16. Deep River

A look at how sexual abuse may have contributed to Kelly Cochran's life and crimes; and how it may play a role in deciphering her many stories.

This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.pactpodcast.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience or to support the show: www.patreon.com/studiobothand

Written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark.
Research assistance by Becca Cline.
Resources include: RAINN.org, Psychology Today, and Dr. Joni Johnston.

Music by William Hellfire, Stacxk, Kyle Preston, Chris Zabriskie, Lee Rosevere, Radical Face, Josef van Wissem, and Chromatics.

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
This is a studio Both and production. If you'd like to support this show
and get ad free episodes for aslittle as two dollars a month, go
to Patreon dot com slash studio bothAnd. It's Tuesday, April twenty six,

(00:29):
twenty sixteen, And I just receiveda call um from Kelly Cochrane two
fifty five pm. Okay, Hi, so Laura, Hi, can this
be on an unrecorded line? OhUm? I don't know how to do

(00:53):
that exactly. You want me togo to a different phone. I would
put furthest to not being recorded.Okay. Why do you not want it
recorded? Yeah? Because I wantto talk too, Okay, hold on
one second? All right, thankyou. So I have Kelly on the

(01:14):
other line. She I haven't onhold because she wants to talk to me
in an unrecorded line because she hasthings she wants to tell me. What
do I do? I know?But if she's asking me if it's recorded
and I'm telling her, okay,I don't know if I could. All
right, Okay, bye, allright, Kelly, I'm on under recorded
line. I'm sorry. Kelly Cochraneis a killer, an accomplice, an

(01:47):
addict, a victim prone to blackouts, has perfect memory, is a mother,
is infertile, is a cannibal,is insane? Is a genius?
Is a liar? The compendium ofKelly Cochrane is an unnerving and limitless rabbit

(02:07):
hole. I like to think thatI'm someone who's both a critical thinker and
responsibly decisive, but researching and investigatingKelly has made me feel anything but.
Either whether by crook or by hook, Kelly has even been able to manipulate
or manufacture what should be considered factualevidence. Both Kelly and her mother have

(02:32):
confirmed that Kelly was admitted to apsychiatric girl's home as a teenager. However,
that facility has twice been bought andsold, and the records from her
time there don't exist. Kelly canremember the exact dates and locations of crimes
that have actually occurred, crime sheoccasionally claims responsibility for, but there's no

(02:55):
actual evidence that can connect her tothose crimes, and she manages to get
wrong the most critical details. Kellycan remember the dates she murdered people,
but not the names of the peopleshe murdered. According to some documents,
Kelly had both a hysterectomy and laterreceived fertility treatments. Almost every fact or

(03:21):
detail about Kelly includes a loophole.Kelly knows how to work the system.
She knows how to work people,she knows how to take advantage, and
she knows how to create organized chaos. So the only time that you and

(03:42):
Jason participated in a killing is okay, And the only time that and that
is the only time that the twoof you helped each other clean up after
each other car, just with thecar with that other case we talked about,

(04:02):
okay or anything like that. Didhe suspect I'm sure did you ever
tell him you killed other people?You never told him of any of these
killings. What do you think I'venever been in trouble? That doesn't make
sense. Sure it does. Whenyou start something out, regardless of what

(04:28):
it is, for it to beeffective, for you can do it,
you have to do it thoughtfully.It was planned out. What why are
you smiling and laughing? Hut,because I'm listening to the words you have
to be cautious. What do youmean You're listening to the words I'm saying

(04:50):
because you just caught yourself and thought, why am I telling him this?
Yeah, Kelly is a planner.It's deeply evident in the murder of Chris
Regan. It's as evident in hertrip to Mattoon, Illinois and her little
dumpster run there. Her forethought andability to plan are likely why she was

(05:15):
never looked at or caught for anyother crimes besides the murder of Jason,
which was pretty well planned despite avery sloppy execution. But the forethought and
ability to plan demonstrate just how calculatedand premeditated Kelly was. She was taking
steps to frame Jason for Chris Regan'smurder months before the murder occurred. Essentially,

(05:43):
she was planning that frame job fromthe moment she started seeing Chris Regan.
So it's not a stretch to saythat Kelly wasn't really dating Chris Regan.
She was targeting him. She wasthe stalker in her relationships. And
I don't think she simply killed thepeople she dated. I think she dated

(06:04):
people specifically to kill them. Thevow may not have actually happened, but
it may have been a lie borneout of Kelly's intent or m O Kelly
once told. M William Phelps,journalist and author of Where Monsters Hide,
Sex, Murder and Madness in theMidwest, that she killed every man she

(06:29):
ever had sex with, and whilein true Kelly fashion, this both lines
up with her stories to police andcan also be proven false, she had
a month's long affair with a drugdealer who was still very much alive.
It begs the question, why whydoes Kelly have such a preoccupation with killing

(06:49):
men she's had sexual relationships with.Well, if Kelly is to be believed,
which is a very big if herchildhood may just answer that question.
You answer your mom's question with ariddle. He destroyed himself. Now she's

(07:15):
to figure it out. Who wantsto destroy himself? Right, she'll easily
figure it out. But you didn'tsay his name? Why not just say
his name? You won't give himthe the You won't give him that because
you won't say his name. Isthat one? I mean, I don't
know, I don't care, youdon't. You don't have to say his

(07:35):
name of me either, But whywhy wouldn't he I'm just curious why you
wouldn't actually say his name to her, because then she blamed herself. She's
gonna blame herself anyway. Well,I mean, I can assure you that
she's gonna blame herself no matter whatfor a lot of things, but none
of it's her fault. No,no, and I you know that I'll

(07:58):
do my best to reassure her thatit's not her fault or your dad's fault.
You know, your dad did becomereally emotional the other night as soon
as I walked in there. There'sno doubt in this world that your father
loves you more than anything in thewhole world, no doubt. I mean,
he just started sobbing within thirty secondsto me sitting down next to him.

(08:18):
Would you say to him? Ididn't say anything to him, nothing
other than I was there and hewas just overwhelmed by everything. Several times
throughout her various police interviews, Kellyalluded to being molested as a child and

(08:39):
teenager. She would eventually come rightout and admit it. And it's a
tough admission because Kelly lies a lot, sometimes seemingly for no reason at all,
sometimes to create chaos, and sometimesto emotionally manipulate people. And if

(09:00):
her childhood molestation is in fact alie, it wouldn't be the only time
she seemed to lie about a sexualassault. Have you had any contact with
the detective down there at all today. I shot him attack. I had
some problems last night. Okay.I had nothing to do with the case.

(09:26):
I was actually hoping he could helpme out because I don't have anybody
that I really trust, and hewasn't able to help me. So I
had a good help from a differentpolice station. Okay, I'm dealing with
a lot of shit. I've attackedat a gas station. You were attempted

(09:52):
a gas station and pretty much leftfor that. He doesn't believe me today
it has happened or last last night. Okay, But I went to the
hospital. They did their all theirtests. They know that I wasn't lying,
but that's neither here nor there.Okay, Well are you okay here?

(10:18):
No, I honestly well, Iwill never be okay, and then
I'll started from I don't know,ten eleven years ago. So it's just
just part of I guess something Ihave to deal with and I will be
okay. But I mean, areyou physically okay from whatever happened last night?

(10:39):
Are you? They did a test, I guess. I don't know
what it's called, but basically theychecked me for us TVs. UM what
I'm scared of Um, there's atest they can do for I guess HIV,
which in all my years of studyand I didn't know you could checks,

(11:01):
but I don't know. I'm surethings advanced, but I had to
start taking medicine for HIV just tobe in the safe side because I guess,
like even doctors in their fields,if they poked their fingers, they
have to do this fork regiment.There's like two pills who take on with

(11:22):
narcissist. Yeah, I'm familiar withthat. We had one of our officers
got stuck with a needle recently andhad to go through that whole procedure.
So so, UM, are yousaying you were sexually attacked or physically or
both? That's okay. So here'sthe thing. Kelly did, in fact,

(11:48):
check herself into the hospital on Aprileleventh of twenty sixteen, claiming that
she'd been attacked. According to hospitalrecords made available to Ogden, Kelly arrived
at a Meryllville hospital just after elevena m. On April eleventh. She
told her admitting nurse that she hadneck pain, back pain, a headache,

(12:11):
and right knee pain following an assaultby an unknown mail at an unknown
location. She stated that she didn'tknow what happened or where she was,
but that she believed she was ata restaurant in Meryllville at the time of
the attack. She then immediately describedthe attack, saying she was slammed up
against her car and possibly thrown tothe ground. She wasn't sure if she

(12:35):
lost consciousness or not, and whileshe said she couldn't remember what happened,
she also told the nurse that shethought she had been put into the perpetrator's
car at some point during the attack. She went on to say that at
some point following the attack, shebelieves a perpetrator returned her to her car,
where she woke up on the groundnext to it. Kelly claimed the

(12:58):
attack occurred at a round mid night. She wasn't sure if she had been
sexually assaulted, but said that shewas pretty sure that she had been because
she had pained the vaginal area.When asked if she filed a police report,
Kelly told the nurse that she hadn't, but that she had called a
detective who she was working with onan unrelated matter. That would be Detective

(13:20):
Ogden. Kelly told the nurse thatshe had not taken any drugs or consumed
any alcohol prior to the attack.She also noted that she wasn't sure if
she wanted a rape kid or not. In typical Kelly fashion, her story
changed when she met with a secondnurse less than an hour later. She

(13:43):
told that nurse that she had fileda police report. She also told this
nurse that she didn't want to takea pregnancy test because she couldn't pee and
knew she wasn't pregnant, which starklycontradicts what she told Laura Frizzo the very
next day. But like I said, I'm willing to come home. I

(14:05):
do want to feel safe about it, though. I want to believe that
I have a future, even thoughmany days I don't want a future me.
When I found out I was pregnant, I was horrified and I was
told I can't take this polygraph andthe detective had me take two pregnancy tests.

(14:31):
One of them showed up negative.Well, I've already had an ultrasound.
When I went to the hospital yesterday, they confirmed that I still am
pregnant. Okay, I don't wantthis. I don't want this now.
Is this Jason's baby? Yeah?Okay, I we would have conceived the

(14:56):
fifteenth through the seventeen, Okay,so about seven and a half week.
Okay, So I have full intentionsI was going to go to day to
having an abortion. I just aftereverything last night, I I couldn't do

(15:16):
it right. But if that's thereason I can't do this polygraph, that's
not the only reason I'm considering anabortion. I can't do it right.
No, I mean definitely don't don'thave an abortion. I mean, if

(15:37):
I'm understanding you correctly, you're sayingyou're saying that you were thinking about having
an abortion because you want to takethe polygraph or just because it's just you
just don't want to have this baby. Both. Kelly was scheduled to take
a polygraph on April thirteenth, theday following that call and just two days

(16:03):
after her hospital visit following her allegedattack. When Kelly was eventually discharged from
the hospital two hours after arriving atthe ear she was uncooperative at best,
and again her story changed. Whenthe discharged nurse arrived. Kelly expressed disappointment

(16:26):
that she wasn't getting any drugs forher pain. She also felt it was
inappropriate of the hospital to leave arape victim unattended for close to an hour.
The discharged nurse told Kelly that aurine sample would be needed to confirm
that she wasn't pregnant in order forthem to discharge her with appropriate pain medication.

(16:48):
This enraged Kelly, who then refusedto sign the discharge papers while also
demanding that she be sedated. Thenurse reiterated that Kelly would need to have
her vitals taken, which she alsorefused, and would need a urine sample,
which she refused, before any painmeds could be given to her,

(17:10):
and that the hospital did not sedatepeople unless medically necessary. Kelly still refused
to sign her discharge papers and wasessentially asked to leave. She would later
tell Ogden that the assault and therape were two separate incidents, occurring late
at night on April tenth at agas station and early in the morning hours

(17:33):
of the eleventh at a restaurant,respectively. Here's what we know for certain
about those two days and Kelly's statementstherein. Kelly was not pregnant. Medical
records and family interviews confirmed that,as of July of two thousand and five,

(17:55):
Kelly was incapable of getting pregnant.Kelly started telling people in the days
following Jason's funeral, people who knewshe couldn't get pregnant, that she was,
in fact pregnant. Kelly never fileda police report. She did call
Ogden in the early morning hours ofApril eleventh, but he didn't answer the

(18:18):
phone. Kelly would not specify toanyone which restaurant or gas station the alleged
attack or attacks took place at,so surveillance couldn't be pulled. Kelly told
investigators that she read that pregnant womencan't take polygraph tests. Kelly told Frizzo

(18:45):
that the hospital ran several STD testsand put her on HIV therapies. Hospital
records confirmed that this never happened inall likelihood. Kelly went to the hospital
for three seasons to get out oftaking her scheduled polygraph, to get sympathy,

(19:07):
and to get drugs. Kelly hasa rich history of bouncing around between
ars and various doctors with varying complaintsof pain in order to get prescription drugs.
Between June of two thousand and sixand May of two thousand and nine,
Kelly saw and obtained prescription meds fromat least nine different physicians, sometimes

(19:32):
visiting different doctors and ears on thesame day. On average, she was
prescribed pain and anxiety meds every otherweek during those three years, vicodin,
percocet, ultraset, clanazepam, flexoraldarvacet morphine, torridoal trazidone, codine,

(19:55):
naprosin, klonopin, catrolic, peroxytnes, galaxin, and the list just goes
on and on. She also managedto, on three occasions, get seizure
medication. Like I said, Kellyknows how to work people to get what
she wants from them. When Kellywas arrested, the DSM was found in

(20:18):
her front passenger seat. It hadmultiple pages with psychological disorders earmarked and their
symptoms highlighted. Kelly would later admitthat she memorized the symptoms in order to
obtain prescriptions and present as mentally unfitshould she ever be arrested. Kelly is

(20:40):
a planner, and her alleged assaulton April tenth fit well within her M
and helped her get the two thingsshe wanted, most drugs and a haul
pass for her polygraph. What makesKelly's alleged childhood molestation so tough is that

(21:07):
My general rule is always believe survivorsunless they give you a reason not to.
And while Kelly's alleged rape story isprobably reason enough not to believe her,
Kelly's actions and lifestyle, particularly asa teenager when she alleges the molestation

(21:30):
was occurring, could be considered symptomaticof someone who endured repeated childhood molestation.
Unusual weight gain withdrawing from normal activities, falling grades, changes in self care,
self harming behavior, suicidal ideations,drinking or drug use. According to

(21:53):
the Rape Abuse and Incest National Network'swebsite, those the prominent indicators that a
teenager is being molested. And whilewe don't know a ton about Kelly's childhood,
we do know multiple sources have indicatedthat Kelly exhibited every single one of

(22:14):
those symptoms. And as you'll recall, she was eventually admitted to a psychiatric
girl's home as a teenager, where, according to Kelly, she confessed she'd
been molested, killed a man,and hurt people who hurt her. And
while Kelly goes back and forth onthe actual time she was there and that

(22:34):
facility's records no longer exist. Iwas able to track down an outstanding bill
indicating Kelly had been admitted in nineteenninety nine, when she was either sixteen
or seventeen Kentucky. Yeah, Idid that, Yes, Yeah? Why

(23:00):
would you do that? And makesure you're all right? I'm all right,
aren't I? You are? DidI hurt myself? Did I attempt
to kill myself? That way?You could have? I could do it
now, obviously you could have justa little scratch or two. What's the
point of it I needed to IfI wasn't even hurt somebody, I hurt

(23:25):
myself. That helps? Yeah?And how long has it been that way
for you? Thirty three and ahalf years? Well, I mean I
heard you tell your mom that youremember things to the eighteen months old?

(23:48):
What do you remember? That doesn'tmatter, It doesn't make me who I
am? I know that To answeryour To answer Steve's question, yeah,
I was a most and and changing. In all my time listening to Kelly's

(24:11):
interviews and reading about her, I'vefound that she likes to lead people.
She makes confessions about her life forher crimes, and then immediately explains what
those confessions or actions mean. Shetells investigators that Jason abused her, but
she doesn't stop there. She alwaysfollows that with statements about how abused women

(24:34):
becomes submissive to their abusers and fearthem, and are thus more likely to
comply when under duress. She memorizesthe DSM and then tells doctors and investigators
what her symptoms are before telling themwhat disorders. Those symptoms are symptomatic of

(24:55):
every piece of information Kelly reveals.She uses to lead people into giving her
what she wants, whether it's drugs, an insanity plea, or aiding and
abetting Jason in the murder of ChrisRegan under duress. Of course, she
doesn't do that with the molestation,though, in fact she gets cagy or

(25:19):
defensive when discussing it. If anything, she distances herself from it. Yes,
I was molested, but it didn'taffect who I am. Of course
I can't help, but wonder ifit's the exact opposite. Kelly likes to
make it clear that she's not likeother female serial killers. Adamantly so,

(25:44):
and I try to make a pointnot to compare Keys or Kelly to any
other serial killers. Comparison and conflationare thieves of impartiality and creativity after all.
But the more I dig into Kelly, the harder it becomes to compare
her to another serial killer, specificallyAmerica's most notorious and well known female serial

(26:08):
killer, Eileen Warnos, shot andkilled men she claimed were raping and abusing
her. She was molested as achild. She struggled with alcohol and drug
abuse. She began acting out asa teenager following her sexual abuse, which

(26:32):
slowly evolved into petty crime, assault, theft, and eventually seven known homicides
of men. So I reached outto doctor Joni Johnston via email, who
at this point was unaware that Kellymay have been molested as a child and
teenager. I was curious if,perhaps like Warnos, Kelly's childhood molestation had

(26:56):
manifested in her murders of male sexualpartners. Hi, doctor Johnston, this
might be a reductive question slash conclusion. But if Kelly were molested by a
man as a child and teen,with that inform her preoccupation with slash m
of killing men she's had sexual relationshipswith, Joonie responded almost immediately. It

(27:22):
could certainly be part of the picture, but how big a piece would be
hard to say. We'd need tolook at who, what the response was,
what the abuse entailed, etc.But remember how unfortunately prevalent child abuse
is. In twenty eighteen, forinstance, seven hundred thousand children were allegedly

(27:44):
abused, Around forty nine thousand ofthem experienced sexual abuse, and fifteen percent
experienced multiple kinds of abuse. Now, I'm obviously not a psychologist, so
it's important that it's clear that thishypothesis has no real psychological base. But

(28:07):
in a discussion about who Kelly isand why Kelly is, childhood molestation is
a critical component. And we've seenlots of serial killers use proxies, Warnhos
and Kemper being the most notable examples. But those are questions of my eyes,

(28:27):
right, yeah, yeah, Nowdo you think those answers that you
really want to hear? No,No, they wouldn't be, So I
need to sugarcoat that a little bitof were you really blessed it by your
uncle? And who was it?Okay, No, he's not adapt living

(28:51):
alone without his daughter's miserable. Yeah, miserable. That's more satisfaction I'm getting.
How come you I thgured he describesand what I mean as crafty as
you are, you're revengel. No, you like revenge in some of it.

(29:18):
Nope. The uncle Kelly names asher abuser has no available record of
sexual abuse. He does have apretty clear record of substance abuse, as
Kelly alluded to, and Kelly's parents'reaction to hearing his name was not one

(29:38):
of shock or dismay. And whilethey never come out and say it,
it seems to me that they believeher. And then there is some connective
tissue between Kelly's claim, my hypothesis, and Kelly's long list of victim There

(30:02):
are two places that come up inKelly's stories over and over again, the
South Side of Chicago and Deep RiverPark. Kelly has claimed that she and
or Jason killed or disposed of threeto five victims in Deep River Park.

(30:22):
Kelly also told investigators before opening upabout her alleged molestation, that she had
been raped at a house near DeepRiver Park when she was sixteen or seventeen,
the exact time that she was admittedto the girl's home. Kelly's uncle
he lived across the street from DeepRiver Park. When you entertain the possibility

(30:52):
that Kelly's claim is legitimate. Itreframes a lot of what we know about
Kelly cock Grin. According to Kelly, she's killed every man she's ever slept
with. She doesn't kill women.Kelly and Jason lived with a convicted pedophile.

(31:14):
Kelly has a bizarre and conflicting preoccupationwith both protecting children and killing innocent
babies. Jason wrote about being apedophile, but he also wrote about killing
pedophiles. When you look at psychopathy, what we certainly think is because there's

(31:37):
been a lot of brain imaging studiesover the past five to ten years that
really do show some structural and functionaldifferences in the brains at least of adults
who have been diagnosed with psychopathy,there clearly seems to be some genetic components
and some biological components to psychopathy.However, it appears that these genetic and

(31:57):
structural components to get activated by environment. So it's almost like this perfect storm
for a lot of people who arepsychopaths. They have this genetic predisposition,
and if they are lucky enough tobe in a very very nurturing home,
in a very supportive environment, thenthat predisposition may not express itself the reverse.

(32:23):
You might have somebody who has aless of a predisposition and that are
in a horrendous environment, and thatthey may become a psychopath. As an
adult, Kelly talked a lot aboutkeeping trophies from her kills, and she
told Ogden multiple times that she wouldtell him where those trophies were if he

(32:46):
would let her spend time with them. Whether those trophies actually exist is up
for debate, But what I doknow is that Kelly and Ogden took two
trips to Deep River Park to lookfor the remains of her alleged victims buried
there, and that she's been anglingfor a third trip to Deep River Park,

(33:13):
where she could spend time in thepark across the street from the home
she claims her uncle molested her in. I don't have much respect for most
people. Most people irritate me.Most people don't think you're clueless of everything

(33:35):
that goes on around him. It'shard to have respect from people like that.
Please don't show us to my mother. But like even talking to my
mother, I mean, like thewhole respect thing, it's I'm just saying,

(34:00):
yes, I'm thinking about how Iwere at this respect. Let's put
it in that respect it's a goodmh. I give you a big,
long story, but you don't needit. I don't big us at all.

(34:21):
Boils down too. I'm behaving orout of respect because, as you
know me, where as people havetold you about me, I don't listen
to others. I don't like tofollow directions of others. I don't like

(34:45):
to be told to do. Yeah. I usually fight them every bit of
the way, right, Yeah,I haven't a little thinking Kentucky. I
really was bored. I had toomuch time to think, nothing to do

(35:06):
with my brain. I was goingto do something I didn't. I've never
gotten to that point to worry.It's perfect. I would have had no
problem. Did you realize that?Right? I'm sure you're capable of film
whatever you want, whenever you wantit. Well, anybody else, right,

(35:29):
yes, anybody's capable of anything.I know to put your mind to
it. I didn't harp me.Did you want? Feel feels? Did

(35:50):
you want not? I didn't hartme did you want? This episode was
written, produced, and researched byme your host, Josh Hallmark, with
research assistants from Becca Klein. Specialthanks to doctor Joni Johnston for providing insight

(36:15):
on female psychopaths and serial killers.Research resources include rain dot org and Psychology
Today. Thank you to True CrimeBullshit's newest Patreon supporters, Nicky C.
A J D, Deborah H,Layla B, Victoria R, Andrew F.
And Stephanie A. This episode featuredmusic by William Hellfire, Joseph Van

(36:38):
WISSEM, Kyle Preston, Stax,Lee Rosevier, Chris Zabriski, Radical Face
and chromatics too. And then Iget the swans. Be running a bedroom,

(37:27):
be running running, swar run herun