July 1, 2025 • 27 mins
On this episode of The Rewrite, I’m joined by powerhouse attorney and fierce advocate Morgan Mouchette—Partner and Vice Chair of the Matrimonial & Family Law group at Blank Rome LLP.
Morgan doesn’t just know the law—she understands the emotional landscape of divorce and the real-life impact of every legal decision. In this episode, we talk about:
- What really matters when you’re navigating divorce
- How to Have the Mindset to Achieve Positive Outcomes
- Why having the right lawyer can change everything️
- How to Emerge from the process as a whole
Whether you’re preparing for divorce or already in it, Morgan’s insights are empowering, practical, and full of grace.
Connect with Morgan:
@morganmouchette
www.blankrome.com/people/morgan-e-mouchette
Morgan doesn’t just know the law—she understands the emotional landscape of divorce and the real-life impact of every legal decision. In this episode, we talk about:
- What really matters when you’re navigating divorce
- How to Have the Mindset to Achieve Positive Outcomes
- Why having the right lawyer can change everything️
- How to Emerge from the process as a whole
Whether you’re preparing for divorce or already in it, Morgan’s insights are empowering, practical, and full of grace.
Connect with Morgan:
@morganmouchette
www.blankrome.com/people/morgan-e-mouchette
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to The Rewrite, a podcast about divorce, choice and
new beginnings. I'm your host, Wendy Sloan, former TV producer,
mom of two and one sweet golden retriever. This is
a space for real talk about the moments that break us,
the choices that define us, and the power we have
to begin again. You'll hear personal stories, heartfelt insights, and
(00:22):
honest conversations about healing relationships and reclaiming your life one
choice at a time. I'll be joined by experts in divorce, finance,
mental health, wellness and more and everything you need to
support your next chapter. The most powerful chapters might be
the ones you write next. Let's begin your rewrite together.
This episode is brought to in part by the Needle
(00:44):
Kuda Law Firm guidance that moves lives forward Today.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm the Rewrite.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I'm joined by someone who brings not only legal expertise,
but deep insight into the emotional and complexities of divorce
and family restructuring. Morgan Musche is partner and vice chair
of Matrimonia and Family Law Practice Group at Blank Rome.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Good morning, Wendy, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm so happy you're here. There's so much that you
and I.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I feel like we're on the same path in a way,
me doing this podcast, you guiding your clients. But I
want to start with what first. What drew you to
matrimonia law in the first place? What inspired you?
Speaker 4 (01:20):
So when I was in law school, I was a
summer associate at my law firm, Blank Rome. I thought
I would be a litigator, but I wasn't exactly sure
where I would end up, and to be honest, I
was not looking at matrimonial law at all. I met
one of the then co chairs of our group, a partner,
at a social event, and she was telling me about
(01:41):
the different clients they have. We service very high net
worth individuals, business owners, entertainers, athletes, celebrities, and I was intrigued,
and so I decided to try the work and ultimately
found it was a really great fit for me. I
really enjoyed working with people, helping people, also dealing with
(02:01):
very complex financial issues, complex family systems, and kind of
operating at the practicing at a very high level but
for individual clients while still in big law. So I've
been at Blank Rome the entirety of my career, practicing
almost fifteen years now, and I really do love the practice.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I love that let's talk about let me to dive
right into it. Let's talk about the mindset to achieve
a positive outcome. Not easy and not easy to emerge
whole after divorce, going through divorce from start to finish,
and then so on after that.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
So I think it sounds easy right when you say, oh,
just maintain a positive mindset, But it's very, very difficult,
and sometimes I think clients feel almost impossible to do
in the midst of a very difficult process like divorce.
But I think there's various things that people can keep
in mind throughout the process to guide them so that
(02:58):
they're always thinking about the final chapter of this terrible process,
the divorce itself, and what's coming afterwards for them, because
no matter what, no matter how bad it is, it
will end. The divorce will end, and you'll have a
new start, and it's up to you to set yourself
up as well as you possibly can for success in
that new chapter, for you, for your children, for your
(03:20):
extended family, and your finances, but also for you as
a person. And so I try when I'm counseling my
clients to guide them back to that to their idea
of what it is they want their life to look
like on the other side of the divorce, and use
that to help inform how we proceed through the process itself.
(03:41):
Because as you know, and I'm sure as many of
your listeners know, divorces can take many different forms. There
can be litigated divorces in front of a judge where
you're making applications, asking the court to make real time
decisions regarding you, your money, your finances, where you live,
really intense, very stressful, and very expensive process. And then
(04:03):
there can be divorces where people mediate or where they
do collaborative divorce. In my practice, the majority of my
practice is.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Related to.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Resolving matters between lawyers, so usual many uncontested divorces with
contested issues, so where you may not be on the
same page day one when you hire your lawyer, but
through you know, good counsel on both sides, you can
negotiate a fair and reasonable resolution without ever having to
(04:34):
go to court. And so all of those, all of
those processes are extremely stressful and expensive, and you know,
people have to keep in mind what's their ultimate goal
as they go through that not.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Easy and I like that you said that you try
to stay out of the court system, because.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Well, it's not so much that I try to stay
out of the court system. It's really I depending the
goals of the client and what they really need. Sometimes
you absolutely have to have a judge come in and
make a decision because you can't keep circling each other.
So it's really case dependent. I do have quite a
few litigated cases, but the majority of the cases, and
even the litigated cases usually are resolved at the end
(05:17):
of the day through the negotiation.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Of terms between the lawyers.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
So even if you end up in court at some
point because you have no other choice, and that's part
of what the strategy is that you need, it's always
better to try to have a resolution between the two
of you. Many judges I practice primarily in Manhattan, and
many judges will say things to clients like, you know,
you can either create a settlement. You can either resolve
(05:44):
your case with a hatchet or with a scalpel. I'm
the hatchet and you and your lawyers are the scalpel.
I can only do so many things, and I don't
know the intricacies of you, your family, your children.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
It's always better to use a scalpel rather than a hatchet.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Oh, I like that. I like that a lot.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
What are some of the biggest legal miss takes people
make sure in divorce, especially women?
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Legal mistakes?
Speaker 4 (06:05):
So I would say it's a bit of a flow
chart of mistakes.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
So first, if you don't hire a lawyer.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Who is listening to you and has a communication style
that works for you, you will not understand what you
are actually entitled to and what is a reasonable position
for you to be taking. Because when you walk into
your lawyer's office that day one, you may think I
want it all right, and that's what most people think,
(06:33):
but that is not necessarily realistic and very very few people,
if anybody, ends up with one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Of what they want in a divorce.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
So first, you need to have an advocate who's telling
you the truth about what your entitlements are under the law.
And then it's creating your set of priorities that are
realistic within that. So you need a lawyer who's not
just saying to you, yes, yes, whatever you want.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
You want to run to court.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
About this issue or I perhaps your lawyer doesn't really
think that you'll be successful, but you're at insistent that
that's the thing you want to do. You need someone
to tell you the truth. And if you decide that
that's what you want to do anyway, that's fine, and
your lawyer will ultimately likely follow your direction. But you
need someone to be telling you where is the best
time and money spent. And so I think the first
(07:21):
mistake is saying I need a divorce. Okay, first thing
I need is a shark. Well, if you can't really
understand how if that person is not communicating effectively with you, you're
not going to be able to manage your own expectations
and create your clear list of priorities. So I think
the biggest mistake that people make is not having a
sound strategy to achieve their goals within the reality of
(07:44):
the law.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
People just gets fixated, and women, I think.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Have a I mean, custody is an extremely well financial
was your question, but it kind of goes hand in hand.
I think it's very, very difficult to change the structure
of your family, change the power structure in your family
regarding your children, change the power structure regarding finances, and
so I think many women in my experience are less
(08:13):
likely to say I'll take whatever you offer me is
that most of my clients don't do that. Most of
my clients say, I want I want all of it,
I want the highest level of support, I want all
full custody, I want all the you know, fifty percent
of every asset, and I want fifty percent of the business.
And there are some things that are reasonable and rational,
and that's a good strategy to have, and then sometimes
(08:33):
it's not realistic. So at some point you have to
if what you want to do is preserve assets at
the end of your divorce, consider what is the realistic
goal and then hone your your strategy to that.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
It's interesting that you know that most people say I
want a shark right off the bat, like I need
a shark, shark, shark.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
But that's what you said is absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
But you don't necessarily need that shark and not be
able to follow that sharp That might be too much.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
So what first thing you do finding?
Speaker 1 (09:06):
I think the most important thing when you're going through
this process is finding the right attorney for you, finding
the right attorney that fits. So what's your advice for
someone out there to look for the right attorney for them?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Well, I think you should have many have several consults
with different types of lawyers, you can get a sense
of how they impart information to you. And they explain
to you what the law is and the state where
you live. Do they explain it in a way that's clear.
Can they tell you what the next steps will be?
Can you actually hear what they're saying right, because sometimes
(09:40):
people the words are coming out, but they're not you're
not absorbing them.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Well, there's so many things happening, and your whole world's
about to change, your whole life's about to change, and
it's it's a lot.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
It's a lot, and I and I often suggest that
people start, you know, to take notes on those calls
and to start, you know, organizing themselves when it comes
to finances so that they can spend less time kind
of explaining things in a meandering way, but to get
very direct and try to understand what's the lawyer's theory
about how they like to handle cases, you know, and
(10:11):
get a sense of them as a as a person
and as an advocate. And then I think, don't be
necessarily swayed by.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
What you hear.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Different lawyer's reputations might be. In my practice, it's a
pretty small sandbox people know each other and different you know,
obviously different lawyers get different reputations. But when you get
on the phone with them and you tell them the
specifics of your case, I think you just focus on
the advice they're giving you. And then obviously you have
to choose an attorney that is appropriate for you from
(10:43):
a financial perspective.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And so if you can't.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Necessarily afford to hire the twelve hundred dollars an hour lawyer,
that's going to have impact on how much you talk
to that person, how much you're comfortable engaging them, or
are you just going to try to do it, you know,
as quickly as possible to try to try to avoid
incurring fees.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So you have to be realistic.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
And I know for a.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Fact going through it myself a long time ago, that
it's easy to just want to vent an email and
text you're a lawyer over and over and over again.
Then you get lined up with this monster bill that
you really can't afford. How do you approach emotionally charged
situations where like children are involved.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Well, I think the first with a client, it's really
about first hearing them and hearing what it is that
they are actually concerned about if there's a safety concern
with respect to the children, if it's that the children
are articulating that they don't want to go, if it's
really about you, you know, the client, the client themselves are.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Not comfortable because it's a big.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Change, and it's really listening to the client, hearing their
concerns and addressing them one by one as much as
you possibly can, explaining to them the ways that certain
protocols can be put in place to address their concerns.
And so part of that on the client side is
(12:06):
before you get on the phone with your lawyer, sit
down and think about what is it that you What
is it that you are actually solving for, right that
you want to solve for in this charge situation, if
it's one parent wants to take the child on a vacation,
maybe it's to a place that you're not comfortable, what
is it that can you articulate to your lawyer what
(12:27):
is your actual concern so your lawyer can then try
to address that. If it's I just don't ever want
the kids to go on vacation with them, that may
be realistic depending on the circumstances. If there's a safety
concern or a drug or alcohol concern, or domestic violence concern,
or maybe it's really you need certain guardrails put in place,
and those are the things that lawyers can creatively come
(12:49):
up with solutions.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
And that's what I try to do.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
I try to come up with some creative solutions to
address people's real and very pertinent issues and concerns with
respect to their kids, but also to move the move
the matter forward, because.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Working with your clients change the way you think about relationships, boundaries,
all that stuff, self worth everything. It can't be easy,
right to take all this stuff at home at night
with you, right.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
So it's really interesting, Wendy, because.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
I talk to a lot of aspiring matrimonial lawyers and
young lawyers who are interested in doing this work, and
I and I say, it's really not It's not work
for everyone. This is not the right practice for everyone,
because you it's very important that that you show up
for your clients when they need you.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Kind of it's.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
It's a job that doesn't stop, right, because people's lives
don't stop, and things happen all the time. But you
do need to be able to have boundaries for yourself,
for your own life. I'm lucky enough I met. I
met my husband in law school, so I've been a
divorce lawyer the whole time we've been together. He's also
(14:01):
a lawyer, so you know, and I will say that
my parents. My parents are divorced and divorced when I
was quite young, so I do have a perspective of
you know, people make certain choices. I guess maybe it
makes me say to my friends and my family, but
very very sure before you get married, that's really the thing.
(14:22):
Don't leap into any of it, because it's the most
important financial decision you'll ever make.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
But I don't.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
I think people people live their lives, and sometimes it
works and sometimes it doesn't. And if it doesn't work,
it's better to say to yourself, I would like to
move forward. My kids will be my kids will be happier.
I will be happier, and even though the life won't
look exactly the way you envisioned it, it can be
so much better when you are no longer living in
(14:52):
an unhappy environment, a stressful environment.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
So it doesn't really, I guess I don't.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Really. I feel it changes my view of relationships because
I still hope and try to have people have their
marriages work to the extent that people call me and
I say, you know, it sounds to me like you
guys just need to have a therapist.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
It's different to a horse lawyer. You know our temperature.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
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Speaker 1 (15:19):
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Speaker 2 (16:36):
We're back.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I want to back up to what she said, before
you grew up your family, your parents were divorced, Did
that play any role in any of this?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And you going into matrimonial law?
Speaker 4 (16:51):
So I don't actually think so, although my parents think,
you know, it's maybe I'm having some Freudian experience, But no,
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
I I not, like I said, I didn't set out
to do this work.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
I just find it personally very gratifying, and I do
feel that I can honestly tell clients that their children
will still thrive right, you know, even though their lives
will not look the same on the daily basis as
you had originally envisioned when you had them, they can thrive.
They will thrive, You will thrive.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And I did notice, you know, the.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
How much happier ultimately, how much happier people are when
they're no longer living.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
In an unhappy situation.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
So I've seen, I've seen the positives on the other side,
so I can say that to people. But it didn't
it didn't inform, it didn't like lead to my doing
this work per se. But I do think it helps
me tell parents, you know, all is not lost. You know,
there's so many opportunities, and your kids will appreciate, appreciate
and recognize that you too have to be happy in
(18:02):
your own life right and when there's an example for
them of prioritizing your well being as well, that then
fighting in the house and arguing in the house and
all this other stuff, that the kids will be better off.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
What are your thoughts on pre nups.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I think prenups are very very important. Not everyone needs
a prenup, but everyone should know what a prenup can do.
So prenups in many states are the best way to
protect for example, family assets, inherited assets, real estate, or
(18:39):
business interests that are owned before marriage. So even if
you are not you know, extraordinarily wealthy, there's still may
be assets that could be protected from a divorce or
protected in upon your death in a prenuptial agreement. And
so I just think that people the same way that
(19:02):
people have to get counseling. You know, when you when
you buy a house, you have to meet with the
mortgage officer and understand your obligations. When you're getting married,
you should understand the financial obligations that you're agreeing to
when you get married. And so people really should do
some basic research. And if you have significant assets or
you have a business, it's really imperative that you speak
(19:22):
with a family lawyer to understand prenuptial agreements in your state,
how they're viewed, and how you can protect yourself.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
It's interesting because we.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Had this conversation on the podcast a couple of months
ago about talking about prenups and best to do it
when you're in the happy stage, when you're like when
you're when you're dating or you're thinking about getting engaged
in getting married and going down that when everything's like good,
not when you're already like married, and then you're like, oh, well,
we need to get a prenap and things are starting
to go.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
You know, hey, buyer, this is just you know, for
each of us, our own protection, our own safety.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
That's that's absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
And actually, when you do a prenuptial agreement, it's very
in New York, for example, it's very different than the
type of document that you would sign after you're legally married.
You can have more protections in a document that signed
before you're married, because no legal rights related to marriage
has vested in either person. So you can make in
New York at least, you can make an agreement that
(20:20):
is crafted to your specific situation, and it doesn't have
to be a document that's all or nothing. It can
be a document that's protecting the person who has lesser assets,
ensuring they have a house, for example, ensuring they get
a certain amount of money each year of marriage, or
if they have children, spelling out inheritance rights upon death,
what are you going to receive? So it's not always
(20:43):
this doom and gloom document that people think it will be.
And what agreement that you would sign after you're married
is actually a post nuptial agreement, which usually has a
lot of different legal requirements than a pre nuptial agreement.
Much harder to do and quite unplace, isn't, because at
that point you are bargaining away rights that you already
(21:07):
have as a married person, and that can feel quite
different than before you're married. But don't wait until right
before you get married to.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Talk about a prenoe, right, talk about it when you're
in the relationship and you know you're moving in that direction.
I think it's a smart thing. So I just lost
my whole train of thought. So there was there's so
much great information in this in this interview.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Divorce is not the end.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
It's what would you say, it's a new beginning. I
know that sounds really trite, but no, I mean it's true.
First of all, objectively, it's true. Your life is changing dramatically.
Where you live will change, what your assets will be
will change, your kids will change. But I find that
(21:55):
people need to sometimes be reminded, And this is where
having a great support system is so important for people
going through a divorce, whether it's mental health support through
a therapist, your friends, your family, envisioning what your life
can look like, and then taking advantage of some of
(22:15):
those incremental changes which might feel quite painful in the
process of a divorce. But recognizing the benefits in them. So,
for example, if there's a you know, a really overworked,
kind of underappreciated parent who during the marriage, everything was
on that person, you know, maintaining the calendar, or taking
(22:36):
the kids to all the activities, signing up for everything,
the doctor, the school, the school, nurse everything. I'm sure
there's lots of listeners who can relate to that. And
the thought of a shared custody schedule where the kids
are no longer with you one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Of the time, is you know, devastating.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, it's devastating, you can't even imagine, right, but as it's.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
Happening, because the likelihood is, you know, absence certain circumstances,
there's going to be shared custody and in many places
up to fifty to fifty custody. When that time is happening,
I say to those parents, you know you you would
only you were only dreaming of the flexibility to have
a day to yourself, to do what was important to you,
(23:21):
to take care of yourself, to take a nap, right
to exercise, right to do all the things that you've
put yourself last for so many years.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
And now you don't have to do that.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
It's not because you want your kids to not be
with you on that night, but if the kids are
not going to be with you on that night, you
can start to rebuild your focus on yourself and your
own well being. And so I try to encourage my
clients who really struggle with that to fill their time
(23:54):
with things that are meaningful for them.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
And they will eventually be able.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
To travel, travel without their kids and have a full
life travel with their kids when they have them. But
it's all part of balance, you know, And I think
everyone needs a good balance, and divorce in some ways
gives you back some balance that maybe you didn't have
during your marriage.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Absolutely, and also I love what you said, and we
talked about this at the very beginning. Is that talk
about like this is you are going to get to
the end of this. It's not going to be easy.
There's going to be storms and waves and horrible things,
and it's going to be it's going to be tough.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
No one's going to tell you it's going to be easy.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
But we're going to get to the other side and
we're going to live our best life and we're and
I think that that's so important.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
That was never told to me like I could never focus.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I could never see that when I was I mean
back when I got divorced a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
There were no podcasts, there were no like life coaches,
there were no things I didn't know about it.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I didn't even I knew one person who was going
through it. So I couldn't envision my life living my
best life. And I am living my best life. And
I chose to raise my kids and not get in
another relationship and do things my way. But I didn't
see it at the time. So I like that you
say that you you you know, you put your clients
in the right mindset. Mindset so important, especially.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
This absolutely, and I think listen, just because someone says, oh,
you should focus on doing this and focus on that,
doesn't mean that people can are capable in the moment.
But I think it's important to say the thing, say
the things that so even if someone is not ready
to do that, they're not ready to lean into kind
(25:37):
of seizing the freedom that comes with a divorce, because
they're really still in the period of hurt and disappointment and.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Rage, all of which are perfectly fair.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
A good a good counselor This is where you, for
a lawyer is both an advocate and a counselor, right
so the lawyer also our role is to counsel you
through this process and tell you the things that maybe
you don't want to hear, but that ultimately it's part
of the perspective that you're paying for when you routine
(26:15):
when you retain your lawyer.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Absolutely so much good information. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Morgan Mouche, partner and vice chair of Matrimony and Family
Law Practice Group at Blank Rome.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Definitely want to have you back again. Thank you so
much for being here. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Wendy Nito Kuda Divorce and family laws attorneys have guided
Connecticut and New York families through complex divorce actions, contested
child custody, and alimony disputes for over thirty years. Their
Connecticut and New York attorneys have extensive experience in family
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(27:16):
call two O three five five seven nine five zero
zero
Welcome to The Rewrite, a podcast about divorce, choice and
new beginnings. I'm your host, Wendy Sloan, former TV producer,
mom of two and one sweet golden retriever. This is
a space for real talk about the moments that break us,
the choices that define us, and the power we have
to begin again. You'll hear personal stories, heartfelt insights, and
(00:22):
honest conversations about healing relationships and reclaiming your life one
choice at a time. I'll be joined by experts in divorce, finance,
mental health, wellness and more and everything you need to
support your next chapter. The most powerful chapters might be
the ones you write next. Let's begin your rewrite together.
This episode is brought to in part by the Needle
(00:44):
Kuda Law Firm guidance that moves lives forward Today.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm the Rewrite.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I'm joined by someone who brings not only legal expertise,
but deep insight into the emotional and complexities of divorce
and family restructuring. Morgan Musche is partner and vice chair
of Matrimonia and Family Law Practice Group at Blank Rome.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Good morning, Wendy, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm so happy you're here. There's so much that you
and I.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I feel like we're on the same path in a way,
me doing this podcast, you guiding your clients. But I
want to start with what first. What drew you to
matrimonia law in the first place? What inspired you?
Speaker 4 (01:20):
So when I was in law school, I was a
summer associate at my law firm, Blank Rome. I thought
I would be a litigator, but I wasn't exactly sure
where I would end up, and to be honest, I
was not looking at matrimonial law at all. I met
one of the then co chairs of our group, a partner,
at a social event, and she was telling me about
(01:41):
the different clients they have. We service very high net
worth individuals, business owners, entertainers, athletes, celebrities, and I was intrigued,
and so I decided to try the work and ultimately
found it was a really great fit for me. I
really enjoyed working with people, helping people, also dealing with
(02:01):
very complex financial issues, complex family systems, and kind of
operating at the practicing at a very high level but
for individual clients while still in big law. So I've
been at Blank Rome the entirety of my career, practicing
almost fifteen years now, and I really do love the practice.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I love that let's talk about let me to dive
right into it. Let's talk about the mindset to achieve
a positive outcome. Not easy and not easy to emerge
whole after divorce, going through divorce from start to finish,
and then so on after that.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
So I think it sounds easy right when you say, oh,
just maintain a positive mindset, But it's very, very difficult,
and sometimes I think clients feel almost impossible to do
in the midst of a very difficult process like divorce.
But I think there's various things that people can keep
in mind throughout the process to guide them so that
(02:58):
they're always thinking about the final chapter of this terrible process,
the divorce itself, and what's coming afterwards for them, because
no matter what, no matter how bad it is, it
will end. The divorce will end, and you'll have a
new start, and it's up to you to set yourself
up as well as you possibly can for success in
that new chapter, for you, for your children, for your
(03:20):
extended family, and your finances, but also for you as
a person. And so I try when I'm counseling my
clients to guide them back to that to their idea
of what it is they want their life to look
like on the other side of the divorce, and use
that to help inform how we proceed through the process itself.
(03:41):
Because as you know, and I'm sure as many of
your listeners know, divorces can take many different forms. There
can be litigated divorces in front of a judge where
you're making applications, asking the court to make real time
decisions regarding you, your money, your finances, where you live,
really intense, very stressful, and very expensive process. And then
(04:03):
there can be divorces where people mediate or where they
do collaborative divorce. In my practice, the majority of my
practice is.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Related to.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Resolving matters between lawyers, so usual many uncontested divorces with
contested issues, so where you may not be on the
same page day one when you hire your lawyer, but
through you know, good counsel on both sides, you can
negotiate a fair and reasonable resolution without ever having to
(04:34):
go to court. And so all of those, all of
those processes are extremely stressful and expensive, and you know,
people have to keep in mind what's their ultimate goal
as they go through that not.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Easy and I like that you said that you try
to stay out of the court system, because.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Well, it's not so much that I try to stay
out of the court system. It's really I depending the
goals of the client and what they really need. Sometimes
you absolutely have to have a judge come in and
make a decision because you can't keep circling each other.
So it's really case dependent. I do have quite a
few litigated cases, but the majority of the cases, and
even the litigated cases usually are resolved at the end
(05:17):
of the day through the negotiation.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Of terms between the lawyers.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
So even if you end up in court at some
point because you have no other choice, and that's part
of what the strategy is that you need, it's always
better to try to have a resolution between the two
of you. Many judges I practice primarily in Manhattan, and
many judges will say things to clients like, you know,
you can either create a settlement. You can either resolve
(05:44):
your case with a hatchet or with a scalpel. I'm
the hatchet and you and your lawyers are the scalpel.
I can only do so many things, and I don't
know the intricacies of you, your family, your children.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
It's always better to use a scalpel rather than a hatchet.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Oh, I like that. I like that a lot.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
What are some of the biggest legal miss takes people
make sure in divorce, especially women?
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Legal mistakes?
Speaker 4 (06:05):
So I would say it's a bit of a flow
chart of mistakes.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
So first, if you don't hire a lawyer.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Who is listening to you and has a communication style
that works for you, you will not understand what you
are actually entitled to and what is a reasonable position
for you to be taking. Because when you walk into
your lawyer's office that day one, you may think I
want it all right, and that's what most people think,
(06:33):
but that is not necessarily realistic and very very few people,
if anybody, ends up with one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Of what they want in a divorce.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
So first, you need to have an advocate who's telling
you the truth about what your entitlements are under the law.
And then it's creating your set of priorities that are
realistic within that. So you need a lawyer who's not
just saying to you, yes, yes, whatever you want.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
You want to run to court.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
About this issue or I perhaps your lawyer doesn't really
think that you'll be successful, but you're at insistent that
that's the thing you want to do. You need someone
to tell you the truth. And if you decide that
that's what you want to do anyway, that's fine, and
your lawyer will ultimately likely follow your direction. But you
need someone to be telling you where is the best
time and money spent. And so I think the first
(07:21):
mistake is saying I need a divorce. Okay, first thing
I need is a shark. Well, if you can't really
understand how if that person is not communicating effectively with you, you're
not going to be able to manage your own expectations
and create your clear list of priorities. So I think
the biggest mistake that people make is not having a
sound strategy to achieve their goals within the reality of
(07:44):
the law.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
People just gets fixated, and women, I think.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Have a I mean, custody is an extremely well financial
was your question, but it kind of goes hand in hand.
I think it's very, very difficult to change the structure
of your family, change the power structure in your family
regarding your children, change the power structure regarding finances, and
so I think many women in my experience are less
(08:13):
likely to say I'll take whatever you offer me is
that most of my clients don't do that. Most of
my clients say, I want I want all of it,
I want the highest level of support, I want all
full custody, I want all the you know, fifty percent
of every asset, and I want fifty percent of the business.
And there are some things that are reasonable and rational,
and that's a good strategy to have, and then sometimes
(08:33):
it's not realistic. So at some point you have to
if what you want to do is preserve assets at
the end of your divorce, consider what is the realistic
goal and then hone your your strategy to that.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
It's interesting that you know that most people say I
want a shark right off the bat, like I need
a shark, shark, shark.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
But that's what you said is absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
But you don't necessarily need that shark and not be
able to follow that sharp That might be too much.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
So what first thing you do finding?
Speaker 1 (09:06):
I think the most important thing when you're going through
this process is finding the right attorney for you, finding
the right attorney that fits. So what's your advice for
someone out there to look for the right attorney for them?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Well, I think you should have many have several consults
with different types of lawyers, you can get a sense
of how they impart information to you. And they explain
to you what the law is and the state where
you live. Do they explain it in a way that's clear.
Can they tell you what the next steps will be?
Can you actually hear what they're saying right, because sometimes
(09:40):
people the words are coming out, but they're not you're
not absorbing them.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Well, there's so many things happening, and your whole world's
about to change, your whole life's about to change, and
it's it's a lot.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
It's a lot, and I and I often suggest that
people start, you know, to take notes on those calls
and to start, you know, organizing themselves when it comes
to finances so that they can spend less time kind
of explaining things in a meandering way, but to get
very direct and try to understand what's the lawyer's theory
about how they like to handle cases, you know, and
(10:11):
get a sense of them as a as a person
and as an advocate. And then I think, don't be
necessarily swayed by.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
What you hear.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Different lawyer's reputations might be. In my practice, it's a
pretty small sandbox people know each other and different you know,
obviously different lawyers get different reputations. But when you get
on the phone with them and you tell them the
specifics of your case, I think you just focus on
the advice they're giving you. And then obviously you have
to choose an attorney that is appropriate for you from
(10:43):
a financial perspective.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And so if you can't.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Necessarily afford to hire the twelve hundred dollars an hour lawyer,
that's going to have impact on how much you talk
to that person, how much you're comfortable engaging them, or
are you just going to try to do it, you know,
as quickly as possible to try to try to avoid
incurring fees.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So you have to be realistic.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
And I know for a.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Fact going through it myself a long time ago, that
it's easy to just want to vent an email and
text you're a lawyer over and over and over again.
Then you get lined up with this monster bill that
you really can't afford. How do you approach emotionally charged
situations where like children are involved.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Well, I think the first with a client, it's really
about first hearing them and hearing what it is that
they are actually concerned about if there's a safety concern
with respect to the children, if it's that the children
are articulating that they don't want to go, if it's
really about you, you know, the client, the client themselves are.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Not comfortable because it's a big.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Change, and it's really listening to the client, hearing their
concerns and addressing them one by one as much as
you possibly can, explaining to them the ways that certain
protocols can be put in place to address their concerns.
And so part of that on the client side is
(12:06):
before you get on the phone with your lawyer, sit
down and think about what is it that you What
is it that you are actually solving for, right that
you want to solve for in this charge situation, if
it's one parent wants to take the child on a vacation,
maybe it's to a place that you're not comfortable, what
is it that can you articulate to your lawyer what
(12:27):
is your actual concern so your lawyer can then try
to address that. If it's I just don't ever want
the kids to go on vacation with them, that may
be realistic depending on the circumstances. If there's a safety
concern or a drug or alcohol concern, or domestic violence concern,
or maybe it's really you need certain guardrails put in place,
and those are the things that lawyers can creatively come
(12:49):
up with solutions.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
And that's what I try to do.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
I try to come up with some creative solutions to
address people's real and very pertinent issues and concerns with
respect to their kids, but also to move the move
the matter forward, because.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Working with your clients change the way you think about relationships, boundaries,
all that stuff, self worth everything. It can't be easy,
right to take all this stuff at home at night
with you, right.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
So it's really interesting, Wendy, because.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
I talk to a lot of aspiring matrimonial lawyers and
young lawyers who are interested in doing this work, and
I and I say, it's really not It's not work
for everyone. This is not the right practice for everyone,
because you it's very important that that you show up
for your clients when they need you.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Kind of it's.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
It's a job that doesn't stop, right, because people's lives
don't stop, and things happen all the time. But you
do need to be able to have boundaries for yourself,
for your own life. I'm lucky enough I met. I
met my husband in law school, so I've been a
divorce lawyer the whole time we've been together. He's also
(14:01):
a lawyer, so you know, and I will say that
my parents. My parents are divorced and divorced when I
was quite young, so I do have a perspective of
you know, people make certain choices. I guess maybe it
makes me say to my friends and my family, but
very very sure before you get married, that's really the thing.
(14:22):
Don't leap into any of it, because it's the most
important financial decision you'll ever make.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
But I don't.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
I think people people live their lives, and sometimes it
works and sometimes it doesn't. And if it doesn't work,
it's better to say to yourself, I would like to
move forward. My kids will be my kids will be happier.
I will be happier, and even though the life won't
look exactly the way you envisioned it, it can be
so much better when you are no longer living in
(14:52):
an unhappy environment, a stressful environment.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
So it doesn't really, I guess I don't.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Really. I feel it changes my view of relationships because
I still hope and try to have people have their
marriages work to the extent that people call me and
I say, you know, it sounds to me like you
guys just need to have a therapist.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
It's different to a horse lawyer. You know our temperature.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Say we're see a quick break for one of our responsor.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
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(16:02):
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Speaker 2 (16:36):
We're back.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I want to back up to what she said, before
you grew up your family, your parents were divorced, Did
that play any role in any of this?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And you going into matrimonial law?
Speaker 4 (16:51):
So I don't actually think so, although my parents think,
you know, it's maybe I'm having some Freudian experience, But no,
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
I I not, like I said, I didn't set out
to do this work.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
I just find it personally very gratifying, and I do
feel that I can honestly tell clients that their children
will still thrive right, you know, even though their lives
will not look the same on the daily basis as
you had originally envisioned when you had them, they can thrive.
They will thrive, You will thrive.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And I did notice, you know, the.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
How much happier ultimately, how much happier people are when
they're no longer living.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
In an unhappy situation.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
So I've seen, I've seen the positives on the other side,
so I can say that to people. But it didn't
it didn't inform, it didn't like lead to my doing
this work per se. But I do think it helps
me tell parents, you know, all is not lost. You know,
there's so many opportunities, and your kids will appreciate, appreciate
and recognize that you too have to be happy in
(18:02):
your own life right and when there's an example for
them of prioritizing your well being as well, that then
fighting in the house and arguing in the house and
all this other stuff, that the kids will be better off.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
What are your thoughts on pre nups.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I think prenups are very very important. Not everyone needs
a prenup, but everyone should know what a prenup can do.
So prenups in many states are the best way to
protect for example, family assets, inherited assets, real estate, or
(18:39):
business interests that are owned before marriage. So even if
you are not you know, extraordinarily wealthy, there's still may
be assets that could be protected from a divorce or
protected in upon your death in a prenuptial agreement. And
so I just think that people the same way that
(19:02):
people have to get counseling. You know, when you when
you buy a house, you have to meet with the
mortgage officer and understand your obligations. When you're getting married,
you should understand the financial obligations that you're agreeing to
when you get married. And so people really should do
some basic research. And if you have significant assets or
you have a business, it's really imperative that you speak
(19:22):
with a family lawyer to understand prenuptial agreements in your state,
how they're viewed, and how you can protect yourself.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
It's interesting because we.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Had this conversation on the podcast a couple of months
ago about talking about prenups and best to do it
when you're in the happy stage, when you're like when
you're when you're dating or you're thinking about getting engaged
in getting married and going down that when everything's like good,
not when you're already like married, and then you're like, oh, well,
we need to get a prenap and things are starting
to go.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
You know, hey, buyer, this is just you know, for
each of us, our own protection, our own safety.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
That's that's absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
And actually, when you do a prenuptial agreement, it's very
in New York, for example, it's very different than the
type of document that you would sign after you're legally married.
You can have more protections in a document that signed
before you're married, because no legal rights related to marriage
has vested in either person. So you can make in
New York at least, you can make an agreement that
(20:20):
is crafted to your specific situation, and it doesn't have
to be a document that's all or nothing. It can
be a document that's protecting the person who has lesser assets,
ensuring they have a house, for example, ensuring they get
a certain amount of money each year of marriage, or
if they have children, spelling out inheritance rights upon death,
what are you going to receive? So it's not always
(20:43):
this doom and gloom document that people think it will be.
And what agreement that you would sign after you're married
is actually a post nuptial agreement, which usually has a
lot of different legal requirements than a pre nuptial agreement.
Much harder to do and quite unplace, isn't, because at
that point you are bargaining away rights that you already
(21:07):
have as a married person, and that can feel quite
different than before you're married. But don't wait until right
before you get married to.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Talk about a prenoe, right, talk about it when you're
in the relationship and you know you're moving in that direction.
I think it's a smart thing. So I just lost
my whole train of thought. So there was there's so
much great information in this in this interview.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Divorce is not the end.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
It's what would you say, it's a new beginning. I
know that sounds really trite, but no, I mean it's true.
First of all, objectively, it's true. Your life is changing dramatically.
Where you live will change, what your assets will be
will change, your kids will change. But I find that
(21:55):
people need to sometimes be reminded, And this is where
having a great support system is so important for people
going through a divorce, whether it's mental health support through
a therapist, your friends, your family, envisioning what your life
can look like, and then taking advantage of some of
(22:15):
those incremental changes which might feel quite painful in the
process of a divorce. But recognizing the benefits in them. So,
for example, if there's a you know, a really overworked,
kind of underappreciated parent who during the marriage, everything was
on that person, you know, maintaining the calendar, or taking
(22:36):
the kids to all the activities, signing up for everything,
the doctor, the school, the school, nurse everything. I'm sure
there's lots of listeners who can relate to that. And
the thought of a shared custody schedule where the kids
are no longer with you one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Of the time, is you know, devastating.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, it's devastating, you can't even imagine, right, but as it's.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
Happening, because the likelihood is, you know, absence certain circumstances,
there's going to be shared custody and in many places
up to fifty to fifty custody. When that time is happening,
I say to those parents, you know you you would
only you were only dreaming of the flexibility to have
a day to yourself, to do what was important to you,
(23:21):
to take care of yourself, to take a nap, right
to exercise, right to do all the things that you've
put yourself last for so many years.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
And now you don't have to do that.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
It's not because you want your kids to not be
with you on that night, but if the kids are
not going to be with you on that night, you
can start to rebuild your focus on yourself and your
own well being. And so I try to encourage my
clients who really struggle with that to fill their time
(23:54):
with things that are meaningful for them.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
And they will eventually be able.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
To travel, travel without their kids and have a full
life travel with their kids when they have them. But
it's all part of balance, you know, And I think
everyone needs a good balance, and divorce in some ways
gives you back some balance that maybe you didn't have
during your marriage.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Absolutely, and also I love what you said, and we
talked about this at the very beginning. Is that talk
about like this is you are going to get to
the end of this. It's not going to be easy.
There's going to be storms and waves and horrible things,
and it's going to be it's going to be tough.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
No one's going to tell you it's going to be easy.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
But we're going to get to the other side and
we're going to live our best life and we're and
I think that that's so important.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
That was never told to me like I could never focus.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I could never see that when I was I mean
back when I got divorced a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
There were no podcasts, there were no like life coaches,
there were no things I didn't know about it.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I didn't even I knew one person who was going
through it. So I couldn't envision my life living my
best life. And I am living my best life. And
I chose to raise my kids and not get in
another relationship and do things my way. But I didn't
see it at the time. So I like that you
say that you you you know, you put your clients
in the right mindset. Mindset so important, especially.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
This absolutely, and I think listen, just because someone says, oh,
you should focus on doing this and focus on that,
doesn't mean that people can are capable in the moment.
But I think it's important to say the thing, say
the things that so even if someone is not ready
to do that, they're not ready to lean into kind
(25:37):
of seizing the freedom that comes with a divorce, because
they're really still in the period of hurt and disappointment and.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Rage, all of which are perfectly fair.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
A good a good counselor This is where you, for
a lawyer is both an advocate and a counselor, right
so the lawyer also our role is to counsel you
through this process and tell you the things that maybe
you don't want to hear, but that ultimately it's part
of the perspective that you're paying for when you routine
(26:15):
when you retain your lawyer.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Absolutely so much good information. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Morgan Mouche, partner and vice chair of Matrimony and Family
Law Practice Group at Blank Rome.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Definitely want to have you back again. Thank you so
much for being here. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Wendy Nito Kuda Divorce and family laws attorneys have guided
Connecticut and New York families through complex divorce actions, contested
child custody, and alimony disputes for over thirty years. Their
Connecticut and New York attorneys have extensive experience in family
matters involving substance abuse, domestic violence, mental illness, and many
other X factors that can complicate a divorce. Their attorneys
(26:54):
a deptly manage privacy and reputation concerns inherit to public
divorce proceedings and related exposure for their ultra high net
worth clients. Find your new path forward, define your post
divorce family, and secure an enforceable agreement to protect your
future with Needlecuda ACT now put the strength of their
team behind you. Visit them at needlecuda dot com or
(27:16):
call two O three five five seven nine five zero
zero
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