May 24, 2023 • 39 mins
The Kelly Cochran case files arrive, opening a Pandora's Box of depravity. And during an encounter following Jason's death, Kelly shows Hobart police just how calculating and unhinged she truly is.
Next episode: 31 May 2023
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.pactpodcast.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience or to support the show: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Research assistance by Becca Cline.
Music by William Hellfire, Whithe, Sergey Cheremisinov, Lee Rosevere, Radical Face, Ian Alex Mac, Stacxk, and Kevin MacLeod.
Next episode: 31 May 2023
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.pactpodcast.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience or to support the show: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Research assistance by Becca Cline.
Music by William Hellfire, Whithe, Sergey Cheremisinov, Lee Rosevere, Radical Face, Ian Alex Mac, Stacxk, and Kevin MacLeod.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
This is a studio, both andproduction. You know, it's hard to
fight that self preservation though, right, I know that I'm not trying to
play a game with you win orlose. You know that, right?
(00:29):
Do you get that? That's notit, that's not that's not the game.
Okay? So then why why onEarth? Why on Earth sat here
and play the game with me?What else do I have left? I'm
not going anywhere. No, I'mnot going anywhere, and I'm here to
talk to you. Disappointed in me? I'm getting my whole life to this
(00:53):
job. Why can't I have timefor me? That bothers? You don't
have time for you? But wellthat's I'm not saying I'm never going to
do anything again. I'm just notgoing to do it now. You're it.
This is it. You have apassion when you were doing what you're
doing what you're doing now, eventhough I make you fucking nuts. Time
(01:15):
to do that to people, youdon't make me nuts. You frustrate people,
and you use frustration to create confusion, and you try to run people
in different directions so as they don'tlook at the right things. But I
just wouldn't allow you to run mein a lot of fucking bullshit directions.
(01:38):
So you either have you either haverespect for what's occurred between me and you
and you choose to talk to me, or you set here and you can
play your game. Dear Kelly,I'm a podcast producer and currently working on
(02:00):
a season of my show about you. I watched a four part series about
you on Investigation Discovery and was absolutelyfascinated by it. From your relationship with
Jason, to your studying of psychologyand forensics, your complicated feelings for Chris
Regan, and your incredible work ethic. There are a lot of really interesting
(02:21):
dynamics to your life that make fora very compelling story. And obviously I
have a lot of questions. Here'sa little bit about me, so it
doesn't feel like you're talking into thevoid. I grew up in California,
where I studied biology and psychology.However, the majority of my career has
(02:42):
been in writing in various forms,and now I produce a true crime podcast.
My previous two seasons were on serialkiller Israel Keys, and the objective
of my show has always been holisticstorytelling, not just crime victim killer.
I want to get to the rootof who the people involved are, what
(03:05):
drives them, how the crime hasimpacted them, and just generally understand how
someone becomes a killer. I guesswhat I'd love from any exchanges we may
have is to first and foremost getto know you and get a whole picture
of your life. But I'll alsobe looking into possible victims of yours and
or Jason's, including Andrew and theother Jason from Minnesota, and trying to
(03:30):
parse reality from lies. I thinkeven you can admit you've done some embellishing
in the past. I'm also awarethat you're trying to get relocated to California,
and I'm curious, why, whyCalifornia? What's there for you?
Anyhow, I'm hoping you'll be interestedin sharing your story with me and corresponding
(03:53):
more. All my best, Josh. Less than a week after I sent
that letter, I finally received thecase files from Iron River and the Michigan
State Police, an entire terabyte worthof files, including over a hundred hours
(04:15):
of interviews and more than six thousandpages of documentation. And those interviews and
documents which shed so much light onwho Kelly is, what she's capable of,
and which confessions investigators did and didn'ttake seriously. They would also expose
some repeating patterns surrounding the number ofvictims Kelly claimed she and Jason separately were
(04:40):
responsible for, a number will divedeep into in a future episode. What
stands out most from the files,though, is just how immersed in the
case Hobert Detective Jeremy Ogten was,particularly in the months following Jason's murder,
when he and Kelly were talking almostdaily. Their conversations are uncomfortable. Often
(05:04):
Kelly appears to be flirting with Jeremy, and Jeremy goes back and forth between
playing bad cop and good cop withher. They seem to have a strong
rapport and some sense of mutual respect, and they speak in metaphor a lot.
They very frequently refer to Kelly asa unicorn. They compare Kelly's crimes
(05:27):
to a magician pulling various items fromhis hat, and Kelly remains calm,
coy, and flirtatious throughout. Thereare times where I genuinely cannot tell if
her adoration for Jeremy is real oran act. When I cannot tell if
Jeremy's adoration for her is real oran act, so I went and saw
(05:50):
mom and dad. Yes, Iwas going to actually ask you about that.
I brought your stuff. No,but I was going to ask you
that. What could you possibly sayto my family to him? I'm to
ask me if I ever loved them. I didn't say anything to your family
where they would make them ask youif you ever loved them? Should I
answer to that? I don't knowwhat's the real answer to that. What
(06:12):
is it? I don't know.I don't answer your questions for you.
I haven't yet have I I don'tknow if I answered her. You didn't.
You didn't. Are you listening tothe car? So then I guess
(06:32):
I need to say anything. I'dkill him. Well, I take that
without even ask him. She madesure, she pointed out. But my
father cried, and all my siblingsthey did. They're worried about you.
Worried. Yeah again, I'm worried. I don't know. Why do you
(06:57):
think I have my own assumptions.What do you think? Well, I
think that they're just surprised that theynever saw anything coming with you. So
you heard that my mom said shewould have got me home. Yeah,
(07:18):
that's cute, me cute. There'sshe's gonna give me help. Well,
I mean realistically, had you everdisclosed to her your true feelings or intentions,
then she could have institutionalized you andkept you from doing things. You
don't agree with that, But youwould have talked your way out of it,
(07:42):
right, because you only go intoan institution and come out when you
want to come out, because thenyou're you're healed. Zero. Why Yeah,
I gotta say nothing to me.This is gonna get pretty boring in
this way. I would just curiouson when you said to them for them
(08:03):
to have answer the question what thequestion why? Good intentions? I don't
talk my way out of everything?Oh, but tell me you haven't talked
your way out of every single oneof them and talked your way in for
one purpose one purpose? Well,no, I would say two. There's
(08:28):
two purposes to your trips adventure.Nice answer. I like that. It's
almost as good as unicorn. Andyou know there's no such saying as Unfor's
right, it's a mystical creature.I'm such thing. I don't care it
doesn't work, Sure it does.It was a good analogy until it was
(08:52):
not. Well, that's not myfault. You think I had it put
there, probably did. It's twistedand the yell that peel all the pain
off the laws because they game,you're nothing to do. Yeah, m
but the guard came in and sweptthe floor. So how come you out
(09:13):
and have a good conversation with yourmom? It wasn't bad. I'm sure
she cried. Yeah, I thinkshe just wants to know answers to things
that only you can give her.She can't hear answers from me. They
don't mean anything. You get that, right. You realize that she probably
sets and she blames herself. Yeah, but do you really think that means
(09:37):
anything? Yeah? But do youreally think that that means anything when you
don't give her an actual reason orexcuse? And I understand that you say
these things because you're concerned that you'rebeing recorded, But you're being recorded right
here with me, right now,just like you have been always. So
why why would you hold back withyour mother or your family at a time,
(10:01):
at a juncture like this? WhyI've always tried to protect them?
How are you protecting them at thispoint? How I'm waiting for the big
unvailing We got to get to that. You see what it's done to my
(10:22):
family already, right? Can youput them in a bubble for a little
bit in a bubble? Why wouldI put them in a bubble? Protect
them? They realize where things aregoing with you without with that, I
think you're wrong about that. Ithink she's stronger than you think now.
(10:46):
Kelly's psych evaluation was completely redacted fromthe files, However, on several occasions
Jeremy mentions its findings in conversation withher, and it seems she was diagnosed
as both a psychopath and a narcissist, which is why Jeremy began referring to
(11:07):
her as a unicorn, the rarepsychopathic narcissist who claims to have fallen in
love. And it's her narcissism thatmight explain why in the three hundred plus
text messages she's sent to Ogden inthe two months between Jason's death and her
arrest, Kelly treats him more likea therapist or boyfriend than she does a
(11:31):
cop investigating her for murder. Sheseems to simultaneously think that he's there to
help her and that she can outsmarthim. In an almost comically trite way,
she compares their relationship to a gameof chess amongst friends. She even
(11:54):
checkmates him via text several times,and one of those check mates would prove
just how calculated and sinister Kelly reallyis. Talk to me as far as
how many Yeah, the same amountthat I put on that sheet of paper
(12:16):
the first time I gave you atotal? For sure? For sure?
Yeah that I know of eleven?No bullshot? Okay, where are they
all over Indiana? Indiana? Alum? And how do you know that he's
(12:41):
responsible for eleven in Indiana? Iknow well I couldn't have been there because
I'd be guilty. Okay, I'mnot gonna do this with you. I'm
not gonna do it. I mean, you're you're gonna sit here, You're
gonna I don't even understand this,Kelly. You sent her, and you
(13:07):
talk to me about who you are, right, who you are, what
your makeup is, and you thinkthat you can try to change that now
with me by saying zero. Andyou know exactly what you tried to do
during this case. And that's nojoke. That doesn't go away. You
(13:33):
know it doesn't go away. Howon earth can you think for a minute
that I can believe zero when Iknow what you were doing with her.
You know what she does to herself. I do know what she does to
herself. I know what a littlebit of help from you helps. Though
I didn't talk to her after thelast time I've seen her, so I
(13:54):
don't know what happened to her.Well, there's a reason, just like
everything had happened with her, Youand her and get her to meet you
at the park and send me thattext. Everything else, I know exactly
what that was. That was themoving another piece. Why are you going
(14:22):
to revert you? This is theway you want this to go down.
You want to You want to sithere now, and you want to try
to tell me that you weren't movingchess pieces all around all along. I
don't care. That's why you wantto try to do it. You can
try to do it that way.You don't think I succeed. No,
(14:50):
the woman they're discussing here is thefast food worker Kelly picked up allegedly for
Jason, whom she eventually had aseparate therewith. For the sake of protecting
her identity, I'll be referring toher as Alicia throughout the podcast and censoring
her name in audio clips as youmay recall, Jason, Kelly, and
(15:13):
Alicia engaged in several drug fueled threesomeswhile the Cochranes were in Indiana hiding out
from the Iron River PD. Accordingto multiple reports, Kelly and Alicia eventually
started having a separate sexual relationship,and when Jason found out, he got
(15:33):
upset and Kelly ended things. Well, that's not entirely nor exactly what happened
with Alicia. According to police interviewswith Alicia, it was she who ended
(15:54):
things with the Cochranes when she checkedinto a drug and alcohol rehab facility and
November of twenty fifteen. Following herrelease, she periodically received texts from Kelly,
but mostly ignored them. She wasworking on her sobriety and knew that
Kelly Cochrane was the last person sheneeded in her life while fresh out of
(16:15):
rehab. Unfortunately, that changed inFebruary of twenty sixteen. On the morning
of February twentieth, just several hoursafter Jason was pronounced dead, Kelly texted
Alicia, Jason is dead. Accordingto Alicia, Kelly never specified how exactly
(16:40):
Jason died, just that he diedsuddenly at around five am that morning,
and then Kelly became a grieving wife. She told Alicia that she was scared
and devastated that she needed her nowmore than ever, but Alicia kept her
distance, even after Kelly begged herto come to Jason's funeral on the twenty
(17:03):
fourth. The two continued texting,however, and Kelly continued using Jason's death
to get close to Alicia. Andwhile Kelly was relentlessly trying to get to
Alicia, so was Detective Ogden.Jeremy Ogden was assigned the Jason Cochrane homicide
(17:27):
case on February twenty third, andafter an interview with Walt Amerman, he
found out about the fast food workerthat Kelly bragged about picking up for Jason,
and so Ogden started making his waythrough fast food restaurants in Hobart and
Meryllville, and on February twenty ninth, he found her that night at the
(17:53):
Hobart police station. Alicia detailed herentire relationship with the Cochranes, meeting Kelly
at work, the threesomes, thedrugs, the strangulation and belt play,
her separate affair with Kelly, andher ongoing relationship via text with Kelly.
(18:14):
It was clear based on her initialinterview that Alicia would be a key witness
for prosecutors in the trial and thatshe may even be able to shed light
on the Cochrane's m O and otherpossible crimes. Ogden kept communication open with
Alicia while he continued investigating Kelly andKelly kept text messaging, both of them
(18:37):
continually trying to use Jason's death tolure Alicia out and casually discussing Chris Regan's
disappearance and Jason's death with Ogden.In fact, while she was under investigation,
Kelly initiated multiple meetings with Ogden todiscuss the investigation. In March of
(18:59):
twenty sixteen, Kelly met with Ogdenat least nine different times. This was
the same month that Walt Amerman gotKelly to confess she wouldn't be arrested for
another month after that confession. It'salso the month where Ogden realized that Kelly
was stalking him. Throughout his investigation, throughout the Walt Amerman rouse, and
(19:23):
throughout his ongoing talks with Alicia.Kelly was following Jeremy Ogden. She would
slowly drive past his house several timesa day. He would find her hanging
out in the park near his homemultiple times, and on several occasions he
even eyed her tailing him out andabout in Hobart, and as Ogden continued
(19:48):
working with Laura Frizzo in preparation foran arrest, Kelly's text kept rolling in,
most of which were Kelly's scheduling meetingsthen bailing on them, or strange
late night ramblings. That is untilApril fifteenth, when Ogden received an incredibly
disturbing text message from Kelly. Ateleven thirty two pm on April fifteenth,
(20:22):
Jeremy Ogden received a text from Kelly. It was a picture of Alicia topless.
She immediately texted again, Hey,sweets, was this the pick that
you sent me from our last time? I thought you sent me a different
one. We got some fun tobe had, see you soon. If
(20:48):
you need help finding the park,just call me. Be safe. Kelly
had either accidentally sent a text forAlicia to Jeremy, or more likely,
she wanted Jeremy to think that.Either way, it was clear that Kelly
(21:08):
was about to have a midnight meetingin an empty park with Ogden's key witness
in the Jason Cochrane murder. Investigation. Unfortunately, Jeremy was already asleep when
Kelly's text came in and before hecould respond. The following morning, Kelly
(21:32):
was at the police station to askif there had been any late night or
early morning car accidents in Hobert Ta. Going to be another one of those
petty charges on the ship. Itis a petty charge compared to everything else.
(21:53):
Poison, Tell me what happened thatworked this way. The more Kelly
discussed Alicia, the more clear itbecame what exactly her intentions were for her
(22:15):
all along, and how Kelly actuallyfelt about Alicia. It was one of
few times Kelly seemed to have agenuine, visceral reaction to well anything.
As Kelly described their relationship with Alicia, she seethed. And there was one
(22:36):
thing Kelly seemed to always go backto, the one reason she had so
much disdain for Alicia. She's fuckingstupid. She's the mother's three. She
spends her time getting fucking high andcorrect. The first thing hung up.
(23:00):
She had smoked crack me and hersnipped heroine. We popped pills, didn't
give her anything weird. We tooksome how, let me take took some
zhangs at night. We took someburkas that that night. Nothing out the
ordinary. She got sick, butI think she got sick because of all
the fucking shit she did good.She was sick from the time we got
(23:25):
to the bar. I had Jasonput her in his truck. I think
trying to think of what, wehad two vehicles there at the bar that
night. I think she ended upin Yeah, I had her. I
didn't want her to throw up atmy fucking truck again. She threw up
my truck nasty um. So shepassed out, even on crack in his
(23:48):
truck. The next time. Ididn't know she gets sick the next time,
that was a hotel. I don'tthink she got sick. That she
had suped a few times, soafter that she shouldn't get sick the next
time. There was anything out ofthe word engineering. After those first encounters,
(24:14):
Alicia checked into rehab and got sober. Then Kelly used Jason's death to
get back into her life, andafter a month of texting and after Kelly
realized Alicia was working with Ogden,she convinced her to meet in the park
that late night, and Kelly wasready for her with booze and an arsenal
(24:37):
of drugs. When we got outlast time, surprisingly she swom crack.
She took for percost which for legitimate, legitimately purcosa, and then she took
(24:59):
set at It, what she thoughtwere percoset. You gave them to her,
gave her whole bottle, And whydid you? Why did you give
them to her? She liked takingthose, Yeah, but I mean,
why would you give them to her? There's a reason you give them to
her? Soul whine. I gaveher atmund too, Okay, get back
(25:21):
to the real reason. Be honest, I am you told her. You
told her they were percosets. Shetook the percosets, okay. So then
you gave her sedatives under the impressionthat they were. I gave her trosed
on okay, and what does thatdo to you? Come on you okay?
(25:48):
Okay? For what purpose? Backoutsidetive? Okay? So at that
point, what was the plan?Not to kill her? Okay, I'm
kill her? No, Okay?What was a plan? Though there wasn't
really a plan? I just whydid you send me the picture that I
(26:11):
really don't remember? Seting bulls?Bullshit? You were like, give me
a break. You can't even dothis with me. I had the videotape
of you in the interview room thenext day. Do you realize what you
say to me and in what wayyou say it to me? So why
(26:33):
be honest? I didn't have aplan for her. She just she annoyed
the shit out of me because hereshe's out hurting and when she should be
at home. Really, so whydid you give rid the setups in she
(26:57):
annoyed me? Mean, did shetake She didn't do things in moderation,
She took like four to be Andso what did you tell her that they
were? Did you tell her thatthey were percocets? That's what I got
from what you first said to me. Just now, Oh no, no,
she had the percocets. Those werethe yellow pills. Okay, yeah,
(27:19):
those are the yellow pills that theother ones were white tried to play.
So what did you tell her thatthey were when you get into her.
I don't know if we even talkedabout it as far as what they
were. So you're telling me youhad no intentions at all of doing anything
to her as far as killing her. Okay, did you think that she
(27:44):
was going to leave there and maybedie on her own because of the amount
of drugs. You just gave herthe truth, the true. Because what
did you say to me the nextday? I used if there was any
accidents, because when we were leavingthe park, we were at Rugby Field
because we had won Sheffields and acouple of drinks too. When we were
leaving, she asked how to getout of there? Well, she was
(28:07):
going to follow me. That's whyI assumed she went to you to the
police station, because when I left, I went out, you know,
turning left out of the Rugby Fieldand then like curving off by the laundry
mat, by the bank and shitlike that to go downtown. She went
the other way, turning left outof there by really used to have the
(28:29):
hot dog stand where the guy's gotall the nice cars in there. Yeah,
she turned left, and then Ithought her car turned right, which
would put her straight by the policestation. Kelly and Jeremy spend the next
few minutes arguing like an old marriedcouple about the exact location of the hot
dog stand a cemetery, the cemetery'shours of operation, where you can turn
(28:52):
left, where you can't turn left, and whether one street is a dead
end or not anyway, so youknow where she went. I really thought,
Okay, So when I asked youabout her, why are you Kentucky?
Did did you allude to you poisonedher? But say you can't poison
somebody when they ingested on their own. She poisons herself every day. But
(29:15):
you helped her, and you knewwhat you were doing. You knew you
were feeding her ship that she shouldn'thave, right, Yeah, So what
did you think was going to happento her? She's a seasoned drugging.
She could handle it. Get outof here. Bullshit. You didn't think
(29:36):
that for one minute. It's onlyfor her milligrams? My god, would
you? Would you stop? Wouldyou just tell the freaking truth for your
milligrams? Oh? My god,are you really gonna do this with me?
I'm just saying for your milgrams?Knock it off. I could do
that. We're having a conversation.The foreigner miligrams isn't that much unless she
(29:56):
took more, because you remember thewhole bottle. I didn't, And what
did you tell her that they wereI don't think I told her anything.
According to multiple statements, Kelly toldAlicia. The sedatives she gave her were
actually percoset. Okay, Oh,why do you give her a bottle?
I give her a cell phan?How many pills were in it other than
(30:22):
what she took? I think elevenor twelve? And how many did she
take it once? I think four? Did you encourage her to take four?
No? I didn't. No,really, This interview is on video,
and I have to stress that Kellyis smiling and laughing throughout the conversation.
(30:48):
So why did you bring that particulardrug to give to her? I
have I usually roll around with plentyof stuff. Okay, why did you
give her that particular drug? Mygod? Would you quit? I'm trying
to get you to tell me.I have a conversation and tell me the
(31:08):
truth. What really, what doesthis matter in the big picture of everything,
because it's a girl. It doesn'tmatter. It does, but it
doesn't. Well, you didn't,so you didn't kill her, but could
have exactly could have done without thedrugs? I know that probably a hundred
(31:30):
times. Yeah, probably. Idon't want to be a stereotype. Most
women poison. Oh my god,would you quit. Nobody's putting a stereotype
on you because Jason technically wasn't poisoned. Ultimately, no, he wasn't.
Thank you wasn't. To make surethat's clear, he wasn't. Why do
you why do you not? Youwant to be different? I am different?
Okay, he wasn't poisoned. Thisis something else that comes up a
(31:52):
lot throughout her interviews. Kelly doesnot in any way want to be associated
with any female serial killer stereotypes,like, for example, using poison to
murder people. She also doesn't wantto be known as a woman who murdered
other women, because if he waspoisoned, that would you know, insinuate
(32:16):
that I poisoned him? And Ididn't. Okay, I already explain what
happened, So every other woman,I didn't say, you're like every other
woman, So you're every other womanthat kills people? Okay, don't want
to explain. Um, she annoyedme, okay, so what was the
(32:39):
goal? Were you upset with herbecause she had spoken to me? No?
No, they had nothing to dowith So then why would you send
me the picture of her? Inthe text? Like checkmate, no clue,
all bullshit, no clue, don'tsit here, don't do this,
don't do it. Don't do itmore talking like this, don't do that
(33:02):
to me. Tell the truth.I was just tired of her. She
just don't await me. The dayafter her midnight meeting with Kelly, Alicia
was rushed to the hospital for whatappeared to be an overdose, and while
(33:24):
the toxicology report has been redacted fromthe police files, there is paperwork confirming
that she had been poisoned in additionto the prescription and recreational drug she was
on that night. What exactly Kellyused to poison her has never been made
publicly available. Interestingly, on thesame afternoon that the toxicology report for Alicia
(33:47):
was released, Kelly voluntarily checked herselfinto a psychiatric facility for four days.
She told doctor she was having suicidaland homicidal ideation. You may recall that
two days after Chris Reagan's murder,Jason checked himself into a psychiatric facility for
(34:08):
the same reasons. Alicia did survivethe attack and poisoning, but unfortunately fell
back into addiction after her final encounterwith Kelly cochrane, and this year she
had got into a near fatal headon collision while driving the wrong way down
a freeway in Indiana while on drugs. She now faces five felony counts of
(34:35):
causing serious bodily injury while driving intoxicating. I mean, you told me already
that no one would miss her.He told me that in Kentucky nobody would.
Nobody would What was she picked forto begin with? A toy for
(34:55):
Jason? Nothing else but that?Correct? He wasn't gonna kill her.
No, did he kill other women? Yes? He didn't have a preference
on men and women. His wasmore anger, all right? But her?
How many women did Jason kill him? Four? And in what capacity?
(35:22):
Usually some form of torture? Okay? But um, how would you
hook up with him? Not byme hooking him up? Now? I
know he can. He ran intopeople. But he was the shy,
(35:46):
bashful Jason with some people. Somepeople might know him like that. Were
they white or black? White?All white? As far as I know,
yeah, is there every time hekills a black person? According to
several interviews with multiple witnesses, JasonCochrane was a racist. Kelly's brother even
(36:12):
told police that Jason once mentioned plansto blow up a rap concert because much
of his hate was directed towards blackpeople. He also told Kelly's brother that
he planned on targeting black people bypoisoning the water supply of Gary, Indiana,
a city with an eighty one percentblack population. Kelly's strong and immediate
(36:38):
denial of Jason killing a black personobviously paints a sharp contrast to Jason's previous
statements to her brother and others.She would also later contradict her immediate response
surrounding how many women Jason killed.After their hours and hours of conversations,
(36:59):
Kelly find only seemed to land ontwo different victim counts twenty one people who
she killed, eleven people who Jasonkilled, and Chris Regan, who they
killed together. But when she eventuallywrote out a list of Jason's eleven victims,
it listed nine men and only twowomen. That list, though,
(37:23):
is similar to Kelly's handwritten list ofher twenty one victims, and that it
just doesn't seem real. For themost part, each victim on each list
leads to a dead end. Therewere, however, some exceptions. In
(37:43):
fact, one of Kelly's most dubiousclaims actually led detectives to a dumpster in
Illinois full of evidence, and Kelly'sbrother would unintentionally lead police to an unsolved
murder in mine soda. In fact, it was her brother's interview that would
(38:04):
point police in some of the mostpromising directions. He spoke of Jason's fixation
on using hydrochloric acid and pigs toget rid of bodies. He spoke of
an affair Kelly had with a manin Minnesota, and then there was the
woman Jason had an affair with inIndiana. Most notably, though, was
(38:27):
the story that Kelly and Jason toldhim together about breaking into a house in
a rural area and killing everyone init, including the children, which posed
the question were Kelly and Jason Cochranecapable of killing kids? Well, according
(38:51):
to qua Quack's book, they were, and according to Kelly herself in her
interviews with Ogden, they did
This is a studio, both andproduction. You know, it's hard to
fight that self preservation though, right, I know that I'm not trying to
play a game with you win orlose. You know that, right?
(00:29):
Do you get that? That's notit, that's not that's not the game.
Okay? So then why why onEarth? Why on Earth sat here
and play the game with me?What else do I have left? I'm
not going anywhere. No, I'mnot going anywhere, and I'm here to
talk to you. Disappointed in me? I'm getting my whole life to this
(00:53):
job. Why can't I have timefor me? That bothers? You don't
have time for you? But wellthat's I'm not saying I'm never going to
do anything again. I'm just notgoing to do it now. You're it.
This is it. You have apassion when you were doing what you're
doing what you're doing now, eventhough I make you fucking nuts. Time
(01:15):
to do that to people, youdon't make me nuts. You frustrate people,
and you use frustration to create confusion, and you try to run people
in different directions so as they don'tlook at the right things. But I
just wouldn't allow you to run mein a lot of fucking bullshit directions.
(01:38):
So you either have you either haverespect for what's occurred between me and you
and you choose to talk to me, or you set here and you can
play your game. Dear Kelly,I'm a podcast producer and currently working on
(02:00):
a season of my show about you. I watched a four part series about
you on Investigation Discovery and was absolutelyfascinated by it. From your relationship with
Jason, to your studying of psychologyand forensics, your complicated feelings for Chris
Regan, and your incredible work ethic. There are a lot of really interesting
(02:21):
dynamics to your life that make fora very compelling story. And obviously I
have a lot of questions. Here'sa little bit about me, so it
doesn't feel like you're talking into thevoid. I grew up in California,
where I studied biology and psychology.However, the majority of my career has
(02:42):
been in writing in various forms,and now I produce a true crime podcast.
My previous two seasons were on serialkiller Israel Keys, and the objective
of my show has always been holisticstorytelling, not just crime victim killer.
I want to get to the rootof who the people involved are, what
(03:05):
drives them, how the crime hasimpacted them, and just generally understand how
someone becomes a killer. I guesswhat I'd love from any exchanges we may
have is to first and foremost getto know you and get a whole picture
of your life. But I'll alsobe looking into possible victims of yours and
or Jason's, including Andrew and theother Jason from Minnesota, and trying to
(03:30):
parse reality from lies. I thinkeven you can admit you've done some embellishing
in the past. I'm also awarethat you're trying to get relocated to California,
and I'm curious, why, whyCalifornia? What's there for you?
Anyhow, I'm hoping you'll be interestedin sharing your story with me and corresponding
(03:53):
more. All my best, Josh. Less than a week after I sent
that letter, I finally received thecase files from Iron River and the Michigan
State Police, an entire terabyte worthof files, including over a hundred hours
(04:15):
of interviews and more than six thousandpages of documentation. And those interviews and
documents which shed so much light onwho Kelly is, what she's capable of,
and which confessions investigators did and didn'ttake seriously. They would also expose
some repeating patterns surrounding the number ofvictims Kelly claimed she and Jason separately were
(04:40):
responsible for, a number will divedeep into in a future episode. What
stands out most from the files,though, is just how immersed in the
case Hobert Detective Jeremy Ogten was,particularly in the months following Jason's murder,
when he and Kelly were talking almostdaily. Their conversations are uncomfortable. Often
(05:04):
Kelly appears to be flirting with Jeremy, and Jeremy goes back and forth between
playing bad cop and good cop withher. They seem to have a strong
rapport and some sense of mutual respect, and they speak in metaphor a lot.
They very frequently refer to Kelly asa unicorn. They compare Kelly's crimes
(05:27):
to a magician pulling various items fromhis hat, and Kelly remains calm,
coy, and flirtatious throughout. Thereare times where I genuinely cannot tell if
her adoration for Jeremy is real oran act. When I cannot tell if
Jeremy's adoration for her is real oran act, so I went and saw
(05:50):
mom and dad. Yes, Iwas going to actually ask you about that.
I brought your stuff. No,but I was going to ask you
that. What could you possibly sayto my family to him? I'm to
ask me if I ever loved them. I didn't say anything to your family
where they would make them ask youif you ever loved them? Should I
answer to that? I don't knowwhat's the real answer to that. What
(06:12):
is it? I don't know.I don't answer your questions for you.
I haven't yet have I I don'tknow if I answered her. You didn't.
You didn't. Are you listening tothe car? So then I guess
(06:32):
I need to say anything. I'dkill him. Well, I take that
without even ask him. She madesure, she pointed out. But my
father cried, and all my siblingsthey did. They're worried about you.
Worried. Yeah again, I'm worried. I don't know. Why do you
(06:57):
think I have my own assumptions.What do you think? Well, I
think that they're just surprised that theynever saw anything coming with you. So
you heard that my mom said shewould have got me home. Yeah,
(07:18):
that's cute, me cute. There'sshe's gonna give me help. Well,
I mean realistically, had you everdisclosed to her your true feelings or intentions,
then she could have institutionalized you andkept you from doing things. You
don't agree with that, But youwould have talked your way out of it,
(07:42):
right, because you only go intoan institution and come out when you
want to come out, because thenyou're you're healed. Zero. Why Yeah,
I gotta say nothing to me.This is gonna get pretty boring in
this way. I would just curiouson when you said to them for them
(08:03):
to have answer the question what thequestion why? Good intentions? I don't
talk my way out of everything?Oh, but tell me you haven't talked
your way out of every single oneof them and talked your way in for
one purpose one purpose? Well,no, I would say two. There's
(08:28):
two purposes to your trips adventure.Nice answer. I like that. It's
almost as good as unicorn. Andyou know there's no such saying as Unfor's
right, it's a mystical creature.I'm such thing. I don't care it
doesn't work, Sure it does.It was a good analogy until it was
(08:52):
not. Well, that's not myfault. You think I had it put
there, probably did. It's twistedand the yell that peel all the pain
off the laws because they game,you're nothing to do. Yeah, m
but the guard came in and sweptthe floor. So how come you out
(09:13):
and have a good conversation with yourmom? It wasn't bad. I'm sure
she cried. Yeah, I thinkshe just wants to know answers to things
that only you can give her.She can't hear answers from me. They
don't mean anything. You get that, right. You realize that she probably
sets and she blames herself. Yeah, but do you really think that means
(09:37):
anything? Yeah? But do youreally think that that means anything when you
don't give her an actual reason orexcuse? And I understand that you say
these things because you're concerned that you'rebeing recorded, But you're being recorded right
here with me, right now,just like you have been always. So
why why would you hold back withyour mother or your family at a time,
(10:01):
at a juncture like this? WhyI've always tried to protect them?
How are you protecting them at thispoint? How I'm waiting for the big
unvailing We got to get to that. You see what it's done to my
(10:22):
family already, right? Can youput them in a bubble for a little
bit in a bubble? Why wouldI put them in a bubble? Protect
them? They realize where things aregoing with you without with that, I
think you're wrong about that. Ithink she's stronger than you think now.
(10:46):
Kelly's psych evaluation was completely redacted fromthe files, However, on several occasions
Jeremy mentions its findings in conversation withher, and it seems she was diagnosed
as both a psychopath and a narcissist, which is why Jeremy began referring to
(11:07):
her as a unicorn, the rarepsychopathic narcissist who claims to have fallen in
love. And it's her narcissism thatmight explain why in the three hundred plus
text messages she's sent to Ogden inthe two months between Jason's death and her
arrest, Kelly treats him more likea therapist or boyfriend than she does a
(11:31):
cop investigating her for murder. Sheseems to simultaneously think that he's there to
help her and that she can outsmarthim. In an almost comically trite way,
she compares their relationship to a gameof chess amongst friends. She even
(11:54):
checkmates him via text several times,and one of those check mates would prove
just how calculated and sinister Kelly reallyis. Talk to me as far as
how many Yeah, the same amountthat I put on that sheet of paper
(12:16):
the first time I gave you atotal? For sure? For sure?
Yeah that I know of eleven?No bullshot? Okay, where are they
all over Indiana? Indiana? Alum? And how do you know that he's
(12:41):
responsible for eleven in Indiana? Iknow well I couldn't have been there because
I'd be guilty. Okay, I'mnot gonna do this with you. I'm
not gonna do it. I mean, you're you're gonna sit here, You're
gonna I don't even understand this,Kelly. You sent her, and you
(13:07):
talk to me about who you are, right, who you are, what
your makeup is, and you thinkthat you can try to change that now
with me by saying zero. Andyou know exactly what you tried to do
during this case. And that's nojoke. That doesn't go away. You
(13:33):
know it doesn't go away. Howon earth can you think for a minute
that I can believe zero when Iknow what you were doing with her.
You know what she does to herself. I do know what she does to
herself. I know what a littlebit of help from you helps. Though
I didn't talk to her after thelast time I've seen her, so I
(13:54):
don't know what happened to her.Well, there's a reason, just like
everything had happened with her, Youand her and get her to meet you
at the park and send me thattext. Everything else, I know exactly
what that was. That was themoving another piece. Why are you going
(14:22):
to revert you? This is theway you want this to go down.
You want to You want to sithere now, and you want to try
to tell me that you weren't movingchess pieces all around all along. I
don't care. That's why you wantto try to do it. You can
try to do it that way.You don't think I succeed. No,
(14:50):
the woman they're discussing here is thefast food worker Kelly picked up allegedly for
Jason, whom she eventually had aseparate therewith. For the sake of protecting
her identity, I'll be referring toher as Alicia throughout the podcast and censoring
her name in audio clips as youmay recall, Jason, Kelly, and
(15:13):
Alicia engaged in several drug fueled threesomeswhile the Cochranes were in Indiana hiding out
from the Iron River PD. Accordingto multiple reports, Kelly and Alicia eventually
started having a separate sexual relationship,and when Jason found out, he got
(15:33):
upset and Kelly ended things. Well, that's not entirely nor exactly what happened
with Alicia. According to police interviewswith Alicia, it was she who ended
(15:54):
things with the Cochranes when she checkedinto a drug and alcohol rehab facility and
November of twenty fifteen. Following herrelease, she periodically received texts from Kelly,
but mostly ignored them. She wasworking on her sobriety and knew that
Kelly Cochrane was the last person sheneeded in her life while fresh out of
(16:15):
rehab. Unfortunately, that changed inFebruary of twenty sixteen. On the morning
of February twentieth, just several hoursafter Jason was pronounced dead, Kelly texted
Alicia, Jason is dead. Accordingto Alicia, Kelly never specified how exactly
(16:40):
Jason died, just that he diedsuddenly at around five am that morning,
and then Kelly became a grieving wife. She told Alicia that she was scared
and devastated that she needed her nowmore than ever, but Alicia kept her
distance, even after Kelly begged herto come to Jason's funeral on the twenty
(17:03):
fourth. The two continued texting,however, and Kelly continued using Jason's death
to get close to Alicia. Andwhile Kelly was relentlessly trying to get to
Alicia, so was Detective Ogden.Jeremy Ogden was assigned the Jason Cochrane homicide
(17:27):
case on February twenty third, andafter an interview with Walt Amerman, he
found out about the fast food workerthat Kelly bragged about picking up for Jason,
and so Ogden started making his waythrough fast food restaurants in Hobart and
Meryllville, and on February twenty ninth, he found her that night at the
(17:53):
Hobart police station. Alicia detailed herentire relationship with the Cochranes, meeting Kelly
at work, the threesomes, thedrugs, the strangulation and belt play,
her separate affair with Kelly, andher ongoing relationship via text with Kelly.
(18:14):
It was clear based on her initialinterview that Alicia would be a key witness
for prosecutors in the trial and thatshe may even be able to shed light
on the Cochrane's m O and otherpossible crimes. Ogden kept communication open with
Alicia while he continued investigating Kelly andKelly kept text messaging, both of them
(18:37):
continually trying to use Jason's death tolure Alicia out and casually discussing Chris Regan's
disappearance and Jason's death with Ogden.In fact, while she was under investigation,
Kelly initiated multiple meetings with Ogden todiscuss the investigation. In March of
(18:59):
twenty sixteen, Kelly met with Ogdenat least nine different times. This was
the same month that Walt Amerman gotKelly to confess she wouldn't be arrested for
another month after that confession. It'salso the month where Ogden realized that Kelly
was stalking him. Throughout his investigation, throughout the Walt Amerman rouse, and
(19:23):
throughout his ongoing talks with Alicia.Kelly was following Jeremy Ogden. She would
slowly drive past his house several timesa day. He would find her hanging
out in the park near his homemultiple times, and on several occasions he
even eyed her tailing him out andabout in Hobart, and as Ogden continued
(19:48):
working with Laura Frizzo in preparation foran arrest, Kelly's text kept rolling in,
most of which were Kelly's scheduling meetingsthen bailing on them, or strange
late night ramblings. That is untilApril fifteenth, when Ogden received an incredibly
disturbing text message from Kelly. Ateleven thirty two pm on April fifteenth,
(20:22):
Jeremy Ogden received a text from Kelly. It was a picture of Alicia topless.
She immediately texted again, Hey,sweets, was this the pick that
you sent me from our last time? I thought you sent me a different
one. We got some fun tobe had, see you soon. If
(20:48):
you need help finding the park,just call me. Be safe. Kelly
had either accidentally sent a text forAlicia to Jeremy, or more likely,
she wanted Jeremy to think that.Either way, it was clear that Kelly
(21:08):
was about to have a midnight meetingin an empty park with Ogden's key witness
in the Jason Cochrane murder. Investigation. Unfortunately, Jeremy was already asleep when
Kelly's text came in and before hecould respond. The following morning, Kelly
(21:32):
was at the police station to askif there had been any late night or
early morning car accidents in Hobert Ta. Going to be another one of those
petty charges on the ship. Itis a petty charge compared to everything else.
(21:53):
Poison, Tell me what happened thatworked this way. The more Kelly
discussed Alicia, the more clear itbecame what exactly her intentions were for her
(22:15):
all along, and how Kelly actuallyfelt about Alicia. It was one of
few times Kelly seemed to have agenuine, visceral reaction to well anything.
As Kelly described their relationship with Alicia, she seethed. And there was one
(22:36):
thing Kelly seemed to always go backto, the one reason she had so
much disdain for Alicia. She's fuckingstupid. She's the mother's three. She
spends her time getting fucking high andcorrect. The first thing hung up.
(23:00):
She had smoked crack me and hersnipped heroine. We popped pills, didn't
give her anything weird. We tooksome how, let me take took some
zhangs at night. We took someburkas that that night. Nothing out the
ordinary. She got sick, butI think she got sick because of all
the fucking shit she did good.She was sick from the time we got
(23:25):
to the bar. I had Jasonput her in his truck. I think
trying to think of what, wehad two vehicles there at the bar that
night. I think she ended upin Yeah, I had her. I
didn't want her to throw up atmy fucking truck again. She threw up
my truck nasty um. So shepassed out, even on crack in his
(23:48):
truck. The next time. Ididn't know she gets sick the next time,
that was a hotel. I don'tthink she got sick. That she
had suped a few times, soafter that she shouldn't get sick the next
time. There was anything out ofthe word engineering. After those first encounters,
(24:14):
Alicia checked into rehab and got sober. Then Kelly used Jason's death to
get back into her life, andafter a month of texting and after Kelly
realized Alicia was working with Ogden,she convinced her to meet in the park
that late night, and Kelly wasready for her with booze and an arsenal
(24:37):
of drugs. When we got outlast time, surprisingly she swom crack.
She took for percost which for legitimate, legitimately purcosa, and then she took
(24:59):
set at It, what she thoughtwere percoset. You gave them to her,
gave her whole bottle, And whydid you? Why did you give
them to her? She liked takingthose, Yeah, but I mean,
why would you give them to her? There's a reason you give them to
her? Soul whine. I gaveher atmund too, Okay, get back
(25:21):
to the real reason. Be honest, I am you told her. You
told her they were percosets. Shetook the percosets, okay. So then
you gave her sedatives under the impressionthat they were. I gave her trosed
on okay, and what does thatdo to you? Come on you okay?
(25:48):
Okay? For what purpose? Backoutsidetive? Okay? So at that
point, what was the plan?Not to kill her? Okay, I'm
kill her? No, Okay?What was a plan? Though there wasn't
really a plan? I just whydid you send me the picture that I
(26:11):
really don't remember? Seting bulls?Bullshit? You were like, give me
a break. You can't even dothis with me. I had the videotape
of you in the interview room thenext day. Do you realize what you
say to me and in what wayyou say it to me? So why
(26:33):
be honest? I didn't have aplan for her. She just she annoyed
the shit out of me because hereshe's out hurting and when she should be
at home. Really, so whydid you give rid the setups in she
(26:57):
annoyed me? Mean, did shetake She didn't do things in moderation,
She took like four to be Andso what did you tell her that they
were? Did you tell her thatthey were percocets? That's what I got
from what you first said to me. Just now, Oh no, no,
she had the percocets. Those werethe yellow pills. Okay, yeah,
(27:19):
those are the yellow pills that theother ones were white tried to play.
So what did you tell her thatthey were when you get into her.
I don't know if we even talkedabout it as far as what they
were. So you're telling me youhad no intentions at all of doing anything
to her as far as killing her. Okay, did you think that she
(27:44):
was going to leave there and maybedie on her own because of the amount
of drugs. You just gave herthe truth, the true. Because what
did you say to me the nextday? I used if there was any
accidents, because when we were leavingthe park, we were at Rugby Field
because we had won Sheffields and acouple of drinks too. When we were
leaving, she asked how to getout of there? Well, she was
(28:07):
going to follow me. That's whyI assumed she went to you to the
police station, because when I left, I went out, you know,
turning left out of the Rugby Fieldand then like curving off by the laundry
mat, by the bank and shitlike that to go downtown. She went
the other way, turning left outof there by really used to have the
(28:29):
hot dog stand where the guy's gotall the nice cars in there. Yeah,
she turned left, and then Ithought her car turned right, which
would put her straight by the policestation. Kelly and Jeremy spend the next
few minutes arguing like an old marriedcouple about the exact location of the hot
dog stand a cemetery, the cemetery'shours of operation, where you can turn
(28:52):
left, where you can't turn left, and whether one street is a dead
end or not anyway, so youknow where she went. I really thought,
Okay, So when I asked youabout her, why are you Kentucky?
Did did you allude to you poisonedher? But say you can't poison
somebody when they ingested on their own. She poisons herself every day. But
(29:15):
you helped her, and you knewwhat you were doing. You knew you
were feeding her ship that she shouldn'thave, right, Yeah, So what
did you think was going to happento her? She's a seasoned drugging.
She could handle it. Get outof here. Bullshit. You didn't think
(29:36):
that for one minute. It's onlyfor her milligrams? My god, would
you? Would you stop? Wouldyou just tell the freaking truth for your
milligrams? Oh? My god,are you really gonna do this with me?
I'm just saying for your milgrams?Knock it off. I could do
that. We're having a conversation.The foreigner miligrams isn't that much unless she
(29:56):
took more, because you remember thewhole bottle. I didn't, And what
did you tell her that they wereI don't think I told her anything.
According to multiple statements, Kelly toldAlicia. The sedatives she gave her were
actually percoset. Okay, Oh,why do you give her a bottle?
I give her a cell phan?How many pills were in it other than
(30:22):
what she took? I think elevenor twelve? And how many did she
take it once? I think four? Did you encourage her to take four?
No? I didn't. No,really, This interview is on video,
and I have to stress that Kellyis smiling and laughing throughout the conversation.
(30:48):
So why did you bring that particulardrug to give to her? I
have I usually roll around with plentyof stuff. Okay, why did you
give her that particular drug? Mygod? Would you quit? I'm trying
to get you to tell me.I have a conversation and tell me the
(31:08):
truth. What really, what doesthis matter in the big picture of everything,
because it's a girl. It doesn'tmatter. It does, but it
doesn't. Well, you didn't,so you didn't kill her, but could
have exactly could have done without thedrugs? I know that probably a hundred
(31:30):
times. Yeah, probably. Idon't want to be a stereotype. Most
women poison. Oh my god,would you quit. Nobody's putting a stereotype
on you because Jason technically wasn't poisoned. Ultimately, no, he wasn't.
Thank you wasn't. To make surethat's clear, he wasn't. Why do
you why do you not? Youwant to be different? I am different?
Okay, he wasn't poisoned. Thisis something else that comes up a
(31:52):
lot throughout her interviews. Kelly doesnot in any way want to be associated
with any female serial killer stereotypes,like, for example, using poison to
murder people. She also doesn't wantto be known as a woman who murdered
other women, because if he waspoisoned, that would you know, insinuate
(32:16):
that I poisoned him? And Ididn't. Okay, I already explain what
happened, So every other woman,I didn't say, you're like every other
woman, So you're every other womanthat kills people? Okay, don't want
to explain. Um, she annoyedme, okay, so what was the
(32:39):
goal? Were you upset with herbecause she had spoken to me? No?
No, they had nothing to dowith So then why would you send
me the picture of her? Inthe text? Like checkmate, no clue,
all bullshit, no clue, don'tsit here, don't do this,
don't do it. Don't do itmore talking like this, don't do that
(33:02):
to me. Tell the truth.I was just tired of her. She
just don't await me. The dayafter her midnight meeting with Kelly, Alicia
was rushed to the hospital for whatappeared to be an overdose, and while
(33:24):
the toxicology report has been redacted fromthe police files, there is paperwork confirming
that she had been poisoned in additionto the prescription and recreational drug she was
on that night. What exactly Kellyused to poison her has never been made
publicly available. Interestingly, on thesame afternoon that the toxicology report for Alicia
(33:47):
was released, Kelly voluntarily checked herselfinto a psychiatric facility for four days.
She told doctor she was having suicidaland homicidal ideation. You may recall that
two days after Chris Reagan's murder,Jason checked himself into a psychiatric facility for
(34:08):
the same reasons. Alicia did survivethe attack and poisoning, but unfortunately fell
back into addiction after her final encounterwith Kelly cochrane, and this year she
had got into a near fatal headon collision while driving the wrong way down
a freeway in Indiana while on drugs. She now faces five felony counts of
(34:35):
causing serious bodily injury while driving intoxicating. I mean, you told me already
that no one would miss her.He told me that in Kentucky nobody would.
Nobody would What was she picked forto begin with? A toy for
(34:55):
Jason? Nothing else but that?Correct? He wasn't gonna kill her.
No, did he kill other women? Yes? He didn't have a preference
on men and women. His wasmore anger, all right? But her?
How many women did Jason kill him? Four? And in what capacity?
(35:22):
Usually some form of torture? Okay? But um, how would you
hook up with him? Not byme hooking him up? Now? I
know he can. He ran intopeople. But he was the shy,
(35:46):
bashful Jason with some people. Somepeople might know him like that. Were
they white or black? White?All white? As far as I know,
yeah, is there every time hekills a black person? According to
several interviews with multiple witnesses, JasonCochrane was a racist. Kelly's brother even
(36:12):
told police that Jason once mentioned plansto blow up a rap concert because much
of his hate was directed towards blackpeople. He also told Kelly's brother that
he planned on targeting black people bypoisoning the water supply of Gary, Indiana,
a city with an eighty one percentblack population. Kelly's strong and immediate
(36:38):
denial of Jason killing a black personobviously paints a sharp contrast to Jason's previous
statements to her brother and others.She would also later contradict her immediate response
surrounding how many women Jason killed.After their hours and hours of conversations,
(36:59):
Kelly find only seemed to land ontwo different victim counts twenty one people who
she killed, eleven people who Jasonkilled, and Chris Regan, who they
killed together. But when she eventuallywrote out a list of Jason's eleven victims,
it listed nine men and only twowomen. That list, though,
(37:23):
is similar to Kelly's handwritten list ofher twenty one victims, and that it
just doesn't seem real. For themost part, each victim on each list
leads to a dead end. Therewere, however, some exceptions. In
(37:43):
fact, one of Kelly's most dubiousclaims actually led detectives to a dumpster in
Illinois full of evidence, and Kelly'sbrother would unintentionally lead police to an unsolved
murder in mine soda. In fact, it was her brother's interview that would
(38:04):
point police in some of the mostpromising directions. He spoke of Jason's fixation
on using hydrochloric acid and pigs toget rid of bodies. He spoke of
an affair Kelly had with a manin Minnesota, and then there was the
woman Jason had an affair with inIndiana. Most notably, though, was
(38:27):
the story that Kelly and Jason toldhim together about breaking into a house in
a rural area and killing everyone init, including the children, which posed
the question were Kelly and Jason Cochranecapable of killing kids? Well, according
(38:51):
to qua Quack's book, they were, and according to Kelly herself in her
interviews with Ogden, they did
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Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
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