July 10, 2025 • 34 mins
In this candid and insightful episode, we sit down with Pam and Amy from the Canned Podcast to explore one of the most challenging professional experiences many of us will face: getting fired. Far from just another career setback, losing a job can trigger a complex web of emotions, self-doubt, and uncertainty about the future.
Pam and Amy bring their expertise and personal experiences to discuss the often-overlooked psychological impact of termination. They dive deep into the mental health aspects of job loss, from the initial shock and shame to the longer-term effects on self-esteem and identity. The conversation explores how our sense of worth can become entangled with our professional roles, and what happens when that foundation suddenly shifts.
Beyond the emotional journey, Pam and Amy provide practical guidance on the immediate decisions and options available during the separation period. Whether you're currently facing this situation or want to be prepared for the unexpected, this episode provides valuable insights on turning this challenging chapter into an opportunity for growth and reinvention.
Join us for an honest, compassionate discussion that removes the stigma around getting fired and empowers listeners with both the emotional tools and practical knowledge needed to navigate this difficult but often transformative experience.
www.mentalwealthpod.com
DISCLAIMER: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker’s own and do not constitute legal, medical, or other forms of professional advice. The material and information presented here is for general information and entertainment purposes only. The "Mental Wealth Podcast" and "Pedal My Way" names and all forms and abbreviations are the property of its owner and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service.
Pam and Amy bring their expertise and personal experiences to discuss the often-overlooked psychological impact of termination. They dive deep into the mental health aspects of job loss, from the initial shock and shame to the longer-term effects on self-esteem and identity. The conversation explores how our sense of worth can become entangled with our professional roles, and what happens when that foundation suddenly shifts.
Beyond the emotional journey, Pam and Amy provide practical guidance on the immediate decisions and options available during the separation period. Whether you're currently facing this situation or want to be prepared for the unexpected, this episode provides valuable insights on turning this challenging chapter into an opportunity for growth and reinvention.
Join us for an honest, compassionate discussion that removes the stigma around getting fired and empowers listeners with both the emotional tools and practical knowledge needed to navigate this difficult but often transformative experience.
www.mentalwealthpod.com
DISCLAIMER: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker’s own and do not constitute legal, medical, or other forms of professional advice. The material and information presented here is for general information and entertainment purposes only. The "Mental Wealth Podcast" and "Pedal My Way" names and all forms and abbreviations are the property of its owner and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We'd like to start today's podcast with a brief announcement.
We are delighted to share with you that the Mental
Wealth Podcast has partnered with the American Red Cross. As
part of our partnership, fifty percent of all proceeds from
products purchased through our online store will now go to
support the urgent needs of the American Red Cross. We
(00:22):
want to thank everyone at the American Red Cross for
their instrumental work. Please visit support dot mentalwealthpod dot com
to learn more about our partnership and thank you everybody
for your support. What if getting fired wasn't the end
(00:43):
of something, but the start of finally figuring out who
you are? We sat down with Pam and Amy from
the Canned Podcast to unpack the emotional rollercoaster that comes
with losing your job. We talk about identity, shame, resilience,
and how to navigate the mental fallout. If you've ever
been let go and wondered what comes next, this conversation
(01:05):
is for you. Hope you enjoy it. For add three
episodes of the Mental Wealth podcasts, head to mentalwealthpod dot
gumroad dot com. Pam and Amy, you could like to
introduce the can podcast to our audience.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Sure. My name is Pam Mandela. I'm the host of
Canned Conversations About Getting Fired, which is exactly like it
sounds like from the title. It's Conversations about getting fired.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
And I'm Amy Gooth and I produce the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
When I heard about the idea for the CAN podcast,
I was first of all very jealous because I was like,
that's such a great idea for a podcast. I was like,
that's brilliant. I love it. It's such a universal experience
and everyone has that story of a bad boss or
just that experience of going through the firing process. I'd
love to find out what the origin story is for
the podcast, if you could tell me.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
It is the most obvious thing, which is that I
got fired. So I sat on my couch for about
two days and I thought, something is funny about this experience.
Something doesn't sit right with me. And I got on
Slack with Amy and said, Amy, I want to do
this thing.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
And I was very enthusiastic about the idea right away.
I loved it because immediately when you hear it, you go,
oh my gosh, that's such a good idea.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Why does this not exist already?
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Pam had shared with me the whole process leading up
to her getting fired, and so I knew kind of
the ins and outs of it. And immediately when she
put the call out for the original, like the initial
group of people, it just resonated with people in that
same way. People understood it immediately of like, yeah, wait,
why don't we talk about this? I mean immediately it
just kind of clicked. And every time I tell somebody
(02:32):
about the podcast, they're like, oh my god, that's such
a good idea. Why does that exist?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Is there a particular guest you've had recently that you
can talk about that resonates in most with you? Right now?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
The thing that I am struck with is not that
there is one particular guest that stands out, but that
every single person that we've spoken with has some kind
of remarkable insight, They have some kind of remarkable gift.
When they're given the opportunity to talk about the experience openly,
they give us so much to sort of process and
(03:03):
different ways to think.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
About what it means to get fired. Yeah, I would
agree with that.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
No matter what industry somebody is talking about that they
were in prior to getting fired, there are just themes
that go across it. There's dynamics between boss and worker
that just echo out throughout all of capitalism and affect everybody.
There are themes that ripple out in how you never
get the satisfaction or the dignity of the real truth.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
There's always just some kind of.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Like fabricated quick story. There's always some kind of coldness
from the person doing the firing. There's always this embarrassment
and there's this kind of shame attached to it. And
then there's always this epiphany of like, well, wait a minute,
I know no, this is all this is not truth
about me. And it's almost like when your truth gets
(03:53):
rattled that hard, it kind of forces your inner self
to step forward in a more powerful way.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
And I really love the guests that.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Have done something really powerful after getting fired, that started
a business or completely changed and are just so happy.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
They don't even know what to.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Do with themselves now, because that was so rattled within
them that they came out of it at the end,
they it became a victory for them, you know, they
were able to reclaim something about themselves on the other
side of it.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
That's such a good point is that people don't often
go through the process of being fired, and they go
through the emotions of it, but then they don't they're
not maybe ready to think about the next step without
what that process looks like. And then afterwards, on reflection,
it almost becomes a foundation for growth in the future.
Is there a surprising element perhaps that you've learned about
the process of being fired by speaking to so many
(04:45):
people about that.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That's a really good question. I'm surprised every time somebody
tells me a story. None of these stories are boring. Ever,
A thing that's surprising for me from a more philosophical
point of view is that everybody seems to cross transition
where they think very deeply about the role that work
plays in their life, the role that work plays in
(05:08):
their identity right and who they are. And I've spoken
with a lot of people who have come out of
it and been like, I'm just not going to put
myself in work like that the other day. And then
there's sort of a companion piece to that. And I
talked did an interview just last week where the guy
I was talking to you said, you know, my biggest
mistake was being loyal to my employer. And there's that too,
and so these two sort of foundational things. One is
(05:30):
sort of the level of their commitment to their work,
and the other is the level of importance work plays
in their identity. Both of those key things about who
people are and the role work plays get rattled very
deeply as a result of getting fired.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
There was an episode pretty early on with a teacher
that really captured that spirit, and she talked about how
we're raised to be quote unquote good workers and very
obedient workers, and we comply with things and we're a
team player if we happily, you know, sacrifice nights and weekends.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
To do more way out of the scope of work.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
And when you put that boundary, there is this element
of how dare you? There's this like heretic thing that
gets put on you and a lot of people, I
think part of their grief was how could they do
this to me? I gave so much, and there's this
betrayal element in their grief from getting fired. And I
think that, you know, what Pam describes is very true
(06:28):
and very president in all of them. There's like this
sense of I gave so much and it made me
realize what the hell am I doing. There's a lot
of people that have said things like, now I have
way better boundaries. They hired me to do this job
until five pm, and I am out the door of
five oh one. I'm not trying to take on extra
emotional labor and wear myself out, because you know, the
(06:50):
job doesn't love you back.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
It can't.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
It can compensate you, it can give you benefits, but
it can't love you back. And I think that comes
through in almost every single episode.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Truly.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
That's such a great I'm wondering whether there's a difference
between how younger people approach the process of being fired
and how older people, who are more experienced than perhaps
have been through different kinds of jobs before. Is there
any sort of difference between the two mechanics.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Then I'm thinking about a young woman I spoke with.
She had just turned thirty, and she had also crossed
this rubicon around her relationship with her employers, and I
was actually quite surprised that she had done so so young, right,
that seemed really young to me. You would think that
the default would be that it's more senior workers who
are like, I'm not doing that, But I think that
(07:33):
that's not true. I think that it actually transcends age.
Once you've had that carpet yanked out from under you
like that, it doesn't matter how old you are, you're
still lying on the ground.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
If there's anything, it's that maybe some younger workers are racing.
Maybe they've been through it, they've seen it already, they've
seen so many rounds of layoud they kind of go
in with maybe a little bit of an attitude like
less permanence in a job. But I think it it's everybody.
There's so many themes across industry and age and all
kinds of demographics that yeah, I mean I love that that,
(08:07):
Like when the rug gets pulled out from under you,
you're still laying on the ground.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
Is that a common reason that was given from your
guests that you've had, Like, is it performance? Is it
cost cutting?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Almost no one. There are a few people, but almost
no one who has fired for performance reasons. Performance is
the least common reason for getting fired.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
It's just the one guy, right, who do you think,
pizza guy, the pizza dude.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah, yeah, the pizza guy. And he was like, yeah,
it's kind of a puncast kid with an attitude.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
And he's like I had a comment, Yeah, but everybody else, No.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
And it's never caused. It's never for performance. No, it's
always something else. It's always personality conflict, it's always restructuring.
Some people literally have no idea. They think they're doing great.
I'm thinking of this woman who was a senior VP
of e commerce, and she was like, my team is great.
(09:02):
They loved me. We were meeting our metrics. You know,
I streamlined all these processes. I came to work one
day they told me to clean out my desk. It's
always something else. The opacity of it to the worker
is really quite striking. They don't know.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
The reason they were given was cost cutting, not for
prommance related but in hindsight, indigitally while talking to you,
they're like, oh, yeah, you know what, I didn't really
put in my hundred percent. Maybe the cost cutting was
the reason they gave me, but it was really this.
I'm curious was that kind of a realization they had
after the pack.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Pam always asks them after they tell the story of
what happened. She always says, Okay, what do you think
really happened? And it is almost always unclear to them.
They always feel like I was kind of lied to
I was never really given the real reason, even people
that were like, yeah, I guess the company was going
through a lot of changes. It almost always in that
second question kind of comes out to be some form
(09:55):
of not even necessarily a personality conflict, just as much
as like that guy didn't like me, like I wasn't
a good fit for his vision, or he didn't like me,
or there's some kind of like, oh, this person needed
to kind of cover their button. I was the scapegoat.
We never hear yeah, in hindsight, I wasn't doing the job.
It was always I really don't know, But if I
(10:15):
had to guess, I think they just didn't like me.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
I think they just didn't want me, right.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
I feel bad for them because there's there is no closure,
because it's so so vague. And what else strikes me
about that moment in the conversation is that even then,
even when they've got some distance and they're able to
talk about it, sometimes we still hear people kind of
making not quite excuses for the employer, but like, well,
I guess it's fair. It was cost like very few
(10:40):
people are like to help with them. They lied to
me and they were not clear with very few people
just draw a line and they can get mad, but
they will still take some of it like, well, I
guess I wasn't doing. You know, it's fascinating to me
just how deep that shame goes.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I think it really speaks to what I was talking
about earlier, which is the depth that you're or day
job impacts your identity. And so when these people have
their day jobs taken away from them, they're being punched
in the identity, right, and that's where it hurts. It
hurts in their identity. They're so identifying with their jobs
that when they're told that they're not good enough to
(11:16):
stay in that role, even if it's not performance based,
like it's not we're not getting the value we want
out of you as a profit driven entity. Right. Good
Enough can mean a bunch of different things, but the
end result is that you get your job taken away
from you, and you have this piece of your identity
stripped away, and people end up really personalizing that.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Why do you think that is? Why do people associate
their self worth to their jobs?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
We spend most of our time working, most of our
working hours are spent doing that, So there's this default
notion that this is how we spend our time, and
so we are how we spend our time. There's that
just by default, it is what we do. I just
had a conversation with a guy who said he hates
it when people ask him what he does when they
meet him. He's like, this is the least interesting thing
about me. But we default as a society also, So
(12:06):
I think both of those things really feed into whether
or not we want to identify ourselves as work. We're
being pushed into these boxes by the world around us.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
And I think so much of our economic framework frames
it that way for us that we have to earn
our rest, not just get to rest because we're humans
and we need it.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
We have to. We're most valuable when we're very productive.
You know.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
I think that it's such a pervasive narrative that it's
hard not to internalize it. We can say, oh, yeah, sure, no,
I know I'm a valuable human being just by virtue
of being a human being. But you know, you might
still make comments or speak to yourself like, man, I've
been a bum today. I haven't done enough, I haven't
done anything. I need to be productive. I feel like
a bum.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
You know.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
I think it's just it's we have internalized that economic
system very deeply. It's one of the first things you
ask people, so what do you do?
Speaker 5 (12:53):
Where do you work?
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Right, because we want to categorize people with that in
that way of how do you spend your time? And
therefore I can believe a thing about you or understand
a thing about you better.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
In some ways, it's almost like society is evolving more
in that direction with hustle culture, and you know, the
five to nine after the nine to five, it's almost
like we're getting more and deeper into the idea of
like what do you do and what are you doing
after the thing that you already do nine to five?
Like what is your your side gig? Like you're defining
yourself more and more by productivity rather than your identity.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
And isn't it interesting that it used to be that
if you had to get a second job, there was
almost a little bit of not quite shame, but something
adjacent to shame, like, oh gosh, things are going bad
in my household.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I had to get a second job. And now it's like,
what are your side hustles?
Speaker 4 (13:39):
What are your You know, I have hobbies that I
make a point not to monetize and people are always going, oh,
you should sell that on nantsy, you should do this,
and I'm like, I don't want to. I just want
to do this thing for joy. Let some things just
be joy.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I'm wondering from the management side, is there something that
management could do more effectively when they do have to
make that hobble decision.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Talked with Rebecca Weaver and she's an HR consultant. She
talks in great detail about this and about how the
organization that is designed to help the worker is also
the organization that's designed to protect management. She articulated that, so, well,
like we need HR for workers and we need whatever
management needs, they should be two completely separate organizations. The
(14:23):
fact that they're not makes it really difficult for workers
to come out ahead because the company is always going
to come first. And you know, people get twitchy about
like HR is not your friend. Don't be mad about it,
but HR is not your friend. HR is prioritizing the
company over you every single time. It's literally their job.
And so that is like the overarching thing that I
(14:43):
think companies could do is they could have internal advocates
for their employees if they genuinely want their employees to
feel protected, safe, valued, and to have a place to
go when they're having issues. That organization needs to be
completely separate from the one that protects.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Managed meant in addition to all of that, I think
a theme that's come up a lot is how cold
the person doing the firing has been, even when it's
someone who you felt like you had a good rapport
with that they're you know, they've been coached by HR
because HR is ultimately there to make sure the company
does not get sued. A lot of people kind of
talked about this, like, oh, I thought I had this
great relationship with my boss, and suddenly they just repeated
(15:21):
one line over and over over and over and ty
just left. Often sometimes that person was stunned too and
didn't really know what to do. So I think if
you do have to fire somebody, I think you should
be trained a little bit.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
I think some people are just kind of throned to
do that. But also I just think there can be
a lot more human way to do it. And even
as litigious as things did there, there's got to be
a more human way to do it. The other thing
is part of having that work or advocate would help
people better understand the rights that they have in that moment.
There's a lot of people that have mentioned and I
was handed these papers to sign and I didn't know what
(15:53):
to do, and I to sign them, and you know,
the HR professional and we had an attorney on all
of them, are like, do not sign anything by law,
you have time to think about it. And I think
if it was more present in the room that we
all agree the rules of engagement here and we know
your rights as a worker, and we know you know,
we have to do this in a way that is
legally sound, but also with the dignity of everybody intact.
(16:16):
I think if that was named a little more transparently,
that might just kind of help that unpleasant situation go
a little bit better when it has to be there.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
Can you go back for a minute, amy you've mentioned
those signing papers and they have time, what was it
in reference.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
To it, separation papers, severance packages, all of that stuff,
depending on your work relationship. You don't have to sign
that thing in the moment. You are legally entitled to
a certain amount of time. And we have any number
of people who have said they brought me in the office,
they they told me to sign these papers. They told
me I wouldn't get severance if I didn't sign the papers.
I was completely stunned. I signed the papers and I
went to cry in my car. Thematically, this has happened
(16:51):
more than once. It is illegal in the United States
to badger your employee into signing the papers like that.
It's not legal. I'm not a lawyer, but the one
piece of advice that the employment lawyer that we spoke with,
he was like, don't sign them. Ask them how long
you have to read these You shouldn't have to sign
them in the moment. You're stunned, you're shocked, you're like reeling.
(17:12):
Take them home. An ethical employer will tell you we
are giving you these papers, you have seven days to
get back to us. Here's your contact if you have
any questions. So that's just straight up ethical behavior from
your employee. And we have also heard numerous stories of
somebody had this paper, slid across the desk and told
them to sign and then to get their things and
(17:33):
leave the building. They were not informed that they had
the right to review the content of those papers. I'm
going to say this again, not a lawyer, so I
would consult with an employment lawyer, or consult with somebody
who's familiar with the laws for your state or your
region wherever you're listening from. This is going to vary,
but pretty consistently people are like, now, don't sign now,
do not sign the papers in that moment, take them home,
(17:55):
say you'll review them. That's it done.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
And I assume a lot of employment lawyer offer a
free consultation for that very purpose. It's a great point
about calling someone with legal expertise about your severance packages
and all those kind of things that you're owed after
you get fired. I was thinking more about the long
term for the person that's been fired. Is there a
trait that you notice among people that have gone on
to greatest success after their original firing? Is that coming?
Speaker 5 (18:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I talked to a woman last week and she told
me that she fought the universe for years before she
embraced her new path. For years she was doing the job,
but she was like, this is temporary. I'm going to
get back to that thing I was doing before. So
she really was like swimming upstream the whole way. She
said it took us four or five years before she
(18:41):
accepted that actually, no she was on the right course now,
So I think it just varies from person to person.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
I have noticed, though, some of the conversations when people
share in hindsight things that they accepted as normal at
the time when they're recounting them to us, are so
hysterically funny to them, and they're like, I took a
giant iMac computer on the bus both directions every day
because they would not give me equipment, And why did
(19:08):
I agree to that? My wife said that was absolutely nuts,
But at the time I just went with it because
it was kind of this like boiling frog thing, you know.
They just kind of kept saying yes. And there's there
was somebody who was like a personal assistant to a
very wealthy person who had all these very outlandish requests
and some bad behavior, and she kind of later was
(19:28):
able to go like, who speaks to someone that way?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Who acts like that? Right?
Speaker 4 (19:32):
So I do think there's the folks that have landed
in a place where there's enough distance, not ussuarly time,
but distance where they can really laugh about some of
just the things that were ridiculous. The guy that took
the iMac on a bus. He also said at one
point the boss was like throwing things in the office.
His son was handing him things like staplers, and he
was whipping them around the office. And he was like,
(19:53):
even as I'm saying that, that sounds so great, you know,
And he was able to reflect on, like, why did
I not.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Just get up right there at that moment?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
It was so crazy.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
I would imagine for the most part, it's a combination
of I need this paycheck, but also I don't even
know how to react to something like that. There's no
corollary in human life where you're just sort of stuck
in a place and you can't leave because you're paid
to be there and someone's throwing stationary around. There's just
no other well, unless you have kids, in which case maybe, but.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Right, maybe, right, you have an angry toddler.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Otherwise no, yeah, yeah, the angry toddler analogy is actually
a really good one.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And the angry toddler is the person who signs your
checks and right, and so that's a weird power dynamic
to be stuck in right, and if you, I don't know,
put the angry toddler and time out, you're being insubordinate,
You're not respecting their authority. They're gonna throw a tantrum.
I mean, we could just run this metaphor to.
Speaker 6 (20:45):
The ground, right, but it's not a bad metaphor. And
you think, like why am I putting up with angry toddlers?
Why is my boss an angry toddler? Like what is
going on that this is acceptable behavior? And how is
it that I'm the one that's getting fired and not
the angry toddler.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
We had a mental health professional on and he really
dug in on it is a trauma to get fired,
and you should give yourself that space to treat it
as such and give yourself time to recover from it.
But part of that is when you hear these stories
of being treated so poorly in ways that are humiliating
or just degrading or whatever, there's that trauma too, right.
(21:24):
So there's just the trauma of suddenly you have no
agency and no choice in the matter. You no longer
do this thing that you perhaps gave a lot to.
So there's that trauma, But also there's this other layer
of embarrassment of why did I consent to bring a
computer every day that was very inconvenient and hard for me?
Why did I sit there while someone through staplers, why
(21:46):
did I let this person speak to me? And also
being traumatized by that person speaking to you and screaming
at you and doing all these things. So there is
some like layered trauma to it that I think we
tend to dismiss a little bit.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's just a job.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
You'll find it another one.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
But no, especially when you're that connected to it as
an identity point, it is a trauma.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
And I liked that he named that.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
I liked that conversation a lot, and that he really
let it be there and let yourself grieve the process, like,
let it be there and let yourself settle through both
mentally and emotionally, but also somatically, like let your body
adjust to the trauma of that.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
And to tie back to what you were asking about,
the characteristic of people who recover more quickly from this,
And maybe that's the key, right, Maybe it's the people
who acknowledge that this was a traumatic situation and I
need to invest in recovering from this personal injury, right,
Like like if you break your arm, you're going to
get the cast and you're going to give it however
(22:42):
long it takes to heal whatever, and you're not going
to be embarrassed about it. You're gonna be like, no,
I fell and broke my arm. It's fine. But if
you have this emotional injury or this mental injury or
any we have a whole other layer of shame and
embarrassment around that stuff. And maybe the recovery comes faster
to people who allow themselves to heal that part of
the process. I'm speculating, but I bet that if we
(23:02):
went back and sort of listened through it, we'd be like,
this is a person who invested in like really thinking
about what the hell happened and what I'm going to
do next time, and really like figured it out. Whereas like,
if I think about this woman who I talked to
you last week, it was just fought it the whole time.
She really didn't want to give into it, right, She
really didn't want to give into it. She's very candid
about it now, but she also like it took her years,
(23:24):
and it might be because she wasn't willing to accept
the fact that these people really insulted me. And so
being really candid with yourself about how you felt about
what you went through, maybe that's the Maybe that's the key.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
So from what instant the majority of them were taking
by surprise. Right of the minority that did not, is
it safe to say that they were mentally prepared or
were they resilient enough to not be affected by it?
You either accept how who it is, or you try
to fight something that you cannot, that cannot be thought,
which adds to their anxiety and not ideal mental health.
(23:58):
And there's some people who are like, well, it is
what this is, what's the next step for me? Kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I'm thinking about the tech workers we've had that were
sort of swept up in the layoffs, right and who
are like, yes, it happens all the time in this industry.
I feel like those folks tend to be weirdly split,
like they sort of knew that this was always possible,
but they didn't necessarily see it coming to them. They
weren't so surprised that it's happening. They're more surprised that
(24:24):
it's happening to them specifically, it's the personalization of it
that they're surprised by.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
The reason I was asking was to see, you know,
how many people were not as affected by as the
others who wouldn't see it coming. Does it have any
relation to who are successful after this happened, like starting
their own business. Is it people who were motivated by
the firing to start there and be like, let me
show them that I can succeed it kind of mentality,
(24:51):
or people like, hey, I knew it was going to happen,
this was my plan, be anyways kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, you know, I'm thinking about the video editor Quincy
who went off and started new business with his partner
when he was done, and he was he sort of
took it as a message like I always wanted to
do this, and so now I'm taking the opportunity. And
I think we had a handful of people are like
I always wanted to do this anyway, I was a
little bit off track, But I think it again sort
of ties back to whether or not they gave themselves
(25:16):
the time to be introspective about what happened and what
they really wanted to do next, as opposed to people
who were pressured. There's also a surprise surprise at economic
level to this too, Right, So, say you're some senior
tech person and you're pulling in a six figure salary.
I talked to a guy who was a company founder
very senior. He was fired from the board of his
(25:36):
own company. He was very emotionally traumatized by the process. Financially,
he was, you know, like he's fine. So there's that
aspect of it too. I'm thinking of another person. I
talked to, this young woman who was thirty, you know,
almost like I'm thirty. I just bought a house. What
am I supposed to do?
Speaker 5 (25:52):
Right?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
So there's there are a bunch of factors, And I
think that the economic factor is also very very important
to consider. Do you have a partner at home as
a job start with that? Are your health benefits coming
from somewhere else? Do you have kids that are on
the insurance policy you've got from your employer. Like, there's
a million factors that can determine can I take the
risk of going to do some big new thing or
(26:15):
is my family, my household reliant on that paycheck and
I'm just going to have to do what's next just
to keep food in the fridge because I got kids
that their feet keep growing. Whatever.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I'm just wondering also now about the next day after
they've been fired. Now is the self help toolkit? Is
the tools that you've learned about during this process that
other people can use as they're going through websites, apps,
things that you would recommend people that have just been
fired used.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I haven't found anything that really stands in but I
will say that we have received excellent advice. And I
want to just point people to Canned, you know, and say, like, Okay,
you're done crying, you should go listen to some episodes
of Canned, because you're going to find out that you're
not alone. That's the That's almost the first thing I
want to tell people. And I also want to tell
them to talk to me for two reasons. Partly because
(27:05):
I want their story. I selfishly want their story, but
partly because I have found that running this sort of
confessional for these stories, people are so unburdened. They're carrying
around this heavy story, and they should If they don't
want to tell it to me, they should find someone
to talk to. Get your best friend, get your therapist,
(27:27):
call your mom. People are seriously burdened by these stories
because they are so ashamed of losing their job, because
their identity has been hit so hard that I want
to tell them to like listen to these other people
telling their stories and to find somebody to tell them
to tell their own story too, because it's a lot
to carry around and eight ninety nine percent of the
(27:50):
time it's not your fault, right, And so you're carrying
around this heavy thing, it's not your fault, and by
talking through it, you sort of come to this realization
and just that alone in day two will lift the burd.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
I'm really struck by how many people say in the
course of the interview, wow, I've never really told anyone
that story. In particular, I'm thinking of a member of
the military, and it went very badly for him. That
is a heartbreaking story. You hear emotion in his voice
and he's like, wow, I've never really shared that whole story.
That was a lot, and it was very liberating for him.
I think there is absolutely like a lifting and you
(28:24):
can hear it through the course of the conversation. There's
a lot of detail. I'm struck by the incredible imprint
that the moment makes on people. There's a guy that
is talking about something that happened decades ago. He still
remembers the woman's haircut and the stuff in her office,
and he mentions that. So there's this more serious part
of it. And then on the other side, the back
(28:46):
half of the interview. There's always this. You hear the
relief in their voice so often you hear it by
the end of the conversation. But Pam usually closes by saying,
what advice would you have for someone who just got fired?
And you hear them step into the I mean I
almost want to say higher mind, like higher self. Way
to advise people and talk about what they would say.
(29:06):
And you can tell with some of them they're speaking
to their previous self. They're talking to the version of
themselves who got fired, and it's really touching a lot,
and the themes are there. It's always like, give yourself
a minute, even if you got to go back to
work for economic reasons, like give yourself a second. Just
take a breath, call a person, sit quietly, be in it,
don't avoid it, be in it and look for support
(29:29):
because people, you know, it's always I sat in the
car and cried and called my partner. I actually I
got someone to come get me because I didn't think
I could drive, or I didn't want to be on
the bus or whatever. It's always like, give yourself that minute,
no matter how small. And I think that it's so powerful.
But to Pam's point that unburdening is powerful, you can
hear people talk about it, and to me, I can
(29:51):
tell how emotionally charged it is because the way their
voice modulates through the course of the conversation, and because
of the amount of recall that they have over the
tiniest little details that like, I don't remember what I
had for breakfast yesterday, but here's somebody thinking decades ago,
this woman had these stupid fake flowers on her desk
and I was so mad and just staring at them
and trying not to cry. Like people focus on the
funniest details, and that speaks to how emotionally charged that
(30:13):
moment is.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
You had talked about the opacity of being fired, but
you're giving people back control over the own narrative of
how they were fired. You're almost giving them back this
sort of this internal voice that they've had in their head.
You're allowing them that time to sort of speak about
the process itself, and that has got to be such
a as you said, non burdening and a sort of
a controlling factor too.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I'm endlessly moved by these conversations and endlessly touched that
a lot of these people are complete strangers. They're randos
from the internet, right, Like, I don't know who they are,
and they're they're sharing these deeply personal stories with me.
It's really very touching. You know. I hate it when
people say they're honored, because like, what is that? But
it definitely feels I'm honored by the fact that they've
(30:57):
decided they're going to trust me enough to tell me
this story and they are dying to put it down,
and they just don't have a place. They don't have
a place, you know. I talk to all these people
and I just think, like, why did you hold onto
this for so long? Right, Like it's not that big
of a deal. And you know, if I think in
a sort of long term, like what I would like
(31:17):
to get out of doing this project is I would
like to not be such a big deal. Like I
would not like to be the only person people are
talking to you about getting fired, right, Like I shouldn't
be the first person to start a podcast about this.
There should be dozens of them. But it definitely feels
like we're the only ones who are zeroed in on
this very specific human experience.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
So now we've sort of articulated the journey that people
go through. What can the individual listen to take from these.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I want to start with nine times out of ten,
it's not your fault. Folks really need to embrace that
there's something else going on. It is not you. You
did a great job. I would lead with.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
That, And I think the second activity right behind that
is to assess the wins that you did get at
that job and the strength that you brought to it.
That just because it ended doesn't mean it was a
failure that you. For whatever time you were in that role,
you were probably thriving and getting fired was not your fault.
But also you did some cool things while you were there,
(32:12):
and you learned things, and you're taking that. Nobody can
take that from you. You're taking that with you too
whatever you do next. And I think the people that
have said, well maybe now is a moment to make
a shift, doing a reassessment is an important thing in
that moment. But almost every person we talked to says,
give yourself a minute and really process it for what
it is and not try to move through it because
(32:35):
of shame or grief or whatever. Like, be in the
shame and grief and experience them and sit in them
and experience them. It sucks to sit in your feelings
and experience them and just be in them because you
want them to go away. But the only way out
is through really with something like that.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I want to add that a lot of this stuff
isn't my advice. This is not so much Amy's advice.
This is things that people have told us. This is
stuff that we've gathered over the course of talking to people,
and we're just passing on. Their advice is to talk
to your people, hit your network, and hit it hard
and shamelessly. And I mean that in the true definition
of that without shame. You should not be ashamed that
(33:10):
you were fired. And tell all your people that you
are looking for work. They want to help you. They're
dying to help you get back on your feet, they
are dying to help you find a new gig, and
they think you're awesome. So take advantage of that and
let them, let them.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
Help you, and set boundaries in your next job, and
be really clear about where your boundary is so that
if that one goes belly up, that you don't have
that same grief that you've gone in a little more
protected and not quite as vulnerable to that kind of
new feeling. Learn what is and is not okay with
you to do for a job. If there is an
extra you're willing to give, know what that is and
(33:47):
cut it off and just be there for what you're
hired to do. But also invest in your life outside
of work.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
It's like this chapter off for your life and it
not your life. Just one chapter, new chapter opens up exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
There are thirty two episodes up and in almost every
one of them there is an excellent piece of advice.
I think those are two. Those are that's four really
good ones.
Speaker 5 (34:10):
So I can we find you, Pam and Amy?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
So the best place to find us is on our
home your l which is canned podcast dot com, and
that's where you can find how to get in touch
with us if you want to tell your story. That's
how you can access all of the archives. There's some
additional information about my work there, there's information about Amy's
work there. But the podcast is available pretty much wherever
(34:34):
you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Fantastic. Thank you so much, Amy for your time. We
really appreciate you spending this time with us, and thank
you again for letting people tell the story. I think
you doing such an important thing. Thank you
We'd like to start today's podcast with a brief announcement.
We are delighted to share with you that the Mental
Wealth Podcast has partnered with the American Red Cross. As
part of our partnership, fifty percent of all proceeds from
products purchased through our online store will now go to
support the urgent needs of the American Red Cross. We
(00:22):
want to thank everyone at the American Red Cross for
their instrumental work. Please visit support dot mentalwealthpod dot com
to learn more about our partnership and thank you everybody
for your support. What if getting fired wasn't the end
(00:43):
of something, but the start of finally figuring out who
you are? We sat down with Pam and Amy from
the Canned Podcast to unpack the emotional rollercoaster that comes
with losing your job. We talk about identity, shame, resilience,
and how to navigate the mental fallout. If you've ever
been let go and wondered what comes next, this conversation
(01:05):
is for you. Hope you enjoy it. For add three
episodes of the Mental Wealth podcasts, head to mentalwealthpod dot
gumroad dot com. Pam and Amy, you could like to
introduce the can podcast to our audience.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Sure. My name is Pam Mandela. I'm the host of
Canned Conversations About Getting Fired, which is exactly like it
sounds like from the title. It's Conversations about getting fired.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
And I'm Amy Gooth and I produce the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
When I heard about the idea for the CAN podcast,
I was first of all very jealous because I was like,
that's such a great idea for a podcast. I was like,
that's brilliant. I love it. It's such a universal experience
and everyone has that story of a bad boss or
just that experience of going through the firing process. I'd
love to find out what the origin story is for
the podcast, if you could tell me.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
It is the most obvious thing, which is that I
got fired. So I sat on my couch for about
two days and I thought, something is funny about this experience.
Something doesn't sit right with me. And I got on
Slack with Amy and said, Amy, I want to do
this thing.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
And I was very enthusiastic about the idea right away.
I loved it because immediately when you hear it, you go,
oh my gosh, that's such a good idea.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Why does this not exist already?
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Pam had shared with me the whole process leading up
to her getting fired, and so I knew kind of
the ins and outs of it. And immediately when she
put the call out for the original, like the initial
group of people, it just resonated with people in that
same way. People understood it immediately of like, yeah, wait,
why don't we talk about this? I mean immediately it
just kind of clicked. And every time I tell somebody
(02:32):
about the podcast, they're like, oh my god, that's such
a good idea. Why does that exist?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Is there a particular guest you've had recently that you
can talk about that resonates in most with you? Right now?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
The thing that I am struck with is not that
there is one particular guest that stands out, but that
every single person that we've spoken with has some kind
of remarkable insight, They have some kind of remarkable gift.
When they're given the opportunity to talk about the experience openly,
they give us so much to sort of process and
(03:03):
different ways to think.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
About what it means to get fired. Yeah, I would
agree with that.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
No matter what industry somebody is talking about that they
were in prior to getting fired, there are just themes
that go across it. There's dynamics between boss and worker
that just echo out throughout all of capitalism and affect everybody.
There are themes that ripple out in how you never
get the satisfaction or the dignity of the real truth.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
There's always just some kind of.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Like fabricated quick story. There's always some kind of coldness
from the person doing the firing. There's always this embarrassment
and there's this kind of shame attached to it. And
then there's always this epiphany of like, well, wait a minute,
I know no, this is all this is not truth
about me. And it's almost like when your truth gets
(03:53):
rattled that hard, it kind of forces your inner self
to step forward in a more powerful way.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
And I really love the guests that.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Have done something really powerful after getting fired, that started
a business or completely changed and are just so happy.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
They don't even know what to.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Do with themselves now, because that was so rattled within
them that they came out of it at the end,
they it became a victory for them, you know, they
were able to reclaim something about themselves on the other
side of it.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
That's such a good point is that people don't often
go through the process of being fired, and they go
through the emotions of it, but then they don't they're
not maybe ready to think about the next step without
what that process looks like. And then afterwards, on reflection,
it almost becomes a foundation for growth in the future.
Is there a surprising element perhaps that you've learned about
the process of being fired by speaking to so many
(04:45):
people about that.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That's a really good question. I'm surprised every time somebody
tells me a story. None of these stories are boring. Ever,
A thing that's surprising for me from a more philosophical
point of view is that everybody seems to cross transition
where they think very deeply about the role that work
plays in their life, the role that work plays in
(05:08):
their identity right and who they are. And I've spoken
with a lot of people who have come out of
it and been like, I'm just not going to put
myself in work like that the other day. And then
there's sort of a companion piece to that. And I
talked did an interview just last week where the guy
I was talking to you said, you know, my biggest
mistake was being loyal to my employer. And there's that too,
and so these two sort of foundational things. One is
(05:30):
sort of the level of their commitment to their work,
and the other is the level of importance work plays
in their identity. Both of those key things about who
people are and the role work plays get rattled very
deeply as a result of getting fired.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
There was an episode pretty early on with a teacher
that really captured that spirit, and she talked about how
we're raised to be quote unquote good workers and very
obedient workers, and we comply with things and we're a
team player if we happily, you know, sacrifice nights and weekends.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
To do more way out of the scope of work.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
And when you put that boundary, there is this element
of how dare you? There's this like heretic thing that
gets put on you and a lot of people, I
think part of their grief was how could they do
this to me? I gave so much, and there's this
betrayal element in their grief from getting fired. And I
think that, you know, what Pam describes is very true
(06:28):
and very president in all of them. There's like this
sense of I gave so much and it made me
realize what the hell am I doing. There's a lot
of people that have said things like, now I have
way better boundaries. They hired me to do this job
until five pm, and I am out the door of
five oh one. I'm not trying to take on extra
emotional labor and wear myself out, because you know, the
(06:50):
job doesn't love you back.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
It can't.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
It can compensate you, it can give you benefits, but
it can't love you back. And I think that comes
through in almost every single episode.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Truly.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
That's such a great I'm wondering whether there's a difference
between how younger people approach the process of being fired
and how older people, who are more experienced than perhaps
have been through different kinds of jobs before. Is there
any sort of difference between the two mechanics.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Then I'm thinking about a young woman I spoke with.
She had just turned thirty, and she had also crossed
this rubicon around her relationship with her employers, and I
was actually quite surprised that she had done so so young, right,
that seemed really young to me. You would think that
the default would be that it's more senior workers who
are like, I'm not doing that, But I think that
(07:33):
that's not true. I think that it actually transcends age.
Once you've had that carpet yanked out from under you
like that, it doesn't matter how old you are, you're
still lying on the ground.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
If there's anything, it's that maybe some younger workers are racing.
Maybe they've been through it, they've seen it already, they've
seen so many rounds of layoud they kind of go
in with maybe a little bit of an attitude like
less permanence in a job. But I think it it's everybody.
There's so many themes across industry and age and all
kinds of demographics that yeah, I mean I love that that,
(08:07):
Like when the rug gets pulled out from under you,
you're still laying on the ground.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
Is that a common reason that was given from your
guests that you've had, Like, is it performance? Is it
cost cutting?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Almost no one. There are a few people, but almost
no one who has fired for performance reasons. Performance is
the least common reason for getting fired.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
It's just the one guy, right, who do you think,
pizza guy, the pizza dude.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah, yeah, the pizza guy. And he was like, yeah,
it's kind of a puncast kid with an attitude.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
And he's like I had a comment, Yeah, but everybody else, No.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
And it's never caused. It's never for performance. No, it's
always something else. It's always personality conflict, it's always restructuring.
Some people literally have no idea. They think they're doing great.
I'm thinking of this woman who was a senior VP
of e commerce, and she was like, my team is great.
(09:02):
They loved me. We were meeting our metrics. You know,
I streamlined all these processes. I came to work one
day they told me to clean out my desk. It's
always something else. The opacity of it to the worker
is really quite striking. They don't know.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
The reason they were given was cost cutting, not for
prommance related but in hindsight, indigitally while talking to you,
they're like, oh, yeah, you know what, I didn't really
put in my hundred percent. Maybe the cost cutting was
the reason they gave me, but it was really this.
I'm curious was that kind of a realization they had
after the pack.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Pam always asks them after they tell the story of
what happened. She always says, Okay, what do you think
really happened? And it is almost always unclear to them.
They always feel like I was kind of lied to
I was never really given the real reason, even people
that were like, yeah, I guess the company was going
through a lot of changes. It almost always in that
second question kind of comes out to be some form
(09:55):
of not even necessarily a personality conflict, just as much
as like that guy didn't like me, like I wasn't
a good fit for his vision, or he didn't like me,
or there's some kind of like, oh, this person needed
to kind of cover their button. I was the scapegoat.
We never hear yeah, in hindsight, I wasn't doing the job.
It was always I really don't know, But if I
(10:15):
had to guess, I think they just didn't like me.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
I think they just didn't want me, right.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
I feel bad for them because there's there is no closure,
because it's so so vague. And what else strikes me
about that moment in the conversation is that even then,
even when they've got some distance and they're able to
talk about it, sometimes we still hear people kind of
making not quite excuses for the employer, but like, well,
I guess it's fair. It was cost like very few
(10:40):
people are like to help with them. They lied to
me and they were not clear with very few people
just draw a line and they can get mad, but
they will still take some of it like, well, I
guess I wasn't doing. You know, it's fascinating to me
just how deep that shame goes.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I think it really speaks to what I was talking
about earlier, which is the depth that you're or day
job impacts your identity. And so when these people have
their day jobs taken away from them, they're being punched
in the identity, right, and that's where it hurts. It
hurts in their identity. They're so identifying with their jobs
that when they're told that they're not good enough to
(11:16):
stay in that role, even if it's not performance based,
like it's not we're not getting the value we want
out of you as a profit driven entity. Right. Good
Enough can mean a bunch of different things, but the
end result is that you get your job taken away
from you, and you have this piece of your identity
stripped away, and people end up really personalizing that.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Why do you think that is? Why do people associate
their self worth to their jobs?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
We spend most of our time working, most of our
working hours are spent doing that, So there's this default
notion that this is how we spend our time, and
so we are how we spend our time. There's that
just by default, it is what we do. I just
had a conversation with a guy who said he hates
it when people ask him what he does when they
meet him. He's like, this is the least interesting thing
about me. But we default as a society also, So
(12:06):
I think both of those things really feed into whether
or not we want to identify ourselves as work. We're
being pushed into these boxes by the world around us.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
And I think so much of our economic framework frames
it that way for us that we have to earn
our rest, not just get to rest because we're humans
and we need it.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
We have to. We're most valuable when we're very productive.
You know.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
I think that it's such a pervasive narrative that it's
hard not to internalize it. We can say, oh, yeah, sure, no,
I know I'm a valuable human being just by virtue
of being a human being. But you know, you might
still make comments or speak to yourself like, man, I've
been a bum today. I haven't done enough, I haven't
done anything. I need to be productive. I feel like
a bum.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
You know.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
I think it's just it's we have internalized that economic
system very deeply. It's one of the first things you
ask people, so what do you do?
Speaker 5 (12:53):
Where do you work?
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Right, because we want to categorize people with that in
that way of how do you spend your time? And
therefore I can believe a thing about you or understand
a thing about you better.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
In some ways, it's almost like society is evolving more
in that direction with hustle culture, and you know, the
five to nine after the nine to five, it's almost
like we're getting more and deeper into the idea of
like what do you do and what are you doing
after the thing that you already do nine to five?
Like what is your your side gig? Like you're defining
yourself more and more by productivity rather than your identity.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
And isn't it interesting that it used to be that
if you had to get a second job, there was
almost a little bit of not quite shame, but something
adjacent to shame, like, oh gosh, things are going bad
in my household.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I had to get a second job. And now it's like,
what are your side hustles?
Speaker 4 (13:39):
What are your You know, I have hobbies that I
make a point not to monetize and people are always going, oh,
you should sell that on nantsy, you should do this,
and I'm like, I don't want to. I just want
to do this thing for joy. Let some things just
be joy.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I'm wondering from the management side, is there something that
management could do more effectively when they do have to
make that hobble decision.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Talked with Rebecca Weaver and she's an HR consultant. She
talks in great detail about this and about how the
organization that is designed to help the worker is also
the organization that's designed to protect management. She articulated that, so, well,
like we need HR for workers and we need whatever
management needs, they should be two completely separate organizations. The
(14:23):
fact that they're not makes it really difficult for workers
to come out ahead because the company is always going
to come first. And you know, people get twitchy about
like HR is not your friend. Don't be mad about it,
but HR is not your friend. HR is prioritizing the
company over you every single time. It's literally their job.
And so that is like the overarching thing that I
(14:43):
think companies could do is they could have internal advocates
for their employees if they genuinely want their employees to
feel protected, safe, valued, and to have a place to
go when they're having issues. That organization needs to be
completely separate from the one that protects.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Managed meant in addition to all of that, I think
a theme that's come up a lot is how cold
the person doing the firing has been, even when it's
someone who you felt like you had a good rapport
with that they're you know, they've been coached by HR
because HR is ultimately there to make sure the company
does not get sued. A lot of people kind of
talked about this, like, oh, I thought I had this
great relationship with my boss, and suddenly they just repeated
(15:21):
one line over and over over and over and ty
just left. Often sometimes that person was stunned too and
didn't really know what to do. So I think if
you do have to fire somebody, I think you should
be trained a little bit.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
I think some people are just kind of throned to
do that. But also I just think there can be
a lot more human way to do it. And even
as litigious as things did there, there's got to be
a more human way to do it. The other thing
is part of having that work or advocate would help
people better understand the rights that they have in that moment.
There's a lot of people that have mentioned and I
was handed these papers to sign and I didn't know what
(15:53):
to do, and I to sign them, and you know,
the HR professional and we had an attorney on all
of them, are like, do not sign anything by law,
you have time to think about it. And I think
if it was more present in the room that we
all agree the rules of engagement here and we know
your rights as a worker, and we know you know,
we have to do this in a way that is
legally sound, but also with the dignity of everybody intact.
(16:16):
I think if that was named a little more transparently,
that might just kind of help that unpleasant situation go
a little bit better when it has to be there.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
Can you go back for a minute, amy you've mentioned
those signing papers and they have time, what was it
in reference.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
To it, separation papers, severance packages, all of that stuff,
depending on your work relationship. You don't have to sign
that thing in the moment. You are legally entitled to
a certain amount of time. And we have any number
of people who have said they brought me in the office,
they they told me to sign these papers. They told
me I wouldn't get severance if I didn't sign the papers.
I was completely stunned. I signed the papers and I
went to cry in my car. Thematically, this has happened
(16:51):
more than once. It is illegal in the United States
to badger your employee into signing the papers like that.
It's not legal. I'm not a lawyer, but the one
piece of advice that the employment lawyer that we spoke with,
he was like, don't sign them. Ask them how long
you have to read these You shouldn't have to sign
them in the moment. You're stunned, you're shocked, you're like reeling.
(17:12):
Take them home. An ethical employer will tell you we
are giving you these papers, you have seven days to
get back to us. Here's your contact if you have
any questions. So that's just straight up ethical behavior from
your employee. And we have also heard numerous stories of
somebody had this paper, slid across the desk and told
them to sign and then to get their things and
(17:33):
leave the building. They were not informed that they had
the right to review the content of those papers. I'm
going to say this again, not a lawyer, so I
would consult with an employment lawyer, or consult with somebody
who's familiar with the laws for your state or your
region wherever you're listening from. This is going to vary,
but pretty consistently people are like, now, don't sign now,
do not sign the papers in that moment, take them home,
(17:55):
say you'll review them. That's it done.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
And I assume a lot of employment lawyer offer a
free consultation for that very purpose. It's a great point
about calling someone with legal expertise about your severance packages
and all those kind of things that you're owed after
you get fired. I was thinking more about the long
term for the person that's been fired. Is there a
trait that you notice among people that have gone on
to greatest success after their original firing? Is that coming?
Speaker 5 (18:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I talked to a woman last week and she told
me that she fought the universe for years before she
embraced her new path. For years she was doing the job,
but she was like, this is temporary. I'm going to
get back to that thing I was doing before. So
she really was like swimming upstream the whole way. She
said it took us four or five years before she
(18:41):
accepted that actually, no she was on the right course now,
So I think it just varies from person to person.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
I have noticed, though, some of the conversations when people
share in hindsight things that they accepted as normal at
the time when they're recounting them to us, are so
hysterically funny to them, and they're like, I took a
giant iMac computer on the bus both directions every day
because they would not give me equipment, And why did
(19:08):
I agree to that? My wife said that was absolutely nuts,
But at the time I just went with it because
it was kind of this like boiling frog thing, you know.
They just kind of kept saying yes. And there's there
was somebody who was like a personal assistant to a
very wealthy person who had all these very outlandish requests
and some bad behavior, and she kind of later was
(19:28):
able to go like, who speaks to someone that way?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Who acts like that? Right?
Speaker 4 (19:32):
So I do think there's the folks that have landed
in a place where there's enough distance, not ussuarly time,
but distance where they can really laugh about some of
just the things that were ridiculous. The guy that took
the iMac on a bus. He also said at one
point the boss was like throwing things in the office.
His son was handing him things like staplers, and he
was whipping them around the office. And he was like,
(19:53):
even as I'm saying that, that sounds so great, you know,
And he was able to reflect on, like, why did
I not.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Just get up right there at that moment?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
It was so crazy.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
I would imagine for the most part, it's a combination
of I need this paycheck, but also I don't even
know how to react to something like that. There's no
corollary in human life where you're just sort of stuck
in a place and you can't leave because you're paid
to be there and someone's throwing stationary around. There's just
no other well, unless you have kids, in which case maybe, but.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Right, maybe, right, you have an angry toddler.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Otherwise no, yeah, yeah, the angry toddler analogy is actually
a really good one.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And the angry toddler is the person who signs your
checks and right, and so that's a weird power dynamic
to be stuck in right, and if you, I don't know,
put the angry toddler and time out, you're being insubordinate,
You're not respecting their authority. They're gonna throw a tantrum.
I mean, we could just run this metaphor to.
Speaker 6 (20:45):
The ground, right, but it's not a bad metaphor. And
you think, like why am I putting up with angry toddlers?
Why is my boss an angry toddler? Like what is
going on that this is acceptable behavior? And how is
it that I'm the one that's getting fired and not
the angry toddler.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
We had a mental health professional on and he really
dug in on it is a trauma to get fired,
and you should give yourself that space to treat it
as such and give yourself time to recover from it.
But part of that is when you hear these stories
of being treated so poorly in ways that are humiliating
or just degrading or whatever, there's that trauma too, right.
(21:24):
So there's just the trauma of suddenly you have no
agency and no choice in the matter. You no longer
do this thing that you perhaps gave a lot to.
So there's that trauma, But also there's this other layer
of embarrassment of why did I consent to bring a
computer every day that was very inconvenient and hard for me?
Why did I sit there while someone through staplers, why
(21:46):
did I let this person speak to me? And also
being traumatized by that person speaking to you and screaming
at you and doing all these things. So there is
some like layered trauma to it that I think we
tend to dismiss a little bit.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's just a job.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
You'll find it another one.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
But no, especially when you're that connected to it as
an identity point, it is a trauma.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
And I liked that he named that.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
I liked that conversation a lot, and that he really
let it be there and let yourself grieve the process, like,
let it be there and let yourself settle through both
mentally and emotionally, but also somatically, like let your body
adjust to the trauma of that.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
And to tie back to what you were asking about,
the characteristic of people who recover more quickly from this,
And maybe that's the key, right, Maybe it's the people
who acknowledge that this was a traumatic situation and I
need to invest in recovering from this personal injury, right,
Like like if you break your arm, you're going to
get the cast and you're going to give it however
(22:42):
long it takes to heal whatever, and you're not going
to be embarrassed about it. You're gonna be like, no,
I fell and broke my arm. It's fine. But if
you have this emotional injury or this mental injury or
any we have a whole other layer of shame and
embarrassment around that stuff. And maybe the recovery comes faster
to people who allow themselves to heal that part of
the process. I'm speculating, but I bet that if we
(23:02):
went back and sort of listened through it, we'd be like,
this is a person who invested in like really thinking
about what the hell happened and what I'm going to
do next time, and really like figured it out. Whereas like,
if I think about this woman who I talked to
you last week, it was just fought it the whole time.
She really didn't want to give into it, right, She
really didn't want to give into it. She's very candid
about it now, but she also like it took her years,
(23:24):
and it might be because she wasn't willing to accept
the fact that these people really insulted me. And so
being really candid with yourself about how you felt about
what you went through, maybe that's the Maybe that's the key.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
So from what instant the majority of them were taking
by surprise. Right of the minority that did not, is
it safe to say that they were mentally prepared or
were they resilient enough to not be affected by it?
You either accept how who it is, or you try
to fight something that you cannot, that cannot be thought,
which adds to their anxiety and not ideal mental health.
(23:58):
And there's some people who are like, well, it is
what this is, what's the next step for me? Kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I'm thinking about the tech workers we've had that were
sort of swept up in the layoffs, right and who
are like, yes, it happens all the time in this industry.
I feel like those folks tend to be weirdly split,
like they sort of knew that this was always possible,
but they didn't necessarily see it coming to them. They
weren't so surprised that it's happening. They're more surprised that
(24:24):
it's happening to them specifically, it's the personalization of it
that they're surprised by.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
The reason I was asking was to see, you know,
how many people were not as affected by as the
others who wouldn't see it coming. Does it have any
relation to who are successful after this happened, like starting
their own business. Is it people who were motivated by
the firing to start there and be like, let me
show them that I can succeed it kind of mentality,
(24:51):
or people like, hey, I knew it was going to happen,
this was my plan, be anyways kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, you know, I'm thinking about the video editor Quincy
who went off and started new business with his partner
when he was done, and he was he sort of
took it as a message like I always wanted to
do this, and so now I'm taking the opportunity. And
I think we had a handful of people are like
I always wanted to do this anyway, I was a
little bit off track, But I think it again sort
of ties back to whether or not they gave themselves
(25:16):
the time to be introspective about what happened and what
they really wanted to do next, as opposed to people
who were pressured. There's also a surprise surprise at economic
level to this too, Right, So, say you're some senior
tech person and you're pulling in a six figure salary.
I talked to a guy who was a company founder
very senior. He was fired from the board of his
(25:36):
own company. He was very emotionally traumatized by the process. Financially,
he was, you know, like he's fine. So there's that
aspect of it too. I'm thinking of another person. I
talked to, this young woman who was thirty, you know,
almost like I'm thirty. I just bought a house. What
am I supposed to do?
Speaker 5 (25:52):
Right?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
So there's there are a bunch of factors, And I
think that the economic factor is also very very important
to consider. Do you have a partner at home as
a job start with that? Are your health benefits coming
from somewhere else? Do you have kids that are on
the insurance policy you've got from your employer. Like, there's
a million factors that can determine can I take the
risk of going to do some big new thing or
(26:15):
is my family, my household reliant on that paycheck and
I'm just going to have to do what's next just
to keep food in the fridge because I got kids
that their feet keep growing. Whatever.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I'm just wondering also now about the next day after
they've been fired. Now is the self help toolkit? Is
the tools that you've learned about during this process that
other people can use as they're going through websites, apps,
things that you would recommend people that have just been
fired used.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I haven't found anything that really stands in but I
will say that we have received excellent advice. And I
want to just point people to Canned, you know, and say, like, Okay,
you're done crying, you should go listen to some episodes
of Canned, because you're going to find out that you're
not alone. That's the That's almost the first thing I
want to tell people. And I also want to tell
them to talk to me for two reasons. Partly because
(27:05):
I want their story. I selfishly want their story, but
partly because I have found that running this sort of
confessional for these stories, people are so unburdened. They're carrying
around this heavy story, and they should If they don't
want to tell it to me, they should find someone
to talk to. Get your best friend, get your therapist,
(27:27):
call your mom. People are seriously burdened by these stories
because they are so ashamed of losing their job, because
their identity has been hit so hard that I want
to tell them to like listen to these other people
telling their stories and to find somebody to tell them
to tell their own story too, because it's a lot
to carry around and eight ninety nine percent of the
(27:50):
time it's not your fault, right, And so you're carrying
around this heavy thing, it's not your fault, and by
talking through it, you sort of come to this realization
and just that alone in day two will lift the burd.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
I'm really struck by how many people say in the
course of the interview, wow, I've never really told anyone
that story. In particular, I'm thinking of a member of
the military, and it went very badly for him. That
is a heartbreaking story. You hear emotion in his voice
and he's like, wow, I've never really shared that whole story.
That was a lot, and it was very liberating for him.
I think there is absolutely like a lifting and you
(28:24):
can hear it through the course of the conversation. There's
a lot of detail. I'm struck by the incredible imprint
that the moment makes on people. There's a guy that
is talking about something that happened decades ago. He still
remembers the woman's haircut and the stuff in her office,
and he mentions that. So there's this more serious part
of it. And then on the other side, the back
(28:46):
half of the interview. There's always this. You hear the
relief in their voice so often you hear it by
the end of the conversation. But Pam usually closes by saying,
what advice would you have for someone who just got fired?
And you hear them step into the I mean I
almost want to say higher mind, like higher self. Way
to advise people and talk about what they would say.
(29:06):
And you can tell with some of them they're speaking
to their previous self. They're talking to the version of
themselves who got fired, and it's really touching a lot,
and the themes are there. It's always like, give yourself
a minute, even if you got to go back to
work for economic reasons, like give yourself a second. Just
take a breath, call a person, sit quietly, be in it,
don't avoid it, be in it and look for support
(29:29):
because people, you know, it's always I sat in the
car and cried and called my partner. I actually I
got someone to come get me because I didn't think
I could drive, or I didn't want to be on
the bus or whatever. It's always like, give yourself that minute,
no matter how small. And I think that it's so powerful.
But to Pam's point that unburdening is powerful, you can
hear people talk about it, and to me, I can
(29:51):
tell how emotionally charged it is because the way their
voice modulates through the course of the conversation, and because
of the amount of recall that they have over the
tiniest little details that like, I don't remember what I
had for breakfast yesterday, but here's somebody thinking decades ago,
this woman had these stupid fake flowers on her desk
and I was so mad and just staring at them
and trying not to cry. Like people focus on the
funniest details, and that speaks to how emotionally charged that
(30:13):
moment is.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
You had talked about the opacity of being fired, but
you're giving people back control over the own narrative of
how they were fired. You're almost giving them back this
sort of this internal voice that they've had in their head.
You're allowing them that time to sort of speak about
the process itself, and that has got to be such
a as you said, non burdening and a sort of
a controlling factor too.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I'm endlessly moved by these conversations and endlessly touched that
a lot of these people are complete strangers. They're randos
from the internet, right, Like, I don't know who they are,
and they're they're sharing these deeply personal stories with me.
It's really very touching. You know. I hate it when
people say they're honored, because like, what is that? But
it definitely feels I'm honored by the fact that they've
(30:57):
decided they're going to trust me enough to tell me
this story and they are dying to put it down,
and they just don't have a place. They don't have
a place, you know. I talk to all these people
and I just think, like, why did you hold onto
this for so long? Right, Like it's not that big
of a deal. And you know, if I think in
a sort of long term, like what I would like
(31:17):
to get out of doing this project is I would
like to not be such a big deal. Like I
would not like to be the only person people are
talking to you about getting fired, right, Like I shouldn't
be the first person to start a podcast about this.
There should be dozens of them. But it definitely feels
like we're the only ones who are zeroed in on
this very specific human experience.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
So now we've sort of articulated the journey that people
go through. What can the individual listen to take from these.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I want to start with nine times out of ten,
it's not your fault. Folks really need to embrace that
there's something else going on. It is not you. You
did a great job. I would lead with.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
That, And I think the second activity right behind that
is to assess the wins that you did get at
that job and the strength that you brought to it.
That just because it ended doesn't mean it was a
failure that you. For whatever time you were in that role,
you were probably thriving and getting fired was not your fault.
But also you did some cool things while you were there,
(32:12):
and you learned things, and you're taking that. Nobody can
take that from you. You're taking that with you too
whatever you do next. And I think the people that
have said, well maybe now is a moment to make
a shift, doing a reassessment is an important thing in
that moment. But almost every person we talked to says,
give yourself a minute and really process it for what
it is and not try to move through it because
(32:35):
of shame or grief or whatever. Like, be in the
shame and grief and experience them and sit in them
and experience them. It sucks to sit in your feelings
and experience them and just be in them because you
want them to go away. But the only way out
is through really with something like that.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I want to add that a lot of this stuff
isn't my advice. This is not so much Amy's advice.
This is things that people have told us. This is
stuff that we've gathered over the course of talking to people,
and we're just passing on. Their advice is to talk
to your people, hit your network, and hit it hard
and shamelessly. And I mean that in the true definition
of that without shame. You should not be ashamed that
(33:10):
you were fired. And tell all your people that you
are looking for work. They want to help you. They're
dying to help you get back on your feet, they
are dying to help you find a new gig, and
they think you're awesome. So take advantage of that and
let them, let them.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
Help you, and set boundaries in your next job, and
be really clear about where your boundary is so that
if that one goes belly up, that you don't have
that same grief that you've gone in a little more
protected and not quite as vulnerable to that kind of
new feeling. Learn what is and is not okay with
you to do for a job. If there is an
extra you're willing to give, know what that is and
(33:47):
cut it off and just be there for what you're
hired to do. But also invest in your life outside
of work.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
It's like this chapter off for your life and it
not your life. Just one chapter, new chapter opens up exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
There are thirty two episodes up and in almost every
one of them there is an excellent piece of advice.
I think those are two. Those are that's four really
good ones.
Speaker 5 (34:10):
So I can we find you, Pam and Amy?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
So the best place to find us is on our
home your l which is canned podcast dot com, and
that's where you can find how to get in touch
with us if you want to tell your story. That's
how you can access all of the archives. There's some
additional information about my work there, there's information about Amy's
work there. But the podcast is available pretty much wherever
(34:34):
you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Fantastic. Thank you so much, Amy for your time. We
really appreciate you spending this time with us, and thank
you again for letting people tell the story. I think
you doing such an important thing. Thank you
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