12. Playing Games

Kelly's lists of 32 alleged victims lead investigators to find some interesting evidence in Illinois and Minnesota. And Josh begins making sense of Kelly's lists (and lies).
Next Episode: 21 June 2023

This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
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Research assistance by Becca Cline and Michelle Kaszuba.

Music by William Hellfire, Chris Zabriskie, Sergey Cheremisinov, Lee Rosevere, and Radical Face.

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
This is a studio, both andproduction. How many are you actually responsible
for? Do we have to doit all right now? We're not gonna
do it all right now. I'masking you one question. They're going to
calm my hope, we'll walk intoSally board. I never lied about the

(00:32):
number. What number number I gaveyou? What number? Twenty one?
That's Jason's right there. So Jasonhas twenty one on his own or Jason
has eleven on his own, Andyou're telling me I'm killed twenty one people.

(00:54):
Jason bam one Chris. Now Ithank kill Chris. I get that.
I don't count him. Okay,I know you don't count him.
And you don't count him for whatreason? Because you don't count him because
you didn't actually pull the trigger?Right, Okay, you do understand when
it comes to Chris that the actionsthat you take make you just as horrible.

(01:17):
Correct the truth. Don't set Aaronlie to me. I do.

(01:40):
According to Kelly, she and Jasonare responsible for the deaths of thirty two
people, eleven she's attributed to Jason, and twenty one she's claimed for herself.
End of all the dubious stories she'stold, this is one she's tended
to stick to throughout her interviews andtime in prison. Of course, like

(02:04):
all cochrane stories, from time totime she deviates from it. She told
both her mother and Colton that sheonly killed nine people, But despite her
persistence, I don't believe they killedthirty two people, or even that she
killed twenty one people. But Ido think there's truth in most of Kelly's

(02:25):
lies, and that includes this one. Kelly has submitted two lists to Jeremy
Ogden, a list of Jason's elevenalleged victims and a list of her twenty
one alleged victims. And as I'vementioned previously, her list is incomplete at

(02:47):
best and incoherent at worst, andeither way it's incredibly fabricated. Jason's is
the same. For example, ofJason's eleven alleged victims, Kelly's only certain
of two names, and then there'sthree names with question marks after them.

(03:09):
Yet on almost all eleven, goingas far back as two thousand and three,
Kelly can remember the exact date ofthe murder, which strikes me as
strange. She can remember exactly whenJason killed people, but not who he
killed. But if Kelly is anything. She's incredibly talented at playing games,

(03:34):
and the more you get to knowher, the clearer it becomes that both
of her lists are a game.To exemplify that, let's take a closer
look at the first murder Kelly talksabout in her interviews, the trucker in
Illinois whose eyes she's stabbed out,Chris and not Jason. You did tell

(04:03):
Jason, but we're not talking abouthim. Yeah, who you got my
rats? Him? Huh? Yougot my rat? Don't you go along
the way? Yeah about turner fourmiles down? Turning four miles down?
I don't know why Illinois? Yeah, what'd you do? Talking about a

(04:30):
sandwich? Greg? Yeah? Dida tornado? Warning slipper, you're gonna
take shelter? Can't what happened?I wasn't doing the one I was taking
shelter, And you're telling me Ididn't do it fast enough, because you're
telling me that you killed a manon the highway or along the highway in

(04:51):
Illinois, along your way to Kentucky. So you got your one last one
in because you knew that I wascoming to make it more interesting. I
know you don't stop using it.Then this is why you do it though,

(05:15):
to make it more interesting. Hey, okay, make it something to
go to, something to go to. What are we gonna do? Mhm,
you gotta tell me. I don'tknow what happened to Yeah, that's
not true. It's not true.You do now, don't stand not happening.

(05:38):
Oh, here we go. Youlike doing this? No, no
lies, No lies in the roomwith me. You get called out from
here on out all the way.Don't let you lie anymore. I don't
know what happened. Okay. Now, they're a lot to dissect here,

(06:01):
starting with the odd specificity of mileagethat Kelly mentions about two hundred four miles
down. If she's rounding, whynot two hundred five? And if she's
guessing, why not two hundred?Two hundred four miles is oddly specific for

(06:23):
someone remembering a random place she stoppedto take shelter well. Investigators looked into
Kelly's transactions during her trip from Merylvilleto Wingo, Kentucky, and it turns
out she stayed in a Motel sixin Mattoon, Illinois, and route she
also went to her storage facility toclear out her storage unit. The distance

(06:46):
from Jason's parents' house to her storagefacility to that Motel six exactly two hundred
four miles. It's almost like shereed and remembered her mileage. Oddly enough,
it's also exactly to the mile equidistantbetween Merylville and Wingo, two hundred

(07:12):
four miles each way, so itdoesn't seem like an entirely random stop over
at all. As we've previously discussed, it was reported that Kelly met a
trucker at this Motel six and stabbedhim in the eyes, leaving him for
dead on the side of the highway, but that's not entirely accurate. According

(07:33):
to Kelly, Kelly claims that shemet a truck driver in the parking lot
of the Motel six, slept withhim, stabbed him multiple times, including
but not limited to, in theeyes, then buried him in a shallow
grave nearby. She told police thatshe killed him because he looked like Chasten

(07:55):
Well. Ogden thought the claim wascredible enough that he drove down own to
the Motel six and Mattune to investigate. Just two days after Kelly's arrest and
three days after the incident allegedly tookplace on April thirtieth, Ogden met with
the clerk who checked Kelly into themotel. The clerk confirmed that when Kelly

(08:18):
checked in, she was accompanied bya mail truck driver. Because I only
have access to the interview notes andnot the interview itself, it's unclear how
the clerk knew the man was atruck driver. The motel clerk then took
Ogden to the room where Kelly stayed, which had since been cleaned. However,

(08:39):
the trash from the motel dumpster ithadn't been collected yet. Since Kelly's
stay and its contents would be incrediblymystifying, you would think it would be
incredibly challenging to rifle through a motel'sentire dumpster filled with trash and find the

(09:01):
trash from a specific guest. However, Kelly's trash was incredibly easy to find
because it was full of identifying items. In fact, the first item to
appear when they tore into the trashbag that was Kelly's was a copy of

(09:22):
both Jason's Social Security card and driver'slicense, and then Jason's vehicle registration.
It also contained Kelly's medical bracelet fromwhen she checked herself into the hospital for
an alleged assault and robbery. Almostthree weeks prior, Jeremy Ogden's business card,

(09:43):
the Lake County Coroner's business card,five prepaid debit cards, packaging for
women's underwear, packaging for women's hairdye, a dime bag with remnants of
cocaine, an appointment card for anearby tattoo parlor operator. Permits in Kelly's

(10:05):
name for both big rig trucks andcranes, a stack of Better back Yard
business cards, two half full packsof cigarettes, nine smoked cigarette butts,
multiple ropes and cords, and whatappears to be a stethoscope. Jason's Purdue

(10:26):
Calumet Student I D twenty five cyclobenzoprene pills, which were likely Jason's sciatica
medication, a prescription Kelly continued pickingup long after his death. An invoice
for Kelly's public storage unit, aWalmart receipt, an unopened box cutter,

(10:46):
empty packaging for a second box cutter, dozens of shredded documents and handwritten letters
in Kelly's handwriting, an envelope addressedto Kelly from Jason, but written in
Kelly's handwriting, and a typed letterto Kelly from Jason that reads as follows,

(11:09):
to my beautiful wife. I amsorry about the fight we had this
morning. I really did mean whatI told you. You do mean the
world to me, and I willdo anything for you. I know you
said I hurt you, but hedidn't love you like I do, and
no one could ever love you likeI do. I know you said you

(11:31):
didn't mean to hurt me by whurryingaround with them, but you did.
I do believe you will try tomake this right by me, but I
forgive you. I know you don'tsee right now what I did for you,
but you will one day. Chrishad to go. He wasn't in
love with you, He just wantedsome young girl to make him feel better.

(11:52):
I needed you to see what Idid to him because you needed to
learn what happens when you hurt melike you did. I could have made
him suffer like many others, butI didn't, and you know I didn't.
You saw what happens when you hurtme, and I thought I had
showed you before, but maybe youdidn't learn before because you are so stubborn

(12:13):
and hard headed. You only thinkof yourself and not what your actions do
to others. Know that I loveyou with all my heart and would do
anything to make you happy. Iwant us to move forward and continue to
be happy. I want to spendthe rest of my life with you.
I'm sorry that you are hurting,but not sorry about why you are hurt.
I told you why I did whatI did, and that is something

(12:37):
you will have to live with.I don't want to hurt you anymore,
so please don't make me get tothat point again. You know I can't
help myself when I get that angry, and know what happens when I am
that angry. I love you,beautiful, and hope you will forgive me.
We are forever bonded and I willforever love you. I hope you

(12:58):
meet me tonight as we had planned. Please don't stay mad at me.
Know that I know what's best foryou and for us. I love you
so. Almost every single document foundin Kelly's motel trash was either shredded or

(13:22):
at least torn several times, butnot this letter. It was in pristine
condition. The letter also seems toback Kelly's original story she was merely an
involuntary witness to Chris Regan's murder.Jason did everything, and he made her

(13:43):
watch the letter also implicates Jason andJason alone in other murders. But here's
the thing, I don't think Jasonwrote that letter. I've gone through a
significant amount of letters and other communicationsbetween and from the Cochranes, and this

(14:05):
letter is the only thing ever typedand printed by Jason, and that includes
his manuscript. Yes, his manuscriptis handwritten, and his writing is very
identifiable, both in handwriting and ingrammar and sentence structure. Jason could barely

(14:26):
cobble together a coherent sentence, andhe rarely, if ever, used punctuation.
And while this letter won't be winninga Pulitzer anytime soon, it's coherent,
it uses punctuation, and is probablygetting a C plus in grammar class.
Jason's general correspondence is lucky to passgrammar class. Additionally, the letter

(14:52):
uses language I've never seen Jason used, but I've seen Kelly use quite frequently.
For example, there are multiple textmessages where Kelly demands that Jason quit
treating her like a whore. Jasononly ever responds with please for respect and
monogamy. In fact, in onesuch exchange, he text Kelly, please

(15:15):
stop cheating on me. Pot roastwill be ready soon. They don't exactly
read like the text messages from anirate man who's about to go on a
murder spree. Most notably, though, Kelly eventually walked back her original claims
that she was an involuntary witness,even telling Laura Frizzo on camera that Chris

(15:37):
Regan's murder excited her. In additionto what was discovered in Kelly's trash,
we have to note what wasn't.As per Jason's parents, Kelly put their
identification, old letters, important documentation, and Jason's journals and her safe.
She then moved the contents of thesafe to her storage unit, and she

(15:58):
cleared that store junet out on herway to Illinois, and all of that
was recovered from the dumpster except Jason'sjournals, which still have not been recovered.
Instead of Jason's journals, which verylikely would implicate Kelly in certain crimes,

(16:19):
there's a typed letter from Jason toKelly with an almost perfect confession that
exculpates Kelly. If you ask me, Kelly sent Ogden straight to that motel.
She gave him a reason to gothe exact location and made sure it
was the very first murder he lookedinto, and she made sure that that

(16:41):
bag of garbage was easy to linkto her by filling it with identifying documents.
Now, as far as the truckdriver goes, there are no reports
of anyone going missing in that areaat that time, let owns specifically a
truck driver. It doesn't appear thatthe motel six had surveillance, and if

(17:06):
it did, it wasn't reviewed.But investigators did pull surveillance from a nearby
Walmart and sure enough, Kelly wasthere alone at eleven forty pm. And
I honestly don't know what I believehappened that night. The clerk confirmed Kelly

(17:27):
was there with a truck driver,and investigators found boxcutters and rope in her
motel room garbage, But it seemspretty unlikely that Kelly could move the man
from her motel room without anyone noticing. And like I said, there are
no reports of missing people who matchKelly's story. I even checked the Missing

(17:49):
truck Driver Alert Network, which isa phenomenal network of seventy eight thousand truckers
and their family members who post whenevera truck driver goes missing and route,
and there wasn't a single truck driverreported missing in April of twenty sixteen there
or on Nemis or on Charlie projector in the local news. But what's

(18:12):
most interesting and deeply reminiscent of Kelly'sphone being allegedly broken when she was using
Jason's phone to text Chris Regan inthe days before his murder is the length
that Kelly went to to get investigatorsto this fake exculpatory letter from Jason.
This trip wasn't a fact finding mission, it was a scavenger hunt. And

(18:37):
it's another example of the truth inKelly's lies. Did she sleep with a
truck driver in Illinois while on therun looks like it, But did she
gouge out his eyes and bury himin a shallow grave? Probably not so.
Between this and Gary Caldwell, Istarted to doubt why there anyone on

(19:00):
Kelly's list actually existed, let alonewas a murder victim. And then Colton
mentioned the man from Minnesota before theywent to Iron River. Was there are

(19:22):
another man involve dinner in life?Yes? Who? I don't know his
name? She said he was fromMinnesota. She drove up and met him
in Wisconsin. They stayed at ahotel had a great time. And I
know this because I was thrown offwhen she wanted to borrow my snowpants.

(19:42):
Some lie, we need snow pantsfor we don't have snow Well that's how
I found that out. She saidshe was going to meet him and she
had a good time, but thenshe said that he was too cleany.
He wanted her to get divorced andmove with him. Man all that she's

(20:04):
didn't want to put any part ofit. Then she said he started ry
pretty much turning into like mister stalker, you know, calling, texting,
constantly, leaving messages on everything Facebook. Did Jason find out about this eventually?
Yes, she said she told him. Is there any other minute her

(20:26):
life prior to it? Do youknow that guy's name? No? I
don't think I. Did she everhear from him again? She heard from
for a while, and then tomy knowledge, once he stopped that was
it. It wasn't like he stoppedtalking to her and then started again.

(20:47):
But I don't know his name,so I can't tell you. I mean,
truthfully, that problem has disappeared.Anything like that. No, holy
shit, I'm asking you to No. No, I know I remember her
saying that when she told Jason,and she told him about how he won't

(21:11):
leave her alone. That guy won'tstop calling and texting that she said.
Jason told her he'll get rid ofhim for her. Wow, And now
you should be able to find outwho he is through her Facebook. Um,

(21:33):
I would say, I would saywithin a year before they moved.
It would have been twelve to thirteen, because it had to have been in
the spring because the weather. That'show I actually, yeah, I know
North had more snow we if wehad any at all. It was like

(21:53):
a dusting underground. And that's whatshe was there. You know they're going
up to tell she even get whengot sleds and she putting us all on
Facebook. She was messaging him onFacebook. I don't think you've ever said
that. I don't. I've neverheard that guy's name, though you told

(22:15):
me about it, but I've neverheard that guy's name. I know she
told me the name before, butI don't have any idea. Before we
get into the man from Minnesota,Colton's description of the man may sound familiar
to you. Kelly said he wasclingy, He wanted her to divorce Jason

(22:37):
and move away with him. Hewas Stalkery he wouldn't leave her alone.
When Eric Ericsson testified at trial,he told the jury that Kelly described Chris
Regan as clingy, wanting her todivorce Jason and run away with him,
and eventually Stalkery those exact words,and a few weeks later, Jason shot

(23:00):
Chris Regan in the back of thehead. Well, there was a man
from Minnesota on Kelly's list of victims. Kelly's list included a man from Hastings,
Minnesota named either Jason Bowden or JasonSalmon Tico, two last names that

(23:21):
don't seem entirely easy to confuse,but you know, Kelly Kelly claims to
have met this Jason while playing videogames on Facebook, although Ogden wasn't able
to find any such person in herfriends list or messages, so it seemed
like another dead end. How didyou get to Minnesota? Really? I

(23:49):
told you already you were you wereintelligive? Yeah, it was absolutely yes,
from messages and Facebook and what Ican send a message out, Okay,
send a nationwide message out with informationand requesting information back. It's called

(24:15):
an s O three and it goesnationwide and then people respond to you and
then you decide whether or not thingsfit or not, and then you start
looking at other things to see ifthey fit. So you brought it up

(24:36):
so we can start there. Thatstarts there were still in fucking Indiana.
I'm just wondering. I don't seethat. I know you're supposed to be
telling the truth, but I seethe serious looks here. I get it.
Well, I don't know what youwant me to say to you.

(25:00):
I give you the answer, andyou you doubt it. I mean,
you've been with me long enough thatyou should know by now. I should,
Yeah, you should. You pullsome cheap shots, then I don't
know what to think. I pulleda cheap shot simply for the humor of
things throughout this with you, becauseit's necessary to lighten the mood sometimes.

(25:22):
I mean, we are, youknow, we get too intense about what
we're talking about, and then youget angry, or you do but you
don't show it, but it startsto bother you. And I do it
to light in the mood. Anda little joking every now and then never
hurt anybody, so do I.And maybe I'm not that funny, but

(25:47):
I still do it. You stilllaugh at it. That's right. I
still laugh. I laugh at everythingyou have to these days. Ogden's s
O three came back with a closematch match in Hastings, Minnesota, an
unsolved murder of a man named JasonRuder, and on June first of twenty

(26:08):
sixteen, the homicide detective investigating Ruder'smurder visited Kelly and Iron County Jail,
where she was still awaiting trial,and upon that visit, suddenly Kelly's story
changed. Jason Ruder was shot inthe back of the head in his front

(26:30):
yard on June twenty second of twentyfourteen, according to the mother of Ruter's
six year old son, both ofwhom Jason was living with at the time,
along with another son from a previousrelationship. Jason had just returned home
from taking his son out for icecream. His son went inside to play
video games, and almost immediately afterthe boy went inside, a car pulled

(26:55):
into the driveway. The car wasseen backing out several minutes later. Jason
was found dead outside of his son'sbedroom window. About an hour later,
when investigators met with Kelly, shechanged her story and told them that the
Jason she killed was from Saint CloudMinnesota, although her list, which she'd

(27:15):
handwritten more than two months prior,clearly stated hastings. When asked if she
could identify her Jason in a photo, she said yes, but when asked
if she was willing to review photosof Jason Rud, she declined, so
instead, investigators asked her to describethe Jason that she murdered. She said

(27:37):
that she engaged in an affair withher Jason, and that they met less
than half a dozen times between twentythirteen and twenty fourteen. She said that
he had two children and brown hairand blue eyes, a tattoo on his
shoulder, a full beard and mustache, and stood about five foot eleven.

(27:57):
She said she last saw him inearly twenty fourteen, when the two went
sledding. Jason Rud did have twochildren and dark brown hair, but he
stood about six foot three inches tall, had hazel eyes, and had tattoos
on his arms, chest, andback. Jason occasionally wore a mustache and

(28:18):
beard, but neither could ever beconsidered as full. After several hours of
chatting, Kelly finally agreed to lookat photos of Jason Ruder, and when
she did, she had no visiblereaction whatsoever and stated plainly that he was
not the Jason that she murdered.She then stated that she was done discussing

(28:41):
either Jason and recommended investigators talked tohomicide detectives in Tennessee if they wanted to
pursue any of her other crimes.In his report on the interview, the
Minnesota detective wrote that the information Kellyprovided regarding her friend Jason did not appear
to be consistent with the Hastings,Minnesota victim. The last name and physical

(29:03):
description were not consistent. However,it is difficult to attach any credibility to
the information provided by Cochrane. Sheappears to want to take responsibility for crimes,
but suggests that her husband actually committedthem. She presents open ended responses
and will not give a direct responseto questions. When asked about further details,

(29:29):
Cochrane refuses to answer questions. Becausethe investigation into Ruters murders active and
ongoing, many key details haven't beenreleased to the public, but in the
six years since his murder, therehave been no credible new leads, and

(29:52):
it is incredibly interesting that just monthsafter Kelly last meets her Jason on their
sledding trip after Jason Cochrane says he'sgoing to make him disappear. Jason Ruder
in Hastings is murdered, and thenseveral weeks later, Kelly starts seeing Chris
Regan. There's also Kelly's camping tripin Ottawa National Forest that will get more

(30:15):
into in a future episode, butKelly said that while there she buried some
trophies related to one of her murders. The Cochranes took that camping trip just
a few days after Jason Ruder wasmurdered. It should also be noted that
Chris Regan, Andrew Fugate, andJason Ruder were all shot point blank in

(30:37):
the back of the head with thirtyeight caliber guns and off brand ammunition.
And there was something else that Kellytold investigators that day, something that rang
a bell for me. She saidthat the Jason that she murdered drove a
red Older Model upon yac Or Crown, Victoria, and I knew that I'd

(31:03):
seen that written somewhere else before,and after some digging, sure enough,
there it was. On Kelly's listof Jason's victims. Kelly wrote that one
of Jason's first victims was a middleaged man named Matt, who was over
six feet tall and had dark brownhair. She claimed that Jason murdered him

(31:26):
on June nineteenth of two thousand andthree at the King's Motel in Fulton,
Tennessee, and beneath his name,she wrote that Matt drove an older model
read Crown Victoria for starters. Ared Crown Victoria is not a super common
car. Secondly, the man she'sdescribing as Matt sounds a lot like Jason

(31:49):
Ruder. And Finally, there aren'tany motels or hotels in Fulton, Tennessee,
let alone a King's Motel. HellFulton, Tennessee is barely a dot
on a map with a post officeand a church. But there is a
King's Way Motel in Fulton, Kentucky, just thirteen miles southwest of Wingo,

(32:19):
Kentucky, where Jason's cousin lived,where Kelly was arrested, and where the
Cochranes visited many times prior to Kelly'sarrest. Kelly's lists can't be taken at
face value, but they also can'tbe disregarded entirely. There are truths in

(32:40):
each of the lies Kelly has usedthem to intentionally mislead by changing details,
conflating incidences, and embellishing her crimes. Kelly told her brother and mother that
she was responsible for nine victims.She told Ogden her two babies weren't included

(33:06):
in her total kill count. Jason'slist is eleven victims. Kelly has eleven
butterfly tattoos. So maybe the truthlies somewhere in a mix of all of
these details. The nine victims Kellyclaims to Colton and her mom, plus

(33:28):
the two babies she doesn't claim iseleven. Kelly appears to want to take
responsibility for crimes, but suggests thather husband actually committed them, and according
to Kelly, Jason killed eleven people, and Kelly has alluded to the fact
that each butterfly tattoo she has representsone of her victims. Well, she

(33:53):
has eleven butterfly tattoos, not twentyone. It's all a game to Kelly.
And with that in mind, Iwas able to start re examining the
lists and connecting some dots, andI found some very credible leads.