In this episode we're exploring a topic that's reshaping the way we connect and build relationships — the intersection of social media and dating.Joining me for this insightful discussion is Emily Pabst, the brilliant mind behind Remake the Rules. Emily talks about how dating has shifted from in-person interactions to online platforms, the impact of dating apps, and how the overwhelming number of options can sometimes make it harder for people to make decisions about who to date. Emily will share practical tips for navigating dating apps, setting boundaries in a hyper-connected world, and building meaningful relationships that go beyond the screen.
So whether you're single, swiping, or in a committed relationship, there's something here for everyone. Let’s break the mold and rethink the rules of love in the digital era.Join us for this interesting episode!
www.mentalwealthpod.com
www.pedalmyway.com
remaketherules.com
DISCLAIMER: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker’s own and do not constitute legal, medical, or other forms of professional advice. The material and information presented here is for general information and entertainment purposes only. The "Mental Wealth Podcast" and "Pedal My Way" names and all forms and abbreviations are the property of its owner and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service.
So whether you're single, swiping, or in a committed relationship, there's something here for everyone. Let’s break the mold and rethink the rules of love in the digital era.Join us for this interesting episode!
www.mentalwealthpod.com
www.pedalmyway.com
remaketherules.com
DISCLAIMER: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker’s own and do not constitute legal, medical, or other forms of professional advice. The material and information presented here is for general information and entertainment purposes only. The "Mental Wealth Podcast" and "Pedal My Way" names and all forms and abbreviations are the property of its owner and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Mental Wealth podcast.
It's Robin mccand here today we are so excited to
welcome Emilypapst of remaketh rules dot com. In this episode,
we discussed online dating how modern communication is changing how
we date and meet our partners. Emily shares powerful and
(00:26):
practical insights from her work with clients to help you
find more meaning, make better decisions, and ultimately build stronger
connections to others in the world around you. All right,
enough of the hard sell, let's dive right it. Emily,
thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate
your time.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited
to be here and to be talking with you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Bill.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Could you give a little bit more of a background
of Remake the Rules and what brings you today?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Sure? Absolutely, decision making, let alone making good decisions, is
more complicated, more difficult, and more frustrating than ever. That
is not because people are dumb or lazy. It is
because we are existing in an informational environment that human
beings have never experienced before. So yes, a lot of
(01:15):
our older strategies for making choices simply don't work anymore.
We have to figure out a new way. So that's
what I do. Emily Paths, founder of Remake the Rules,
and I teach people in organizations how to modernize their
decision making for the information age. So essentially, I help
people figure out how to integrate information technology, their digital
(01:39):
technology tools in a way that actually supports their goals,
supports their lives. And because digital technologies are so pervasive
in our world now, the problems I work on can
be almost anything from these very large scale administrative analytical
systems all the way to one of my favorite problems,
(02:00):
which is online dating. What we're going to be talking
about today, that's.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
The perfect segue to my first question. I really appreciate
that it makes it easier for me when you guess
do that. My first question when we sort of looked
into your background a little bit, is we're finding that
people are obviously using apps more for dating. How do
you think the switch to apps from meeting people in
person and the switch to apps and text based conversation
(02:24):
is changing how we date, changing our relationships?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Certainly, well, there is definitely a really strong relationship to
the way in which that apps are changing how we
date and the Internet is just changing how we live
our lives. So both systems they're kind of part and
parcel of the same changes. And those big changes, which
is our ability to connect and communicate with people all
(02:51):
over the world in real time, means that there is
a lot of change that is happening in the world too, right,
not just because of that capacity, but because of the
impacts of that capacity, people are able to learn and
think and see and question things like they've never been
able to do before. So we're kind of having this
(03:12):
huge shakeup that's happening, and that shakeup is happening in
dating too, So we see folks who are encountering people
and ideas through dating apps that they maybe would not
have been able to otherwise, and it is just challenging
to try to negotiate that, right, It is all new.
These are new negotiations, new communications, new encounters that people
(03:33):
are having. And to that end, it is just a
skills issue, right, This is not outside of people's capacity
to do well. It's just all new, so folks are
just figuring it out on the fly.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
So looking at how the decisions are made online and
how people are using apps to meet people, do you
think these apps are having a general positive influence in society,
positive influence on the world around us.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I don't think we know yet. I think that it
is going to take a while to see whether or
not we figure out how to really harness the incredible
potential of this tool in a way that is really
serving a majority of people. So what I do believe
in now that is the case, is that dating apps
have extraordinary potential, and how we use them is going
(04:24):
to be whether or not that potential is going to
be negative or positive, either on individuals or on society
as a whole. So if we are able to use
them to connect with people in ways we never have before,
to have more supportive and fulfilling relationships, and to grow
this support and love incredible right, huge benefits to the
(04:48):
individual and to society. If we are not able to
figure out how to use them for that, and we
find ourselves in this cycle of problematic relationships, greater frustration, isolation,
it is not going to be good for anybody.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
That's true, And I'm wondering, also, how do you make
sure that you are using these apps in the right way.
I know, for remake the rules, you help people make
better decisions with the technology of themselves. When you're teaching
someone to make better decisions individually relationship wise, what is
one of the major stumbling blocks that people have with
technology and when it comes to.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Dating, You know, one of the real double edged swords
with these digital technology tools is that they usually provide
feedback very quickly, Right, They just operate very quickly, So
you can swipe and swipe and text and swipe and
meet people. And as you are swiping, as you are texting,
as you're meeting people, you are getting feedback from that
(05:43):
as well. So then the question just becomes, right, what
are you doing with that feedback and how is it
supporting your future decisions? So what I see and what
I work with people on is that everyone has patterns
of behavior that create a greater likelihood of the same
outcomes happening over and over again. And what we want
(06:05):
is to recalibrate those patterns so that you get your
desired outcomes over and over and over again instead of
the outcomes that you don't want. So, in the context
of dating apps, that's going to be going on bad
dates over and over and over again. There is definitely
a population of people that's going to happen. We can't
totally get rid of anything like that because humans are
(06:26):
complicated and sneaky, But we can lean into a pattern
of behavior that will result in better days.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
And what does that? How can an individual start that process?
Do you see that from an individual standpoint where you
can sort of change that behavior or is it more
of a long term thing where you can have a
back and forth conversation then you can change it over time.
Someone listening to this right now can go, Okay, I've
been out with these losers the last couple of times,
I had terrible dates. How do I switch my thinking,
(06:56):
my decision making so that I can align myself the
more positive outcome in the future. Is there an answer
to that? That might be a very convoluting question.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I apologize, no, I got you, and here I'll give
you two pieces of it. Yes, that is something that
people can do, I think quickly in most cases and
can continue to grow on over time. So, because everybody
is different and everybody's relationship goals are different, I implement
this process that I call roor reflect, observe, assess, and realign.
(07:25):
So this is going to be an iterative process where
me and whoever I'm working with are actually observing their
decision making process as they move through the app, So
how they are choosing to construct their profile, how they
were choosing to swipe, how they were choosing to engage
in conversations, and who they choose to go out with,
and we're just talking about what each of those choices
(07:46):
is actually producing in this sort of downstream process that
will eventually lead them to either continuate connection with this
person or not. So that's kind of the broad overview
of how I work with people through this and how
other people can work through it with themselves, kind of
think about what they're doing, work with it with friends, family, whatever.
But to get to a very specific pattern that I
(08:08):
see frequently is that, in my experience, most people swipe
in two different ways. They either swipe right on literally
everyone right, so willing to meet this person. I'm matching matching, matching, matching,
matching with this person, or they swipe right only if
they believe that that person is going to be a
(08:29):
high compatibility probability, right, that they think that likely they
are going to achieve whatever their relationship goals are, right,
that this is spouse material, that this is whatever good
date material. And then they swipe left on everyone else.
And I think that both of those strategies do not
work because of the information environment available on data apps,
(08:51):
So do not do either of those strategies, and instead,
folks should swipe left on people that they strongly believe
they are incompatible with and swipe right on everyone else.
So the reasoning behind that is because dating app profiles
do not have information that is strong enough to determine compatibility.
(09:13):
It almost never actually exists inside of a dating profile.
So the fact that a person is already making decisions
about compatibility, we have a mismatch, right, We are making
choices with information that is not powerful enough to tell
us that. But I argue that dating apps often can
tell you if a person is incompatible, So you should
(09:35):
be swiping based on incompatibility exactly.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Yeah, So it's more of the process of elimination, is
what you're talking about. And how would somebody eliminate somebody
with the misinformation or rather lack of information, because it
goes both ways, right, lack of information, so they'll be
making the wrong choice if they swipe right. That can
(09:59):
also mean lack of information, meaning that they're making the
wrong choice by swiping left.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yes, so right, and here like we can get into
the sort of probabilistic thinking of it all is where
we're trying to decrease the likelihood of type one and
type two errors and what's happening with like You're right,
we won't know anything for sure based on a person's profile.
But my argument is that compatibility is much more complicated
(10:29):
and involves a lot of different qualities and pieces of
information to determine. You can determine a single piece of
incompatibility a lot more easily, right, because there's one thing
about a person that could make us strongly incompatible. And
I'm not talking about like small annoyances or minor X
or whatever I mean incompatibility, and that information can be
(10:52):
present on a profile.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Now, what do you think is an incompatibility?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So on strong potential? Incompatibility is someone's relationship goals, whether
or not they want to get married and be monogamous
or not. Right, If I am someone that wants to
be monogamous and wants to get married and someone is
stating that that is not their relationship goal, then we
are incompatible. I am sleeping left, right, Do I know
(11:19):
that we are then compatible? And that we will become
life partners. I do not know that, right, but I
am at least creating a candidate pool that is closer
and closer to a higher likelihood of compatibility.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You're increasing your chances of finding the right person by
immediately getting rid of people that are impatible. That's a
great way to look at it. I always think of
it as like the Netflix versus Blockbuster thing, where you
see you go to a blocklist to video, you would
have maybe three movies to choose from. Now you have Netflix,
where you can basically choose from ten thousand things that
you definitely are incompatible with.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I think that is such a good and important thing
to think about too. Is that technology It kind of
en hands us incredible positive potential while also making it
more challenging to take advantage of that positive potential because
it kind of scrambles our brains. Right. We are not
used to thinking on these scales, to having to ingest
(12:16):
this level of information and make those decisions on the
fly in a way that will eventually culminate into this
complicated social outcome, which in this case is like finding
someone that we want to spend an evening with, let
alone a lifetime with and so I'm trying to combine
these mathematical information science concepts to the digital technology part
(12:40):
of it because it really is necessary to navigate those
types of tools while also keeping it very human, because
that is really what is most important here.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Very fascinating. How do you think this transition happened before
the explosion of dating apps and web based meeting people?
Everybody is right or left nowadays?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Sure, you know, as you're asking that question, I'm thinking
back to sort of my own life trajectory. So I'm
an elder millennial, you know, which means that I kind
of came of age with the internet too, that there
was a before time. Yeah, right, Yeah, it's it's definitely
a very interesting pocket to be in.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I met my wife in college, so it was one
hundred percent in person.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
I met my wife online, but it was a website.
It was back in the dark ages of meeting on
a website rather than an apps.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
So yeah, there we go, and like dark age is
exactly it. You know, before smartphones, right before we had
kind of moved to these mobile devices and mobile apps,
everything was the course, like desktop based, web based, and
it was not cool for most people. And in most situations, right,
Like I remember folks myself included, who were kind of
(13:51):
messing around in those mid ats, right at the very
beginning and of sort of the greater increase and these
sorts of dating platforms, and it was weird, you know,
people would have questions. And now it is dominating the scene, right,
just absolutely dominating. And I think that the dominance is
(14:12):
certainly partly due to the normalizations not just of online dating,
but of solving problems through digital technology tools. Oftentimes that
is the first solution that we go to now that
that is just how we solve all manners of problems.
And part of that is again because the potential is extraordinary, right,
(14:34):
But that doesn't mean that we are always able to
reap the benefits of that potential. We're still working on it,
we're still figuring it out. And I think another part
of that is we humans generally culturally believe that the
more options that we have, the better. So this is
a way of getting at greater and greater and greater options, right,
(14:56):
which for many people, especially people who feel like they
are not well understood within their smaller communities, this is
great for them, which is wonderful, right. The strength of
the support and the connection is really the priority. And
that being said, we humans also have a harder time
managing more and more information, So we are simultaneously giving
(15:20):
ourselves more options, which for many people are probably better options,
but making it harder to parse through those options just
because of the volume. So this is the issue over
and over again, right, that we're encountering, and that I'm
trying to help people work through.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Now that you say that, I'm almost thinking of it's
like this sort of the mindfulness movement, why people are
sort of trying to get away from distractions and the
noise of all this bombardment of information find out what
brings them happiness and joy and engagement and fulfillment. It's
very interesting that more people are meeting online and not
(15:55):
in person, when a lot of my friends are solely
using technology to date and not meeting people person anymore.
I'm not sure whether that's your experience, But what do
you think about that sort of trying to find that balance?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Sure, I mean it balances it, right, and it's different
for everybody based on what they want in the situations
that they're in. I think the way that I end
up talking people through this is that every decision has
a consequence, and not necessarily good or bad, but there
is an outcome to it, and it's whether or not
(16:27):
that is going to be a greater support or a
lesser support to whatever your goals are.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
So, if today I were to say I'm giving up
online dating entirely I exclusively want to meet people in person,
that is absolutely something that I can do and that
I am welcome to do. But also it means that
I will be giving up the potential of this huge
candidate pool that I can access aline And if I
(16:55):
am super well aligned and have great access to these
situations with people who likely to be compatible with that
will not be much of a negative consequence for me. Right.
But if I happen to live in a place where
I do not feel well understood, I do not feel
well supported, I do not think that I am going
to get along with the folks that I am meeting
(17:16):
in person, that that is not going to work for me. Right,
we are creating a dead end for my goals. So
it really is just about where a person is trying
to get and the situation that they currently find themselves in.
And of course there's like the capacity to do a hybrid,
which people are doing all the time. They're organizing these
events for like minded people to all show up at
(17:38):
the same space in the same time. Great, you know,
necessitates that you have a large enough population that's able
to do that in those kinds of things. But we
have so many avenues and opportunities now, and it's just
figuring out what will work.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So I'm wondering whether AI has had any influence on
your work and what you're seeing with your clients in particular.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I definitely think that there is an AI creep happening.
I don't think it's like turn the page nine day.
We have a totally different environment, yet certainly the impacts
in pretty much every facet of our lives is going
to continue to grow. So I do think about that
quite a lot, but I tend, as I do, to
think about it more from the perspective of the decision
(18:21):
making that's happening as part of incorporating AI into our lives,
as opposed to sort of the product, the end result
that we get out of AI. So I think that's
kind of where a lot of the conversation sits. The
fact that we can have it produce conversations for us,
or produce profiles or produce photographs for us. And certainly
there are sophisticated and nefarious reasons why people are doing
(18:43):
that on dating apps, but there are also these more
sort of benign and hopeful reasons why people are doing that.
And it's to appear better. It is to appear like
a more desirable match or whatever.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
It's kind of like the first image you put on
your dating profile is always going to be the best
image of you. It's sort of a more updated version
of that. Right when we used to use online dating profiles,
you wouldn't put the worst photo out that. You always
want to present yourself in the right way. And maybe,
as you're saying, technology is helping us do that in
a more effective and efficient way.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, such a good example, because since we've been creating
dating apps, and certainly before that, but we'll stay in
the context of this online dating we humans have been
using our own brains to think through these things and
to decide what is going to make me more desirable,
what is going to make me whatever, whatever, whatever, I'm
going to put my best foot forward, what I think
my best picture is for it, or what I think
(19:38):
other people will think is my best picture for it.
So all of this decision making is happening, right, we
are doing it. It is not new, but now we
are outsourcing it to AI. And that is really what
I find most interesting is the choices that we make
to outsource our own decision making for these really critical
(20:03):
social questions. You know, if we're using AI to like
edit a paper, change colors on a you know it's happening,
there's going to be consequences. But the fact that we
are more than likely going to start using AI to
make these critical life choices for us is something that
I think is a bit of a different level and
something that I'm going to be cautioning people against that
(20:27):
this is sort of the rehumanizing the recentering that those
are decisions that we probably will want to own and
that we will probably want to dictate ourselves. And again,
these things are tools, right, they are not dictating our lives.
So how to find that balance between it being a
useful tool that is actually supporting our goals and what
we want versus sort of being pushed along by it.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, it's a great point. It's almost allocating your resources
in the most efficient way. But keep maintaining control over
the direction the direction out of your decisions is a
great point about it too. In terms of online dating,
there's always that big question of it's so different between
men and women, how men and women date meet each other,
and how they use these apps. From what I noticed
(21:12):
from my friends is my male friends are saying to me,
I can't meet people, This is impossible, This is just
a numbers game. I don't know how to meet anyone,
whereas my female friends seems seem to have more opportunities
and more dates. That's a sort of a very sort
of catch all way of looking at it. That's not
gonna be the same experience for everyone, but that's the
that's the general idea. Do you see a difference between
(21:33):
your male and female clients and how they use the technology?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Certainly? Yeah. All across the world, through all cultures, gender
socialization is incredibly strong, and it has kind of pushed
us into these patterns of belief and behavior that oftentimes
are not really supportive to the individual, and more than that,
are like really struggling to hold any water now that
we have changed society so much with all these digital tools. Right, Yes,
(22:01):
there are differences, much like in so many parts and
choices of our life because of that gender socialization. And also, yes,
there is a lot of frustration that is coming out
of that, because the friction that that socialization was intending
to decrease, the ways to set up who talks to
who first, and what expectations are going to be and
who decides what are now falling away, right because we're
(22:23):
sort of reinventing so many of these rules about ourselves
and what we want and how things work together. So
I understand the frustration there, and also I see the
big potentials right for people to be able to sort
of break free of these patterns and expectations that they
are doing just because they were kind of told to
(22:44):
do so. And in some ways, this sort of wrote
scripting is a way to keep people from connecting, because
they end up connecting as scripts, right, and not as individuals.
Certainly I see patterns, and I certainly see opportunities for
people to make choices about what parts of those patterns
(23:07):
work for them and that they want to commit to,
and what parts of those patterns don't, and that maybe
they can start exploring with and experimenting with.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
So the people you talk with do more men want
to meet in person versus more females because everything is
online now. I just wanted to see if there's still
a preference to meet in person. If so, who prefers
it more?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Most of the folks that I work with and talk with,
it is kind of through the lens of the dating app.
I end up talking to more folks like that. And
then as far as who is really shifting and pushing
away from it, I mean, it does feel like there
is a desire from all different kinds of people to
figure out something that works better, That there is an
acknowledgment that in most cases, online dating does not work well,
(23:51):
and sort of my argument is for those that have
done it successfully myself included, that it kind of often
works out incidentally and not because there is a good
design to make it work right, Like lucky, you just
happen to meet someone that you like, right, not that
you actually had a good system for getting to them.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
That's a great point. The algorithm brings you together, but
it's almost like the work you put into yourself is
obviously the most important part of it. It's not the
actual tool itself that's doing the work. It's interesting too,
when we're talking about meeting online. It feels like there
was a Harvard study I read that there's a loneliness
epidemic where I think it's something like a quarter of
eighteen to forty four year olds say they are either
(24:34):
they feel loneliness every day or they feel a sense
of personal loneliness often. How can someone who right now,
who says I'm just trying to figure this out. I'm
trying to figure out how to find someone online. We
always have we have access to all these this information.
We've got app overload now where we have all these
places to meet each other, except and now people have
(24:54):
more lonely than ever before. What can someone do in
that situation? It's one of those big things that I
know people listening right now, there's people out there that
are just experiencing that I want to find someone that
I connect with. What can they do in that situation?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah? You know, I would say for folks who are lonely,
struggling with loneliness, lonelier than they want to be, more
disconnected than they want to be, that I think a
very powerful reframing that folks can do is to think
about that as something that they want to change in
their lives period, Right, that they want to feel more connected,
(25:28):
not necessarily that they want to feel more connected in
a connection that looks precisely like this. Because we are
kind of pushed into a lot of expectations about what
relationships should look like, what connection should look like, what
our lives should look like, that make it difficult for
us to just pursue the things that are available in
(25:51):
front of us and work for us. Right, So, do
you want a life partner, Sure, maybe we can absolutely
continue to pursue that. But are you also of just
feeling disconnected and lonely. Let's look at those friendships, you know,
let's work on managing sort of the core of the
problem and not just this singular solution that is making
(26:14):
it feel worse or more hopeless or whatever. And I'm
very agnostic on what that connection looks like. Right. If
that is about disconnecting from digital tools and spending more
in person time with your friends and family, wonderful. If
that is creating more meaningful relationships with people online that
(26:35):
just aren't romantic, wonderful, Let's do that too, right again,
so many opportunities. It's just being able to sort of
rearrange the way that we think about them, and that
we incorporate them in our lives so that they really
support us, so that they really work for us.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I was find with social media, especially negative feelings tend
to be amplified. You see that with Twitter, for example,
You see the loudest voice is obviously the one that
is the most extreme, and it's amplified. Do you see
from your clients, not just in terms of dating, now
in terms of social media? Do you see that same
connection and then how they can use social media to
(27:15):
benefit their day to day experience. Is there something that
they can do to find other groups online? Is that
something that you would recommend as a first step or
would they recommend going to an individual like yourself to
find the best way to go about meeting people and
achieving that particular goal.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Well, I think that this right, this is like the
blessing and the curse of the situation that we find
ourselves in. We have lots of great opportunities for moving forward.
There are lots of avenues that a person can take
to get them to where they want to go, But
it can also be really overwhelming to try to parse
through and figure out what the handful of really effective
(27:54):
avenues is going to be that to me is the
real crusher of social media. Right. That, Again, we have
created these digital tools that are giving us access to
information that our brains are not evolutionarily well equipped to manage. Right,
So in order to stay alive, we have to spend
a lot of time thinking about who am I, Where
(28:17):
am I? What is the situation at hand? Like what
is my situational relationship to everything? And now instead of
sort of this in person environmental situation that we are
trying to ingest all the time, we are creating this way, way, way,
way bigger informational environment through social media, through whatever technology
(28:37):
tools that we're using to ingest a lot of information,
and it is causing a lot of challenges for us
to try to situate ourselves. And that is causing a
lot of discomfort and uncertainty in and of itself. So yeah,
that analysis paralysis is now happening when we are just like,
I wonder what everyone that I want high school is
up to? Right? Woops?
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, the union is coming up? What have I done
the past twenty years?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah? Right, it's like, oh no, and now we're spiraling? Okay, great, great.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So Emily, we've talked quite a bit now about the
different apps, and that both mccond and I certainly for
myself have learnt a lot about digital communication and about
decision making online. And we really appreciate your time. I
just want to make sure that we have sort of
a summary note we can provide to an audience now
dealing with the digital communication challenges that we've discussed.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah. Absolutely. I think one of the biggest takeaways is
that all of these new and confusing and powerful digital
technology tools are just that, they are just tools. They
are to help us live our lives. They are not
living a life in and of themselves, right, So it's okay,
(29:46):
take a step back, do less. They are there to
support you, and if they are not doing that, then
then you are allowed to do something different.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
It's like taking and if you guys see the office
where the map leads Michael into the lake, So yes,
if you're seeing, you know, do not do that right
in real life? Yeah, use your common sense, you know,
if it's a lake, do not follow the map, don't drive.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Into the lake. Emily, we really appreciate your time. Thank
you so much for joining us and educating us on
this technology. We'd love to learn more about Remake the Rules,
and we'd love to learn more about your work with clients.
It's fascinating stuff and I think the way technology is evolving,
people like yourself with this sort of data expertise are
(30:30):
only going to become more important in day to day society.
And I again, I really appreciate your time. Thank you
so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Thank you so much, it's really been a pleasure. People
can find me online Emily Paps to Remake the Rules,
Remake the Rules dot com, or on Instagram, YouTube, substag.
You can find me all over it Remake the Rules definitely.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Thank you so much, Emily. Thank you for coming on
and hope to have you again soon.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Thank you, Thank you, Emily.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I appreciate it. Thank you, Blas
Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Mental Wealth podcast.
It's Robin mccand here today we are so excited to
welcome Emilypapst of remaketh rules dot com. In this episode,
we discussed online dating how modern communication is changing how
we date and meet our partners. Emily shares powerful and
(00:26):
practical insights from her work with clients to help you
find more meaning, make better decisions, and ultimately build stronger
connections to others in the world around you. All right,
enough of the hard sell, let's dive right it. Emily,
thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate
your time.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited
to be here and to be talking with you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Bill.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Could you give a little bit more of a background
of Remake the Rules and what brings you today?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Sure? Absolutely, decision making, let alone making good decisions, is
more complicated, more difficult, and more frustrating than ever. That
is not because people are dumb or lazy. It is
because we are existing in an informational environment that human
beings have never experienced before. So yes, a lot of
(01:15):
our older strategies for making choices simply don't work anymore.
We have to figure out a new way. So that's
what I do. Emily Paths, founder of Remake the Rules,
and I teach people in organizations how to modernize their
decision making for the information age. So essentially, I help
people figure out how to integrate information technology, their digital
(01:39):
technology tools in a way that actually supports their goals,
supports their lives. And because digital technologies are so pervasive
in our world now, the problems I work on can
be almost anything from these very large scale administrative analytical
systems all the way to one of my favorite problems,
(02:00):
which is online dating. What we're going to be talking
about today, that's.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
The perfect segue to my first question. I really appreciate
that it makes it easier for me when you guess
do that. My first question when we sort of looked
into your background a little bit, is we're finding that
people are obviously using apps more for dating. How do
you think the switch to apps from meeting people in
person and the switch to apps and text based conversation
(02:24):
is changing how we date, changing our relationships?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Certainly, well, there is definitely a really strong relationship to
the way in which that apps are changing how we
date and the Internet is just changing how we live
our lives. So both systems they're kind of part and
parcel of the same changes. And those big changes, which
is our ability to connect and communicate with people all
(02:51):
over the world in real time, means that there is
a lot of change that is happening in the world too, right,
not just because of that capacity, but because of the
impacts of that capacity, people are able to learn and
think and see and question things like they've never been
able to do before. So we're kind of having this
(03:12):
huge shakeup that's happening, and that shakeup is happening in
dating too, So we see folks who are encountering people
and ideas through dating apps that they maybe would not
have been able to otherwise, and it is just challenging
to try to negotiate that, right, It is all new.
These are new negotiations, new communications, new encounters that people
(03:33):
are having. And to that end, it is just a
skills issue, right, This is not outside of people's capacity
to do well. It's just all new, so folks are
just figuring it out on the fly.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
So looking at how the decisions are made online and
how people are using apps to meet people, do you
think these apps are having a general positive influence in society,
positive influence on the world around us.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I don't think we know yet. I think that it
is going to take a while to see whether or
not we figure out how to really harness the incredible
potential of this tool in a way that is really
serving a majority of people. So what I do believe
in now that is the case, is that dating apps
have extraordinary potential, and how we use them is going
(04:24):
to be whether or not that potential is going to
be negative or positive, either on individuals or on society
as a whole. So if we are able to use
them to connect with people in ways we never have before,
to have more supportive and fulfilling relationships, and to grow
this support and love incredible right, huge benefits to the
(04:48):
individual and to society. If we are not able to
figure out how to use them for that, and we
find ourselves in this cycle of problematic relationships, greater frustration, isolation,
it is not going to be good for anybody.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
That's true, And I'm wondering, also, how do you make
sure that you are using these apps in the right way.
I know, for remake the rules, you help people make
better decisions with the technology of themselves. When you're teaching
someone to make better decisions individually relationship wise, what is
one of the major stumbling blocks that people have with
technology and when it comes to.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Dating, You know, one of the real double edged swords
with these digital technology tools is that they usually provide
feedback very quickly, Right, They just operate very quickly, So
you can swipe and swipe and text and swipe and
meet people. And as you are swiping, as you are texting,
as you're meeting people, you are getting feedback from that
(05:43):
as well. So then the question just becomes, right, what
are you doing with that feedback and how is it
supporting your future decisions? So what I see and what
I work with people on is that everyone has patterns
of behavior that create a greater likelihood of the same
outcomes happening over and over again. And what we want
(06:05):
is to recalibrate those patterns so that you get your
desired outcomes over and over and over again instead of
the outcomes that you don't want. So, in the context
of dating apps, that's going to be going on bad
dates over and over and over again. There is definitely
a population of people that's going to happen. We can't
totally get rid of anything like that because humans are
(06:26):
complicated and sneaky, But we can lean into a pattern
of behavior that will result in better days.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
And what does that? How can an individual start that process?
Do you see that from an individual standpoint where you
can sort of change that behavior or is it more
of a long term thing where you can have a
back and forth conversation then you can change it over time.
Someone listening to this right now can go, Okay, I've
been out with these losers the last couple of times,
I had terrible dates. How do I switch my thinking,
(06:56):
my decision making so that I can align myself the
more positive outcome in the future. Is there an answer
to that? That might be a very convoluting question.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I apologize, no, I got you, and here I'll give
you two pieces of it. Yes, that is something that
people can do, I think quickly in most cases and
can continue to grow on over time. So, because everybody
is different and everybody's relationship goals are different, I implement
this process that I call roor reflect, observe, assess, and realign.
(07:25):
So this is going to be an iterative process where
me and whoever I'm working with are actually observing their
decision making process as they move through the app, So
how they are choosing to construct their profile, how they
were choosing to swipe, how they were choosing to engage
in conversations, and who they choose to go out with,
and we're just talking about what each of those choices
(07:46):
is actually producing in this sort of downstream process that
will eventually lead them to either continuate connection with this
person or not. So that's kind of the broad overview
of how I work with people through this and how
other people can work through it with themselves, kind of
think about what they're doing, work with it with friends, family, whatever.
But to get to a very specific pattern that I
(08:08):
see frequently is that, in my experience, most people swipe
in two different ways. They either swipe right on literally
everyone right, so willing to meet this person. I'm matching matching, matching, matching,
matching with this person, or they swipe right only if
they believe that that person is going to be a
(08:29):
high compatibility probability, right, that they think that likely they
are going to achieve whatever their relationship goals are, right,
that this is spouse material, that this is whatever good
date material. And then they swipe left on everyone else.
And I think that both of those strategies do not
work because of the information environment available on data apps,
(08:51):
So do not do either of those strategies, and instead,
folks should swipe left on people that they strongly believe
they are incompatible with and swipe right on everyone else.
So the reasoning behind that is because dating app profiles
do not have information that is strong enough to determine compatibility.
(09:13):
It almost never actually exists inside of a dating profile.
So the fact that a person is already making decisions
about compatibility, we have a mismatch, right, We are making
choices with information that is not powerful enough to tell
us that. But I argue that dating apps often can
tell you if a person is incompatible, So you should
(09:35):
be swiping based on incompatibility exactly.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Yeah, So it's more of the process of elimination, is
what you're talking about. And how would somebody eliminate somebody
with the misinformation or rather lack of information, because it
goes both ways, right, lack of information, so they'll be
making the wrong choice if they swipe right. That can
(09:59):
also mean lack of information, meaning that they're making the
wrong choice by swiping left.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yes, so right, and here like we can get into
the sort of probabilistic thinking of it all is where
we're trying to decrease the likelihood of type one and
type two errors and what's happening with like You're right,
we won't know anything for sure based on a person's profile.
But my argument is that compatibility is much more complicated
(10:29):
and involves a lot of different qualities and pieces of
information to determine. You can determine a single piece of
incompatibility a lot more easily, right, because there's one thing
about a person that could make us strongly incompatible. And
I'm not talking about like small annoyances or minor X
or whatever I mean incompatibility, and that information can be
(10:52):
present on a profile.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Now, what do you think is an incompatibility?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So on strong potential? Incompatibility is someone's relationship goals, whether
or not they want to get married and be monogamous
or not. Right, If I am someone that wants to
be monogamous and wants to get married and someone is
stating that that is not their relationship goal, then we
are incompatible. I am sleeping left, right, Do I know
(11:19):
that we are then compatible? And that we will become
life partners. I do not know that, right, but I
am at least creating a candidate pool that is closer
and closer to a higher likelihood of compatibility.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You're increasing your chances of finding the right person by
immediately getting rid of people that are impatible. That's a
great way to look at it. I always think of
it as like the Netflix versus Blockbuster thing, where you
see you go to a blocklist to video, you would
have maybe three movies to choose from. Now you have Netflix,
where you can basically choose from ten thousand things that
you definitely are incompatible with.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I think that is such a good and important thing
to think about too. Is that technology It kind of
en hands us incredible positive potential while also making it
more challenging to take advantage of that positive potential because
it kind of scrambles our brains. Right. We are not
used to thinking on these scales, to having to ingest
(12:16):
this level of information and make those decisions on the
fly in a way that will eventually culminate into this
complicated social outcome, which in this case is like finding
someone that we want to spend an evening with, let
alone a lifetime with and so I'm trying to combine
these mathematical information science concepts to the digital technology part
(12:40):
of it because it really is necessary to navigate those
types of tools while also keeping it very human, because
that is really what is most important here.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Very fascinating. How do you think this transition happened before
the explosion of dating apps and web based meeting people?
Everybody is right or left nowadays?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Sure, you know, as you're asking that question, I'm thinking
back to sort of my own life trajectory. So I'm
an elder millennial, you know, which means that I kind
of came of age with the internet too, that there
was a before time. Yeah, right, Yeah, it's it's definitely
a very interesting pocket to be in.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I met my wife in college, so it was one
hundred percent in person.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
I met my wife online, but it was a website.
It was back in the dark ages of meeting on
a website rather than an apps.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
So yeah, there we go, and like dark age is
exactly it. You know, before smartphones, right before we had
kind of moved to these mobile devices and mobile apps,
everything was the course, like desktop based, web based, and
it was not cool for most people. And in most situations, right,
Like I remember folks myself included, who were kind of
(13:51):
messing around in those mid ats, right at the very
beginning and of sort of the greater increase and these
sorts of dating platforms, and it was weird, you know,
people would have questions. And now it is dominating the scene, right,
just absolutely dominating. And I think that the dominance is
(14:12):
certainly partly due to the normalizations not just of online dating,
but of solving problems through digital technology tools. Oftentimes that
is the first solution that we go to now that
that is just how we solve all manners of problems.
And part of that is again because the potential is extraordinary, right,
(14:34):
But that doesn't mean that we are always able to
reap the benefits of that potential. We're still working on it,
we're still figuring it out. And I think another part
of that is we humans generally culturally believe that the
more options that we have, the better. So this is
a way of getting at greater and greater and greater options, right,
(14:56):
which for many people, especially people who feel like they
are not well understood within their smaller communities, this is
great for them, which is wonderful, right. The strength of
the support and the connection is really the priority. And
that being said, we humans also have a harder time
managing more and more information, So we are simultaneously giving
(15:20):
ourselves more options, which for many people are probably better options,
but making it harder to parse through those options just
because of the volume. So this is the issue over
and over again, right, that we're encountering, and that I'm
trying to help people work through.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Now that you say that, I'm almost thinking of it's
like this sort of the mindfulness movement, why people are
sort of trying to get away from distractions and the
noise of all this bombardment of information find out what
brings them happiness and joy and engagement and fulfillment. It's
very interesting that more people are meeting online and not
(15:55):
in person, when a lot of my friends are solely
using technology to date and not meeting people person anymore.
I'm not sure whether that's your experience, But what do
you think about that sort of trying to find that balance?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Sure, I mean it balances it, right, and it's different
for everybody based on what they want in the situations
that they're in. I think the way that I end
up talking people through this is that every decision has
a consequence, and not necessarily good or bad, but there
is an outcome to it, and it's whether or not
(16:27):
that is going to be a greater support or a
lesser support to whatever your goals are.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
So, if today I were to say I'm giving up
online dating entirely I exclusively want to meet people in person,
that is absolutely something that I can do and that
I am welcome to do. But also it means that
I will be giving up the potential of this huge
candidate pool that I can access aline And if I
(16:55):
am super well aligned and have great access to these
situations with people who likely to be compatible with that
will not be much of a negative consequence for me. Right.
But if I happen to live in a place where
I do not feel well understood, I do not feel
well supported, I do not think that I am going
to get along with the folks that I am meeting
(17:16):
in person, that that is not going to work for me. Right,
we are creating a dead end for my goals. So
it really is just about where a person is trying
to get and the situation that they currently find themselves in.
And of course there's like the capacity to do a hybrid,
which people are doing all the time. They're organizing these
events for like minded people to all show up at
(17:38):
the same space in the same time. Great, you know,
necessitates that you have a large enough population that's able
to do that in those kinds of things. But we
have so many avenues and opportunities now, and it's just
figuring out what will work.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So I'm wondering whether AI has had any influence on
your work and what you're seeing with your clients in particular.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I definitely think that there is an AI creep happening.
I don't think it's like turn the page nine day.
We have a totally different environment, yet certainly the impacts
in pretty much every facet of our lives is going
to continue to grow. So I do think about that
quite a lot, but I tend, as I do, to
think about it more from the perspective of the decision
(18:21):
making that's happening as part of incorporating AI into our lives,
as opposed to sort of the product, the end result
that we get out of AI. So I think that's
kind of where a lot of the conversation sits. The
fact that we can have it produce conversations for us,
or produce profiles or produce photographs for us. And certainly
there are sophisticated and nefarious reasons why people are doing
(18:43):
that on dating apps, but there are also these more
sort of benign and hopeful reasons why people are doing that.
And it's to appear better. It is to appear like
a more desirable match or whatever.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
It's kind of like the first image you put on
your dating profile is always going to be the best
image of you. It's sort of a more updated version
of that. Right when we used to use online dating profiles,
you wouldn't put the worst photo out that. You always
want to present yourself in the right way. And maybe,
as you're saying, technology is helping us do that in
a more effective and efficient way.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, such a good example, because since we've been creating
dating apps, and certainly before that, but we'll stay in
the context of this online dating we humans have been
using our own brains to think through these things and
to decide what is going to make me more desirable,
what is going to make me whatever, whatever, whatever, I'm
going to put my best foot forward, what I think
my best picture is for it, or what I think
(19:38):
other people will think is my best picture for it.
So all of this decision making is happening, right, we
are doing it. It is not new, but now we
are outsourcing it to AI. And that is really what
I find most interesting is the choices that we make
to outsource our own decision making for these really critical
(20:03):
social questions. You know, if we're using AI to like
edit a paper, change colors on a you know it's happening,
there's going to be consequences. But the fact that we
are more than likely going to start using AI to
make these critical life choices for us is something that
I think is a bit of a different level and
something that I'm going to be cautioning people against that
(20:27):
this is sort of the rehumanizing the recentering that those
are decisions that we probably will want to own and
that we will probably want to dictate ourselves. And again,
these things are tools, right, they are not dictating our lives.
So how to find that balance between it being a
useful tool that is actually supporting our goals and what
we want versus sort of being pushed along by it.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, it's a great point. It's almost allocating your resources
in the most efficient way. But keep maintaining control over
the direction the direction out of your decisions is a
great point about it too. In terms of online dating,
there's always that big question of it's so different between
men and women, how men and women date meet each other,
and how they use these apps. From what I noticed
(21:12):
from my friends is my male friends are saying to me,
I can't meet people, This is impossible, This is just
a numbers game. I don't know how to meet anyone,
whereas my female friends seems seem to have more opportunities
and more dates. That's a sort of a very sort
of catch all way of looking at it. That's not
gonna be the same experience for everyone, but that's the
that's the general idea. Do you see a difference between
(21:33):
your male and female clients and how they use the technology?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Certainly? Yeah. All across the world, through all cultures, gender
socialization is incredibly strong, and it has kind of pushed
us into these patterns of belief and behavior that oftentimes
are not really supportive to the individual, and more than that,
are like really struggling to hold any water now that
we have changed society so much with all these digital tools. Right, Yes,
(22:01):
there are differences, much like in so many parts and
choices of our life because of that gender socialization. And also, yes,
there is a lot of frustration that is coming out
of that, because the friction that that socialization was intending
to decrease, the ways to set up who talks to
who first, and what expectations are going to be and
who decides what are now falling away, right because we're
(22:23):
sort of reinventing so many of these rules about ourselves
and what we want and how things work together. So
I understand the frustration there, and also I see the
big potentials right for people to be able to sort
of break free of these patterns and expectations that they
are doing just because they were kind of told to
(22:44):
do so. And in some ways, this sort of wrote
scripting is a way to keep people from connecting, because
they end up connecting as scripts, right, and not as individuals.
Certainly I see patterns, and I certainly see opportunities for
people to make choices about what parts of those patterns
(23:07):
work for them and that they want to commit to,
and what parts of those patterns don't, and that maybe
they can start exploring with and experimenting with.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
So the people you talk with do more men want
to meet in person versus more females because everything is
online now. I just wanted to see if there's still
a preference to meet in person. If so, who prefers
it more?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Most of the folks that I work with and talk with,
it is kind of through the lens of the dating app.
I end up talking to more folks like that. And
then as far as who is really shifting and pushing
away from it, I mean, it does feel like there
is a desire from all different kinds of people to
figure out something that works better, That there is an
acknowledgment that in most cases, online dating does not work well,
(23:51):
and sort of my argument is for those that have
done it successfully myself included, that it kind of often
works out incidentally and not because there is a good
design to make it work right, Like lucky, you just
happen to meet someone that you like, right, not that
you actually had a good system for getting to them.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
That's a great point. The algorithm brings you together, but
it's almost like the work you put into yourself is
obviously the most important part of it. It's not the
actual tool itself that's doing the work. It's interesting too,
when we're talking about meeting online. It feels like there
was a Harvard study I read that there's a loneliness
epidemic where I think it's something like a quarter of
eighteen to forty four year olds say they are either
(24:34):
they feel loneliness every day or they feel a sense
of personal loneliness often. How can someone who right now,
who says I'm just trying to figure this out. I'm
trying to figure out how to find someone online. We
always have we have access to all these this information.
We've got app overload now where we have all these
places to meet each other, except and now people have
(24:54):
more lonely than ever before. What can someone do in
that situation? It's one of those big things that I
know people listening right now, there's people out there that
are just experiencing that I want to find someone that
I connect with. What can they do in that situation?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah? You know, I would say for folks who are lonely,
struggling with loneliness, lonelier than they want to be, more
disconnected than they want to be, that I think a
very powerful reframing that folks can do is to think
about that as something that they want to change in
their lives period, Right, that they want to feel more connected,
(25:28):
not necessarily that they want to feel more connected in
a connection that looks precisely like this. Because we are
kind of pushed into a lot of expectations about what
relationships should look like, what connection should look like, what
our lives should look like, that make it difficult for
us to just pursue the things that are available in
(25:51):
front of us and work for us. Right, So, do
you want a life partner, Sure, maybe we can absolutely
continue to pursue that. But are you also of just
feeling disconnected and lonely. Let's look at those friendships, you know,
let's work on managing sort of the core of the
problem and not just this singular solution that is making
(26:14):
it feel worse or more hopeless or whatever. And I'm
very agnostic on what that connection looks like. Right. If
that is about disconnecting from digital tools and spending more
in person time with your friends and family, wonderful. If
that is creating more meaningful relationships with people online that
(26:35):
just aren't romantic, wonderful, Let's do that too, right again,
so many opportunities. It's just being able to sort of
rearrange the way that we think about them, and that
we incorporate them in our lives so that they really
support us, so that they really work for us.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I was find with social media, especially negative feelings tend
to be amplified. You see that with Twitter, for example,
You see the loudest voice is obviously the one that
is the most extreme, and it's amplified. Do you see
from your clients, not just in terms of dating, now
in terms of social media? Do you see that same
connection and then how they can use social media to
(27:15):
benefit their day to day experience. Is there something that
they can do to find other groups online? Is that
something that you would recommend as a first step or
would they recommend going to an individual like yourself to
find the best way to go about meeting people and
achieving that particular goal.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Well, I think that this right, this is like the
blessing and the curse of the situation that we find
ourselves in. We have lots of great opportunities for moving forward.
There are lots of avenues that a person can take
to get them to where they want to go, But
it can also be really overwhelming to try to parse
through and figure out what the handful of really effective
(27:54):
avenues is going to be that to me is the
real crusher of social media. Right. That, Again, we have
created these digital tools that are giving us access to
information that our brains are not evolutionarily well equipped to manage. Right,
So in order to stay alive, we have to spend
a lot of time thinking about who am I, Where
(28:17):
am I? What is the situation at hand? Like what
is my situational relationship to everything? And now instead of
sort of this in person environmental situation that we are
trying to ingest all the time, we are creating this way, way, way,
way bigger informational environment through social media, through whatever technology
(28:37):
tools that we're using to ingest a lot of information,
and it is causing a lot of challenges for us
to try to situate ourselves. And that is causing a
lot of discomfort and uncertainty in and of itself. So yeah,
that analysis paralysis is now happening when we are just like,
I wonder what everyone that I want high school is
up to? Right? Woops?
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, the union is coming up? What have I done
the past twenty years?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah? Right, it's like, oh no, and now we're spiraling? Okay, great, great.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So Emily, we've talked quite a bit now about the
different apps, and that both mccond and I certainly for
myself have learnt a lot about digital communication and about
decision making online. And we really appreciate your time. I
just want to make sure that we have sort of
a summary note we can provide to an audience now
dealing with the digital communication challenges that we've discussed.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah. Absolutely. I think one of the biggest takeaways is
that all of these new and confusing and powerful digital
technology tools are just that, they are just tools. They
are to help us live our lives. They are not
living a life in and of themselves, right, So it's okay,
(29:46):
take a step back, do less. They are there to
support you, and if they are not doing that, then
then you are allowed to do something different.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
It's like taking and if you guys see the office
where the map leads Michael into the lake, So yes,
if you're seeing, you know, do not do that right
in real life? Yeah, use your common sense, you know,
if it's a lake, do not follow the map, don't drive.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Into the lake. Emily, we really appreciate your time. Thank
you so much for joining us and educating us on
this technology. We'd love to learn more about Remake the Rules,
and we'd love to learn more about your work with clients.
It's fascinating stuff and I think the way technology is evolving,
people like yourself with this sort of data expertise are
(30:30):
only going to become more important in day to day society.
And I again, I really appreciate your time. Thank you
so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Thank you so much, it's really been a pleasure. People
can find me online Emily Paps to Remake the Rules,
Remake the Rules dot com, or on Instagram, YouTube, substag.
You can find me all over it Remake the Rules definitely.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Thank you so much, Emily. Thank you for coming on
and hope to have you again soon.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Thank you, Thank you, Emily.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I appreciate it. Thank you, Blas
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