June 28, 2023 • 41 mins
An exploration into Kelly Cochran's practice of avoidance, her list of trophies, and consistencies in her wildly varying stories, leads to some pretty solid conclusions about Kelly and Jason.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.pactpodcast.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience or to support the show: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark.
Research assistance by Becca Cline.
Music by William Hellfire, Sergey Cheremisinov, Lee Rosevere, and Radical Face.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.pactpodcast.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience or to support the show: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark.
Research assistance by Becca Cline.
Music by William Hellfire, Sergey Cheremisinov, Lee Rosevere, and Radical Face.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
This is a studio both and production. If you'd like to support this show
and get ad free episodes for aslittle as two dollars a month, go
to patreon dot com slash studio bothand thirty three and who oh oh,
(00:32):
I thought he was thirty six.I thought you were talking about females.
No females ever killed at many people? Yes, oh, yes, right
here. You never looked it up. I know you have females killed that
many in the eighteen hundreds. Youjust don't believe it's true, right,
(00:56):
huh No, let's see right here, seventeen seventy five victims unknown, seventeen
ninety three victims unknown, thirty onevictims Jane toppin eighteen fifty seven poison,
(01:17):
m what was she? God,damn this fucking thing poison. You're right,
right, I think we can allagree that Kelly cochrane is unendingly frustrating.
(01:40):
She lies, she manipulates, sheplays games all across a broad spectrum
from quite well to laughably bad,and the end result is uncertainty at best
and cognitive dissonance at worst. AndI'm not ensure whether assuming that's intentional on
(02:01):
her part is generous or astute,but I do think it's fair to presume
that she and Jason did not killthirty two people or even twenty one.
But they did kill more than justChris Regan, and that likely all of
(02:21):
Kelly's lies, games, and manipulationsserved two purposes. One, Kelly,
like Israel Keys, has a fascinationwith serial killers. She spoke frequently about
being an outlier when it came toother female serial killers. According to Kelly,
(02:42):
she didn't poison her victims, shedidn't target children, and perhaps most
importantly, she had a higher bodycount than most female serial killers, or
so she thought. Kelly wanted peopleto believe that she was the best and
most prolific email serial killer. Shetalked at length about writing a paper on
(03:04):
John Wayne Gacy and how her goalbecame to rack up a higher body count
than Gasey himself. Of course,even conflating Jason's and her exaggerated victim counts
still has her falling short by one. So even in her grandest of delusions,
Kelly is a failure. Two.Kelly's lies, games, and manipulations
(03:30):
were merely distraction tactics, tactics tokeep investigators away from the truth and Like
I've said, there is a littlebit of truth in each of Kelly's lies,
and one key to discerning Kelly's truthsis to look for the things she
doesn't want to discuss, the thingsshe's let slip then refuse to talk about
(03:53):
again. Like with keys, whenKelly is confronted by infra nation she doesn't
want investigators to have she gets angry, indignant, avoidant. Take for example,
the Minnesota Jason, where are thetrophies? For real? Maybe that's
(04:15):
another day, another day. Hey, Like I said, if you can
honor your word and let me havehim one more time, like you said,
minus the knife, maybe you canlet me just touch him. I
would do that. Then we'll haveto get there anyway, because you can
meet those Let me ask you someYes, other bodies? Yes? Where
(04:42):
are the other bodies? Indiana,Michigan, Tennessee. I happened in Minnesota?
Why are you asking about Minnesota?I want you to explain. Why
(05:02):
are you asking now? I meanthat's wow. Do you explain a little
curveball there? I didn't think soI had Okay, I had one friend
(05:23):
in Minnesota. Kay, what happenedin Minnesota? You're there? Yeah?
Um, just take it thrown offa little bit. Um, you didn't
(05:50):
like that. I just had afriend there, you know, and you
know and I know that is morethan that. Hence the picture. It's
the picture. Yeah, Is thatwhat worried you? No? I don't
really get worried. Okay, Sois that why? I like things to
(06:15):
go and order in my way?But it didn't go in your way?
And when it didn't go your way, then that's why you decided to take
off. No. Actually, Ihave no clue when I took off.
I think I was really just visitingFamily'll you're trying you were trying to take
my hobby away, Okay, tryingto take your hobby away. Yes,
(06:40):
okay, that's the only sense ofenjoyment I have in life. You have
no clue. Well, and that'sgone your hobby. It's fucked dangerous.
Yes, who was doing drugs?It is? It is. I don't
do trug to some I've ever seenin my life. I said, you
were the most recreational drug user I'veever seen in my life, even in
(07:02):
prison. Shut off. I'm serious. I'm not going to allow them to
No, I'm a fucking medication thatyou don't truly need because you're self diagnosing
yourself. No, I'm not talkingabout that. That's cute. I took
through the psychiatrist to talk. Sherealizes that you memorize the whole fucking book,
(07:26):
ban and forth. Yeah, thisis a jailhouse call between Ogden and
Kelly, over a month after Kellymet with Ogden and hasting Minnesota investigator Jason
Olsen. The majority of the callis focusing on two bags of trophies that
(07:46):
Kelly alleges she has a hidden awayand a deal she's trying to make with
Ogden and Frizzo about those trophies.If they promised to let her go through
the bags and spend time with thetrinkets inside of them, she'll lead them
to the bags. And we'll getfurther into that in a minute. But
(08:07):
you can tell. When Ogden changesthe topic of discussion to Jason from Minnesota,
Kelly gets flustered, and when Ogdenpresses on, she plays dumb.
She tries to change the conversation again. So, Minnesota, what happens?
(08:33):
Why does that matter? Today?Validate something for me? Would you an
accident? Okay? What happens?Wasn't he a mechanic? Dope? Hm,
thought it was a mechanic. Nope, you don't need that. But
(09:03):
I show the picture. I know, um what I do need. They'll
change the subject now because that's Ican't believe you're asking about that. I
forgot about it because that's out ofturned. It's not no, it is
okay, Well it's not for me. So can you validate something for me
(09:24):
at all? One thing? That'sall I ask. I ask you to
validate that one deal. What doyou want about it? I want the
details and it doesn't. All Iwant him is briefly, I want you
to take two minutes, give mea two minute rundown, and then you
(09:45):
and I will talk about it inperson more later. I didn't want to
talk about him. We don't havea choice. We all have choices.
What's his name? I don't know? All bullshit? You know his name
(10:11):
Jason Jason what? But then no, it isn't that's what it was?
That name, it was Jason JasonWhat. I don't know his last name?
Bullshit? You know there was twothough, Well, what's the other
(10:37):
one's last name? Then? How'sthat semenic? What semitic? Semenico or
something like that? I don't knowhow to say it? Okay? And
what's the other one? You werejust asking about one? Come on,
now, No, you didn't giveme the right one, so I gave
(11:00):
you one. What's the last nameof the guy? You don't need a
photograph of Olsen? Bullshit? Comeon, you want to yank my chain?
Really, you're gonna yank my chainfrom jail all the way there?
This is a fancy jail compared towhat I've been in. Yeah, is
(11:24):
his name is Jason? And no, it wasn't just because I have a
thing for Jason's Okay, I didn'tsay it was. Did I know?
Did you have my messages? Youknow? Do you know you have my
text messages? Okay, so letme ask you something. What was his
last name? I honestly don't remember. Oh, bullshit, No, I
(11:48):
don't. Okay. How did hedie? He wasn't supposed to. How
did he die? I don't know? Oh, God, give me a
break. Can we do this anothertime? Give me something? Would you?
How did he die? I giveyou Jason? This is what Kelly
(12:15):
does. She oscillates between trying toimpress people with her kill count and intelligence
and trying to hide the actual truthbecause unlike Keys, Kelly loves and will
do anything for attention, but verymuch like Keys, Kelly knows that her
(12:37):
secrets have currency. So you tellme the people that you killed today,
but you don't give me the exactlocations of where you put their body because
it will you will be useful later. Is that it you've seen that?
(13:03):
You know? That's truth? Well, I know that you can take me
to things. There's no doubt youcan take people to things. Actually,
you've never taken me to anything.Yeah, what did you take me to?
Jason's shouts? Only close though,because like you said that the first
(13:24):
time you said that, the firsttime you said that, it's the truth.
You've done it at my direction.You've done it at conversations with me,
but you've always pointed out that likejust like you did with Chris Reagan,
you demanded to talk to me onthe phone that morning through your lawyer.
No here, through your lawyer.You had your lawyer come out and
(13:46):
say that you would do what theywanted, you wanted them to do.
However, you wanted to talk tome on the phone. You and I
had a good conversation on the phone. I asked you to play well with
others, and you took them tothe location of Chris Reagan and then you
know, okay, with others.I know that, But so you do
that right, And you pointed outto me that I said, what are
we going to do today? Andyou said, we aren't going to do
(14:09):
anything. I'm going to do something. Yes, Oh, because you want
to make sure that I understand thatit's not me that did anything, that
it's you that did it. No, But then when I stand here in
front of you, you tell meyou did it for me or because of
you. Okay, because it's sincerity, But you also know he meant a
lot to me, okay, andother people won't have to do that.
(14:33):
Other people just make him a numberto other people. He is just a
number, and you know that.Do you think anybody's going to give a
shit that I hadn't feelings? Well, I mean in the end, I
mean, you allowed him to layout in the woods for all those times,
and that's the truth. You allowedhim to lay out there, and
you could have done things differently.I'm not lying to you, and I'm
(14:54):
not trying to be mean to you. I haven't ever have. I Well,
Tabie, that wasn't a touchet.I mean that was just the truth
to him by every day nobody.Jason didn't even about my husband didn't.
Boy, that's funny Jason and thenmy husband. No, I say that
(15:20):
because there's multiple Jason's. Kelly hasand continues to use her secrets or alleged
secrets to manipulate investigators into giving herwhat she wants. Currently, she's trying
to negotiate for a relocation to Californiafor reasons unclear, and she's willing to
(15:43):
give the name and location of asingle victim for this relocation, but investigators
want all of her victims. She'salso used actual and alleged locations of evidence
to take field trips while in carsrated and as far as I can tell,
only one of about seven field tripshas yielded actual evidence Chris Reagan's skull,
(16:10):
glasses and a single bullet and thefour steps used to remove that bullet
from his skull from both Pentoga Trailand then the Cochrane's home on Lawrence Street.
But Kelly's also taken Ogden to RobinsonLake Park, where she's claimed two
of Jason's victims can be found,and yet none were found. Deep River
(16:37):
Park where she claims between two andthree of hers and Jason's victims can be
found, and again none were found. Lafayette, Indiana, where she claims
two of Jason's victims can be found, and yes, you guessed it,
none were found. The Anna Dooneswhere she claims there's an additional two to
(17:03):
three victims, but none could berecovered. And finally Ottawa National Forest in
the Upper Peninsula, where she claimsshe buried one of her two trophy bags,
and like I said before, she'seven trying to negotiate something for that
information. She wants to touch andspend time with the various items she's stolen
(17:32):
from her victims, so she's willingto give the locations of the two bags
if Ogden can make arrangements for herto spend time with their contents. But
keeping with Kelly's contradicting stories, eventhose two bags seem to magically move around.
Kelly's been pretty devout about one ofthe bags being somewhere in her parents'
(17:56):
house, which has been searched twicewithout any bags full of trinkets or trophies
being recovered. The second bag,she now claims is buried in Ottawa National
Forest, but she's previously claimed itwas buried over forty five miles away near
(18:17):
Chris Reagan's body, and those claimsprovided her with a second field trip to
the Pintoga Trail. Are the trinketsCrown Royal bag that there is a vacuum
field stag around that around the CrownRoyal Bay? Yeah? So? And
(18:38):
how far is that bag from wherethe remains were jumped? Not far at
all, that's not part of Anddid you pick a specific spot to bury
these trinkets or somewhere I remember?What's that somewhere I would remember? And
(18:59):
what what makes you remember it?What was it that made you remember it?
I had actually been down all ofthe To me, that the back
road, I've been down all theback road and the airing it to drive
around and just enjoying the scenery.I'm going a joint here and there being
(19:22):
by myself. Why why wouldn't youhave put you know, these things down
one of the side roads? Tome, that's that was a side road.
I know it was a busy road, but not compared to what we're
used to. But we need thatto help good closure for of us.
(19:45):
There's a black of people missing theirfamily or they could their parents or whatever
their situation is. I agree,and that's that's so sad to me,
just like Chris Reagan. I Imean, this has never been if it
would have never come to light likeyou know it is now, and his
(20:08):
family would never know. And theworst part is, you know, the
rumors and everything else that oh hetook off or he you know. Can
you imagine all these other families thatare wondering about their family member, you
know, right? Why? Iknow? So are you do? I
(20:32):
do know that Chris because detective wastrying to tell me he moved, and
he would have been moving for awhile after he was shot. I have
never seen anything like this before mylife. But he died instantly when he
got shot. It was instant.Now, after all of these failed field
(20:57):
trips, Kelly has basically cried wolfenough that she's not getting any more.
Ogden's even told her as much.But she's still talking about these trinkets.
And the thing is, there's aprecedence for Kelly keeping trophies. After the
(21:18):
Cochranes murdered Chris Regan, Kelly tooka rabbit's foot from his car and hid
it under her front porch, andduring the first search of sixty six Lawrence
Street, Frizzo found that rabbit's foot, but she didn't disclose it in the
list of items recovered and seized duringthe search, which turned out to be
(21:44):
incredibly prescient and brilliant, because,as you'll remember that following the search,
the Cochranes fled Michigan pretty hastily.They were gone within twenty four hours,
leaving behind almost all of their belongings, including all of Jason's marijuana plants,
(22:07):
most of their financial paperwork, andeven the forceps that contained the only DNA
evidence linking the Cochranes to Chris Regan'sdeath. But neighbors reported that in the
hours before their departure, Kelly wasunder her front porch with a flashlight,
frantically searching for something. And Isuppose there's two possible reasons for this frantic
(22:32):
search. One she wanted to getrid of the evidence, or two she
wanted to keep that trophy. Buthere's the thing. If it's really about
getting rid of evidence, why didshe leave behind the forceps four SEPs that
had actually been inside of Chris Regan'shead, which the Cochranes left sitting on
(22:59):
their kitchen counter for all the worldto see. It seems to me that
if you're hastily trying to clear yourhouse of evidence before fleeing the state,
that's the evidence you're going to grab, not the rabbit's foot that's hidden under
your porch. And it seems therabbit's foot isn't the first or only trophy
(23:26):
Kelly's taken. Kelly has been prettyconsistent when it comes to listing exactly what
she's taken from hers and or Jason'svictims over the years. A mini filet
knife on a string, a necklace, a small Swiss army knife across a
(23:48):
watch, a silver banded ring,a money clip with initials on it,
a gold chain necklace, a pinwith an M and fire or flames engraved
on it, and a locket withthe initials l L engraved. At first
(24:14):
mentioned this came from one of Jason'svictims, who he allegedly killed on June
fifth of twenty eleven in Deep RiverPark with both a knife and a hatchet,
but in a later conversation, Kellyclaims it actually belonged to one of
her victims, James Walker. Forsomeone who's so great at remembering numbers,
(24:34):
Kelly struggles with other details. Andanother key to sorting out her truths from
her lies is her consistency or lackthereof, from interview to interview, and
these trophies have mostly stayed consistent inmultiple interviews over two years' worth of ever
changing stories, and investigators have lookedinto these items. A Hobert detective was
(25:02):
able to pull up a list ofitems Kelly had pawned in Lake County,
Indiana, between January of twenty fourteenand February of twenty sixteen. I'm not
sure why the scope of this searchwas so limited, and it appears to
be the only search of pawn recordsthey've done. The detective found that in
(25:22):
that time period, Kelly had pawnedthe following two quarters from nineteen sixty four,
which she pawned on December eleventh oftwenty fifteen. One fourteen carrot gold
ring with a diamond and crusted band, which she pawned on December sixth of
twenty fifteen. One pair of fourteencarrot yellow gold hoop earrings which she pawned
(25:47):
on December fourth of twenty fifteen.A generator which she pawned on October fourth
of twenty fifteen, and a slightlysmaller fourteen parrot gold ring which she pawned
on April seventh of twenty fifteen.So clearly none of the allegedly stolen items
(26:10):
that she listed had been pawned inor near Maryville in her brief time there
between fleeing Michigan and being arrested,and a payment plan and overdue balances for
the payment plan for the pawn jewelrywas later recovered during a search of Jason's
parents house. As for the listof trophies she alleges she took from the
(26:30):
victims, only a small Swiss armyknife has ever been recovered from her car
at the time of her arrest,and there's no evidence that it came from
any of her victims. So ifthese items truly do exist, according to
Kelly, they're likely still hidden awaysomewhere in Ottawa National Forest or along Pintoga
(26:56):
Trail, or somewhere in Kelly's parents'house, or Kelly found a way to
depart with them before anyone even knewthey existed. In late February of twenty
fifteen, just two weeks before theCochranes fled Michigan, Kelly started posting to
Iron River flea market pages on Facebook. She claimed that a friend of hers
(27:22):
was moving to Tennessee and she washelping her get rid of stuff. Among
the items for sale were shovels,tarps, and a sort of jewelry.
(27:45):
When it comes to discerning Kelly's liesfrom Kelly's truths, I've found there's three
things to look for. One avoidance, two consistency, and three deferred accountability.
While she loves to embellish and lieabout what she claims she's done,
(28:11):
when it comes to what she's actuallydone crimes she's actually committed, Kelly tries
to defer accountability to others, namelyJason. As you'll remember, Kelly took
methodical and premeditated steps to ensure thatall evidence in the murder of Chris Regan
(28:33):
pointed directly and solely at Jason,and for years Kelly created a narrative with
friends, family, lovers, andeven co workers that Jason abused her,
but by all relevant accounts, itwas actually the other way around, and
(28:53):
Kelly even kind of admits this inher April thirtieth interview with Ogden following her
around. What caused his mental issues? Right? Just you? Yeah,
(29:15):
they don't care you know, socausing his mental issues? Oh yeah,
you're capable of causing his mental issues. There's no doubt. Then you did
do exactly what I said you did, Then you do it. Kelly tells
Ogden that she caused Jason's mental healthissues, which may be true to some
(29:38):
extent, but I believe she believesit to be entirely true. In fact,
Kelly and Jeremy spoke quite a bitabout how Kelly used her psychology degree
and vast knowledge of all things DSMto manipulate people, and even in Jason's
health records, it's indicated almost allof his mental health check ins were motivated
(30:03):
in some sense by Kelly. Kellywas constantly diagnosing Jason, even in their
text messages. In one exchange,after Kelly disappeared for several days, she
tells Jason that he's being paranoid,which is just symptomatic of his schizophrenia,
(30:23):
and he believes her, which issad considering the most severe mental health disorder
Jason was actually diagnosed with was bipolardisorder, but Kelly convinced him he was
schizophrenic, she knew exactly how towork Jason. Circling back to that interview
(30:48):
though, the one on April thirtieth, where Kelly admits to being responsible for
Jason's mental health issues. Of Kelly'sdozens of recorded interviews and phone calls,
that one is the most telling becauseshe's high as a kite on mess.
(31:10):
Prior to and since that interview,she's always claimed that Jason killed eleven people
and that she wasn't present for anyof his murders except Chris Reagan. But
in that interview, just briefly,Kelly wavers, so you're following me out
(31:30):
that Jason never heard anymore Jason murders, and no one else And my other
person who's that I haven't see wherepark so Bo seems your wife that herk
(31:53):
Okay? How how do you threepeople go to see an eager art explain
it and no one knows nothing aboutit? Tough? Just great? I
don't know how many? How manyor a deep river parts? I don't
(32:17):
know. You're the one who's goingback and forth. Now, thanks for
different? Now, why why arethey different? Because I'm here I know
that, But why are they different? Why is the dynamic different between you
and I? How much work?Yeah? Put it? Well, I
(32:40):
know, I read your taxes.I worked hard. What changes things between
you and I? Look in youreyes? Like? What? What's the
look in my eyes? To havemore surprise than anything? I'm not surprised
(33:01):
you think this surprises me. I'mnot sure for data, not at all
all. I knew this from thebeginning, thank you. Yeah, yeah,
absolutely I did. You did alot of things throughout all of this
to try to throw me off ormake me think that you're crazy or whatever.
(33:23):
But oh gotta be crazy. Ohyou're not crazy. Oh no,
you're not. Is that what you'rewill for in this insanity? Yeah?
I can't do that. Person that'scrazy, don't right now? They're crazy?
(33:43):
That's right there, you go.That's pretty good. Somebody else would
have to love me, right thatkeeps yea? Yeah, yeah, I'm
sure. But see the thing ofit is is you read the diagnostic book
and then you go in there andyou tell them the things that they need
to hear so that they say thethings to you didn't want them to say.
(34:04):
However, you're the most manipulative personin the whole wide world. Yes,
sorry, The Bible, Jason onlykilled two people, Chris Regan and
someone else. And every time thisstatement has been brought up since, Kelly
(34:27):
gets flustered, angry, or avoidant, and then she talks about Jason killing
lots of people, dissolving them anacid or feeding them to pigs, or
she talks about Jason abusing her andmaking her do things she didn't want to
do. She always makes sure toseparate herself from his crimes. Even though
(34:51):
she's making up stories about her ownmurders, she makes a point to keep
herself separate from Jason's eleven. Herbody count changes constantly to eight, nine,
eleven, twenty twenty one zero,but Jason's is always eleven. And
even though she can sit down andwrite a fairly detailed list, including dates
(35:15):
and locations of his murders, shepersists that she wasn't there and she wasn't
involved, which is what makes thiscall with Frizzo so funny. As you
know, Jason that stopped just onewhat I had hit, the trophies that
(35:35):
he had kept. I put himin a vacuum sealed bag. So Kelly
had nothing to do with Jason's crimes, but she somehow ended up with his
trophies like they were souvenirs from sometrip he took without her. Kelly's whole
(35:55):
m o is and has always beento make Jason accountable for her crimes.
He was her patsy. She knewhow to play the victim, she knew
how to manipulate people, She knewhow to manipulate Jason, and she took
great steps to leave a trail ofevidence pointing at him. Kelly may be
(36:22):
trying to compete with John Wayne Gacy, and she's most definitely trying to impress
and distract by making up various murdersand kill counts. But she's also trying
to make it very clear that Jasonand Jason alone killed eleven people, eleven,
(36:45):
the same number of butterfly tattoos Kellyhas. Kelly's list of trophies includes
ten items, well plus the rabbit'sfoot she took from Chris Reagan. If
if what you if even a portionof what you've told me is true,
(37:07):
okay, because I don't, Idon't take everything you've said to me it's
true. And I know that you'vemade up a lot of shit. Okay,
you have things that will help otherswith their situations to do with their
loved ones. And you know,I'm not really concerned about helping people.
(37:30):
I know that, But but thereare some times that you actually think about
those situations and believe you have asmall bit of belief that the right thing
needs to be done. Just likewith Chris in other situations, I had
to do that. I know that. But there are other situations that you're
going to be in or that youwere in, that are along these same
(37:52):
lines, right right right or not? I mean, have you you've said
here and you've told me that thereare multiple bodies in Indiana? Is that
true or is that a lie?It's true, Okay, and those people
that are Indiana and Indiana who killedthem? You believe it's me I'm asking
you, okay, but I cangive you everything you need for it.
(38:15):
Okay, that's fine. Look,I'm not asking you to tell me that
you've done all of this. Okay. Here's the thing. I never wanted
that. But what I wanted iswhat I asked you for. What you
know what I asked? Your part? An answer? Now? What what
(38:37):
I asked you to do for me? For Indiana? Okay? You have
to you have to you have tokid me things. That's the way it
is. I've already spoken to theprosecutor. I did exactly what you asked
me to do, and you seethat I get frustrated when I talk about
(38:58):
it in general. Okay, Imean you probably consens it in me and
it does frustrate me. But ifthat's what you want, then my beliefs
on this earth are that it's betterthat I go my route and I do
it my way than you do ityour way. But ultimately it's going to
come down to you. If youcan't, I will. Okay. So
(39:21):
I don't want that. I don'twant that. I don't want that.
I don't want you to hurt yourself. I don't want you to hurt at
all. Okay, they don't.This is not meant to inflict pain on
you. This is not meant tocause you hardship. It's meant to make
people safe. That's all. Thisepisode was written, produced, and researched
(39:57):
by me your host, Josh Allmark, with research assistants from Becca Klein.
Thank you to True Crime Bullshit's newestPatreon supporters, Jake d Alana, Kay,
Jillian M. Becky, b KerryH. Hilary j and Sarah Pe.
This episode featured music by William Hellfire, Sergei Cheramisanov, Lee Rosevier,
(40:22):
and Radical Face
This is a studio both and production. If you'd like to support this show
and get ad free episodes for aslittle as two dollars a month, go
to patreon dot com slash studio bothand thirty three and who oh oh,
(00:32):
I thought he was thirty six.I thought you were talking about females.
No females ever killed at many people? Yes, oh, yes, right
here. You never looked it up. I know you have females killed that
many in the eighteen hundreds. Youjust don't believe it's true, right,
(00:56):
huh No, let's see right here, seventeen seventy five victims unknown, seventeen
ninety three victims unknown, thirty onevictims Jane toppin eighteen fifty seven poison,
(01:17):
m what was she? God,damn this fucking thing poison. You're right,
right, I think we can allagree that Kelly cochrane is unendingly frustrating.
(01:40):
She lies, she manipulates, sheplays games all across a broad spectrum
from quite well to laughably bad,and the end result is uncertainty at best
and cognitive dissonance at worst. AndI'm not ensure whether assuming that's intentional on
(02:01):
her part is generous or astute,but I do think it's fair to presume
that she and Jason did not killthirty two people or even twenty one.
But they did kill more than justChris Regan, and that likely all of
(02:21):
Kelly's lies, games, and manipulationsserved two purposes. One, Kelly,
like Israel Keys, has a fascinationwith serial killers. She spoke frequently about
being an outlier when it came toother female serial killers. According to Kelly,
(02:42):
she didn't poison her victims, shedidn't target children, and perhaps most
importantly, she had a higher bodycount than most female serial killers, or
so she thought. Kelly wanted peopleto believe that she was the best and
most prolific email serial killer. Shetalked at length about writing a paper on
(03:04):
John Wayne Gacy and how her goalbecame to rack up a higher body count
than Gasey himself. Of course,even conflating Jason's and her exaggerated victim counts
still has her falling short by one. So even in her grandest of delusions,
Kelly is a failure. Two.Kelly's lies, games, and manipulations
(03:30):
were merely distraction tactics, tactics tokeep investigators away from the truth and Like
I've said, there is a littlebit of truth in each of Kelly's lies,
and one key to discerning Kelly's truthsis to look for the things she
doesn't want to discuss, the thingsshe's let slip then refuse to talk about
(03:53):
again. Like with keys, whenKelly is confronted by infra nation she doesn't
want investigators to have she gets angry, indignant, avoidant. Take for example,
the Minnesota Jason, where are thetrophies? For real? Maybe that's
(04:15):
another day, another day. Hey, Like I said, if you can
honor your word and let me havehim one more time, like you said,
minus the knife, maybe you canlet me just touch him. I
would do that. Then we'll haveto get there anyway, because you can
meet those Let me ask you someYes, other bodies? Yes? Where
(04:42):
are the other bodies? Indiana,Michigan, Tennessee. I happened in Minnesota?
Why are you asking about Minnesota?I want you to explain. Why
(05:02):
are you asking now? I meanthat's wow. Do you explain a little
curveball there? I didn't think soI had Okay, I had one friend
(05:23):
in Minnesota. Kay, what happenedin Minnesota? You're there? Yeah?
Um, just take it thrown offa little bit. Um, you didn't
(05:50):
like that. I just had afriend there, you know, and you
know and I know that is morethan that. Hence the picture. It's
the picture. Yeah, Is thatwhat worried you? No? I don't
really get worried. Okay, Sois that why? I like things to
(06:15):
go and order in my way?But it didn't go in your way?
And when it didn't go your way, then that's why you decided to take
off. No. Actually, Ihave no clue when I took off.
I think I was really just visitingFamily'll you're trying you were trying to take
my hobby away, Okay, tryingto take your hobby away. Yes,
(06:40):
okay, that's the only sense ofenjoyment I have in life. You have
no clue. Well, and that'sgone your hobby. It's fucked dangerous.
Yes, who was doing drugs?It is? It is. I don't
do trug to some I've ever seenin my life. I said, you
were the most recreational drug user I'veever seen in my life, even in
(07:02):
prison. Shut off. I'm serious. I'm not going to allow them to
No, I'm a fucking medication thatyou don't truly need because you're self diagnosing
yourself. No, I'm not talkingabout that. That's cute. I took
through the psychiatrist to talk. Sherealizes that you memorize the whole fucking book,
(07:26):
ban and forth. Yeah, thisis a jailhouse call between Ogden and
Kelly, over a month after Kellymet with Ogden and hasting Minnesota investigator Jason
Olsen. The majority of the callis focusing on two bags of trophies that
(07:46):
Kelly alleges she has a hidden awayand a deal she's trying to make with
Ogden and Frizzo about those trophies.If they promised to let her go through
the bags and spend time with thetrinkets inside of them, she'll lead them
to the bags. And we'll getfurther into that in a minute. But
(08:07):
you can tell. When Ogden changesthe topic of discussion to Jason from Minnesota,
Kelly gets flustered, and when Ogdenpresses on, she plays dumb.
She tries to change the conversation again. So, Minnesota, what happens?
(08:33):
Why does that matter? Today?Validate something for me? Would you an
accident? Okay? What happens?Wasn't he a mechanic? Dope? Hm,
thought it was a mechanic. Nope, you don't need that. But
(09:03):
I show the picture. I know, um what I do need. They'll
change the subject now because that's Ican't believe you're asking about that. I
forgot about it because that's out ofturned. It's not no, it is
okay, Well it's not for me. So can you validate something for me
(09:24):
at all? One thing? That'sall I ask. I ask you to
validate that one deal. What doyou want about it? I want the
details and it doesn't. All Iwant him is briefly, I want you
to take two minutes, give mea two minute rundown, and then you
(09:45):
and I will talk about it inperson more later. I didn't want to
talk about him. We don't havea choice. We all have choices.
What's his name? I don't know? All bullshit? You know his name
(10:11):
Jason Jason what? But then no, it isn't that's what it was?
That name, it was Jason JasonWhat. I don't know his last name?
Bullshit? You know there was twothough, Well, what's the other
(10:37):
one's last name? Then? How'sthat semenic? What semitic? Semenico or
something like that? I don't knowhow to say it? Okay? And
what's the other one? You werejust asking about one? Come on,
now, No, you didn't giveme the right one, so I gave
(11:00):
you one. What's the last nameof the guy? You don't need a
photograph of Olsen? Bullshit? Comeon, you want to yank my chain?
Really, you're gonna yank my chainfrom jail all the way there?
This is a fancy jail compared towhat I've been in. Yeah, is
(11:24):
his name is Jason? And no, it wasn't just because I have a
thing for Jason's Okay, I didn'tsay it was. Did I know?
Did you have my messages? Youknow? Do you know you have my
text messages? Okay, so letme ask you something. What was his
last name? I honestly don't remember. Oh, bullshit, No, I
(11:48):
don't. Okay. How did hedie? He wasn't supposed to. How
did he die? I don't know? Oh, God, give me a
break. Can we do this anothertime? Give me something? Would you?
How did he die? I giveyou Jason? This is what Kelly
(12:15):
does. She oscillates between trying toimpress people with her kill count and intelligence
and trying to hide the actual truthbecause unlike Keys, Kelly loves and will
do anything for attention, but verymuch like Keys, Kelly knows that her
(12:37):
secrets have currency. So you tellme the people that you killed today,
but you don't give me the exactlocations of where you put their body because
it will you will be useful later. Is that it you've seen that?
(13:03):
You know? That's truth? Well, I know that you can take me
to things. There's no doubt youcan take people to things. Actually,
you've never taken me to anything.Yeah, what did you take me to?
Jason's shouts? Only close though,because like you said that the first
(13:24):
time you said that, the firsttime you said that, it's the truth.
You've done it at my direction.You've done it at conversations with me,
but you've always pointed out that likejust like you did with Chris Reagan,
you demanded to talk to me onthe phone that morning through your lawyer.
No here, through your lawyer.You had your lawyer come out and
(13:46):
say that you would do what theywanted, you wanted them to do.
However, you wanted to talk tome on the phone. You and I
had a good conversation on the phone. I asked you to play well with
others, and you took them tothe location of Chris Reagan and then you
know, okay, with others.I know that, But so you do
that right, And you pointed outto me that I said, what are
we going to do today? Andyou said, we aren't going to do
(14:09):
anything. I'm going to do something. Yes, Oh, because you want
to make sure that I understand thatit's not me that did anything, that
it's you that did it. No, But then when I stand here in
front of you, you tell meyou did it for me or because of
you. Okay, because it's sincerity, But you also know he meant a
lot to me, okay, andother people won't have to do that.
(14:33):
Other people just make him a numberto other people. He is just a
number, and you know that.Do you think anybody's going to give a
shit that I hadn't feelings? Well, I mean in the end, I
mean, you allowed him to layout in the woods for all those times,
and that's the truth. You allowedhim to lay out there, and
you could have done things differently.I'm not lying to you, and I'm
(14:54):
not trying to be mean to you. I haven't ever have. I Well,
Tabie, that wasn't a touchet.I mean that was just the truth
to him by every day nobody.Jason didn't even about my husband didn't.
Boy, that's funny Jason and thenmy husband. No, I say that
(15:20):
because there's multiple Jason's. Kelly hasand continues to use her secrets or alleged
secrets to manipulate investigators into giving herwhat she wants. Currently, she's trying
to negotiate for a relocation to Californiafor reasons unclear, and she's willing to
(15:43):
give the name and location of asingle victim for this relocation, but investigators
want all of her victims. She'salso used actual and alleged locations of evidence
to take field trips while in carsrated and as far as I can tell,
only one of about seven field tripshas yielded actual evidence Chris Reagan's skull,
(16:10):
glasses and a single bullet and thefour steps used to remove that bullet
from his skull from both Pentoga Trailand then the Cochrane's home on Lawrence Street.
But Kelly's also taken Ogden to RobinsonLake Park, where she's claimed two
of Jason's victims can be found,and yet none were found. Deep River
(16:37):
Park where she claims between two andthree of hers and Jason's victims can be
found, and again none were found. Lafayette, Indiana, where she claims
two of Jason's victims can be found, and yes, you guessed it,
none were found. The Anna Dooneswhere she claims there's an additional two to
(17:03):
three victims, but none could berecovered. And finally Ottawa National Forest in
the Upper Peninsula, where she claimsshe buried one of her two trophy bags,
and like I said before, she'seven trying to negotiate something for that
information. She wants to touch andspend time with the various items she's stolen
(17:32):
from her victims, so she's willingto give the locations of the two bags
if Ogden can make arrangements for herto spend time with their contents. But
keeping with Kelly's contradicting stories, eventhose two bags seem to magically move around.
Kelly's been pretty devout about one ofthe bags being somewhere in her parents'
(17:56):
house, which has been searched twicewithout any bags full of trinkets or trophies
being recovered. The second bag,she now claims is buried in Ottawa National
Forest, but she's previously claimed itwas buried over forty five miles away near
(18:17):
Chris Reagan's body, and those claimsprovided her with a second field trip to
the Pintoga Trail. Are the trinketsCrown Royal bag that there is a vacuum
field stag around that around the CrownRoyal Bay? Yeah? So? And
(18:38):
how far is that bag from wherethe remains were jumped? Not far at
all, that's not part of Anddid you pick a specific spot to bury
these trinkets or somewhere I remember?What's that somewhere I would remember? And
(18:59):
what what makes you remember it?What was it that made you remember it?
I had actually been down all ofthe To me, that the back
road, I've been down all theback road and the airing it to drive
around and just enjoying the scenery.I'm going a joint here and there being
(19:22):
by myself. Why why wouldn't youhave put you know, these things down
one of the side roads? Tome, that's that was a side road.
I know it was a busy road, but not compared to what we're
used to. But we need thatto help good closure for of us.
(19:45):
There's a black of people missing theirfamily or they could their parents or whatever
their situation is. I agree,and that's that's so sad to me,
just like Chris Reagan. I Imean, this has never been if it
would have never come to light likeyou know it is now, and his
(20:08):
family would never know. And theworst part is, you know, the
rumors and everything else that oh hetook off or he you know. Can
you imagine all these other families thatare wondering about their family member, you
know, right? Why? Iknow? So are you do? I
(20:32):
do know that Chris because detective wastrying to tell me he moved, and
he would have been moving for awhile after he was shot. I have
never seen anything like this before mylife. But he died instantly when he
got shot. It was instant.Now, after all of these failed field
(20:57):
trips, Kelly has basically cried wolfenough that she's not getting any more.
Ogden's even told her as much.But she's still talking about these trinkets.
And the thing is, there's aprecedence for Kelly keeping trophies. After the
(21:18):
Cochranes murdered Chris Regan, Kelly tooka rabbit's foot from his car and hid
it under her front porch, andduring the first search of sixty six Lawrence
Street, Frizzo found that rabbit's foot, but she didn't disclose it in the
list of items recovered and seized duringthe search, which turned out to be
(21:44):
incredibly prescient and brilliant, because,as you'll remember that following the search,
the Cochranes fled Michigan pretty hastily.They were gone within twenty four hours,
leaving behind almost all of their belongings, including all of Jason's marijuana plants,
(22:07):
most of their financial paperwork, andeven the forceps that contained the only DNA
evidence linking the Cochranes to Chris Regan'sdeath. But neighbors reported that in the
hours before their departure, Kelly wasunder her front porch with a flashlight,
frantically searching for something. And Isuppose there's two possible reasons for this frantic
(22:32):
search. One she wanted to getrid of the evidence, or two she
wanted to keep that trophy. Buthere's the thing. If it's really about
getting rid of evidence, why didshe leave behind the forceps four SEPs that
had actually been inside of Chris Regan'shead, which the Cochranes left sitting on
(22:59):
their kitchen counter for all the worldto see. It seems to me that
if you're hastily trying to clear yourhouse of evidence before fleeing the state,
that's the evidence you're going to grab, not the rabbit's foot that's hidden under
your porch. And it seems therabbit's foot isn't the first or only trophy
(23:26):
Kelly's taken. Kelly has been prettyconsistent when it comes to listing exactly what
she's taken from hers and or Jason'svictims over the years. A mini filet
knife on a string, a necklace, a small Swiss army knife across a
(23:48):
watch, a silver banded ring,a money clip with initials on it,
a gold chain necklace, a pinwith an M and fire or flames engraved
on it, and a locket withthe initials l L engraved. At first
(24:14):
mentioned this came from one of Jason'svictims, who he allegedly killed on June
fifth of twenty eleven in Deep RiverPark with both a knife and a hatchet,
but in a later conversation, Kellyclaims it actually belonged to one of
her victims, James Walker. Forsomeone who's so great at remembering numbers,
(24:34):
Kelly struggles with other details. Andanother key to sorting out her truths from
her lies is her consistency or lackthereof, from interview to interview, and
these trophies have mostly stayed consistent inmultiple interviews over two years' worth of ever
changing stories, and investigators have lookedinto these items. A Hobert detective was
(25:02):
able to pull up a list ofitems Kelly had pawned in Lake County,
Indiana, between January of twenty fourteenand February of twenty sixteen. I'm not
sure why the scope of this searchwas so limited, and it appears to
be the only search of pawn recordsthey've done. The detective found that in
(25:22):
that time period, Kelly had pawnedthe following two quarters from nineteen sixty four,
which she pawned on December eleventh oftwenty fifteen. One fourteen carrot gold
ring with a diamond and crusted band, which she pawned on December sixth of
twenty fifteen. One pair of fourteencarrot yellow gold hoop earrings which she pawned
(25:47):
on December fourth of twenty fifteen.A generator which she pawned on October fourth
of twenty fifteen, and a slightlysmaller fourteen parrot gold ring which she pawned
on April seventh of twenty fifteen.So clearly none of the allegedly stolen items
(26:10):
that she listed had been pawned inor near Maryville in her brief time there
between fleeing Michigan and being arrested,and a payment plan and overdue balances for
the payment plan for the pawn jewelrywas later recovered during a search of Jason's
parents house. As for the listof trophies she alleges she took from the
(26:30):
victims, only a small Swiss armyknife has ever been recovered from her car
at the time of her arrest,and there's no evidence that it came from
any of her victims. So ifthese items truly do exist, according to
Kelly, they're likely still hidden awaysomewhere in Ottawa National Forest or along Pintoga
(26:56):
Trail, or somewhere in Kelly's parents'house, or Kelly found a way to
depart with them before anyone even knewthey existed. In late February of twenty
fifteen, just two weeks before theCochranes fled Michigan, Kelly started posting to
Iron River flea market pages on Facebook. She claimed that a friend of hers
(27:22):
was moving to Tennessee and she washelping her get rid of stuff. Among
the items for sale were shovels,tarps, and a sort of jewelry.
(27:45):
When it comes to discerning Kelly's liesfrom Kelly's truths, I've found there's three
things to look for. One avoidance, two consistency, and three deferred accountability.
While she loves to embellish and lieabout what she claims she's done,
(28:11):
when it comes to what she's actuallydone crimes she's actually committed, Kelly tries
to defer accountability to others, namelyJason. As you'll remember, Kelly took
methodical and premeditated steps to ensure thatall evidence in the murder of Chris Regan
(28:33):
pointed directly and solely at Jason,and for years Kelly created a narrative with
friends, family, lovers, andeven co workers that Jason abused her,
but by all relevant accounts, itwas actually the other way around, and
(28:53):
Kelly even kind of admits this inher April thirtieth interview with Ogden following her
around. What caused his mental issues? Right? Just you? Yeah,
(29:15):
they don't care you know, socausing his mental issues? Oh yeah,
you're capable of causing his mental issues. There's no doubt. Then you did
do exactly what I said you did, Then you do it. Kelly tells
Ogden that she caused Jason's mental healthissues, which may be true to some
(29:38):
extent, but I believe she believesit to be entirely true. In fact,
Kelly and Jeremy spoke quite a bitabout how Kelly used her psychology degree
and vast knowledge of all things DSMto manipulate people, and even in Jason's
health records, it's indicated almost allof his mental health check ins were motivated
(30:03):
in some sense by Kelly. Kellywas constantly diagnosing Jason, even in their
text messages. In one exchange,after Kelly disappeared for several days, she
tells Jason that he's being paranoid,which is just symptomatic of his schizophrenia,
(30:23):
and he believes her, which issad considering the most severe mental health disorder
Jason was actually diagnosed with was bipolardisorder, but Kelly convinced him he was
schizophrenic, she knew exactly how towork Jason. Circling back to that interview
(30:48):
though, the one on April thirtieth, where Kelly admits to being responsible for
Jason's mental health issues. Of Kelly'sdozens of recorded interviews and phone calls,
that one is the most telling becauseshe's high as a kite on mess.
(31:10):
Prior to and since that interview,she's always claimed that Jason killed eleven people
and that she wasn't present for anyof his murders except Chris Reagan. But
in that interview, just briefly,Kelly wavers, so you're following me out
(31:30):
that Jason never heard anymore Jason murders, and no one else And my other
person who's that I haven't see wherepark so Bo seems your wife that herk
(31:53):
Okay? How how do you threepeople go to see an eager art explain
it and no one knows nothing aboutit? Tough? Just great? I
don't know how many? How manyor a deep river parts? I don't
(32:17):
know. You're the one who's goingback and forth. Now, thanks for
different? Now, why why arethey different? Because I'm here I know
that, But why are they different? Why is the dynamic different between you
and I? How much work?Yeah? Put it? Well, I
(32:40):
know, I read your taxes.I worked hard. What changes things between
you and I? Look in youreyes? Like? What? What's the
look in my eyes? To havemore surprise than anything? I'm not surprised
(33:01):
you think this surprises me. I'mnot sure for data, not at all
all. I knew this from thebeginning, thank you. Yeah, yeah,
absolutely I did. You did alot of things throughout all of this
to try to throw me off ormake me think that you're crazy or whatever.
(33:23):
But oh gotta be crazy. Ohyou're not crazy. Oh no,
you're not. Is that what you'rewill for in this insanity? Yeah?
I can't do that. Person that'scrazy, don't right now? They're crazy?
(33:43):
That's right there, you go.That's pretty good. Somebody else would
have to love me, right thatkeeps yea? Yeah, yeah, I'm
sure. But see the thing ofit is is you read the diagnostic book
and then you go in there andyou tell them the things that they need
to hear so that they say thethings to you didn't want them to say.
(34:04):
However, you're the most manipulative personin the whole wide world. Yes,
sorry, The Bible, Jason onlykilled two people, Chris Regan and
someone else. And every time thisstatement has been brought up since, Kelly
(34:27):
gets flustered, angry, or avoidant, and then she talks about Jason killing
lots of people, dissolving them anacid or feeding them to pigs, or
she talks about Jason abusing her andmaking her do things she didn't want to
do. She always makes sure toseparate herself from his crimes. Even though
(34:51):
she's making up stories about her ownmurders, she makes a point to keep
herself separate from Jason's eleven. Herbody count changes constantly to eight, nine,
eleven, twenty twenty one zero,but Jason's is always eleven. And
even though she can sit down andwrite a fairly detailed list, including dates
(35:15):
and locations of his murders, shepersists that she wasn't there and she wasn't
involved, which is what makes thiscall with Frizzo so funny. As you
know, Jason that stopped just onewhat I had hit, the trophies that
(35:35):
he had kept. I put himin a vacuum sealed bag. So Kelly
had nothing to do with Jason's crimes, but she somehow ended up with his
trophies like they were souvenirs from sometrip he took without her. Kelly's whole
(35:55):
m o is and has always beento make Jason accountable for her crimes.
He was her patsy. She knewhow to play the victim, she knew
how to manipulate people, She knewhow to manipulate Jason, and she took
great steps to leave a trail ofevidence pointing at him. Kelly may be
(36:22):
trying to compete with John Wayne Gacy, and she's most definitely trying to impress
and distract by making up various murdersand kill counts. But she's also trying
to make it very clear that Jasonand Jason alone killed eleven people, eleven,
(36:45):
the same number of butterfly tattoos Kellyhas. Kelly's list of trophies includes
ten items, well plus the rabbit'sfoot she took from Chris Reagan. If
if what you if even a portionof what you've told me is true,
(37:07):
okay, because I don't, Idon't take everything you've said to me it's
true. And I know that you'vemade up a lot of shit. Okay,
you have things that will help otherswith their situations to do with their
loved ones. And you know,I'm not really concerned about helping people.
(37:30):
I know that, But but thereare some times that you actually think about
those situations and believe you have asmall bit of belief that the right thing
needs to be done. Just likewith Chris in other situations, I had
to do that. I know that. But there are other situations that you're
going to be in or that youwere in, that are along these same
(37:52):
lines, right right right or not? I mean, have you you've said
here and you've told me that thereare multiple bodies in Indiana? Is that
true or is that a lie?It's true, Okay, and those people
that are Indiana and Indiana who killedthem? You believe it's me I'm asking
you, okay, but I cangive you everything you need for it.
(38:15):
Okay, that's fine. Look,I'm not asking you to tell me that
you've done all of this. Okay. Here's the thing. I never wanted
that. But what I wanted iswhat I asked you for. What you
know what I asked? Your part? An answer? Now? What what
(38:37):
I asked you to do for me? For Indiana? Okay? You have
to you have to you have tokid me things. That's the way it
is. I've already spoken to theprosecutor. I did exactly what you asked
me to do, and you seethat I get frustrated when I talk about
(38:58):
it in general. Okay, Imean you probably consens it in me and
it does frustrate me. But ifthat's what you want, then my beliefs
on this earth are that it's betterthat I go my route and I do
it my way than you do ityour way. But ultimately it's going to
come down to you. If youcan't, I will. Okay. So
(39:21):
I don't want that. I don'twant that. I don't want that.
I don't want you to hurt yourself. I don't want you to hurt at
all. Okay, they don't.This is not meant to inflict pain on
you. This is not meant tocause you hardship. It's meant to make
people safe. That's all. Thisepisode was written, produced, and researched
(39:57):
by me your host, Josh Allmark, with research assistants from Becca Klein.
Thank you to True Crime Bullshit's newestPatreon supporters, Jake d Alana, Kay,
Jillian M. Becky, b KerryH. Hilary j and Sarah Pe.
This episode featured music by William Hellfire, Sergei Cheramisanov, Lee Rosevier,
(40:22):
and Radical Face
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com