In this episode, Rob and I talk to Jake Herway to discuss what leadership is, and how to have a fulfilling career.
Join us as we explore the essential qualities of effective leadership, including communication, decision-making, and adaptability. We'll discuss strategies for building strong teams, fostering a positive work culture, and achieving a healthy work-life balance.
Tune in for engaging conversations, actionable advice, and real-world anecdotes on how to overcome career challenges, embrace opportunities, and foster personal and professional growth. By integrating the wisdom of experienced leaders into your own journey, you can cultivate a fulfilling career that aligns with your values and inspires those around you to reach new heights.
www.mentalwealthpod.com
www.pedalmyway.com
DISCLAIMER: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker’s own and do not constitute legal, medical, or other forms of professional advice. The material and information presented here is for general information and entertainment purposes only. The "Mental Wealth Podcast" and "Pedal My Way" names and all forms and abbreviations are the property of its owner and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service.
Join us as we explore the essential qualities of effective leadership, including communication, decision-making, and adaptability. We'll discuss strategies for building strong teams, fostering a positive work culture, and achieving a healthy work-life balance.
Tune in for engaging conversations, actionable advice, and real-world anecdotes on how to overcome career challenges, embrace opportunities, and foster personal and professional growth. By integrating the wisdom of experienced leaders into your own journey, you can cultivate a fulfilling career that aligns with your values and inspires those around you to reach new heights.
www.mentalwealthpod.com
www.pedalmyway.com
DISCLAIMER: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker’s own and do not constitute legal, medical, or other forms of professional advice. The material and information presented here is for general information and entertainment purposes only. The "Mental Wealth Podcast" and "Pedal My Way" names and all forms and abbreviations are the property of its owner and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Pedal My Way. We have a
special guest today mccand and I, and I'm going to
do a little bit of introduction here. This is Jake Krway.
He is an explorer and a guide on a bike
in his church, in his family. In business, he explores culture, leadership, ideas, disciplines, science,
(00:28):
and guides people away from the dead ends to what
really works. He makes his living now as an executive
team coach, working with leaders who find themselves under pressure
to deliver results quickly. And this is a topic that
mccund and I have spoken about before in terms of
motivation and leadership. We talked a little bit about that
on an individual basis. Obviously we don't have experts on
(00:49):
that far from it, so we thought we'd have someone
on who knew what they were talking about for a change.
So I think the most important or at least one
of the most important topics right now is for people individually,
what is rewarding work? How would you define rewarding work
as a as a leader or even an individual who
is just starting out that career.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Rewarding work is what I'm after, Rob, So I'm glad
you phrased it that way. For me, rewarding work is
work that is fulfilling emotionally and financially. It's not rewarding
unless I'm winning, and those two need to go together.
There's a camp in my world in employee engagement sometimes
(01:32):
that stick to happiness, and there's another camp that stick
to the business outcomes. For me, it's not an either or,
it's both. I learned that early on in my banking career.
I started in investment banking. Within four months I knew
that I was in the wrong place. I was leaving
(01:55):
so much what I thought was talent. Maybe that's a
bit satistical, but I felt like I could contribute a
lot more to the bank than the spreadsheets I was running.
And yet when I offered it, I was shut down,
and not just discouraged. Shut down. Don't go there. That's
not your job, that's not your role. We don't want it.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Did you have a couple of examples, Jake, Like, what
what do you approach to bankuet?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, well there was, for example, there was a platform,
so I was I was on the origination side and
we had risk managers on the other side, and obviously
we you do this and it's a healthy conflict in
a bank, and the equivalent exists in every organization of
quality assurance for example, and marketing in any kind of
(02:45):
product business. And we had a shared platform and my
manager was upset that we weren't using it. And I
suggested that perhaps it wasn't a matter of stick and
telling use to use it, but perhaps there was a
reason why we weren't using it. Perhaps there was a
(03:06):
pull that wasn't there that we could create. And I
had a few suggestions, and he just looked at me
as like, you're wasting your time. You got a whole
night's worth of spreadsheets, balance sheets to merge together. Don't
talk to me about this is someone else's job. Wow,
this whole platform thing got shut down. There was a
(03:27):
time when I brought strengths Finder. It's an assessment I
happened to come across while I was in banking, and
I did it, and I brought my strengths results to
my manager and said, you know, perhaps if I take
this online course and that online course based on my strengths,
maybe I can help you in your origination strategy. So
(03:49):
at the time, of course, as an analyst, I was
fulfilling the requests of the MDS, I thought I and
I offered an asked if I could be a part
of the strategic effort. And again I was way above
my pay grade, not supposed to be there, and got
shut down and put back into the corner. And eventually
(04:12):
it took four years, but I committed the rest of
my life to making sure that people don't experience what
I experienced, where I just made a lot of money,
but instead could be fulfilled and to be financially successful
as well.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
What would you say to somebody who's in that position
right now, who's got a boss that's not listening to them,
who's not engaging in ideas, who's just telling them what
to do, and you condescending or however you want to
phrase that, What would you say to someone in that
position right now?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, I mean most of them. Most you got to
get out. I mean people are afraid of it. They're
scared of something, and people don't change. One of the
things that I've learned over my years of human behavior
and culture changeleadership development is people don't leap frog into
(05:04):
different people all of a sudden. There's nothing you can
say for sure, There's nothing you can tell somebody that's
going to change. Maybe there's something you can show them
that they can experience that might change a belief for
two beliefs, and they could be important ones, but your
ability to change. Look, all of anyone who's been married
(05:27):
knows this. And I don't know why we fight it
in the workplace or with others. It's like they're not
going to change you. Either you accept it, you fight it,
or you run from it. And if you're not happy there,
don't accept it and fighting it's a losing battle to
negative ROI. So that's my advice. It might sound, you know,
(05:51):
like brash and like I don't know the details. I
guarantee someone tots say this might be like, but you
don't understand my situation. Get out it out. There is
so much more to the world than that relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
At least they should come up with a plan to
start getting out as soon as possible.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, exactly. You want to do it responsibly. You don't
necessarily show up, you know, the next day and just quit. Yeah,
it's happened. I don't have that kind of courage. I didn't,
so I didn't do that. It took me four years.
I made a bit of a plan I knew enough,
I had an idea. That's how I met mccund at
(06:29):
Duke where we went to business school. I was in
the midst of a career switch. I didn't know exactly
what I wanted, but I at least had a quality
MBA as part of that path to help gleet frog
me into something respectable.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean you had a plan there,
you had a foundation there anyway, and so you knew
the direction you wanted to go in at least.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, exactly right, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So there was arning work, something about the idea of
rewarding work and fulfillment. Do you think that's something that
people individually are missing right now? And then as an individual,
if you're feeling fulfilled at work, you're not generally going
to be happy. Is that something that you would think
that leaders can contribute to. Can they create fulfilling work
(07:15):
for their employees or does that have to come from
the individual themselves.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Don't let me forget that question, because I want to
lead up to it, and sometimes in my lead up
I may forget. So remind me the fulfilling work. First
of all, work in my experience was so influential on
my overall well being. It took me by surprise when
I first got into the workplace just how much my
(07:42):
career well being influenced everything, sleep, diet, physical exercise, my
relationship with my wife, eventually my relationship with my kids.
Everything was being affected by how I spent that eight
to twelve or fourteen hours depending on the day, which
now makes perfect sense just mathematically. It's the total amount
(08:04):
of time of this influence in my life. It's the
greatest percentage. Of course, is going to have a greater
percentage influence on my overall well being. So that's why
I started to take work well being very serious and
why I committed myself to rewarding work. What I'm actually
committing myself to is rewarding living. When I'm solving for
the work, I'm solving for the living now fulfillment. I
(08:28):
define fulfillment as being able to get in work terms,
get paid, to do what you do best, to make
a difference in what you care about most. And again
this comes from my personal journey and coaching leaders and
students over the last almost decade and a half two decades.
(08:48):
The ability to do what you do best. There's a
lot there, but the most important thing to recognize is
you don't compare yourself to others. You're comparing yourself to you.
Of all the things I do, what do I do best?
Forget about whether someone else can hit the home run?
You might be the best at batting, even if you're
(09:12):
not getting it over the fence. Like everyone it doesn't
matter what everyone else is doing? What do you do best?
Right to make a difference. Making a difference is honestly
as much about character as it is about competence. But
those are the two things, character and competence. And character
can compensate for lack of competence for a while, but
(09:33):
lack of competence can never or competence can never compensate
for lack of character. Character is the most important thing.
What I mean by character, I think is obvious to
most people. But integrity, honesty, hard work, being dependable.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
That I defy who you are? Right?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
The character, yeah, defines who you are, which is another
important piece. So we have career well being influencing life
in a in a disproportionate way, but it makes sense
because it's proportions the amount of time you spend at work.
You then have a definition of fulfilling work. Doing it
(10:10):
you do best, make a difference what you care about most,
What you care about most is intentional. There's a natural
distribution in care. On one end of care is passion.
I think it's four and a half percent right on
one end, and the other four and a half percent
is just don't care about anything. Right in the middle
is the rest of us. The sixty six percent, the
rest of us just we care about something. But again,
(10:34):
of all the things you care about, forget what other
people care about, and forget about whether you're to that
passion state or not. You might be, but odds are
you not other things that do matter to you? What
do you care about most? Start making a difference in
that based on what's unique to you. Fulfilling work. So
(10:54):
that's a journey I take people on, and a journey
I've been on it, and we all will continue to
be on those of us who desire to have rewarding work.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
That's a good point. Actually, it's a continual process, right.
It's not just like you found this great role and
every day is going to be perfect from this day forward.
It's like you've got to continue that. How how do
people stay motivated towards that. Is there a toolkit that
they can use? Is there something that you Is it
just I'm doing the right role. So I'm going to
stay involved and engage in that process.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I guess when you, I guess being intentional about it
each day. I mean I've written it down even at times,
and put it as a calendar tickler to pop up
at eight am when I sit down at my computer
to ask the question, am I finding meaning and what
(11:45):
I'm doing? Am I making a difference in what I'm doing?
Am I using my God given talents to write that
difference is something that's meaningful to me? The other So
I don't I don't really have a good answer on
like how to keep that going other than to remember
(12:06):
that that's why we're here in the first place. And
anything less than fulfilling than fulfillment and rewarding work is
less than a fulfilled and rewarding life.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Right. It's to you said, stay intentional and stay focused
on what you're actually enjoying and you actually benefit from,
right and to remember those things right now?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
The question I didn't answer is the leader's role versus
the individual's role?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yes, all right?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
If there was one thing I could do if I
could get a billboard and tell the whole world or
megaphone and tell the whole world one thing. It's that
definition of fulfillment and that it's on you. I wish
I could tell the world. I'm convinced that. Look Gallup,
where I came from, I was a partner there leading
their culture transformation portfolio. We measure and you may have
(13:01):
seen the news. It's the lowest ever. You know, it
hovers around thirty percent of people who really enjoy their work.
The other seventy are indifferent or hated. And that don't
hasn't changed.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I showed up a Gallop twelve years ago, thirteen years ago,
wanting to change that number, and it didn't change.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Is it at Gallup or you were saying across the
most of the workplaces.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Oh, that's that's the average across the US. Globally, it's
even worse. It's it's more like half that fifteen percent
well enjoy their work. In the US, it's thirty percent
highly are engaged at work. And so I showed up
at Gallop thinking, okay, we're measuring it, We're going to
(13:43):
change it. Do we blame Gallop for the failure. I
know people who do. Hey, you guys, measure it? What
are you doing about it? Do we blame all the consultants,
all the leadership development? Do we blame all the billions
of dollars that have put into learning and leadership? I
just think it's evidence that it's not the system's fault,
the leader's fault. It's we show what is work for you.
(14:09):
That's the fundamental lie that we tell ourselves what is work?
Most of us show up to make money, just like
I did with investment banking. That's why I showed up,
and that was the mistake. We need to show up
for rewarding work, to make money and be it's not
(14:31):
and be fulfilled you're not fulfilled, and tell you are
making money and winning. So product fulfillment is the winning.
It's doing both and knowing you're doing both. So I'm
not going to take a job unless I know it
gives me the opportunity to do what I do best,
to make a difference in what I care about most.
(14:52):
If that was why I worked, If that is why
I chose a job, to do what I do best,
make a difference what I care about, it would change
everything I'm convinced it would change everything. You would get
leaders that are in the role because they're doing what
they do best, make a difference what they care about most.
You'd get managers with kids coming to them saying, Hey,
(15:13):
this and this about the platform, that and that about
our origination strategy, And it would be a completely different conversation,
not because of how I trained them, not because even
of why I promoted them, not why I hired them,
why they took the job in the first place, because
it was a chance to do what they do best,
make a difference to what they care about most. If
(15:34):
I could just stamp that on every kid that comes
into this world and convince them to not take a
job unless it answers that mandate, I think you'd have
better rewarding work and more higher engagement scores, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Absolutely, it's really about making sure that those opportunities are
available to people at some point too, right, and not
just people knowing that there is other opportunities there, but
also saying, hey, this is accessible to you, if you
want this job, this is what you can do. Because
I think, like you said before, fear drives a lot
of our decision making. People are afraid if they don't
(16:13):
have a job, I can't pay my bills. So they're
not going to go for that job that they want
because they're afraid they're going to lose their house, their car,
whatever it is. So, is there something that when you're
speaking to people, and you're speaking to somebody who's thinking
about making a career change, is there something you can
say to them where it's driving them away from fear
and towards what that potential is, what that other side
(16:37):
looks like.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Let me respond to your first part, which is to say,
leaders that that want to create engaging workplaces. You said
that create the opportunities hire people that are that can
answer yes to this job, can create an opportunity for
me to do what I do best, to make a
difference to what I care about most. If you start
(16:59):
high sharing people and promoting people based on that criteria
that this job will be fulfilling to them, rewarding to them.
That is what leaders can do. And so there is
an opportunity for leaders to help. But I do think
that the responsibilities on each of us. We can't rely
(17:20):
on someone else. And so when we talk about now
transitioning to that fear why I don't make the decision. Well,
some days I'm much more patient than others. But in
my more patient response to how do you get through fear,
it's I try and take people through a decision and
(17:45):
have them really feel the fear, really experience it, really
in their heart, feel that the worst case scenario happened, right,
I lost my house, I couldn't pay the electricity, whatever
and whatever, and then make a decision based on on that,
and then I what I call follow the domino. Follow
the domino. Okay, you just made whatever decision you made
(18:05):
out of fear. What happens next, what happens next, What
happens next, what happens next, what happens next? And ultimately
you're on your deathbed with regrets, you know, with with
life on lived. Right, you follow the domino with that,
and you get to that point and somewhere along the
(18:25):
line there's probably a midlife crisis where you've you've left
your wife and bon a Corvette and just made stupid decisions. Whereas, okay,
now let's change that emotion. Let's bring in an emotion
of gratitude, of abundance, a possibility of faith and belief
in yourself and in your future, what decision do you
(18:48):
do you take follow the domino. And that's my effort
again to show instead of tell. Again, people don't change
when you tell them something. If you can show them,
have them experience it, that would be my advice. Maybe
do that on your own. I think through a decision,
a major life decision, and go through, go through the
two different dominos domino effects, and see which one you prefer.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, it's something for As you said, it's not just
leaders that need that advice and bringing people together, it's
the individual themselves is looking for something else. In fact,
it's probably people that are working as an employee right
now in part of a team, rather than leaders themselves.
They actually need that. What am I going to do
for the next thing? What do I want to do?
(19:34):
How can I be more purpose driven in what I'm doing?
I was thinking in terms of leadership, asking how do
you communicate now most effectively with people that are we
have disparate teams all over the world. You've got teams
in different countries. How do you communicate online via email
(19:54):
and bring that message to message of your brand and
together that unified vision for a company if you have it?
How do you communicate that to a wide group of
people when we're all sort of you know, we're all
you and I and wakanda, you know, talking from different
parts of the parts of the world, you guys in
(20:15):
the US, ME and Canada. How do you get the
right message across as a leader and speak to people
that are perhaps separated by Latin maybe not language barriers,
but certainly cultural barriers. And these kinds of things that
we have to think about now in today's world, when
we are now working in different parts of the country
(20:35):
and sort of on different projects. What is the communication
tools that you would recommend to leaders?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
So the problem you're trying to solve in that question
is how do you get the hearts of people and
how do you get them committed to what they're being
paid to do? And it's not often communication problem is
(21:07):
actually a credibility problem. The leadership itself is not walking
whatever talking they're doing. So the first step to earning
the hearts of people, no matter where they are physically
or not if they're working virtually, is to make sure
as a leadership team, you're walking your top right. And
(21:30):
there's a self awareness that comes with that, and people
often miss two important parts of self awareness that usually
just think about how do I tend to act and
how does that affect others. That's one aspect of self awareness.
The second aspect of self awareness is where do I
come from? What do I stand for? What's important to me?
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Why am I here?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Basically who am I? At my core identity? So there's
an identity self awareness to miss. And then there's a
human self awareness that we overlook very often as leaders
because we think we're superhuman. But the cognitive biases, the limitations,
are finite abilities, and just the fact that we all
need grace and we all need forgiveness, and we all
(22:16):
mess up that human self awareness. When you add those
three up, you get a leader who walks their talk.
And that takes work. That takes coaching to get self
awareness on all three of those important Most coaches even
miss the all three of those parts of self awareness
that are important. Once you get that in place and
(22:37):
leaders are walking to talk, now how do you win
the hearts? I look at countries and how they do it.
They have a flag, they have an anthem, they have
a common language, they have rituals, they have holidays, celebrations, heroes, stories,
you look at what brings a country together, it's the
same thing that brings any group together. It's the same
(22:59):
art of facts, rituals, and traditions, and those are the
kind of things that you you establish in your organization.
And then you can live in Toronto, you know, in
Toronto or Vancouver and still be a Canadian. And it's
because of those common, common and consistently common aspects of
(23:20):
the culture that bring you together. And that's that's a
whole other conversation about culture.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
So in the analogy of the organization being like a
mini country, right, the key difference is organization is kind
of actual employment. Either they can lead, they can fire you,
or you can leave. It's much harder to do in
a country. What I'm trying to say is the power
(23:49):
is not with you in an organization, right, for various reasons.
So in in such a scenario, the question that Rob
was asking in terms of, you know, how can you
not force how can you cultivate this oneness that you know,
be a one like a single messaging? Has it been
(24:10):
an effective kind of a strategy? You think, just because
the balance of power is not with you in an organization,
but in a country, you are one in millions of people. Right,
nobody's going to throw you out of a country in
a normal day, but everybody gets fired from the jobs, right.
I'm just I'm just curious, you know, because it's I know,
the analgy you're trying to make, but just kind of
(24:30):
a curveball time in terms of a situation.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, you know, sometimes when people throw curveballs, you choose
not to swing, right, that'd be one option, but I'll
swing at this curveball. There is a difference, you mccooned.
I know you well enough to know that you have
a heritage of people who have left their country. So
(24:55):
there is power in the employee too, And as we
talked about before in your question, there is more power
than we realize if we can get through to the
other side of fear. But at the same time, it
is at will. They can fire us anytime. So can
you really create oness. You know, there's a whole concept
(25:15):
of we're not a family, we're a team. Don't call
us a family because you're not stuck with us. We
can part way as anytime, but we're a team here
to perform, and we're going to perform while we're all together.
As best as we can, and if we to make
personnel changes, we will, And I get it, you know.
Let me take an even bigger picture, and that is
(25:36):
that we all die, so eventually we all leave this earth.
And this is all temporary anyway. So whether it's an
hour we have together or a lifetime we have together,
it's still temporary. So from my perspective, I say, if
I'm going to interact with somebody, I'm going to treat
it and give it everything I have and be in
(25:58):
as best as I know how to be in, make
the best at that moment, that temporary moment, and it
could be seven minutes, it could be seventy years, you
know whatever. Like why would I hold back? Because I'm
afraid of what Rejection happens all the time, afraid of
losing happens all the time, afraid of it ending. Everything ends.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
So sustain the moment and enjoy the current situation as.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
You give it everything, give it everything while you're there,
and who cares if they fire you the next day?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Whatever?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
You were gonna die anyway, so it's going to finish,
you know, Like I don't know. That's my that's my perspective.
I think it's healthy sometimes just to remember that everything
is temporary in life, and so what are you gonna do?
Not give everything just because it's not gonna.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Last that yeah, yeah, it makes sense sense.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
That's a good point. It's it's it's something that people
also afraid to think about. Obviously, is death that temporary
part of it. But when you think about it, and
not to really the losing your job, not having the
right job, it's really it's an immaterial at that point,
all of it is immaterial. It's going for what you
(27:17):
want will help you now, and this is all we have.
We only have now. We don't know what happens in
the future. You absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
You only got one life to spend, you know. And
and what people hear sometimes is irresponsibility in this And
what happens when we follow our head and try and
be you know, completely responsible and stifle the heart. Is
that midlife crisis that I talked about. That's that's just
(27:48):
what happens inevitably if you if you hold out through
the mid life crisis and continue the same way to
just live with your head, you're gonna and you're just
gonna die with regret. It's just what happens. What we're
talking about is not ignoring one or the other, but
doing both, but leading with your heart and using your
head to get your heart where it wants to go,
(28:10):
because your heart is the least likely to change. Your
heart comes from how you were raised, your experiences with
your parents and your siblings and your community when you
were young, and as you developed and have these material experiences,
that's what your heart longs for. That's what your heart
wants again. And so when we get into our adult life,
(28:30):
as we're try and stifle that heart like it just
gets the point where it's going to explode. It's just
gonna be like enough enough of this nonsense. Already, give
me what I want. So instead of getting to that
point where it explodes, what we're saying is use your head,
be smart about it, get paid to do what you
(28:54):
do best to make a difference in what you care
about most is using your head to get your heart
where it wants to go. And that's a lifelong journey
because we experiences happen, things change, we get new. You know,
someone dies of cancer, I have a child born with
some ailment, and all of a sudden, my priorities change.
What matters to me changes, and I got it. Now
(29:15):
my heart wants something different, and I need to use
my head to figure out how to get my heart
what it is.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yeah, I had to get what your heart wants. That's enough,
by word to live by, I believe.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah. Yeah, And it's it's backwards from the way most
of us do it. Especially by the time we show
up looking for a job. We think it's one or
the other, but it's both. You've got to do both.
Lead with your heart, use the head.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
That's true. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
That so, yeah, we've talked a little bit about business
and about leadership now, but I'm curious, like, what is
it you're passionate about outside of your leadership work.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
You know, not to interrupt you, but the way you
introduced me was perfect. You know. I love being a guide,
and I'm a guide at work. I take every chance
to be a guide. I coach my kids soccer teams
to guide them. I guide. I'm a youth minister. I
guide those kids as best as I can. At home
(30:17):
with my wife, and sometimes, like I said, being a
guide means you got to explore and you mentioned the
dead ends. It's so true. Sometimes I hit dead ends,
and like I did with banking, and when a guide
people around that mind around that dead end. I so
I love to be a guide. And I grew up
(30:40):
in Belgium. My father worked for NATO, and so as
a self identified Belgi. Although my passport is US, I ride,
I bike, I cycle Eddie Murk. I grew up in
the town where Eddie Murk's grew up, just there near
tear Beard and Belgium, and so I ride. And I
(31:02):
do have a bike tour company that I spend a
lot of time on the weekends. So you say outside
of work, I have a bike tour company that I
run called me Jersey Bike Tours. And there's a lot
I could say about it, but that's how I spend
a lot of my weekends, a lot of my Saturdays
and then Sunday, Like I said, I'm at church with
(31:22):
my family guiding there.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
When you're on the bike, do you do you use
that to get away from the business side of things
or are you still focused on what goes on on
a day to day basis When you're on the bike.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
You know business, No, I let that go for sure,
But everything I do is so human. I'm still just
zeroed in on the human you know, dynamic, and I
tell everyone my guide with why do I love cycling
Because it's a full sensory experience. I go through this tour,
this experience full sensory and so it is a bit
(31:58):
of if you would, you could call it an escape,
but there's nothing I'm escaping from. For me, it's more
I'm going deeper into what it is that I love
about my about being human, deeper into the five senses.
And then the sixth sense for me is movement. So
you've got you know, seeing, hearing, smelling, touching, tasting, that's
(32:21):
all happening on the bike, and you've got movement, which
is for me a sixth sense more like the heart,
you know, going and it's a full it's a full
it's a way to experience life more fully.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, it's almost like you were talking about it before.
It's it's the complete idea of being in the moment.
It's it's all the senses at once. It's sort of
being moving forward as a group when you're on a
tour and being part of something bigger than yourself.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Right, that's right. Yeah, And all the analogies with cycling
and leadership and leadership teams are all very relevant that
I use often even on my tours. If I get
people that I know are in leadership positions outside of
the tour, you know, I'd give them if you would,
a little free consulting through the tour. But look, I
(33:11):
mean relationships are number one, and I'm meeting new people
on these tours, like relationships are where joy happens. And yes,
there are more important relationships than others. But I don't know.
I like people, so we hang out. We're eating a
big part of my tours are farm table tours or
(33:31):
vineyard tours. Either way, it's going to be food, and
food is something we all have in common. Food nice people, Yeah, food,
nice people. And then I throw in a little bit
of like I said, full sensory experience movement and just
like using the heart and using the body, and so
I just feel like, what a wonderful way to spend time.
(33:54):
And it's so simple, that's all we're doing, and people
will for it. I pay for it. I do bike
tours when I go out and travel too, because because
it's so human.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Something about being out there in nature with the blood flowing.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. You know, there's that freedom, accomplishment,
triumph that comes with it when you're when when you
get a nice especially with your road road bike, and
you get a nice smooth road and you're just it's
just like you're floating and just you know, cranking it out. Yeah,
(34:34):
it's it's rewarding. And you know what, I do a
lot of things, but what happens, but I choose very
intentionally things that help me do what I that allow
me to do what I do best, make a difference
and the things I care about most right and I
come to each new part of my life with more energy.
(34:57):
That's the goal. If if a bike tour bank touring,
and it happens starts to take my energy, I have
a handful of contractors that I call to help me
run the tours for me, I gotta take a break.
If the church ministering is starting to take my energy,
it's volunteer, it's time out. It's like we're taking a
(35:18):
couple of weeks off. It's not working. You asked earlier,
how do I keep focus on staying fulfilled and saying yeah, yeah,
And I think being honest with and prioritizing growing your
energy through your activities instead of doing activities that take
(35:38):
energy and recognizing that the same activity under different circumstances
can be one or the other.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, I was gonna ask you, actually, how do you
recognize when something is taking your energy? Do you just
get that that day? You don't feel it? Like? What
is that experience?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah? I do. I reflect a lot. So part of
my daily practice is a daily reflection, and I'm paying
attention to my emotions very very intentionally. Am I positive
or negative in these emotions? And where is it coming from?
(36:13):
And it's not a lot of times. Sometimes it's as
much as a handful of minutes. Other times I'll spend
half hour hour to it. I schedule it on my calendar.
It's scheduled. And the one thing I found through my
whole life, one reason why I'm a guide is because
when I was younger in the NATO State Department community,
(36:34):
there was such diversity in that community. And obviously I
love it because that's what I grew up with, right,
but such diversity, and for whatever reason, I was there
from first to twelfth grade. Everyone else is moving every
two three, five years, and so the new kid would
come in, they say, go talk to Jake, look at
(36:54):
you situated. And so I was the guide for all
these kids that would come in. And I realized that
when I was at Duke mkuland I remember being in
one of our immersion events late at night, you know,
after a project, just thinking is it that I care about?
What is it that would get me going? And I
went back to my youth and I realized as a kid,
(37:16):
I kept being put in that position to be a guide.
And so there's something about guiding. And ultimately I ended
up in consulting. It took me a little while, but ultimately,
and and and so that that has always been I've
seen that in my childhood. And I said, what made
me a good guy? Why did people come listen to me?
(37:38):
Sure I had the experience, Sure I was I thought,
you know, a decent listener. I cared about people. I
wanted the best, you know, and I believed in humanity. Yeah,
and so I believed the Japanese. You know, Paul, my
Japanese friend, could be friends with Erkan my Turkish friend,
(37:59):
and could be friends is with you know, Jessica from
South Africa. And I'm not even making up. Those are three,
you know, three people I hung out with and but
I realized it's because I took time as a kid
to reflect. I'm journals because I couldn't. I couldn't figure
it out at times like how come this Turkish kid
is so frustrated right now with such and such a person.
(38:22):
And I'm you know, I'm like, we're trying to be
a football team here, American football. And I get it
that they don't know how to play, but still we
can we can play. We can play nice. Yeah, we
don't need to argue with each other. So where's that?
And I and I felt that responsibility as a kid,
and as a kid, my solution was to work it
(38:45):
out in writing what's going on to the point where
I could go back to my Turkish kid and go
back to this other kid and be like, look, guys,
I think this is what's going on, and I think
this is how we can get through it. You're with me,
And so I kept I have kept intentionally that practice
(39:05):
because I believe it's what made me useful as a
guide in my early years and I think it continues
to serve me well now as a guide in any setting.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah, McConn and I actually spoke about that in the
last podcast, we talked about inspiration a lot bit what
inspired us to get into our careers. And that's a
great point you made about seeing what impact you could
have on even children. As a child, you knew I
could have this impact on other children bringing them together.
You knew what they needed before they needed it themselves.
(39:39):
And that's something that McConn talks about being an engineer
and figuring things out, and that's what he loved doing.
I talked about my career as a writer and being
a communicator, and that's what I enjoyed doing. But we
both figured it out from a young age. We were
lucky we figured it out as kids to be able
to go this is both what we're good at and
what we enjoy doing. And oftentimes I think people either
(40:02):
they don't figure it out or that they don't look.
They don't look around, and they don't like as you
were talking about, reflect they don't reflect on the positive experiences, right.
They don't see what that experience was and they don't
know how they benefited from it. Is there something about
the idea of writing down that experience that you think, like,
(40:22):
whether it's in business or personally, writing something down that
helps you ingrain that into your mind and sort of
like allows you to sort of reflect more effectively.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
I haven't found another way, you know, I've tried to
do the electronic given you know, I do notes. I
take notes that I that are easily searchable, so I
can go back and take them so when I write
something down if there's a key message that I want
to get and you know, I have yet to use
those notepads these days where you can write, because I
(40:57):
also I also find it valuable to be able to
just flip back, just flip back and read, not looking
for anything. That's the difference. I'm not looking for anything.
I'm just flipping back three four months and reading whatever
wrote oh oh oh, and then you know, and then
moving on. I don't do that. If it's electronic. I
(41:18):
have to know what I'm looking for, search for it,
get it.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
You need something tangible, right, like the pages physically right.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah, you're not going to head control left and try
to find something.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
So it's opportunistic if you would. And what I'm reminded
of just by flipping through the pages of written test.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
It's almost like our brains need that. Our brains need that.
Pats and recognition to figure it, figure everything out. It's interesting. Yeah, yeah,
I don't have any any good questions to continue anymore
because do you have anything to add.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
I just wanted to ask Jake raight. So, in terms
of leadership and terms of value that some that somebody
brings or tries to understand how to contribute to a
T team, has there been a disconnect in the expectation
and what they can bring to the team. Does it
question make sense in terms of say, for example, there's
(42:12):
an expectation of you as my as my manager from me,
but that's not what I bring to the team, right,
How was it that you as my manager identifies that
or fails to identify that? And you know what, I know,
the repercussions are pretty bad. But what would have you
Do you have an example of such a situation.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah, well, I'm just thinking of another example, Like when
I brought my Strengths Finder to my manager, she told me,
I want you running the analytics. You're my best person
with numbers, and I was like, I'll do it, but
(42:53):
it's not really what gets me excited. Like I'll put
very little extra time to that assignment, but I'll put
a lot of discretionary time into this origination strategy because
that gets me interested. You know, she shut it down,
and I think, I honestly, I think it was my
(43:13):
fault from the beginning because I took the job for
the wrong reason. It was my fault. I had to
own it. Well, I didn't have to. If I chose
to own it, I got to be where I am today.
If I decided I was a victim, I would still
be there, miserable and like I said, divorce and driving
a Corvette or whatever. Right, it was my choice. It
(43:34):
wasn't her fault that the expectations were different. There was
a very clear need that was defined, and I had
failed to really understand what fulfilled me. And so I
took the job for the wrong reasons. And so I
just think it's your life iteration, if you would that.
(43:58):
I learned from that experience. So then I iterated and
tried to find something that fit better and fit better
and fit better.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
That yeah, that makes sense. So instead of you going in,
But I think there's a disconnect in your expectation off
the job rather than your managed the expectation of you, right.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah, I mean, if you can change, if you can
have a conversation and get to that point where you
rely on expectations, right. But I wouldn't expect just again, fight,
accept or run. I often say, if the acronym is far,
you know you can.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
If you choose to.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Accept, you'll go far together. If you choose to fight,
you'll go far apart. And if you choose to run, well,
you know that's I don't have a line for that one.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
It's like it's like the fight, flight or freeze response
right when you are in a situation.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
It's just another way rephrase the same idea, and I
just think it's such a waste of time to spend.
You can try once, maybe twice. Like I said, try
not to tell show show them a product I should
have if I were to do that over again and
really want to do it right, I would I probably
(45:20):
should have said, hey, let me just show you what
I can do from an origination strategy instead of telling
her that I wanted to do it, show it, and
then if that still didn't change things, Just don't waste
your time. People don't change, organizations don't change very much.
(45:42):
And unless it's a relationship that you need or are
committed to already for a longer term. Then you got
to face those fears.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
You have follow the dominoes and you decide how you
want your That's such a good point about taking ownership
of your own situation. You decide what happens next. I
think a lot of people are sort of stuck in
this idea of my boss decides my future, whatever it is.
I'm afraid of this my you know, if it's a
(46:13):
relationship thing, my wife will go friend. It's like, you
can decide, you can decide what happens next. You just
have to take ownership of your situation. That's a great point.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Yeah, and so I talk about this often. You have
influence in life. I can try and influence these people.
I think Mukunda at a certain point, your question is
one about influence, influence, expectations. But there's only one thing
you control in this world. There's only one thing you control.
(46:43):
That's you. That's it. You're not going to be able
to control anything else, not your kids, not even your income,
not your career. We are under the illusion of control
of all these things, but we don't control anything except ourselves.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
So so do it.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Control you don't let anybody else do it. You're the
only one that controls you and you are the only
thing that you control.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
I think that's kind of a catch all, right, Jake,
you know, as a not a parting thought, but kind
of a catch all. What do you to say it
is in terms of I know there's a big topic, right,
so so we can't really go into the nitty gritty
of it, but I think we gave a very good
exposure or rather your experience in leadership in terms of
(47:33):
your value, what you bring to the table, expectations. I
think we govern touch base on a lot of different
aspects of who you are, right and what you want
to get out of life. Right, As a kind of
a wrap wrap it up kind of a thing, what
would you say is kind of a catch all all this?
Speaker 2 (47:51):
I agree with mccoon. I think that does it. I
think that control is a good is a good place
to finish because everything starts there. That's where you start
to address the fear. That's where you start to make
choices that are aligned more to what your heart wants
unless your head and Rob. I appreciate you and mccoon
(48:12):
guiding this conversation the good questions you asked. I hope
that it's abuse if not to anyone else, at least
to the three of us, to live more fulfilled and
more rewarding lives and.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
What have you said, Rob, Actually it did hit a
lot of my own thinking as well, and I think
Rob as well because Rob and I talk almost every day,
so it's kind of you are on the same page
in terms of wavelength, in terms of what expectations are.
It has a very interesting conditions.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Excellent. Well, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Yeah, thanks, Jake. We really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
Man.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
It's been so rewarding to hear. As I said, this
sort of like hits on some of the things we've
been talking about before, even in a few previous podcasts
that we've done, just the ideas of reflection and leadership
and engaging in your own mind what you want to do.
And I think these are such important topics to be
talking about. Even as you said, if it's just a
three of us, great, but if if anyone else can
(49:07):
benefit from it, I think.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
And I think a lot of people will definitely. Good
work you guys.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
Once again, Thank you all, Thank you, jas, thank you again,
thank you, thanks to back. Thanks
Hello, and welcome to Pedal My Way. We have a
special guest today mccand and I, and I'm going to
do a little bit of introduction here. This is Jake Krway.
He is an explorer and a guide on a bike
in his church, in his family. In business, he explores culture, leadership, ideas, disciplines, science,
(00:28):
and guides people away from the dead ends to what
really works. He makes his living now as an executive
team coach, working with leaders who find themselves under pressure
to deliver results quickly. And this is a topic that
mccund and I have spoken about before in terms of
motivation and leadership. We talked a little bit about that
on an individual basis. Obviously we don't have experts on
(00:49):
that far from it, so we thought we'd have someone
on who knew what they were talking about for a change.
So I think the most important or at least one
of the most important topics right now is for people individually,
what is rewarding work? How would you define rewarding work
as a as a leader or even an individual who
is just starting out that career.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Rewarding work is what I'm after, Rob, So I'm glad
you phrased it that way. For me, rewarding work is
work that is fulfilling emotionally and financially. It's not rewarding
unless I'm winning, and those two need to go together.
There's a camp in my world in employee engagement sometimes
(01:32):
that stick to happiness, and there's another camp that stick
to the business outcomes. For me, it's not an either or,
it's both. I learned that early on in my banking career.
I started in investment banking. Within four months I knew
that I was in the wrong place. I was leaving
(01:55):
so much what I thought was talent. Maybe that's a
bit satistical, but I felt like I could contribute a
lot more to the bank than the spreadsheets I was running.
And yet when I offered it, I was shut down,
and not just discouraged. Shut down. Don't go there. That's
not your job, that's not your role. We don't want it.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Did you have a couple of examples, Jake, Like, what
what do you approach to bankuet?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, well there was, for example, there was a platform,
so I was I was on the origination side and
we had risk managers on the other side, and obviously
we you do this and it's a healthy conflict in
a bank, and the equivalent exists in every organization of
quality assurance for example, and marketing in any kind of
(02:45):
product business. And we had a shared platform and my
manager was upset that we weren't using it. And I
suggested that perhaps it wasn't a matter of stick and
telling use to use it, but perhaps there was a
reason why we weren't using it. Perhaps there was a
(03:06):
pull that wasn't there that we could create. And I
had a few suggestions, and he just looked at me
as like, you're wasting your time. You got a whole
night's worth of spreadsheets, balance sheets to merge together. Don't
talk to me about this is someone else's job. Wow,
this whole platform thing got shut down. There was a
(03:27):
time when I brought strengths Finder. It's an assessment I
happened to come across while I was in banking, and
I did it, and I brought my strengths results to
my manager and said, you know, perhaps if I take
this online course and that online course based on my strengths,
maybe I can help you in your origination strategy. So
(03:49):
at the time, of course, as an analyst, I was
fulfilling the requests of the MDS, I thought I and
I offered an asked if I could be a part
of the strategic effort. And again I was way above
my pay grade, not supposed to be there, and got
shut down and put back into the corner. And eventually
(04:12):
it took four years, but I committed the rest of
my life to making sure that people don't experience what
I experienced, where I just made a lot of money,
but instead could be fulfilled and to be financially successful
as well.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
What would you say to somebody who's in that position
right now, who's got a boss that's not listening to them,
who's not engaging in ideas, who's just telling them what
to do, and you condescending or however you want to
phrase that, What would you say to someone in that
position right now?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, I mean most of them. Most you got to
get out. I mean people are afraid of it. They're
scared of something, and people don't change. One of the
things that I've learned over my years of human behavior
and culture changeleadership development is people don't leap frog into
(05:04):
different people all of a sudden. There's nothing you can
say for sure, There's nothing you can tell somebody that's
going to change. Maybe there's something you can show them
that they can experience that might change a belief for
two beliefs, and they could be important ones, but your
ability to change. Look, all of anyone who's been married
(05:27):
knows this. And I don't know why we fight it
in the workplace or with others. It's like they're not
going to change you. Either you accept it, you fight it,
or you run from it. And if you're not happy there,
don't accept it and fighting it's a losing battle to
negative ROI. So that's my advice. It might sound, you know,
(05:51):
like brash and like I don't know the details. I
guarantee someone tots say this might be like, but you
don't understand my situation. Get out it out. There is
so much more to the world than that relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
At least they should come up with a plan to
start getting out as soon as possible.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, exactly. You want to do it responsibly. You don't
necessarily show up, you know, the next day and just quit. Yeah,
it's happened. I don't have that kind of courage. I didn't,
so I didn't do that. It took me four years.
I made a bit of a plan I knew enough,
I had an idea. That's how I met mccund at
(06:29):
Duke where we went to business school. I was in
the midst of a career switch. I didn't know exactly
what I wanted, but I at least had a quality
MBA as part of that path to help gleet frog
me into something respectable.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean you had a plan there,
you had a foundation there anyway, and so you knew
the direction you wanted to go in at least.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, exactly right, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So there was arning work, something about the idea of
rewarding work and fulfillment. Do you think that's something that
people individually are missing right now? And then as an individual,
if you're feeling fulfilled at work, you're not generally going
to be happy. Is that something that you would think
that leaders can contribute to. Can they create fulfilling work
(07:15):
for their employees or does that have to come from
the individual themselves.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Don't let me forget that question, because I want to
lead up to it, and sometimes in my lead up
I may forget. So remind me the fulfilling work. First
of all, work in my experience was so influential on
my overall well being. It took me by surprise when
I first got into the workplace just how much my
(07:42):
career well being influenced everything, sleep, diet, physical exercise, my
relationship with my wife, eventually my relationship with my kids.
Everything was being affected by how I spent that eight
to twelve or fourteen hours depending on the day, which
now makes perfect sense just mathematically. It's the total amount
(08:04):
of time of this influence in my life. It's the
greatest percentage. Of course, is going to have a greater
percentage influence on my overall well being. So that's why
I started to take work well being very serious and
why I committed myself to rewarding work. What I'm actually
committing myself to is rewarding living. When I'm solving for
the work, I'm solving for the living now fulfillment. I
(08:28):
define fulfillment as being able to get in work terms,
get paid, to do what you do best, to make
a difference in what you care about most. And again
this comes from my personal journey and coaching leaders and
students over the last almost decade and a half two decades.
(08:48):
The ability to do what you do best. There's a
lot there, but the most important thing to recognize is
you don't compare yourself to others. You're comparing yourself to you.
Of all the things I do, what do I do best?
Forget about whether someone else can hit the home run?
You might be the best at batting, even if you're
(09:12):
not getting it over the fence. Like everyone it doesn't
matter what everyone else is doing? What do you do best?
Right to make a difference. Making a difference is honestly
as much about character as it is about competence. But
those are the two things, character and competence. And character
can compensate for lack of competence for a while, but
(09:33):
lack of competence can never or competence can never compensate
for lack of character. Character is the most important thing.
What I mean by character, I think is obvious to
most people. But integrity, honesty, hard work, being dependable.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
That I defy who you are? Right?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
The character, yeah, defines who you are, which is another
important piece. So we have career well being influencing life
in a in a disproportionate way, but it makes sense
because it's proportions the amount of time you spend at work.
You then have a definition of fulfilling work. Doing it
(10:10):
you do best, make a difference what you care about most,
What you care about most is intentional. There's a natural
distribution in care. On one end of care is passion.
I think it's four and a half percent right on
one end, and the other four and a half percent
is just don't care about anything. Right in the middle
is the rest of us. The sixty six percent, the
rest of us just we care about something. But again,
(10:34):
of all the things you care about, forget what other
people care about, and forget about whether you're to that
passion state or not. You might be, but odds are
you not other things that do matter to you? What
do you care about most? Start making a difference in
that based on what's unique to you. Fulfilling work. So
(10:54):
that's a journey I take people on, and a journey
I've been on it, and we all will continue to
be on those of us who desire to have rewarding work.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
That's a good point. Actually, it's a continual process, right.
It's not just like you found this great role and
every day is going to be perfect from this day forward.
It's like you've got to continue that. How how do
people stay motivated towards that. Is there a toolkit that
they can use? Is there something that you Is it
just I'm doing the right role. So I'm going to
stay involved and engage in that process.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I guess when you, I guess being intentional about it
each day. I mean I've written it down even at times,
and put it as a calendar tickler to pop up
at eight am when I sit down at my computer
to ask the question, am I finding meaning and what
(11:45):
I'm doing? Am I making a difference in what I'm doing?
Am I using my God given talents to write that
difference is something that's meaningful to me? The other So
I don't I don't really have a good answer on
like how to keep that going other than to remember
(12:06):
that that's why we're here in the first place. And
anything less than fulfilling than fulfillment and rewarding work is
less than a fulfilled and rewarding life.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Right. It's to you said, stay intentional and stay focused
on what you're actually enjoying and you actually benefit from,
right and to remember those things right now?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
The question I didn't answer is the leader's role versus
the individual's role?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yes, all right?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
If there was one thing I could do if I
could get a billboard and tell the whole world or
megaphone and tell the whole world one thing. It's that
definition of fulfillment and that it's on you. I wish
I could tell the world. I'm convinced that. Look Gallup,
where I came from, I was a partner there leading
their culture transformation portfolio. We measure and you may have
(13:01):
seen the news. It's the lowest ever. You know, it
hovers around thirty percent of people who really enjoy their work.
The other seventy are indifferent or hated. And that don't
hasn't changed.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I showed up a Gallop twelve years ago, thirteen years ago,
wanting to change that number, and it didn't change.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Is it at Gallup or you were saying across the
most of the workplaces.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Oh, that's that's the average across the US. Globally, it's
even worse. It's it's more like half that fifteen percent
well enjoy their work. In the US, it's thirty percent
highly are engaged at work. And so I showed up
at Gallop thinking, okay, we're measuring it, We're going to
(13:43):
change it. Do we blame Gallop for the failure. I
know people who do. Hey, you guys, measure it? What
are you doing about it? Do we blame all the consultants,
all the leadership development? Do we blame all the billions
of dollars that have put into learning and leadership? I
just think it's evidence that it's not the system's fault,
the leader's fault. It's we show what is work for you.
(14:09):
That's the fundamental lie that we tell ourselves what is work?
Most of us show up to make money, just like
I did with investment banking. That's why I showed up,
and that was the mistake. We need to show up
for rewarding work, to make money and be it's not
(14:31):
and be fulfilled you're not fulfilled, and tell you are
making money and winning. So product fulfillment is the winning.
It's doing both and knowing you're doing both. So I'm
not going to take a job unless I know it
gives me the opportunity to do what I do best,
to make a difference in what I care about most.
(14:52):
If that was why I worked, If that is why
I chose a job, to do what I do best,
make a difference what I care about, it would change
everything I'm convinced it would change everything. You would get
leaders that are in the role because they're doing what
they do best, make a difference what they care about most.
You'd get managers with kids coming to them saying, Hey,
(15:13):
this and this about the platform, that and that about
our origination strategy, And it would be a completely different conversation,
not because of how I trained them, not because even
of why I promoted them, not why I hired them,
why they took the job in the first place, because
it was a chance to do what they do best,
make a difference to what they care about most. If
(15:34):
I could just stamp that on every kid that comes
into this world and convince them to not take a
job unless it answers that mandate, I think you'd have
better rewarding work and more higher engagement scores, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Absolutely, it's really about making sure that those opportunities are
available to people at some point too, right, and not
just people knowing that there is other opportunities there, but
also saying, hey, this is accessible to you, if you
want this job, this is what you can do. Because
I think, like you said before, fear drives a lot
of our decision making. People are afraid if they don't
(16:13):
have a job, I can't pay my bills. So they're
not going to go for that job that they want
because they're afraid they're going to lose their house, their car,
whatever it is. So, is there something that when you're
speaking to people, and you're speaking to somebody who's thinking
about making a career change, is there something you can
say to them where it's driving them away from fear
and towards what that potential is, what that other side
(16:37):
looks like.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Let me respond to your first part, which is to say,
leaders that that want to create engaging workplaces. You said
that create the opportunities hire people that are that can
answer yes to this job, can create an opportunity for
me to do what I do best, to make a
difference to what I care about most. If you start
(16:59):
high sharing people and promoting people based on that criteria
that this job will be fulfilling to them, rewarding to them.
That is what leaders can do. And so there is
an opportunity for leaders to help. But I do think
that the responsibilities on each of us. We can't rely
(17:20):
on someone else. And so when we talk about now
transitioning to that fear why I don't make the decision. Well,
some days I'm much more patient than others. But in
my more patient response to how do you get through fear,
it's I try and take people through a decision and
(17:45):
have them really feel the fear, really experience it, really
in their heart, feel that the worst case scenario happened, right,
I lost my house, I couldn't pay the electricity, whatever
and whatever, and then make a decision based on on that,
and then I what I call follow the domino. Follow
the domino. Okay, you just made whatever decision you made
(18:05):
out of fear. What happens next, what happens next, What
happens next, what happens next, what happens next? And ultimately
you're on your deathbed with regrets, you know, with with
life on lived. Right, you follow the domino with that,
and you get to that point and somewhere along the
(18:25):
line there's probably a midlife crisis where you've you've left
your wife and bon a Corvette and just made stupid decisions. Whereas, okay,
now let's change that emotion. Let's bring in an emotion
of gratitude, of abundance, a possibility of faith and belief
in yourself and in your future, what decision do you
(18:48):
do you take follow the domino. And that's my effort
again to show instead of tell. Again, people don't change
when you tell them something. If you can show them,
have them experience it, that would be my advice. Maybe
do that on your own. I think through a decision,
a major life decision, and go through, go through the
two different dominos domino effects, and see which one you prefer.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, it's something for As you said, it's not just
leaders that need that advice and bringing people together, it's
the individual themselves is looking for something else. In fact,
it's probably people that are working as an employee right
now in part of a team, rather than leaders themselves.
They actually need that. What am I going to do
for the next thing? What do I want to do?
(19:34):
How can I be more purpose driven in what I'm doing?
I was thinking in terms of leadership, asking how do
you communicate now most effectively with people that are we
have disparate teams all over the world. You've got teams
in different countries. How do you communicate online via email
(19:54):
and bring that message to message of your brand and
together that unified vision for a company if you have it?
How do you communicate that to a wide group of
people when we're all sort of you know, we're all
you and I and wakanda, you know, talking from different
parts of the parts of the world, you guys in
(20:15):
the US, ME and Canada. How do you get the
right message across as a leader and speak to people
that are perhaps separated by Latin maybe not language barriers,
but certainly cultural barriers. And these kinds of things that
we have to think about now in today's world, when
we are now working in different parts of the country
(20:35):
and sort of on different projects. What is the communication
tools that you would recommend to leaders?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
So the problem you're trying to solve in that question
is how do you get the hearts of people and
how do you get them committed to what they're being
paid to do? And it's not often communication problem is
(21:07):
actually a credibility problem. The leadership itself is not walking
whatever talking they're doing. So the first step to earning
the hearts of people, no matter where they are physically
or not if they're working virtually, is to make sure
as a leadership team, you're walking your top right. And
(21:30):
there's a self awareness that comes with that, and people
often miss two important parts of self awareness that usually
just think about how do I tend to act and
how does that affect others. That's one aspect of self awareness.
The second aspect of self awareness is where do I
come from? What do I stand for? What's important to me?
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Why am I here?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Basically who am I? At my core identity? So there's
an identity self awareness to miss. And then there's a
human self awareness that we overlook very often as leaders
because we think we're superhuman. But the cognitive biases, the limitations,
are finite abilities, and just the fact that we all
need grace and we all need forgiveness, and we all
(22:16):
mess up that human self awareness. When you add those
three up, you get a leader who walks their talk.
And that takes work. That takes coaching to get self
awareness on all three of those important Most coaches even
miss the all three of those parts of self awareness
that are important. Once you get that in place and
(22:37):
leaders are walking to talk, now how do you win
the hearts? I look at countries and how they do it.
They have a flag, they have an anthem, they have
a common language, they have rituals, they have holidays, celebrations, heroes, stories,
you look at what brings a country together, it's the
same thing that brings any group together. It's the same
(22:59):
art of facts, rituals, and traditions, and those are the
kind of things that you you establish in your organization.
And then you can live in Toronto, you know, in
Toronto or Vancouver and still be a Canadian. And it's
because of those common, common and consistently common aspects of
(23:20):
the culture that bring you together. And that's that's a
whole other conversation about culture.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
So in the analogy of the organization being like a
mini country, right, the key difference is organization is kind
of actual employment. Either they can lead, they can fire you,
or you can leave. It's much harder to do in
a country. What I'm trying to say is the power
(23:49):
is not with you in an organization, right, for various reasons.
So in in such a scenario, the question that Rob
was asking in terms of, you know, how can you
not force how can you cultivate this oneness that you know,
be a one like a single messaging? Has it been
(24:10):
an effective kind of a strategy? You think, just because
the balance of power is not with you in an organization,
but in a country, you are one in millions of people. Right,
nobody's going to throw you out of a country in
a normal day, but everybody gets fired from the jobs, right.
I'm just I'm just curious, you know, because it's I know,
the analgy you're trying to make, but just kind of
(24:30):
a curveball time in terms of a situation.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, you know, sometimes when people throw curveballs, you choose
not to swing, right, that'd be one option, but I'll
swing at this curveball. There is a difference, you mccooned.
I know you well enough to know that you have
a heritage of people who have left their country. So
(24:55):
there is power in the employee too, And as we
talked about before in your question, there is more power
than we realize if we can get through to the
other side of fear. But at the same time, it
is at will. They can fire us anytime. So can
you really create oness. You know, there's a whole concept
(25:15):
of we're not a family, we're a team. Don't call
us a family because you're not stuck with us. We
can part way as anytime, but we're a team here
to perform, and we're going to perform while we're all together.
As best as we can, and if we to make
personnel changes, we will, And I get it, you know.
Let me take an even bigger picture, and that is
(25:36):
that we all die, so eventually we all leave this earth.
And this is all temporary anyway. So whether it's an
hour we have together or a lifetime we have together,
it's still temporary. So from my perspective, I say, if
I'm going to interact with somebody, I'm going to treat
it and give it everything I have and be in
(25:58):
as best as I know how to be in, make
the best at that moment, that temporary moment, and it
could be seven minutes, it could be seventy years, you
know whatever. Like why would I hold back? Because I'm
afraid of what Rejection happens all the time, afraid of
losing happens all the time, afraid of it ending. Everything ends.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
So sustain the moment and enjoy the current situation as.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
You give it everything, give it everything while you're there,
and who cares if they fire you the next day?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Whatever?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
You were gonna die anyway, so it's going to finish,
you know, Like I don't know. That's my that's my perspective.
I think it's healthy sometimes just to remember that everything
is temporary in life, and so what are you gonna do?
Not give everything just because it's not gonna.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Last that yeah, yeah, it makes sense sense.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
That's a good point. It's it's it's something that people
also afraid to think about. Obviously, is death that temporary
part of it. But when you think about it, and
not to really the losing your job, not having the
right job, it's really it's an immaterial at that point,
all of it is immaterial. It's going for what you
(27:17):
want will help you now, and this is all we have.
We only have now. We don't know what happens in
the future. You absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
You only got one life to spend, you know. And
and what people hear sometimes is irresponsibility in this And
what happens when we follow our head and try and
be you know, completely responsible and stifle the heart. Is
that midlife crisis that I talked about. That's that's just
(27:48):
what happens inevitably if you if you hold out through
the mid life crisis and continue the same way to
just live with your head, you're gonna and you're just
gonna die with regret. It's just what happens. What we're
talking about is not ignoring one or the other, but
doing both, but leading with your heart and using your
head to get your heart where it wants to go,
(28:10):
because your heart is the least likely to change. Your
heart comes from how you were raised, your experiences with
your parents and your siblings and your community when you
were young, and as you developed and have these material experiences,
that's what your heart longs for. That's what your heart
wants again. And so when we get into our adult life,
(28:30):
as we're try and stifle that heart like it just
gets the point where it's going to explode. It's just
gonna be like enough enough of this nonsense. Already, give
me what I want. So instead of getting to that
point where it explodes, what we're saying is use your head,
be smart about it, get paid to do what you
(28:54):
do best to make a difference in what you care
about most is using your head to get your heart
where it wants to go. And that's a lifelong journey
because we experiences happen, things change, we get new. You know,
someone dies of cancer, I have a child born with
some ailment, and all of a sudden, my priorities change.
What matters to me changes, and I got it. Now
(29:15):
my heart wants something different, and I need to use
my head to figure out how to get my heart
what it is.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yeah, I had to get what your heart wants. That's enough,
by word to live by, I believe.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah. Yeah, And it's it's backwards from the way most
of us do it. Especially by the time we show
up looking for a job. We think it's one or
the other, but it's both. You've got to do both.
Lead with your heart, use the head.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
That's true. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
That so, yeah, we've talked a little bit about business
and about leadership now, but I'm curious, like, what is
it you're passionate about outside of your leadership work.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
You know, not to interrupt you, but the way you
introduced me was perfect. You know. I love being a guide,
and I'm a guide at work. I take every chance
to be a guide. I coach my kids soccer teams
to guide them. I guide. I'm a youth minister. I
guide those kids as best as I can. At home
(30:17):
with my wife, and sometimes, like I said, being a
guide means you got to explore and you mentioned the
dead ends. It's so true. Sometimes I hit dead ends,
and like I did with banking, and when a guide
people around that mind around that dead end. I so
I love to be a guide. And I grew up
(30:40):
in Belgium. My father worked for NATO, and so as
a self identified Belgi. Although my passport is US, I ride,
I bike, I cycle Eddie Murk. I grew up in
the town where Eddie Murk's grew up, just there near
tear Beard and Belgium, and so I ride. And I
(31:02):
do have a bike tour company that I spend a
lot of time on the weekends. So you say outside
of work, I have a bike tour company that I
run called me Jersey Bike Tours. And there's a lot
I could say about it, but that's how I spend
a lot of my weekends, a lot of my Saturdays
and then Sunday, Like I said, I'm at church with
(31:22):
my family guiding there.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
When you're on the bike, do you do you use
that to get away from the business side of things
or are you still focused on what goes on on
a day to day basis When you're on the bike.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
You know business, No, I let that go for sure,
But everything I do is so human. I'm still just
zeroed in on the human you know, dynamic, and I
tell everyone my guide with why do I love cycling
Because it's a full sensory experience. I go through this tour,
this experience full sensory and so it is a bit
(31:58):
of if you would, you could call it an escape,
but there's nothing I'm escaping from. For me, it's more
I'm going deeper into what it is that I love
about my about being human, deeper into the five senses.
And then the sixth sense for me is movement. So
you've got you know, seeing, hearing, smelling, touching, tasting, that's
(32:21):
all happening on the bike, and you've got movement, which
is for me a sixth sense more like the heart,
you know, going and it's a full it's a full
it's a way to experience life more fully.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, it's almost like you were talking about it before.
It's it's the complete idea of being in the moment.
It's it's all the senses at once. It's sort of
being moving forward as a group when you're on a
tour and being part of something bigger than yourself.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Right, that's right. Yeah, And all the analogies with cycling
and leadership and leadership teams are all very relevant that
I use often even on my tours. If I get
people that I know are in leadership positions outside of
the tour, you know, I'd give them if you would,
a little free consulting through the tour. But look, I
(33:11):
mean relationships are number one, and I'm meeting new people
on these tours, like relationships are where joy happens. And yes,
there are more important relationships than others. But I don't know.
I like people, so we hang out. We're eating a
big part of my tours are farm table tours or
(33:31):
vineyard tours. Either way, it's going to be food, and
food is something we all have in common. Food nice people, Yeah, food,
nice people. And then I throw in a little bit
of like I said, full sensory experience movement and just
like using the heart and using the body, and so
I just feel like, what a wonderful way to spend time.
(33:54):
And it's so simple, that's all we're doing, and people
will for it. I pay for it. I do bike
tours when I go out and travel too, because because
it's so human.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Something about being out there in nature with the blood flowing.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. You know, there's that freedom, accomplishment,
triumph that comes with it when you're when when you
get a nice especially with your road road bike, and
you get a nice smooth road and you're just it's
just like you're floating and just you know, cranking it out. Yeah,
(34:34):
it's it's rewarding. And you know what, I do a
lot of things, but what happens, but I choose very
intentionally things that help me do what I that allow
me to do what I do best, make a difference
and the things I care about most right and I
come to each new part of my life with more energy.
(34:57):
That's the goal. If if a bike tour bank touring,
and it happens starts to take my energy, I have
a handful of contractors that I call to help me
run the tours for me, I gotta take a break.
If the church ministering is starting to take my energy,
it's volunteer, it's time out. It's like we're taking a
(35:18):
couple of weeks off. It's not working. You asked earlier,
how do I keep focus on staying fulfilled and saying yeah, yeah,
And I think being honest with and prioritizing growing your
energy through your activities instead of doing activities that take
(35:38):
energy and recognizing that the same activity under different circumstances
can be one or the other.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, I was gonna ask you, actually, how do you
recognize when something is taking your energy? Do you just
get that that day? You don't feel it? Like? What
is that experience?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah? I do. I reflect a lot. So part of
my daily practice is a daily reflection, and I'm paying
attention to my emotions very very intentionally. Am I positive
or negative in these emotions? And where is it coming from?
(36:13):
And it's not a lot of times. Sometimes it's as
much as a handful of minutes. Other times I'll spend
half hour hour to it. I schedule it on my calendar.
It's scheduled. And the one thing I found through my
whole life, one reason why I'm a guide is because
when I was younger in the NATO State Department community,
(36:34):
there was such diversity in that community. And obviously I
love it because that's what I grew up with, right,
but such diversity, and for whatever reason, I was there
from first to twelfth grade. Everyone else is moving every
two three, five years, and so the new kid would
come in, they say, go talk to Jake, look at
(36:54):
you situated. And so I was the guide for all
these kids that would come in. And I realized that
when I was at Duke mkuland I remember being in
one of our immersion events late at night, you know,
after a project, just thinking is it that I care about?
What is it that would get me going? And I
went back to my youth and I realized as a kid,
(37:16):
I kept being put in that position to be a guide.
And so there's something about guiding. And ultimately I ended
up in consulting. It took me a little while, but ultimately,
and and and so that that has always been I've
seen that in my childhood. And I said, what made
me a good guy? Why did people come listen to me?
(37:38):
Sure I had the experience, Sure I was I thought,
you know, a decent listener. I cared about people. I
wanted the best, you know, and I believed in humanity. Yeah,
and so I believed the Japanese. You know, Paul, my
Japanese friend, could be friends with Erkan my Turkish friend,
(37:59):
and could be friends is with you know, Jessica from
South Africa. And I'm not even making up. Those are three,
you know, three people I hung out with and but
I realized it's because I took time as a kid
to reflect. I'm journals because I couldn't. I couldn't figure
it out at times like how come this Turkish kid
is so frustrated right now with such and such a person.
(38:22):
And I'm you know, I'm like, we're trying to be
a football team here, American football. And I get it
that they don't know how to play, but still we
can we can play. We can play nice. Yeah, we
don't need to argue with each other. So where's that?
And I and I felt that responsibility as a kid,
and as a kid, my solution was to work it
(38:45):
out in writing what's going on to the point where
I could go back to my Turkish kid and go
back to this other kid and be like, look, guys,
I think this is what's going on, and I think
this is how we can get through it. You're with me,
And so I kept I have kept intentionally that practice
(39:05):
because I believe it's what made me useful as a
guide in my early years and I think it continues
to serve me well now as a guide in any setting.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah, McConn and I actually spoke about that in the
last podcast, we talked about inspiration a lot bit what
inspired us to get into our careers. And that's a
great point you made about seeing what impact you could
have on even children. As a child, you knew I
could have this impact on other children bringing them together.
You knew what they needed before they needed it themselves.
(39:39):
And that's something that McConn talks about being an engineer
and figuring things out, and that's what he loved doing.
I talked about my career as a writer and being
a communicator, and that's what I enjoyed doing. But we
both figured it out from a young age. We were
lucky we figured it out as kids to be able
to go this is both what we're good at and
what we enjoy doing. And oftentimes I think people either
(40:02):
they don't figure it out or that they don't look.
They don't look around, and they don't like as you
were talking about, reflect they don't reflect on the positive experiences, right.
They don't see what that experience was and they don't
know how they benefited from it. Is there something about
the idea of writing down that experience that you think, like,
(40:22):
whether it's in business or personally, writing something down that
helps you ingrain that into your mind and sort of
like allows you to sort of reflect more effectively.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
I haven't found another way, you know, I've tried to
do the electronic given you know, I do notes. I
take notes that I that are easily searchable, so I
can go back and take them so when I write
something down if there's a key message that I want
to get and you know, I have yet to use
those notepads these days where you can write, because I
(40:57):
also I also find it valuable to be able to
just flip back, just flip back and read, not looking
for anything. That's the difference. I'm not looking for anything.
I'm just flipping back three four months and reading whatever
wrote oh oh oh, and then you know, and then
moving on. I don't do that. If it's electronic. I
(41:18):
have to know what I'm looking for, search for it,
get it.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
You need something tangible, right, like the pages physically right.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah, you're not going to head control left and try
to find something.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
So it's opportunistic if you would. And what I'm reminded
of just by flipping through the pages of written test.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
It's almost like our brains need that. Our brains need that.
Pats and recognition to figure it, figure everything out. It's interesting. Yeah, yeah,
I don't have any any good questions to continue anymore
because do you have anything to add.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
I just wanted to ask Jake raight. So, in terms
of leadership and terms of value that some that somebody
brings or tries to understand how to contribute to a
T team, has there been a disconnect in the expectation
and what they can bring to the team. Does it
question make sense in terms of say, for example, there's
(42:12):
an expectation of you as my as my manager from me,
but that's not what I bring to the team, right,
How was it that you as my manager identifies that
or fails to identify that? And you know what, I know,
the repercussions are pretty bad. But what would have you
Do you have an example of such a situation.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah, well, I'm just thinking of another example, Like when
I brought my Strengths Finder to my manager, she told me,
I want you running the analytics. You're my best person
with numbers, and I was like, I'll do it, but
(42:53):
it's not really what gets me excited. Like I'll put
very little extra time to that assignment, but I'll put
a lot of discretionary time into this origination strategy because
that gets me interested. You know, she shut it down,
and I think, I honestly, I think it was my
(43:13):
fault from the beginning because I took the job for
the wrong reason. It was my fault. I had to
own it. Well, I didn't have to. If I chose
to own it, I got to be where I am today.
If I decided I was a victim, I would still
be there, miserable and like I said, divorce and driving
a Corvette or whatever. Right, it was my choice. It
(43:34):
wasn't her fault that the expectations were different. There was
a very clear need that was defined, and I had
failed to really understand what fulfilled me. And so I
took the job for the wrong reasons. And so I
just think it's your life iteration, if you would that.
(43:58):
I learned from that experience. So then I iterated and
tried to find something that fit better and fit better
and fit better.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
That yeah, that makes sense. So instead of you going in,
But I think there's a disconnect in your expectation off
the job rather than your managed the expectation of you, right.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah, I mean, if you can change, if you can
have a conversation and get to that point where you
rely on expectations, right. But I wouldn't expect just again, fight,
accept or run. I often say, if the acronym is far,
you know you can.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
If you choose to.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Accept, you'll go far together. If you choose to fight,
you'll go far apart. And if you choose to run, well,
you know that's I don't have a line for that one.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
It's like it's like the fight, flight or freeze response
right when you are in a situation.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
It's just another way rephrase the same idea, and I
just think it's such a waste of time to spend.
You can try once, maybe twice. Like I said, try
not to tell show show them a product I should
have if I were to do that over again and
really want to do it right, I would I probably
(45:20):
should have said, hey, let me just show you what
I can do from an origination strategy instead of telling
her that I wanted to do it, show it, and
then if that still didn't change things, Just don't waste
your time. People don't change, organizations don't change very much.
(45:42):
And unless it's a relationship that you need or are
committed to already for a longer term. Then you got
to face those fears.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
You have follow the dominoes and you decide how you
want your That's such a good point about taking ownership
of your own situation. You decide what happens next. I
think a lot of people are sort of stuck in
this idea of my boss decides my future, whatever it is.
I'm afraid of this my you know, if it's a
(46:13):
relationship thing, my wife will go friend. It's like, you
can decide, you can decide what happens next. You just
have to take ownership of your situation. That's a great point.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Yeah, and so I talk about this often. You have
influence in life. I can try and influence these people.
I think Mukunda at a certain point, your question is
one about influence, influence, expectations. But there's only one thing
you control in this world. There's only one thing you control.
(46:43):
That's you. That's it. You're not going to be able
to control anything else, not your kids, not even your income,
not your career. We are under the illusion of control
of all these things, but we don't control anything except ourselves.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
So so do it.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Control you don't let anybody else do it. You're the
only one that controls you and you are the only
thing that you control.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
I think that's kind of a catch all, right, Jake,
you know, as a not a parting thought, but kind
of a catch all. What do you to say it
is in terms of I know there's a big topic, right,
so so we can't really go into the nitty gritty
of it, but I think we gave a very good
exposure or rather your experience in leadership in terms of
(47:33):
your value, what you bring to the table, expectations. I
think we govern touch base on a lot of different
aspects of who you are, right and what you want
to get out of life. Right, As a kind of
a wrap wrap it up kind of a thing, what
would you say is kind of a catch all all this?
Speaker 2 (47:51):
I agree with mccoon. I think that does it. I
think that control is a good is a good place
to finish because everything starts there. That's where you start
to address the fear. That's where you start to make
choices that are aligned more to what your heart wants
unless your head and Rob. I appreciate you and mccoon
(48:12):
guiding this conversation the good questions you asked. I hope
that it's abuse if not to anyone else, at least
to the three of us, to live more fulfilled and
more rewarding lives and.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
What have you said, Rob, Actually it did hit a
lot of my own thinking as well, and I think
Rob as well because Rob and I talk almost every day,
so it's kind of you are on the same page
in terms of wavelength, in terms of what expectations are.
It has a very interesting conditions.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Excellent. Well, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Yeah, thanks, Jake. We really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
Man.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
It's been so rewarding to hear. As I said, this
sort of like hits on some of the things we've
been talking about before, even in a few previous podcasts
that we've done, just the ideas of reflection and leadership
and engaging in your own mind what you want to do.
And I think these are such important topics to be
talking about. Even as you said, if it's just a
three of us, great, but if if anyone else can
(49:07):
benefit from it, I think.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
And I think a lot of people will definitely. Good
work you guys.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
Once again, Thank you all, Thank you, jas, thank you again,
thank you, thanks to back. Thanks
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