May 31, 2023 • 39 mins
Kelly's brother, Colton, shares some revealing and shocking information with investigators. Kelly discusses her first three murders. And patterns begin to emerge.
Next Episode: 14 June 2023
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.pactpodcast.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience or to support the show: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Research assistance by Becca Cline.
Music by William Hellfire, Whithe, Sergey Cheremisinov, Lee Rosevere, Kyle Preston, and Radical Face.
Next Episode: 14 June 2023
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.pactpodcast.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience or to support the show: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Research assistance by Becca Cline.
Music by William Hellfire, Whithe, Sergey Cheremisinov, Lee Rosevere, Kyle Preston, and Radical Face.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
This is a studio both and production. Just a quick warning before we start
the show. This episode features discussionof infanticide, child abuse, and molestation.
If these topics are triggering for you, I recommend skipping from around the
(00:30):
nineteen minute ten second mark until aroundthe twenty four minute twenty second mark.
What's been going on? What's thedeal with everything? Can you tell us
work? Well? I thought youguys came here to tell me what you
think's going on. That's kind ofhow this should work. I think there's
(00:58):
a big game going on. Wemean everything she does is a game,
Okay, Like right now, it'sbeen going on in her life, her
whole life, her entire life.Those me and my parents are just talking.
(01:19):
They've been dealing with her doing stufflike this since she was a teenager,
Okay, anything to help her out, to get out of trouble,
to whatever. So what exactly whyare you saying? I don't think she
(01:41):
does has there's a reason for it, at least in her mind, and
she doesn't do anything unless it's goingto benefit her some way. I think
he's talking about her being in thehospital right now. Several days after Kelly
tried to murder Alicia in the park, Kelly's brother, Colton, and his
(02:02):
girlfriend voluntarily met with police to discussJason, Chris Reagan, Kelly, and
their childhood. In her interviews,Kelly describes Colton as her best friend.
She sometimes paints their relationship as thatof mother and child, but it was
(02:23):
clear from the moment he entered theHobert police station that that feeling wasn't mutual.
Kelly hadn't even been arrested yet,and Colton was certain she was responsible
for Jason's death and at a minimum, involved in Chris Regan's disappearance. Colton,
who is eight years Kelly's junior,would prove to be a key witness
(02:46):
in the investigation into the Cochranes.He started working for Kelly and Jason's pool
business when he was just eleven ortwelve years old, and continued working with
them until they moved to the UpperPeninsula eleven years later. So he spent
almost every single day with the Cochransfor over a decade, and both Kelly
(03:07):
and Jason were incredibly talkative, withColton shockingly talkative. Actually, did Jason
talk to you about killing people?Yeah? You know, I've never done
anything of it. Because well hewas an oddball anyway. You know,
(03:29):
he would talk about how he coulddissolve bodies and different acids or chopping people
up like with well any of hisanything he had, swords, axes,
hatchets, you name it. Um. He called it going camping. He
(03:52):
wanted to go and rip off houses, but not just rip off a house.
He would go and you know,he said he'd have to kill everybody
so there's no witness. Or hetalked about how he could poison the whole
water supply. Yeah, specifically nohol on. Did he start talking to
(04:18):
you about wanting to kill people.I started really getting to know him when
I was probably about eleven ish,Um, and that started pretty close to
right away. That's right. Jason, a twenty five year old man,
(04:41):
was sharing his plans for murder withKelly's eleven year old brother. When you
were at the house with Jason,did he ever show you anything? Did
he ever show me you any barrels, any acids, any well, any
torture things. I was never upin Michigan while they lived there. I'm
saying here, I mean doing thepools. We had hydrochloric acid, we
(05:05):
had muatic acid. We use thosefor pools, but he was talking about
a different acid too. I thinkhe said sulfuric, and I thought he
said, you can just get itfrom batteries, from my car batteries.
And you know, he's he toldmy dad before about say, he was
(05:33):
making something in the basement, likehe was trying to make like a superbug,
like a like a virus or something. And my Dad's like, why
would you even tell anybody that?He's like, oh, bro. But
(05:54):
I mean when it comes to weapons, he had a huge click swords,
access back like the novelty type twoknives, bow and arrow, crossbow,
a couple of guns. I don'tknow what it is about the acid though
(06:20):
he mentioned that on several occasions.That's why it stands out because he really
did mention that one a lot.And then I thought it was ironic that
Kelly mentioned that when the incidents tookplace up there, she told him because
he wanted to use it, theacid to get rid of the body,
(06:42):
not to use it. So hereally had like a thing for the acid
or something. In multiple interviews andin calls in letters with her parents,
Kelly claims that Jason had wanted todissolve Chris Rege and hydrochloric acid, but
that she talked him out of it, and several other witnesses claimed that Jason
(07:08):
had spoken to them repeatedly about dissolvingbodies in various types of acid. Of
course, this is an addition toJason talking about feeding people to his pigs,
But like Colton, everyone shugged itoff as just Jason being a strange
guy. That is, of course, until he and Kelly were wanted for
(07:32):
murder. But it wasn't just casualconversation about hypothetical murders that the Cochranes included
Colton in, do you have yourtext message in between the two of you
throughout all this time? Or doyou delete it? I delete delete that
could She's brewed so many numbers anyway, Yeah, why should go through all
(07:56):
the numbers? Probably make it hardtrack? But she says, because you
know, her phones keep getting takenand she hasn't want to reuse them,
we're probably getting close to eight ninedifferent numbers at least, um the phones.
You say it's been through eight ornine phones, liking what time since
(08:16):
it happened? Since she started beingin question about it back in the October
eight or nine numbers. Oh yeah, she gave him the one phone,
remember that track phone or whatever?She said, take she said, take
this out of I don't want toShe said she had no phone. So
oh no, she said she hadno phone for actually I actually paid for
(08:39):
one and she went and picked itup from the Walmart up there so she
could have a phone. And thenI have one of her old phones,
which I of course tried to seeif anything was on there. But do
you still have it? Yeah?Would you turn that over to me?
Sure, that'd be great. Yeah. Do you only have one of her
old phones? Yeah? Okay,But wasn't that a phone? It was
(09:01):
a um, what's your phone?It was Kelly, he bought that was
that one? Was her phone?She said I could have it, she
don't want anymore, and he keptit. He also has a he told
Laura about a notebook that oh yes, she does want to see that notebook.
(09:22):
Yeah. Um, Kelly gave mea notebook that was Jason's, which
I can tell you is Jason's forsure because the writing, um, just
different plans for different things, youknow. He had a plan for fish
farm, um, different ideas tomake money kind of thing. And I
(09:43):
was thrown off because towards the back, I could be wrong. I thought
it was like a formula, butit could be a formula make sure whatever
for chloroform. Okay, yeah,that threw me off out of all this
stuff in the book. And thentwo three four pages something like that.
(10:05):
From the back, I see theword chloroform memory and it says something about
mixing and taking something off the bottom, and that'll be chloroform. Like okay,
Kelly said she has a bunch moreof those journals of his. Now,
(10:26):
as far as I can tell,that journal never turned up, or
if it did, it was redactedin its entirety from the case file sent
to me. But it's not theonly mention of journals kept by Jason,
it seems. In addition to beingan aspiring novelist, Jason was a pretty
(10:48):
prolific writer and note taker. Kellytold investigators that she had stacks of journals
written by Jason which were hidden somewherein her parents attic, but when a
search was performed, those journals couldn'tbe found. That's when Jason's parents told
investigators that Kelly kept important paperwork,passports, and note books in a safe
(11:13):
and that when she fled Hobart priorto her arrest. That safe was one
of only a few things she tookwith her and when police found that safe
in her car, it was completelyempty. And as for the eight or
nine phones and phone numbers Kelly wentthrough, well, that was just in
(11:37):
the thirteen months following the Cochrane's returnto Indiana. Interestingly, files indicate that
Kelly used the same phone number totext back and forth with Detective Ogden during
that entire time, but they alsoshow that she had several other phone numbers
in use throughout that period. Thefire also indicate that one of those phones
(12:01):
was registered in Tampa, Florida,where Kelly was also able to somehow obtain
an email address through a Tampa specificISSP, which begs the question where was
Kelly on her way to when shegot arrested in Kentucky and why And all
(12:28):
of the files I've been through andall my independent research, there's only one
connection between Kelly Cochrane and Tampa,Florida. The convicted pedophile and registered sex
offender who lived with the Cochranes inHobart prior to their move to the Upper
Peninsula. According to court filings andthe sex offender registry. He returned to
(12:52):
Tampa where he originally committed his sexcrimes just several days after Andrew Fugate was
murdered, and if that man wasever interviewed by police, that interview was
redacted from the Foyophiles as well,but based on my discussion with Laura Frizzo,
it seems like he was never evenon the police's radar, which makes
(13:16):
it even more interesting that investigators didseem to have an interest in whether the
Cochranes were capable of harming children.As I've mentioned previously, in addition to
(13:37):
living with a pedophile, Jason alsowrote about quack Quack being one and abducting
and killing at least one young teenageboy. He also talked to Colton about
breaking into homes and killing everyone inside, making a point to specify that included
children. And when investigators talked withColton, both their line of questioning and
(14:03):
his answers raised some red flags aboutthe Cochrane's activities regarding kids. Has there
ever been a time in your lifewith them growing up where something weird happened
with you with them where you thoughtthat something occurred? Jason and Kelly.
(14:24):
Then I thought something possibly occurred.Yeah are you talking to what I asked
Laura about? Yeah, yeah,definitely. Okay, So what I mean
Jason went camping and then that wassoutheast to hear Aways. Bad thing is
I don't remember where. I knowwe passed somewhere some town with a foreign
(14:48):
name, which I've been trying tofigure that out. It was Brazil or
Peru. Yeah, we passed oneof those going to wherever we were going,
and U I was probably I'm tryingto think if I've had my license.
I was roughly right around sixteen,but I lost my license for three
(15:13):
months too, So nine ten yearsago roughly. And there's a day that
I don't recall. I can tellyou like two or three pictures of that
name what you mean, And bypictures, I mean I remember like a
still frame and then a while later, like a still frame, and that's
(15:37):
it. And what do you seein the still frame? One I was
at a pond it appeared to bethe entrance to the campground, sitting in
a chair, fishing pool and everything. Another one I was in the truck.
We were outside of a bait shop. That's it. That's it.
(16:00):
Were there any problems while you werethere. I don't know how many days
were you there. We drove out, um, we got everything set up
to that night, and then thenext day I don't remember, and then
we left the following morning. Sohe told me about that like years ago,
(16:22):
and he's like, it was soweird, but nothing. I mean,
he thought it was weird. Hecouldn't remember, and you know,
he was smoking whatever and he smokedweed while you were there. Yeah,
and he remembered. Um. Imean he said it was weird, but
not until Kelly had said, youknow that there was um. She said
(16:47):
that she was told that there werenine bodies, nine victims, which I
did, you guys, not true? I know. I had him ask
Laura that because I mean, it'sa whole different ballgame if if the police
are telling her that or if she'stelling them that. And then when she
(17:14):
said that you guys said that,then he was like wait, you know
then that's when his mind was likethinking, was I did something happen?
You know? Because what are yousmoking? He got from Jason, so
he's you know, he smoked potplenty of times and you know, never
ever had a problem like that,So not until she said that was he
(17:38):
But before that, you know,he thought it was weird. I mean,
you don't remember. But whatever questionColton asked Laura isn't included in the
available case files, but there's afew things to note about that particular conversation.
Kelly has claimed to have been abusedas a child, claims she has
(18:03):
since walked back for reasons unclear.Kelly was a Girl Scout leader in her
late teens and early twenties. Andthen there's camping. Based on interviews with
Kelly, the Cochranes seemed to treatcamping the same way israel Keys treated camping.
Jason even referred to breaking into people'shomes and murdering them as camping,
(18:30):
and that something will dive deeper intoin a future episode. But whether the
police seemed to think the Cochranes druggedColton while camping to use him and their
camping trip as an alibi, orthey think they drugged him and then molested
him on that trip is unclear,but frankly, both seem highly plausible,
(18:53):
which brings us to Kelly's strange andconflicting relationship with children. As you may
recall, most of Kelly's contempt forAlicia seemed to be based on her perceived
bad parenting. Kelly mentioned over andover again that Alicia was out partying with
(19:15):
her when she should have been athome taking care of her kids. We
also know that on at least oneoccasion, when the Cochranes were engaging in
a threesome with Alicia, they weredoing it while babysitting Kelly's young nieces,
whom Kelly was incredibly close with,according to Kelly and her prison correspondence with
(19:36):
family, and it was in herdiscussion about Alicia that led Kelly to make
some shocking confessions about her first threemurders were behavior, Oh no, no,
you no, I don't believe it. I believe you have Sie,
(19:59):
my nieces and stuff. The happinessaround them, Yeah, but it's not
yours, it's theirs. It's notyour happiness. It's their happiness that you
get to join in. So inturn, it's like you're a part of
it, but you're really not.Have you ever thought about that way?
That's why you like to be aroundthem, and because of what you are,
(20:22):
that's why you've never had a child. That's not true. You didn't
you wouldn't allow that to happen,and you acquire doesn't fairy? No,
it does, it really does notmefical? Oh you are? You are?
(20:45):
That's funny. That's the exact response. I thought you would have?
How many times? How many?How many times? I'm not no,
I want a number because you knowthe exact number. How many times?
(21:11):
How many? All the way?Many? How many? How many?
All the way? Because that numberis not too many, too all the
way? Full term? What years? I'm seven to you? In part?
And what happened? It doesn't countas many numbers. You don't count
(21:33):
them as numbers? Why not?Why not? How can you not?
Ye know that saying I don't know? Like her? Folks there say you
don't Invitus really take you out?You felt that from the beginning. Okay,
(21:55):
I actually agree that part. Soyou don't you don't count it as
part of your numbers. What werethey steaks? No? What were they
race? Both boys? Who isthe father of the first? My ax?
(22:18):
Harry? Carry? What cold?Where's Gary now? Missing? Since
when? Since it was it's almosthearten missing? Where did he live?
Catan City? Cayenan City alone?What happened to Gary Smart? Missing?
(22:45):
That's not true. Nobody just goesmissing with you. He speaks shit out
of me, trying to run youover with the car. Where is he?
It's kind of well, I knowthat baby. Kelly claimed that she
(23:17):
carried two babies to term and thenkilled them, even citing the Bill Cosby
quote, I brought you into thisworld, I can take you out of
it. She also went on totell Ogden that she aborted more babies than
she can count, and that sheenjoyed conceiving and then aborting fetuses of the
(23:42):
babies she claims she did carry toterm. The second of those was presumably
Jason's, since Kelly claims she wastwenty four at the time and would have
been married to Jason for four yearsat that point. But with Kelly,
you never know. The first baby, she claimed she had at seventeen,
(24:03):
and was bothered by a twenty fouryear old man from Calumet City, Illinois
named Gary Caldwell. How many peoplehave you killed? We're doing this again?
Well, I mean it's right,right terror you know. Okay,
that's your notebook, that's correct.That okay? What was the age you
(24:26):
killed your first person? The oneI told you to look into from New
Beginnings and you had question and I'mnot rewarding or anything like that, but
you had asked about the year.I know how old I was, but
there was follow up therapy. I'mdid on the follow up therapy and actually
went to a different high school atthat time too. They have record of
(24:51):
what I did. Okay, whatdid you do? What do you mean
the first time? How does itbegin manipulation? If you can believe that,
so then what build and trust?This was the first one was seven
(25:19):
months, six months I was learningwho I was. Okay, you know
this is hard for me. Iknow you don't know they do they do.
(25:45):
I don't want to be a scienceproject. Okay, I'm not trying
to make you one. You knowthat, right, Yeah, I'm gonna
trying to make you one. Ilegitimately the first time went in for help
(26:07):
because I knew I've had these feelingsall my life. Legitimately tried to get
help. I did put myself thereby saying untrue things like my parents beat
me, my parents would beat myass and noo. Yeah, um.
(26:29):
I used love and manipulation for thefirst one. And who who is it?
I gave you his name? GaryHelp Well, the psychiatrist I was
(26:51):
seeing, I had to know Gary. How old was Gary at that time?
Twenty four? Where where did youkill Gary? It wasn't on my
house? Where do you run allthe details? Well, I mean we
(27:14):
had several days to do this,But I mean, if we're talking about
this one specifically, let's talk aboutit. Where is Gary? He and
a few others won't be found.Where did Gary live at the time?
Between Chios city and Gary, helived with his mom and I believe a
(27:38):
sister in law was he investigated?I believe so. But just as far
as missing, he actually were youwhen this happened? Almost that was almost
(27:59):
seventeen, but between the six monthsseven months span, it was sixteen seventeen.
Now the details for the exception ofeverything, as far as finding anything,
went to the psychiatrist. I toldthe psychiatrist everything, okay, Um,
(28:26):
they didn't care. They didn't believeme. Did she wrote it down?
Why would I lie about that?He did? Um? He was
in the military. Um he wasin the military. Yeah, not not
not army or anything. He didon the weekend. So it would be
(28:48):
a national guard probably national guard.It was week every other weekend or something.
And a couple of days a monthhe did security at one of the
yards or the end of machinery.Ship. Investigators were able to confirm that
(29:11):
Kelly was checked into a girl's homecalled New Beginnings in either nineteen ninety seven
or nineteen ninety nine, accounts Fairy, although her records from that stay,
including when exactly she was admitted andfor how long, are not available because
New Beginnings is no longer an operationand the mental health facility that took it
(29:34):
over didn't maintain their records. Butif it's true that she did check in
because of homicidal feelings and actual murderof Gary Caldwell, who will get into
in a minute, it would fallinto a pattern that has slowly been emerging
in my research on the Cochranes andtheir crimes. One day after Kelly tries
(30:00):
to kill Alicia, she checks herselfinto a mental health facility. Two days
after Jason shoots and kills Chris Regan, he checks himself into a mental health
facility. And now Kelly checked herselfinto a facility shortly after allegedly murdering Gary
(30:21):
Caldwell and his baby, who shecarried to term. In addition to those
confirmed visits. Kelly and Jason checkedthemselves into other mental health facilities at least
two and three other times, respectively, including a thirty day stay for Kelly
in Hobart beginning April twenty first oftwo thousand and seven, and a five
(30:44):
day stay for Jason in Rhinelander,Wisconsin, beginning June twenty fifth of twenty
fourteen. And as Colton explained inthe opening clip, everything Kelly does is
a game and all of her actionsare in service of herself. Kelly had
checked herself into a mental health facilitythe day before Colton's police interview, and
(31:07):
he discussed at length how Kelly hada history of using her mental health to
manipulate people and get away with badbehavior. In the beginning to talking about
how at the time of Chris's thing, Jason was in the hospital. That's
originally what she said, so there'sno way he could have done it.
(31:32):
Well, it turns out that wasa lie, complete lie, another coincidence.
No, maybe she just makes upthe dates. No, she don't.
Everything she does she has a reasonfor her Oh, she's pregnant,
so she can't do the polygraph Yeah, right, the drugs, so she
(31:52):
can't do the polygraph. Why isshe in the hospital right now? It's
you ain't gonna be for flu.She hasn't told me, but I know
why. Why Probably for some typeof plea for to go for insanity or
you know, her state of mind. Yes, Kelly claimed to be pregnant
(32:14):
in the month leading up to herarrest. Several days following Jason's death,
Kelly told friends and family that shewas pregnant with his child, a claim
that would very quickly be refuted thatwas likely used to manipulate Ogden and Jason's
parents, who were still helping Kellyout financially. Kelly actually made a lot
(32:38):
of claims that month. On Apriltenth, Kelly called nine one one to
report that she had been mugged andassaulted. The very next day, Kelly
called nine one one again to reportthat she was raped. Four days later,
she poisoned Alicia so Yeah. Ina single week, Kelly claimed that
(33:04):
she was robbed and assaulted, thenclaimed in a separate incident that she was
raped, then tried to kill aformer lover, then checked herself into a
mental health facility, all while fakinga pregnancy. But if Colton Ogden and
I are correct. The Cochranes wereusing these mental health checkens as either alibies
(33:27):
or insanity please or probably both followingmurders, which takes us back to that
second baby Kelly allegedly murdered when shewas twenty four. According to Kelly,
this murder took place in the springof two thousand and seven. Well,
Kelly checked herself into a mental healthfacility in April of two thousand and seven.
(33:54):
And as for Gary Caldwell, well, he doesn't seem to exist.
In fact, neither Namous nor theCharlie Project have any records of any missing
men named Gary Caldwell. Ever,nor are there any reports in local newspaper
(34:14):
archives of a missing Gary Caldwell orany missing Gary's or any twenty four year
olds who disappeared from the area surroundingCalumet City in nineteen ninety eight or ninety
seven or ninety nine. But fi'velearned anything from Kelly's interviews, it's that
(34:39):
there's a little bit of truth inevery one of Kelly's lives. For example,
medical records show that Kelly and Jasonwere trying to get pregnant prior to
Jason's murder. They had been inand out of for lity clinics without any
(35:01):
success, and that in and ofitself is an interesting story for another time.
But if you want to keep lookingfor the truth in Kelly's lies,
just ask that Illinois trucker she's stabbedin the eyes, or Jason Bowden,
(35:21):
who she claims to have murdered inMinnesota. Two men who don't seem to
exist, but it turns out theyactually do. And when you reconcile who
they actually were from who Kelly saysthey were, you start to see a
(35:43):
pattern among the alleged thirty two murdersKelly handed over to police, and you
realize just how methodical and manipulative Kellycochrane actually is, and it's fucking terrified. H
This is a studio both and production. Just a quick warning before we start
the show. This episode features discussionof infanticide, child abuse, and molestation.
If these topics are triggering for you, I recommend skipping from around the
(00:30):
nineteen minute ten second mark until aroundthe twenty four minute twenty second mark.
What's been going on? What's thedeal with everything? Can you tell us
work? Well? I thought youguys came here to tell me what you
think's going on. That's kind ofhow this should work. I think there's
(00:58):
a big game going on. Wemean everything she does is a game,
Okay, Like right now, it'sbeen going on in her life, her
whole life, her entire life.Those me and my parents are just talking.
(01:19):
They've been dealing with her doing stufflike this since she was a teenager,
Okay, anything to help her out, to get out of trouble,
to whatever. So what exactly whyare you saying? I don't think she
(01:41):
does has there's a reason for it, at least in her mind, and
she doesn't do anything unless it's goingto benefit her some way. I think
he's talking about her being in thehospital right now. Several days after Kelly
tried to murder Alicia in the park, Kelly's brother, Colton, and his
(02:02):
girlfriend voluntarily met with police to discussJason, Chris Reagan, Kelly, and
their childhood. In her interviews,Kelly describes Colton as her best friend.
She sometimes paints their relationship as thatof mother and child, but it was
(02:23):
clear from the moment he entered theHobert police station that that feeling wasn't mutual.
Kelly hadn't even been arrested yet,and Colton was certain she was responsible
for Jason's death and at a minimum, involved in Chris Regan's disappearance. Colton,
who is eight years Kelly's junior,would prove to be a key witness
(02:46):
in the investigation into the Cochranes.He started working for Kelly and Jason's pool
business when he was just eleven ortwelve years old, and continued working with
them until they moved to the UpperPeninsula eleven years later. So he spent
almost every single day with the Cochransfor over a decade, and both Kelly
(03:07):
and Jason were incredibly talkative, withColton shockingly talkative. Actually, did Jason
talk to you about killing people?Yeah? You know, I've never done
anything of it. Because well hewas an oddball anyway. You know,
(03:29):
he would talk about how he coulddissolve bodies and different acids or chopping people
up like with well any of hisanything he had, swords, axes,
hatchets, you name it. Um. He called it going camping. He
(03:52):
wanted to go and rip off houses, but not just rip off a house.
He would go and you know,he said he'd have to kill everybody
so there's no witness. Or hetalked about how he could poison the whole
water supply. Yeah, specifically nohol on. Did he start talking to
(04:18):
you about wanting to kill people.I started really getting to know him when
I was probably about eleven ish,Um, and that started pretty close to
right away. That's right. Jason, a twenty five year old man,
(04:41):
was sharing his plans for murder withKelly's eleven year old brother. When you
were at the house with Jason,did he ever show you anything? Did
he ever show me you any barrels, any acids, any well, any
torture things. I was never upin Michigan while they lived there. I'm
saying here, I mean doing thepools. We had hydrochloric acid, we
(05:05):
had muatic acid. We use thosefor pools, but he was talking about
a different acid too. I thinkhe said sulfuric, and I thought he
said, you can just get itfrom batteries, from my car batteries.
And you know, he's he toldmy dad before about say, he was
(05:33):
making something in the basement, likehe was trying to make like a superbug,
like a like a virus or something. And my Dad's like, why
would you even tell anybody that?He's like, oh, bro. But
(05:54):
I mean when it comes to weapons, he had a huge click swords,
access back like the novelty type twoknives, bow and arrow, crossbow,
a couple of guns. I don'tknow what it is about the acid though
(06:20):
he mentioned that on several occasions.That's why it stands out because he really
did mention that one a lot.And then I thought it was ironic that
Kelly mentioned that when the incidents tookplace up there, she told him because
he wanted to use it, theacid to get rid of the body,
(06:42):
not to use it. So hereally had like a thing for the acid
or something. In multiple interviews andin calls in letters with her parents,
Kelly claims that Jason had wanted todissolve Chris Rege and hydrochloric acid, but
that she talked him out of it, and several other witnesses claimed that Jason
(07:08):
had spoken to them repeatedly about dissolvingbodies in various types of acid. Of
course, this is an addition toJason talking about feeding people to his pigs,
But like Colton, everyone shugged itoff as just Jason being a strange
guy. That is, of course, until he and Kelly were wanted for
(07:32):
murder. But it wasn't just casualconversation about hypothetical murders that the Cochranes included
Colton in, do you have yourtext message in between the two of you
throughout all this time? Or doyou delete it? I delete delete that
could She's brewed so many numbers anyway, Yeah, why should go through all
(07:56):
the numbers? Probably make it hardtrack? But she says, because you
know, her phones keep getting takenand she hasn't want to reuse them,
we're probably getting close to eight ninedifferent numbers at least, um the phones.
You say it's been through eight ornine phones, liking what time since
(08:16):
it happened? Since she started beingin question about it back in the October
eight or nine numbers. Oh yeah, she gave him the one phone,
remember that track phone or whatever?She said, take she said, take
this out of I don't want toShe said she had no phone. So
oh no, she said she hadno phone for actually I actually paid for
(08:39):
one and she went and picked itup from the Walmart up there so she
could have a phone. And thenI have one of her old phones,
which I of course tried to seeif anything was on there. But do
you still have it? Yeah?Would you turn that over to me?
Sure, that'd be great. Yeah. Do you only have one of her
old phones? Yeah? Okay,But wasn't that a phone? It was
(09:01):
a um, what's your phone?It was Kelly, he bought that was
that one? Was her phone?She said I could have it, she
don't want anymore, and he keptit. He also has a he told
Laura about a notebook that oh yes, she does want to see that notebook.
(09:22):
Yeah. Um, Kelly gave mea notebook that was Jason's, which
I can tell you is Jason's forsure because the writing, um, just
different plans for different things, youknow. He had a plan for fish
farm, um, different ideas tomake money kind of thing. And I
(09:43):
was thrown off because towards the back, I could be wrong. I thought
it was like a formula, butit could be a formula make sure whatever
for chloroform. Okay, yeah,that threw me off out of all this
stuff in the book. And thentwo three four pages something like that.
(10:05):
From the back, I see theword chloroform memory and it says something about
mixing and taking something off the bottom, and that'll be chloroform. Like okay,
Kelly said she has a bunch moreof those journals of his. Now,
(10:26):
as far as I can tell,that journal never turned up, or
if it did, it was redactedin its entirety from the case file sent
to me. But it's not theonly mention of journals kept by Jason,
it seems. In addition to beingan aspiring novelist, Jason was a pretty
(10:48):
prolific writer and note taker. Kellytold investigators that she had stacks of journals
written by Jason which were hidden somewherein her parents attic, but when a
search was performed, those journals couldn'tbe found. That's when Jason's parents told
investigators that Kelly kept important paperwork,passports, and note books in a safe
(11:13):
and that when she fled Hobart priorto her arrest. That safe was one
of only a few things she tookwith her and when police found that safe
in her car, it was completelyempty. And as for the eight or
nine phones and phone numbers Kelly wentthrough, well, that was just in
(11:37):
the thirteen months following the Cochrane's returnto Indiana. Interestingly, files indicate that
Kelly used the same phone number totext back and forth with Detective Ogden during
that entire time, but they alsoshow that she had several other phone numbers
in use throughout that period. Thefire also indicate that one of those phones
(12:01):
was registered in Tampa, Florida,where Kelly was also able to somehow obtain
an email address through a Tampa specificISSP, which begs the question where was
Kelly on her way to when shegot arrested in Kentucky and why And all
(12:28):
of the files I've been through andall my independent research, there's only one
connection between Kelly Cochrane and Tampa,Florida. The convicted pedophile and registered sex
offender who lived with the Cochranes inHobart prior to their move to the Upper
Peninsula. According to court filings andthe sex offender registry. He returned to
(12:52):
Tampa where he originally committed his sexcrimes just several days after Andrew Fugate was
murdered, and if that man wasever interviewed by police, that interview was
redacted from the Foyophiles as well,but based on my discussion with Laura Frizzo,
it seems like he was never evenon the police's radar, which makes
(13:16):
it even more interesting that investigators didseem to have an interest in whether the
Cochranes were capable of harming children.As I've mentioned previously, in addition to
(13:37):
living with a pedophile, Jason alsowrote about quack Quack being one and abducting
and killing at least one young teenageboy. He also talked to Colton about
breaking into homes and killing everyone inside, making a point to specify that included
children. And when investigators talked withColton, both their line of questioning and
(14:03):
his answers raised some red flags aboutthe Cochrane's activities regarding kids. Has there
ever been a time in your lifewith them growing up where something weird happened
with you with them where you thoughtthat something occurred? Jason and Kelly.
(14:24):
Then I thought something possibly occurred.Yeah are you talking to what I asked
Laura about? Yeah, yeah,definitely. Okay, So what I mean
Jason went camping and then that wassoutheast to hear Aways. Bad thing is
I don't remember where. I knowwe passed somewhere some town with a foreign
(14:48):
name, which I've been trying tofigure that out. It was Brazil or
Peru. Yeah, we passed oneof those going to wherever we were going,
and U I was probably I'm tryingto think if I've had my license.
I was roughly right around sixteen,but I lost my license for three
(15:13):
months too, So nine ten yearsago roughly. And there's a day that
I don't recall. I can tellyou like two or three pictures of that
name what you mean, And bypictures, I mean I remember like a
still frame and then a while later, like a still frame, and that's
(15:37):
it. And what do you seein the still frame? One I was
at a pond it appeared to bethe entrance to the campground, sitting in
a chair, fishing pool and everything. Another one I was in the truck.
We were outside of a bait shop. That's it. That's it.
(16:00):
Were there any problems while you werethere. I don't know how many days
were you there. We drove out, um, we got everything set up
to that night, and then thenext day I don't remember, and then
we left the following morning. Sohe told me about that like years ago,
(16:22):
and he's like, it was soweird, but nothing. I mean,
he thought it was weird. Hecouldn't remember, and you know,
he was smoking whatever and he smokedweed while you were there. Yeah,
and he remembered. Um. Imean he said it was weird, but
not until Kelly had said, youknow that there was um. She said
(16:47):
that she was told that there werenine bodies, nine victims, which I
did, you guys, not true? I know. I had him ask
Laura that because I mean, it'sa whole different ballgame if if the police
are telling her that or if she'stelling them that. And then when she
(17:14):
said that you guys said that,then he was like wait, you know
then that's when his mind was likethinking, was I did something happen?
You know? Because what are yousmoking? He got from Jason, so
he's you know, he smoked potplenty of times and you know, never
ever had a problem like that,So not until she said that was he
(17:38):
But before that, you know,he thought it was weird. I mean,
you don't remember. But whatever questionColton asked Laura isn't included in the
available case files, but there's afew things to note about that particular conversation.
Kelly has claimed to have been abusedas a child, claims she has
(18:03):
since walked back for reasons unclear.Kelly was a Girl Scout leader in her
late teens and early twenties. Andthen there's camping. Based on interviews with
Kelly, the Cochranes seemed to treatcamping the same way israel Keys treated camping.
Jason even referred to breaking into people'shomes and murdering them as camping,
(18:30):
and that something will dive deeper intoin a future episode. But whether the
police seemed to think the Cochranes druggedColton while camping to use him and their
camping trip as an alibi, orthey think they drugged him and then molested
him on that trip is unclear,but frankly, both seem highly plausible,
(18:53):
which brings us to Kelly's strange andconflicting relationship with children. As you may
recall, most of Kelly's contempt forAlicia seemed to be based on her perceived
bad parenting. Kelly mentioned over andover again that Alicia was out partying with
(19:15):
her when she should have been athome taking care of her kids. We
also know that on at least oneoccasion, when the Cochranes were engaging in
a threesome with Alicia, they weredoing it while babysitting Kelly's young nieces,
whom Kelly was incredibly close with,according to Kelly and her prison correspondence with
(19:36):
family, and it was in herdiscussion about Alicia that led Kelly to make
some shocking confessions about her first threemurders were behavior, Oh no, no,
you no, I don't believe it. I believe you have Sie,
(19:59):
my nieces and stuff. The happinessaround them, Yeah, but it's not
yours, it's theirs. It's notyour happiness. It's their happiness that you
get to join in. So inturn, it's like you're a part of
it, but you're really not.Have you ever thought about that way?
That's why you like to be aroundthem, and because of what you are,
(20:22):
that's why you've never had a child. That's not true. You didn't
you wouldn't allow that to happen,and you acquire doesn't fairy? No,
it does, it really does notmefical? Oh you are? You are?
(20:45):
That's funny. That's the exact response. I thought you would have?
How many times? How many?How many times? I'm not no,
I want a number because you knowthe exact number. How many times?
(21:11):
How many? All the way?Many? How many? How many?
All the way? Because that numberis not too many, too all the
way? Full term? What years? I'm seven to you? In part?
And what happened? It doesn't countas many numbers. You don't count
(21:33):
them as numbers? Why not?Why not? How can you not?
Ye know that saying I don't know? Like her? Folks there say you
don't Invitus really take you out?You felt that from the beginning. Okay,
(21:55):
I actually agree that part. Soyou don't you don't count it as
part of your numbers. What werethey steaks? No? What were they
race? Both boys? Who isthe father of the first? My ax?
(22:18):
Harry? Carry? What cold?Where's Gary now? Missing? Since
when? Since it was it's almosthearten missing? Where did he live?
Catan City? Cayenan City alone?What happened to Gary Smart? Missing?
(22:45):
That's not true. Nobody just goesmissing with you. He speaks shit out
of me, trying to run youover with the car. Where is he?
It's kind of well, I knowthat baby. Kelly claimed that she
(23:17):
carried two babies to term and thenkilled them, even citing the Bill Cosby
quote, I brought you into thisworld, I can take you out of
it. She also went on totell Ogden that she aborted more babies than
she can count, and that sheenjoyed conceiving and then aborting fetuses of the
(23:42):
babies she claims she did carry toterm. The second of those was presumably
Jason's, since Kelly claims she wastwenty four at the time and would have
been married to Jason for four yearsat that point. But with Kelly,
you never know. The first baby, she claimed she had at seventeen,
(24:03):
and was bothered by a twenty fouryear old man from Calumet City, Illinois
named Gary Caldwell. How many peoplehave you killed? We're doing this again?
Well, I mean it's right,right terror you know. Okay,
that's your notebook, that's correct.That okay? What was the age you
(24:26):
killed your first person? The oneI told you to look into from New
Beginnings and you had question and I'mnot rewarding or anything like that, but
you had asked about the year.I know how old I was, but
there was follow up therapy. I'mdid on the follow up therapy and actually
went to a different high school atthat time too. They have record of
(24:51):
what I did. Okay, whatdid you do? What do you mean
the first time? How does itbegin manipulation? If you can believe that,
so then what build and trust?This was the first one was seven
(25:19):
months, six months I was learningwho I was. Okay, you know
this is hard for me. Iknow you don't know they do they do.
(25:45):
I don't want to be a scienceproject. Okay, I'm not trying
to make you one. You knowthat, right, Yeah, I'm gonna
trying to make you one. Ilegitimately the first time went in for help
(26:07):
because I knew I've had these feelingsall my life. Legitimately tried to get
help. I did put myself thereby saying untrue things like my parents beat
me, my parents would beat myass and noo. Yeah, um.
(26:29):
I used love and manipulation for thefirst one. And who who is it?
I gave you his name? GaryHelp Well, the psychiatrist I was
(26:51):
seeing, I had to know Gary. How old was Gary at that time?
Twenty four? Where where did youkill Gary? It wasn't on my
house? Where do you run allthe details? Well, I mean we
(27:14):
had several days to do this,But I mean, if we're talking about
this one specifically, let's talk aboutit. Where is Gary? He and
a few others won't be found.Where did Gary live at the time?
Between Chios city and Gary, helived with his mom and I believe a
(27:38):
sister in law was he investigated?I believe so. But just as far
as missing, he actually were youwhen this happened? Almost that was almost
(27:59):
seventeen, but between the six monthsseven months span, it was sixteen seventeen.
Now the details for the exception ofeverything, as far as finding anything,
went to the psychiatrist. I toldthe psychiatrist everything, okay, Um,
(28:26):
they didn't care. They didn't believeme. Did she wrote it down?
Why would I lie about that?He did? Um? He was
in the military. Um he wasin the military. Yeah, not not
not army or anything. He didon the weekend. So it would be
(28:48):
a national guard probably national guard.It was week every other weekend or something.
And a couple of days a monthhe did security at one of the
yards or the end of machinery.Ship. Investigators were able to confirm that
(29:11):
Kelly was checked into a girl's homecalled New Beginnings in either nineteen ninety seven
or nineteen ninety nine, accounts Fairy, although her records from that stay,
including when exactly she was admitted andfor how long, are not available because
New Beginnings is no longer an operationand the mental health facility that took it
(29:34):
over didn't maintain their records. Butif it's true that she did check in
because of homicidal feelings and actual murderof Gary Caldwell, who will get into
in a minute, it would fallinto a pattern that has slowly been emerging
in my research on the Cochranes andtheir crimes. One day after Kelly tries
(30:00):
to kill Alicia, she checks herselfinto a mental health facility. Two days
after Jason shoots and kills Chris Regan, he checks himself into a mental health
facility. And now Kelly checked herselfinto a facility shortly after allegedly murdering Gary
(30:21):
Caldwell and his baby, who shecarried to term. In addition to those
confirmed visits. Kelly and Jason checkedthemselves into other mental health facilities at least
two and three other times, respectively, including a thirty day stay for Kelly
in Hobart beginning April twenty first oftwo thousand and seven, and a five
(30:44):
day stay for Jason in Rhinelander,Wisconsin, beginning June twenty fifth of twenty
fourteen. And as Colton explained inthe opening clip, everything Kelly does is
a game and all of her actionsare in service of herself. Kelly had
checked herself into a mental health facilitythe day before Colton's police interview, and
(31:07):
he discussed at length how Kelly hada history of using her mental health to
manipulate people and get away with badbehavior. In the beginning to talking about
how at the time of Chris's thing, Jason was in the hospital. That's
originally what she said, so there'sno way he could have done it.
(31:32):
Well, it turns out that wasa lie, complete lie, another coincidence.
No, maybe she just makes upthe dates. No, she don't.
Everything she does she has a reasonfor her Oh, she's pregnant,
so she can't do the polygraph Yeah, right, the drugs, so she
(31:52):
can't do the polygraph. Why isshe in the hospital right now? It's
you ain't gonna be for flu.She hasn't told me, but I know
why. Why Probably for some typeof plea for to go for insanity or
you know, her state of mind. Yes, Kelly claimed to be pregnant
(32:14):
in the month leading up to herarrest. Several days following Jason's death,
Kelly told friends and family that shewas pregnant with his child, a claim
that would very quickly be refuted thatwas likely used to manipulate Ogden and Jason's
parents, who were still helping Kellyout financially. Kelly actually made a lot
(32:38):
of claims that month. On Apriltenth, Kelly called nine one one to
report that she had been mugged andassaulted. The very next day, Kelly
called nine one one again to reportthat she was raped. Four days later,
she poisoned Alicia so Yeah. Ina single week, Kelly claimed that
(33:04):
she was robbed and assaulted, thenclaimed in a separate incident that she was
raped, then tried to kill aformer lover, then checked herself into a
mental health facility, all while fakinga pregnancy. But if Colton Ogden and
I are correct. The Cochranes wereusing these mental health checkens as either alibies
(33:27):
or insanity please or probably both followingmurders, which takes us back to that
second baby Kelly allegedly murdered when shewas twenty four. According to Kelly,
this murder took place in the springof two thousand and seven. Well,
Kelly checked herself into a mental healthfacility in April of two thousand and seven.
(33:54):
And as for Gary Caldwell, well, he doesn't seem to exist.
In fact, neither Namous nor theCharlie Project have any records of any missing
men named Gary Caldwell. Ever,nor are there any reports in local newspaper
(34:14):
archives of a missing Gary Caldwell orany missing Gary's or any twenty four year
olds who disappeared from the area surroundingCalumet City in nineteen ninety eight or ninety
seven or ninety nine. But fi'velearned anything from Kelly's interviews, it's that
(34:39):
there's a little bit of truth inevery one of Kelly's lives. For example,
medical records show that Kelly and Jasonwere trying to get pregnant prior to
Jason's murder. They had been inand out of for lity clinics without any
(35:01):
success, and that in and ofitself is an interesting story for another time.
But if you want to keep lookingfor the truth in Kelly's lies,
just ask that Illinois trucker she's stabbedin the eyes, or Jason Bowden,
(35:21):
who she claims to have murdered inMinnesota. Two men who don't seem to
exist, but it turns out theyactually do. And when you reconcile who
they actually were from who Kelly saysthey were, you start to see a
(35:43):
pattern among the alleged thirty two murdersKelly handed over to police, and you
realize just how methodical and manipulative Kellycochrane actually is, and it's fucking terrified. H
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com