The coach as a 'performance architect' - a conversation with Mark Bennett OBE - The Talent Equation Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to the Talent Equation Podcast.If you are passionate about helping young people
to unleash their potential and want tofind ways to do that better, then
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(00:23):
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(00:44):
discussion at the Talent Equation dot codot UK. Enjoy the show. Hi

(01:11):
everyone, Stuart here Before we getinto today's podcast, I wonder if I
can ask you to do me afavor. I'm hoping that I can get
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(01:32):
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(02:14):
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(02:38):
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(02:58):
if you find some value in it, then sit onto others and pay it
forward. And if you can dothat, I'd be enormously grateful. Thanks
in advance for your support. Rightthen, despite the Gremlins attempting to sabotage
our recording, I'm delighted to welcomeback Mark Bennett to the show. Mark,

(03:22):
welcome back. Thank you for havingme once again. Stewart. This
is well past our second chit chat. I think I'm going back now.
I think this must be at leastyour fourth or fifth appearance on the show.
So this has come about. There'sa number of different levels to this
conversation, some of which unashamedly isyou helping me out with some challenges that

(03:46):
I'm facing. But nonetheless I'm alsobefore we get jump into any of that,
i'd be interested just to sort oftell me what's been going on and
give me a bit of a quickupdate as to the stuff that you've been
doing, and then we'll jump intoa few other bits and pieces. So
yes, so lots of online work. Put a lot of time into my

(04:09):
two point zero for my online resourcethat members area really pleased with that,
although it's taken a longer than Ithought. I think about one hundred and
fifty hours of resources now for coacheswork in the States with some of the
universities, build hockey latest one workingwith Bathnet put to build their culture bobs

(04:32):
who've had the very very shocking andsad news that they have not been accepted
into the professional era. So that'sending in a few weeks. And then
yes, some Premiership football work,although again I had a team ready to
go, and now they're not goingto stick with that coaching team, so
I will not be working with themnext season, so I am looking for

(04:55):
another team and then some corporate workas well. Still doing a work in
Portugal with the players and coaches.So yeah, a few sports still still
working through. So just just takeme back then, So you just mentioned
about the shocking news of bath Level. Does that mean that they're no longer

(05:15):
going to be part of the SuperLeague? Yeah, their tender wasn't successful,
so obviously they've been working on buildingthe Super League into professional era.
They've been semi professional and because ofsome of the criteria, one of them
was a stadium with amount of seats, Bath because of what they're working was

(05:38):
didn't meet that criteria. I'm surethere may have been a few other small
elements, but that was the mainreason why they weren't accepted. So really
shocking for them because they really believethat they would be successful, and you
know, they run the pathway forthe whole of the Southwest to build the
game, So at the moment theydon't know who's going to run that they
want to, but you know it'sa funding element and also all those young

(06:00):
kids that you know, we're aspiringto go and watch bath netball now will
not be able to go and seethem. So the super League team will
no longer exist in three weeks unlesssomething changes. Wow. Wow, that's
the throat nature of professional sport.Hey, you know, one minute you're
working with a group of coaches,the next minute you're out the door.

(06:21):
It's it's just it never ceases toamaze me. Yeah, And it was
really tough because they really worked hardat their vision. So they've been working
for a four year plan to buildthe right culture there for the profession are
and there were two years in sothey didn't have the highest caliber players.
For the last few years they've hadreally young players, but actually building the

(06:42):
culture across the whole of the staff. They were doing all the things they
needed to do to be a wellestablished professional team, and obviously halfway through
now that they're not going to seethat end. So the elements that frustrated
me the much was all the hardwork that the coaches had put into change
their own behavior as the staff following, you know, a more professional method

(07:04):
of communicating with the athletes and accountabilityand honesty, integrity and behaviors on and
off the court, so much work, and now that won't be echoed into
the preession here, all that twoyears will be lost a little bit.
It won't be lost on the individualsbecause I believe we've changed the lives of
those individuals, athletes and players.But it's shame we were halfway through building

(07:26):
something and now it won't see theend. So let's just jump into that
for a second. I do wantto come back to you there' the work
you're doing with golfers in did yousay Portugal? US beIN Portugal? Portugal?
Lovely? So I will circle backto that, but just talking about
the work you've been doing well beforewe jump into that that you know,

(07:47):
the podcast is growing all the time, new audience is coming through. Not
everybody gets the opportunity to wade throughfour hundred hours of audio. We're coming
up to two hundred and fifty episodesnow, So I'm wondering if you wouldn't
mind just giving a quick recap onwhat you do and the kind of work

(08:07):
that you know you've done and howyou know almost like the I know it's
not very easy to do a quickrecap of pds. It's extremely complex,
extremely dense, and there's a lotto it, but broadly the overview of
the kind of work you do usingPDS as a framework. Yeah, so
it's a tough question that one.So the I call it more now of

(08:28):
my role as a performance architect,if you like. So the performance development
system, which has been over thirtyyears now, is a holistic system to
build a culture and a performance behaviorswithin an organization. So the performance development
systems is the whole element the needsanalysis looking at all the interdependency within a
corporate organization, a professional team,or a national and governing body. I

(08:52):
know we did a little bit withGolf Stewart back in the day. So
it's all of those elements. Butwithin that chunk down there is the need
centered coaching, which is a nonlinearpedagogy way that isn't restrictivele too inclusive of
only one way, but it's away of increasing judgment in coaches, allowing

(09:13):
them to be more self aware,allowing them to make themselves redundant, to
develop better decision makers in their athletesunsupervised, to get them to understand the
source of an issue, and betterinterventions beyond just the tell within athletes at
all levels, so from grassroots sixyears old to professional. So it's been

(09:35):
quite a journey. I've worked acrossover thirty sports now, all the way
Paralympics, Olympics, NBA, MajorLeague Baseball, Premiership rugby, Premiership football,
all the way through to the grassrootsand age groups. So yeah,
it's I'd say that is the shortestversion of how I could explain it.

(09:58):
So yeah, so, I meanyou made some references, I think,
and this is one of the thingsthat I think makes PDS unique is it
doesn't necessarily it's not just a coachdevelopment intervention yet a lot of it is
driven around the idea of how coachesare working with athletes and the interactions between
coach and athlete, but it's actuallymuch more about environments culture because you've recognized,

(10:24):
like a lot of people do thatcoaches don't coach necessarily just because like
that's the way they do things.It's actually it's a reflection of the culture.
You know. So if a cultureis very, for example, just
purely results orientated, you're likely toget coaches being quite directive because they're under

(10:45):
pressure and feel that's the way thatthey're going to try and get some outcomes
and some results. I mean,obviously that doesn't necessarily work long term,
but you have to address those culturalpressures in order to enable the coaches to
work in different ways. So it'skind of interesting sort of stuff. I
think. I imagine you spend yes, you spend quite a bit of time
with coach, but you also spenda lot of time in the environment they

(11:05):
operate within in order to enable coachthen take on board the things that you're
taking on. Yeah, and theother element I haven't mentioned that is huge
is the well I call it adherance. That's a scary word for many people.
But the systems and mentoring mechanisms toembed change in human behavior. So

(11:26):
the difference between going on a coachingcourse and think, no, this is
brilliant, get marking for a daysis brilliant or I hate this. Either
way we get both. But it'show do I how do I get an
athlete or a managing director of performancedirector, a coach to be self aware
of where they need to change andthen set up a support network internally with

(11:46):
me on the top if you like, and to like can develop people to
do that where we can support theircommitment to the change, knowing that the
change. Often we'll see an outcomeregress before an outcome progress of getting them.
How do I measure behaviors? Howdo I measure if I'm progressing when
I'm not seeing an outcome change?So for me, that's from everyone.

(12:07):
The feedback I had is, Iwould say that is everybody said. That's
where it's so different. Mark,is you spend a lot of time on
helping us actually do what we saidwe were going to do when everyone's forgot
about it normally, or when it'snot working, or when I don't like
doing it, et cetera, orwhen they're under pressure, all those sorts
of things. Yeah, following throughon your stated intention, being clear on

(12:30):
what your stated intention is. Yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah, it's
interesting because I think that's that's Ithink one of the reasons that you mentioned
earlier on you know, some peoplelove it, some people hate it,
And I think the people who hateit, I would say, and I
was in that bracket very briefly,people who hate it are the people who

(12:54):
hate the accountability. I hate thefact that you're you're going to live by
your principles, which means that ifwe're going to ask athlete to be accountable
to their stated goals, and ourjob is to support them and hold them
accountable to their stated goals, theones that they created for themselves. And

(13:16):
then if coach is going to goon a developmental journey and they're going to
establish some stated goals, but they'renot prepared to hold themselves accountable to those
stated goals, then there's a bigquestion mark, isn't there as to how
can you ask an athlete to beheld accountable if you coach aren't prepared to
be held accountable to your developmental goals. But so many practitioners and I was

(13:37):
in this bracket only briefly. OnceI saw the light, it didn't take
long, but where I was like, oh my god, this guy's actually
going to follow through. He's goingto ask me to follow through on the
things I said I would do.And that's quite jarring because we don't tend
to operate that way. People findthat a little bit kind of aggressive,
not aggressive, But if it feelsaggressive to them, it's not aggressive.

(14:00):
If it's just exactly you've used itfor praising the path ivenue. It's firm
but friendly. You know, you'rejust saying to people when i'ng on a
second you said you wanted to dothis, do you want to do this?
Or if you don't want to dothis, let's do something else.
But let's not say we're going todo something and not do it. Yeah,
And it's always a tricky one becauseI can't compromise any more than I
have over the years. In Iwouldn't say it's softening, but be a

(14:22):
bit smarter in how I interact withpeople. Where I was very just honest
and direct years ago, now I'mstill honest, but there's times when I
know I need a filter what Isay, but there will come a time
when I cannot filter anymore. Andone of the key things that I think
if you looked at it counseling,mentoring, if I was to call it
that, and I know i'm generalizing, maybe just to see the difference,

(14:45):
would be let's sit down and havea cup of coffee. What would you
like to talk about? Now?There is still an element of that I
do, but when it looks atme mentoring and supporting the change in organizations
is one of the elements that isdifferent is I asked them, what are
they going to con it to theytell me based on their need, not
their want, aligned to their lighthouseset some UA's around it. So what's

(15:05):
unacceptable, accept what would be exceptional? And because of my experience, I
know the obstacles that may come,so I can raise awareness to what if
this happens, What if this happens, You may experience this, So what
are we going to do when thathappens? So I can really help guide
them through the darkness. But thenonce they've said yeah, I'm going for
it, when they go for itand I meet them again and we've got

(15:26):
markers in place we can use virtuallyor over the place, my element is
it would be wrong of me notto challenge them in saying, remind me
what you said you were going tocommit to. Okay, so what's prevented
it? And be okay with whatthey would feel is that there's a first
time uncomfortable conversation. Not uncomfortable forme because I'm saying, well, if
I'm not doing that, I mightas well walk away, because that has

(15:48):
to be part of my job ishonoring and supporting and challenging into the very
elements you said you were going tocommit to that you needed to commit to
based on who you said you neededto be in all to be successful for
your athletes or your business. Sojust take me through. You just made
a reference there to a couple ofelements that I think we need to unpack

(16:11):
because people may or may not bethat familiar with them. But one of
the things that you talked about therewas needs versus once. So why do
you differentiate those two things? What'sthe rationale for that? You talked about
needs needs centered coaching as well,which is interesting, an interesting change from
athletes centered coaching. Yeah, sothat the need if you think about it

(16:37):
in a simplistic way, because wecan get so deep into this is often
what people want. So can Ijust use an analogy of wanting to get
a good body composition and food anexercise, So because it's common for a
lot of people. So I wantto get a great body. Let's make
it up. I want to geta great body. I want this level

(16:57):
of body composition or shape or appearance, whatever it may be. Well in
order to do that, I alsowant to have a curry every Friday night
and a pizza on a Wednesday,because I want to have that. And
when I go to the gym.I want to just do arm bicep,
curls, and bench press. Okay, well that's great. There's a lot

(17:18):
of wants in there. But ifyou're saying, okay, the body composition
is your marker, now, whatwe've got to ask yourselves is, yes,
all these things you want, butwhat do you need to do that
you may not want to do that'sgoing to allow you to be successful to
get what you've said you want toachieve. So then we're into that process
going. It's still choices. Youcan still choose to have your curry and

(17:41):
your pizza and not do the intervaltraining, or not do the leg work
you said, or actually not managingyour mathcros within food you like, you
can choose not to. But ifyou choose not to based on what you
said you want to achieve, thenwe need to adjust the outcome the goal
because your behaviors, you're aligning adifferent behavior to a different outcome. So

(18:03):
if you're saying this is the outcomeyou want, we've got identify what is
the need for you and your dailybehaviors. It's going to facilitate your outcome
that you've just said you want.So the need point is, and we
just use that for an example.Is the need points where people fall down
is it's back to that discipline process. Say I may not want to do
it, but I know right nowthis is what I need to do.

(18:26):
Now if I relate that straight backto a sporting example, I now,
let's look at football soccer. SoI'm on the pitch and as a coach,
you know it may be I wantto finish top four in the league,
and even whatever I say, that'sstill in my head. So if
we break that down, okay,great, Well, can you buy in
the best players in the world.No, Mark, we haven't got the
budget for that and they won't wantto come here anyway. Okay, great,

(18:48):
So you've got a level of players. So based on your level of
players, we have a capability inthose players. So all we can do
is exploit their capability. Great,So what tie team do you want to
see on the pitch that is goingto lay to perform to the best and
often and eventually we will always getthere. Is I want a team that
is really confident in their role onand off ball, can manage a state

(19:12):
well scan well commit to the bestchoice based on the capability of my teammates
around the opposition and review live withintention. I want them to do that
and adapt based on our principles ofplay. Whatever it may be, but
that's what I want relentlessly. Idon't want to react to the referee,
but that's what I want them todo. Okay, great, So that's

(19:33):
what you want in order to getwhere you want to be. Great.
So now let's look at what youneed to do as a coach in order
to facilitate the change in them.So the first question is where are they
now? Let's check the baseline.How are we going to test that?
Well, coach, you need tostop talking. Let's throw scenarios in and
let's see where they are in theirdecision making, their interaction adaptability. Then

(19:53):
we spot the gaps. So thenwe say, okay, so what is
it we're doing now that we needto invest in. It's scanning, decision
making, reviewing choice execution that outcome. Often it's in their understanding teammates,
communicating live, accepting feedback and actingon it. So we break those down,
identify the one, top, one, two, three that we're going

(20:15):
to focus on, and often thatwill be down to I'm going to strip
this down a really quick The oneelement that's very common is often then the
coach needs to realize that for thatparticular session, I can't shout the answer
at the athlete in that particular session. I can't bring them in and tell
them what the solution is in thatsession because I could do that and in
the next five minutes I may seewhat I want to see, But if

(20:37):
I linked it into what I've saidin that lighthouse, I want players to
make decision based on what they seelive that judgment. By me giving them
the answer in this moment, I'mnot allowing and encouraging them to develop that
craft that I've now said they needto be in a match. So now
I'm recognizing as a coach, Iwant to shout and tell them the answer
now, but what I need todo is not shout and tell them the

(21:00):
out. So what other variables andskills have I got that can manipulate the
environment that allow them to develop theirability to see and make choices and review.
So that is a common example wherethe coach might want to shout because
they think that's helping the athlete,but in the moment that's the need,
is not that the need is somethingvery different that they often may not have

(21:22):
the knowledge and skills to be ableto do yet, but that's where the
need would be for that coach,and often they won't want to do it
when things aren't going well, Sothey're back to our need to shout because
they're not doing what I want tosee, so I'm going to tell them
what to do. So then we'reshutting them down even more, so we'll
never get to the type team wewant to develop. There's a lot to

(21:44):
unpack in there, and this iswhere we're sort of drilling into this.
So you mentioned a minute ago aswell you talk about the needs idea and
then you talked about uaes Unacceptable unacceptableacceptable exception. How do you apply the
UAE framework if you're do you usethe UA framework as a mechanism to establish

(22:07):
needs? They established the need firstand then the US would be around the
behavior required that a tangible reference thatwe can both align to. So that's
why I want the coaches to useof the athlete so that we're eliminating the
gray is what I call it,so there's clarity when we're referencing and we

(22:29):
have expectations of an action and behaviorwe are all aligned to what that looks
and sounds like because the US willgive us that tangible of reference. So
when we want to review it,we've got this pre agreed reference which prevents
people saying, oh, I thoughtyou meant this on my intention interpretation?
Was this right? So you getclarity of intention. Is this what you

(22:53):
refer to as the lighthouse? Well, yeah, so the lighthouse is where
we want to get to. Sowhere our ends state is what does that
look like? You know? Sofor a team, if I were to
watch a team and a match,what would I see in here? If
I watch them in practice? IfI watch my athletes unsupervised, and I
could put a camera on them,what would you see in their sleep and
their nutrition and their commitment to theirexercise and their rehab in how they interact

(23:17):
when they see someone struggling. Sothe lighthouse, when we're looking at cultural
peace, that's what we're looking at. Human behaviors in the lighthouse. When
we're looking at a performance piece,that would be the performance of an individual
or a team in their capability andcompetence within the variables they need to be
successful. And typically when you workwith a group or an individual and you're

(23:41):
establishing this notion of uease or establishingthe needs. It'd be interesting to go
through the process of how you dothat. So let's just go circle back
to the golfers that you're working withcurrently, that individual right, Because I
think some people assume that PDS canonly be done with team sports because you
often work with team sports. Butactually, I know you've worked with individual
was before. In fact, itwas golf where we first came across each

(24:02):
other. So how do you dothis with a golfer for example? So
are you doing with the coaches ofgolfers both both both yeah, and the
managers also within the golfers. So, whether it's the individual team, what
you always have is you have aset of individuals. So if it's one,
you have one. If it's ateam, you have a lot of

(24:22):
individuals. So you're still down andwhat and that's where we link into that
rule of three is one. Everyoneis still a one. One is self.
So self is based on the decisionsyou make in every single moment of
your life twenty four to seven.So the choices you make in your commitment
to them, Now, what influencesthat should be your knowledge and understanding and

(24:45):
your awareness, your skill capability inthe moment aligned to your lighthouse. So
even as a golf player, golfplayer will have a lighthouse now that maybe
a five year, ten year,and then we would chunk that down.
Some people call it goals, butthe light house where the subtle differences is
once you've got that clear lighthouse,whatever you're doing in the moment, you're

(25:06):
asking yourself, is this going toadd value to me getting close to my
lighthouse or not, whether that maybe I'm turning my phone off at nine
pm to allow me to get inbed to get my meditation. Wherever I
do that allows me to go tosleep, to give me my nine hours
to make sure I get up ontime, I pack my bag before.
These these are elements I know ifI do these things, it's going to

(25:27):
allow me have a more effective day, but I still have to choose to
do them. So with a golfplayer, you would have they're off course
behaviors and they're on course behaviors.So you would break that down to match
behaviors, pre match, postmatch practicebehaviors. So an example would be,

(25:48):
I'm sure this doesn't happen with theelite of the elite shut but a common
one for golfers so listeners can connectis often where golfers need to improve and
they're short game, but often whenthey go and practice no one's watching,
they'll go down the driving range andstart smashing the big clubs. So that's
an example of one to need oractually I do some of our matches are

(26:12):
in the rain, but actually wheneverit rains, I go to the driving
range as opposed to, well,actually it's raining. What's the only time
I can practice my weather skills whenit's raining. What a great opportunity.
So mindset shift, but I'm stillcommitting to what I need to do in
order to get as close as Ican to my lighthouse in the quickest time
possible. And that's that principle ofin each moment, we've got to make

(26:37):
sure people making informed choices. Sothat's back if they don't understand their options,
then how can they make the rightchoice. So this is where micromanagement
is really poor, because if wehaven't allowed people to make informed choice and
given them the confidence to make certainchoices without looking for someone to tell them
if it's right and wrong, thenthey'll end up not making choices and they

(26:59):
go, tell me what you wantme to do, which happens a lot
in team sports. So whether it'sindividual or team, getting that player to
understand that athlete to go, everythingI do, from getting up to go
into bed in the morning is achoice. Now if I can be more
informed in my choices and then mecommit without fear to that choice and then
review choice execution while it's building mylife skills up. But secondly, I

(27:21):
can put my head on the pillowat the end of the day and go,
I've had the best day I possiblycould based on my environment, my
situation, and my potential. Andthen so just using that analogy actually because
it's a particularly relevant one for meat the moment with my own golfing process,

(27:44):
do you find that so like Iagain, you know, I know
I've got to be able to makethis commitment, this, that, and
the other. So is it aboutthe individual becoming clearer as to what it
is that they're trying to achieve andthen working backwards as to what are the
actions I might take and the behaviorsaround those actions that I might take in

(28:06):
order to achieve my goal. Yeah, it's I think it's making that realistic.
So adding realism to people when theysay I want to become somebody,
I want to achieve something. Sooften what can happen is everyone goes,
oh, great, you've got agoal. Oh ye, okay, let's
go well, often what we needto do is go logistically. If you're

(28:26):
planning a week, can you actuallycommit to that plan, because if it's
not realistic, you're just going toset failure up. So we've got to
be saying then. So an examplemay be, and I know back in
the day when we did the coursewhere you were on that, I don't
know how many years ago that wasnow start fifteen maybe, but one of
the elements mark, let's not eventalk about how long ago it was.

(28:48):
One of the elements we always dowith the adherence element for a club coach
was when the player your client comesin and they've finished at the end of
the session, you say to them, okay, so ring your diary with
you, open up, Okay,show me where you're going to commit.
So instead of them saying I'm goingto practice three times a week for an
hour each time, that's great,but that's pioneers guy to me, So

(29:11):
I say to them, okay,get your diary, show me what time
and where you're going to be gettingthose in. So now they're going to
write them mint or type them in. So now we're looking at Oh,
hang on a minute, I can'tdo Tuesday because I finished work at five
and by the time I picked thekids up. If it's a family man
or woman, there's no way I'mgoing to get to that club in time.
Okay, So realism, Now let'slook at what can you actually commit

(29:33):
to? And now let's strip backthe one. Let's focus on the need.
What do you need to do?Okay, what does that really look
like? Okay, now let's committo that and then often not to addelayers,
tell me if I'm going too deep, stu it. But often with
those individual elements, a golf playeris very unsupervised. Most of your energy
and growth is unsupervised. Is wedo a red and a green or a

(29:56):
green and a yellow, where wesay, okay, this is the green,
so this is if everything goes well, this is what I can do.
Then you'll have a yellow or ared plan, which is okay if
something happens and I can't do thatbecause of things out of my control,
instead of me giving up. I'mjust going to shift on that day to
the yellow plan. But I'm goingto let you know in the WhatsApp group

(30:17):
or whatever it is that I've linkedtogether with them in that moment, right,
I can't do this because of this, I've moved to the yellow only
for today. I'm back to thegreen tomorrow. So by the time I
meet them again, if it's ina week time two weeks, we've had
an interaction of them owning their choicesand we've set up it successful. What
if to allow them to be successfulin the realism of life, not in

(30:41):
the pie and sky ideal that oftenis never committed to. So you go
through a process of challenging somebody's statedintention there want by creating genuine reality to
it practically through available time, timeor you know, different scenarios or whatever

(31:03):
it might be. That then redefinesfirstly, is that goal a realistic goal
or do we need to reframe it? And then secondly, once we've established
and said actually, no, itis a realistic goal, recognizing that things
can happen which can derail us fromthe things that we're saying we're going to
the actions we're going to take.The behaviors. And then so what we

(31:27):
then do is we devise, almostlike you say, the kind of the
less than ideal pathway. But it'sbetter than saying, well, because I
didn't achieve my main pathway, I'mjust going to give up the entire thing.
Yes. And also what we're doingthen is there's two angles of this.
Is one is we're getting them tothink in a way we want them

(31:48):
to, in a performance way.So I'm controlling this. I'm coming into
this. I can't well, there'salways another option, but we've aligned the
what if so we're helping them inadvance to be successful one end. The
other end is I actually testing theircommitment. So if they continually are going
on back on the yellow again andthey've had a week of yellows, that

(32:09):
may be a little warning sign tome that maybe are we planning effectively or
are you really as committed as yousaid? Now, I don't know which
one of those are. But ifthere's a trend, I you can't achieve
you green. This is just oneexample. What is it's preventing you from
committing to the green? Is itan attitudeinal behavior element? Or have we

(32:29):
set up something logistically is not achievableanyway, Well, we need to adjust
either way. So identified a sourceand let's have a discussion about the source
and what we need to change.Interesting, So is the green amber red
another way of saying, like youtalk about the uaes. So, for
example, your green path is yourexceptional path, this is what we're going

(32:52):
to achieve most times. My yellowpath is my acceptable path, and then
my red one is where it getsunacceptable. Or is that framing wrong?
Because the exceptional is is exceptional shouldn'tbe the green. It should be what
we normalize. Yeah, so thatthey're totally separate. So the uaes would
literally be the choice of my behaviors. So it may be exceptional, and

(33:15):
sometimes there is an exceptionable but exceptionalin this might be. Actually, when
I got there, I committed tomy hour, but I still felt mentally
fresh, So I added this element. I did this bit because mentally I
was still focus, and I addedthat love that except one be I'm committing
to everything I can unacceptable be I'mchoosing the easy option when I should be

(33:36):
committing to the need. I'm startingto choose the once that would be unacceptable.
Now, for one is a needgreat, but we can't connect to
right, my number one priority isthis, but I like doing number three
priority, so I'll start doing numberthree more. No, no, no.
We focus on what we said dowe cauld commit to based on our
needs, so unacceptedb'ld be finding shortcuts, not doing what we know we need,

(33:59):
committing to one hundred percent intention whatwe know we need to do to
be successful. It's interesting, Sonow I'll add to this Stewart. This
is where the cleaner I am ofhaving that heavy conversation with at the forefront,
the easier it is for me tochallenge them when I meet up with

(34:22):
them or zoom when they haven't committedto what they said, because we've been
really rigorous with that what ifs andthe clarity, So if now they haven't
committed to it, there's less excuses, there's less reasons that we haven't pretty
thought about. So for accountability andhonoring, it's setting them up for success.
But also it's making far easier forme to do my role, which

(34:45):
is challenge them around let's see reviewwhat you said you would commit to,
because often what we want to doneis celebrate the things of committed to that
have never done before. So thisis where we're celebrating the exceptional, what
we're challenging the unacceptable. But ifI leave some gray in there, that
can often lead to a more difficultconversation. And is the difficulty Does the

(35:09):
difficulty arise from the fact that people, because they haven't been clear, that's
given them wriggle room so that theythen can then push back to say,
hang on a second, we didn'tnecessarily agree this. Yeah, And sometimes
as they hadn't thought it through,so all of a sudden, there's because
I haven't been thoroughing my questions.There's stuff they didn't even think about,

(35:30):
and all of a sudden it appearsthrough no intention. But often it maybe,
oh there's an easy option here,because remember, I mean, you've
experienced it, Stewart. I know, remember at Twickenham when we were having
that conversation with the chap in theclassroom at Twickenham that hadn't done what he
said he was going to do.So it's those moments where I'm cool,
I don't get stressed about it atall. But the conversation is some people

(35:52):
just aren't used to someone holding themaccountable to the very actions they said they
were going to commit to because it'snormal in today's mentoring and coach development.
Not too I'm generalizing there, butthat's the experience in executive world and in
sport. So when I'm coming inand I'm saying, well, hang on
a minute, yeah, you're talkingabout all those things, but let's talk
about Remind me what you said you'regoing to commit to. Let's review that.

(36:15):
I'm interested in that, not thisother stuff, because often people will
not want to talk about review thevery eleance. They know they should have
done that they chose not to.Yeah, and I'm just thinking back to
that time. That's the other thingis is people obviuscate, so they talk
around the issue and you have tobe very patient and say, yeah,

(36:37):
yeah, I hear all that,but we agreed this well quite challenging.
Yeah. So remember I always askedyou. I never in mind, so
I never go we agreed this?I always say, what do we agree?
Because I want them to own it. I want them to tell me,
Okay, let's review that once they'vetold me. So what I'm thinking

(37:04):
is about that. It's just so, what do you I know you've referred
to something in the past, yousort of you because some people even listening
to this conversation will probably be abit like, well, hang on a
second, that feels a little bithardcore, and you know that's a bit
you know, challenging and a bitmore brasive and this, that and the
other. But you don't I mean, I know you do have some pushback

(37:28):
from time to time, but generallyspeaking, people can get on board with
this idea that actually this is about. You know, if you like a
sort of an accountability framework, mostof us really benefit from that. A
lot of us are looking for accountability, whether we know that or not.
One of the things you talk about, and I've heard you about in the
past is this notion of asking people, just as the starting point, what
kind of individual they want to beas in or an athlete. So,

(37:52):
for example, do they want tobe aligned to performance i e. Personal
excellence, growth improvements on that journeyor do they want to be you refer
to this as leisure, which issomeone who's there for enjoy enjoyment, engagement,
social connection. Nothing wrong with anyof those things, but they aren't

(38:13):
necessarily focused. Those individuals aren't necessarilyfocused on this process of improvement. Yes,
they're happy to have a bit ofimprovement, but their primary goal is
to be there more from the kindof enjoy the enjoyment experience. And these
two things, by the way,don't have to be demetrically opposed enjoyment.
You know, performance and improvement canbe enjoyable and is often very enjoyable.
But if you were in a situationso you define it in these terms broadly,

(38:37):
you know, generally, and youobviously have some people who are kind
of a bit in between. They'resort of half leisure half performance. And
I'm asking this question for a particularreason. This we're going to go to
in a minute, but just talkto me about that framing a little bit
and how that kind of works foryou. Well, there's two key points
that first part of what you've sharedand then the second part. So the

(39:00):
part is, remember, I'm onlyholding people accountable to what they've agreed they
honestly believe they need to commit toin order to become who they want to
become or who they feel they needto become to be successful. Well,
that's a coach and manager, anathlete. So I'm not setting their bar.
They're setting their bar. Actually oftenchallenge them to is that a little

(39:20):
bit too high for you, youknow, let's talk this, or if
you haven't committed to this level before. So it's always on their terms.
It's always on their stretch point,based on where their need is. So
where we're saying some people say,oh, that's a bit, it's going
to be tough. It's only goingto be tough if you don't commit to
what you capable a committed to.But actually you only need a few of
those conversations with people where they go, I needed that mark. Yeah I

(39:42):
hated it, but I needed it. But next time it's a lot easier
because they want to show off whatthey've done, but they understand there's consistency
there with me. I think thesecond part of that discussion you had there
is I don't believe you can beleisure or performance. I believe give you
one or the other. Now whatI mean by that is I'll give you

(40:04):
some examples. Well i'll give youone example, then you can add any
texture you wants to do it.So some are a player in a team
that commits one hundred percent on gameday but will not commit at any point
to their nutrition, their training,or their defense work. They just love
attack. But you know they arelimited in defense. However committed, they

(40:27):
are a match day, they area leisure player because they're not committing to
what they need to be in orderto be the best player they can be
based on the pre agreed metrics ofwhat they need, how they need to
perform. So it's not setting standardsabove their level. It's setting the standards
based on their behaviors. They needto be the best they can at their

(40:47):
level. So where we're looking atthen is is we just need to understand.
So this is where we need tobuild honesty. And sometimes it takes
a while for me to for somewant to be honest with me because often
like athletes, they'll tell the coachwhat they think the coach wants to hear
saying with me. With coaches andmanagers, so once they get through the

(41:08):
nonsense and they know I can justbe honest with Mark. Is then sometimes
identify where an athlete go, yeah, not really that committed. You know
I like doing this, I don'tlike doing that, And you go,
well, we're back to the choicesthen. So the choices are we can
commit to all and you'll become thatif you're only going to commit to these,
then we need to lower the bar, but just be aware. I

(41:29):
mean if I was in a teamwhere that was the case, even if
that player we're building culture now andlong term performance development. If you play
as your best player, but theyone hundred percent lazy in every practice session,
they're not committing to the team,they're not doing what they need to
do, they're sat poor behaviors foreveryone else. But on match day they
turn up, I've just got tosay to that player, look, based

(41:52):
on the culture we're building, youmay not get picked. Be okay,
you're not going to get picked forthe first because let's agree the parameters of
who's going to get picked, andyes, one of them is capability and
performance on the picture on the court, but that's one. The others are
these elements what we do in practice, what we do when no one's watching,
in things like turning up for usand see in time, committing doing

(42:15):
your rehab, helping your other athleteslearn to understand whatever that may be.
These are the metrics that are goingto influence who gets the minutes on the
picture on the court. It's notjust about I'm the best player, because
that's not aligned to our lighthouse andthe culture we want to build, So
you just have those clean conversations andthen you honor the clarity of what you

(42:37):
said with the team. Now,where coaches go wrong is they don't have
that clarity of conversation. And thenobviously with the top teams, they're being
pressured by the media, etc.Of saying, well, hang on,
he's the best player, he shouldget picked. But if you look back
to the best, very most successful, if you look at premiership football managers,

(42:57):
if you speak to any of theones and the most successful is they
would ever allow a player to justturn up even if they were the best
on the pitch, They'd still putthem on the bench if they didn't do
the stuff in the practice time.And Ferguson was a great example. We've
got people now that do the same. So I think the challenge is is
for me, is the external pressureon a coach more than a coach knowing

(43:19):
what is the right decision to makein those moments. But if we haven't
aligned it, if we haven't preagreed it, we're not clarity and we
don't honor it. Then we getthis in and out we're not consistent.
That's when we lose the relationships.That's when we lose the respect God.
So how do you what do youdo? If well, how would you

(43:44):
handle this situation which I'm going toframe as a hypothetical situation. It's your
friend, said Stewart's it's your friends, Yeah, asking for a friend,
Mark asking for a friend. Yeah. So how do you get a situation
where you working with a group andhalf of them are leisure and half sorry

(44:09):
thirds, A third are just straightout leisure, a third are say their
performance but actually a leisure and thenthe other third are actually performance and they're
the only players you've got Because there'sa cultural dimension within the club where there

(44:30):
are the players either well, won'tplay for a variety of reasons, aren't
committed, won't travel along away games, or don't want to be part of
that group because they're not very niceand I don't like them and I'd rather
stay in my other group. Soyou've got this squad of players and there's
no one else to pick. It'seither these players or nobody. So how

(44:52):
do you manage that? It framesaround the rule of three and empathy.
The big element for me is makingsure that every player is aware itself of
which one of those they are.So it's no good a coach knowing it
and believing it if the player doesn'tbelieve themselves. So you've got to put
marks in place as well. Let'sdefine what a performance athlete is in the

(45:15):
on and off pitch, whether it'sa practice, whatever it may be,
so there's clarity, and then go, okay, let's benchmark where we are
and we're not saying you have tobe. Let's establish where you feel you
are. And then we've got somebenchmark measures to agree or disagree once we've
done that. It's getting everyone tounderstand, says, look, if we're
all here, we're all here fora reason. But at the end of

(45:37):
the day, we've got to understand, how can I not disrupt anyone else?
Is reason for being here. Soan example, if we've got these
performance athletes now that you know theywant to win, they want to do
everything they can to be the bestthey can be and play the most minutes
they can be and just be thebest team they can be. If you're
now recognizing you just like turning upand doing a few things, but you're

(45:59):
still playing a game. Is makingsure never to disrupt that player? What
can I do in practice going tohelp that player, to give them the
opportunities. How can I help testthat player so they want a bit of
a challenge in defense or attack becauseI don't want to disrupt that player.
But at the same time, theperformance player now is go okay. Don't
get wound up with the leisure playernow because they're still here and they can

(46:21):
still have values. So set yourexpectations, but let them know how they
can help you. But don't sethigh standards that they're never going to make.
But find a way to go okay. So in practice, what do
we all need to do and ensureno one's getting frustrated? Now everyone gets
what they need based on where theyare. So what can you do for
these players? What can you dofor these players? So we're building this

(46:44):
level of we can still put youease on that and go okay. So
what would be unacceptable now understanding whereeveryone is within these practice matches and then
you know the performance players, go, well, be unaccepted with me just
to get annoyed with this player becausenow I know where they are. But
for the leisure athlete, it wouldalso be will be unacceptable me to disrupt
or not give that performance player thechallenges they need in order for them to

(47:07):
be engaged and to be the bestthey can be. So this is around
excellence, but excellence will be theparameter about where they are. So you
know what is excellence right now ifyou're at that leisure athlete or in this
practice with these performance athletes, theones in the middle, stewart is where
often they have they're inaccurate in ifwe can use that word, in what
they think they are and what theyreally are. So that's again benchmarking.

(47:30):
Well, let's agree now what performanceis that those markers will Okay, now
let's look at the last two weeksor four weeks. Okay, align yourselves
to that. So now are weso your performance here? But you definitely
led you here? Okay, Sonow we're clear. So there is a
difference between those guys and you guys, but also you're slightly different than these
guys. But how can we understandeach other to help each other be successful

(47:52):
when we come together? Yeah,first and foremost, you're saying that the
notion of leisure and performance isn't aspectrum, it's a definition. You are
Definitionally, either someone who is performancei e. Prepared to commit to their

(48:15):
stated goals, their own definition ofexcellence, because excellence is defined by the
group or the individual, and someoneprepared to take the step to commit to
that. Using the every time philosophy, that performance anything other than that is
leisure. You're basically saying that's theway it is, which is why that
those people in the middle, they'reinaccurate. Right, So you're either this

(48:37):
or you're not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you in your experience,
how many people fall into that fallinto the performance bracket? How many
people generally fall into the leisure bracketinitially Obviously post intervention, maybe more become
more performance, But how many generallyin your initial engagements. I'd say,
if we just looked at and Ican include elite level as well, i

(49:00):
would say, I'm going to useround figures because it's no scientific data analysis,
I'd say good against sixty to seventypercent are leisure that think they're performance.
So it's not it would not beon it would not be new to
you to experience what I've just describedto you in terms of this is in

(49:22):
a more sort of a lower level. But you know, it's in theory
that the best team in the clubnot necessarily in the strata, but bet
team in the club, it's notit would not be. And so you're
saying, even in a performance realm, it's fairly regular occurrence for you to
experience seventy percent of the individuals tobe actually leather leather leisure and only thirty

(49:45):
to be roughly speaking, actually aperformance athlete. Yeah, I for your
benchmarking where they are within that environment. So a top league team, obviously
their expectations, expectations would be differentthan a professional or part time professional professional
or an amateur team. So basedon those I would say most teams have

(50:05):
leisure athletes within them. And inyour in your experience, do you find
that it's actually the tension between thosethat are performance driven and those that are
more leisure in their output output thatactually creates cultural fishers within the team.
And actually if you resolved that bygetting people clear on what their goals are,

(50:28):
then you actually begin to change theculture and they actually start to create
more harmony. Yeah, there's there'sa lot of disruption that can happen,
and you'll build it leco chambers whereall the performs will go together and complain
about the other little group and theirlittle group. We're complaining about those that
the elitists are, you know,But often where the challenge comes from as
a coach. So the coach thenbuilds up these limiting beliefs of well,

(50:52):
the athletes lazy, and they starttreating them differently, not in a way
of how can I influence them,They start treating them differently than the players.
I think he's a hard working player. So often a lot of my
work is to ensure the coach hasa method to see clarity with everyone,
So don't have invisible expectations in theirhead. Let's see clarity. Let's get

(51:14):
them to understand each other, andthen let's look at what can we do
back to needs centered over time thatcould influence these leisures to build into performance
because often it's not a deliberate element. Often, and I'm generalizing here,
but often athletes will get to ahigh level because they've managed to commit at

(51:35):
that level and they've still made itso their behaviors in their head have allowed
them to be successful. But actuallywhat they're not recognizing is, wow,
if I changed a few things,how much better could I be? And
sometimes if they're comfy where they areand they're still getting picked, and especially
if they're getting good money, etc. Then they go, why do I
need to change? So, youknow, there is a lot of angles

(51:59):
from the coaching point of view,and that's why I see good coaches really
spend a lot of time in makingsure everyone's clear on expectations, everyone's clear
on the choices they're making, informednow and understanding the indifferences, and then
aligning to whether they call it alighthouse or not as okay, So what
are the behaviors we need to betwenty four to seven to connect to a
lighthouse? Remembering not getting too deepor diversifying, because it's part of this

(52:23):
stew is remembering that wellness and performanceis symbiotic. So what we're not saying
is we're driving performance in the negativeripple of wellness. We're driving both at
the same time. Sorry, I'mjust writing that down now. So in

(52:47):
that in that situation, then whenyou have the majority who are leisure,
do you find that it's the performanceathletes that have to move towards the leisure
or is it once they understand needsand we've framed intentions and we've worked backwards

(53:07):
and given realism and understood more aboutwhat it will require of us to be
able to make these steps that actuallythe leisure moved towards performance. I think,
what there's light and shade to this, But if we look at the
common elements that tend to happen,is we need we need to make sure
and we set this up that theperformance don't drop. They may drop their

(53:30):
expectations of others, which will helptheir state so they won't get frustrated on
the pitch or on the core.What we tend to find is when we
do this correctly, we will geton pitch, in practice or on court,
the wellness will improve. So theydo start aligning to performance behaviors supervised

(53:50):
where we won't get a huge shift. It's a little slower is their behaviors
unsupervised. So we may see asubtle shift with some of the leisure where
to go, I'm enjoying this more. Maybe I'll sleep better, Maybe I'll
be more mindful on what I eat. Maybe I'll make sure I always pack
my boots or trainers before bed.You know, those little elements. But
the big shift we'll see initially isthey will perform harder, smarter better from

(54:15):
the warm up to when they walkaway in practice sessions, and I think
that's where a big shift can comequite quickly, and that's where the performance
athletes start to feel better. Butit's important we don't let them drop.
All we need to do is sometimesadjust their expectation of others. That often
can get them wound up in apractice. For in matches, you just

(54:42):
a minute ago said wellness and performancesymbiotic. Some people might not understand that.
Can you expand on that a little? Yeah, So if we think
about the language of wellness, thisis being in a good state. Obviously
the extremes of the depression, etc. Doubt, anxiety. So if we
think about driving performance based on behaviors, and that's where the action review process

(55:04):
comes around, about being aware ofmy state, regulating it, scanning,
identifying choices, committing to the choicebased on the variables, review choice,
execution in life just in the processthat allows me to be in control and
make judgment, not just caught anoutcome or what others think of me,
or what if this goes wrong.So, if we're building a culture of

(55:24):
go okay, what do I needto do to invest to allow me to
feel good, to have confidence whatI'm doing without fear and what are the
elements. So with sleep, meditation, mindfulness, me twenty minutes, thirtymites
for I walk to practice, I'mstarting to do what's my ideal self?
Now? What's success for me?What is my work on? And not

(55:45):
just turning up and then think whatdo I feel like today? So all
those elements is saying if we caninvest in that wellness on a daily basis,
we can get whether it's a psychor coaches that understand that, here's
a tool to share mindfulness, here'sa tool to help you get ready to
be ready. Let's explore this.Let's commit for four weeks. So everyone
does this and share what tools theyfeel they that work for them. But

(56:07):
we've got to commit to it likea skill before we know it's any good
or not. We can't just doit once. And we do that as
a collective. So when we're doingthat, what we're doing is we're allow
we're building and investing in the dailywellness. But by doing that, we're
maximizing performance. Because when people commanage their state better, when they can
make judgment better, when they commitwithout fear better, that can only impact

(56:29):
on the performance. So as opposedto looking at wellnesses. Oh, when
someone's got an issue, let's havea one to one with someone. If
you look at that is actually theyare so closely connected. If we invest
in each on a daily basis ina very simple way, then actually they're
enhancing each other that they shouldn't beseen as a separate process. Yeah.

(56:52):
I can totally see that, becauseactually, so many people's lack of wellness
stems from the fact that they've spiraledout of control and they're no longer they're
no longer have intention around the thingsthat they do. So this is where
they begin to start to fall intonegative behaviors, whether it's to do with,
for example, you know, lifestylechoices or whatever it might be,

(57:12):
and they're not mindful about those sortsof things. There's no lighthouse, there's
no focus, there's no sense ofpurpose. And you can understand how then
people fall into you know, kindof lef desirable behaviors because they haven't spent
the time clarifying the things that theyare important to them. Yeah, and
if you think about it, ifin practice we're you know, performances are
behavior not on an outcome. Youknow, that's sort of my tagle line

(57:36):
is if in every session a coachis always scanning for when they walk in,
and we want players to start doingthis as well. At all ages
and evosk you know they do thisat six seven years old. Players looking
at the players? Are they lookinga bit odd, a bit off to
normal? Okay, I'm going togo over and have a chat with them.
I'm going to see how they are. You know, I'm going to
get them fired up and ready.So, but the coaches need to be

(57:58):
scanning for that. Then in sessionif they see someone not connecting, is
just having that hot one to onewith them earlier? Okay, are you
getting what you need in this session? Okay? Talk to me. What's
happening over there? And if thingo I'm not feeling okay, could you
give me thirty seconds? What withthirty seconds? I can do thirty seconds?
Great? Show me that now,So all these elements of going,
all I'm asking you to do iscommit to the best choice based on your

(58:20):
present capability. Now you're feeling abit of fatigue, great, no problem.
But what can you give me now? I can do this for your
coach? Great. So we're gettingeveryone in any opportunity to don't focus on
what you cannot do, focus onwhat you can do. Now, what
options have we got? Now,well, let's commit to one of them,
and all of a sudden, thenyou get that positive spire and go,
I did that, okay, Sowhat's next? What can you give

(58:42):
me now? So this is andit goes back to the coaching principle of
often I'm generalizing here, Stuart,but often a coach may well say success
of the beginning of a session isthis. Then they'll kind of direct the
whole session. They'll have time out, but it'll be chatting about everything,
and then at the end they'll go, Okay, review that session, how
was that? But it's a bitlate then, So if we're connecting,

(59:05):
So if we have a time out, is we've got on the board.
This is what successes? These areyouues, software and hardware, So they're
separate, and we always have bothwithin every session. So when I come
in for a time out, okay, guys, review against these. How
are we doing? And now we'rekeeping the software hardware alive. We're not
waiting until the end of the session. And that's the same when we're developing
that positivity in you know, whenpeople talk about neutral states, so it's

(59:30):
not all fluffy, it's going,okay, this is where I am.
Now, Okay, so what canI do? What choice have I've got?
Now I can commit to this,right, I'm going to commit to
this. And it's that that Ifeel is a process where I talk about
software that I think a lot ofcoaches struggle because I think they think the
mental stuff is a psychologist job.My job is a technical, tactical job.
Now, I know a lot ofcoaches don't believe that, but generally

(59:52):
it's kind of where the language comesfrom. But if we look at it
as in hardware and software, ingreat decision make in soccer, hockey,
basketball, netball, all these principles, most of the great decisions and execution
happened through software, not hardware.In being aware of my state regulation,

(01:00:12):
it's scanning, making judgment based onthe bearables I see, and then committing,
then reviewing that the two elements thatthe hardware is the technical and the
tactical, but all the rest ofit is actually software. So if we
can keep that alive and cultivate thatin every session, all of a sudden,
now we're developing. We are developingpeople, not just players, but

(01:00:32):
actually we're maximizing performance in the playingof the athlete as well. So you
talked about this earlier on which isyou sort of touched on, I think
what you refer to as the ruleof three, which is so in the
construct of well being and wellness,when you've got a group and firstly the

(01:00:57):
level one, which is their selfaware and they have a degree of awareness
of their behavior, their states,the way they're interacting. Are they aligned
to their goals and they can callthemselves they can call it, hold themselves
accountable to whether they are or theyaren't, and check, you know,
kind of almost like pick in onthemselves to say, oh no, I
need to reevaluate, and all thosesorts of things. And the next layer
is then where they're given feedback orthey've got peers connecting with them, observing,

(01:01:22):
monitoring each other, and holding eachother accountable to the goals that we
established, but equally just checking inon each other and ensuring that everybody's okay
and and we aligned and this thatand the other. And then you've obviously
got coach at the level of thethird layer, which is sort of overseeing
these sorts of things, monitoring whetherindividuals are self aware enough to identify when

(01:01:43):
they're sort of not aligned, whetherthe peers are reminding them of the times
when they're not aligned, because thecoach needs to step in. And the
ultimate point is is that actually that'shappening so often and so frequently almost in
these sort of micro live hot reviews, happening time between players and individuals themselves,
that the coach doesn't have to everstep in. Often they do,
but it is generally speaking, that'swhat the after level we're getting trying to

(01:02:04):
get towards where it's actually managing itselfall the time. And in the construct
of well being, if you've gotown environment where individuals are both self aware
but also aware of others and awareof the state and the situations of others,
then you are going to create avery caring environment because holding each other
accountable to our stated goals and stayingwithin the behavioral the state and also the

(01:02:25):
behavioralner. You know, staying withinthose behavioral frameworks is not always easy to
do. It's easy to pull outof those. So the act of going
up to somebody and asking them ifthey are you know, are they are
they aligned? Are they staying withit? Are they in the process.
The other is an active care,not an active aggression. You know,
it can sometimes be met with somebodyfeeling it was aggression because then people aren't
used to the idea of we're goingto hold each other accountable to the goals

(01:02:49):
that we've established for ourselves, tobehaviors we've established for ourselves. But it's
not. It's an active care.And once you understand it's an active care,
then you actually create this really reallysupportive culture. Yeah, and that's
that interpersonal connection comes in it.And the three a's links to that rule
of two within the rule of three. And remember rule of one is if
you think about it simplicitly, youdo that in software and hardware. So

(01:03:10):
we did talk about the software thatI'm aware of my state. I'm scanning,
well, I'm on it, I'mnot. I'm struggling. I can't
self manage. So one, Ican still then reach out to a peer
because I'm comfortable now reaching out.I want to self manager. I can't.
I'm reaching out to Billy or Sarah. I'm struggling now. But on
the same time, my teammates arescanning me, and if they see me

(01:03:34):
starting to unravel, they start tolearn how can I interact with Jimmy or
Stevie or Sharon when she's struggling,he's struggling. I know I communicate in
this way. So I learned thevariables of different people. But also on
the same front, I become morementally robust. Even if because someone might
be stressed themselves, they're still reachingout to me. I may not like

(01:03:55):
how it's being said, but thefact that of reaching out to me is
great. So I'm not going to, oh, you shouldn't have said that
to me that way, I'm goingI'm taking it. And that's that three
aise of I'm internally accepting it.I'm acknowledging it in verbal or in hand
gesture so they know, and thenI'm acting on it. I'm committing.
So there's a framework now where we'rebuilding this clearly with every athlete at elite

(01:04:17):
level and at young age. Sonow at three, I'm just scanning and
if one and two is working,I don't need a step in. But
if only one and two isn't working, I've got so many variables, and
now I think on our last podcast, I think I should have had seven
when you asked me of okay,these are some of the interventions I can
do at coach without stopping the sessionthat can still influence at one and two,

(01:04:40):
And we use the same principle inhardware. In technical and tactical we're
still okay, I'm making the righttactical or technical choices. Now I'm struggling.
I reach out to a teammate teammagersseeing I'm making poor tactical choices.
Depending on what level of stress loadit is in early learning or in performance,
I'm going to communicate differently, butI'm I'm not going to let that

(01:05:00):
person die and trip up. I'mgoing to help them for next time.
So next time we next time Iso we we develop this interactive team live
in software and hardware, and thecoach are just there. So if the
coach needs a step in, they'vestill got that a light of shared coach.
Where it might be a little hotone to one with one player,
it might be right stuff a wholesession because that's what's needed in the moment.

(01:05:20):
It's not about stepping back and doingthat thing. But at least it
gives a coach a nice reference guyto know what to look for and give
the player space to grow and notjust go, I need to fix it.
Yeah, so you're you're you're leavingthe space and time for the interaction

(01:05:41):
to happen between the athletes rather thanimmediately stepping in and needing to deal with
that interaction. Like sometimes that mightbe a conflict interaction, but you're leaving
the space and time for that conflictto resolve itself before you have to step
in and get you know, kindof all over it. Depending. I
mean, obviously, if it's aphysical conflict, then you obviously have to
be intervene. But generally speaking,it's not. Generally speaking, it's just
a bit of a player up.But you can allow that to just sort

(01:06:04):
itself out. But that's very uncomfortablefor a lot of coaches because they don't
like seeing completes. Yeah, andalso back to that need centered approaches when
you're cultivating, particularly rule of twoin the rule of three, don't expect
in one session for them to getgood at it. That may take three
months. You'll see many wins,So don't think, oh, it's not

(01:06:26):
working, I'm just going to goback in and control and everything. Go.
Look, this is a new skill. Like anything, it takes time.
But are they pursuing excellence. Arethey doing the best of what they
have now? Yes, they arewell great, they're learning, keep growing.
You might do a little looke rounds, little hot one to ones,
but over months you're now seeing progress. Now imagine if you did that in
three months and you've got everyone livebut one and two self adapting, accepting

(01:06:49):
feedback in soper hardware. Where areyou going to be in a year's time
with that team? Phenomenal? Butwhat you didn't do, you didn't cut
it off just because it didn't workstraight away. You get a bit time
and cultivation, but you know andthey know you're relentless and patient in focused
on this. So it's always onthe board. So if your success is

(01:07:10):
bringing rule of toolive, that ison your reference board. So every time
they come in for a time out, we go review software and hardware.
How are we doing on this?So instead of wait until the end of
a session, we're connecting and keepingit alive during a session and that's where
the growth comes from. That's againanother trip up with some coaches. They
don't continually reconnect with the athletes backto the software success. They only connect

(01:07:35):
to the hardware and let you sayso, not necessarily always doing a reminder
of what their commitment is skin themto just restate their commitments, and then
doing that in you know, andbeing every time about that before the session
starts, so then we can reviewagainst that because if we don't clarify intention,
we can't review, and we don'tget the athletes to make the commitment,

(01:07:58):
we can't review because and also ifthey don't make a full commitment in
the session to honor what it isthat they've said they would do, then
you can't review. Yeah, andthen obviously the next layer you've got your
covert recalls, which is now,I'm not going to have a chat with
them the beginning of the session becauseI'm going to see has it been embedded?
So I'll just throw a game in. I might tell them, okay,

(01:08:18):
I want to focus on attack now, but what you're actually doing is
you focus on defense and hardware,but I'm focused on software. But I
haven't reminded them because I want tosee what's been embedded now. So that's
that's the reason why you do acovit recall. So you've got the overt
checks, you've got the keep italive connection where they're still owing and we're
going, okay, can you reviewagainst this? How are we doing?

(01:08:39):
You've got your covert checks, butwhat you have all the time is clarity
on your lighthouse, clarity on yourneed in your software and hardware now to
help you grow for the future.And that's the key. That's really that's
really interesting. I like the cowhat recall thing is something I've forgotten about

(01:09:00):
doing, actually, which is this, we've been working on this, Let's
see if it works and then seehow much is record And actually, no,
we haven't ready. We haven't gotthat. We're not ready now,
We're not ready to move on becausewe haven't actually got that embedded yet.
Yeah. One of the things thatmy team, after working with you,
always used to say to me whenI was in the rugby was we're ready
when we're ready. Became our mantra. Yeah, So for listeners, one

(01:09:26):
of the many little statement things thatpopps along with BDS is we are where
we are, We're ready when we'reready and where that helped with athletes,
but also it helps with coaches.So the reason I shared it initially many
years ago was coaches planned four orfive things on their session plan and they
felt they needed to get through.So my whole point would say, look,

(01:09:46):
prioritize them to one, two,three, four, and five.
And if you only get through oneand you don't even touch two, three,
four or five, but that's whatwhere your time and investments needed.
Great, it was success. Sothat principle of we are where we are.
Are we ready to move on yet? No? Well we don't move
on. That's no problem because weare where we are. We're ready when

(01:10:09):
we're ready, so long as we'repursuing excellence and committing to what we said
we're going to, and then we'retaking the pressure off everybody. We go,
Look, are we investing? Arewe committing to this? I guess
yes, Okay, are we readyyet? No? What's preventing us?
I think it's it's okay, dowe need to put a bit more time
in that element? Okay, great, no problem, let's do that.
But we're not going, Oh we'veonly got twenty minutes on this. Now

(01:10:30):
we need to move on. Andlikewise, I remember something you said,
which is will I think be absolutelymind mind bending for some coaches, which
is, if you establish a statedintent and you've got a certain amount of
time in your session, and youachieve it halfway through, you stop,

(01:10:54):
we've done it. Yeah, yeah, here that Yeah, we don't have
to keep feeling time. No,we've done it right. Yeah. But
I don't bet very few people thatwould do that because there's never enough time,
so you've always going to do somethingelse. But the principle of that,
now we can stop doing that,we'll move on to something else now
right, because we've actually achieved ourgoal for this particular activity. We'll now

(01:11:15):
add something else, or we'll juststop right, we're done. I have
done that once and they all went, hang on, no, no,
no, we can't go home.It's not the end yet. Yeah.
Now that there's a deeper element tothat that's important is we've got to be
mindful, especially when we're looking atlow level of mind mental strength in athletes.
So the level of time they canconcentrate on something is if we're planning

(01:11:39):
a two hour session or an hoursession, mentally, they may only be
able to put intention of quality forthirty minutes. So if you're doing an
hour session, you actually may besetting up thirty minutes of poor quality,
low intention because they're not yet readymentally to that engaged for that long.

(01:12:00):
So I know I'm generalizing on bignumbers there, but with something as coaches
we really need to be mindful ofis how if we want the level of
quality of intention, we don't justwant them to cruise. Shorter sessions with
quality of intention will be far betterthan longer sessions where people are cruising.
So always always really asking yourself,is are we cruising now or would it

(01:12:26):
be better doing less but having higherquality of intention? Always go for the
shorter that's useful. Yeah, Ilike that construct. Actually, let's just
go shorter but more intense and getmore from it rather than just billing the
time with average to mediocre levels ofintensity. Say I mean you say in

(01:12:49):
gym's all over the country in theworld to you, I mean I can
go in and I still train,you know, six times a week,
quite quality. But some of mysessions are thirty forty minute. But I'm
in the quality of intention I'm puttingin is far high than anyone else in
the gym. I'm leaving there,still in there, having a chat,
cruising through their movements. Well,unless they're doing muscular endurance, they're in

(01:13:10):
for a social chat, which isfine. But a lot of them say
they want to change their muscle ortheir fitness or their conditioning. Is well,
okay, so before you watch thatgym, do you know what success
is? Do you do you knowwhat? They'll have the intention you need
in every exercise, we'll commit tothat. Now, if you're committing to
that, you won't be doing twohours in the session. You'll be doing
thirty forty minutes and you'll be done. Your body will be done. So

(01:13:30):
that's an example that happens generally acrossmost gyms. I see. Yeah,
yeah, definitely the case. Reallygood refresher and a reminder of this.
So a couple of things to justtalk about as we sort of just wrap
this up. You just said atthe start of the start of the conversation

(01:13:55):
that you've now got one hundred andfifty hours of resources in your online learning
space, which is PDS two pointzero. So how do people get access
to all of that? On thewebsite pdscoach dot com. And you'll see
when you go on there, yousee the members area. Just click into

(01:14:15):
that and you just sign up.There's a free content there so you can
explore it and see you know whatyou're going to get. But that what
we've talked about. Now, ifwe look at everything we talked about,
there is maybe five percent of thetools and principles that are in that members
area. You know, my tutorials, me going through this every step,
every tool, how do it fittogether, how you build a culture,

(01:14:36):
the trip ups you're going to face, how you make yourself aware as a
coach, how you set your workon, how you set your peer support
groups that you don't even need mefor video examples, Q and as with
people that have been through the journeyin their struggles short tutorials. Now I'm
putting loads in where it's just aquick snapshot you can go to as a
reference. There's points where you canput any comments in questions and every element

(01:15:00):
work through and there's an opportunity forQ and A's in there as well if
you've got a question for me.So it updates every single month, so
if I see a trend, I'llrecord something else and add it in there.
But I don't think there's anywhere elsein the world in this type of
coaching that will give you that levelof resource. And of course, now,
as you mentioned at the start,you know there's a couple of contracts

(01:15:21):
that have unfortunately not materialized. Soyou've got a bit of spare capacity.
So if an organization or somebody froma club, or someone from a body,
or somebody from anywhere else wants toget involved, is that the best
way to get in touch with You'veeither website or yeah, contact me.

(01:15:42):
You can contact me straight through thereor you know on my Twitter everything's PDS
coach as a direct message. Butyeah, I've now because of things out
of my control back to some thingsyou can't control, I've now got availability
per performance client, So that isme supporting you through the whole season from
pre seas and through or a nationalgoverning body if you want to shift culture

(01:16:03):
and develop your coaching pathway or business, it's their big interventions of support.
But again, if you just wantsome coach mentoring, then I can always
fit that in as well for individualcoaches. Beautiful. Mark's been great to
reconnect, give me some nice refresherson some of the things that I need

(01:16:25):
to realign to get intentions attention clarified. Yeah, it's been really good to
really good to have a conversation andI'm looking forward to seeing who you work
with next. My question to you, Stuart is from this, what's been
your main takeaways like your refresher oryour connection. What's what's been the main
resonate elements for you? Well,you won't be surprised. Is it's around

(01:16:49):
this notion of getting the getting theclarity of intention, you know, creating
the lighthouse and then working backwards aroundthe actions the behaviors and framing that then
into the session and then clarity ofsession. And actually one of the biggest
things is actually this notion of thereview process happening regular but reviewing against intention

(01:17:11):
and being clear of intention session tosessions, but then those reviews happening throughout,
not just at the end or atsome other point, just you know,
continuously asking the question, where arewe against what we said we were
going to try and achieve what theoutcome set, the plan of the session
is going to be the goals ofachieve and you know, against the hardware
and the software mapping those two thingstogether. Awesome, awesome, Right,

(01:17:38):
thanks very much. I'll let youknow on my progress. Thanks to you,
Hot Reviews, Cold Reviews, kinnamIn. Thanks for listening to the
Talent Equation podcast. If you likethe show, then please consider supporting it
by leaving a review on your favoritepodcast player, telling your friends about it,

(01:17:59):
or even becoming azo and show yourappreciation by becoming a patron. Just
head over to the Talentequation dot codot uk and click on the Becoming a
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The coach as a 'performance architect' - a conversation with Mark Bennett OBE

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The coach as a 'performance architect' - a conversation with Mark Bennett OBE