November 12, 2025 • 55 mins
The challenge every successful debut author faces is the pressure to repeat themselves. When we recently sat down with acclaimed Irish author Chloe Michelle Howarth (Author of the Nero-shortlisted Sunburn), we learned why she made the bold choice to defy expectations and pivot her career completely.Her new book, Heap Earth Upon It, is a striking departure: a dark, 1960s-set Gothic novel miles away from the contemporary, coming-of-age tone of her debut. This article breaks down the three most valuable insights Chloe shared on creative fulfillment, editing mastery, and writing with purpose.1. Creative Fulfillment Demands a Genre Pivot.Chloe’s first novel, Sunburn, was a critical and commercial success, leading to an obvious question: why not write Sunburn 2?Chloe’s answer was pure creative drive. She admitted that she chose the complete opposite direction—a dark, gritty 1960s Gothic—simply because she felt she had to prove to herself that she could do something else.The setting of the new novel was key: a small, quiet, rural village in the depths of January. As Chloe explained, that atmospheric choice naturally lends itself to the Gothic, demanding new language, new emotions, and a different type of bite than her previous work. For writers struggling with a second project, her advice is clear: do what excites you, not what you think the audience (or publisher) expects.2. The Hardest, Most Necessary Editing Lesson.Whether you are writing a sweet romance or a haunting Gothic novel, this single piece of editorial advice, which Chloe received from her agent, is a game-changer: “Less can be more.”Chloe confessed that she loves “over-the-top, very dramatic, detailed prose,” often describing a statement in five different ways. She was challenged to find where it was necessary to be indulgent and where it was simply not serving the story.The takeaway here for any author is to learn how to refine the work. You must be willing to let go of the dramatic flair you love if a concise sentence serves the story better. Her willingness to be open to this professional critique was ultimately what changed her initial manuscript into the published novel.3. Writing a Legacy: Rural Queerness.Perhaps the most impactful takeaway from our conversation was Chloe’s dedication to defining her own writing legacy.When asked what she hopes her work will be remembered for, she emphasized her focus on rural Irish queerness. As she notes, queer experiences are far more often depicted in urban spaces, making her depiction of a nuanced, isolated existence in a smaller community a vital counter-narrative.Her advice for writers aiming to be more inclusive? Write from a genuine place. Don’t feel the need to crowbar diverse characters in to “tick a box.” Instead, write the character as a full person first, and then let their specific experience be a secondary, natural layer, rather than the defining element.You can dive into the full conversation with Chloe Michelle Howarth, including her thoughts on balancing multiple narrative viewpoints, her unorganised “pantser” process, and her essential book recommendation, by watching the full video below:WATCH THE FULL INTERVIEW OR LISTEN ON YOUR FAVOURITE PODCAST PLATFORM: Chloe Michelle Howarth on Writing Irish Gothic Fiction & Her Queer Rural Legacy (HEAP EARTH UPON IT & SUNBURN)Join our brand new community on our Stanstore! After conducting 360 plus interviews, we have compiled digital products to help your writing. Plus, community members get access to our live writing sprints where we write with you, keep you accountable, and give you free access to our 1-on-1 video coaching. There are forum like tabs in our community group where you can post work and receive advice, plus, much more. Join here: https://stan.store/TheWCCSSupport Our Non-Profit CIC.As many of you know, The Writing Community Chat Show is now officially a non-profit Community Interest Company (CIC). Our mission is to support authors and creatives through interviews, workshops, competitions, and community projects.Running the show takes time, effort, and resources — from live streaming and editing, to event hosting and outreach. If you enjoy what we do and want to help us continue providing a platform for authors, please consider donating directly to our PayPal. Every contribution goes right back into growing the show and supporting the writing community.Donate here: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/TheWCCSEven the price of a coffee makes a difference in helping us keep the lights on, the mics live, and the conversations flowing.Featured on these blog posts as one of the best writing podcasts:Number 7 in the top 11 writing podcasts of 2025 by Million Podcasts. com https://millionpod
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, and welcome to this week's Writing Community chat show.
It's good to be back. We've got another fantastic guest
lined up for you today. Chris is perfectly timed as always. Yeah,
it's been it's been two weeks since Las show. Halloween
landed right on our Friday, and we do normally do
a Halloween show, but we didn't quite get there this
this time, mainly because I've been very un well last week,
(00:21):
which has been terrible. But you know, it's good to
be back on the show and feeling more like myself. Hello,
Chris Huy, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, very good, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
How are you? Yeah, feeling more alive, which is which
is lovely. And hello to you another Chris. There you go.
Three Chris is all in one space. Yeah. How we've been.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah, it's been good. Not so much writing but reading.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Got stuck into a few conspiracy theories about three I Atlas.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Okay, yeah, that was interesting.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Is that the space thing? Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, it was a comment that everyone jumped on. It
was just a comment. Brian Cotts came out said it
was a comment. Obviously, when anything comes close to us,
people like to speculate.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
And when you say they jumped on it, I don't
think you mean literally.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
No, definitely not literally.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Well, people are saying that, oh, it's sending code out
and it's sending messages, and these are the messages that
it's sent out, and it's like we come in peace
and all this sort of stuff, and it was just.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
A load of Yeah. I don't think they really were,
but there you go. It is interesting, but they the
conspiracy is not really my thing. I don't want to
get into them because I don't want to have that
sort of obsession about something that I could do without,
if you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, but this week was really good for guests. We've
booked in loads, which is great.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Sometimes we have a little admin purge and just get
all the guests that have emailed in and inquired and
all that type of stuff, and some obviously that haven't
and we approached them. So yeah, it's been really productive
on that front. In terms of future shows, the guests
we've got on are going to be brilliant, So yeah,
(02:10):
more for people stage.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So a bit of news as well on the social
side of things. We started our own stand store two
weeks ago. We had Anya join it as a community member,
so thank you so much for that. And we did
our first writing sprint, which was quite productive. I feel,
as someone who lost his mojo recently, that was quite good.
I put a TikTok video out there asking the community
(02:34):
for the indie authors to remind them how value they
are and supported, and for them to send their book
requests their book links in to the show, and we
had a big reaction to that, nearly ten thousand views
at the moment, lots of likes and comments and shares
on there, and we've got tons and tons of book
links in there and people talking about their indie books.
(02:55):
So we're going to go through those. We're going to
find one that really jumps out us, and we're going
to feel that we feel is valued, and we're going
to read that book, review it for them, and get
them on the show. So if you haven't seen that
and you want to be part of that process and
you want to put your book links on there, please
go to our TikTok account and find that video. It's
the one with more views than the rest of them,
(03:16):
so you'll find it there.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, sounds good.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
We love a good book scroll and a little nose
everyone's books, so yeah, send them in.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, definitely, and hello to you all in the chat.
It's good to have you back engaging in there and
saying hello to each other. It's all about the community
here and we love that, so please do get chating
to each other. And he says, I need to get
on TikTok. You certainly do book talk and TikTok author
talk all of that good stuff. It really does feel active.
And what we were talking about with our guests just before
(03:46):
we started this was how the demise of X shall
we say, the engagement and why the show started through
the community on there, and we're looking for that community
elsewhere and we feel there is a lot of people,
like minded people all doing the same sort of thing
over on TikTok, so it is certainly worth doing it,
if nothing else for posting pictures, which you can do
(04:09):
now and engaging with authors that way if you're not
comfortable going live, so give that a go and find
the community there as well. And of course substat Chris,
are you ready for tonight's guest?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Indeed, I'm looking forward.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
And if you are in the chat, please do leave
some comments of encouragement for Tonight's guest and of course
questions throughout and if you haven't done so, hit that
like button. So our guest Tonight is one of the
most exciting new voices in Irish literary fiction. Her acclaimed
twenty twenty three debut Sunburn, earned her shortlist nominations for
the prestigious honors like the Nero Book Award for Debut
(04:44):
Fiction and the Polari First Book Prize. She has recently
followed that up with the success of a striking tonal Shift,
a much darker nineteen sixty set Gothic novel Heap. The
heap Earth upon it, which is above Chris's head looks lovely,
so please help me giving a nice, big, warm write
and commute. Church're welcome to the incredibly talented Chloe Michelle Howorth. Hello, Hi,
(05:08):
how are you doing having me?
Speaker 4 (05:09):
I'm good?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Thank you?
Speaker 4 (05:10):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah? We're good. We like I said, we've we've missed
the show. We've been two weeks, which is unusual for us,
so we're very good to be glad to be back
and it's great to have you back. To kick that
back off.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Oh super yeah, I bet two weeks feels like a
long time to not be doing it if you're so
used to doing it every week.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, we really do. I mean we've done a lot
of interviews and it's not often we actually have a break,
so that was a bit of a weird one. But
then to come back with someone like yourself tonight and
get a brand new story about someone about the sort
of writing path and all that good stuff. We're looking
forward to it. So thank you for joining us.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Super Yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Let's get started absolutely. First of all, as always, where
are you joining us from?
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Well, I don't I have an Irish accent. Obviously I
am Irish, but I live in bright and now I've
been here for nearly five years. I didn't plan on
spending so much time here, but there you go. That's
the way it goes. So I'm in my flat in
Brighton and it's very cozy this evening about candles are
lighting and it's very nice vibes on here tonight.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah. Can you see the sea from where you are?
Speaker 4 (06:19):
I can see it if I go out my door,
but I don't have, like cea view from in the
in the flat.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Okay, it's excellent, and we've had a few people from
Brighton I can't remember who they are. The one connection
with Brighton this show's got is we actually had their
own beer made which was incredible years ago and they
were sent it to us loads of the beers. So
there's our writing and community churchhop that's so huge pale
(06:45):
ale and it was made by Bison Brewery, which is there.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Oh that's incredible?
Speaker 5 (06:51):
Is it nice?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah? That was That was brilliant. So Brighton has been
kind to us and bringing you to us as well.
So what we always ask is what is the author
connection maybe even readership connection like where you live? So
in terms of Brighton, do you link it with other authors?
Do people who read your books bump into you? Does
that kind of happen?
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Yeah, it's it's funny like only in probably the last
six months has that started happening. There's a local author
called Andrew Fleuett who has a non fiction book called
Do You Believe in Life After Loss? And it's all
about it's a series of interviews with different queer people
(07:33):
and they discuss different forms of loss that they've had
in their lives. So there's grief or you know, maybe
the loss of a job. Somebody overcame a battle with
addiction and that was a form of grief. And he
lives in Brighton and we've become like little writing bodies,
which is really really nice because I've never really written
with anyone before. It's a very solitary thing for me.
(07:55):
So whenever he texts and he's like, bring your laptop,
let's get a coffee, I'm like, oh, relif it's really nice.
And then as far as people coming up to me, yeah,
that happens now and then, and it's always when I'm
looking my worst, when I've been out the night before
and I'm like crawling to the shop to get a
(08:16):
Lucas eis Ford. Someone seems to go, well, you wrote sunburn,
and I'm like, oh Jesus. So it's lovely when it happens,
but I just wish I had makeup on the next time.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
It happened, do you know what. That's so nice and
I don't think many people have that way. Someone can
ring you and say come on, pop down, we go
in somewhere for a writing effort, and I think that's lovely.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
It's really nice.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
You know. We do recognize that it's mainly you sat
behind your desk. It's not online interaction. A lot of
the time, so that's why we try and create the
things like the writing sprints that we've now started. And
I think having that sort of personal relationship with someone
in your local area could be a really beneficial thing.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I think also like it's just
good to talk to someone who is pursue doing the
same thing as you and they kind of understand the
frustrations and the insecurities and all of those you know,
not so nice emotions that you don't typically talk about
with this job. So yeah, it's good to have people
(09:14):
who know where you're coming from for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, and the other thing you touched on there was
grief based on that conversation, and what you highlighted, well,
a lot of people don't realize is as simple moving
away as a child or doing many different things that
you don't think could influence grief really does.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, like the angles that Andrew looks
at it in the book were things I'd never considered before,
but it's so so well done and it made me
think of like even like leaving Ireland and moving to England,
Like there was you know, when I kind of realized
not going home I'm actually here now for the foreseeable, Like,
there's certainly a bit of grief in that. You know,
(09:56):
it's strange when you realize how many different parts of
your life it can talk.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, well, that's that's where life experience becomes a beneficial
asset to your writing because understanding that element that grief
can come from a lot of places and you're going
through it in that removal of your kind, of your
culture and your family, You've then got that experience to
put into your characters, which I think makes it better
for the reader.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I think, like, yeah, it's true,
the more life you live, the better you're writing. Is
Like I think, if I hadn't left where I was
living before, maybe I wouldn't have written a second book,
because maybe I would, like Sunburn, my first book is
very much based in the type of village where I
(10:41):
was living, and so maybe nothing else would have ever come.
Maybe I would have been like, well, I've written about
this now and that's that's my novel. That's the end
of it.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So in a way, well, let me play a little video,
which is part one of the road to writing, and
then we get stuck into that kind of journey in
a brief kind of way, and then we can look
at uh, you know, Sunburn, which is a novel that's
done extremely well for you, and then how you've got
to where you are now. So I'll play this video
and we'll get straight into it. So Chloe, rewind us,
(11:26):
rewind the tape. I'm just looking at a tape on
the corner there. That's how old I am. Rewind the
tape right back to the start for us. And when
did writing suddenly become something you thought about becoming more
in your life?
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Well, I had always written as a teenager, even as
going back as far as my childhood, I've always kept
diaries and so it was very like habitual for me
to write about what I was feeling. I think if
I hadn't done that from such a young age, perhaps
I wouldn't have come to writing, because as a teenager,
(12:02):
those diaries kind of started to develop and became less
and less about me and more and more just about
the words and the structures of the sentences and you
know what words I found interesting, And eventually that kind
of started to become fiction, which I then made longer
and longer. So it's something I've always done, but it
(12:23):
wasn't really until lockdown. Like that's when I wrote Sunburn.
Like I said, I'd written before that, but I just
hadn't written anything that was kind of worth doing anything
with or worth pursuing, just because you know, it wasn't
quite there yet. And so I was lucky really with
all of the time, the free time that I hadn't
(12:44):
lockdown because I wasn't like frontline working or anything. I
was just at home. I was working from home, but
like working from home, I wasn't really I used to
work for customer service. I answered the calls on the
little health's headset, so I did not a lot of writing,
you know, while I was doing that job. So yeah,
that was when I was like, God, I don't even
(13:05):
know what age I was because everyone says this, don't they,
But like the timeline of COVID has actually just completely
lost on me. I was in my kind of early
mid twenties roughly. I don't know really what age I
was when I wrote Sunburn.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I think COVID is time is lost since COVID interesting
then what you talked about writing stuff that you didn't
really think had had the wow factor? I suppose, so
what made Sunburn be the difference then?
Speaker 4 (13:36):
I think the difference between what I had previously written
on Sunburn was that I was just I was less
embarrassed of it than I was of all that, Like
I would never have shared those early things with other people,
whereas Thunburne, I thought like, obviously I was still embarrassed
because I was like, here's this thing I've been working
(13:57):
on and didn't tell anyone about it, and now I've
written the full length novel. There was something embarrassing in that,
But I wasn't so embarrassed of the writing in it.
I kind of just had a feeling like I was like,
it's not bad, so yeah, But really it wasn't like
something I didn't say, Oh, this is brilliant, I'm going
to pursue this. Actually it was my mom and my
(14:17):
friend who were like, you just write all the time,
and it'd be a shame not to do anything with it.
So then they suggested that I try and get it published.
So really it came from them. If they hadn't done that,
I probably would never have done anything with it. I
would have just kept it as a Google doc forever.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Olie, I'm really interested about the whole diary process and
writing diary entries and.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Things like that.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
And I suppose there's a certain amount of freedom with
the first novel because there's no external pressure.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
So can you talk us through that process.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
In terms of like how you sort of transitioned from
diary writing and the first novel and what was that
like and then taking on a second novel where there
is a little bit more external pressure.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Yeah. Well, in terms of the transition from diary writing
to fiction writing, I think really it's just that it
was it was realistically the same emotions that I was feeling,
but fictionalized. I was putting my feelings into situations and
characters and everything that were quite different from what I
was going through. But oftentimes what I write, the feelings
(15:30):
are real, it's just the situations aren't. And I think
that has stood to me because if there's a great
truth in the feeling of a piece, I think that
goes a long way. But I, like, God, something was
coming out. It did feel like people were reading my diary,
and even now with hey birth upon it, I am
still a bit like, no, there is something like nerve
(15:54):
wracking about it because it's just you and your own writing.
For like a year, then all of a sudden, anyone
who wants access to it can just have it. And yeah,
it does sometimes feel a little bit like people are
reading my diary, but I really just I always just
try to say to myself, like, well, no one will
ever read this, you know, And as long as it's
(16:15):
something that I'm just doing for myself to entertain myself
or to work through feelings or things like that, then
I find I have an awful lot of freedom. But
if I ever consider an audience, then I think, well,
I can't do this.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You know.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
Imagine writing in your diary and thinking was someone's going
to read this? It would be so sanitized you'd never
put anything real down. So with the novels, I just
have to really pretend that they'll never be read, and
that seems to help.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Did you have any idea writing that through lockdown? When
I guess you had spent a lot of time in
your own mind during that time, as a lot of
us did, that you would actually take that to a
point where it would get signed and get a lot
of recognition. Did you think that would happen?
Speaker 4 (16:57):
No, like, not at all, be honest, But it was
good timing. Because because it was lockdown, and like I was,
I had just graduated from UNI, so I was kind
of ready to go out into the world. And then
within probably three months, full lockdown, and I was living
at my parents' house and I was like, right, so
(17:19):
this is me now forever. So I kind of felt
like I had nothing to lose. I was at a
point where I was like, just try it, and whatever
happens happens, so it's good. I didn't really have any
hopes for it at all, But equally I was like,
there's no harm in trying and just see what happens.
Obviously I'm lucky it worked out really well, but yeah,
(17:39):
I didn't have any ambition of what it would end
up being, which I think is a good thing because
you know, it was such a gamble and I could
have very easily been disappointed.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
So Ross has said in the comments, I get that.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
So here's the thing I did, awkwardness, And what's it
like then when you got that manuscript and you hand
it over to other people and they accept it, and
then you, I'm assuming you get editorial notes and stuff
like that.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
How did you find that and sort of work.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Your way around those notes and the advice that you
were suddenly being given about your writing.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Well, I you know, my agent, my first agent was brilliant,
and she was a really good editor. And I remember
the first lot of notes I got back. You know,
there was an instant where I was like, oh, because
no one had ever read it before, let alone critiqued it.
So I was like, oh, god, this is a bit.
(18:38):
You know. I didn't get hurt for a second, but
then I thought, actually, this is a professional. She's does
this for a living and she's put her time into this.
So I just took on board everything that she said,
and I was like, I just want to learn from this,
and while I have access to her, because at that point,
I didn't have a publishing deal and I didn't know
(18:58):
how the whole publishing game worked, so I was like,
she could drop me in the morning if she wanted to.
It turns out that's not how it works, but I
didn't know. So I was like, I'm going to make
the best of this while I can took all her
edits on board, and yeah, it was an interesting experience
learning like where to say no, I don't agree with that,
I'm going to keep this as it is, and then
(19:19):
where to say, Okay, I'm going to follow your advice
on this one. But yeah, I let myself be very
very open to everything that she had to say, and
that was definitely beneficial because like the book that made
it to publication and the book that she initially read
are definitely not the same thing. She really helped me
get it to where it is. Now.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
What do you think was the biggest tip that you
took from that process working with people like that that
you could maybe pass on to people watching dad.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
I would say less can be more. She really taught
me how important it is to refine what you're doing.
Because I love like over the top, very dramatic, detailed prose,
and I love descriptions. That's what I enjoy reading, and
that's what I enjoy writing, and so I would be
(20:13):
quite happy to, you know, make a statement and then
describe it in five different ways, but there's no need
for that a lot of the time. And she taught
me that, you know, just how to refine the work
and where it's okay to be indulgent like that and
where it's not so necessary. So yeah, I would say
less is more.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, I definitely agree.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
And with that, then Obviously, the manuscripts here and it's done.
You've got to deal with the books out. People are opposite.
It's come to critical acclaim and really well, obviously the
reviews that's pouring in. How do you then prepare yourself
mentally to go again and write the next book.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Well, see, I think I'm lucky because, as I said,
I was doing it all the time anyway. I've always
always written. And so even if they had turned around
and said, look, we were happy with Sunburn, but we
don't want to do another book with you, I don't
see a world in which I would have said, well,
I'll never write again. I would have just written something anyway,
(21:15):
because it's like, it's my favorite thing to do. It's
my favorite creative pursuit, my favorite hobby. So I would
just definitely have done it again either way. The one
thing I did have to do is go back to
the idea that no one will read this, because I
was a bit concerned that I knew I didn't want
to write Sunburn again. I wanted to write something that
(21:38):
was fairly different, and I thought, oh god, well you know, finally,
now it's going well with the writing and stuff, and
I'm about to turn my back on the thing that's
doing well. That was a bit nerve wracking. But when
I told myself like, well, no one's going to read it,
so it doesn't matter. Just do it entertain yourself, then
it was very freeing, and it was very you know,
I really enjoyed it at that point, but I had
(21:59):
to let go of that audience.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
What were the publishers like in that moment, because some
publishers will say, oh, someone did really well, we want
another summer novel, but obviously you've not done that, You've
moved away from it in terms of writing something completely different,
and so what was that process like in terms of
like navigating that with the publisher and chatting to them
(22:24):
about the next book.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
Well, I was really lucky that people were very supportive
of it, and I felt the whole time that I
really had an awful lot of creative control. You know,
obviously I had full creative control when I wrote the thing,
but then presenting it to people who would be well
within their rights to say oh that totally it doesn't work,
(22:48):
or you need to shift all the chapters around or something,
I didn't get much pushback. People were just seemed to
be quite happy to let me go for it with
this second book. I don't know why they trusted me, because,
like I said, it is quite different to Sunburn. But
I was very lucky. But yeah, they just let me
go for it, and they were very enthusiastic and very supportive.
(23:12):
I think they just understood the vibe of it. They
got what I was going for quite early on, so
they were like, Okay, just do it and we'll see
how it goes.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I'm quite interested in knowing if you felt any different
writing Sunburn in Cork for example, and Heap Earth upon
It in Brighton. My brain is very it's still unwell
from the week, so I was struggling here.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Literally, I've only just got the cadence of it now
heap birth upon it. It took me ages to be
like keep Earth upon it. It's kind of a tone twister,
like in.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Terms of the atmospherics, like when you're in a different
situation and you've written different very different timelines and genre here,
So with did you have any influence from say, writing
in one place to the other. Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (24:02):
Yeah, yeah, it was definitely a different experience, like the
time and place in which I wrote Sunburn was the
perfect environment for that book, and I missed it. I
definitely missed it when I was writing the second book,
because it was just a joy. I mean, I was
(24:24):
surrounded like, oh, where I'm from is beautiful. It's so beautiful,
and because I write so much about the Irish country side,
like the inspiration was everywhere and I was. I think
it was only when I tried to write the second book,
not living there, I realized how spoiled I was the
first time around. But I think being away from that
(24:45):
helped with the you know, helped me to romanticize it
a lot more because this is quite a dark book,
but there are light moments and moments of hope and
you know, uplifting things, And I think part of that
comes from really romanticizing the atmosphere that it's written in.
But also I don't know if I would have gone
(25:06):
quite so gothic had I not been living in a city.
I think that's definitely helped to, you know, make it
a bit grittier and a bit you know, there's there's
a bit more like bite to it. Sunburn is very sweet,
where this is a bit more intense. And I think
living in like the middle of Town helped with that
for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I guess the big question then is why the massive switch?
Speaker 4 (25:32):
Well, why not? Like I think I've done that. I
know I've done sunburn. Now I've done that, and I
thought I won't be entertained if I do that again
immediately again, because like I said, I really am just
the main reason I do it is to just entertain myself,
fulfill myself creatively. So I was like, I've kind of
(25:54):
just done that for like two years, and I don't
want to do it again straight away. I might go
back to it one day, but I just wanted to
do the opposite and kind of I think first of all,
proved myself that I could do something else, and I
knew that new things would be opened up to me
if I faced in a different direction and I was
(26:15):
looking at different a different type of not a different world,
I say, but a different setting for instance. I knew
that it would kind of inspire new language and new
emotions and things like that. So yeah, I just said
I'd go for it.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
With someone.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Then. Obviously the idea has probably been festering for quite
a while in terms of you getting that book written
and out there, because that's always the case with people's
first book, But then with Earth upon It, how did
you know, oh, yeah, this is the second book that
I'm going to write and land on that because a
lot of writers obviously struggle with They go, oh, I
(26:53):
got this idea and this one and this one, but
how do you know that that's the one.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
With the juice that's worth squeezing.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Well, I'm not really sure if I can answer that
question properly because it was with Sunburn. I remember I
was coming home from a New Year's Eve party on
New Year's Day and I just had the idea on
the boss and I was like, oh, that's an idea.
I'll just write that. And I kind of started writing
(27:20):
it there and then and then just pursued it until
it was done. It took about nine months, so I
didn't have that thing of I know some people take
years and years to do their first novel, but I
think again, because it was literally became lockdown. So soon
after that, I was like, they're not holding me back. Now,
I'll just write the thing. So then with the heat
Birth upon It, it was very similar like once an
(27:43):
idea came, it was kind of just the second idea
that I had after sunburn with it, I didn't really
have another idea, and a similarly, I was like, right, okay,
I'll just write this book then, and then I just
I don't really give myself time to consider like is
this worth issuing? Could something better come along? Because if
something better comes along, well I'll deal with that at
(28:04):
the time. But I you know, I only had one
idea both times, so I just went with.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I love that. It's like there's a tip. There's a
tip for you if you hangover, get on the bus
and an idea might come to you. It might be
the best one that you've had.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Yeah, exactly. I think it's worth being impulsive like it can.
It's easy to mol over an idea for a really
long time and try and get it perfect in your
brain and it expands and expands and expands before you've
written anything, and that can't happen very easily. So I
think it's worth just as soon as you have an idea,
just start, and then it's keeping going. That's the hard part.
(28:41):
Starting is easy, but keeping going then as you have
to see it through.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
You know absolutely well, with that idea that we've just
heard a little bit about, we're going to play part
two the video for part two, which is what's the
story and when we come back, Chloe, if you can
give the audience your best pitch for this book and
we'll get stuck into it, so heap earth upon it.
(29:11):
Can you tell us what that is all about? Please?
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Yes? So heap earth upon It is set in rural
Ireland in nineteen sixty five, and it follows four orphaned siblings,
the Oliary siblings, one of whom is about eleven, and
the arrest are in their late twenties, so it's like
three adults and a child, and we meet them as
(29:35):
their moving town overnight to restart their lives in a
new village, and it's very suspicious circumstances. We're not quite
sure why they've left. We just know that they're running
from something, and we learn along with the locals of
this new village what's up with the oleriis why are
(29:57):
they like this? Their very intense family, and so we
kind of follow them on their journey trying to settle
into this new town. There's lots of Arafic obsession in it,
and there's lots of dealing with grief and repression. Yeah,
it's quite pasy. It's quite spooky, A mystery kind of
(30:19):
unfolds as you read it.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I'm really it's the swap genres what this really draw
me here? Do you think, like the darkness in terms
of the grittiness of the sixties and sixties and the
little towns with the families that are kind of dealing
with all these issues, the atmospheric style of that. Do
you think that's what you're drawn to naturally is why
(30:42):
you came to this?
Speaker 4 (30:43):
Do you think, Well, really, the initial thing was the season.
It's set in January, and I think the genre really
came from that time of year, because if you consider
like a very very small, quiet rural village in the
depths of January, it is quite spooky visually, like all
(31:06):
the you know, the trees, the bare trees, and the
gray skies and stone walls and ruins and one lonely
pub in the middle of nowhere like that is that
lends itself to the Gothic really really well. And so
I knew I wanted there to be I wanted this
book to be more pasty essentially than Sunburn, bit, more
(31:29):
of a page turner. So I knew there'd have to
be some secrets in it, and then that gothic part
of it really just came from the season that it
was set in. And then I think when those two
things married together that kind of informed the rest of
the piece.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
So with a novel that's got secrets in it, as
an author without giving anything away here, as an author,
how do you place those secrets in or do you
leave clues so the reader can possibly pick those up,
or do you just put them in there as a
complete shock factor?
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Well, I mean it was a difficult thing for me
to execute because I'm not very organized, and so I
didn't have a full plan going into it. I wish
I had. I think it's better to do a combination
of the two because if it's all clues clues clues,
(32:22):
where's the payoff? You know, you don't want people to
have to get to the very last page before they go, oh,
that's what it all meant. You kind of have to
give little bits of payoff throughout. But it's just about
deciding like, Okay, well what do I keep back and
how long do I keep it back? And yeah, the
revealing of the information, when do you to show your monsters?
(32:45):
It was challenging. I did enjoy it. But like I said,
I'm not very organized, so it wasn't the smoothest process.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
So Chloe, when you realize obviously and you're writing that
you write in a Gothic novel, does that have any
actor in terms of like, oh, this is what people
would expect from a Gothic novel, so I must be
including some of these elements or you know do you
just kind of go with it and then the gothic
comes out with the set in and the family and
(33:13):
things like that.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
It kind of just came out to be honest, like,
now that it's out, I'm using the word Gothic because
that's what like all the marketing people are using and
the like that's that's the word that's being used. I
think maybe Irish gothic is a better description of it.
Because I did literature me, I hesitate to call this
(33:36):
a Gothic novel because for me, the Gothic is like
ps and you know that sort of thing, like the
Carmela vibe, Like that's the Gothic to me. So yeah,
it's a weird one. A part of me doesn't want
(33:57):
to say that it's Gothic, but I think the Irish
Gothic is a is a good thing to call it.
So it didn't really click with me for a long
time that it was got. I knew it was eerie,
but I wouldn't have called it gothic for the majority
of the writing process. I think.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
In the book you've used Tom Jack, Annaron Betty four voices.
How did you or why did you decide to go
with the full voice sort of look into the story
or direction with it.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Yeah, what I was just about to say was I
became very interested in the notion of people experiencing things differently. So,
for example, the three of us are having this chat,
but I'm having a very different conversation to what you're
and what you're having and what the people in the
chat room are having. We're all experiencing it very differently,
(34:46):
although it's the exact same thing, And so I just
wanted to capture moments where the characters were all at
the same event or having the same meal, or feeling
the same feelings and just examine different reactions to it.
That was like something I was really interested in exploring,
(35:06):
and so initially I was writing The Four Siblings, that
kind of was the natural thing for me to do.
But then, you know, as I got further into the process,
I realized that an external voice would really benefit the story.
So that's where Betty comes in. Betty is one of
the people who lives in the village, and she's very
(35:28):
helpful because she's a bit more of an outsider along
with the reader. She you know, you're kind of positioned
with her, whereas when you're in with the family there's
a lot of unreliable narration going on. So that's how
I came to using Betty. But yeah, this is just
this weird obsession with them. They're not being one universal
truth for anything. I just wanted to dive into that.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah, I think that's amazing. It's not done nearly enough,
and I get exactly why you're saying that, and I
think it's a really good topic to try and attack.
But as an old author, I would be terrified of
going to try and attack that because of the the
complex issues it might have, or just getting the characters
to feel smooth and equal voiced, if that makes sense.
So did you have any of those worries and did
(36:12):
you find it kind of a almost going back to
what you said, where you're not very organized, If you're
like kind of pantst in that almost. How do you
make sure you're getting the right kind of voice out there?
Speaker 4 (36:26):
Yeah, Like, I'm definitely not the author to have written
this book, just in terms of I do not organize
my thoughts at all. I don't actually know how I
pulled it off, but I just I was very keen
on basically the four narrators not sounding the same. I
(36:47):
didn't want it to just seem like Chloe's written a
book and it's one voice and that's it. I wanted
each of them to sound different, and I wanted them
to sound different to the voice in Sunburn as well.
And it got to the point where I was so
invested in each of the four characters that it became
(37:09):
natural knowing when Okay, we've heard enough from you, now
we need to hear more from this person, and I
want to hear more from this person. And you know,
it was but it was a lot of rewriting, an
awful lot like this. I rewrote this like I couldn't
tell you how, and it was so much like chopping
and changing, and maybe initially and I would have said
(37:32):
one paragraph and then I would have said, no, that
actually is better from Tom's point of view, so then
I'm rewriting it from his point of view and what
he thinks and what he feels and what he assumes
she's thinking and feeling. So yeah, a lot of patience
was required.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yes, it must have been very tricky, but obviously done well.
How you found the feedback from reviewers? Do you read them?
Speaker 4 (37:58):
It's no, I don't read the reviews. I feel bad
saying that because people put an awful lot of time
into reviews, and it is such a skill. I have
tried to review books and I just cannot do it. It's
a real skill that I don't have. I enjoy reading
reviews of other books, but with my own stuff, I
(38:20):
just think I'm just probably too impressionable to be involved
with it. But the response has been, like, it's been
overwhelmingly positive. I thought people were going to push back
a bit because, like I said, it's not unburned too,
and I think people would have maybe liked it if
it was sunburned too, But people have just been so
(38:42):
supportive and people seem to be enjoying it, which is
really nice. So yeah, not at all what I was anticipating,
but it's just been lovely.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, so the big question is what's going to connect.
So we look in at sunburn too, or we look
in at another complete different Jon twist.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
Never. I'm not currently writing, but I think i'd like
to give it a try one day, but maybe when
I'm a bit older and I'm a bit more different
life experience.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
So Chris, I think it's about time we go to
the writing community question time and we get some of
our staple questions in and we get some questions from
the audience.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
So obviously Chris is going to play.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
This little video, and then when we get back, it's
your opportunity to ask some questions for Chloe that he
wanted to answer, and we'll ask some of our staple
questions as well.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Although before I start the question, Ross just betting there.
Don't think that was particularly for anybody. But here we
go community questions. Yeah, he just replied, this is not
(40:05):
an author question, although I'm going to ask it. Do
you think penguins taste like chicken chickens?
Speaker 5 (40:12):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Dear well, I wouldn't know, do you know what. I'm
a vegan and I haven't eaten meat in like fifteen years,
so I don't even really know what chicken tastes like
at this.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Point, if you could find anyone that I could actually
answer that, yeah, through experience, I'd be very surprised.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Anyway, Chris, I don't think many people from penguins.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
So one of the first staple questions that we have
is if you could take any character from fiction and
make that character your own, which character would you choose them?
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Why?
Speaker 4 (40:47):
It's hard to say. I'm I want to say the
character from a clockwork Orange just because he's fascinating. Do
I understand the you know, the skill and experience enough
to write that. I don't know, but he's a fascinating
character and I'd love there to be more of him
(41:08):
and his the way his brain works, because it's very
very interesting to me.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah. Interesting answer we've not had. Definitely not had that
answer before. Okay, if you could take the ending of
something and change the ending, whether it be a TV show,
a movie, or a novel, what ending would you change
your Why?
Speaker 4 (41:27):
Oh, that's a really good question. I see. I wouldn't
want to change the ending of anything because I think
things are written the way that they are for a reason,
aren't they. But maybe i'd like more of something. I'd love.
Oh my god. There's a series called it's called feel
Good and it's basically it's a really really fascinating look
(41:50):
at like this character on their journey, their journey to
understanding their sexuality and their gender. And it has a
lovely ending, a really sweet ending, but there's I'd like
there to be more of it, So maybe it ends.
That's fine, but then it begins again with a new
season because there's only two seasons and I don't think
it's ever coming back, but I'd love more of that program.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Yeah, I had answer.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Yeah, And youw's got a question for Chloe, which is,
what is a subject that you could never write about?
Speaker 4 (42:23):
A subject that I could never write about? I don't
think I, as a queer author, I wouldn't be too
interested in writing about a straight relationship from like the
main character's point of view. I don't think I could
do that in a convincing way. So maybe that I
(42:44):
don't want to limit myself creatively. I might give it
a goal one day, but I don't see myself doing that.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Just touching on that there as a queer author. We've
got a couple of people in the chat from Queer Indie,
which is a group of authors that have set up
for queer authors and allies a website which they do
amazing things. We've had them on the show multiple times.
So if you don't know about that, people, please get
in touch with Chloe about it. I'm sure they will
(43:14):
put you on the website.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah. And a question that I was going to ask
on the back of that is what advice.
Speaker 5 (43:19):
Would you give to people who are looking to be
inclusive in their writing and to write characters with different experiences.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
I would say, do it from a genuine place. It
kind of bags me when you can tell that diverse
characters have just been crow bared in. I think it's
very obvious when that's done. I think just write your
character as a person first, and then whatever they're like
(43:55):
diverse element is that can that can be a secondary thing.
It doesn't have to be like the main part of
that character. So I would say you try and make
them as fall a person as you can, and yeah,
do it from a genuine place. Don't do it because
you feel like you have to. You just have to
write the story that you want to write, and you
(44:16):
don't have to take any inclusivity boxes. You know.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
It's like my first book, Chris, when my character I
didn't even know she was going to be queer. She
just turned out to be. I had no idea that
was going to happen as a panster. Just happened. Yes,
So again, as I said, yeah, the queer in the
I don't know if you picked it up. The website
(44:42):
that they do is fantastic, so they list people and
authors on their allies that we're part of that. So
if you want us to get you in touch with them,
Halo's in the chat. I'm sure she can sort that
out and list you on there as an author. So
I don't know if you picked that up, that would
be sil cool.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
Yeah, that would be great.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Yeah. Ross Young has got a question, and that is
you mentioned a lot of rewriting. Are you someone who
rewrites continuously or do you wait until you reach the
end and then go back.
Speaker 4 (45:15):
Well, I rewrite continuously, definitely. However, at one point or
another I say to myself, you have to get to
the end now, Like I could rewrite the first chapter
one thousand times and not go beyond that. So I
try and get as much plot out as possible while rewriting.
At the same time comfortable rewriting, but it's important to
(45:38):
strike a balance. I think I couldn't just write a
full manuscript all the way to the end without rewriting it.
I don't think my brain. I don't have enough steam
in my brain to do that.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, that is tough. Do you ross? Do you write
edit along the way or just wait to the end.
I don't know anyone that could wait to the end exclusively.
What about you, Chris?
Speaker 3 (46:00):
Yeah, I think I am one of those wait till
the end tyme.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah, I can't do it.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
No, Yeah, I think I'll.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Just get it all out and then obviously the rewrites
are massive. But you know, I think if you wait
till the end and then you give it time and
then you go back.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
You come with fresh ideas and a fresh perspective.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
And it can be so long since you've written that
certain scene or chapter and you're like, I don't like
this great, and I'm going to throw this bit in
and change this.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
So there are advantages to it.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
I think I have to look back and think I
didn't write that today. Halo says two kind thanks to
the shout out. Happy to do anything and everything, So
we'll hook you up with Halo to get you listed
on the website. I'm sure she'd do that. I don't
edit everything I write. I don't edit everything I write.
It's perfect the first time. There you go. Yeah, that's
(46:55):
why it takes ten years.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
So Chloe say, if people read heap berth upon it,
who's going to enjoy it? Who's the sort of ideal
reader in your opinion?
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Well, I don't know. See, it's a funny. I would
initially say queer people, because it's a lot about the
queer experience. However, because it's set in the mid sixties,
I've had some which I've never had really before. I've
had quite a few older straight men say that they've
really enjoyed it because it reminds them of like when
(47:29):
they were young, and there's two men in it, and
it explores like different versions of masculinity, and so yeah,
I've been pleasantly surprised at this new demographic that I've reached.
So maybe queer people.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Nice. Chris, there was a question earlier on I wanted
to put up, but I forgot. So this is from
chrisp plat which authors influenced you when you were starting
out and which books made you think I want to
do this when I.
Speaker 4 (47:59):
Was starting out, Like the book that really had a
massive impact on me by Jeffrey Eugenets, and I still
love his writing. I read anything that he writes, but
his was the first, Like that book was the first
one that I thought, oh my god, I want to
do that because it's the way it's written, It's so cool.
(48:21):
I've never written I've never read anything that was cool before.
I think, all through my teens, everything I wrote, I
was just pure copying him. Jeffrey Jenety's that was like
a big one for me and still is nice.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
So, Chloe, when it comes to writing about the queer experience,
then do you feel any sort of external pressure again
about that? Because you know, proportionately to the rest of
the sort of publishing world, even though there's more queer
authors and queer experiences being written about and being published,
(48:54):
is still relatively limited in terms of the scale and size.
So how do you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (49:01):
In general?
Speaker 4 (49:03):
I feel very lucky to be a part of it.
I don't feel pressure because, like I was saying before,
there's no one truth or there's no one true experience
of any and I'm just writing versions of the queer
experience I don't really write anything kind of saying, oh,
(49:25):
someone's going to relate to this, And equally, I don't
write things thinking no one's going to relate to this,
you know, because it's a very like insular, isolated thing
for me when I'm doing it, I don't allow that
like external pressure in. But I am very comforted by
the fact that, like I said, there is no one
queer experience. It's very very nuanced and it's different for everybody,
(49:49):
which is a good thing because if there was more
of a true experience than I'd be cooked. I don't
think i'd be able to write about it.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Brilliant. Hello's got a question, thank you. What's the biggest
thing plot wise you've changed in Edits?
Speaker 4 (50:06):
Oh? I can't say, because he bred upon it. It
is a really hard book to talk about without spoiling it.
It's literally like every sentence is a potential spoiler. So
I can't exactly say. But there was a lot of
different versions of this book, and people took on very
(50:28):
different roles in these different versions. But that's about as
cryptic as I can be. I can't really answer the
question very well.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Nice Well, thank you for that, Hello, brilliant. So we've
got a couple of minutes left. So before we do
wrap things up, where can people find you on social media?
Where can they pick up your books and all of
that good stuff?
Speaker 4 (50:50):
Okay, so on social media, I'm on TikTok and Instagram.
Those are the only ones that I'm on, and I'm
at Chloe Michelle h on both of those. And then
the books you can get them from any indie support
indies like shop local. If it's not in the shop,
just ask and they'll order it in. Because I used
to be a bookseller in an indye and I know
(51:12):
that that's a little hack. If it's not there, just ask.
But also they're in the big shops, They're in Waterstones
and places like that, if that's more convenient.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
See, we always ask, like a Morbige show at Marbage show,
morbid question, which is, if you're on your deathbed and
you're looking back at your right and career, what is success?
Speaker 1 (51:30):
What does that look like to you?
Speaker 3 (51:32):
I'm going to change it a little bit and ask
you what do you think you're writing?
Speaker 2 (51:37):
The legacy will be.
Speaker 4 (51:39):
Ooh oh, I don't know about that. My writing legacy.
I think I I really have enjoyed writing about rural queerness,
and I think it's something that we don't see an
awful lot of. It's queerness is more often depicted in
(52:01):
urban spaces, certainly not in places like rural Ireland. We
don't see an awful lot of that. So I think
maybe for writing about that potentially, although I've never considered that,
So You're you're making me freak out.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Like existentially tricky question there, Chris.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
If we do go back to the original question and
you're on your deathbed and you're looking back at your
writing career, what would you be happy with?
Speaker 1 (52:28):
What is success? Do you.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Do?
Speaker 4 (52:32):
You know, actually it's kind of the same thing. I
think I would just be really happy for writing about
rural Irish queerness because it's not something that I've seen before.
And I'm I'm proud of myself that I was like,
fuck it, I'm just going to put that out there
(52:53):
because obviously it's quite close to me. It's a bit
close to the bone, you know, but I'm glad I
did it.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
It's it's bit of amazing. Well, Chloe, thank you so
so much for joining us. Apologies for the Internet connections
dropping it out there occasionally, but don't strong stress about it. Yeah,
your story has been amazing and I love I love
how you're writing true to what you know and the
smaller places, like you're talking about the little rural areas
(53:21):
and that's a lot of place. It's a lot of
atmosphere and place that people do not kind of get
to know because they maybe live, like you said, in
the cities or elsewhere. So it's a good insight for
them as well. And you're representing those small communities, so
well done for that. But yeah, you're writing career gone
in two different directions so far. Exciting to see where
it goes. And thank you for sharing your story with us.
Speaker 4 (53:44):
Thank you so much for having me Chris, and Chris,
I really really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Chloe, before we go, we love recommendations on this show,
So could you recommend either an author or a couple
of authors, or a book that you think everyone needs
to read? This one, well, I.
Speaker 4 (54:05):
Would say, like, okay, let's do essential queer reading. The
Color Purple is the best book potentially that I've ever read.
It's so good and I think sometimes it's one that
people glass over because it's like a classic and it's
easy to put it on the long list, but it's
(54:25):
just a flawless book. So that's my recommendation.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Amazing love that perfect. So thank you everybody for tuning
in tonight and for giving your brilliant questions. Please do
hit the like button, leave some comments, and of course
if you want to get in touch with Chloe, we
will leave the socials up where we can, and she
did mention them as well, so if you're listening back
on the podcast as well, thank you, and Halo I
(54:50):
will drop you an email with Chloe's email and you
two can get connected. But from us, thank you so
much for tuning in, have a great week and a
great weekend. We'll see you next week with another show.
So from us, it's goodbye, Thank you everybody.
Speaker 4 (55:04):
Bye,
Hello everybody, and welcome to this week's Writing Community chat show.
It's good to be back. We've got another fantastic guest
lined up for you today. Chris is perfectly timed as always. Yeah,
it's been it's been two weeks since Las show. Halloween
landed right on our Friday, and we do normally do
a Halloween show, but we didn't quite get there this
this time, mainly because I've been very un well last week,
(00:21):
which has been terrible. But you know, it's good to
be back on the show and feeling more like myself. Hello,
Chris Huy, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, very good, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
How are you? Yeah, feeling more alive, which is which
is lovely. And hello to you another Chris. There you go.
Three Chris is all in one space. Yeah. How we've been.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah, it's been good. Not so much writing but reading.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Got stuck into a few conspiracy theories about three I Atlas.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Okay, yeah, that was interesting.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Is that the space thing? Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, it was a comment that everyone jumped on. It
was just a comment. Brian Cotts came out said it
was a comment. Obviously, when anything comes close to us,
people like to speculate.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
And when you say they jumped on it, I don't
think you mean literally.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
No, definitely not literally.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Well, people are saying that, oh, it's sending code out
and it's sending messages, and these are the messages that
it's sent out, and it's like we come in peace
and all this sort of stuff, and it was just.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
A load of Yeah. I don't think they really were,
but there you go. It is interesting, but they the
conspiracy is not really my thing. I don't want to
get into them because I don't want to have that
sort of obsession about something that I could do without,
if you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, but this week was really good for guests. We've
booked in loads, which is great.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Sometimes we have a little admin purge and just get
all the guests that have emailed in and inquired and
all that type of stuff, and some obviously that haven't
and we approached them. So yeah, it's been really productive
on that front. In terms of future shows, the guests
we've got on are going to be brilliant, So yeah,
(02:10):
more for people stage.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So a bit of news as well on the social
side of things. We started our own stand store two
weeks ago. We had Anya join it as a community member,
so thank you so much for that. And we did
our first writing sprint, which was quite productive. I feel,
as someone who lost his mojo recently, that was quite good.
I put a TikTok video out there asking the community
(02:34):
for the indie authors to remind them how value they
are and supported, and for them to send their book
requests their book links in to the show, and we
had a big reaction to that, nearly ten thousand views
at the moment, lots of likes and comments and shares
on there, and we've got tons and tons of book
links in there and people talking about their indie books.
(02:55):
So we're going to go through those. We're going to
find one that really jumps out us, and we're going
to feel that we feel is valued, and we're going
to read that book, review it for them, and get
them on the show. So if you haven't seen that
and you want to be part of that process and
you want to put your book links on there, please
go to our TikTok account and find that video. It's
the one with more views than the rest of them,
(03:16):
so you'll find it there.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, sounds good.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
We love a good book scroll and a little nose
everyone's books, so yeah, send them in.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, definitely, and hello to you all in the chat.
It's good to have you back engaging in there and
saying hello to each other. It's all about the community
here and we love that, so please do get chating
to each other. And he says, I need to get
on TikTok. You certainly do book talk and TikTok author
talk all of that good stuff. It really does feel active.
And what we were talking about with our guests just before
(03:46):
we started this was how the demise of X shall
we say, the engagement and why the show started through
the community on there, and we're looking for that community
elsewhere and we feel there is a lot of people,
like minded people all doing the same sort of thing
over on TikTok, so it is certainly worth doing it,
if nothing else for posting pictures, which you can do
(04:09):
now and engaging with authors that way if you're not
comfortable going live, so give that a go and find
the community there as well. And of course substat Chris,
are you ready for tonight's guest?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Indeed, I'm looking forward.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
And if you are in the chat, please do leave
some comments of encouragement for Tonight's guest and of course
questions throughout and if you haven't done so, hit that
like button. So our guest Tonight is one of the
most exciting new voices in Irish literary fiction. Her acclaimed
twenty twenty three debut Sunburn, earned her shortlist nominations for
the prestigious honors like the Nero Book Award for Debut
(04:44):
Fiction and the Polari First Book Prize. She has recently
followed that up with the success of a striking tonal Shift,
a much darker nineteen sixty set Gothic novel Heap. The
heap Earth upon it, which is above Chris's head looks lovely,
so please help me giving a nice, big, warm write
and commute. Church're welcome to the incredibly talented Chloe Michelle Howorth. Hello, Hi,
(05:08):
how are you doing having me?
Speaker 4 (05:09):
I'm good?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Thank you?
Speaker 4 (05:10):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah? We're good. We like I said, we've we've missed
the show. We've been two weeks, which is unusual for us,
so we're very good to be glad to be back
and it's great to have you back. To kick that
back off.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Oh super yeah, I bet two weeks feels like a
long time to not be doing it if you're so
used to doing it every week.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, we really do. I mean we've done a lot
of interviews and it's not often we actually have a break,
so that was a bit of a weird one. But
then to come back with someone like yourself tonight and
get a brand new story about someone about the sort
of writing path and all that good stuff. We're looking
forward to it. So thank you for joining us.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Super Yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Let's get started absolutely. First of all, as always, where
are you joining us from?
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Well, I don't I have an Irish accent. Obviously I
am Irish, but I live in bright and now I've
been here for nearly five years. I didn't plan on
spending so much time here, but there you go. That's
the way it goes. So I'm in my flat in
Brighton and it's very cozy this evening about candles are
lighting and it's very nice vibes on here tonight.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah. Can you see the sea from where you are?
Speaker 4 (06:19):
I can see it if I go out my door,
but I don't have, like cea view from in the
in the flat.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Okay, it's excellent, and we've had a few people from
Brighton I can't remember who they are. The one connection
with Brighton this show's got is we actually had their
own beer made which was incredible years ago and they
were sent it to us loads of the beers. So
there's our writing and community churchhop that's so huge pale
(06:45):
ale and it was made by Bison Brewery, which is there.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Oh that's incredible?
Speaker 5 (06:51):
Is it nice?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah? That was That was brilliant. So Brighton has been
kind to us and bringing you to us as well.
So what we always ask is what is the author
connection maybe even readership connection like where you live? So
in terms of Brighton, do you link it with other authors?
Do people who read your books bump into you? Does
that kind of happen?
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Yeah, it's it's funny like only in probably the last
six months has that started happening. There's a local author
called Andrew Fleuett who has a non fiction book called
Do You Believe in Life After Loss? And it's all
about it's a series of interviews with different queer people
(07:33):
and they discuss different forms of loss that they've had
in their lives. So there's grief or you know, maybe
the loss of a job. Somebody overcame a battle with
addiction and that was a form of grief. And he
lives in Brighton and we've become like little writing bodies,
which is really really nice because I've never really written
with anyone before. It's a very solitary thing for me.
(07:55):
So whenever he texts and he's like, bring your laptop,
let's get a coffee, I'm like, oh, relif it's really nice.
And then as far as people coming up to me, yeah,
that happens now and then, and it's always when I'm
looking my worst, when I've been out the night before
and I'm like crawling to the shop to get a
(08:16):
Lucas eis Ford. Someone seems to go, well, you wrote sunburn,
and I'm like, oh Jesus. So it's lovely when it happens,
but I just wish I had makeup on the next time.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
It happened, do you know what. That's so nice and
I don't think many people have that way. Someone can
ring you and say come on, pop down, we go
in somewhere for a writing effort, and I think that's lovely.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
It's really nice.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
You know. We do recognize that it's mainly you sat
behind your desk. It's not online interaction. A lot of
the time, so that's why we try and create the
things like the writing sprints that we've now started. And
I think having that sort of personal relationship with someone
in your local area could be a really beneficial thing.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I think also like it's just
good to talk to someone who is pursue doing the
same thing as you and they kind of understand the
frustrations and the insecurities and all of those you know,
not so nice emotions that you don't typically talk about
with this job. So yeah, it's good to have people
(09:14):
who know where you're coming from for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, and the other thing you touched on there was
grief based on that conversation, and what you highlighted, well,
a lot of people don't realize is as simple moving
away as a child or doing many different things that
you don't think could influence grief really does.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, like the angles that Andrew looks
at it in the book were things I'd never considered before,
but it's so so well done and it made me
think of like even like leaving Ireland and moving to England,
Like there was you know, when I kind of realized
not going home I'm actually here now for the foreseeable, Like,
there's certainly a bit of grief in that. You know,
(09:56):
it's strange when you realize how many different parts of
your life it can talk.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, well, that's that's where life experience becomes a beneficial
asset to your writing because understanding that element that grief
can come from a lot of places and you're going
through it in that removal of your kind, of your
culture and your family, You've then got that experience to
put into your characters, which I think makes it better
for the reader.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I think, like, yeah, it's true,
the more life you live, the better you're writing. Is
Like I think, if I hadn't left where I was
living before, maybe I wouldn't have written a second book,
because maybe I would, like Sunburn, my first book is
very much based in the type of village where I
(10:41):
was living, and so maybe nothing else would have ever come.
Maybe I would have been like, well, I've written about
this now and that's that's my novel. That's the end
of it.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So in a way, well, let me play a little video,
which is part one of the road to writing, and
then we get stuck into that kind of journey in
a brief kind of way, and then we can look
at uh, you know, Sunburn, which is a novel that's
done extremely well for you, and then how you've got
to where you are now. So I'll play this video
and we'll get straight into it. So Chloe, rewind us,
(11:26):
rewind the tape. I'm just looking at a tape on
the corner there. That's how old I am. Rewind the
tape right back to the start for us. And when
did writing suddenly become something you thought about becoming more
in your life?
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Well, I had always written as a teenager, even as
going back as far as my childhood, I've always kept
diaries and so it was very like habitual for me
to write about what I was feeling. I think if
I hadn't done that from such a young age, perhaps
I wouldn't have come to writing, because as a teenager,
(12:02):
those diaries kind of started to develop and became less
and less about me and more and more just about
the words and the structures of the sentences and you
know what words I found interesting, And eventually that kind
of started to become fiction, which I then made longer
and longer. So it's something I've always done, but it
(12:23):
wasn't really until lockdown. Like that's when I wrote Sunburn.
Like I said, I'd written before that, but I just
hadn't written anything that was kind of worth doing anything
with or worth pursuing, just because you know, it wasn't
quite there yet. And so I was lucky really with
all of the time, the free time that I hadn't
(12:44):
lockdown because I wasn't like frontline working or anything. I
was just at home. I was working from home, but
like working from home, I wasn't really I used to
work for customer service. I answered the calls on the
little health's headset, so I did not a lot of writing,
you know, while I was doing that job. So yeah,
that was when I was like, God, I don't even
(13:05):
know what age I was because everyone says this, don't they,
But like the timeline of COVID has actually just completely
lost on me. I was in my kind of early
mid twenties roughly. I don't know really what age I
was when I wrote Sunburn.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I think COVID is time is lost since COVID interesting
then what you talked about writing stuff that you didn't
really think had had the wow factor? I suppose, so
what made Sunburn be the difference then?
Speaker 4 (13:36):
I think the difference between what I had previously written
on Sunburn was that I was just I was less
embarrassed of it than I was of all that, Like
I would never have shared those early things with other people,
whereas Thunburne, I thought like, obviously I was still embarrassed
because I was like, here's this thing I've been working
(13:57):
on and didn't tell anyone about it, and now I've
written the full length novel. There was something embarrassing in that,
But I wasn't so embarrassed of the writing in it.
I kind of just had a feeling like I was like,
it's not bad, so yeah, But really it wasn't like
something I didn't say, Oh, this is brilliant, I'm going
to pursue this. Actually it was my mom and my
(14:17):
friend who were like, you just write all the time,
and it'd be a shame not to do anything with it.
So then they suggested that I try and get it published.
So really it came from them. If they hadn't done that,
I probably would never have done anything with it. I
would have just kept it as a Google doc forever.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Olie, I'm really interested about the whole diary process and
writing diary entries and.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Things like that.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
And I suppose there's a certain amount of freedom with
the first novel because there's no external pressure.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
So can you talk us through that process.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
In terms of like how you sort of transitioned from
diary writing and the first novel and what was that
like and then taking on a second novel where there
is a little bit more external pressure.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Yeah. Well, in terms of the transition from diary writing
to fiction writing, I think really it's just that it
was it was realistically the same emotions that I was feeling,
but fictionalized. I was putting my feelings into situations and
characters and everything that were quite different from what I
was going through. But oftentimes what I write, the feelings
(15:30):
are real, it's just the situations aren't. And I think
that has stood to me because if there's a great
truth in the feeling of a piece, I think that
goes a long way. But I, like, God, something was
coming out. It did feel like people were reading my diary,
and even now with hey birth upon it, I am
still a bit like, no, there is something like nerve
(15:54):
wracking about it because it's just you and your own writing.
For like a year, then all of a sudden, anyone
who wants access to it can just have it. And yeah,
it does sometimes feel a little bit like people are
reading my diary, but I really just I always just
try to say to myself, like, well, no one will
ever read this, you know, And as long as it's
(16:15):
something that I'm just doing for myself to entertain myself
or to work through feelings or things like that, then
I find I have an awful lot of freedom. But
if I ever consider an audience, then I think, well,
I can't do this.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You know.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
Imagine writing in your diary and thinking was someone's going
to read this? It would be so sanitized you'd never
put anything real down. So with the novels, I just
have to really pretend that they'll never be read, and
that seems to help.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Did you have any idea writing that through lockdown? When
I guess you had spent a lot of time in
your own mind during that time, as a lot of
us did, that you would actually take that to a
point where it would get signed and get a lot
of recognition. Did you think that would happen?
Speaker 4 (16:57):
No, like, not at all, be honest, But it was
good timing. Because because it was lockdown, and like I was,
I had just graduated from UNI, so I was kind
of ready to go out into the world. And then
within probably three months, full lockdown, and I was living
at my parents' house and I was like, right, so
(17:19):
this is me now forever. So I kind of felt
like I had nothing to lose. I was at a
point where I was like, just try it, and whatever
happens happens, so it's good. I didn't really have any
hopes for it at all, But equally I was like,
there's no harm in trying and just see what happens.
Obviously I'm lucky it worked out really well, but yeah,
(17:39):
I didn't have any ambition of what it would end
up being, which I think is a good thing because
you know, it was such a gamble and I could
have very easily been disappointed.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
So Ross has said in the comments, I get that.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
So here's the thing I did, awkwardness, And what's it
like then when you got that manuscript and you hand
it over to other people and they accept it, and
then you, I'm assuming you get editorial notes and stuff
like that.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
How did you find that and sort of work.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Your way around those notes and the advice that you
were suddenly being given about your writing.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Well, I you know, my agent, my first agent was brilliant,
and she was a really good editor. And I remember
the first lot of notes I got back. You know,
there was an instant where I was like, oh, because
no one had ever read it before, let alone critiqued it.
So I was like, oh, god, this is a bit.
(18:38):
You know. I didn't get hurt for a second, but
then I thought, actually, this is a professional. She's does
this for a living and she's put her time into this.
So I just took on board everything that she said,
and I was like, I just want to learn from this,
and while I have access to her, because at that point,
I didn't have a publishing deal and I didn't know
(18:58):
how the whole publishing game worked, so I was like,
she could drop me in the morning if she wanted to.
It turns out that's not how it works, but I
didn't know. So I was like, I'm going to make
the best of this while I can took all her
edits on board, and yeah, it was an interesting experience
learning like where to say no, I don't agree with that,
I'm going to keep this as it is, and then
(19:19):
where to say, Okay, I'm going to follow your advice
on this one. But yeah, I let myself be very
very open to everything that she had to say, and
that was definitely beneficial because like the book that made
it to publication and the book that she initially read
are definitely not the same thing. She really helped me
get it to where it is. Now.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
What do you think was the biggest tip that you
took from that process working with people like that that
you could maybe pass on to people watching dad.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
I would say less can be more. She really taught
me how important it is to refine what you're doing.
Because I love like over the top, very dramatic, detailed prose,
and I love descriptions. That's what I enjoy reading, and
that's what I enjoy writing, and so I would be
(20:13):
quite happy to, you know, make a statement and then
describe it in five different ways, but there's no need
for that a lot of the time. And she taught
me that, you know, just how to refine the work
and where it's okay to be indulgent like that and
where it's not so necessary. So yeah, I would say
less is more.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, I definitely agree.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
And with that, then Obviously, the manuscripts here and it's done.
You've got to deal with the books out. People are opposite.
It's come to critical acclaim and really well, obviously the
reviews that's pouring in. How do you then prepare yourself
mentally to go again and write the next book.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Well, see, I think I'm lucky because, as I said,
I was doing it all the time anyway. I've always
always written. And so even if they had turned around
and said, look, we were happy with Sunburn, but we
don't want to do another book with you, I don't
see a world in which I would have said, well,
I'll never write again. I would have just written something anyway,
(21:15):
because it's like, it's my favorite thing to do. It's
my favorite creative pursuit, my favorite hobby. So I would
just definitely have done it again either way. The one
thing I did have to do is go back to
the idea that no one will read this, because I
was a bit concerned that I knew I didn't want
to write Sunburn again. I wanted to write something that
(21:38):
was fairly different, and I thought, oh god, well you know, finally,
now it's going well with the writing and stuff, and
I'm about to turn my back on the thing that's
doing well. That was a bit nerve wracking. But when
I told myself like, well, no one's going to read it,
so it doesn't matter. Just do it entertain yourself, then
it was very freeing, and it was very you know,
I really enjoyed it at that point, but I had
(21:59):
to let go of that audience.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
What were the publishers like in that moment, because some
publishers will say, oh, someone did really well, we want
another summer novel, but obviously you've not done that, You've
moved away from it in terms of writing something completely different,
and so what was that process like in terms of
like navigating that with the publisher and chatting to them
(22:24):
about the next book.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
Well, I was really lucky that people were very supportive
of it, and I felt the whole time that I
really had an awful lot of creative control. You know,
obviously I had full creative control when I wrote the thing,
but then presenting it to people who would be well
within their rights to say oh that totally it doesn't work,
(22:48):
or you need to shift all the chapters around or something,
I didn't get much pushback. People were just seemed to
be quite happy to let me go for it with
this second book. I don't know why they trusted me, because,
like I said, it is quite different to Sunburn. But
I was very lucky. But yeah, they just let me
go for it, and they were very enthusiastic and very supportive.
(23:12):
I think they just understood the vibe of it. They
got what I was going for quite early on, so
they were like, Okay, just do it and we'll see
how it goes.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I'm quite interested in knowing if you felt any different
writing Sunburn in Cork for example, and Heap Earth upon
It in Brighton. My brain is very it's still unwell
from the week, so I was struggling here.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Literally, I've only just got the cadence of it now
heap birth upon it. It took me ages to be
like keep Earth upon it. It's kind of a tone twister,
like in.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Terms of the atmospherics, like when you're in a different
situation and you've written different very different timelines and genre here,
So with did you have any influence from say, writing
in one place to the other. Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (24:02):
Yeah, yeah, it was definitely a different experience, like the
time and place in which I wrote Sunburn was the
perfect environment for that book, and I missed it. I
definitely missed it when I was writing the second book,
because it was just a joy. I mean, I was
(24:24):
surrounded like, oh, where I'm from is beautiful. It's so beautiful,
and because I write so much about the Irish country side,
like the inspiration was everywhere and I was. I think
it was only when I tried to write the second book,
not living there, I realized how spoiled I was the
first time around. But I think being away from that
(24:45):
helped with the you know, helped me to romanticize it
a lot more because this is quite a dark book,
but there are light moments and moments of hope and
you know, uplifting things, And I think part of that
comes from really romanticizing the atmosphere that it's written in.
But also I don't know if I would have gone
(25:06):
quite so gothic had I not been living in a city.
I think that's definitely helped to, you know, make it
a bit grittier and a bit you know, there's there's
a bit more like bite to it. Sunburn is very sweet,
where this is a bit more intense. And I think
living in like the middle of Town helped with that
for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I guess the big question then is why the massive switch?
Speaker 4 (25:32):
Well, why not? Like I think I've done that. I
know I've done sunburn. Now I've done that, and I
thought I won't be entertained if I do that again
immediately again, because like I said, I really am just
the main reason I do it is to just entertain myself,
fulfill myself creatively. So I was like, I've kind of
(25:54):
just done that for like two years, and I don't
want to do it again straight away. I might go
back to it one day, but I just wanted to
do the opposite and kind of I think first of all,
proved myself that I could do something else, and I
knew that new things would be opened up to me
if I faced in a different direction and I was
(26:15):
looking at different a different type of not a different world,
I say, but a different setting for instance. I knew
that it would kind of inspire new language and new
emotions and things like that. So yeah, I just said
I'd go for it.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
With someone.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Then. Obviously the idea has probably been festering for quite
a while in terms of you getting that book written
and out there, because that's always the case with people's
first book, But then with Earth upon It, how did
you know, oh, yeah, this is the second book that
I'm going to write and land on that because a
lot of writers obviously struggle with They go, oh, I
(26:53):
got this idea and this one and this one, but
how do you know that that's the one.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
With the juice that's worth squeezing.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Well, I'm not really sure if I can answer that
question properly because it was with Sunburn. I remember I
was coming home from a New Year's Eve party on
New Year's Day and I just had the idea on
the boss and I was like, oh, that's an idea.
I'll just write that. And I kind of started writing
(27:20):
it there and then and then just pursued it until
it was done. It took about nine months, so I
didn't have that thing of I know some people take
years and years to do their first novel, but I
think again, because it was literally became lockdown. So soon
after that, I was like, they're not holding me back. Now,
I'll just write the thing. So then with the heat
Birth upon It, it was very similar like once an
(27:43):
idea came, it was kind of just the second idea
that I had after sunburn with it, I didn't really
have another idea, and a similarly, I was like, right, okay,
I'll just write this book then, and then I just
I don't really give myself time to consider like is
this worth issuing? Could something better come along? Because if
something better comes along, well I'll deal with that at
(28:04):
the time. But I you know, I only had one
idea both times, so I just went with.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I love that. It's like there's a tip. There's a
tip for you if you hangover, get on the bus
and an idea might come to you. It might be
the best one that you've had.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Yeah, exactly. I think it's worth being impulsive like it can.
It's easy to mol over an idea for a really
long time and try and get it perfect in your
brain and it expands and expands and expands before you've
written anything, and that can't happen very easily. So I
think it's worth just as soon as you have an idea,
just start, and then it's keeping going. That's the hard part.
(28:41):
Starting is easy, but keeping going then as you have
to see it through.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
You know absolutely well, with that idea that we've just
heard a little bit about, we're going to play part
two the video for part two, which is what's the
story and when we come back, Chloe, if you can
give the audience your best pitch for this book and
we'll get stuck into it, so heap earth upon it.
(29:11):
Can you tell us what that is all about? Please?
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Yes? So heap earth upon It is set in rural
Ireland in nineteen sixty five, and it follows four orphaned siblings,
the Oliary siblings, one of whom is about eleven, and
the arrest are in their late twenties, so it's like
three adults and a child, and we meet them as
(29:35):
their moving town overnight to restart their lives in a
new village, and it's very suspicious circumstances. We're not quite
sure why they've left. We just know that they're running
from something, and we learn along with the locals of
this new village what's up with the oleriis why are
(29:57):
they like this? Their very intense family, and so we
kind of follow them on their journey trying to settle
into this new town. There's lots of Arafic obsession in it,
and there's lots of dealing with grief and repression. Yeah,
it's quite pasy. It's quite spooky, A mystery kind of
(30:19):
unfolds as you read it.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I'm really it's the swap genres what this really draw
me here? Do you think, like the darkness in terms
of the grittiness of the sixties and sixties and the
little towns with the families that are kind of dealing
with all these issues, the atmospheric style of that. Do
you think that's what you're drawn to naturally is why
(30:42):
you came to this?
Speaker 4 (30:43):
Do you think, Well, really, the initial thing was the season.
It's set in January, and I think the genre really
came from that time of year, because if you consider
like a very very small, quiet rural village in the
depths of January, it is quite spooky visually, like all
(31:06):
the you know, the trees, the bare trees, and the
gray skies and stone walls and ruins and one lonely
pub in the middle of nowhere like that is that
lends itself to the Gothic really really well. And so
I knew I wanted there to be I wanted this
book to be more pasty essentially than Sunburn, bit, more
(31:29):
of a page turner. So I knew there'd have to
be some secrets in it, and then that gothic part
of it really just came from the season that it
was set in. And then I think when those two
things married together that kind of informed the rest of
the piece.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
So with a novel that's got secrets in it, as
an author without giving anything away here, as an author,
how do you place those secrets in or do you
leave clues so the reader can possibly pick those up,
or do you just put them in there as a
complete shock factor?
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Well, I mean it was a difficult thing for me
to execute because I'm not very organized, and so I
didn't have a full plan going into it. I wish
I had. I think it's better to do a combination
of the two because if it's all clues clues clues,
(32:22):
where's the payoff? You know, you don't want people to
have to get to the very last page before they go, oh,
that's what it all meant. You kind of have to
give little bits of payoff throughout. But it's just about
deciding like, Okay, well what do I keep back and
how long do I keep it back? And yeah, the
revealing of the information, when do you to show your monsters?
(32:45):
It was challenging. I did enjoy it. But like I said,
I'm not very organized, so it wasn't the smoothest process.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
So Chloe, when you realize obviously and you're writing that
you write in a Gothic novel, does that have any
actor in terms of like, oh, this is what people
would expect from a Gothic novel, so I must be
including some of these elements or you know do you
just kind of go with it and then the gothic
comes out with the set in and the family and
(33:13):
things like that.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
It kind of just came out to be honest, like,
now that it's out, I'm using the word Gothic because
that's what like all the marketing people are using and
the like that's that's the word that's being used. I
think maybe Irish gothic is a better description of it.
Because I did literature me, I hesitate to call this
(33:36):
a Gothic novel because for me, the Gothic is like
ps and you know that sort of thing, like the
Carmela vibe, Like that's the Gothic to me. So yeah,
it's a weird one. A part of me doesn't want
(33:57):
to say that it's Gothic, but I think the Irish
Gothic is a is a good thing to call it.
So it didn't really click with me for a long
time that it was got. I knew it was eerie,
but I wouldn't have called it gothic for the majority
of the writing process. I think.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
In the book you've used Tom Jack, Annaron Betty four voices.
How did you or why did you decide to go
with the full voice sort of look into the story
or direction with it.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Yeah, what I was just about to say was I
became very interested in the notion of people experiencing things differently. So,
for example, the three of us are having this chat,
but I'm having a very different conversation to what you're
and what you're having and what the people in the
chat room are having. We're all experiencing it very differently,
(34:46):
although it's the exact same thing, And so I just
wanted to capture moments where the characters were all at
the same event or having the same meal, or feeling
the same feelings and just examine different reactions to it.
That was like something I was really interested in exploring,
(35:06):
and so initially I was writing The Four Siblings, that
kind of was the natural thing for me to do.
But then, you know, as I got further into the process,
I realized that an external voice would really benefit the story.
So that's where Betty comes in. Betty is one of
the people who lives in the village, and she's very
(35:28):
helpful because she's a bit more of an outsider along
with the reader. She you know, you're kind of positioned
with her, whereas when you're in with the family there's
a lot of unreliable narration going on. So that's how
I came to using Betty. But yeah, this is just
this weird obsession with them. They're not being one universal
truth for anything. I just wanted to dive into that.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah, I think that's amazing. It's not done nearly enough,
and I get exactly why you're saying that, and I
think it's a really good topic to try and attack.
But as an old author, I would be terrified of
going to try and attack that because of the the
complex issues it might have, or just getting the characters
to feel smooth and equal voiced, if that makes sense.
So did you have any of those worries and did
(36:12):
you find it kind of a almost going back to
what you said, where you're not very organized, If you're
like kind of pantst in that almost. How do you
make sure you're getting the right kind of voice out there?
Speaker 4 (36:26):
Yeah, Like, I'm definitely not the author to have written
this book, just in terms of I do not organize
my thoughts at all. I don't actually know how I
pulled it off, but I just I was very keen
on basically the four narrators not sounding the same. I
(36:47):
didn't want it to just seem like Chloe's written a
book and it's one voice and that's it. I wanted
each of them to sound different, and I wanted them
to sound different to the voice in Sunburn as well.
And it got to the point where I was so
invested in each of the four characters that it became
(37:09):
natural knowing when Okay, we've heard enough from you, now
we need to hear more from this person, and I
want to hear more from this person. And you know,
it was but it was a lot of rewriting, an
awful lot like this. I rewrote this like I couldn't
tell you how, and it was so much like chopping
and changing, and maybe initially and I would have said
(37:32):
one paragraph and then I would have said, no, that
actually is better from Tom's point of view, so then
I'm rewriting it from his point of view and what
he thinks and what he feels and what he assumes
she's thinking and feeling. So yeah, a lot of patience
was required.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yes, it must have been very tricky, but obviously done well.
How you found the feedback from reviewers? Do you read them?
Speaker 4 (37:58):
It's no, I don't read the reviews. I feel bad
saying that because people put an awful lot of time
into reviews, and it is such a skill. I have
tried to review books and I just cannot do it. It's
a real skill that I don't have. I enjoy reading
reviews of other books, but with my own stuff, I
(38:20):
just think I'm just probably too impressionable to be involved
with it. But the response has been, like, it's been
overwhelmingly positive. I thought people were going to push back
a bit because, like I said, it's not unburned too,
and I think people would have maybe liked it if
it was sunburned too, But people have just been so
(38:42):
supportive and people seem to be enjoying it, which is
really nice. So yeah, not at all what I was anticipating,
but it's just been lovely.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, so the big question is what's going to connect.
So we look in at sunburn too, or we look
in at another complete different Jon twist.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
Never. I'm not currently writing, but I think i'd like
to give it a try one day, but maybe when
I'm a bit older and I'm a bit more different
life experience.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
So Chris, I think it's about time we go to
the writing community question time and we get some of
our staple questions in and we get some questions from
the audience.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
So obviously Chris is going to play.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
This little video, and then when we get back, it's
your opportunity to ask some questions for Chloe that he
wanted to answer, and we'll ask some of our staple
questions as well.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Although before I start the question, Ross just betting there.
Don't think that was particularly for anybody. But here we
go community questions. Yeah, he just replied, this is not
(40:05):
an author question, although I'm going to ask it. Do
you think penguins taste like chicken chickens?
Speaker 5 (40:12):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Dear well, I wouldn't know, do you know what. I'm
a vegan and I haven't eaten meat in like fifteen years,
so I don't even really know what chicken tastes like
at this.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Point, if you could find anyone that I could actually
answer that, yeah, through experience, I'd be very surprised.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Anyway, Chris, I don't think many people from penguins.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
So one of the first staple questions that we have
is if you could take any character from fiction and
make that character your own, which character would you choose them?
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Why?
Speaker 4 (40:47):
It's hard to say. I'm I want to say the
character from a clockwork Orange just because he's fascinating. Do
I understand the you know, the skill and experience enough
to write that. I don't know, but he's a fascinating
character and I'd love there to be more of him
(41:08):
and his the way his brain works, because it's very
very interesting to me.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah. Interesting answer we've not had. Definitely not had that
answer before. Okay, if you could take the ending of
something and change the ending, whether it be a TV show,
a movie, or a novel, what ending would you change
your Why?
Speaker 4 (41:27):
Oh, that's a really good question. I see. I wouldn't
want to change the ending of anything because I think
things are written the way that they are for a reason,
aren't they. But maybe i'd like more of something. I'd love.
Oh my god. There's a series called it's called feel
Good and it's basically it's a really really fascinating look
(41:50):
at like this character on their journey, their journey to
understanding their sexuality and their gender. And it has a
lovely ending, a really sweet ending, but there's I'd like
there to be more of it, So maybe it ends.
That's fine, but then it begins again with a new
season because there's only two seasons and I don't think
it's ever coming back, but I'd love more of that program.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Yeah, I had answer.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Yeah, And youw's got a question for Chloe, which is,
what is a subject that you could never write about?
Speaker 4 (42:23):
A subject that I could never write about? I don't
think I, as a queer author, I wouldn't be too
interested in writing about a straight relationship from like the
main character's point of view. I don't think I could
do that in a convincing way. So maybe that I
(42:44):
don't want to limit myself creatively. I might give it
a goal one day, but I don't see myself doing that.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Just touching on that there as a queer author. We've
got a couple of people in the chat from Queer Indie,
which is a group of authors that have set up
for queer authors and allies a website which they do
amazing things. We've had them on the show multiple times.
So if you don't know about that, people, please get
in touch with Chloe about it. I'm sure they will
(43:14):
put you on the website.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah. And a question that I was going to ask
on the back of that is what advice.
Speaker 5 (43:19):
Would you give to people who are looking to be
inclusive in their writing and to write characters with different experiences.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
I would say, do it from a genuine place. It
kind of bags me when you can tell that diverse
characters have just been crow bared in. I think it's
very obvious when that's done. I think just write your
character as a person first, and then whatever they're like
(43:55):
diverse element is that can that can be a secondary thing.
It doesn't have to be like the main part of
that character. So I would say you try and make
them as fall a person as you can, and yeah,
do it from a genuine place. Don't do it because
you feel like you have to. You just have to
write the story that you want to write, and you
(44:16):
don't have to take any inclusivity boxes. You know.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
It's like my first book, Chris, when my character I
didn't even know she was going to be queer. She
just turned out to be. I had no idea that
was going to happen as a panster. Just happened. Yes,
So again, as I said, yeah, the queer in the
I don't know if you picked it up. The website
(44:42):
that they do is fantastic, so they list people and
authors on their allies that we're part of that. So
if you want us to get you in touch with them,
Halo's in the chat. I'm sure she can sort that
out and list you on there as an author. So
I don't know if you picked that up, that would
be sil cool.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
Yeah, that would be great.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Yeah. Ross Young has got a question, and that is
you mentioned a lot of rewriting. Are you someone who
rewrites continuously or do you wait until you reach the
end and then go back.
Speaker 4 (45:15):
Well, I rewrite continuously, definitely. However, at one point or
another I say to myself, you have to get to
the end now, Like I could rewrite the first chapter
one thousand times and not go beyond that. So I
try and get as much plot out as possible while rewriting.
At the same time comfortable rewriting, but it's important to
(45:38):
strike a balance. I think I couldn't just write a
full manuscript all the way to the end without rewriting it.
I don't think my brain. I don't have enough steam
in my brain to do that.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, that is tough. Do you ross? Do you write
edit along the way or just wait to the end.
I don't know anyone that could wait to the end exclusively.
What about you, Chris?
Speaker 3 (46:00):
Yeah, I think I am one of those wait till
the end tyme.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah, I can't do it.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
No, Yeah, I think I'll.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Just get it all out and then obviously the rewrites
are massive. But you know, I think if you wait
till the end and then you give it time and
then you go back.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
You come with fresh ideas and a fresh perspective.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
And it can be so long since you've written that
certain scene or chapter and you're like, I don't like
this great, and I'm going to throw this bit in
and change this.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
So there are advantages to it.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
I think I have to look back and think I
didn't write that today. Halo says two kind thanks to
the shout out. Happy to do anything and everything, So
we'll hook you up with Halo to get you listed
on the website. I'm sure she'd do that. I don't
edit everything I write. I don't edit everything I write.
It's perfect the first time. There you go. Yeah, that's
(46:55):
why it takes ten years.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
So Chloe say, if people read heap berth upon it,
who's going to enjoy it? Who's the sort of ideal
reader in your opinion?
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Well, I don't know. See, it's a funny. I would
initially say queer people, because it's a lot about the
queer experience. However, because it's set in the mid sixties,
I've had some which I've never had really before. I've
had quite a few older straight men say that they've
really enjoyed it because it reminds them of like when
(47:29):
they were young, and there's two men in it, and
it explores like different versions of masculinity, and so yeah,
I've been pleasantly surprised at this new demographic that I've reached.
So maybe queer people.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Nice. Chris, there was a question earlier on I wanted
to put up, but I forgot. So this is from
chrisp plat which authors influenced you when you were starting
out and which books made you think I want to
do this when I.
Speaker 4 (47:59):
Was starting out, Like the book that really had a
massive impact on me by Jeffrey Eugenets, and I still
love his writing. I read anything that he writes, but
his was the first, Like that book was the first
one that I thought, oh my god, I want to
do that because it's the way it's written, It's so cool.
(48:21):
I've never written I've never read anything that was cool before.
I think, all through my teens, everything I wrote, I
was just pure copying him. Jeffrey Jenety's that was like
a big one for me and still is nice.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
So, Chloe, when it comes to writing about the queer experience,
then do you feel any sort of external pressure again
about that? Because you know, proportionately to the rest of
the sort of publishing world, even though there's more queer
authors and queer experiences being written about and being published,
(48:54):
is still relatively limited in terms of the scale and size.
So how do you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (49:01):
In general?
Speaker 4 (49:03):
I feel very lucky to be a part of it.
I don't feel pressure because, like I was saying before,
there's no one truth or there's no one true experience
of any and I'm just writing versions of the queer
experience I don't really write anything kind of saying, oh,
(49:25):
someone's going to relate to this, And equally, I don't
write things thinking no one's going to relate to this,
you know, because it's a very like insular, isolated thing
for me when I'm doing it, I don't allow that
like external pressure in. But I am very comforted by
the fact that, like I said, there is no one
queer experience. It's very very nuanced and it's different for everybody,
(49:49):
which is a good thing because if there was more
of a true experience than I'd be cooked. I don't
think i'd be able to write about it.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Brilliant. Hello's got a question, thank you. What's the biggest
thing plot wise you've changed in Edits?
Speaker 4 (50:06):
Oh? I can't say, because he bred upon it. It
is a really hard book to talk about without spoiling it.
It's literally like every sentence is a potential spoiler. So
I can't exactly say. But there was a lot of
different versions of this book, and people took on very
(50:28):
different roles in these different versions. But that's about as
cryptic as I can be. I can't really answer the
question very well.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Nice Well, thank you for that, Hello, brilliant. So we've
got a couple of minutes left. So before we do
wrap things up, where can people find you on social media?
Where can they pick up your books and all of
that good stuff?
Speaker 4 (50:50):
Okay, so on social media, I'm on TikTok and Instagram.
Those are the only ones that I'm on, and I'm
at Chloe Michelle h on both of those. And then
the books you can get them from any indie support
indies like shop local. If it's not in the shop,
just ask and they'll order it in. Because I used
to be a bookseller in an indye and I know
(51:12):
that that's a little hack. If it's not there, just ask.
But also they're in the big shops, They're in Waterstones
and places like that, if that's more convenient.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
See, we always ask, like a Morbige show at Marbage show,
morbid question, which is, if you're on your deathbed and
you're looking back at your right and career, what is success?
Speaker 1 (51:30):
What does that look like to you?
Speaker 3 (51:32):
I'm going to change it a little bit and ask
you what do you think you're writing?
Speaker 2 (51:37):
The legacy will be.
Speaker 4 (51:39):
Ooh oh, I don't know about that. My writing legacy.
I think I I really have enjoyed writing about rural queerness,
and I think it's something that we don't see an
awful lot of. It's queerness is more often depicted in
(52:01):
urban spaces, certainly not in places like rural Ireland. We
don't see an awful lot of that. So I think
maybe for writing about that potentially, although I've never considered that,
So You're you're making me freak out.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Like existentially tricky question there, Chris.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
If we do go back to the original question and
you're on your deathbed and you're looking back at your
writing career, what would you be happy with?
Speaker 1 (52:28):
What is success? Do you.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Do?
Speaker 4 (52:32):
You know, actually it's kind of the same thing. I
think I would just be really happy for writing about
rural Irish queerness because it's not something that I've seen before.
And I'm I'm proud of myself that I was like,
fuck it, I'm just going to put that out there
(52:53):
because obviously it's quite close to me. It's a bit
close to the bone, you know, but I'm glad I
did it.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
It's it's bit of amazing. Well, Chloe, thank you so
so much for joining us. Apologies for the Internet connections
dropping it out there occasionally, but don't strong stress about it. Yeah,
your story has been amazing and I love I love
how you're writing true to what you know and the
smaller places, like you're talking about the little rural areas
(53:21):
and that's a lot of place. It's a lot of
atmosphere and place that people do not kind of get
to know because they maybe live, like you said, in
the cities or elsewhere. So it's a good insight for
them as well. And you're representing those small communities, so
well done for that. But yeah, you're writing career gone
in two different directions so far. Exciting to see where
it goes. And thank you for sharing your story with us.
Speaker 4 (53:44):
Thank you so much for having me Chris, and Chris,
I really really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Chloe, before we go, we love recommendations on this show,
So could you recommend either an author or a couple
of authors, or a book that you think everyone needs
to read? This one, well, I.
Speaker 4 (54:05):
Would say, like, okay, let's do essential queer reading. The
Color Purple is the best book potentially that I've ever read.
It's so good and I think sometimes it's one that
people glass over because it's like a classic and it's
easy to put it on the long list, but it's
(54:25):
just a flawless book. So that's my recommendation.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Amazing love that perfect. So thank you everybody for tuning
in tonight and for giving your brilliant questions. Please do
hit the like button, leave some comments, and of course
if you want to get in touch with Chloe, we
will leave the socials up where we can, and she
did mention them as well, so if you're listening back
on the podcast as well, thank you, and Halo I
(54:50):
will drop you an email with Chloe's email and you
two can get connected. But from us, thank you so
much for tuning in, have a great week and a
great weekend. We'll see you next week with another show.
So from us, it's goodbye, Thank you everybody.
Speaker 4 (55:04):
Bye,
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