May 3, 2023 • 43 mins
If Laura Frizzo knows Kelly best, then Walt Ammerman probably knew Jason best. We get to know Jason through an interview with friend and eventual informant, Walt. Then we explore Kelly's Facebook and its odd parallels to her crimes, and an unsolved Indiana homicide and its odd parallels to Chris Regan's murder.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.pactpodcast.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience or to support the show: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark.
Music by William Hellfire, Whithe, Sergey Cheremisinov, Lee Rosevere, Radical Face, Kyle Preston, and LEVY.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.pactpodcast.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience or to support the show: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark.
Music by William Hellfire, Whithe, Sergey Cheremisinov, Lee Rosevere, Radical Face, Kyle Preston, and LEVY.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
This is a studio, both andproduction. So Jeremy calls. He says,
I got an idea, Walton,and it was really Jason's only friend
or a good friend. And I'mgoing to have Walt called Kelly and tell
her that Jason left this letter behindsaying, you know, if anything should
happen to me, send this letterto Iron River Police. And I thought,
(00:33):
this is not going to work out. You know, she's going to
know. I mean, she's notstupid, she's you know. So the
FBI did not agree with Jeremy's ideaand thought that was a bad idea and
really didn't think it should happen.Jeremy was pissed. Walt listened to the
(00:54):
FBI and just headed out of townfor work and Jeremy sitting there wayne for
him to show up. So anyhow, they rescheduled it and it worked out.
Okay. It was like a coupledays later, while came back through
town, Walton ended up meeting upwith Jeremy. Jeremy miked him up,
Walt made the call. Wal didan amazing job. So I play the
call and I hear it, andI hear her response, and I just
(01:18):
like the hair stood up on myarms, and I thought, oh my
god, you got her. Oneof the biggest differences in the Keys and
Cochrane cases is technology. Keys wasessentially a Luddite. He knew enough about
technology to fear it, at leastat first. The Cochranes, on the
(01:44):
other hand, lived much of theirlives online. In particular, they were
very active on Facebook, very active. In fact, if Keys's biggest lack
of judgment was online message boards,Kelly's was Facebook. And it's on Facebook
(02:07):
that the Cochranes met Walt Hammerman,Jason's best friend, who eventually turned on
Kelly and set her up with theLetter Roots. Jason and Kelly met Walt
while playing the game Battle Pirates onFacebook. I met Jason through the Facebook
(02:28):
game that we were playing, andI met Kelly through the same game.
But Jason and I just, youknow, we really hit it off.
We started the game at the sametime, basically, so we were learning
together, and our basses were rightnext to each other. And that's one
of the oddities of the whole thing. I start playing the game and out
(02:51):
of the blue, I land inthis sector two forty nine out of five
hundred, right next to his base. It's the only way I met him,
And over the next year or so, we played the game constantly five
six nights a week, maybe seven, and chatting online and visiting in person
(03:13):
and talking on the phone. Andhe didn't really have any other friends.
I didn't really learn that until theday of the funeral. Actually, when
I went to his mom and dad'shouse, his mom was introducing me to
all of his relatives as Jason's Youknow, this is Jason's best friend.
(03:35):
Well, I would have thought thatthere would have been a better friend than
somebody he met on the internet threeyears prior, but that was the case.
Sadly, If Laura Frizzo knows Kellybest, it's fair to say that
Walt Ammerman knew Jason best. Andsince Jason is rarely seen as anything other
(03:58):
than a pond to Kelly or anabuser to her, I wanted to talk
to Walt to get a clearer understandingof who Jason was, what he was
capable of, and what his relationshipwith Kelly actually looked like. For most
of my life, I've listened tobooks on audio tape because I travel all
(04:18):
the time, and I really enjoyedGrisham and Baldasci and Patterson, and it
just felt like the whole time Iwas actually in a book that was better
than they could write. This isWalt, a lifelong fan of crime stories
who suddenly found himself at the centerof one after befriending Jason and Kelly Cochrane
(04:41):
in twenty eleven. It was clearto me that Kelly ran the household,
if you will, Bill's cooking,shopping, finances, decisions we're all went
through Kelly. Jason seemed very hejust really went with what she said,
Uh, non confrontational. Any decisionhad to be made through Kelly. Yeah.
(05:08):
I was going to ask if yougot the sense that he was dependent
on her. I don't think theywere ever going to be separated, you
know, without how they were separated. I guess I should say, you
know, I didn't see them breakingup, and I felt like they were
just meant to be together, andthey were going to be together, and
he needed her and she needed him, and it was it was just two
(05:31):
people that were seemed to be ona path together. And why do you
think she needed him? I thinkI think it was it was somebody she
was controlling the whole time. Ithink she probably controlled him for their entire
relationship, and that's kind of scaryto think of over twelve or thirteen years.
(05:56):
But I think that, you know, what we saw in the end
was probably no different, and itwas throughout. I don't know how it
would be any other way. Idon't think it would change, you know,
I don't. I think you hadto get into that in the beginning
when she was running the show.I guess I never really thought about that,
but that's that's what comes to mymind now. And did he ever
talk to you about his relationship withKelly. He didn't talk about it much.
(06:21):
It just all got back to ifthere was anything about him and Kelly,
it was well, i'd have tosee what she says, or we'll
do whatever she says. And yeah, I don't. I don't know as
you really talked about good or badparts of the relationship. I felt like
he was happy, but I don'tknow if if he was happy. Yeah,
(06:46):
I imagine it's really hard to havea friendship with someone and feel like
it's one way and then find outall this stuff was happening that you weren't
aware of. Yeah, and youknow, obviously the big question that everybody
has that. Everybody wants to knowtwo things. Do you think they actually
killed more people? And I thinkyou touched on it on one of your
other podcasts that the FBI forensics theybasically tore that house apart twice and found
(07:15):
not one speck of anything until shepointed out the demos that she claimed she
tried to get the bullet out ofChristmas head with. Now, I don't
even hunt, I don't. Idon't. You know, gut deer if
you will, but I would challengeeven the best hunter to even drag a
deer to his basement and carve itup and get it out without leaving one
(07:39):
speck of blood. I don't thinkthat you could possibly do that the first
time and do it that good.Yeah, And that's kind of my opinion.
And I you know, it's hardto believe anything she says, but
there have been a few things shesaid after all this that you know,
can kind of be corroborated. Weknow that they actually did raise pigs,
(08:00):
and there's a lot of spectacle,But it seems to me that you know,
if you cut someone up and cannibalizethem, that's probably not the first
time you've done it. Yeah.I mean, the the murder is horrific
on its you know, by itself, but the the ability for any two
(08:20):
people, any one or two peopleto allegedly do what they did. You
know, we don't know exactly howthey did it, but we know the
end result. And that's I justdon't see you doing that the first time.
And that's that's how aggressive you goat it. I assume, just
(08:46):
based on our conversation thus far,that Jason never talked to you about extramarital
relationships that either he or Kelly werehaving. The only the only thing that
he mentioned was the other woman inIndiana that may have started out as the
three of them together and then turnedinto more of of Kelly and her together.
(09:09):
They did talk about that around Christmastime, and it was Kelly bragging
that that, you know, thisis what I got Jason for Christmas or
something like that, and you know, every man needs to be happy,
and and like she introduced this thiswoman into their relationship, and he was
(09:31):
just kind of sitting there smile andI don't know, like you know,
like you know, he didn't evenreally comment on it. So it was
her telling me about it and himjust kind of smiling and didn't really have
anything to say positive or negative aboutit. It was kind of an odd
situation, but that's the only theonly time they talked about anything. That's
(09:52):
interesting because it kind of lends tothe theory that Kelly even did that as
self service rather than actually doing itfor Jason. Very very well, that
makes entire a lot of sense.So how did you find out that they
(10:13):
were under investigation for Chris Regan's disappearance? If I had the timeline right.
Chris disappeared mid October, and Ihad even though they moved five hundred miles
away from me, I was stillin contact with him at least five nights
a week on the Internet playing thegame, and a phone call once a
(10:35):
week or so. Well, thenthere was like three or four weeks where
there was nothing, no contact,no no internet, no phone. I
just assumed, you know, quitefrankly, I assumed maybe their internet got
shot off, where their phones gotshot off, so they weren't calling,
or I didn't know what was up. So he called me eventually sometime in
(11:00):
November, I want to say,and he said, Hey, I just
want you to know we just gotour phones and computers back and that's why
we haven't been online. And thenhe went on to say that apparently somebody
is missing and they think that wehave something to do with it. And
they came and took our phones andcomputers, and they finally brought him back
(11:22):
and I asked what who's missing?And he said, well, I don't
know. I think he worked withKelly, but I don't really know who
he is at all. Now,had he told me that their internet got
shot off, I would have believedthat. But I've always wondered, was
he planning to see that he mightneed help someday over this situation by bringing
(11:46):
it up immediately? I mean,the first time I talked to him in
a month, he's telling me aboutit. It was like, how good
of a friend was I for thatto be brought up in the very first
conversation? This is this is whereI'm at. They're looking at us and
we don't know who it is.Was he trying to cover himself up already,
or you're asking for help to himhow? I don't. I don't know.
(12:09):
It's really it was our angle.And is that something you feel in
hindsight or was that kind of yourinitial reaction that it was odd that he
was sharing that with you. Ohno, no, that's all hindsight.
I mean initial reaction, I waslike, well, I mean, yeah,
I didn't really I don't even knowwhat my reaction was. I was
like, well, that's kind ofodd, but I mean I've been in
(12:31):
Michigan since third grade, and evenin the Lower Peninsula there's there's desolate spots
down here. You go up there, and who knows, somebody could have
just wandered off. I mean,people do go missing. He told me
he didn't have anything to do withit, and I took his word for
it, and it wasn't until sometime later before I really got more curious
(12:54):
about it. Tell me about howyou found out about Jason's death. HI
message with him on a Friday night, the nineteenth of February, and he
said they were going out and wewere talking about the game we were playing,
(13:16):
and it just kind of ended like, well, you know, see
you later, and he left andI remember typing the word peace, and
you know how you can tell onFacebook whether they read your messages or not.
He never opened that, and Igot a text from her the next
(13:37):
day, round four or four thirtyin the afternoon and said, I just
want you to know Jason died lastnight. And I felt that was kind
of an aggressive way to just,you know, seems I don't know.
It really just shocked me. AndI was with my wife at the time,
and she never did really trust Kelly. And as soon as I told
(14:01):
her, she's like, what,she killed him? And I'm like,
I don't even know how you wouldget that from it. I just said
he died. I didn't say iteven how it happened. And she believed
that from the second she heard it, that she killed him somehow, and
I didn't want to text her aboutit anymore. I called her and I'm
like, what, what do youmean, what happened? I just talked
(14:22):
to him last night? She said, I don't know. He started throwing
up and not feeling good and hewas on the bed and I tried to
get him off the bed and Itried to revive him and I couldn't and
he's gone. And it was justlike she wasn't crying when she told me.
She just explained it like she wasreporting it, and that was it.
(14:48):
Saturday. I'll never forget. It'sso funny because you know, before
I did this case. I workedon another case about a serial killer,
and just how cavi Lear Kelly isis really just makes my skin crawl,
because even the previous serial killer seemedto have a lot more understanding of empathy
(15:09):
than she did. And if youlook at her Facebook page on the week
that Jason died, it's like shedidn't even care. Did you see the
picture she posted announcing his death,Yeah, the shirt that he was wearing.
I can't even stop being difficult andtake it up the ass. That's
(15:31):
the picture you're putting over your deadhusband. Really, I don't understand that.
Within hours of Jason's death, Kellybegan vague booking by posting several photos
of Jason, the first of whichwas a photo of him wearing a T
(15:54):
shirt that read, I'm not tryingto be difficult, it just comes naturally.
Stop crying, take it up theass. Kelly eventually cropped out the
bottom half of the shirt, andthen shortly thereafter, she posted an entirely
different picture of Jason. And it'son this picture where she made her official
(16:18):
announcement about his death, somewhere inthe comments section. Yeah, I just
like I'm continually floored by just howbrazen and cocky she is, and all
and all of the posts that shehad around. Then, how am I
going to be move on without mybest friend? It will never be you
(16:40):
know. It's almost like a Bonnieand Clyde thing. Well, and nothing
about it felt genuine. No,And the day of the funeral I didn't
make it to the funeral itself.I was in Wisconsin, but I stopped
at his parents house that they hadthe dinner after there, and his mom
was introducing me to all of hisfamily. Is his best friend. And
(17:03):
oh, by the way, Kelly'supstairs in the bedroom if you'd like to
go visit with her. Okay.So I went up the stairs into the
bedroom that she killed him in,and she said on the bed, and
I stood by the desk and shetalked about it. Yeah, he was
in the bed here and I gothim out. It's like I was in
(17:23):
the room and happened in and shewas just calmly telling me how it was
and where the paramedics came in,and to be that it's just even I'll
never forget that what led you tocontact the FBI. I have to give
all the credit to my wife forthat. I'm not saying I didn't have
(17:48):
thoughts of it, but she wasvery adamant about the fact that I needed
to let them know that he wasgone. And I kind of kicked it
around all day Sunday. And itwas now that I know Laura Frizzlo personally,
I wish I would have called herfirst. But you're thinking about northern
Michigan. You're thinking, I don'teven know who I'm going to call at
(18:11):
this local police office. I'll justcall the FBI number, because I had
researched and found the fire months beforeon the disappearance of Chris Reagan, and
it had the numbers on there,and it said the two most likable suspects
had moved Indiana, and she justwas just insisted you just have to call
(18:34):
him. And I called Monday morning, probably a couple hours before they were
going to do the autopsy, andI said, I don't know if they
did anything. I don't know ifI can't tell you anything about that,
but I know that your suspects,and I know one of them died Saturday.
And right away the FBI agent said, well, how did Jason die.
(18:57):
I didn't say Jason died. Hesaid well, if ful up and
died, it was Jason. Sothat kind of shook me up and said,
well, I don't know how hedied. She said he threw up
and they couldn't save him. Andwithin an hour of that, Kelly was
calling me and saying, yeah,they're postponing the autopsy till Tuesday because they
(19:18):
had a siege of bodies coming overthe weekend. And it wasn't to do
with that. It was it wassimply because the FBI was then in contact
with I'm sure Chief Frizzo and inturn Indiana, and they wanted somebody there
to officially do the autopsy if youwill. Your timing was so fortuitous,
you know, Like I said,I have to I have to give Jen
(19:40):
the credit for that for insisting Ido that, because they very well may
have done a generic if you willautopsy. I'm sure there's different grades of
autopsies, whether you're looking for accidentaldeath or really doing everything. And maybe
the fact that the police officer neededto be there for that type. You
(20:00):
know, you're you're really investigating acrime at that point. So it must
have been strange, to say theleast, making the decision to call and
report this and having that turn intothe FBI asking you to essentially go undercover
(20:23):
with this letter and this phone call. How and that don't it surely wasn't
the FBI that did that part.It was solely detective Ogden and Hobart.
You know, the FBI definitely gavehim my phone number, but the FBI
was really they were of the opinionthat this wouldn't even work. They suggested
(20:45):
that I'd not even make the phonecall, and it weighed on me whether
I should even do it, becauseI mean, I got you know,
in the big picture, you wouldthink you should probably listen to the FBI,
and then this picture it was andthe result was so much better by
listening to Detective Octen because he hadthe plan and it worked. It's just
(21:10):
a surreal experience that I can't evenreally put myself in your shoes for.
Yeah again, I go right,I go back to the fact that I
listened to all these audio books andI felt like I was in a book
the entire time, so where I'mprobably more nervous about it now when I
think about it than I was then, because it just felt like this is
(21:30):
just how it has to happen.I mean, I was so far down
the rabbit hole. I don't wantto say that if I didn't do what
I did, she never would havebeen caught for anything. I don't believe
that for a second. But ifit helped bring some closure to Chris Reagan's
family, that's a good thing.You know. Obviously you guys were at
(21:56):
trial together. But following that phonecall, have you heard Kelly? Oh?
Yeah, I have letters from her. She's called me from prison a
few times. She called me fromIndiana after she pled guilty to killing Jason.
She's sent me the paperwork to fillout that you have to fill out
(22:18):
through the State of Michigan to comevisit an inmate. She would like me
to come visit her, said,you'd like to sit on and talk.
So then the next question is ado I want to? I mean,
part of me will always want togo visit with her because I just want
to say why. But I don'teven think I could believe her. If
(22:42):
I did go, it would probablycreate more questions than I would have answers.
Why do you think she wants tovisit with you? Well, it's
just her probably still wanting to controlthe situation, to try to probably tell
me. You know, you don'treally know the truth. It was really
(23:03):
Jason that was the monster, andyou don't know how hard I had it.
You know, I'm sure it's juststill spinning it to make her look
better than him. And maybe it'smore than that. I don't know.
It's it's a question I'll probably haveforever if I did go? What would
she say? Why does she wantme to go? I mean, she's
(23:25):
asked me a few times, andlike I say, she's actually sent me
the paperwork to fill out to govisitor. It says a lot about her
that you would think she would bepissed at you, but instead she just
wants your attention and to I guess, manipulate your position on things. I
think, So would you go?How do you know? Yeah, you
(23:48):
know, it's a question I've beenasked, and you know my gut instinct
is yes. But if it camedown to it, I don't know,
right you you was a reporter type, I could see. You know,
you have no ties to it otherthan the fascination of the fact that it's
a it's a great story, sad, but but in intriguing myself, it's
(24:10):
a whole there's you know, Imean, I mean I've had you know,
how long has it been, andyou know, it's been four years
since it happened and here we arestill talking about it. I don't know
if it will ever end for thecuriosity of the public to you know,
it's a weird society we're in,but it's what we're in. Yeah.
(24:33):
I struggle doing this because it isfascinating, but I just constantly am reminded
that these are real people and thisus have had real ramifications and it's a
strange position to be in. Iwant to talk for a second. We
started off talking about Jason. Iwant to mention that one of the saddest
things for me is his family.I was pretty close with his family.
(24:59):
Um. I would play yuker athis mom and dad's house with his mom
and Kelly in the kitchen and hisdad's and watching Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune,
and you know, it was Iwas welcome there. And they're very
upset with the way things turned out. And what I mean by that is
(25:22):
they probably had enough to arrest Kellyafter the autopsy for killing Jason. I
know the toxicology wasn't back yet,but I believe they probably had enough to
do that, and they maybe theyshould have, but I know that they
wanted to solve the other case also, so in doing that, they gave
(25:42):
the body back to Kelly and shehad it creamated. His family did not
want the body cremated, so they'reupset. And I don't want to say
they're blaming me, because quite frankly, the Hobart police didn't call me two
or three days after the funeral,and they wouldn't have asked me whether they
(26:03):
should give the body back anyway.That was just all on their decision.
But yeah, I don't have anycontact with his family anymore. That's kind
of depressing. It's like, Idon't I don't know. I mean,
maybe I shouldn't care, but they'regood people, you know, and their
son or brother did something horrible.But it's just there's so many emotions around
(26:29):
the whole thing, you know,you can't ever forget. Well, it
must be really hard because I think, you know, we all kind of
process loss when we have someone toshare it with, and for you,
that's that was your only point ofsharing that loss was Jason's family, right,
And I guess there were lives tothem because I had talked to them
(26:52):
a number of times after the lettercall and before she was arrested, and
it came out that I made theletter call. You know, they were
you know what was in the letter? I don't know. They were asking
me as much as Kelly were,and I had to tell them all I
didn't know. So they really wonderedwhat he would have wrote to me.
(27:17):
So I'm sure that part of theiranger is the fact that I lied to
him too, And you know,that's that's a different angle to think about.
To forget about Kelly, think abouta mom and a dad thinking their
son wrote this letter. I wonderwhat he said, and you know,
I guess that's something that they're stillupset about. Well. I hope in
(27:41):
time they'll understand and forgive you,because I think, Yeah, an odd
thing was as I came out ofthe courtroom, Kelly's dad sat through the
testimony of me, because Kelly's momwas directly before me, and her dad
(28:07):
was in the courtroom and he stayedfor mine. And when I walked out,
he came up to me, andI had no idea what he was
going to say. I was Iwas really concerned about that, and He
just took my hand and he said, I just want you to know that
you had to do what you hadto do. And it was okay for
a guy to say that to somebodywho helped get his daughter arrested and more
(28:33):
than likely it was going to goto prison for life. It was a
relief off my shoulders to think thathe was okay with what I did.
I don't know how how to eventell you how much set that was good,
and I could be wrong, butI get the sense that despite everything
(28:57):
that happened because of what you did, I get the sense that you still
feel guilty about it. I guessit's not guilty that she's there, it's
just the whole I think I feelmore guilty for his family being. You
know, I wish that things couldhave happened quicker and they could have got
(29:21):
there their son back to do withwhat they wanted to. But like I
said, I had no control ofthat. It's just a Maybe I do
feel guilty, but it's just it'sjust something that happened. I mean,
nobody can feel what I felt.Do you think, And I know this
(29:47):
is a weird question, but Ithink you'll understand. Do you think Jason
was a good person. Um.I would say growing up he was probably
a very good person, and Ithink getting with her changed him. And
(30:10):
I don't know how I can reallysay it was a good person if he
was really capable of taking part insuch a crime, but I think in
the early ages of life, I'dsay he was. Since the Cochrane's befriended
(30:32):
Walt while still living on Mississippi Streetin Merrillville, I was eager to ask
what he knew about their seemingly abruptmove to the Upper Peninsula in January of
twenty fourteen. For months and monthshe was researching. He did extensive research
on places they wanted to move to, and I traveled for a living,
(30:56):
so he talked to me about itquite often. And he had originally said
he wanted to move someplace warm,but he definitely wanted to move to a
medical marijuana friendly state because his backhurt so bad, and he felt that
helped well. A couple of weeksbefore they moved, they actually drove past
(31:18):
my house over to a Bay City, Michigan and looked at a house and
they were like second on the listfor that house, and somebody got it
before them. And then they foundthe place in the Upper Peninsula, and
I remember right, Kelly drove allthe way up there and looked at it
and did everything. Jason didn't evensee the house until they moved up there.
(31:40):
Okay, that's interesting, Yeah,because everything I've read, it seems
like they just one night decided theywere going to leave Indiana. So it
was more planned. No, Iwould I would say that the only one
night they left town would be thenight that they left Michigan and came back
to Indiana. I know that hehad. He had probably looked at twenty
(32:00):
or thirty places to live in sevenor eight states, Tennessee, Colorado.
I mean, he looked all overto find the place that they even found.
I don't even know how they foundit. Laura Frizzo had a very
different take, however, on theCochrane's departure from Indiana. There's something that
(32:25):
brought these people from Indiana to Michigan. And you know, her explanation to
me Kelly's was Jason's got all thesemedical problems. Michigan has medical marijuana and
that's why we came. Well.That never sat well with me, because,
you know, Indiana, where theywere living, is maybe forty miles
or forty minutes from laura Michigan border, where they could have just moved,
(32:52):
you know, forty miles or fortyminutes away, they chose to move six
and a half hours, seven hoursaway, to the upper Peninsula of Michigan.
So I just felt like, youknow, there's got to be something
they're running from. And even asI chatted with Walt, I was skeptical
too, because Laura's right. TheCochrane's house on Mississippi Street, a mere
(33:16):
feet from each of their parents' homes, where they had a thriving business,
was just a forty five minute driveto the state line that separates Indiana from
Lower Michigan. And if the Cochraneswere in massive debt, why abandon a
thriving pool business for a town hundredsof miles away where they know no one.
(33:38):
They could have easily moved to atown on the state line, maintained
their business, and still have accessto medical marijuana for Jason. Despite Walt's
perspective, my instinct was unchanged.Something must have happened in Indiana to drive
(33:59):
them up north. And when Ispoke to Laura the next day, I
quickly learned that we shared that instinctand that we were very likely correct.
So I told my assistant, Isaid, you know, check the internet,
see if there is like any unsolvedhomicides around the time that they moved
(34:19):
up there in that area. Well, sure enough, there's you know,
there's an unsolved homicide in Merrillville twomonths prior to them moving to I remember,
on November fourth of twenty thirteen,one month before Laura Frizzo became the
up's first female chief of police,and two months before the Cochran's moved to
(34:45):
the up, Andrew Fugate was shotand killed just two miles from the Cochrane's
home on Mississippi Street in Meryllville.Andrew, a twenty seven year old Hobert
native, was found in the freezerof his family owned meat plant, Pietech
Meats, where Andrew worked as afood prep and made sausage. Now,
(35:13):
before we go any further, let'saddress the pig in the butcher shop.
The Cochranes raised pigs which they butcheredfor friends, family, and local butcher
shops, and according to Kelly,she and or Jason fed their victims to
those pigs. Piateech Meats was theclosest meat plant to the Cochrane's house and
(35:37):
a meat plant that worked with localfarmers to prepare and sell grass fed organic
meat. Their specialty, according toreviews, was pork. Andrew was murdered
at the Pietech plant sometime between fouram, when surveyor it shows him arriving
(36:00):
at work and seven am when aco worker discovered his body. Nine Dispatch
reported that there was a homicide anda burglary. However, after an exhaustive
search, despite the place being ransacked, not a thing was stolen. Police
(36:22):
also reviewed security video footage from multiplebusinesses surrounding Piotech Meets, and that footage
turned up a mysterious light colored suvtraveling toward Piotech Meets shortly after four am
that morning. The suv parked inpiotex Rear parking lot, and two people
(36:45):
lemerged the video was grainy and recordedfrom a distance, so all that can
be seen in the footage is twofigures exiting the truck and disappearing out of
frame. Ten minutes later, atfour forty five am, the two figures
can be seen returning to the vehicleand eventually speeding out of the parking lot.
(37:08):
In addition to there being no evidenceof an actual robbery, there was
also no fourced entry, meaning whoeverkilled Andrew was more than likely invited into
the plant that morning. The onlyother physical evidence from the murder were the
bullets recovered from Fugate's body, whichbrings us back to Laura Frizzo. And
(37:37):
the interesting part about that, whichwe wouldn't learn until we do the search
WARRN, is that the weapon thatwas used in that homicide in Meryllville had
very distinctive and off brand ammunition,and that is the exact ammunition we found,
(37:57):
you know, when we did thesearch warn in their house with a
weapon to go with it. Sothere's just all these little pieces that,
you know, all these little redflags popping up all over for from all
of these things. So a manwho works in the same industry as Kelly
Cochrane is shot by two unknown suspectsjust two miles from Mississippi Street with the
(38:23):
exact same off brand ammunition used tokill Chris Regan. And then two months
later, the Cochranes randomly move acrossstate lines over six hundred miles away for
no apparent reason at all, andif ander of Fugate was indeed a victim
(38:45):
of Kelly and Jason. That wouldmean, at a maximum, their cooling
off period was only eleven months,So what does that say about their potential
victim count. Kelly was an avidFacebook user. She posted multiple times a
(39:08):
day every day, except for theweek following Chris Regan's murder, when she
didn't post anything all week long.There's some other notable blackouts like this one
in Kelly's Facebook usage. Another exampleis the four days following the murder of
(39:30):
Andrew Fugate. And those aren't theonly patterns and items of interest on her
Facebook page. There's random butterfly pictures, There's random references to feeding their pigs.
There's Kelly's very public interest in aserial killer and pedophile operating in California.
(39:58):
And then there's her multi whole jokesabout she and Jason being cannibals.
(40:20):
I think about you, what you'vedone. I think about you, what
you mean? Come? I said, Towns the party, would you like
to come? But he said no, I can't chance And he smiled,
(40:53):
sill, he smiled. To thinkabout China. What she's done for me
(41:27):
to think about China. She's sosweet. I so do not use the
party. Would you like to go? But she's said, or can't James,
And he smelled of spill. Hesmelled, He slid, want to
(42:07):
I can't get you bar right now. And I hide about me, what
I've done, I think about meand what I become. I said,
(42:32):
Tuna is the party to night tocome. But she see you can't change,
and she spelled, She smiled,smile, she spoke
This is a studio, both andproduction. So Jeremy calls. He says,
I got an idea, Walton,and it was really Jason's only friend
or a good friend. And I'mgoing to have Walt called Kelly and tell
her that Jason left this letter behindsaying, you know, if anything should
happen to me, send this letterto Iron River Police. And I thought,
(00:33):
this is not going to work out. You know, she's going to
know. I mean, she's notstupid, she's you know. So the
FBI did not agree with Jeremy's ideaand thought that was a bad idea and
really didn't think it should happen.Jeremy was pissed. Walt listened to the
(00:54):
FBI and just headed out of townfor work and Jeremy sitting there wayne for
him to show up. So anyhow, they rescheduled it and it worked out.
Okay. It was like a coupledays later, while came back through
town, Walton ended up meeting upwith Jeremy. Jeremy miked him up,
Walt made the call. Wal didan amazing job. So I play the
call and I hear it, andI hear her response, and I just
(01:18):
like the hair stood up on myarms, and I thought, oh my
god, you got her. Oneof the biggest differences in the Keys and
Cochrane cases is technology. Keys wasessentially a Luddite. He knew enough about
technology to fear it, at leastat first. The Cochranes, on the
(01:44):
other hand, lived much of theirlives online. In particular, they were
very active on Facebook, very active. In fact, if Keys's biggest lack
of judgment was online message boards,Kelly's was Facebook. And it's on Facebook
(02:07):
that the Cochranes met Walt Hammerman,Jason's best friend, who eventually turned on
Kelly and set her up with theLetter Roots. Jason and Kelly met Walt
while playing the game Battle Pirates onFacebook. I met Jason through the Facebook
(02:28):
game that we were playing, andI met Kelly through the same game.
But Jason and I just, youknow, we really hit it off.
We started the game at the sametime, basically, so we were learning
together, and our basses were rightnext to each other. And that's one
of the oddities of the whole thing. I start playing the game and out
(02:51):
of the blue, I land inthis sector two forty nine out of five
hundred, right next to his base. It's the only way I met him,
And over the next year or so, we played the game constantly five
six nights a week, maybe seven, and chatting online and visiting in person
(03:13):
and talking on the phone. Andhe didn't really have any other friends.
I didn't really learn that until theday of the funeral. Actually, when
I went to his mom and dad'shouse, his mom was introducing me to
all of his relatives as Jason's Youknow, this is Jason's best friend.
(03:35):
Well, I would have thought thatthere would have been a better friend than
somebody he met on the internet threeyears prior, but that was the case.
Sadly, If Laura Frizzo knows Kellybest, it's fair to say that
Walt Ammerman knew Jason best. Andsince Jason is rarely seen as anything other
(03:58):
than a pond to Kelly or anabuser to her, I wanted to talk
to Walt to get a clearer understandingof who Jason was, what he was
capable of, and what his relationshipwith Kelly actually looked like. For most
of my life, I've listened tobooks on audio tape because I travel all
(04:18):
the time, and I really enjoyedGrisham and Baldasci and Patterson, and it
just felt like the whole time Iwas actually in a book that was better
than they could write. This isWalt, a lifelong fan of crime stories
who suddenly found himself at the centerof one after befriending Jason and Kelly Cochrane
(04:41):
in twenty eleven. It was clearto me that Kelly ran the household,
if you will, Bill's cooking,shopping, finances, decisions we're all went
through Kelly. Jason seemed very hejust really went with what she said,
Uh, non confrontational. Any decisionhad to be made through Kelly. Yeah.
(05:08):
I was going to ask if yougot the sense that he was dependent
on her. I don't think theywere ever going to be separated, you
know, without how they were separated. I guess I should say, you
know, I didn't see them breakingup, and I felt like they were
just meant to be together, andthey were going to be together, and
he needed her and she needed him, and it was it was just two
(05:31):
people that were seemed to be ona path together. And why do you
think she needed him? I thinkI think it was it was somebody she
was controlling the whole time. Ithink she probably controlled him for their entire
relationship, and that's kind of scaryto think of over twelve or thirteen years.
(05:56):
But I think that, you know, what we saw in the end
was probably no different, and itwas throughout. I don't know how it
would be any other way. Idon't think it would change, you know,
I don't. I think you hadto get into that in the beginning
when she was running the show.I guess I never really thought about that,
but that's that's what comes to mymind now. And did he ever
talk to you about his relationship withKelly. He didn't talk about it much.
(06:21):
It just all got back to ifthere was anything about him and Kelly,
it was well, i'd have tosee what she says, or we'll
do whatever she says. And yeah, I don't. I don't know as
you really talked about good or badparts of the relationship. I felt like
he was happy, but I don'tknow if if he was happy. Yeah,
(06:46):
I imagine it's really hard to havea friendship with someone and feel like
it's one way and then find outall this stuff was happening that you weren't
aware of. Yeah, and youknow, obviously the big question that everybody
has that. Everybody wants to knowtwo things. Do you think they actually
killed more people? And I thinkyou touched on it on one of your
other podcasts that the FBI forensics theybasically tore that house apart twice and found
(07:15):
not one speck of anything until shepointed out the demos that she claimed she
tried to get the bullet out ofChristmas head with. Now, I don't
even hunt, I don't. Idon't. You know, gut deer if
you will, but I would challengeeven the best hunter to even drag a
deer to his basement and carve itup and get it out without leaving one
(07:39):
speck of blood. I don't thinkthat you could possibly do that the first
time and do it that good.Yeah, And that's kind of my opinion.
And I you know, it's hardto believe anything she says, but
there have been a few things shesaid after all this that you know,
can kind of be corroborated. Weknow that they actually did raise pigs,
(08:00):
and there's a lot of spectacle,But it seems to me that you know,
if you cut someone up and cannibalizethem, that's probably not the first
time you've done it. Yeah.I mean, the the murder is horrific
on its you know, by itself, but the the ability for any two
(08:20):
people, any one or two peopleto allegedly do what they did. You
know, we don't know exactly howthey did it, but we know the
end result. And that's I justdon't see you doing that the first time.
And that's that's how aggressive you goat it. I assume, just
(08:46):
based on our conversation thus far,that Jason never talked to you about extramarital
relationships that either he or Kelly werehaving. The only the only thing that
he mentioned was the other woman inIndiana that may have started out as the
three of them together and then turnedinto more of of Kelly and her together.
(09:09):
They did talk about that around Christmastime, and it was Kelly bragging
that that, you know, thisis what I got Jason for Christmas or
something like that, and you know, every man needs to be happy,
and and like she introduced this thiswoman into their relationship, and he was
(09:31):
just kind of sitting there smile andI don't know, like you know,
like you know, he didn't evenreally comment on it. So it was
her telling me about it and himjust kind of smiling and didn't really have
anything to say positive or negative aboutit. It was kind of an odd
situation, but that's the only theonly time they talked about anything. That's
(09:52):
interesting because it kind of lends tothe theory that Kelly even did that as
self service rather than actually doing itfor Jason. Very very well, that
makes entire a lot of sense.So how did you find out that they
(10:13):
were under investigation for Chris Regan's disappearance? If I had the timeline right.
Chris disappeared mid October, and Ihad even though they moved five hundred miles
away from me, I was stillin contact with him at least five nights
a week on the Internet playing thegame, and a phone call once a
(10:35):
week or so. Well, thenthere was like three or four weeks where
there was nothing, no contact,no no internet, no phone. I
just assumed, you know, quitefrankly, I assumed maybe their internet got
shot off, where their phones gotshot off, so they weren't calling,
or I didn't know what was up. So he called me eventually sometime in
(11:00):
November, I want to say,and he said, Hey, I just
want you to know we just gotour phones and computers back and that's why
we haven't been online. And thenhe went on to say that apparently somebody
is missing and they think that wehave something to do with it. And
they came and took our phones andcomputers, and they finally brought him back
(11:22):
and I asked what who's missing?And he said, well, I don't
know. I think he worked withKelly, but I don't really know who
he is at all. Now,had he told me that their internet got
shot off, I would have believedthat. But I've always wondered, was
he planning to see that he mightneed help someday over this situation by bringing
(11:46):
it up immediately? I mean,the first time I talked to him in
a month, he's telling me aboutit. It was like, how good
of a friend was I for thatto be brought up in the very first
conversation? This is this is whereI'm at. They're looking at us and
we don't know who it is.Was he trying to cover himself up already,
or you're asking for help to himhow? I don't. I don't know.
(12:09):
It's really it was our angle.And is that something you feel in
hindsight or was that kind of yourinitial reaction that it was odd that he
was sharing that with you. Ohno, no, that's all hindsight.
I mean initial reaction, I waslike, well, I mean, yeah,
I didn't really I don't even knowwhat my reaction was. I was
like, well, that's kind ofodd, but I mean I've been in
(12:31):
Michigan since third grade, and evenin the Lower Peninsula there's there's desolate spots
down here. You go up there, and who knows, somebody could have
just wandered off. I mean,people do go missing. He told me
he didn't have anything to do withit, and I took his word for
it, and it wasn't until sometime later before I really got more curious
(12:54):
about it. Tell me about howyou found out about Jason's death. HI
message with him on a Friday night, the nineteenth of February, and he
said they were going out and wewere talking about the game we were playing,
(13:16):
and it just kind of ended like, well, you know, see
you later, and he left andI remember typing the word peace, and
you know how you can tell onFacebook whether they read your messages or not.
He never opened that, and Igot a text from her the next
(13:37):
day, round four or four thirtyin the afternoon and said, I just
want you to know Jason died lastnight. And I felt that was kind
of an aggressive way to just,you know, seems I don't know.
It really just shocked me. AndI was with my wife at the time,
and she never did really trust Kelly. And as soon as I told
(14:01):
her, she's like, what,she killed him? And I'm like,
I don't even know how you wouldget that from it. I just said
he died. I didn't say iteven how it happened. And she believed
that from the second she heard it, that she killed him somehow, and
I didn't want to text her aboutit anymore. I called her and I'm
like, what, what do youmean, what happened? I just talked
(14:22):
to him last night? She said, I don't know. He started throwing
up and not feeling good and hewas on the bed and I tried to
get him off the bed and Itried to revive him and I couldn't and
he's gone. And it was justlike she wasn't crying when she told me.
She just explained it like she wasreporting it, and that was it.
(14:48):
Saturday. I'll never forget. It'sso funny because you know, before
I did this case. I workedon another case about a serial killer,
and just how cavi Lear Kelly isis really just makes my skin crawl,
because even the previous serial killer seemedto have a lot more understanding of empathy
(15:09):
than she did. And if youlook at her Facebook page on the week
that Jason died, it's like shedidn't even care. Did you see the
picture she posted announcing his death,Yeah, the shirt that he was wearing.
I can't even stop being difficult andtake it up the ass. That's
(15:31):
the picture you're putting over your deadhusband. Really, I don't understand that.
Within hours of Jason's death, Kellybegan vague booking by posting several photos
of Jason, the first of whichwas a photo of him wearing a T
(15:54):
shirt that read, I'm not tryingto be difficult, it just comes naturally.
Stop crying, take it up theass. Kelly eventually cropped out the
bottom half of the shirt, andthen shortly thereafter, she posted an entirely
different picture of Jason. And it'son this picture where she made her official
(16:18):
announcement about his death, somewhere inthe comments section. Yeah, I just
like I'm continually floored by just howbrazen and cocky she is, and all
and all of the posts that shehad around. Then, how am I
going to be move on without mybest friend? It will never be you
(16:40):
know. It's almost like a Bonnieand Clyde thing. Well, and nothing
about it felt genuine. No,And the day of the funeral I didn't
make it to the funeral itself.I was in Wisconsin, but I stopped
at his parents house that they hadthe dinner after there, and his mom
was introducing me to all of hisfamily. Is his best friend. And
(17:03):
oh, by the way, Kelly'supstairs in the bedroom if you'd like to
go visit with her. Okay.So I went up the stairs into the
bedroom that she killed him in,and she said on the bed, and
I stood by the desk and shetalked about it. Yeah, he was
in the bed here and I gothim out. It's like I was in
(17:23):
the room and happened in and shewas just calmly telling me how it was
and where the paramedics came in,and to be that it's just even I'll
never forget that what led you tocontact the FBI. I have to give
all the credit to my wife forthat. I'm not saying I didn't have
(17:48):
thoughts of it, but she wasvery adamant about the fact that I needed
to let them know that he wasgone. And I kind of kicked it
around all day Sunday. And itwas now that I know Laura Frizzlo personally,
I wish I would have called herfirst. But you're thinking about northern
Michigan. You're thinking, I don'teven know who I'm going to call at
(18:11):
this local police office. I'll justcall the FBI number, because I had
researched and found the fire months beforeon the disappearance of Chris Reagan, and
it had the numbers on there,and it said the two most likable suspects
had moved Indiana, and she justwas just insisted you just have to call
(18:34):
him. And I called Monday morning, probably a couple hours before they were
going to do the autopsy, andI said, I don't know if they
did anything. I don't know ifI can't tell you anything about that,
but I know that your suspects,and I know one of them died Saturday.
And right away the FBI agent said, well, how did Jason die.
(18:57):
I didn't say Jason died. Hesaid well, if ful up and
died, it was Jason. Sothat kind of shook me up and said,
well, I don't know how hedied. She said he threw up
and they couldn't save him. Andwithin an hour of that, Kelly was
calling me and saying, yeah,they're postponing the autopsy till Tuesday because they
(19:18):
had a siege of bodies coming overthe weekend. And it wasn't to do
with that. It was it wassimply because the FBI was then in contact
with I'm sure Chief Frizzo and inturn Indiana, and they wanted somebody there
to officially do the autopsy if youwill. Your timing was so fortuitous,
you know, Like I said,I have to I have to give Jen
(19:40):
the credit for that for insisting Ido that, because they very well may
have done a generic if you willautopsy. I'm sure there's different grades of
autopsies, whether you're looking for accidentaldeath or really doing everything. And maybe
the fact that the police officer neededto be there for that type. You
(20:00):
know, you're you're really investigating acrime at that point. So it must
have been strange, to say theleast, making the decision to call and
report this and having that turn intothe FBI asking you to essentially go undercover
(20:23):
with this letter and this phone call. How and that don't it surely wasn't
the FBI that did that part.It was solely detective Ogden and Hobart.
You know, the FBI definitely gavehim my phone number, but the FBI
was really they were of the opinionthat this wouldn't even work. They suggested
(20:45):
that I'd not even make the phonecall, and it weighed on me whether
I should even do it, becauseI mean, I got you know,
in the big picture, you wouldthink you should probably listen to the FBI,
and then this picture it was andthe result was so much better by
listening to Detective Octen because he hadthe plan and it worked. It's just
(21:10):
a surreal experience that I can't evenreally put myself in your shoes for.
Yeah again, I go right,I go back to the fact that I
listened to all these audio books andI felt like I was in a book
the entire time, so where I'mprobably more nervous about it now when I
think about it than I was then, because it just felt like this is
(21:30):
just how it has to happen.I mean, I was so far down
the rabbit hole. I don't wantto say that if I didn't do what
I did, she never would havebeen caught for anything. I don't believe
that for a second. But ifit helped bring some closure to Chris Reagan's
family, that's a good thing.You know. Obviously you guys were at
(21:56):
trial together. But following that phonecall, have you heard Kelly? Oh?
Yeah, I have letters from her. She's called me from prison a
few times. She called me fromIndiana after she pled guilty to killing Jason.
She's sent me the paperwork to fillout that you have to fill out
(22:18):
through the State of Michigan to comevisit an inmate. She would like me
to come visit her, said,you'd like to sit on and talk.
So then the next question is ado I want to? I mean,
part of me will always want togo visit with her because I just want
to say why. But I don'teven think I could believe her. If
(22:42):
I did go, it would probablycreate more questions than I would have answers.
Why do you think she wants tovisit with you? Well, it's
just her probably still wanting to controlthe situation, to try to probably tell
me. You know, you don'treally know the truth. It was really
(23:03):
Jason that was the monster, andyou don't know how hard I had it.
You know, I'm sure it's juststill spinning it to make her look
better than him. And maybe it'smore than that. I don't know.
It's it's a question I'll probably haveforever if I did go? What would
she say? Why does she wantme to go? I mean, she's
(23:25):
asked me a few times, andlike I say, she's actually sent me
the paperwork to fill out to govisitor. It says a lot about her
that you would think she would bepissed at you, but instead she just
wants your attention and to I guess, manipulate your position on things. I
think, So would you go?How do you know? Yeah, you
(23:48):
know, it's a question I've beenasked, and you know my gut instinct
is yes. But if it camedown to it, I don't know,
right you you was a reporter type, I could see. You know,
you have no ties to it otherthan the fascination of the fact that it's
a it's a great story, sad, but but in intriguing myself, it's
(24:10):
a whole there's you know, Imean, I mean I've had you know,
how long has it been, andyou know, it's been four years
since it happened and here we arestill talking about it. I don't know
if it will ever end for thecuriosity of the public to you know,
it's a weird society we're in,but it's what we're in. Yeah.
(24:33):
I struggle doing this because it isfascinating, but I just constantly am reminded
that these are real people and thisus have had real ramifications and it's a
strange position to be in. Iwant to talk for a second. We
started off talking about Jason. Iwant to mention that one of the saddest
things for me is his family.I was pretty close with his family.
(24:59):
Um. I would play yuker athis mom and dad's house with his mom
and Kelly in the kitchen and hisdad's and watching Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune,
and you know, it was Iwas welcome there. And they're very
upset with the way things turned out. And what I mean by that is
(25:22):
they probably had enough to arrest Kellyafter the autopsy for killing Jason. I
know the toxicology wasn't back yet,but I believe they probably had enough to
do that, and they maybe theyshould have, but I know that they
wanted to solve the other case also, so in doing that, they gave
(25:42):
the body back to Kelly and shehad it creamated. His family did not
want the body cremated, so they'reupset. And I don't want to say
they're blaming me, because quite frankly, the Hobart police didn't call me two
or three days after the funeral,and they wouldn't have asked me whether they
(26:03):
should give the body back anyway.That was just all on their decision.
But yeah, I don't have anycontact with his family anymore. That's kind
of depressing. It's like, Idon't I don't know. I mean,
maybe I shouldn't care, but they'regood people, you know, and their
son or brother did something horrible.But it's just there's so many emotions around
(26:29):
the whole thing, you know,you can't ever forget. Well, it
must be really hard because I think, you know, we all kind of
process loss when we have someone toshare it with, and for you,
that's that was your only point ofsharing that loss was Jason's family, right,
And I guess there were lives tothem because I had talked to them
(26:52):
a number of times after the lettercall and before she was arrested, and
it came out that I made theletter call. You know, they were
you know what was in the letter? I don't know. They were asking
me as much as Kelly were,and I had to tell them all I
didn't know. So they really wonderedwhat he would have wrote to me.
(27:17):
So I'm sure that part of theiranger is the fact that I lied to
him too, And you know,that's that's a different angle to think about.
To forget about Kelly, think abouta mom and a dad thinking their
son wrote this letter. I wonderwhat he said, and you know,
I guess that's something that they're stillupset about. Well. I hope in
(27:41):
time they'll understand and forgive you,because I think, Yeah, an odd
thing was as I came out ofthe courtroom, Kelly's dad sat through the
testimony of me, because Kelly's momwas directly before me, and her dad
(28:07):
was in the courtroom and he stayedfor mine. And when I walked out,
he came up to me, andI had no idea what he was
going to say. I was Iwas really concerned about that, and He
just took my hand and he said, I just want you to know that
you had to do what you hadto do. And it was okay for
a guy to say that to somebodywho helped get his daughter arrested and more
(28:33):
than likely it was going to goto prison for life. It was a
relief off my shoulders to think thathe was okay with what I did.
I don't know how how to eventell you how much set that was good,
and I could be wrong, butI get the sense that despite everything
(28:57):
that happened because of what you did, I get the sense that you still
feel guilty about it. I guessit's not guilty that she's there, it's
just the whole I think I feelmore guilty for his family being. You
know, I wish that things couldhave happened quicker and they could have got
(29:21):
there their son back to do withwhat they wanted to. But like I
said, I had no control ofthat. It's just a Maybe I do
feel guilty, but it's just it'sjust something that happened. I mean,
nobody can feel what I felt.Do you think, And I know this
(29:47):
is a weird question, but Ithink you'll understand. Do you think Jason
was a good person. Um.I would say growing up he was probably
a very good person, and Ithink getting with her changed him. And
(30:10):
I don't know how I can reallysay it was a good person if he
was really capable of taking part insuch a crime, but I think in
the early ages of life, I'dsay he was. Since the Cochrane's befriended
(30:32):
Walt while still living on Mississippi Streetin Merrillville, I was eager to ask
what he knew about their seemingly abruptmove to the Upper Peninsula in January of
twenty fourteen. For months and monthshe was researching. He did extensive research
on places they wanted to move to, and I traveled for a living,
(30:56):
so he talked to me about itquite often. And he had originally said
he wanted to move someplace warm,but he definitely wanted to move to a
medical marijuana friendly state because his backhurt so bad, and he felt that
helped well. A couple of weeksbefore they moved, they actually drove past
(31:18):
my house over to a Bay City, Michigan and looked at a house and
they were like second on the listfor that house, and somebody got it
before them. And then they foundthe place in the Upper Peninsula, and
I remember right, Kelly drove allthe way up there and looked at it
and did everything. Jason didn't evensee the house until they moved up there.
(31:40):
Okay, that's interesting, Yeah,because everything I've read, it seems
like they just one night decided theywere going to leave Indiana. So it
was more planned. No, Iwould I would say that the only one
night they left town would be thenight that they left Michigan and came back
to Indiana. I know that hehad. He had probably looked at twenty
(32:00):
or thirty places to live in sevenor eight states, Tennessee, Colorado.
I mean, he looked all overto find the place that they even found.
I don't even know how they foundit. Laura Frizzo had a very
different take, however, on theCochrane's departure from Indiana. There's something that
(32:25):
brought these people from Indiana to Michigan. And you know, her explanation to
me Kelly's was Jason's got all thesemedical problems. Michigan has medical marijuana and
that's why we came. Well.That never sat well with me, because,
you know, Indiana, where theywere living, is maybe forty miles
or forty minutes from laura Michigan border, where they could have just moved,
(32:52):
you know, forty miles or fortyminutes away, they chose to move six
and a half hours, seven hoursaway, to the upper Peninsula of Michigan.
So I just felt like, youknow, there's got to be something
they're running from. And even asI chatted with Walt, I was skeptical
too, because Laura's right. TheCochrane's house on Mississippi Street, a mere
(33:16):
feet from each of their parents' homes, where they had a thriving business,
was just a forty five minute driveto the state line that separates Indiana from
Lower Michigan. And if the Cochraneswere in massive debt, why abandon a
thriving pool business for a town hundredsof miles away where they know no one.
(33:38):
They could have easily moved to atown on the state line, maintained
their business, and still have accessto medical marijuana for Jason. Despite Walt's
perspective, my instinct was unchanged.Something must have happened in Indiana to drive
(33:59):
them up north. And when Ispoke to Laura the next day, I
quickly learned that we shared that instinctand that we were very likely correct.
So I told my assistant, Isaid, you know, check the internet,
see if there is like any unsolvedhomicides around the time that they moved
(34:19):
up there in that area. Well, sure enough, there's you know,
there's an unsolved homicide in Merrillville twomonths prior to them moving to I remember,
on November fourth of twenty thirteen,one month before Laura Frizzo became the
up's first female chief of police,and two months before the Cochran's moved to
(34:45):
the up, Andrew Fugate was shotand killed just two miles from the Cochrane's
home on Mississippi Street in Meryllville.Andrew, a twenty seven year old Hobert
native, was found in the freezerof his family owned meat plant, Pietech
Meats, where Andrew worked as afood prep and made sausage. Now,
(35:13):
before we go any further, let'saddress the pig in the butcher shop.
The Cochranes raised pigs which they butcheredfor friends, family, and local butcher
shops, and according to Kelly,she and or Jason fed their victims to
those pigs. Piateech Meats was theclosest meat plant to the Cochrane's house and
(35:37):
a meat plant that worked with localfarmers to prepare and sell grass fed organic
meat. Their specialty, according toreviews, was pork. Andrew was murdered
at the Pietech plant sometime between fouram, when surveyor it shows him arriving
(36:00):
at work and seven am when aco worker discovered his body. Nine Dispatch
reported that there was a homicide anda burglary. However, after an exhaustive
search, despite the place being ransacked, not a thing was stolen. Police
(36:22):
also reviewed security video footage from multiplebusinesses surrounding Piotech Meets, and that footage
turned up a mysterious light colored suvtraveling toward Piotech Meets shortly after four am
that morning. The suv parked inpiotex Rear parking lot, and two people
(36:45):
lemerged the video was grainy and recordedfrom a distance, so all that can
be seen in the footage is twofigures exiting the truck and disappearing out of
frame. Ten minutes later, atfour forty five am, the two figures
can be seen returning to the vehicleand eventually speeding out of the parking lot.
(37:08):
In addition to there being no evidenceof an actual robbery, there was
also no fourced entry, meaning whoeverkilled Andrew was more than likely invited into
the plant that morning. The onlyother physical evidence from the murder were the
bullets recovered from Fugate's body, whichbrings us back to Laura Frizzo. And
(37:37):
the interesting part about that, whichwe wouldn't learn until we do the search
WARRN, is that the weapon thatwas used in that homicide in Meryllville had
very distinctive and off brand ammunition,and that is the exact ammunition we found,
(37:57):
you know, when we did thesearch warn in their house with a
weapon to go with it. Sothere's just all these little pieces that,
you know, all these little redflags popping up all over for from all
of these things. So a manwho works in the same industry as Kelly
Cochrane is shot by two unknown suspectsjust two miles from Mississippi Street with the
(38:23):
exact same off brand ammunition used tokill Chris Regan. And then two months
later, the Cochranes randomly move acrossstate lines over six hundred miles away for
no apparent reason at all, andif ander of Fugate was indeed a victim
(38:45):
of Kelly and Jason. That wouldmean, at a maximum, their cooling
off period was only eleven months,So what does that say about their potential
victim count. Kelly was an avidFacebook user. She posted multiple times a
(39:08):
day every day, except for theweek following Chris Regan's murder, when she
didn't post anything all week long.There's some other notable blackouts like this one
in Kelly's Facebook usage. Another exampleis the four days following the murder of
(39:30):
Andrew Fugate. And those aren't theonly patterns and items of interest on her
Facebook page. There's random butterfly pictures, There's random references to feeding their pigs.
There's Kelly's very public interest in aserial killer and pedophile operating in California.
(39:58):
And then there's her multi whole jokesabout she and Jason being cannibals.
(40:20):
I think about you, what you'vedone. I think about you, what
you mean? Come? I said, Towns the party, would you like
to come? But he said no, I can't chance And he smiled,
(40:53):
sill, he smiled. To thinkabout China. What she's done for me
(41:27):
to think about China. She's sosweet. I so do not use the
party. Would you like to go? But she's said, or can't James,
And he smelled of spill. Hesmelled, He slid, want to
(42:07):
I can't get you bar right now. And I hide about me, what
I've done, I think about meand what I become. I said,
(42:32):
Tuna is the party to night tocome. But she see you can't change,
and she spelled, She smiled,smile, she spoke
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