17. A Boreal Feast

An examination of the strange relationship and power dynamics between Kelly Cochran and Detective Ogden, reveals new patterns in Kelly's stories and behaviors. Plus, a cumulative overview of what we've learned about Kelly, helps construct an MO and timeline of her crimes.

This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.pactpodcast.com / www.bothand.fyi
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Written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark.
Research assistance by Becca Cline.
Tip by Olivia.

Music by William Hellfire, Chris Zabriskie, Lee Rosevere, and Odetta Hartman.

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
This is a studio Both and production. If you'd like to support this show
and get ad free episodes for aslittle as two dollars a month, go
to patreon dot com slash studio bothAnd. It's not your fault. You
know that, right, You werenot warm normal? Yes, no,

(00:32):
you weren't. No you weren't.Yeah, no, no, no,
no, no, it doesn't matter. You don't have the same chemical makeup
as other people. You don't havethose conconents. You don't can't have the
same sensory is there? Oh?You do you know the difference in right

(00:53):
and wrong? You do? Youabsolutely correct, not kind of. You
know what's right and you know what'swrong because because you've read it. So
from the beginning of your life youfeel that she did not know the difference
of right and wrong. But becauseof educating yourself, you now know the
difference between right and wrong, andcares and some values. And yeah,

(01:19):
you lived in defiance your entire life, right, which is typical typical,
Well, no, it's typical ofone who is in your position. The
relationship between Kelly Cochrane and Detective JeremyOgden has become one of the more compelling
aspects of the story of Kelly,and another key to how one might discern

(01:42):
her lies from her truths. Sheseems to simultaneously respect and admire Ogden while
also attempting to manipulate him. Interestingly, and not dissimilar from Russo and Israel
Keys, Ogden appears to be shockinglyhonest with Kelly, but unlike with Keys,
Kelly seems incredibly responsive to and adoringof Ogden's honesty. The more honest

(02:07):
and transparent Ogden is with Kelly,the more she seems to try to give
him what he wants, and yetthe more honest he expects her to be,
the more defiant she becomes with thetruth. As a Keen listener put
it, Kelly appears to be oppositionaldefiant. Kelly wants to confess on her

(02:28):
own terms and on her terms alone, So whenever Ogden presents information he has
or asks her a leading question thatshe doesn't want to confirm, she refuses
to answer, agree, or confirm, because, similar to Keys, Kelly
has to be in control of theinterviews in the information, and yet her

(02:51):
narcissism drives her to sustain the conversationand regain control of it. For example,
when Ogden asks Kelly about having atrophybag. Kelly responds by saying that
there are two trophy bags, onein Ottawa Park and the other which seems
to float around. Sometimes it's inher parents' attic, sometimes it's in her

(03:15):
house in Caspian, and most recentlyit's with her boyfriend, a man she
won't name who doesn't even know hehas it. The point is Kelly has
to prove to Ogden that she knowsmore than he does, and by presenting
two trophybags rather than one, shegets to be right and sustain the conversation

(03:36):
while regaining control of it. Thesecond trophybag is obviously a lie. It's
Kelly's way of regaining control of theinterview and the information. She in essence
has to one up Ogden and indoing so makes a strange and false confession.
And when you look at her crazierconfessions through this lens, you get

(03:59):
a better sense of when and whyshe's lying, usually in response to being
caught for something she doesn't want Ogdento know, or when she feels like
Ogden has outsmart at her. Kellyhas to feel like she's the smartest person
in the room, even if she'slying to feel that way. As Laura

(04:25):
Frizzo said, the relationship is weirdand how it straddles friendly and adversarial,
both indelicately and genuinely. In alot of ways, Kelly and Ogden need
each other. Kelly needs Ogden toget what she wants, and Ogden needs
Kelly to close the case and bringjustice to her victims and their families.

(04:49):
And as I've learned from Keys,when you devote years of your life to
a case or an investigation, nomatter the resolve, it never fully goes
away. Kelly and Ogden are foreverlinked in the most fucked up of ways,
and somewhat codependently, and it's acodependency both benign and malignant. There's

(05:14):
really nothing either can do to theother. Kelly's in jail for life.
She can't physically hurt Ogden nor harasshim, and he, by no means
has to deal with her. AndOgden can't really punish Kelly any more than
she already has been punished. Thestakes are incredibly high for both of them,
but it's a leveraged relationship where neitherparty genuinely has any functional leverage.

(05:42):
Neither of them will likely ever givethe other one what they want, and
so the relationship, the codependency,just goes on and on and on.
But even before Kelly and Ogden foundthemselves talking through bars, the relationship was
odd. Kelly repeatedly claimed that shechose Ogden to be the man to investigate

(06:09):
her, going as far as toinsinuate that she killed Jason in Hobert so
that the murder would be investigated inOgden's jurisdiction. And, like with all
things Kelly, this is probably bullshit. But there's also evidence that makes it
plausible. Ogden was involved in thearrest of or had multiple run ins with

(06:31):
various people close to Kelly, includingher brother and two ex boyfriends, all
prior to Kelly's move to the up. So it's not out of the realm
of possibility to believe that Kelly,a known stalker, knew who Ogden was
and preyed on him in some strangeway. Now, do I think Kelly

(06:51):
killed Jason and Hobert simply to getaccess to Ogden, Not even remotely.
But do I think it's possible shehad an interest in him prior to his
involvement in her case? Sure,and Kelly even admitted on several occasions to
driving past Ogden's house or following himaround Herbert, and she admitted it was

(07:14):
because she wanted Ogden to believe orknow that she was a threat to him.
The things. No joking about thatone other times. Yeah, uch
surveillance if you done truthfully, it'sthe truth, hears. Yeah, what

(07:41):
do you know about me? MYeah, but this is just a conversation,
right, you and I get tohave this conversation. Well, I
mean this is the way our conversationswill always occur. Yeah, yeah,

(08:03):
okay, what do you know aboutme? That the right? What got
shun? Play? Yeah, comeon, you can get a break,
Jason's get a break, res An, tell the truth. Don't play games

(08:26):
with me. No, tell thetruth. You are playing a game when
you say that happen so much,RESI, bullshit, bullshit. That's all
you do. If you research oneverything before you get involved in it.
Use a computer. Use a computer, oh yeah, you do. Use

(08:50):
at the public library, use itat perdue, use other people's log ins
in order to be able to researchthings so that you don't get caught.
Do it. That's a SMI idea. It is, and it's amazing.
I'm glad I thought of it allon my own. Thank you for the
tip. Yeah, thanks time.I already know that you did. I

(09:20):
already have all the subpoenas studying onmy desk and it doesn't matter. You're
right, it doesn't matter. Butthat's what you do. So what do
you know about me? Jeri?Good cop? What else? You've had
some issues? What are those here? Shoes? This sue mare? All

(09:45):
right? Point them out? Notjudging me? Why aren't you judging me?
Right? Because I didn't judge you? Are you good it? You
have to, it's your job.M No, it's not true you feel
I judged you. They haven't judgedyou. I'm not gonna play your fault

(10:09):
like that, especially kinds of stuffthat I know that'd be wrong. Why
I don't think it's wrong. Ithink it's respectful. When I asked the
question, I asked, it's notas though you're setting you're priding at me
and I'm human, that's I alreadyI've done the research. You know you
do. You have done research,and you do know it's not that IM

(10:33):
part doesn't make you. Why yousaid what you said to me sitting here
this morning, which fat, it'sabout shooting someone, I think. I
No, that's exactly why you saidit. No, but that's exactly why
you said it, because you know. Yeah, tell me you're right.
I didn't tell you you're doing yourjob. That was it's different than the

(10:58):
kind of killing that you do.I wasn't judging you know that. I
didn't say that's tru I don't thinkyou weren't trying to hurt me, not
at all. But as Kelly iswant to do. She flips back and
forth between contradicting statements. You mean, well, you're a good guy.

(11:18):
Oh I am, yeah, inertial? Now have you thought of jelling me?
Never? Why you're gonna kiss meoff? Why? I don't know.
Is that unusual? O? Good? God, don't matter? Truth

(11:41):
mission. I wasn't interested in doingthat too. What are the way did
you have done? Yeah? Yeah, tell the truth. You've done your
horn for coffee? Are you're sleeping? Well? I was sleeping where and

(12:01):
try when where? Else where elseI can talk about? Oh no,
that's not true. You've actually you'veactually thought about me and you've actually watched
me. Oh yeah, I didn'tsay that. I'm asking you. We're

(12:26):
else with an opportune moment, norwhat's super horror? Yeah, you should
carry an efe. I know youknown you had a big bird day.
You've got me down each time,right, being like men into so get

(12:46):
away right, it's not a type, but I get the super super work.
Yes, Oh my goodness. Shesays she's never thought about killing him,
and then she lists a handful ofvery specific times, places, and

(13:07):
ways she could have killed him,most notably during field trips on the many
many failed trips were Kelly took investigatorsinto areas she claimed there were bodies or
evidence, like in Deep River Park. In fact, on several of these
trips, including both to Deep RiverPark, Kelly joked to Ogden about being

(13:31):
able to escape if she wanted tothese same trips where she definitely wasn't thinking
about ways to kill Ogden or others, which poses another question. Was Kelly
manipulating investigators into taking her to DeepRiver Park to intimidate her uncle or to

(13:52):
establish some sort of agency over herchildhood trauma, or was she hoping,
after years escalation and multiple proxy kills, to somehow escape and murder her uncle
before serving life in prison. Everything, are you going to talk to me?

(14:13):
Or not. Yeah, I amokay, I'm going to answer you.
Um. You and my mother bothpointed out the fact that any institution
I've ever been in, I putmyself in. We know that's true.
I chose to do this, itwas time. But at the same time,

(14:35):
my hesitancy is I don't feel itwas done. I feel that that
I can still finish, but thingshave changed. What that is your goal?
Yeah? Where am I at allthat? You're the good one.

(15:09):
You're the good one that reached inand found that small percentage of good that
actually gives a small shit about peoplefor certain people. You know it.
And as much as that irritates me, and you know it does, because
for me to give a shit aboutpeople frustrate it is. You do understand

(15:35):
that, right. Yeah, Ican put on the act that I care
about people all day. You bothhave seen two sides of that. You've
seen me shift tears for stupid shiit. My thing is, it wasn't how

(15:56):
you said things. It was youtogged at them, like said small percentage,
then gave a shit twice and onlytwice. During her conversations alone with
Ogden, Kelly mentions a master planor some ultimate goal and when pressed she

(16:23):
gets quiet or irritated or changes thesubject. And in that clip, in
between trips to Deep River Park,Kelly mentions her incomplete plan for the last
time. It's Kelly Cochrane, soany Cocamimi plan is plausible. But it's

(16:44):
clear that Kelly was not done killing. After her arrest, she threatened to
kill multiple cell mates and prison guards. She was caught making shives in her
cell, and she told Ogden onseveral occasions that, quite frankly, her
urge to He'll never went away,which is why Kelly spends most of her
time in solitary confinement these days.Play well, okay, I try,

(17:14):
I'm not kidding. What's play wellmeans that means don't don't get yourself hurt
or hurt anyone else. I trynot to hurt myself. Every time I
have to not hurt somebody, Ido get hurt. So that's a part
of the process. It's one orthe other. Be nice, you know,

(17:36):
that's not in my DNA. Iwill I will see you soon,
okay, have a good day andI'll get I'll get on the phone with
you again here shortly. Thank you, ye bye. If all of the
interviews are boiled down to their twomost simplest parts. Kelly has a nually

(18:00):
two differing stories about the murderers committedeither separately or together by the Cochranes.
One Kelly killed twenty or twenty onepeople, all of whom were disposed of
in four different parks and in onecase the woods behind someone's house. Jason
was an accomplice in one and onlyone of those murders, And while she's

(18:22):
never come right out and said it, she seems to imply it's the murder
of Minnesota Jason. Two Jason killedeleven or twelve people, all of whom
were either disposed of in the sameparks as Kelly's victims, in the woods
or in campgrounds, or they werecut up and fed to their pigs.

(18:48):
According to Kelly, the details ofall of their murders have been written down
in multiple composition books which have neverbeen found, and in Jason's manu script,
of which only pieces have been recovered. And here's what we can confirm
about the crimes of Kelly Cochrane.One Kelly lured Chris Regan to the Cochrane

(19:15):
home, where either she or Jasonshot him in the back of the head.
I believe it was Kelly who shothim. Other than his skull.
Chris Regan's remains have never been recovered, and there's evidence and stories from multiple
parties, including Jason, indicating thatthe Cochrans cut him up and fed his

(19:37):
remains to their neighbors. Two.Kelly convinced Jason to try heroine for the
first time, injected him with alethal dose, then suffocated him with a
pillow she then threw up into hismouth to make it look like an overdose
and accidental choking. Three Kelly luredAlicia to a park late at night,

(20:00):
where she gave her lethal doses ofsedatives, sedatives that she told Alicia were
uppers. She then put Alicia behindthe wheel of a car and told her
to drive home. And four Kellyhas told multiple people that she has a
butterfly tattoo representing each of her victims. Kelly has eleven butterfly tattoos. Of

(20:27):
all the possible Cochrane victims, thereare two that stand out as the most
likely. Andrew Fugate, a manwho was shot in the back of the
head while working at a meat plantwithin walking distance of the Cochrane's home in
Maryville just several months before they randomlyuprooted and moved to the up. Surveillance

(20:48):
cameras at and around the meat plantshow two people exiting a car that resembles
the Cochrane's truck and approached the crimescene just minutes before the murder. The
two can then be seen running backto the truck and driving out of the
parking lot. And then there's JasonRuder, a man who was shot in

(21:11):
the back of the head in hisown backyard in Hastings, Minnesota, in
twenty fourteen the same year and smalltown where Kelly claimed to have murdered a
man named Jason. A week afterJason Ruter's murder, the Cochranes went camping
in Ottawa Park, the same parkwhere Kelly claims she buried trophies from at

(21:32):
least one of her kills. Thereare incredibly strong patterns that are present in
what we know, what we canassume, and some of the stories that
Kelly has told investigators. And themore we know about Kelly's childhood trauma and
how it may have manifested in hercrimes, the more we can discern truth

(21:53):
from fiction in her stories and themore we know about Kelly's tells, responsive
irritability and oppositional defiance, we caneven further discern her truths from her lies.
I've said and alluded to it throughoutthe podcast, but I'll say it
plainly here and now. Kelly's mhas always been to make Jason accountable or

(22:19):
look accountable for her crimes. Andthere is no evidence whatsoever that Jason murdered
anyone, including Chris Reagan, amurder which Kelly stresses somewhat irritably, that
Jason committed and she merely helped coverup. The other pattern that's emerged is

(22:42):
that the Cochrane seemed to check themselvesinto mental health facilities following their homicides,
and it's something Kelly even kind ofadmits in her discussions with Ogden. She
used her knowledge of psychology and hertreatments to manipulate other and make people think
she was mentally unstable. She alsotold Ogden that she was partially responsible for

(23:07):
Jason's psychological disorders, and we knowthat Kelly knows that can't be true,
at least not literally. But thereis evidence to indicate that perhaps Kelly made
Jason think he was sicker than heactually was. In their text messages,
Kelly frequently diagnoses Jason. She alsoconvinces him in the multiple times he suspects

(23:33):
or catches on, that she's cheatingon him, that he's suffering from paranoid
delusions. And following Chris Regan's murder, it's Kelly who convinces Jason to check
himself in for treatment and an admissionnotes for Jason's treatment. Following Jason Router's
murder, it says his wife urgedhim to get help because of Kelly's lies,

(24:00):
which may be compulsive or maybe organizedchaos. We may never know who
exactly she murdered, but based onemerging in known patterns and her behavior,
we can start to make sense ofwhen she murdered people, which of her
stories have the most weight, andwhat exactly her m was. And so

(24:25):
I made a list. She walkedinto the backyard and stood out from the
wrist, bending a tie round herneck on assumnips and as smiled as I
past her fiver cigarette dark no lashes, Finn joan a Chase, Oh listen,

(25:00):
keep my hands in two and thisepisode was written, produced, and
researched by me your host Josh Hallmark, with research assistance from Decca Kleine.
This episode featured music by William Hellfire, Chris Zabriskie, Lee Rooseveer, and

(25:25):
Odetta Hartman. But Lorning, Ifelt choose we find, but I can't

(26:04):
keep my sins is from there?Why but you know why? I'm not
whoa whacking he makes? Mind?Why he sussing? Why he makes I

(26:41):
supposed to do? Do we wantit back? No? I he remain

(27:04):
to miss. No okaidh blow Imy make to this blowkidar Warkids