From Therapy Couch to Thriller: Nikki Allen on Writing The Hideaway, ADHD, and Finding Your Literary Voice.

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're tuned into the Writing Community Chat Show, the live
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and more indie or established. This shows for the community,
and we invite you to be a part of it.
Head to the Writing Community Chatshow dot com for more info.
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Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hello and welcome to the Writing Community Chat Show. Hello everybody,
and welcome to the Writing Community Chat Show. We've got
another great guest for you tonight and a great show
coming up. And I hope you are all doing very well.

(00:52):
I was just trying to control my laughter for numerous reasons.
But Hello, Chris, how are you doing?

Speaker 3 (00:57):
How's you?

Speaker 4 (00:59):
Hello to you? How are you?

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Yeah, I'm good. I've had an up and down week,
you know, day life, work life pit up and down.
But working on some positive manifest manifestations this week, which
is something that you know, we're working on our health
and our positivity recently, and that's that's kind of working
out pretty well. So Yeah, how has your week been?

Speaker 4 (01:23):
It's been good, kind of complain. Yeah, it's been a
good week and we've got a really good guest obviously
because we we've interviewed this guest very briefly recently, but
looking forward to chatting to it tonight and getting to
know more about her story and her journey into writing. Yeah,
it would be fun.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
It will indeed. And a little announcement we've got for
you if you're watching this on a live or you're
going to watch it back, or you're listening on the podcast,
we have a new store available and it's called a
stand Store. Now part of this weird, I say weird,
but and different to my usual routine of the positivity
world and the manifestations and all of that good stuff.

(02:07):
I read about how you need to pay attention to
the nudges from the universe, and Chris sent me a
message this week this week about the stand stare, and
I decided, let's go with it, and let's start creating
stuff on there and see what happens. And we created
that store and I've really bought into it, and because
it's beneficial to the community. And I don't go with

(02:28):
things that are perhaps you know, could help I don't know,
generate income or whatever if they're not beneficial to you guys.
But this is fantastic. So let me share a little
screen with you. Sorry for you. If you're listening to this,
you'll have to just catch up on the video. But
it's got a few you know, we've interviewed three hundred

(02:49):
and sixty plus people. We've got a lot of experience
and wealth of knowledge from them, and we've turned it
into documents and digital downloads that you can get hold
of that can help you writing. You on track with
your writing progress, and we've got a community feature on
there that you'll be able to share a lot of
things into it, from your blurbs and your little bits

(03:10):
of writing that you want feedback on and connecting with
other authors, and also get a perk like five minute
feedback critique from me and Chris on a monthly basis.
So if I share that screen with you, I'll show
you the community. So this is the Writers in a
Circle and it's a forum that's really cool, and this

(03:30):
is where you can post and get engaged with other
writers and we've got some resources on there. So as
a perk, you get the feedback, the five minute breakdown
and suggestions for me and Chris. Having used all that experience,
you know that we've learned on the show, and you've
also got your purchases. So if you've bought things on
there such as your master plan, character guide, your count tracker,

(03:55):
which I think is a really good little tool that
we've made, a pitch builder, and your author blueprint, there
are things on there that can really help you. So
that is something that we want you to check out
if you can do, and we'll leave links in the description.
If you've been on our socials, you would have seen
that we launched it yesterday. There's been a good few
viewers to that already and someone's already bought a little

(04:17):
thing off there, so hopefully they're using that tool really
well to their advantage. But we urge you to get
into that and to become part of the community, and
we'll be active on there and engaging with you guys
as well. But take advantage. There's lots of things that
we can offer, and more importantly that between yourselves you
can offer to each other as well. So that's something

(04:38):
we've worked hard on this week.

Speaker 4 (04:41):
Yeah. I also told you to talk to the trees.
How many trees.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
You did? You really did, Chris, I have not talked
to any trees.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
I do apologize, Yeah, I mean the manifestation thing, mate,
talking to trees. Apparently. I've not tried it myself, but
apparently it's really good. Apparently they're connected obviously via their
roots to the world. And yeah, apparently if you talk
to them they can yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah, Well there is a picture of me hugging a
tree at a music festival. Because other people were doing it,
I thought i'd get involved, and that exists somewhere. We'll
have to find that out for you. But I've definitely
not talked to any trees, and I will put that
on my list of to do things. So thank you
for that one.

Speaker 4 (05:25):
Chris, You're welcome.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
Have you hugged a tree if you're watching or listening,
let us know. I'd be interested though if you have,
and what impact it has had. So what I'm going
to do is I'm going to introduce tonight's guest and
I'm going to get them on and we're going to
talk about many things, including the writing journey, the book
for the Hideaway, which is absolutely fantastic, and what's going
to come out next maybe and also get questions answered

(05:53):
from you guys. Anya says in the comments, I hug
trees and commute with them, sorry, come with them.

Speaker 4 (06:01):
Mhmm. Let us know if you've had any successes in
terms of Apparently it's supposed to ask the why am
I about that? Apparently it's supposed to ask the trees
for something that you want in your life and offer
the tree a sort of token gift to protect it.

(06:22):
And yeah, things are meant to happen.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
So what kind of gift would you give a tree?

Speaker 4 (06:28):
Something to protect it? Apparently, so it can be you know,
I don't know. I'm not a tree protecting expert, but
there'll be things that I'm not the most educating person
on this. This is just a thing I came across.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
You brought the trees up, That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (06:45):
Right, I think we should get the guest up though, because.

Speaker 3 (06:48):
Really, okay, yes we will so, and yeah, if you
do have any knowledge of trees and what you do
with them, please let it's not so tonight. We have
an absolutely thrillerssation joining us, as she is titled The
Therapist who Writes Crime Thrillers. A fantastic so An author

(07:08):
has gone from being signed by the prestigious Pam Mellon
for her gripping debut novel to an interview at the
Harrogate Crime writ As Festival with us. She has a
b a CP registered therapist. She is a BACP therapist,
oh my god, who channels that deep understanding of the
human mind into razor sharp suspense. Her book The Hideaway,

(07:30):
a chilling story set the wilderness retreat gone wrong, has
been making waves, been in the counter coveted title of
Apple Books Thriller of the Month, and shortlisted for the
UK Book Blogger Awards. So please give a huge warm
writing community to welcome to the author of The Hideaway,
the amazing Nikki Allen. Hello, Nikki, Hello.

Speaker 5 (07:51):
Thank you so much for having me and I want
to get right in there on the tree hugging chat.
By the way, we're not going to let that one slide,
because I would definitely say that hugging a tree comes
highly recommended from personal experience and from with my therapist
head on as well. I would say absolutely give it
a go all listeners and both yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah, And I just said she trinkets rum to give
my rum to a tree, a songs, hoops and stones,
et cetera.

Speaker 5 (08:23):
So yeah, absolutely offerings offerings to the tree. Yeah, they're
so calming and peaceful. I think it's a great technique
for kind of anxious moments actually just go even without
the hugging, just going and looking at trees and green things.
You know, there's actually research, like scientific studies have been
done on this that actually show that it's it kind

(08:46):
of is proven to lower anxiety levels and stress levels
and really help people living with depression just to be
around trees and green things.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
I agree with that. Some of my most pleasant moments
going through even difficult times is going out on the
hikes in the forestries. So I've walked past through Chris,
but I've not huged them, so they've been really good. So,
but hello, how are you doing? Before we get into.

Speaker 5 (09:10):
Anything else, I'm good. I'm so happy to be here.
We had such a great time chatting at Harrogate, so
I was really excited to come on. So I'm good.
Although it is the start of half term now, so
I've got a week of goodness knows what kind of
juggling coming up. But apart from that, all good. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
I mean Chris gets a week off with his teaching
and I do not, so I'm very jealous at this
time of year. But yes, I also have a picture
of proof that we did because I found these and
I wasn't too sure if you've seen them. So there's
one of us chatting.

Speaker 5 (09:39):
No, I haven't seen that one. Oh, look, we're having
so much fun.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
So good. I think the expression on the woman's face
at the front perhaps means I said something probably inappropriate,
but the ego, yeah, we're having we're having laughter, and
that's the most important thing, exactly. Yes, So we're whereabouts
in the world are you joining us from?

Speaker 5 (10:01):
So I am in the lovely suburb of Southgate in
North London, which, if anybody happens to know the tube lines,
it's at the top of the Piccadilly Line. That's the
easiest way to describe itself, like the top of London,
almost going into Hertfordshire. And I'm talking to you live
from my living room, which I'm glad you can't see
the rest of because it's a chaos of train tracks

(10:24):
and magnets and goodness knows what else. So I found
a little calm corner.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
To talk to you. No, I agree with that, because
the mess behind here is terrible. Yeah, So one question
we'd love to ask, and it kind of proves how
society kind of is within the writers' world, what is
the writing kind of scene like where you are, do
you get connected with authors in the real world or
do you mainly connect online?

Speaker 5 (10:51):
So it's I think my connections have mostly started online
and then turned into with the ones that are kind
of geographically not too far then turned into kind of
real life connections as well. But that does seem to
be how it's happened. So I met, you know, other
writers through writing courses that I did or groups or communities,

(11:13):
and then as I got agented met some of my
agent sibling authors connected with them. So it all kind
of happened virtually to begin with. And then also now
with social media, I think since I got my book deal,
I started kind of trying to build a little bit
more of a profile on Instagram and so connecting with
people there and then again bringing those connections then into

(11:37):
real life arranging to meet with people when we're at
the same event or festival or whatever it is. So yeah,
so it's kind of started online and then it's moved
more into kind of real life community. And I would
say that a lot of the writers that I met
first online have now become really good friends, to the
point where if I'm having a wobble, a book related wobble,

(11:59):
a crisis of what am I doing? This makes no sense?
I need to start this again. That we will kind
of leave each other long rambling voice notes. And it's
just so helpful and supportive. It's just a different kind
of friendship to other friendships that I've had before, because
even though we come together because of writing in books,
we also have so many other things in common as well.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
Yeah, it's really nice, isn't it to have that support
and be able to experience and learn from everybody else
as well. So interestingly you mentioned about the writing groups.
How did that Has that been a help for you
and was that sort of part of your crucial part
of your becoming the successful that you have been so far.

Speaker 5 (12:42):
I think it was, actually, yeah, I think it was.
And mostly because this I don't know if this is
true for other people, but it was definitely true for me.
I just couldn't seem to get a book done in isolation.
So even though the process of obviously writing is solitary,
you know, the actually getting it done, the dedication, the motivation,

(13:06):
the sitting down every day to do the first draft,
the going back, going through edits I couldn't have done
that without having a kind of a group. And I
signed up to somewhere called the Novelry And even though
I signed up to a couple of the courses with them,
but actually the thing that helped me the most wasn't
the courses. It was the community. It was, yeah, having

(13:30):
other people to chattoo, kind of running things by people.
They do these kind of golden hour writing as where
writers can just show up all together and sit in
a zoom room all together and write. And I did
stuff like that, and it just it meant that I
actually got it down, so and I don't know if
I could have done it without that, And that might

(13:50):
be part of how my brain is whired. I have
adhd it is it gets in my way. I will
have an idea, but that doesn't mean that I got
loads of ideas. That doesn't mean I can always get
them down. But having that supportive community was made all
the difference for me. Yeah, definitely, it's great, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
And you mentioned something there was like together and as one,
and that is literally our motto together as when we
get it done because we completely agree that it's being
part of you know, like you mentioned the solitary side
of things is the most difficult part of it, and
you're constantly on this journey of learning and understanding. When
you've got those people beside you, even if it's virtually,

(14:33):
they can really help you push forward and work together.
So yeah, I think it's really bald.

Speaker 5 (14:37):
And one hundred percent and just having people as well
sort of believing in you and your writing and your book.
And I'm doing that like for somebody else at the
moment who really doesn't believe in themselves, and I'm saying
to her, please don't give up on this book, and
she I know that for her that is so helpful
of reminding her that she can do this. And that's

(14:58):
that's what I needed so much well, because I think
sometimes we can really get in our own way, you know,
with writing and sort of talk urself. For me, I
was like talking myself out of my ideas and oh,
but this is rubbish, looking at my first draft and
going oh, this is terrible, not realizing that actually it's
a first draft. Of course it's terrible. That's fine, it's

(15:18):
supposed to be terrible. It will get better in the edits.
But you know, without having those kind of people mirroring
that back to me, I would have done what I'd
done a thousand times before, you know, and started something
and then given up. So yeah, yeah, I think it
makes all the difference. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
Cool, We're going to play a little video and then
we're going to get into part one, which is the
Road to writing, and then we're going to learn about
how you started this entire journey because that's going to
kind of interesting, and how you then became assigned by
Pamina Mallin. So part one coming up. So yeah, of course,

(16:07):
like I mentioned, you were signed by Palmett Malin and
then attended the hag cromer As Festival and you know,
become three of the Month by Apple Books Lately. But
that all started somewhere. So at one point in your life,
did you think writing is something that I want to do? Ah?

Speaker 5 (16:23):
Do you know? I wish I had something more original
to say, because I'm sure everybody says this, but I
think I always always thought that I wanted to be
a writer. And I still have these little books that
I made, you know, when I was six, and they've
got great titles like the Adventures of Silly Susie Sausage

(16:43):
and I got my mom to take them to work
and like laminate them, and obviously that's how I think.
Actually most of them I started and never even finished.
But clearly I had the idea from an early age
and I carried that with me all the way through
sort of school and UNI. And it was after UNI
that I thought I really want to write. I want

(17:05):
that to be my career. And was met with a
lot of resist, a lot of people saying, oh, you're
not going to make any money from that, and it's
not very sensible career and you're too you know, maybe
it's too early in life to write a novel or something.
So I thought, oh, okay, I'll do something else instead
that involves writing, and I went and became a journalist.
So I studied journalism at my local newspaper. I got

(17:30):
a job like at this local paper called the Worcester Standard,
in case anyone listening is from the West Midlands, that's
where I grew up. And it was brilliant. It was
like cats stuck up trees, village face, you know, all
the big, big break in stories. But it was the
best training for getting to grips of what makes a story,

(17:54):
you know, and sort of learning about writing, and then
from there I stuck around doing a few different journalism
jobs in different specialisms that did food and drink journalism,
I did some business journalism and then sort of moved
from that into copywriting and went freelance sort of a
few years later in my late twenties. So I have
always been writing in some form or another. I took

(18:17):
this slight divergence for a few years where I was
always been so interested in psychology as well, and went
and did a qualification and training to become a therapist.
And that's some work that I still do, so I
still have a private practice in therapy. But all along
I was like, this is I's still got to keep
the writing going. I just don't know what that's going

(18:38):
to look like around sort of therapy in terms of
actually writing a novel. So like really the creative writing,
the ideas kept popping up sort of over and over again,
like for about maybe maybe about five years ago. It
was the time that it was I was coming up
to quite a big birthday as well, and it was
that feeling of like if I don't write this book

(19:02):
that my brain has been harping on about for years,
for I just don't try to do it now. I
wonder when I'll actually do it, like if not now?
When it was kind of one of those moments and
I thought, well, I know how to write. I've been
as in I know how to write journalism, I know
how to do copywriting. That doesn't mean that I know

(19:22):
how to write a book at alls. It's a completely
different thing. So why don't I learn how to do that?
And that's when I signed up. It was in twenty
twenty two. I signed up and did a course with
the Novely that I mentioned before, and wrote a book.
And that book is not The Hideaway. So to be clear,
the first book that I wrote is not the one

(19:45):
that ended up getting a deal with pamcmillan. It did
get me an agent though, it did get me representation,
and it was another thriller. It was set in the
Scottish Highlands. It's I don't do you know what a
bothy is either?

Speaker 3 (20:00):
Review?

Speaker 5 (20:01):
Do you know what bothy is? Right? So, oh well
you're gonna know now. So in the highlands of Scotland,
anyone that's going kind of like hiking walking. If you
want to do a longer trek, you can stay overnight
in these kind of they're like old shepherd's huts, so
really really old but sort of far outbuildings things like that,

(20:23):
and they've now been turned into just kind of free
for all lodges that anybody can go and stay in
if they're hiking. You can't lock the doors. The doors
always have to stay open. There's nothing really in there.
There's no water, there's no electricity. Now, I found this
idea just about the creepiest thing I'd ever heard when
I spent a lot of time in the Highlands and
I was like, gosh, that's a good setting for a thriller.

(20:45):
So that was this first thriller, right. It was a
woman who wakes up in a bothy in the Highlands
and she's got no memory of what she's doing there,
and she's trapped inside. So that was the premise. I
had a lot of fun writing it. I queried it,
I works in it for about eighteen months. I queried
it in twenty twenty three, sort of summer twenty twenty three,
and my amazement, I got a lot of interest. I

(21:08):
had several offers of representation, and I chose I was
in a really incredible position, and I still think now
that that was just one of that was the best
feeling ever. It was one of those moments where as
an author, I was like, I'm the one with the
choices here. I've got all of this, and it was
an incredible feeling that for me and my journey hasn't

(21:31):
necessarily been that's not really the norm, you know, but
it was a real high. It was a real high
having all these this kind of choice of agents, and
I chose my agent, and interestingly I had all these
offers and almost everybody these offering agents were saying, this
Buffy book is great, we want to get it out there.
We think we can get a deal for it. But

(21:52):
one agent said, this is good, but I don't think
it should be your debut. What other ideas have you got?
And at that point I had nothing, really. I had
literally one line in my head, which is a bunch
of strangers win a place on a retreat in the
Costa Rican rainforest and the host disappears but they're led

(22:16):
off into the jungle. And I said that's all I've got,
you know, sorry, and she said that's your debut. I'd
like to represent you to work on that book. And
that was the agent I went with, you know, that
was the agent I went with because I really liked
the idea of somebody really pushing me, and she's a
great agent and she and I think her advice was right. Actually,

(22:38):
I think it was the right. I think the Hideaway
and even that hook that I had for it was
you know, more sort of commercial. It was more clearly thrillery.
You know, it was kind of easier to sell. So yeah,
so then we worked on that together. I kind of
I wrote it, my agent gave me feedback. We did
a few rounds like that over the next year, and
then in July twenty twenty four we went on submission.

(23:03):
So my agent sent that The Hideaway wasn't actually called
the Hideaway. Then it was called I think it was
called the Wilderness Retreat or the Sanctuary Retreat or something
like that. And it was so blown away that in
a few weeks, in a couple of weeks I think
it was, Pamet Millan expressed interest and to get to
acquisitions and then decided to offer, and they offered me

(23:24):
a two big deal, so the Hideaway plus one other book,
which I'm now in the process of editing. And then
it came out this July. So that was a slightly
long and rambling plotted history of how it got to
where I am, but I hope it gives you an
idea anyway.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yeah, it's really interesting that the whole finding the agent
process for people to hear about. So what was your
first sort of step towards gaining an agent that maybe
one that you wanted or you kind of spreading it
out there to find someone to take it on.

Speaker 5 (23:57):
Yeah, such a great question. So I treated it like.
I took it really seriously. I did so much research
because and I still think this is true now, but
I remember reading advice that like the wrong agent, having
the wrong agent or somebody that's not really a good
fit for you is kind of worse than not having

(24:18):
an agent at all, Like you're better off with no
agent than the wrong one. And so I, yeah, yeah,
so I took that really seriously. I did lots of research.
So I went on. The first thing I did is
I looked up who are the agents that rep my
favorite authors or authors that have got careers that I
really admire and really respect and would love to sort

(24:41):
of emulate in some way. And one of my favorite
authors in the universe is Will Dean. I love his books,
I love his writing. I love I also love his
career and how he's kind of doing sort of in tandem.
He's got this kind of detective thriller series and then
he's also got these standalone thrillers as well.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Well.

Speaker 5 (25:00):
I just thought he's doing fantastically well. And so I
was like, I wonder who reaped him, and found out
that was the reason that I submitted, for example, to
the agent who then became my agent, And it was
a similar process. I looks up, you know, who reps
the authors that I really love their books, I really
admire their career, and I made a short list of those.

(25:21):
I then went through are they opened to submissions, which
ones are open, which ones aren't, And then I did
spend some time, and not everybody says to do this,
but I did. I spent some time, like tailoring my
query letter for each agent so that I was specifically
pulling out you know, because of your you know, because
of your client wild your author, client, Will Deane, I'm

(25:42):
wondering if you'll be interested in a book with X,
Y and Z similar themes to Will Deane, for example,
or even just to say, because I really admire X
Y and Z author that you represent, I wanted to
send you x Y and Z. So it wasn't loads,
but I think I did decide to do that because yeah,
I think I don't honestly don't know if that's what

(26:04):
makes a difference. And when I since had lots of
conversations with my agent about why do they, you know,
why do they choose who they choose kind of thing,
and she says that really it does come down to
the query and the pages. You know, people sort of
rarely actually read the synopsis and the tailoring is at
the end of the world. If somebody misses off, you know,
tailoring or writing a perfectly structured qureer letter, but their

(26:26):
pages are brilliant, then that's always going to be the
most important thing. But yeah, that was something that I did,
sort of tailoring those letters. I didn't send out tons
of quers. I think it was only about fifteen, and
I got so many and this was such a shock,
but I got so many full manuscript requests and the offers.

(26:49):
One of my offers that I had came in with
in I think twenty six hours or something, so it's
very fast. It was very fast, which sounds amazing, but
was actually quite overwhelmed. It was quite overwhelming because then
I had to sort of go and let all of
the other agents know I've had an offer, so I
need you to get back to me within X, Y
and Z time, and then they all stuck a reckon
it was Yeah, it was, it was. It was hectic,

(27:11):
So I don't know if I'd necessarily recommend it like that,
but that's what I did anyway.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
Yeah, yeah, powers in your hands at that point. Yeah, Chris.
Chris also loves Will Dene and yeah, he's a great person.
But I think you're absolutely right there because what that
does by identifying this is similar to X Y Z,
it means that it's within the capabilities to deliver. So
you know, if you if you state the fact that

(27:36):
it's like what you already sell, they straight away think, well,
let's check it out. If it is, then we can
sell it. So I think that's a great bit of
advice for people.

Speaker 4 (27:47):
Yeah, Nick, I'm really interested in two things. One, obviously,
the hideaway we won't talk about in detail until we
get to the what's the story element, But I'm really
fascinated having written one book and then writing another one
with your agent. You didn't make it easy for yourself
in terms of You've got multiple points of view in there.

(28:07):
You've got characters that I'm going to I don't know
if this is the right word, mar my characters that
you love to hate in the book, so that they're
difficult skills in order to, you know, take on for
what is essentially the second time with you writing a novel.
So can you talk us through that process? Actually from

(28:27):
that one line that you had then getting it into
an entire novel.

Speaker 5 (28:35):
It was a process of genuinely thinking I'd made the biggest,
the most catastrophic mistake of my life. That I remember
thinking my agent has just got it wrong, Like she
thought that I could do the book, but I can't.
And at one point am I going to have to
tell her that I'm really sorry, you made a massive mistake.

(28:59):
I can't write, actually write this one. I mean that
was part of the process to be sure i'd created
Do you know what was helpful? I always knew that
I wanted it to be kind of multipov and have
these slightly milt characters because that's what I love to read.
That's what I love to read. Those are like my
favorite books to read. So I spent quite a lot

(29:21):
of time like studying those books. How do they do it?
Like Lucy Clark is an author who I really admire,
who does that really well? Like she also kind of
destination type thrillers. There's always these multiple points of view.
We always have characters who, again you might love them
or hate them. So I was really studying it, like
how does she do it? How did she separate between them?
How do the points of view all kind of work together?

(29:42):
How do you create that kind of unreliable narrator as
well in there? And so I did a lot of
like pulling apart other books about how they did it.
I also and I think this was really helpful. I
asked my agent to kind of look at it in chunks.
So I sent over I think first I sent her
a chap to outline, you know, what do you think
of this? Do you think it's working?

Speaker 3 (30:01):
You know?

Speaker 5 (30:01):
Then redrafted that. We did that a couple of times,
and I then sort of sent her I think I
wrote about twenty five thirty thousand words, sent that to her,
How is this all working? Let's get that right before
we carry on. And then I sort of tore that
apart after her feedback, did that again and then continued
and was kind of getting feedback from her as I went.

(30:21):
That made me feel a lot more reassured that I
could could do it, you know, because you're totally right, Like,
thinking about creating this whole new book that was really
ambitious was pretty daunting, and I did have a lot
of moments of thinking, I'm never going to pull this off.
But I think in the end, we did a lot

(30:42):
of you know. And that's the other thing. We did
a lot of drafts, you know, and I that's just
something I just didn't know before I've started trying to
write creatively, that your first draft is not going to
be it. You know, it's not going to be working.
You know. For me, in my first draft, my characters
are like really super f and stuff doesn't really make sense,

(31:03):
and the pacing is all wrong, and that's normal. But
then what happens is you go back in the draft
and back in and back in, and then you can
really create those points of view that are actually working,
and create the unreliable narrator and get the pacing going
and everything like that. So yeah, there was a lot
of drafts a lot of breakdowns, lots of tears, but

(31:25):
having somebody who really believed in me and having my
agent kind of going, I know what you're capable of,
I know you can pull this together obviously really helped
as well.

Speaker 4 (31:34):
Yeah, the second question that I was to do with
the psychology, because it's it's really interesting. Obviously you're trained
in this background. That's like three targeted questions I suppose
about the psychology. How much does it come into play
in terms of your own conscious when you are writing
but then also negotiating with agents and then pic choosing

(31:58):
the right publisher. How much of your experience in that
field comes to the forefront when you're making those sort
of decisions.

Speaker 5 (32:08):
God, what an amazing question and kind of really hard
to answer, because the honest truth is, I don't know
how to because I've been doing this work for quite
a few years, and also I've been in therapy myself
for about fifteen years, so it's so and I did
as psychology masters in my twenties, so it's almost so

(32:29):
much a part of my way of thinking and sort
of having relationships and negotiations and deciding on things now
that it's hard to separate what is me using psychology
and what is me just being me? I don't know
if that makes any sense. It's quite difficult to distinguish

(32:49):
what's what, but I will say that I am. I
think that that background and that thinking about negotiations choices
the right agent to go with all of that. I
think it's so hugely influenced by my sort of therapy

(33:11):
background and knowledge. For example, just like really honest, authentic
communication something I'm always encouraging my clients to do, trusting instincts,
going with what feels right to you, having boundaries, being
really clear, like what's okay for me here, what's not?
Like all of that is definitely in there, and I

(33:33):
wouldn't know how to let it not be. If that
makes any sense. I don't know if I've described that
very well, but hopefully you get what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (33:41):
Yeah, I'll listen back to that because my internet decided to.

Speaker 5 (33:44):
Cut out, but you're back.

Speaker 4 (33:47):
Yeah, I'm sure it's a great answer. Yeah, It's just
something that fascinates me in terms of like people who
are knowledgeable about how the human mind works and stuff like,
can they manage situations where they do have self doubt
better way than somebody who doesn't do they take themselves
out and you know, coach themselves through it and go,
you know you expected this, this is going to happen,

(34:07):
but this is.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
What you need to do.

Speaker 5 (34:09):
I see what you mean. I see what you mean. Yeah,
I think I answered something different. But that is such
a great again, such a great point. Do you know
what I would I'm just going to be totally honest
that as a therapist I am. I can say all
of the things, all of the things to my clients
and the people that I'm working with. I can almost

(34:32):
never apply that same thinking to myself to myself, right,
Like I could objectively, I could see somebody in the
situations that I've been in and can kind of would
give them all of the tools and the and the
ways to see it and kind of look at their
thinking and things like that. It's so hard to do
that on myself. And I think most therapists would say that. Actually,

(34:56):
I think like, yeah, there's a phrase, isn't there that?
Like we teach each others what we ourselves most need
to learn, and so many therapists are kind of those
wounded heal It's like we've been drawn to go into
that work because we struggle with all of those things ourselves.
So you know, I'd love to say that since I've
become a therapist, I don't really have that anxiety. I
didn't find it anxiety provoking to go on submission. I

(35:18):
wasn't upset by bad reviews, and that would not be
the truth.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
That's not true for anybody that writes books. Brilliant. Okay,
there were two great answers, by the way, Chris, even
the one that was there before you disconnected. Very briefly,
what we're going to do is we're going to go
into the second part of the show, which is what's
the story. We're going to talk about the Hideaway and
then what may also be comming, and that is part two.

(35:45):
Community note, what's the story? So I'm going to play
that video and we'll get straight into it. So, Nikki,
the Hideaway is a story that we talked about in

(36:07):
depth at the Crimerits Festival. But for those who have
not seen that interview, can you let everybody know what
that's all about? Please?

Speaker 5 (36:14):
Yeah? Absolutely, So I kind of hinted a little bit
about the sort of the overall plot and hook before,
but it is a destination thriller is where we would
kind of categorize it. We're following five strangers who all
win a place on a luxury week long spiritual wellness

(36:35):
retreat in the Costa Rican rainforest hosted by a tree
hugging Oh yeah, you bet, you bet. Yeah. There's a
lot of tree hugging and so many trees to choose from,
and they are all invited there. They've won this place
on this sort of competition by a very famous, kind

(36:56):
of huge TikTok social media star influencer, spiritual and wellness
influencer called Hannah. And when our five strangers arrive at
the retreat, they are a little bit baffled to find
that there's no sign of Hannah anywhere. But instead they're
left a kind of a series of clues or instructions

(37:18):
to follow in her absence, and those clues lead them
away from the safety of the luxurious retreat and further
into the jungle where there are all kinds of discoveries
waiting for them.

Speaker 3 (37:32):
Absolutely and brilliant. And of course the setting plays a
huge part in this, and this is one thing we
did touch on in Harrogate. But the setting choice. You
could have gone anywhere with a retreat and going off
what you previously said about the already can't remember what
you mentioned them as, but the little huts in Scotland.

(37:53):
The location, Yeah, anywhere in the world. So why fast
riekan rainforest?

Speaker 5 (37:59):
Yeah, I just I've been so fascinated by the rainforest.
I've spent quite a bit of time in rainforest, not
specifically in Costa Rico that I wish I had, and
I did do a lot of a lot of really
deep research about the Costa Rican rainforest, specifically when I
was writing The Highway, but I have spent time in
other areas of rainforest and other parts of the world.

(38:20):
I was so taken by this feeling of claustrophobia in
these really vast expanses of space, and this incredible feeling
of like, how of like losing your bearings and not
being able to sort of navigate and turning one way
and everything kind of looks the same unless you're really,
you know, familiar, deeply sort of familiar or indigenous, you know,

(38:42):
to that type of land. So that was kind of
a sort of it had been in the back of
my mind. I also came across some sort of true
stories actually really tragic true stories of people who had
gone for high in the Costa Rican rainforest and never

(39:02):
been seen again, and who some of whom were found
kind of years years later. And these were people who
were really experienced hikers. These are people who knew the rainforest.
But it just really again sort of struck me that
kind of I wanted the rainforest to feel like its
own character. I suppose that's what I was really drawn to,

(39:25):
this idea of kind of nature as this sort of
a moral character that's neither good nor bad, it just is.
But that if we don't take you know, the rainforest
seriously and the nature that's within it seriously, that yeah,
that we're we're playing with fire kind of thing, like
we're doing something a bit dangerous. So there's this kind

(39:48):
of double threat that I wanted to create with both
from both the setting of the rainforest and then obviously
the characters who all have their kind of secrets and
hidden reasons for being there and various murderous motives going
on between them as well. Yeah, it was that kind
of combination, I think.

Speaker 4 (40:05):
Yeah, yeah, NICKI for me, obviously the Hideaway. You get
some books that come along and they feel like almost
like they perfectly capture the time and space in which
they were written. And I feel like this is it
almost has like a commentary about our society and where

(40:27):
we're currently at in twenty twenty five. Like running through it,
I could see, you know, maybe fifty years time students
studying this book and picking it apart, and you know,
is that what they were like in twenty twenty five.
So I think my question is, like, how much of
that was like a conscious crafting from you and how

(40:47):
much was it like that just happened naturally as you're
going through the story.

Speaker 5 (40:53):
Yeah, gosh, wow, I love that idea. By the way,
students studying my book, that's not something that I've ever imagined. Well,
I think it was at least partly conscious, but I
was also really mindful of not wanting it to feel
like I mean, for me as a reader, I don't

(41:13):
really like reading books where it feels like I'm being
like a message or something is being kind of really
forced at me, you know, like I'm there because I
want to read, and I want to be entertained, and
I want to be transported and intrigued and all of
those kind of things. So I was kind of aware
that I wanted to try and say something like specifically
about you know what wellness influence and you know, online

(41:37):
influence and the kinds of vulnerability that different people have
that might mean they're drawn towards those influences. So I
was aware that I wanted to say something about that,
but I wanted to try and do it in a
way that still felt like this is a good I
wanted it to That's what I was trying to do.
I've got there. In the end. I wanted it to
be possible to read it on different levels, so that

(41:59):
if you wanted to read it just as a bit
of fun, beach gripping page turner and not think any
more deeply about it and not feel that there are
any themes in it, but that's absolutely fine and it
can work as that. But I also love the idea
of it being able to work on that level as well,
where people might see that bit of commentary or that
bit of kind of ah, that's an interesting point about

(42:20):
you know, wellness culture and who we choose to follow
and that kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (42:24):
Yeah, then how do you craft that in Because I'm
reading a book at the minute called X Ray Reading.
It's a great book for anyone who's into reading, but
it gives you so many insights on how authors do
exactly that in terms of build layers of meaning within
their rit So can you talk us through that in
terms of like what you may have done to just

(42:46):
tweak things and change little bits.

Speaker 5 (42:49):
Yeah, absolutely so. I think a lot of it to
me comes through character. So getting my characters to express
in their voices, you know, it through their lenses. And
I've done all I've done so much therapy on my characters, right,
so I've like analyzed them and their childhoods and everything

(43:11):
else of thinking through the lenses of their experiences, how
would they feel about this theme, how would they feel
about wellness culture and toxic influence, and then tried to
sort of drip feed it through their words, if that
makes sense. And so then there's kind of it's a
bit nuanced then because they won't all feel the same
way about it, but overall we get a sense of
perhaps what that theme is through their words. I also

(43:35):
tried to play a bit with kind of motifs and
sort of symbolic things. So, for example, I wanted it
to feel like we've got luxury on the surface, so
things look shiny on the surface, just like an online
a beautiful online influencer, right, perfect and beautiful on the surface,
and then things are kind of cracking underneath. So in
the rainforest, you know, beautiful on the surface, danger lurking underneath.

(43:58):
You know, beautiful retrieve, darkness lurking within, things like that.
I try not to give too much away about the book,
but yeah, that kind of motif and symbolism. Tried to
replicate that through the book as well. I think those
are the two main things that I did, as I've
talked a bit about setting, and I think how that
weaved into it too, but that's definitely another one. But
those would be the things that I would try to

(44:20):
use to do that, and I think it's so clever
when authors do that do that well. I hope to
emulated some of it because I think it's brilliant when
that works. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (44:30):
So again, being a writer that's got ADHD and having
multiple characters, I should imagine that's quite problematic when you're
coming up with new characters that you want to shove
in and go, oh, this would be another really good one,
like did that happen? I told during the process, and
did your mind sort of run away with the story,
and did you find it maybe quite difficult to contain

(44:51):
all of those ideas that you have.

Speaker 5 (44:53):
Oh I love that you asked me there. It's the
first time anyone's asked me about what it's like writing
and having ad So I think that for me, having
ADHD is both an absolute blessed, like the biggest gift
that I could have for writing novels and at the
same time the worst possible thing that you could have

(45:14):
to deal with to be writing novels. So the shiny
object syndrome is a thing.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Right.

Speaker 5 (45:20):
So it's constantly like, oh, oh, new idea, new idea,
new character, new setting, new place, or maybe I should
just rip this all apart and stuff. Maybe it's better
if I do it like that. Maybe actually I should
set it in a totally different rainforest.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
Right.

Speaker 5 (45:33):
So it's like constantly these ideas. But sometimes those ideas
are really good. Often they're not, Sometimes they are. So
it's about being able to kind of take those moments
to slow down and sift through what's actually really What
if I hit on here that might be good, and
what do I just need to let go of. I
do think that I mean, I would really credit my

(45:55):
ADHD with the speed and the efficiency with which I've
been able to work, because I've now written three full
novels in the last two years around having a full
time job and tuniuar divergent children. I would credit and
people are often like, I don't how is that possible.

(46:15):
I think it's possible because of my ADHD. I think
my ADHD gives me this extra drive and sort of
hyper focus to get things done, like to get the
words down. And at the same time, it also means
that quite often, you know, my first drafts are totally chaotic,
and I can't do that thing of writing chronologically that

(46:36):
people talk about like that doesn't work for me. I
just have to go with what I'm interested in on
that day. So if I've suddenly got an urge to
write a scene you know that happens in I don't know,
three quarters of the way through, then that's kind of
what I have to go with. Hope some of that may.

Speaker 3 (46:54):
Yeah, No, it's brilliant. It's a great tip as well,
because that's when people are struggling maybe with motivation. That's
a great tip to do where the motivation strikes or
the inspiration strikes, go with it. But also just when
I say, amazingly, well done to you for having all
of those things to juggle and still getting through three
novels in two years. It's incredible, so well done. But
also thank you. Yeah, it's it's it must be a

(47:17):
real challenge, and like what you mentioned is real key.
There is the what if question? What if I can?
You know? What if this works? What if that works?
And it's constantly asking that. It's a real big tip
because what if I can finish this book? What if
I can take the advice from this or learn from this.
It's if you're asking what if you are going to

(47:39):
put yourself in that position of creating and perhaps what
if that agent accepts me you're going to take that step,
So that what if question is really crucial.

Speaker 5 (47:48):
I love that. I love that and I think that's
so true. Keep asking what if? Yeah, brilliant, brilliant tip.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (47:55):
Just before we move on to the community questions, I'm
going to again I'm going to ask you too bold question.
The first is do you have any more tips for
anyone with ADHD that is struggling maybe with their writing
or their consistency. And then I'll ask myself.

Speaker 5 (48:11):
Yeah, I think I did sort of touch on this.
I think my biggest tip is go go with the
strengths that your ADHD gives you. Right, So for me,
that is the ability to have amazing ideas, like you know,
sparking off ideas constantly, So allow yourself to have those ideas.

(48:32):
I also think it's really important to go with whatever
that thing is that motivates you. So anyone that has
ADHD will know that being feeling like we're kind of
being forced to do something, you know that I'm not
interested in. Its actually painful. It's actually painful. It's not
just like if you're know a typically I think you
can kind of go, well, I don't want to do

(48:54):
this thing, but I'm going to do it anyway. You know.
With ADHD, it's like I don't want to do this thing,
and now my brain is not going to allow me
to do it. So I think let's not fight against that,
you know, I just don't fight against that. And if
on a certain day, I'm like I really don't want
to do this today, I really don't want to edit today,
I really don't want to go back into this manuscript.

(49:16):
I really don't want to write another thousand words. Okay, well,
what do I feel motivated to do instead and go
with that? You know, maybe it's to go in and
like polish one random page, just really make the words
shine instead. Or maybe it's to brainstorm some ideas for
something else. Maybe it's to think about my characters. Just
literally sit and think about my characters for half an hour,

(49:36):
you know, whatever it is, like follow that, follow that interest. Yeah,
that's the biggest tip I've got.

Speaker 4 (49:42):
To Yeah, that's great. So when we interviewed you, Harrigant,
I said, this feels like it could be the birth
of a serial coverers. I'm not going to go into
I'm just wondering, have you ruminated on that? Have you
maybe thought a little bit more about it? Because because
I can see this right up there with the like

(50:02):
the Dexter's, the Joe Goldbergs. You know, yeah, I suppose that.

Speaker 5 (50:08):
I love that. I just I am all over that,
Like I I would love to do that. I can't
tell you how much I would love to do that.
The I mean, it's wonderful being under contract, But one
of the less maybe wonderful things about it, is that
I have less I suppose choice really I have less

(50:29):
freedom to say or at this stage of my career anyway,
I think you know, over time I will have more
sort of saying that, But at this point in my career,
I'm very much kind of going with what you know,
my publisher suggested for the next thing, And unfortunately that
is not a continuation of the Murderer in the Hideaway.
But it's something that I often think about by myself,

(50:54):
Like I often think about where would they be now,
Like what would they I wonder who they're taking down next.
I wonder what their next plans were, And I would
love to say, like never say never in the future.
I'd love to see if there's somewhere else that I
can take that that particular character just just.

Speaker 4 (51:10):
On that villain's watching and they go, that's a that's
the thing. That's a great idea. That's three four and
five right there.

Speaker 3 (51:19):
Just on just on that. If if if that character
had a social media bio, what would that say?

Speaker 4 (51:27):
That's a hard question without giving it.

Speaker 5 (51:30):
Right, Oh yeah, involved Okay, it might be something similar
to oh, that's going to give it away, Oh, Chris,
that is so hard without giving away. Can I think
about it? I know, But Can I think about it?
Can I think about it and send it to you after? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (51:51):
Because that's please do It just popped in my head,
so I ask it. Okay. So we're going to go
on to community questions. If you're watching this, please do
sending some questions. We've got staple questions to ask and
we'll ask them straight after this video. So community question time, Nikki,

(52:23):
if you could take a character from any other world
of fiction, whether that be a TV show, a movie,
or a book, and maybe you can either put them
in your novel or take them out for the day.
Which character would you choose them?

Speaker 4 (52:35):
Why?

Speaker 5 (52:37):
Oh? Great question? So I what was the name of
that amazing BBC murder mystery where it was David Mitchell
played the detective? Do you know the one I'm talking about?

(52:59):
It was musical? Do you know the one I'm talking about?
What was his name? Am I allowed to look that?
Am I allowed to look that? Okay? Amazing love Big
Ludwig lud Big right Ludwig from So David Mitchell plays
this fantastic detective. He's incredibly socially awkward. I think he's

(53:21):
coded as autistic. He's just brilliant. I would have him
straight in my next book that that's number one choice.

Speaker 3 (53:31):
Nice. What about that character do you do you love specifically?

Speaker 5 (53:38):
What about him specifically? I think I love anyone who
doesn't fit the typical mold of I think I resonate
with anybody who struggles with social it's probably a no,

(54:00):
you're a diversit thing, really struggles with what's sort of
socially the right thing to do and always feels a
bit awkward and always a little bit and not really sure,
but really has their thing that they really really love
and that they're brilliant at. I just love that.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
Have you seen Slow Horses?

Speaker 5 (54:16):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (54:17):
Yes, So a character in my mind talking about that
kind of style is Gary Oldman's character.

Speaker 5 (54:24):
Gary Oldman. Yeah, that is a perfect example, and again
just brilliant, just brilliant. And I love how with these
characters that it's quite gray because in some ways they're
kind of they're different. They're they're not like super lovable

(54:44):
and fluffy, are they They're also like there's things about
them that you're that are a bit off putting. But yeah,
but at the same time, I don't know, that's some
how just makes me love them more.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
Yeah, Gary, they are completely off putting, but you do
still root for them and you enjoy them as a character.

Speaker 4 (55:00):
So yeah, right, I'm just gonna ask one of the
questions that have come in, So, are there any ways
that you would not kill characters?

Speaker 5 (55:14):
Anyways that I would not kill a character? Well, I wouldn't. Yeah, yes,
Actually this is getting a bit dark for a second.
I wouldn't. I wouldn't kill somebody through that was really

(55:36):
struggling with their mental health through their own choice. So
I wouldn't. I wouldn't have a character die by suicide.
That feels like quite a clear line to me. Actually,
I also wouldn't want This is not exactly the question
that is asked, but like, I couldn't do anything involving animals,

(55:58):
animals being hurt, animals being killed. I don't know what
it is, but I can watch people being killed on
a program all day. Anything to do with an animal
and I'm out straight away, I'm out. So anything to
do with yeah, I think self harm or suicide would
be a no for me. And anything to do with animals.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Chris, what was that the series that Sarah Pimber She
made a book and then it was made into a
series that was really good, but they took out there
was a cat killing in it behind her eyes. Yes, yes,
when we spoke to her, she said that the cat
killing was in there and they wouldn't put it in
the in the series, I'm sure there was a high

(56:39):
heel still let her involve somewhere.

Speaker 5 (56:41):
I think that's right. It's just too much, isn't it.
For a lot of people, it's just too much. We
can watch people dying.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
We watched like terrible scenes on TV all the time
with humans. Yeah, fine, don't touch a cat.

Speaker 4 (57:00):
So we do have some staple questions. But I'm gonna
ask you a question. Obviously, with a debut, it's a
little bit different because people haven't read your work before,
and obviously they've got nothing to go off because there's
nothing there. So I suppose my question is, who do
you think would enjoy your debut?

Speaker 5 (57:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (57:19):
I think.

Speaker 5 (57:22):
I think I would. I would maybe go with readers
who enjoy authors like I'd probably maybe compare myself if
this has sort of high hopes. Really, but somebody like
Lucy Clark, somebody like Claire Douglas, somebody like Claire McIntosh.
These are some of my all time favorite thriller authors.

(57:43):
Who I very much tried to emulate. I think particularly
Lucy Clark, because I think my books and my next
book that I'm working at the moment have got that
similar vibe of point of view character like various point
of view characters, unreliable narrator, luxurious son soaked destination in
there as well. So I think that would be what

(58:06):
I would suggest. If you enjoyed those kind of authors,
you might well enjoy The Hideaway and my next book.

Speaker 4 (58:11):
Nice and with you mentioned in the next book, I'm
just going to probe you a little bit. How much
can you tell us right now?

Speaker 5 (58:19):
Yeah? So what we're actually really close to being able
to kind of reveal the cover and everything like that.
So I think I can tell you the title and
I can tell you a little bit about what it's about,
because that's actually already up on Amazon. So it's it's
another destination type thriller. We've got another kind of claustrophobic setting,

(58:41):
but in a vast expanse of space. It's this time
a souperi yocht in French Polynesia, sailing around the Society Islands.
It's called below the Deck, so quite close to below Deck,
but with other in the end, and the book kind
of really explores this time. It's not a group of
strangers I really want to to explore this time, a
group who already know each other. So this is a

(59:02):
group of work colleagues and their partners, all hiding secrets,
all keeping things buried in under wraps. And then there's
all kinds of things that go down as soon as
they set sail into the South Pacific and with the
crew as well, the crew as well as the guests,
and yeah, the cover is going to be revealed in
the next I think week or two, and it's fat.
They've done such a great job. I love it.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
That's awesome. I think you're just with these destination thrillers,
waiting for the time they say, yeah, we'll send you
off to this location for the pr there.

Speaker 5 (59:36):
It really really is. And I am still holding out hope,
like one day that'll send me there. Until then, I'm
doing a lot of research.

Speaker 3 (59:47):
Keep putting it in those nice places. I'm sure you'll
get exactly.

Speaker 5 (59:51):
You'll get that.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
Okay. If you could take the ending of anything again, TV,
movie or novel and change the ending, which is quite
a bit thing. What ending would you change in why.

Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
Hmm.

Speaker 5 (01:00:06):
Oh, I can't believe I'm going to say this. I
wonder how many people have said this, but it's the
first thing that popped into my head. Game of Thrones,
Game of Thrones TV series. Have people said this before?

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
It's probably our most common answer.

Speaker 5 (01:00:20):
Oh, I want it to be original, But.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
How frustrating it was for everybody?

Speaker 5 (01:00:26):
Mm hmmm, such a shame. Such it just the build up,
I mean, it was just so fantastic. Like, I loved
the series. I loved I think I've read the maybe
the first three or four books, not all of them,
but I just loved how the series was done and
the end. Yeah, it did just feel like such a disappointment,
and it made no sense. Bran Oh gosh, I hope

(01:00:48):
that's not a spoiler, but anyway, brand made no sense
to me. That's true. There was a lot of time ago. Yeah, yeah,
but that's my answer. I know that's not very original,
but that's my honest answer. It's going to be game throws.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
It's your honest answer. And I'm now intrigued to know
when that actually came out, because it probably was a
long time ago.

Speaker 5 (01:01:11):
I want to say, like twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
Two, Christy if you came on the stable questions and
I will find out, yeah, find.

Speaker 4 (01:01:18):
Out they're slightly over so I'm conscious of that. But
I'll just ask you this question and then you can
tell us where everyone can find hide Away and where
they can find all the good stuff about you, where
to find you on social media and everything. But the
question that we have is again a little bit morbid.
But you're on your deathbed, you're looking back at your
writing career. What would you be happy with? What is

(01:01:40):
success to you?

Speaker 5 (01:01:43):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
Wow?

Speaker 5 (01:01:47):
You know, sometimes I think I've already got to it
because for me, obviously the dream is to be published
that you know, by a child publisher, haveing my book
in Waterstones, and I still can't get ahead around that
walking into Wardstones and seeing my book. So a lot
of it is there already. But no, I think I
think something that I would feel so so so proud
of and happy if I look back on was to

(01:02:07):
feel that I had also at some point written a
book that was absolutely the book of my heart, which
might not be so commercial, it might not be such
a clear, you know, genre category, It might be an
awful lot like a hell of a lot weirder and
make a lot less sense to a reader. But I

(01:02:29):
think for me to feel that I had put that
on paper and completed that just for me, like, no
matter what happened to it, whether it got published or not,
that would be that then a diet a happy, happy lady.

Speaker 4 (01:02:40):
See that's an original answer that we've never had.

Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
Really, Yeah, it's probably one of the best answers for that.
I think that's that's a fantastic explanation of just being
being able to write the weird, brilliant, amazing. So with
that in mind, guys, please do go along and follow
Nikki l on socials, which she's going to explain because
we didn't ask that what. They can stalk you on

(01:03:05):
social media.

Speaker 5 (01:03:07):
Yes, please come and stalk me. It's my most active place.
In fact, the only place I'm really super active is
on Instagram, So you can come and find me there,
Nikki Allen author. And in terms of the book, you
can find it in all all your all your bookshops,
so yeah, Waterstones, Amazon, and you'll just search for the
Hideaway Nikki Allen, you'll find it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Absolutely, We'll be looking out for that cover and of
course we will link the put those links in the
description so you can find Nikki Allen on socials, on
the website and Amazon as well. So all we can
say is, thank you so much Nikki for joining us
and it's been a pleasure for having me and of
course here as well, and we look forward to the
next installments from Nicky Allen.

Speaker 5 (01:03:49):
Thank you so much, Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 4 (01:03:52):
Anything from you, Chris, Oh, I've let you wave and
then I done. That's what I'll say, Yes, hook a tree.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
Teod te absolutely thank you everybody and have a great weekend.
Please stay safe, We'll see you very soon.

Speaker 6 (01:04:08):
Bye bye.

Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
M

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