Performance is a behaviour...not an outcome - episode 2 - Honour your commitment to those you lead

In this conversation Mark and I discuss the challenge of establishing real clarity of the objectives that a person or group wants to set for themselves. We then discuss how easy it is for the leader to fall into the trap of letting them off the hook.

We discuss ways that leaders can lean into the discomfort of the difficult conversation by reframing the awkwardness as a 'duty' and an act of care rather than a point of conflict. We also explore how leaders can frame the expectations in terms of how people interact with each other to minimise conflict and create a 'high challenge - high support' environment.

Mark and I are available to support groups or individuals on their leadership and coaching excellence journey. Please reach out to [e-mail] to shape a bespoke package.

You can get 25% discount to access Mark's online learning space to immerse yourself in all things PDS using this code PBNO25

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-talent-equation-podcast--2186775/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
A great Here we go, Here we go. Sorry I
didn't press record, so I'll press record. We're getting used
to this new software. My bad, right, So Mark, let's
we're gonna do a quick recap from last week because
there was stuff that we didn't quite get to finish
because we've got cut off a little bit, so we
need to do a recap.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
We do a recap every week.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Also, it's probably worth mentioning to everybody that we've actually
changed the name of the podcast. We did our pilot
episode and we decided, actually, we're moving it on. So
actually our podcast is now called Performances of Behavior not
on an Outcome, which is obviously a central theme of the
whole PDS mantra, but it's also something that I want
to talk about. So I think it might be worth
dwelling on that a little bit during this episode, because

(00:44):
I think we need to introduce that construct a little bit. However,
let's recap to the previous episode, which, if people are
looking for it, is called it Depends or Does It,
which was our little cheeky wink, nudge nudge to some
obvious conversations that have gone on in the past. But
you are curious, I know to know how we're getting
on with the puppy.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yes, So in the last episode, the first episode, which
was an intro, so we should start having more meat
and context. Now we've shared what it is we picked
up on Stuart mentioned about getting a puppy, and but
we deep dive into that of what do we need
to do before we commit to something to eliminate the

(01:28):
gray to ensure actually before the zest of excitement. Actually
there's meat too, Do I know what I'm getting myself into?
What is the level of commitment using uaes and parameters
that you know we go through later on. So we
just talked about and go back into that first episode,
cause it's worth a good listen into what we need

(01:50):
to do to set up success for the person that
wants to commit to something or an agreement that you
want to make. Whether you're a leader, manager or a coach,
a parent, no difference. So we talked through about, well,
hang on a minute, you said you want this, okay,
so have you thought about the level of commitment, actions,
behaviors and lifestyle change you need to do in order

(02:11):
to commit to what you said? And we discuss that.
So now we're going to discuss keeping into getting the
puppy that your son now has the puppy Stewart, and
we've set the agreements up so there isn't any gray
which listened to the first episode for that. So now
the Sun hasn't committed to what was pre agreed. So

(02:36):
we're here now. Now what are the common elements that
people do, whether you're a manager, you're a coach, you're
a parent, you're a teacher, when someone doesn't do what
we commit to. So for me, there's two elements to
this is the first trip up is we have that
clarity at the beginning, so there's so many loopholes they go, oh,
I thought you meant this or oh, or we leave

(02:59):
it because we think, oh, we haven't got time for
that today. It's easy for me just to do it,
and we leave it so often, and then we have
the interaction when we're now frustrated or annoyed or we
have too much sympathy, where we go, oh, never mind,
they committed too much are doing anyway, which is not
effective in selling up agreements. So we got to this

(03:21):
place now that we have done the clarity beforehand, and
now someone hasn't committed to what they said they were
going to do. It's the process to go through. So
I use this in senior management and middle management in corporate,
also within coaches athletes. Coach to coach, coach to athlete
makes no difference. So the first mistake people do is

(03:44):
they don't set themselves up into the right mindset state
before they start the interaction. Now not to say we're
not in the dream boat world and we can control
our state to the ideal every time, but what we're
saying is, I'm now doing a self check. How is
my state? Am I affected to start this interaction? Because
if I'm not, I've already set up failure for the

(04:06):
interaction and the second element want to go Now I'm acceptable,
and if I'm not very good at that, learn how
to do that, which we may discuss in other episodes. Stuart.
Now I say I'm acceptable, I've got to ask myself
what is success for me before I start this conversation,
because it's a bit like the Stephen Covey begin with.
The end in mind is if I haven't gone and

(04:27):
if I just want to vent, if I just want
to tell off, that is not success for me. Success
for me should be if we use a scenario. I
want to understand what prevented that person from committing to
what they said and identify the source. Then agree a
strategy for success, but importantly not to own the problem.

(04:50):
To ensure they still own what they agree to and
they're involved in effective dialogue of the solution. Me not
to take over This is so importance to it. So
first first interaction, what we must do is ask them,
can you taught me through and use any words that

(05:12):
you feel are company me. Can you taught me through
or remind me what we agreed, or can you talk
through what happened this morning? But do it in a calm, effective,
inquisitive way. Not doing it, I'm finding fault now. Now.
The reason why I'm asking and not reminding is I
want them to own it and I want them to
communicate with me. The opposite, which I don't feel is effective,

(05:35):
is remember you said or you said you were going
to now you can kind of get a nod back,
or now we're starting a bit of a barrier conversation.
I need to find an excuse. But if I put
my inquisitive can you just taught me through what you
agreed or taught me through what happened this morning, will
remind me what we agreed on this and give them

(05:57):
space to answer. Initially, this will be very uncomfortable, but
now they have to take responsibility. But they'll start to
realize after you've gone through this the first time, this
is not a taling off, This is not a fault finding.
This is a finding out the reasons why and coming
up with an effective solution. So that's the first bit, Stuart,

(06:21):
cool with that on just the clarity of those key steps.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yes, And obviously we're using the case study of the
acquisition of a pet as our mechanism to talk about
this because this, this didn't happen in real life in
any way at all. You know, this, this is a
completely made up, fictitious scenario that hasn't got like ongoing

(06:47):
consequences that I live with on a daily basis in
any way. So now you've reminded me of of our
kind of like principles here. I'm reflecting a little around
the point you said right at the start, which is
not getting clarity of intention and not creating that pre

(07:10):
agreement around what was going to be you know, kind
of acceptable and acceptable kind of level of commitment to
whatever it is we said we're going to do, so
what Just to sort of broaden this a little bit,
in any walk of life, as you quite likely point out,
you know, whether it's parenting or management, or coaching or whatever,

(07:31):
or coaching in management or whatever it might be, in
any walk of life. I think this is probably one
of the mistakes people make the most, which is not
spending the time really working through what it is that
person wants and then what they need to do in
order to bring about that objective, whatever that objective is,

(07:55):
and then really working through what the realities of what
would be required in order to achieve that objective. And
I think the realities are really important because as you
were describing the this notion of you know, when you
start to understand the why, what were the barriers that
prevented the individual from honoring their commitment? And we to

(08:17):
use that phrase honoring their commitment their commitment, because we're
just a guide. We're a guide by the side. They're
honoring their commitment and we're reminding them of their commitment,
you know, or we're helping them remember their commitment, if
you like. But the process is that often I can
imagine that individuals will come up with a whole load

(08:40):
of reasons as to why that wasn't possible. Now, some
of them may be beyond their control, in which case
we can then bring them into the reality framing. Oh,
we've got some new realities that we've got to deal with,
and we'll build a new action plan around those realities
to mitigate. But originally, because we've done a bit of that,
even if it was imaginary, we'd create an we don't
we sort of created an imaginary reality, you know, of

(09:04):
potential barriers to actually achieving the objective that some people
Sometimes people call that a pre mortem almost, you know,
kind of like pre working out what might go wrong
in order to create the reality. What you can do
by doing that framing is you know you've sort of
you've pre to a certain extent, you've pre identified the

(09:24):
potential pitfalls. So that means then if somebody comes back
and says, oh, well this happened, this happens, hang on
a second. We actually worked on that. We we thought
that through.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, don't aget. We still put that back to them
as a question. So this is the important element. It's
very easy to take over to remind them of what
we discussed what's critical is that we do not do that.
What's chrisical is that we put it back on them.
And this is the game changer. So you're absolutely right
sture the fact and please listen to that first episode.

(09:58):
The point of what if the point of permissions. So
we're looking at the potential obstacles. We're looking, Okay, what
if this happens? What are we going to do? What
are you going to do? But permissions is if you don't,
what are we agreeing? What can I say to you?
What support do you need? Who do you need to
share this with to make sure you get the support
and change you need. So we're doing as much future

(10:19):
proofing as we can. So now we get to the
point is when we're asking, remind me what we agree
If we use that language again, you can use whatever
works for you and appropriate, and we give them the
space to answer. Now common elements to this. I have
this all the time when I'm mentoring coaches and managers
all around the world. They're not used to somebody holding

(10:40):
them accountable in a firm, fair and friendly way immediately
as opposed to leaving it in an in finding out.
So I use my action review process, which we may
get into another chapter. I know you'll get through it
on the members area when you get their steward is
it's an awesome framework for people to make good decisions
live for them. But also it's a really good framework

(11:01):
to reflect on actions because we don't miss anything. So
if I was to use that in this scenario, once
I've said, oh, you know, I said i'd walk my
dog every morning, dad, that says okay, yeah, uh, and
talk to me about this morning. So what happened? So

(11:21):
we're not doing it a challenge. You're telling our flight
finding and they go, oh, yeah, the alarm went off
and I just it was snooze. I just wept. I
was just tired and I just put my head down
and it woke up again. I was too late and
I just had to grab and go to school. So
that could be a common reason as an example in
that context, that's going to be really common. So what

(11:43):
we need to get to is what's the source. So
so okay, so what time did you go to bed?
So we're looking contextually as a mentor or the supporter,
what time did you go to bed? Honestly, what time
did you not lay in your bed? Looking at your phone.
What time was you light off your phone and your
eyes were closed and you go, oh yeah, about one
in the morning. You know there was this really good thing.

(12:04):
I was playing a game or speaking of Sarah and
you go okay, so how many hours sleep did you get? Five?
And how what we worked? Out of many hours sleep?
You need about nine? Okay? So is it surprise why
you woke up and you just wanted to go about
to sleep again? So do we want that to happen continually? No? Right,

(12:27):
So let's talk to some strategies to prevent this from
happening again, because I know there was no intention, but
what are and that's the judgment now and go what
are the reasons why you got that dog? What are
the reasons why we had these agreements? If you want
to choose to do that, then fine. If you think
you don't need to, it says okay, So let's talk
about now a strategy to prevent this from happening again.

(12:50):
Talk to me, what do you think. Let's look at
some options. So what options have we got now to
set up success and get them to explore some options
and if they miss one and go so, well, how
about this? So the one you've explored some options, says, right, well,
which one's going to work for us? Which one can
we commit to? Which one are we going to go for?

(13:11):
And so, right, Dad, I'm going to go for By
nine pm, I'm going to start calming down on the
internet on the phone, and then at ten I'm going
to make sure my head's down, lights off so I
can get some sleep. Right, what help do you need
with that? Any permissions? So if I see you on
your phone still past nine, what can I say to you?

(13:33):
Shall we come up with a word, so the common
word always used Stuart for these type of things, pineapple
or you know something that's just a fun word, but
it's something we can say. But then the other element
is is who do you need to share that with
to help you be successful? Oh, my sister, my mom,
my girlfriend, because she's the one that's texting me, So
to share with them the why you're doing it? Great,

(13:55):
because this is going to help brilliant, So remind me
what we've agreed now. And then player last is they
tell us and we just clarify the what ifs and
the permissions and then we just this punch hand touch
says great, we got this and there's no we're walking
away with a positive solution that they have play a
last is they're the people. The person that's going to

(14:17):
do it confirms what have agreed. Last, we don't remind them.
It's got to come from them and we're just listening.
Is that all the detail there is? I suppose they
miss something or what about this? What word do we
use for the permissions? If they share all that, but
they haven't shared who they're going to communicate with? So
who do you need to communicate with? Mum, sister and

(14:38):
my girlfriend because she's the one texts me, great, when
are you going to do that? By I'm going to
do that by five pm today? Great, Right, we're on it.
Bang and it's done and we're closing the loop and
everyone's walking away positive. Now, the second time you do that,
in any scenario, whether it's about the dog or not,
the interaction is going to be a bit more powerful

(14:58):
and effective and if affected, because now they know this
is a conversation of evaluation, reflection. This is not telling
off Now if it continues now, we've got to have
that conversation to go or hang on a minute. We've
agreed this, but you're still not committing to it. So
what is it now? We may need to have and

(15:19):
I've had it with a lot of coaches and senior
managers where it may be uncomfortable to say, Look, what
you're doing now is you're saying you want to do
it because it makes sense, and it all makes sense
to all of us. But what you're not doing is
driving the discipline you need to commit to something when
your mood is not with you in that moment, but

(15:40):
the mood is with you now, and it's that discipline
that you must commit to even when you don't want
to do it, even when there's a shortcave, even when
you don't feel like it. That is the difference between
success and failure. So we've got to be driving on
this discipline to make the contextual change of change is
not easy. How am I going to remind myself off?
You know, whether it's a reminder on the phone, something

(16:02):
you got on the wall, remember the why, remember what
we've agreed. But it will always bore down to the
discipline of committing to the action when you don't feel
like it. And the more we do that, the better
we build back to the mental resilience. Stewart, we speak
about back to the opposite of building that and not bullying,
of getting people to understand this is transformational for my life.
It may be me getting up to take my dog

(16:24):
for a walk, but that's me choosing to take action
on something I don't feel like in the time. And
that's the difference between words to action. It's the difference
between We know that actually actions comes before motivation. So
we've seen enough and I've experienced it with so many
people that when you don't feel like something, set a
simple task to complete, have the discipline to complete it,

(16:47):
and the chemicals or reaction you get from that will
stimulate motivation. So don't wait for motivation, drive the discipline
of action that will stimulate a mini bit of motivation,
then you take it to the next step. So, as
an overview, Stewart, is there anything to unpicked there or
anything resonates in that.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
Two things occurred to me that I'd be curious to
hear from you on which is so Firstly that that
process is obviously relatively simple and relatively quick. But I'm
just thinking of discomfort and some people would feel uncomfortable

(17:27):
with having that kind of a conversation with somebody else.
So it could be a peer, it could be somebody
that you're coaching in sport or business or life or
whatever it is. It could be you know, a parental relationship.
Even some I know some parents who would have difficulty
having that kind of conversation with their children, you know,

(17:50):
without it spiraling into conflict or you know, the child saying,
oh God, you don't you know this that and the other,
Or they might feel as if they're being coerced on
manipulated because you're being so kind of methodical in your
language and this, that and the other. So the discomfort
with even having a conversation such as this, like, how
do you overcome that that sort of I mean, I

(18:13):
know you sort of led to that, which is doing
it once, doing it again becomes sort of a bit
more of a normalized thing. But because this might be
so alien to somebody, what advice do you have for
somebody who is sort of just embarking on this.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
So there's some key critical elements of this is one
is this is about building culture. This fits into building
the culture that where many people trip up. So there's
a few things we need to do. One element is
develop our own mindset to understand, make sure we prime
and pre agree real clarity with permissions when we set

(18:48):
this agreement up. And like you say, Stuart, an example
would be where it's challenging is if you're the assistant
coach and you're seeking permission from a head coach, when
you set the agreement up to challenge as that head
coach if they don't do what they've just agreed, they're
going to do a middle management speaking and challenging a
senior manager. And sometimes it can be peer can be

(19:10):
challenged again when we think, oh, this person's I'm not
sure this is going to go well. But if you
set that why up, You set that permission up and
then understand that if you do not commit to what
you've just pre agreed, you and now are you are
now unacceptable within that relationship and that agreement, it's you

(19:31):
that is unacceptable. So when you have that in your mind,
you're saying, right, I've got choices. Now we're back to
the ARP again. We've got choices. Now I can choose
to avoid or I can choose to commit with excellence,
doing the best acount with what I have in a
present to my part of this agreement so I'm going

(19:52):
to go for it. Now, I can't control the reaction
of the other person, but what it can control is
me setting up success, me doing my part. Now, the
other element before that is when you agree these let
everybody know. Whether it's in a family or within a business,
within a sport, makes no context of an education. Let

(20:12):
everybody know. Look, if we agree things the only way
unless it's something really easy, like oh, you can eat
two donuts instead of one, you know, and they like donuts,
that kind of thing. But if it's a change, it goes.
This is going to be different to what I'm used
to doing. This is going to be a level of
I've got to now consciously make a change that I

(20:32):
may not feel I have time for or want to
in the moment. Get to understand that it's very difficult
to do it on your own. So the reason why
we're selling these agreements up with Clarity is to set
up success so we know we regress. Who doesn't regress.
Everyone regresses at some point, especially with something new, not
through intention. It's just we're human beings, right, We're not robots.

(20:54):
So if we're saying look, if we're saying we want success,
part of that success is your supporter supporting you. Support
doesn't always mean an arm around the shoulder. Support often
means holding you accountable in a supportive way to what
you agreed and honoring what you said, the permission you
gave me and asked me to do in these moments.

(21:16):
That's the what it's in the permissions. I do. Something
that linked at this stewart with players and athletes in
a team so often with the rule of two, which
again we may talk about another time, is that peer
challenge and support. So what we do often even though
we share it and everyone sits in a room or
on the picture of the coy, this is all great

(21:38):
at any age. Often people won't do it because they
think that persons you're going to tell me to get
lost in the moment when they're not in a good place.
So one of the tools I use is, and it's
a good idea to use with any of these with
people adults of any age, is once we've agreed it,
we buddy people up or in twos and threes, and
we know whether we're on a picture of court or apartment,

(22:00):
you're the people that are most likely to interact and
support and challenge each other on these pre agreements. So
all you say is say, imagine, I'm Sarah and I've said, look,
my work on to everyone is such and such. Here's
a permissions degrease. If I don't do this, this is
what you can say to me. And I say that
to Julie for example, in these moments, I say to Julie, Julie,

(22:23):
I want you to follow through on your part, even
if I don't feel like I'm giving you a permission
to do that, and say it directly clarity. So there's
no great What that often does It opens the door
for that person. Oh, she said she wants me to
do that in these moments. Okay, well I'm going to
go for it. Now, here's the important part. When you
go for it, you've got to be looking for Now,

(22:44):
if you're the rule of three, as a senior manager
or anybody else around or peers, you're looking for is
a response from a person that is receiving the remind
me what we agreed or whatever the challenge is, and
we're looking for their response.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Now.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
If there is spons is unacceptable, we've got to follow
through again. We can't say hey, no, And if we're
the peers are around, we've got to follow through again.
Now if that's heated and it just goes nowhere and
we go right, okay, we move on. We always close
a loop, So we always, whether it's an hour later,
half an hour later, a day later, the first opportunity

(23:21):
when we're in a more calm state, we have to
close a loop. We have to go back to that
person and say, let's just talk about what happened yesterday
or that morning, and let's go through to understand what
prevented us being successful and what we pre agreed. So
now we're having that conversation again using the same framework
about what just happened and how can we make that

(23:42):
more successful? Now, then we close the loop again. So
we're always closing a loop, but we're doing it in
a relentless and patient way. Support Now it may be
not always, but it may be back to we spoke
about in the previous chat, is we may be we
set up expectations of too high for that person or
people within their capability. Yeah, I'll definitely be able to

(24:06):
accept feedback in this moment or be challenged by this
person to anybody, But actually in a moment they've never
accepted feedback when they've been in that state, they've never
accepted anything from this particular person because they just don't
like them. They think they're beneath them. So maybe it's
a step too far for them at this point. But
by closing that loop, and sometimes I've had coaches where

(24:29):
they need a poor players in and they manage that.
The same with managers. We're saying, Okay, well we can
do better next time, so let's learn from it, and
let's agree, and let's follow through again, so we don't
give up on it. This is important thing. We close
a loop, we do it in the same process and
we commit again and that's when we see the change.
And this is where for me, this is one of
the elements that builds culture, and this is why building

(24:52):
culture is very uncomfortable, very ugly at times, can be smooth,
but these are the key critical animents not many people
talk about the can make them break the type environment
you want to build.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Now, this is this is something I think I wanted
to say. This was the other part of the kind
of reflection or thing that I observed was I think
it's John Amichi said, or I've definitely heard him say
that culture is the aggregation of behaviors that you're prepared
to tolerate now, and he talks a lot about the

(25:26):
fact that you know, if you tolerate certain things, then
that will basically become your culture. So if you don't
want that to become your culture, then you shouldn't tolerate it.
But this point of and I think this is a
nice sort of segue into little talking a little bit
about performances of behavior on outcome. So if culture is
downstream from behavior or essentially is an aggregate, an aggregation
of behaviors, and and we know then that behave. You

(25:49):
know that if we want performance behaviors leading them hopefully
to outcomes that we're not always in control of. But
that's what we're trying to achieve, right, We build a
culture through through behave years leading to performance leading to outcomes.
The issue though, is how does somebody spot when they're

(26:09):
the problem? So, for example, if I've been given if I,
if I, and this is again comes back to this
point of ownership. Right, so you've got the individual on
their developmental journey, we're actually pre agreeing with them saying
I need you to give me your permission that you
want me to intervene when I observe a you going

(26:35):
in a direction that's different from the one that we've agreed,
and to use a word like pineapple or whatever, would
we decide to use as that kind of very quick
almost like hot review to use language reviews before, but
very quickly to remind the individual, Oh, I'm going a second.
I'm just oh, yeah, I've just got to catch myself
a little bit here. But what happens if you're the

(26:56):
problem because because of your discomfort with this commitment that
you're so you're that they're honoring their commitment and you're
honoring your commitment to guide them. But if you don't
honor your commitment because you feel a bit of an ick,
or you forget, for example, to stay with them, or

(27:19):
and this is again, you know, personal experience, it's just
a bit easier not to because you know, so there
is a contract, like a social contract in place here around.
We've agreed, you know, we've we've agreed that you want
me to help you. We've agreed that with you're that
you're giving me permission to help you in a certain
way because you really want to bring about this change,

(27:42):
and you recognize that you need help to do it
because it's doing it on your own, it is going
to be too difficult. Well, ideally, if they can do
it on their own, that's great, but there's going to
be occasions where you just need to kind of just
make it like, be the be the nudge, be the reminder.
So how do you spot because it's easy to sell,
it's easy to be Like, you can delude yourself, can't
you that you think you're doing it for the right reasons? Oh,

(28:04):
they're in a funny emotional state at the moment. Probably
not best I intervene, you know, well, actually you can.
You can create all sorts of narratives that rationalize not
honoring your commitment to them. How do you either how
do you first spot it and secondly overcome it?

Speaker 2 (28:21):
So there's a few elements to this. Is one is
this is the texture of the rule of three, and
then more we delve in and when you get to
the part of the members areas, you'll see there's so
much to it. Part of the rule of three is
making sure rule of two people not into that interaction
are still scanning others interaction and rule of three is
scanning above within those moments the other element has to be.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Use that word that you use that word to just
use to tweak that word scanning. Obviously, scanning might apply
in a kind of maybe a sporting context, but in
a non sporting context we might use the phrase say,
being vigilant or observe continuously observing, I mean scanny ears.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
And eyes, check collating data and not just getting caught
into one thing stepping back. You know that. I always
call it the doing the lighthouse and doing the snider. Okay,
I'm in, but I'm consciously looking for things otherwise you
miss them, the filtering. So the other element is courage
of saying, I have to have the courage to do something.

(29:24):
If I'm the one need to step in, I have
to have the courage to do it because it'd be
wrong of me not to. And sometimes in the rule
of three you might have if we put it in
a sports context, I'm seeing not the rule of two happening.
I pull a player over, an athlete and I whispering, here,
what are you seeing over there? And they go, so
what could you do? And they go, I can step in?

(29:46):
What could you say? The great show me bang? Push
them in, and then you're you're helping initiate that and
I've got your back. There's a great video of Valanquin
doing that with basketball players where he sees a player
calling a player, but the they are ignoring them. So
but then you hear Alan's voice saying he's right, Jimmy's right,
listen to him, let's see it, and then you see

(30:08):
the action and then he does a positive reinforcement at
that early dates. The other element that's so important, which
we've mentioned at the beginning and in the first episode,
is you need to be really smart and this comes
with experience of doing this is understanding when you do
the pre agreements. Be really tight on the UAE so
there is no gray and acceptable and unacceptable. Be really

(30:28):
clear on it, and really clear on the what if.
So looking at potential obstacles, and one of them will
be well, what if they're not in the mood where
you feel they're going to respond? Are you going to avoid?
Are you still going to commit? I still have to commit?
Why agreed? And if you hearing it you don't feel
like it, what do you need to do? I've got

(30:48):
a three a's which is part of that internally accept
and knowledge, physically an act on what was heard and
people their support. And this is again that texture of
there's so much deep in the rule of three. Now
there's another element to that which I don't want to
get too deep in. But the other element to that
is setting uaes up in how you respond in the communication.

(31:13):
So this again is a game changer for many teams
and organizations. So what I mean by that is, again,
the uees is unacceptable, acceptable, and exceptional. When we communicate
at that three a's we're reaching out to somebody. What
we've got to agree is in the heat of battle,
and that can be in business when pressure is really on,
and it can be on a court, on a pitch,

(31:34):
in the military and conflict. What we've got to connect
with is to say, look, let's set the uees around
when I'm communicating how I'm communicating. If I'm the one
reaching out, and this may be just in normal letting
people know there's a player behind them an athlete doesn't
make any difference. So unacceptable be me venting with poor
tonality and sharing nothing of value, just venting a problem

(31:59):
with no solution, That would be unacceptable. As an example,
except will be my tone is still not effective. I'm
still sharing an emotion I'm in now, but the words
I'm saying are solution based and effective and relevant. That
would be acceptable. Exceptional would be I'm adjusting my tone

(32:20):
and how I'm communicating as well as the content of
the information is effective and solution based. So now we're
giving a people a real parameter to say, Look, we're
not expecting anyone in the heat of battle to be
able to go right, how do I communicate with Sarah now,
and I'm going to adjust for my communication. Tell that's
high level elitist. That's like George Ford from Rugby is

(32:44):
one of those type people, very effective at that. But
for most of us immortals, we will have our own
emotions and so now we go, right, I need to
say something so that acceptable will be it has to
be solution based, relevant, can't be event So now we've
framed that, that can often help people say, Okay, whether

(33:07):
I'm the one having a courage to commit now I know, well,
so long as it's solution based and relevant. As long
as it's not a complaint or a problem, I can go.
But from the other end, as well as the receiving
I'm now recognizing I'm not liking how that's being said.
But actually we've agreed so long as it's solution based,
I'm still going to pull it in and act on it,

(33:28):
because hey, empathy, Now that person is already in a
crazy stress state and they're still having a courage to
step out of me to help me, and it's solution based,
I'm going to take it on. So now we're making
it real. What's and all, we're putting a robust framework
in place, so that there I would say were the
key elements.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
There's an awful lot to unpick there. We did say,
we did say that we could spend six hours talking
about one element, so I know we will be going
into more detail on things like Rulder three in the uees.
But this framing of framing the unacceptable first. So, and
what I like about what you've said there is something
that may be lost on some people, which is if

(34:12):
this is going to be a contract between two individuals
or an individual and a group of individuals, if it's
going to be a contract. Oh and by the way,
that you touched on something else that really I needed
to draw out as well, is that it's a contract
between individuals as well. So if you've got a team,
you're establishing a contract of how they communicate to each other,

(34:33):
you know, not just how you communicate with them, and
if we're going to if we're going to honor this commitment,
So you're you're getting into the granularity then of the
commitment of okay, so we're not only honoring a commitment
of the what I eat the objective, but how we
go about the journey. So we're going to get into
that level of saying, actually, this is how we how

(34:55):
we interact. And your point about states really important. So
under standing what your state is, are you ready? Are
you in the right frame of mind and the right
state to be able to communicate, Because if I've got
triggered by you know, oh god, this has happened again
and I'm now angry, I'm in the wrong state to

(35:16):
actually have the interaction, and it would be unacceptable for
me to interact in that state because the likelihood is unconsciously,
subconsciously my state will probably affect my tone, which would
then cause conflict. So checking our state, deciding where we're

(35:37):
going to how we're going to interact, being clear about
what is unacceptable, what would then be acceptable, and then
obviously what an exceptional form of interaction would be is
really really key. So that's taking it a layer down,
which is important I think because I think that helps
people overcome well a be mindful of the need of
the need interact. But the second ber is is it

(36:00):
it helps people too, I think, overcome some of the discomfort.
The final point here is I just want to draw this,
just sort of put a bow on it a little,
which is this notion of it's a contract, so it's
not just a question of a leader essentially saying we've
got an objective team individual. I'm here with power, but

(36:23):
I'm here to guide you. So I'm guiding you, right,
But it's power right because if the framing around interaction
isn't equal, So you're going to interact and do these
things and commit to these objectives, but I'm not going
to make a commitment. I can opt out when I

(36:44):
want to if it suits me, and I can opt
out of the appropriate performance behaviors to help you. So
if I become if I don't manage my state and
I act outside of the parameters of that, given that
there is a hierarchy and there's power in place, then
that breaks the social contract and the individual then quite
rightly to a certain extent, can say I'm going a second,

(37:05):
you're not honoring your piece of this, so like how
and now we no longer have that framing of equality
between the two individuals. I'm the guide supporting, Yes, of
course i am, but I'm going to honor a way
of behaving in helping that journey. And if I was
to break that, you need to let me know. That's

(37:26):
a really, really important construct that I think people might forget.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
And if you don't commit to it, they'll always looking
for the first time. So I always say the coaches,
especially the emotionally driven ones that I mentor, is once
you make that agreement, if they challenge you and honor
what you've pre agree with them, you need to be
really smart on how you respond because they'll be looking
for the first person that does it, and if you

(37:51):
respond in an unacceptable way, no one else will do it.
And this is so key saying with senior managers in businesses.
A lot of them can be hot heads. They have
high standards, they're well driven, and they expect everyone to
be the same. So when they don't see it, and again,
let's not get caught up in this but invisible expectations.
Nothing we discuss their expectations is totally different. There's gray,

(38:14):
and so they're never happy, so they're always fault finding,
and then people just shut off. And what we want
to do is open with effective dialogue. So there's so
much depth to it that we can no way cover
on this. You will get to it as you go
through your member's journey, but hopefully what we've discussed there
will stimulate some connections. So whoever's listening to this take

(38:37):
the information we're sharing here, and it's cool if you
agree with it or not. It's not like this is
not a bible, But ask yourself, are there areas that
you can improve in based on what we said on
agreeing elements but also eliminating the gray, but also then
going through that mud of discomfort of having the courage
to commit the things we agree relentlessly and either end

(38:59):
if you're receiving or you're giving, you honor your part
of that agreement, but make sure the agreement's really clear
at the beginning.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
I think there's another point that just comes to mind
there a little as well, which is you mentioned earlier
on the three eights, so accept acknowledge act. So again,
if you get an individual saying to you, hang on
a second, you're not honoring your commitment. You can go

(39:27):
through that process, can't you. You can accept, acknowledge, act,
recognize it, spot it, all that sort of stuff. Now
this point about manage it real or coaching hot heads,
So what's the scenario? So I can imagine people wanting
to commit to this, but then there might be some
of some of these so called hot heads who might

(39:49):
be thinking this is just so difficult and painful and
awkward and so much like hard work and exhausting, Like,
isn't it just much EASi for me to say do
it this way, or I'm not selecting you, or do
it this way, or we're going to go into a
disciplinary process and just follow that kind of tell mentality,

(40:09):
Like what like I mean, I'm obviously a firm believer
in this because I believe. And this goes back to
the first episode where we actually brought in that article
to talk about this notion of how do we create
environments where you know, kind of athletes in particular feel
you know that they're not essentially just being subjugated by

(40:29):
powerful others who say that you've got to do this,
otherwise you will not progress and you will not get
where you want to get to. So, in the world
of coaching, this notion of winning well and how we
create environments where there's a degree of psychological safety. That
was another thing that was reading this week. So I
think in order to create psychologically safe environments, which everybody
aspires to do, I don't think you've got a choice
but to operate in this way. However, there may be

(40:51):
some people out there who go, well, you know, yeah,
I know, we want to create psychologists environment and all
that sort of stuff, But really we're all busy, no
one's got the time. Let's just crack on and do this.
Those leaders need to understand, don't they, that there will
be lots and lots of downstream consequences, and lots and
lots of pain and difficulty, and probably not as much

(41:12):
performance as they would like if they opt to go
for the sort of what they would see as being
the sort of quick win option of tell command consequence,
which is quite a traditional thing and it still exists
in lots of environments and contexts. They have to understand
the choice they're making when they do.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
That, right, It always bies down to what type organization
a team do you want to be around. And if
you're saying I will be instructing and telling people what
to do, then you have to accept that. One is
they won't be thinking for themselves because they're waiting for

(41:53):
you to tell them what to do, so there'll be
a time gap of action. But also you're now yourself
in position where you're not developing interdependency. So what you're
saying is that I am literally attempting to sail a
ship and direct the ship adjust as sales do the cooking,

(42:15):
et cetera, et cetera, no one. So now, yes, I'm
getting results, but I'm going to results that are slower
than the results I need. And I think the other
important thing is if you feel that that's working and
you're getting success and everyone's happy and you're not having
staff drop out and you're winning everything, if that's your parameter,

(42:37):
then crack on and keep doing what you're doing. But generally,
my experience is people are coming to me because they
have an issue. They're losing staff or now having athletes
if it's in sport that aren't aren't making the right
choice live. So I'm shouting at them, But it's too late,
and we go through it in practice and I tell

(42:58):
them to do it. They can do it one hundred times,
but then they actually can't do it, and coaches and understanding, well,
why is that? And this is why sture I always
get people to put a video on a camera or
even in the corporate let's record meetings. Let's listen back
to it to develop self awareness, to think how you're
interacting with people, how effective is it really Let's find

(43:21):
out what yourself back listen to yourself, but then back
to what type team do you want to build and
if if, what you're doing and how you're doing it,
and the video can often help that self awareness is
not aligned to the team you want to do, then
what changes do you need to make and what changes
need to ripple through the whole organization. Now we can

(43:41):
start an interaction. So it's always based on if you're
totally happy and you're believing you're getting success and everyone's
staying with you and everyone's happy, then yeah, don't change.
But if you're not happy, then let's identify the source
and let's start investing in change. And we're back to well,
if there's change, it's going to be uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
So you've reminded me actually of a leader I worked
for who was really interesting. Actually, you'd never ever suggest
that this individual was in any way a bully. You know,
they're really actually really quite nice, quite nice human, being
very permissive. So would often, like I think, they thought

(44:24):
they were being quite facilitative by allowing the team to
sort of come up with and create their own ideas
and all those sorts of things, which sometimes was useful,
but not always helpful because sometimes you need to be
able to agree on a course of action. So there's
times where you'd spend a lot of time talking, but
you wouldn't really get agreed course of action that everyone
was going to commit to, so that was a bit
of a challenge. But what you'd see sometimes was so

(44:46):
they'd go from being really quite permissive but also facilitative,
and you could really see that they were working on
this and they were trying to be very facilitative, and
they would quite agree stuff and ask a lot of questions,
but then under pressure or stress or when something went wrong,
there would be a different side that would come out.
It was quite you know, it was quite aggressive, but

(45:07):
there was definitely a sharpness in the communication, whether it
was written via an email or it was through a
face to face thing, and that then makes you feel
uneasy because although this person is you know, really quite nice,
they're not consistent and you know they're not staying with
their model, and as much as they might be a

(45:28):
nice person, it makes you then feel as if you
don't know how to act. So then you begin to
check yourself and you're guarded in your communications because you're
worried about how that's going to be perceived. So it's
really interesting that this isn't We're not just talking about
people who are authoritative or hot heads or aggressive. These

(45:50):
behavioral traits can manifest in lots of different ways, and
they stem from inconsistency, you know. So if somebody makes
a commitment to this way of both both parties are
making the commitments and honoring that commitment is going to
be challenging, but something that is going to be really
quite beneficial going down the track because we will see

(46:13):
changes of behavior, we will build culture, we will drive
performance leading to outcome.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
And that's back to understanding that there will be times
when the direct instruction is required. Safety is a great
example of that, or no one knows. Right, Guys, we're
going this way. You know that you're on a more
than the MUD's coming in as a cliff on your right. Right,
we go left. Okay, follow me, But we can't rely
on that because otherwise, as you say, in business, we're

(46:40):
going to be thinking. Right, I don't want to make
a decision because the boss is not in a good
mood and the boss will just find fault. So I'll wait,
I'll just ask the boss, boss, what do you want
me to do? So now I'm a time pirate for
the boss and the boss is thinking, well, why can't
you do that yourself? But the staff member or whatever
it is, is thinking, well, I would do it myself, but

(47:00):
you just slate anything I do when you're in this mood,
So I'm not going to do it. So now we're
building micromanagement. And I think also the other element is
and it goes back to something we mentioned off Stewart
is judgment is that influencers of judgment in the moment,

(47:21):
and that is a craft in itself. Is understanding there
and real influencers that can negatively impact your judgment, or
you're not actually having conscious judgment, you're just automately go
to this element. This way of communicating or thinking or
doing Your filters are down common with sports coaches. Some
of them is they're caught up on an outcome or

(47:42):
a scoreline and all of a sudden, now they're losing it,
or a referee or an umpire decision, they're losing it.
They're no longer in a good state, an effective one.
They're no longer scanning, they're no looking for Okay, where's
the sauce? Right?

Speaker 1 (47:54):
One?

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Are my intervention options here?

Speaker 1 (47:56):
Right?

Speaker 2 (47:56):
I'm going to choose this one. They're just going off
on one. So that judgment of if I'm in a
point where I'm now asking myself, what are the options here?
What's my best judgment LinkedIn to have any effect, I
need not just shout and vent or tell them the solution,
which is not going to be helpful for the next

(48:16):
ten seconds. Then I'm in a good place. But I'm
not doing that. Then this is where judgment becomes quite poor,
because it's not really judgment, it's just an emotional based reaction.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah, I mean that's really important. Actually, and again this
is the point about awareness of state. The other thing
that just occurred to me there about this notion of
judgment is it's much easier actually to make it to
so that again permissions. You talked about commissions that the
start here. So again you would pre agree, wouldn't you that? Right?
Generally speaking, generally speaking, we are going to co create

(48:50):
the solution here, So something novel might happen, and we've
got to make a decision live in the moment, or
we're going to make a decision relatively rapidly based on
imperfect information. Now you know, you might have a situation
where you've got a group of people and they've got
they've got different opinions. So the permission structure is that
fundamentally we're gonna we will, we will have a conversation

(49:12):
about the decision that the various options that are available
to us, we'll look into those and all that sort
of stuff. If we can't reach agreement, then you all
agree that I'll probably have to make the call. That's
leadership as opposed to going around the houses letting people
talk and talk and talk and never actually get into
the whole point of actually a key decision. And they're
actually getting people to say that. But once we've made that,

(49:32):
once we've once we've had a conversation. If some people
disagree with this particular course of action, we're not going
to then moan and wings about the fact that we've
taken this course of action. We're just going to commit
to it. And that's the thing that we have to
honor together. And I think again, that's that sort of
point that like people don't sort of grasp when it
comes to things like you know, kind of judgments. What
we're doing is we're creating an architecture, an interaction architecture

(49:55):
around a group of individuals or between one to one,
which basically decides how are we going to define So,
for example, you might get an athlete to say, I
actually want you to determine the best course of action.
I've fully invested in it, I'm fully committed, I'm fully involved,
we've co created, we've explored the possibilities. But on this occasion,

(50:17):
I actually want you to determine the best course of action.
I'm happy to do that. That's very, very different, and
I actually think, you know, kind of very It doesn't
doesn't happen very often where the individuals you know, are
actually actively actively requesting that the guide or the coach, leader, manager,

(50:38):
whatever parent determines the course of action given the range
of possible options.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
I think that there's two angles to that, Stuart, because
one of the negatives to that is, and I see
it unfortunately too often in sport and business, is athletes
from let's look at athletes first, then business. Athletes from
a young age have had coaches that just tell them
what to do and where to stand. So their comfort
zone is in a match, just tell me what to do, coach.

(51:07):
I like that. I'm comfort there because I can't buck
up because if you tell me what to do and
it doesn't work, I've done what you wanted me to do, coach.
If I'm making a decision it doesn't work, well, it's
on me now. So part of the work I do
with teams is to break that down and say, look,
there will be times when coach is seeing something you
don't and the coach may go right, which we're switching

(51:28):
to man on because they make but we know what
to do in those moments. But what we don't want
you to do is is second, guess, what does coach
want me to do now? And that's why we need
to whether it's in business, whether it's in sport, we
need to drive that level of build the pressure load
in the decision making. In practice, we can't wait for
matches because we need to build that mental resilience, that

(51:50):
tenacious confidence in good judgment, committing like you say, to
a choice, but understanding permissions is there's disagreements in midfield.
When Jim is on jin, Jim is making a final call.
So we don't have those disagreements. But then we can
watch it back cold reviewing it after a hot review
to say, right, in these moments, you have right call
or based on the options, what would have been the

(52:12):
right choice, And now we're getting them to understand the learning.
Then we take it back and it's the same with
business to say, look, departments often in business have conflict
where they're receiving data passing data. There are conflicts within
departments and sometimes when you get managers and departments that
are protecting their department. So instead of looking at let

(52:33):
me understand why the data we're you're receiving us is
not fit for purpose, let me understand your challenges. They
tend to just go no, no, no, it's your fault. So
we're back to how do we need to break those down?
So we're not saying, well, just tell me what you
want me to do. Boss. It's therefore, isn't it. So
we get this blame culture. So this is where we've

(52:55):
got to say, in business, you don't actually have departments.
You have you have pods or work together. So although
it's the department, no, we're still in the same business.
We still have the same goals. So when we have
people that say, just tell me what you want me
to do in that moment, I'm thinking now, based on
need centered it might take a few weeks or a
month to get you confident and confident in making that

(53:17):
decision for yourself and not asking me. I could give
you the answer now, which will give us the quick
response solution we want, but in four weeks time, you'll
still be asking me that same question. So now you're
time prior to me. And actually I haven't employed you
to rely on me for that. You need to be
able to do that. There will be other things you
may rely on me to make sure big picture, big decision.

(53:40):
But for those decisions, I know these are yours, but
let me upskill you so you can make those without
needing a check with me. And that's again we can't
go into that here because that'll be the six hours.
There are some skills and tools I share with managers
and bosses, coaches to help people cultivate that within people
without without thinking Mark, this is too much time for me.

(54:04):
I can just tell them. It's easy for me to
tell them, say yeah it is, but in a year's
time you'll still be telling them. Remind me what you
said the culture was you wanted to build. Remind me
where you said you break down the performance was within
your business or sport. Okay, So these elements need changing
or don't expect them to change them in a week.
We need time to change them. What we can do
is change them in the quickest possible time. Let's look

(54:25):
at the strategies to do that. But we need to
be patient, relentless within them. And it's that is that
acceptance and embracing that that there is a time base
to get people efficient, confident and competent within certain roles,
whether that's a role on their own or that's a
role where they have to work with these people more
effectively than they have in the past to be effective.

(54:46):
That could be into department. So there's so much texture
to but it always still boils down to how am I,
what do I need to do? Have we pre agreed,
does everyone understand the what and the permissions? And we're
just going to commit to this now with enthusiasm. The
other bit you mentioned as Stewart, I think is an
important factories and some of the best people when I

(55:09):
was in the military and in sport and business I've
worked with that are underneath me or feel they're underneath me.
And you know if oncoming as a mentor whatever it
may be, or as a leader in the military, are
the people that disagree with you. But then once you've
made the decision and you're open and listening, go no,
we're going to go this way. Commit with the same
enthusiasm to want to be successful as if we went

(55:31):
for their idea. They are so fantastic to work with,
because we do have some people that think, right, you're
telling me to go with your idea, you've listened to mine,
you're going for yours. Well, I'm not going to commit
with the same enthusiasm. I'd quite like this not to
work because then I can say I told you we
should have gone this way. So it's that we can disagree, share, quantify,

(55:52):
qualify and then someone makes a decision. But when they're
making decisions that's right. I am now committing to that
because I want that to be successful and it's that mindset.
This is a part of building the right culture that
great teams have in business and sport.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
I'm glad you glad you reminded me of the trap
door that it's easy to fall down, which is the
individual who is very used to being told what to
do and actually finds comfort in it. And also they
feel as if then it means it absolves them of
any accountability then saying to you, I want you to
tell me what to do because it's to them it
feels more comfortable and it means that they don't then

(56:29):
have to own anything when it goes wrong. Somebody else
has meant, didn't say. It's a very good trap not
to get not to fall into. And I actually am
glad you reminded me of that.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
Oh I'm mindful of time. Stuarts So members area, Stewart,
how are you doing, How are you doing? Where are
you any stand out so far? You're in chapter two?

Speaker 1 (56:53):
I was yes, So I was just about to say
that actually because you've made reference to the members area
a number of times, and it's probably worth everybody understanding
that this is kind of part of my re immersion.
So basically, like I've done this sort of periodic re
immersion into into this world and as part of my

(57:14):
own going professional development. You know, one of the things
that we talked about me doing was actually us doing
this series together, me reminding myself of, you know, some
of the kind of key principles that I've probably maybe
like you know, kind of dropped off and maybe like
forgotten about and almost like re and then basically becoming

(57:35):
you know, becoming a student, so going into into your
online space, working through the courses and the lessons that
are in there, and then us coming together to reflect
on them. The one that I'm really interested in at
the moment is, and this is probably a teaser for
the next session, the next conversation we have is some

(57:56):
of the areas around methodology, particularly from a coaching standpoint
sports coaching, but also there'll probably be applications from business
context as well, which is about you know, for example,
which approaches you take you utilize those approaches. So in
the world of sport, you know, constraints laed ecological approach
more you know, kind of more autocratic didactic approaches, coach

(58:18):
led this, that and the other, when is it appropriate
and all that sort of stuff. So I'm working through
that at the moment and digging into that and digging
into the sort of the sort of efficacy of and
I've got some questions I think I need unraveling around
how some of that sort of maps together, you know,
kind of conceptually, theoretically, and all those sorts of areas.
This notion of judgment is another area I think that

(58:38):
I'd be interested to explore as well, around the use
of judgment and what indicates you know, good good judgment,
positive judgment, poor judgment, whatever it might be, and how
we how we create that interaction around judgment in a
co creative space. So, yeah, there are two things that
I'm currently exploring that I look forward to talking about

(58:59):
maybe in the next session.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
So that the chapter one you're on is is really
about the philosophy and the big picture, isn't it on?
You know? Or what is all this craziness? You know,
how does it fit? Where is it sit? And then
obviously when we get into chapter two, we're starting to
get into Okay, so what's the first step of actually
understanding your own reality, which we mentioned in this element.

(59:22):
So because there must be chapter one on its own
is going to be about four to six hours, isn't it.
Of there's four parts, isn't it. It's quite as.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
Quite I'm taking a micro learning approach to it and
just doing it in bite sized junks.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
Which is which is the best way? Yeah? Absolutely, you know,
I think there's over I think there might be one
hundred and sixty one hundred and seventy hours on there now.
So it's not something you go I'm going to sit
there and finish this. It is about being a resource
where I can go, right, the main chapters do take
me on a journey, but then all the other elements
is about right, I'm going to look at that as reference,

(59:58):
come out, look at it and keep or so there
should be a fair few years of dipping in and
out and learning stuff and what was that I've got
a problem. What's the solution here? What's some strategies and
keep building?

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Yeah, So as much as the course is like really
good and it's in itself, it's actually also really helpful,
and I think this is something that is probably worth
mentioning and I probably will say this, you know, shameless
plug and all that sort of stuff, but being able
to then sense make with you know kind of practitioner
you know, so you know, you as my kind of

(01:00:31):
learning guide to a certain extent and actually reflect on
some of these areas and actually bring them to life
using for example, case studies or realities, or then actually
being able to pose the question because you know, you
get a lot of questions that are raised from that.
So actually there's a real value in you in a
very blended learning way using the online resource, combine them

(01:00:52):
with like working working together with the practitioner to help
you with the framing and with the questions.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
I always that's why I was so put off many
years ago from building an online resource, because we know
the challenge with it. However great it can be, it's
never going to be as effective as having someone live
that knows it inside out, can go okay, quantify this, Okay,
how's it fit here? If you thought about this, and
also then the accountability of committing to those judgment actions

(01:01:21):
reflecting on them. But I still use it now so
with the mentors and teams are used globally in corporate
and in sport they've all joined to that. And sometimes
when we're going for a zoom or a live, I
just share a direct link, go right, just watch this,
But then we can The texture that will never be
on an online is the little human element, okay, Mark

(01:01:42):
bad Mumbang, and having those I never find them uncomfortable.
Some people might the uncomfortable conversation says this coach hasn't
committed to what they said. They've kind of or they
haven't been every time enough, or they're not honoring their part,
especially league head coaches seenior managers. So that you will
never find in a online but it will give real
powerful resources of understanding. And then obviously the gold star

(01:02:05):
is you have someone that literally has the live conversation
to help build you, to accelerate you through, which is
something that we're both open to working with organizations to
help that live. But hopefully these conversations will just stimulate thoughts.
But we want them. We want them to be raw, don't.
We want them to even if you and I disagree.
It's it's about taking the texture from generalized statements and

(01:02:29):
making it real. You know, I'm picking it and look
at look, this is the reality of things. Okay, what's
some solutions for these?

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Yeah? Right? Top takeaways? My top takeaway for this week
is something you've reminded me of, which is that we
need to be intentional about and be clear and set
parameters and unacceptable, acceptable exceptional around interactions, be clear about

(01:02:59):
and actually frame behavior, i e. Interaction is a behavior.
How we communicate together needs to be clarified. It's not
just about the what, it's also about the health.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
And if I can share a top tip that links
into what we spoke about, which links into your element there,
Stewart is the player last into scanning. So remember we
talked about in the first session about words to action.
So when we've had an interaction, the player lasts is
a person that's going to go away and do they

(01:03:30):
finish they say, this is what I'm going to commit to.
This is what we've agreed. Now here's the massive point.
As soon as that's happened, they've walked away. We are
now looking for scanning for commitment to that change, not
so much outcome. So whether you're a businessman, whether you're
a teacher, whether you're a coach, e as an athlete.
In that rule of three at rule of two. As

(01:03:52):
soon as someone's agreed they're going to commit to something,
I'm now scanning for are they committing to it? And
it's a common trip up that we don't do. We
have the meeting, we have the agreement, but then what
we're not doing is afterwards, go let's look for the change,
and if the change isn't happening, we need to loop
back again. If the change is happening, then we do
the positive reinforcements. I always think if you're on the

(01:04:12):
side of the picture of court, you've had a quick
one to one, right, bang out, don't get caught up
in the game again with a your assistant coach or
another players going okay, scan for the commitment to the agreement,
and then you're either positive reinforcement or you've got to
be another loop because otherwise it's just words without action.
And for me, if everyone just committed to that this week,

(01:04:33):
I'll be really interested. And if you're seeing any elements, go, actually,
they're not committing to the agreement. And then we have
another meeting and people say things, but where's the commitment?
So we can talk in other chat Stuart about how
in corporate I make sure that when they have meetings,
there's a connection from previous meetings, and there's maximal engagement

(01:04:53):
to make sure we're on a journey for change. They're
not just separate pods.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
Yea review, Yeah, okay, that'd be good again. Looking forward
to that, Allie, Mark, I'm being a good lunch and learn.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
I'm looking for last one we haven't mentioned. We'll share
it on the next one. We've set up a discount
code for anyone that listens to these for the members area,
so we will share it verbally in the next recording,
So you have to listen to the recording to get
the code.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
And I'll might put it in the show notes as well.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
After yes, yes, great, all

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Right, thank you Mark, see you for our next recording.