justsome of my initial thoughts after the reporting
in the last twenty four hours,which makes it very clear that Kevin Porter
Junior is done with the Rockets.It's just a matter of exactly what the
mechanism is to get him off theroster, be it a trade or being
waived. Stay tuned for more detailson that in the coming days. Anyway,

(16:56):
that's enough Kevin Porter Junior for oneshow. We'll talk more with in
the coming days, but for now, I want to get to our guest
of the week. That's best sellingauthor Jeff Pearlman, extremely well respected sports
journalist, and we're going to betalking Showtime, his book about the nineteen
eighties LA Lakers, which spawned thecurrent show Winning Time on Max. Let's

(17:17):
get Jeff connected. All right,I believe we've got Jeff connected. Jeff,
how's it going you with us?I am here. Let's start for
our audience with the Rockets that mightnot know you other than an occasional tweet
that they see from Jeff Pearlman onTwitter. Just walk us through. I
suppose your career biography, your historywith NBA coverage, what it was that

(17:40):
led you to want to write Showtime, and then ultimately the process of going
from Showtime to HBO picking it upfor Winning Time the series. That's quite
a lot. I was never anMBAD writer. I've never even an NBA
writer. I was a baseball writerSports Illustrated for right years, and then
I started writing books and I guessmy first four books. My first book

(18:03):
was Baseball. My second book wasBaseball. My third book was football,
my fourth book was baseball. Myfifth book was football. But I've always
been an NBA guy, and I'vealways been a nostalgic guy. So I
thought the Showtime Lakers would make areally good topic and a really good book,
really fascinating, and I kind ofdove in based on, you know,
being a kid in the eighties andwatching Magic and Cream from Afar in

(18:26):
New York and kind of falling inlove with the whole model of it all.
And that's kind of what did it. And then the book came out,
it sold really well. A screenwriternamed Jim Hacks, who I had
never heard of, who wasn't thatwhat I'm known at the time, came
to me interested in buying the rights. I said, okay, I had
zero expectations, like if you takeall your expectations in life and some track

(18:48):
to all the expectations from your expectations, those are my expectations. Like I
had not I didn't think it wouldhappen. But through the years I'd hear
a little things from Gym every nowand then, Oh, this person's interested
this person's interested, never believed it, never believed it. And then I
don't know, like five years ago, HBO reaches out and they start sort
of casting, and here we sitnow with the end of season two on

(19:12):
Sunday. So one thing I findnoteworthy about your story and your coverage of
the Lakers. So, I knowyou went to University of Delaware, correct,
yep, and you grew up yougrew up a Mets fan. Although
we talked about this before, Iknow you gave up your fandom when you
went into national sports media coverage.But the reason I bring that up you

(19:34):
were not a Los Angeles kid.The Lakers were not your team. This
is not a story of someone writingabout their team. You found the Lakers
particularly interesting from afar, and Ifind that noteworthy on this podcast where we
cover our team that's not the Lakers, because I'm sure some people will look
at the book and look at theseries and say, if I'm not a

(19:55):
Lakers fan, why does this matterto me? And I think part of
the beauty of your book and thebeauty of this show is that the Lakers
story in the eighties is so symbolicwhen it comes to ultimately the evolution of
the NBA as a whole and whatit became today. So if you could
just walk us through, I guessyour intrigue with the Lakers and why the

(20:17):
story is relevant to NBA fans wellbeyond people that just care about the purple
and gold. What's kind of funnyyou asked that. Like the other day,
there was a Reddit chat about theLakers and about I think my books,
and I was being, you know, the self indulgent author single what
people are writing, and someone wroteabout how I clearly have at They were
talking about my second Laker book,which is called Three Rink Circus. It

(20:40):
was about the chat Kobe era,and they were talking about how I clearly
hate Kobe Bryant. It's clear theauthor hates Kobe Bryant. And I'm like,
I didn't have any thoughts on KobeBryant, Like I knew in the
Basketball Player and I respect him,but I wasn't a Laker fan or a
Laker hater. I didn't care.And it's kind of I actually think there's
a value in that. I honestlydo. I think there's a value in
that when you enter like I don'treally love books, when It's like,

(21:06):
man, I grew up worshiping WalterPeyton, and now I'm going to write
the book about how much I lovedWalter Peyton. Like, I think you're
better off having authors go in I'mnot just talking about me. I'm talking
about in any subject, go inwith true objectivity, with an unemotional view
of what happened and what transpired.And for me personally, like I was,

(21:30):
I was a drawn to the storybecause I was a kid in New
York, a diehard New Jersey Netsfan. And then that sucked and it
was an error when you couldn't watchevery game like the Lakers and Celtics was
special, and that was on TV. It was special when you'd sit in
front of your television and it beBird and Magic, be Kareem and Parasity,
McAllen Rambis and you know, MichaelCooper and Dennis Johnson and it felt

(21:53):
big and it felt special. Andthe palm trees outside the Forum, you
know that they would show the coast, the Laker girls, the sunshine,
Jack Nicholson like all that stuff.So for me, it wasn't really about
loving the Lakers. It was abouthaving a feeling as a twelve year old
boy and in a way always chasingthat does that makes sense on an individual

(22:15):
level. I think certainly the storyof Magic is a huge part of the
book. Obviously, the television showone of the very recent episodes of Winning
Time on Max showed Magic demanding atrade in nineteen eighty one, which was
almost unheard of at the time.Now, what was also unheard of He

(22:36):
had recently signed a twenty five year, twenty five million dollar contract, basically
a lifetime service to the organization.So there were a lot of unprecedented things
going on. But you flashed forwardto the NBA today and you have marquee
players using their leverage as the playerempowerment era. Fans in Houston went through
it with James Harden just a coupleof years ago, flexing their muscle and

(22:59):
forced their way out of town orto get help, whatever it may be.
Magic was one of the first examplesof that, and so I find
that story. You know, hedidn't ultimately get the trade. What happened
was west Head got fired. Butdo you see I guess that being sort
of the foundation, the starting spotof where the NBA ultimately ended up with
some of the player empowerment teams.I mean, I do I think when

(23:22):
you talk about player empowerment in sports, because for the longest, longest,
longest time that the owners had allthe power and the players had almost no
power. They were employees, theywere chattle. They didn't matter if they
got hurt, it was next manup, that didn't matter. And you
know, the first guy to reallystep up was actually happened in baseball when

(23:42):
Kirk Flood of the same there asCardinals refused to trade and actually led to
a sort of equitaball layer of freeagency. But in basketball, I mean,
there aren't many stories of it.And Magic comes along and he knows
he has power, and he knowshe's Mark Key, and he does not

(24:03):
like this coach and he does notthink he's a good coach, so he
uses that the leverage of it allto sort of get Paul West had fired.
And I don't think you can findanother example of a player until that
point having enough power to get hiscoach fired. And I don't I can't
say that was the beginning of theera, Like I think there was a
big gap in time for that andsort of I don't know, Lebron hardened

(24:26):
guys like that really exercising true powerin this, you know, pretty amazing
way. But it definitely was thefirst. So another angle of the west
Head firing that I think is reallyrelevant to our audience is the fact that
it came on the heels of thembeing upset in the nineteen eighty one playoffs
by the Rockets. The year beforethat, the Lakers had won the title

(24:47):
and Magic's rookie season that's basically thefirst season of Winning Time. Then eighty
one they had this disappointing asset.There's a great scene on the television show
of west Head and Riley having somethingof a falling out on the plane ride
back from Houston, and ultimately theylose the series. WestEd doesn't lose his
job that offseason, but basically it'sin the works. And then once they

(25:10):
have somewhat of a sluggish start tothe upcoming year, Magic issues the trade
demand after the game against the Jazz, and within a day or so west
Ted has gone. But really itstarted with that series loss to the Rockets
in the nineteen eighty one playoffs.If you're lucky enough to get a season
three of Winning Time, which Ihope you do, then I'm sure the
nineteen eighty six Western Conference Finals,when that would have been the ultimate Lakers

(25:33):
Celtics showdown against the best Boston teamof all, didn't happen because the Lakers
lost to the Rockets in eighty six. So really two of those better Laker
teams eighty one and eighty six lostto the Rockets in the playoffs. So
to me, there's sort of aLaker foil and that Obviously in the eighties
everyone wanted to see Lakers Celtics,and there was a couple of years of
Lakers sixers, but the Rockets,when you look at the Western Conference,

(25:56):
that might have been amongst the moreconsider foils that they had over this run.
Where does Houston fit into their story? I mean, you kind of
nawed it. That first Rocket teamwas a five hundred team. In fact,
they were below five hundred team,and the Lakers weren't mess and the
Rockets had Moses Malone, and MosesMalone was kind of a Kaream killer.

(26:17):
There was no there's no center whoplayed Kareem better than Moses Malone. He
was just a brute, an absoluteroute. And then you know, the
second time he had Ralph Sampson andKi Malajuan when they were sort of not
at the height of their powers butsort of you know this thing. So,
you know, I can't say theRockets are the Celtics, but if
you look back at that time periodand say who was the Western Conference team

(26:38):
who gave them the most actual problems, it would be the Rockets. And
that The other weird thing is theRockets weren't that talented, Like they had
some good players, you know,they had like Mitchell Wiggins and Robert Reid
and you know, a LaJuan Sampson, Moses guys like that. They weren't
dying, you know, they weren'ta dynastic franchise. But they were stubborn
and kind of pain in the assand they always Kareem very hard. Yeah,

(27:00):
I guess ultimately that was the story. They had Moses in nineteen eighty
one, Hakim and Sampson in eightysix, and the episode that just wrapped
up earlier this week actually had theSixers beating the Lakers in eighty three,
with Moses dominating Kareem in that inthat series. So ultimately, I think
it's the fact that the Rockets wereable to sort of neutralize Kareem with their

(27:22):
bigs. That's what made them thefoil, right, Yeah, I would
say so. And just you know, sometimes you catch a team off their
game, like the Lakers are offtheir game. They're kind of a nest
rest head. Everything was kind ofrunning its course. And yeah, I
mean they weren't better than the Lakers, like they certainly were more talent with
the Lakers at that point, butthey had their number, and you know
the long history in sports of teams, lesser teams having the numbers of better

(27:44):
teams knowing how to play them,knowing the angles and knowing how to coach
against them. And also west Headwas really predictionable at that point, I
mean he was. He was.He went from a really dynastic system or
dynastics around like the real dynamic systemjust sort of very pedestrian and predictable,
and the Laker players were set upwith it. And the rock gets me
where it was coming. So let'stalk about season two, which is in
progress right now. As mentioned,season one was a bit more narrow talking

(28:08):
about drafting Magic and then his rookieseason, which was as good as rookie
a rookie season that the NBA hasever seen, culminating with the championship,
and then things get a bit moremixed the next few years. We talked
about the west Head firing and movingto pat Riley. To be one of
the more interesting themes of season twoso far is watching pat Riley take over

(28:30):
and sort of balance. I guesswhen he's the assistant to west Head,
he's what's thought of now as aplayers coach. There's the scenes and the
television show of him working with Magicone on one, and the players think,
clearly they're more comfortable going to himthan they are going to west Head.
But ultimately, when pat gets thejob, it turns out that,

(28:52):
of course you need a healthy balancebetween being a player's coach but also having
their respect. And I think theactor does a great job of, you
know, illustrating that what he findshe has to do to you know,
command the respect of these men,and ultimately they take off. In the
nineteen eighty two and nineteen eighty throughplayoffs, one championship got to the NBA
Finals. The other time, whatwould you say, I guess number one
about to me the actor that playspat Riley, it's in a phenomenal job,

(29:17):
but Secondly, I think that storyis so important to the modern NBA
because you hear all the talk aboutneeding players coaches. That's how you work
within the confines of this player empowerment. Players want certain coaches, but then
there's a balance that's to be hadbetween Yeah, you want to be you
know, nice to the players,you want them to buy in, but
you also need to command their respecttoo, And that's what a lot of
these episodes of season two are Rileylaying the groundwork for Yeah. I mean,

(29:41):
well, first of all, theguy who plays Riley, Adrian Brody,
he's like, if you look uphis resume, he's no joke like,
he's a great actor. He startedhis careering a pianist. I think
you want the Academy Awards the pianist. He's awesome and he channels it really
well. And yeah, I mean, you know, there's funny when I
cover baseball Sports Illustrated, there's thispattern to a seat, which is the

(30:03):
team has a really strict manager.It works for a while, players get
tired of his act and they saywe need a new direction. Than they
hire a guy who's more of aplayers manager, and that goes well for
a while until the players walk allover him and the general manager says,
we needed and you know, we'reguy, and it just goes on and
on, back and forth forever.And the Lakers, you know, they

(30:25):
had Jerry West as a coach fora while. He was a pain and
the ass. Then they went toJack McKinney. He lasted very short because
of the bike action. Paul Westsaid was kind of a marshmallow. Then
you go away from the marshmallow andback to steel and not what pat Riley
was. And Riley at first waskind of a player's coach, and then
he realized you can't be a player'scoach and he couldn't have these guys walk.
It's harder. You have a teamfull of superstars, very hard to

(30:47):
be to be in charge. Andhe really had to develop his voice,
which he did over time. Sobasically was a matter of sort of becoming
pat Riley. You know what storylinesthat stood out to you the most of
this season, I mean, certainlythe Riley development. I think Larry Bird,
the Bird Magic Rivalry is awesome.Sean Patrick Small who plays Bird,

(31:07):
is terrific, so good. Imean, I've really loved this season.
I've loved. I loved it morewatching it now than I did when I
watched the episodes when we were workingon it. Like I thought, the
development of Bird in Indiana State wasmagical, absolutely magical. Him going there
and playing in boots and jeans isone of the best scenes I've seen in
a long time on a TV show. And then Riley when he starts screaming

(31:30):
at the officials, I mean screamingat his team in the locker room and
basically chewing him out one by one, also magical. I've I mean love
this show. It makes me sadbecause I think it's not probably I'd say
the odds of a season three arenot high, and I've loved everything.
I've loved every single minute of it. It's been one of the great joys
of my life. What can fansdo to help their potentially be a season

(31:51):
three? I think nothing at thispoint. I think enjoyed the show,
watch it, But I think theodds of a third season are pretty well.
To be honest with you, okay, I'm assuming that nights end.
But just I mean, is itjust ratings? Is it everything else going
on in the industry? What's sortof the driving force I mean it's an
expensive show, and yeah it is. It's a very expensive show and we're
in the middle of a strike wherepeople can't promote like they used to.

(32:14):
There's this a lot of you know, there's a lot of wind. I
mean, who the hell knows.Maybe if it you know, raps really
strong. But it's hard and Ican't be you know, it's funny.
I can't be mad about anything.This has been. This has been the
blessing of my career. You know, Like I've been able to be a
writer, which is awesome. Itwas a dream of mine. I've had
books, I've had best sellers,like all this stuff I never anticipated happening.

(32:35):
But when people would say, isthis like a dream come true having
a TV show? I would say, not even close, because I never
had the wherewithal but I think Iwould ever have a TV show. So
like, we just had a bunchof the cast members over for the season
sixth party at my house and it'sjust like all these delightful, creative,
wonderful people, actors, directors,writers, editors, and I've loved every

(32:58):
minute of it. It's been,I mean the best, it's been,
truly the best. If you everget a chance of a book. You
writer an article you're right turned intoa TV show. Jump at it because
it's a golden moment in life.I noticed that Daryl Moorey former Rockets GM,
currently president of basketball Operations in Philadelphia, his daughter was one of the
production assistants. I'm imagining in termsof just the overall infrastructure that you were

(33:22):
describing. It's not just the actorswho are great, in terms of the
writers, the researchers, the producers, what you have to do. And
yeah, I guess it makes sensewith how expensive this show is because the
production value, the research making surethat the historical accuracy is there. I
mean, it has to be amassive overall undertaking to bring in so many

(33:44):
people. Yet it provides opportunities forpeople to sort of get their start,
like Darrel's daughter. So I'm assumingthat's one of the sad things that the
show goes away is Well, Iguess it's sad, but it's also you
know, you look back and gotto be really fulfilling for you that this
provided so many opportunities for people.Yeah, but it's sad. I like
the number of young actors who gota shot in this show. Guys who

(34:04):
like Quincy isa who plays Magic.Nobody knew who Quincy Isaiah was before this.
He was a Division three college footballplayer who would act acted regionally in
like Kalamazoo Michigan. Solomon used whoplays Kareem Nobody you know Solomon used as
a professor college professor. Sean PatrickSmile plays Larry Bird first Raw, Like,
there's so many guys that this wasa breakthrough experience and so I am

(34:25):
usually happy that this has happened.Alante, the sus who plays Michael Cooper
was flipping houses in Maryland aspiring tobe an actor, gets his gig is
fantastic, like what I really want, like my and I'm fifty one years
old, and a lot of theseactors are in their twenties maybe early thirties,
Like nothing would make me happier thanis ten years from now, and
a lot of these guys are workingactors in Hollywood, and they have film

(34:47):
credits and TV credits and I'll beable to see all Wow, they started
on a show based in my book, and that's a freaking awesome, awesome
little feeling of legacy. That's awesome. So season two is only seven episod
right, correct, So the finale'scoming up? Correct? Are y'all doing
anything special as far as like castget togethers, promo anything to accompany that.

(35:09):
No, because the strike, theycan't do anything. Oh, that's
right, that's right again. Wehad a little get together in my house.
It was lovely, but it waskind of like, we can't post
any pictures. You know, it'sno good deal, but we can't posting
pictures. No, it's not promotinganything. We're not promoting the show.
It's just and it's weird because likethe show has stars in it, like
not just stars, but stars.John c Riley, Adrian Brody, Sally

(35:30):
Field was in it, you know, across the board, Jason Segal,
like a ton of used names,and like I'm the guy promoting the show,
the guy who wrote the book,Like that's a set that is not
a good thing. You do notwant the guy who wrote the book to
be the main guy promoting the show. Like that's not a good place to
be. But because of this strike, I'm not sagged, so I can

(35:51):
do it, and I have everyone'sblessing to do it. But I'm really
the only one who can one thingI was really surprised to see on your
Twitter time on a couple of weeksyou were going back and forth with someone,
not in a confrontational way, butthere was a writer, I want
to say, from Boston that saidhe didn't like the Jerry Buss coverage.
Am I remembering that correctly? No, Jerry West, Oh, Jerry West

(36:14):
okay? I was thinking, wasJerry Buss okay? Which to me,
I mean those storylines are paramount totelling the story. I wanted to ask
you about Jerry Buss because to me, I mean, first off, acting
is fantastic there as well, butBuss's story as somewhat of a you know,
an owner that comes into the forefront. I feel like that's something that

(36:36):
was a little bit ahead of itstime too. You see that more and
more today, clearly here in Houston. Tilman Fritita owns the Rockets. Tilman
Pritita, you see him all thetime on CNBC. He's got a pretty
powerful family. His son is progressivelydoing more things within basketball operations. Back
then, at least from my recollection. Now, keep in mind, I
was born in nineteen eighty four,but it didn't feel like in my youth

(36:57):
that sports owners were nearly as inthe limelight as many of them are today.
And it felt like Jerry Boss wasone of the first people to sort
of, you know, not justadvance his team, but sort of you
know, use his own profile,flex his own muscle in that process as
well. What stands out to youabout sort of Jerry Buss being something of
a trendsetter for where sports ownership isheaded. Well, nowadays it's a gateway

(37:19):
to celebrity, like grow having asports team. You're not just owning a
sports team, you're actually become apublic figure in the celebrity. Back in
the day, that wasn't the case. Right, most people could name the
owner of the Boston Celtics or theNewton of Patriots or whatever. And nowadays
everyone knows him. There are celebrities, they're famous. It's brand building and
not just the brand of your sportsteam, but your overall brand. Everyone
knows Robert Kraft. Now before hewas just before the Patriots, he was

(37:42):
craft as a you know, thecheese, Like nobody knew anything about him.
So in a way, Jerry Buss, who was just a you know,
he was an engineer from Wyoming,and he buys his team and he's
all in on the team, andhe's a playboy, and he's out on
the ballot. He's a freaking magicof owning a basketball team and being the
face of the basketball team. AndI do feel like you know nowadays,

(38:02):
Mark Cuban is basically what Jerry Busswas, except Jerry Buss was the blueprint
of how to do it. Andmore to the point, Jerry Buss was
the first guy to really, reallytruly truly see and the NBA game as
an entertainment. As an entertainment venyou're not a sports ven here, so
you're not just going to watch basketballanymore. In fact, you're barely going

(38:22):
to watch basketball nowadays. You're goingto watch the cheerleaders. You're going to
catch a T shirt in the stands. You're going to watch a halftime show.
Maybe it's a bunch of trailers,maybe it's a band, who the
hell knows. You're hearing music asthe games are going on. It is
the food, you know, It'slike going to a very fancy restaurant.
Now you can go to a barin the arena, multiple bars in the
arena. Jerry Buss was a gatewayto changing the way basketball we're seen all

(38:47):
right, I got a couple bonusquestions for you that are unrelated to winning
time. You wanted to be keptin the dark, so I'll throw this
on you now. Jeff, I'vealways looked up to you as someone that's
a bit of a thought leader forjournalism as a whole. You weigh in
on topics of the day. Iknow you've over your distinguished career, had
a lot of stories that have sortof been at the intersection of run of

(39:09):
the mill sports items and serious news. The big thing for the Houston Rockets
this week is the arrest of KevinPorter Junior in New York City. He's
likely done with the team, buthow it gets to that is very much
a question. Do they trade him, do they release him? Does he
get put on administrative leave? Becauseof course, the NBA is it has
your assiction to go through its owninvestigation first, and as a media person

(39:32):
covering the team, it sort ofputs me in an awkward spot because there's
some readers, some listeners they wantto know the basketball angle. They want
to know what happens to the team'srotation. Because he started one hundred and
twenty games the last two seasons.They want to know what happens to the
salary slot. Can they replace him? There's also other people that say this
is horrible, which it is,assuming the allegations were drew, which to

(39:57):
this point evidence seems quite strong,and say this insensitive to talk about,
you know, the basketball angles orthe salary angles or anything else. How
would you advise media people, Iguess balance the fact that there is a
basketball story versus the reality that obviouslythere's a much more serious human story at
the root of this. You know, somewhere along the line, media companies

(40:22):
have started thinking about how reporting astory is going to affect the profit and
also the perception of the company itself. And as weird as this sounds when
I came up, it really wasn'tthat way. And if a player got
arrested, you were covering the arresthard, and you weren't thinking, Oh,
are is this going to turn readersoff? Or do they really just

(40:43):
want to know this. You'd coverthe arrest because a famous person who's directly
impacts your team because he's on yourteam got arrest it, and you'd be
not only would you be reporting it, you'd be digging into it, and
you'd want to be able to talkto people who are involved. You'd want
to find people impacted by it,and it would be you'd have the news
story and then you'd also have thebasketball story about how this impacts the Rockets

(41:04):
and blah blah blah blah blah blah, but the main story would be about
the arrest and about this guy inhis life and how did he reach this
point. And I do feel likeone thing we've done in media that I
do find very frustrating, but Iam an old bitter man at this point
is we've gotten away from real reporting, and it's we're just always thinking about
what is a reader going to thinkabout this? What is a reader going
to think about us writing this insteadof just saying, wait, this is

(41:27):
a story, this is news.We need to report it hard because that's
what news outlets were supposed to do. So basically follow the story. In
yeah, all that college a story. That's the thing. We always follow
the story. And you know whatelse, Like I have a friend who's
covering a college team and the sportsinformation director is upset over the way he's
covering the team and called his bossand said, I don't like the way

(41:50):
your reporters covering the team, andto me that all that stuff it's just
crap, it's just garbage. Like, we are reporters. We report.
That is what we are supposed todo. And I understand there are fan
sites that don't do that and that'sfine, But mainstream media, you're just
supposed to report, and you're supposedto make people feel uncomfortable if they don't
like hearing the truth. That's justhow you do it. And if some

(42:10):
member the uson Rockets got arrested doingX, Y and Z, you have
to report the hell out of thatand get the story. Like when I
was at Sports Illustrated, we wouldjust you know, some guy, some
major athlete got arrested, or youknow, it was caught it a strip
club, store coke or blah blahblah. Like we would dive into it
and we'd report the hell of itbecause we were sports reporters and that's what

(42:30):
you do. You're not you're combiningnews and sports into one packet. And
I don't see that as much todayand it kind of sucks. Yeah,
I mean, I would agree thatit's the combination of the two that some
people have a problem with, Butat the end of the day, it's
both a news story and a sportsstory. I mean, the root of
it, of course, is thathe's been arrested for following the assault and

(42:51):
strangulation. That's horrible, And assomeone that follows the team, there's also
a story as far as what thatmeans to what they're trying to do this
season and in future seasons. AndI guess the truth is you cover all
of it, and you know,let the chips fall as they may as
far as you know, if areader doesn't want to read it, they
can skip it. For reader doesn'twant to listen to it, or a
listener that is, they can skipthat episode. But I guess the answer

(43:13):
is just cover all of it,cover the news, cover the sports value,
and let the reader or the listener, I guess, just leave it
to them to read whatever they want. Right. The thing that stands out
today more than ever is good reporting, because you see less of it than
ever before. So if you canreport the hell out of a story and
wind up with a really good piecewith a lot of details and a lot
of information where the reader goes,holy crap, I didn't know that,

(43:37):
or the listener goes holy crap.I didn't know that You've done a great
job, and too often nowadays,in this era of Twitter and TikTok and
quick turnarounds, you don't see that. And ultimately, even if readers say
they don't want it, you winthe day if you report the hell out
of a story. Yeah, Iagree, all right. The last question
for you, and you weigh inon this topic a lot of fanboy media.

(44:00):
I know it ranks you. Yougrew up a Mets fan, you
gave that up when you started coveringMLB for Sports Illustrated, and I completely
agree with you. In an idealisticsense. Sports journalism is at its best,
just like any form of journalism,when there's detachment for better or for

(44:21):
worse. The subject you're covering shouldnot know your bias going into the conversation.
Where I think this gets tricky isthe financial incentives of this industry.
There are so many less jobs nowcompared to the way things were even twenty
years ago. Teams don't want lesscoverage. That's how you started seeing more

(44:45):
blogs get credentialed and whatnot. Becauselocal radio stations and newspapers don't have the
columnists the reporters they had twenty yearsago, and teams don't want less coverage,
so inevitably this has opened the doorto prudential people that would not have
been there twenty years ago. It'salso made the job more challenging for traditional

(45:08):
media, which I sympathize with,because there's a segment of readers that now
think the traditional media should be biased, should be fans as well, and
obviously that's not what this profession wasfounded on, and so you know,
on social media, it's very easyfor people that care about this issue to
sort of pick on the fanboy media. For me, the root of the

(45:30):
problem isn't so much the fanboy media. It's the lack of revenue for the
industry period, the fact that whenthings flipped from print to digital, we've
still never recouped the advertising money thatwas flowing in under the print model.
And so the fanboy media is sortof a byproduct of the fact that,
look, if you're not giving fulltime jobs to people covering these teams,

(45:52):
then the people willing to work oncontract for you know, one hundred bucks
just to cover a game on anight or a weekend are disproportionately more likely
to be fans. And I'm curioussure to take on that because I feel
like a lot of people talk aboutthe journalism side of it, and it
is sad, but there's also aneconomic story, and it's sort of like

(46:14):
the fanboys, if you will,are a result of the revenues not being
where they were twenty years ago.So I guess, how do you factor
not just the way things should be, but also adjusting to the financial landscape
that we're in. So there's adon't say her name, but there's a
reporter in Colorado and she she's beentweeting a lot about Dion Sanders and she

(46:38):
works. I think it's a she'sa sports anchor for the CBS affiliate in
Denver. I know who you're talkingabout, okay, And she tweeted she
keeps tweeting about Dion and which isfine, obviously. And she tweeted a
picture the other day of Dion Sandersposing for a photo with her and her
parents, and she tweeted about howhe couldn't be any nicer of a human

(47:00):
being and also what a gift heis to us, And it sounded like
a freaking member of a call likeit was so horrifying. I'm not kidding.
It was like, we are solucky to have him at and I
was like, yeah, okay,admittedly, Dan Sanders has been great for
Colorado. He's done an amazing job. Like you were right, one hundred
percent, he has done a greatjob, but like he is a gift

(47:22):
to us and posing asking him toshoot a photo with your parents, like,
and I just think, like areyou, like what do you what
do you want to be? Doyou want to be a reporter? Are
you? Are you just in itto meet famous people? Are you just
in it to pose for Twitter photos? Are you? You know? She's
actually the woman who's actually a formercheerleader, no journalism experience, and she's

(47:43):
a sports anchor for a network TV. And it's like, what the hell
are we doing? I don't evenI can't even be mad at her.
I don't think he knows any better, but like, what are we doing?
And I don't have a great answerfor you, Like we are kind
of screwed, Like the industry haslost a ton of money. People aren't
putting the resources in it used tobe. I mean, you know,
my dream coming up was to writefor Sports Illustrated. Nobody's dreaming writing for

(48:07):
sports illustrating more sports illustrate barely exists. The Athletic has cut people back,
ESPN has cut people back. Thebig ease are the Washington Post in the
New York Times really for sports nowadays, and they only have so many jobs,
so there's no I always tell peoplenow, it used to be when
I was coming up, the goalof being a journalist was no difference than
the goal of being a banker ora lawyer. Like there were jobs and

(48:29):
you would get one if you workhard. And now it's more like saying
I want to be a Broadway performer, Like you can still do it,
and it's still worth going for becauseit's the best freaking job I know of
and it's awesome times a thousand,but it's really extremely hard. But and
this is the big BUYO. Ifyou want to be great at it and
you want to last, and youwant to really produce stuff that matters and

(48:50):
you want to make an actual impact, you have to be a professional and
you have to really report, andyou have to dig. And if your
impulse is too for photos with everyoneyou're writing about, you're not meant for
this, Like you're just not thatand you're the stuff you produce like that
woman in Colorado, Like that's fleetingas can be, and that photo that

(49:12):
she's going to post on her Instagramfeed and show all her friends. I
mean that stuff all fades away,but making a real impact the right Thompson's,
the steth Wickersham's, the Jammel Hills, the Grant Walls, the John
Wortheim's, on and on and onthose people like they have real impacts on
society and real impacts on sports andculture. And it's hard, and it's
a pain in the ass and allthe tides against us, but it's still

(49:35):
worth pursuing. Yeah, I agree, it is. I think that's and
again I don't want to sound fatalistic, it's just so many of the complaints
that I see out there seem toignore the role of finances in this.
I mean, this industry is nodifferent than most everything that you get what
you pay for, and unfortunately Jewsare paying enough, and the people at
the top of the food chain interms of media owners, they're not investing

(49:59):
enough, and so this is sortof a consequence of that. And so
I guess the way I would sumit up is that fanboy media is a
symptom rather than the cause. Thecause. It's a lack of an investment,
And I don't know how things improveother than trying to make people aware
of it. And hopefully it's morepeople are aware. I guess the hope
is it over time, progressively there'snew revenue streams brought in to sort of

(50:21):
give the incentives back. Yeah.And also, it's not like there isn't
a place for fanboy media, likeI have no problem with fan blogs,
fan site, uh say on Twitterlike zeros, I don't have a problem
with that. I think that stuffis cool. I don't have a problem
with MLB dot com writers and columnistshaving that slant of them, you know,
working for MLB. I honestly don't. I just think like you still
need legit reporting to balance it outindependently. Yeah, yeah, you just

(50:45):
do so I don't. I'm not. I'm not. I would even be
asked by the woman in Colorado puttingthat stuff out if you're working for like
gobus dot com, like, dothat to your heart's content. But the
fact that you work for the CBSaffiliate a news anchor's absolutely insane. And
that's where we're seeing these parts.Yeah, it's the lack of balance.

(51:06):
Yep, correct, Okay, gotyou, Jeff, Thanks so much for
the time. I think this wasgreat insight for anyone who wants to watch
the finale of Winning Time that willbe it's released this coming Sunday, right
yep. And then a streams NonStop. Yeah. Absolutely, and if you
have to start again go to Maxyep. Thanks for doing the chef all
right for good see all right nowto do it for this episode of the

(51:28):
Logger Line. If you want tofollow Jeff on Twitter, you can do
so at Jeff Perlman his name knowsfaces nothing else. For me, you
can follow me at Ben Dubos samejust my name, and you can also
follow the show the logger Line onTwitter at the logger Line, where if
you go to the bio you canhit up the link tree, and through
the link tree you can find linksto all of our friends, partners and
sponsors, car By Brewing, SportsTalk seven ninety USA, Today's Rocket Squire,

(51:52):
and of course Apple, Google,Spotify. You can find out where
to listen and hopefully subscribe to thispodcast, sleeve, positive reviews, anything
you need you can find at thelogger Line on Twitter, through link tree
or x I suppose we've gotten that. I don't think I'm ever going to
get used to saying X. Anyway. With that, I'll bring this to
a close again, Paulo, We'llbe back next week. We'll be talking

(52:15):
a lot more micro be it aKevin Porter Junior transaction. Is he actually
traded? Is he waved? Orthe potential of one. We've heard the
rumors. I talked about that earlier. Whatever the case, We'll be back
with more of a usual show nextweek. This was something a bit different
because I think Jeff has done incrediblework with Showtime and now Winning Time,
the television show. It's done agreat job during this offseason of driving NBA

(52:37):
discourse and underscoring some of the themesthat are prominent in the NBA today.
If you watch the show, you'llget a good understanding, even if it's
before your time, of where alot of this stuff started. And ultimately,
if you understand where we came from, it may also give you an
understanding of where things go in thefuture in the coming decades of NBA basketball.
Anyway, I'll wrap things for todayagain for Jeff Perlman, I'm ben

(52:59):
to bow. Thanks so much forlistening. And please come back soon for
another new episode of the Loggerline.