June 12, 2025 • 51 mins
Psychotherapist and LCSW Vanessa Reiser, shares her powerful personal story of surviving narcissistic abuse and how she helps others break free through her practice. From trauma bonding to radical self-love, Vanessa explains the hidden tactics of manipulation and what true healing looks like. Whether you're recovering from emotional abuse or trying to understand it, this episode offers clarity, compassion, and practical tools.
Follow Vanessa:
Instagram: @vanessareiserlcsw
Buy her book: Narcissistic Abuse - A Therapist’s Guide to Identifying, Escaping, and Healing from Toxic and Manipulative People
Linktree: @vanessareiser
Subscribe to stay tuned!
Connect with us:
Website: www.timfletcher.ca
YouTube (Main): @TimFletcher
YouTube (Podcast): @TimeWithTimPodcast
Instagram: @timfletcherco
Facebook: TimFletcherCo
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Have a question for Tim Fletcher? Submit it here! https://bit.ly/TimewithTimQuestionBox
Intro/Outro Music:
‘Take Your Pick’ by Aaron Lieberman
YouTube Audio Library License - Royalty-Free
Disclaimers:
The Time with Tim Fletcher Podcast is for informational purposes only to provide understanding, learning, and awareness about complex trauma. No information published here can replace professional evaluation, diagnosis, or treatment. If you are in crisis, please contact your local crisis hotline at https://988.ca/, https://988lifeline.org/, dial 988, or call your local emergency services.
Ads in this podcast are automatically placed. While we strive to monitor ad content, we cannot guarantee complete oversight, and advertiser views may not align with our own.
Follow Vanessa:
Instagram: @vanessareiserlcsw
Buy her book: Narcissistic Abuse - A Therapist’s Guide to Identifying, Escaping, and Healing from Toxic and Manipulative People
Linktree: @vanessareiser
Subscribe to stay tuned!
Connect with us:
Website: www.timfletcher.ca
YouTube (Main): @TimFletcher
YouTube (Podcast): @TimeWithTimPodcast
Instagram: @timfletcherco
Facebook: TimFletcherCo
TikTok: @timfletcher_co
Have a question for Tim Fletcher? Submit it here! https://bit.ly/TimewithTimQuestionBox
Intro/Outro Music:
‘Take Your Pick’ by Aaron Lieberman
YouTube Audio Library License - Royalty-Free
Disclaimers:
The Time with Tim Fletcher Podcast is for informational purposes only to provide understanding, learning, and awareness about complex trauma. No information published here can replace professional evaluation, diagnosis, or treatment. If you are in crisis, please contact your local crisis hotline at https://988.ca/, https://988lifeline.org/, dial 988, or call your local emergency services.
Ads in this podcast are automatically placed. While we strive to monitor ad content, we cannot guarantee complete oversight, and advertiser views may not align with our own.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And I thought, oh my god, I was in a cult.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I just was in a cult of one and I
was being manipulated and it was mind control, and it
was Pavlovian and positive reinforcers and all the things that
I learned about at USC, and it was just this click.
I have the chills right now every time I think
about that moment where I realize, like, you don't think
to yourself, I'm going to join a cult. No one
ever says I'm going to be in a cult, and
(00:24):
I was, and it just was a cult of one.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Welcome. I'm Andy Carlson and you're listening to the Time
with Tim podcast. Each episode, we explore the impact of
complex trauma through the personal journeys of our guests. Along
the way, we'll connect with experts and individuals who share
their unique perspectives, insights, and practical tools to help you
(00:48):
on your healing journey. Let's take this time to learn together, everyone,
and welcome back to Time with Tim. Today, Tim and
I are joined by psychotherapist, author, and activist Vanessa Riser
for an important conversation about narcissistic abuse. Vanessa brings both
(01:10):
professional expertise and hard earned personal insight to this topic
and her passion for helping others is contagious. She's a
licensed therapist, the founder of Teletherapist, a survivor of narcissistic abuse,
a long distance runner, and the author of the powerful
new book Narcissistic Abuse. We'll begin by exploring Vanessa's personal story,
(01:31):
then move into a deeper look at the dynamics of narcissism,
how to recognize it, how it impacts us, and what
healing can look like. Vanessa, it's really great to have
you with us. Thanks for being here.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Today, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
And so to start off, we'd love to hear a
bit about your early story. Maybe what were some of
the experiences or dynamics in your childhood that you now
recognize as having shaped your vulnerability to narcissist stick abuse
later in life.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
That's an interesting question.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I mean, I grew up with very little in Rockland County,
New York, which is about twenty two miles north of Manhattan,
up the river. Two younger brothers kind of had this
Irish Catholic ragamuffin childhood, so not a lot of resources,
not a lot of people paying attention to us. We
were kind of left to our own devices latch key
(02:28):
for sure, and I think what that did was breed
within me an interest in advocating for the disenfranchised. So
probably at around thirty eight years old, I decided I
(02:48):
wanted to be a social worker. I wanted to affect change,
and I went to USC and studied community organizing and
social policy. Realized I needed to get a real job
because I wasn't going to be working on a political campaign.
Those were kind of like hard gigs to get. So
I became a psychotherapist and I really love, you know,
(03:13):
all of the pieces of being a social worker. I
love advocating for people as I do with my runs,
and I love to help them on a micro scale
through my psychotherapy practice. So it sort of checks all
the boxes being a social worker. I get to kind
of rage around issues, but also treat people clinically, and
(03:34):
so it's like I was built for this job. And
then I worked in the Bronx at the High School
of American Studies as a school social worker and at
the Bronx High School of Science as a school social worker,
which were satellite programs from the Jewish Board, So totally
typical New York social worker you know, and the belly
(03:57):
of the beast, sort of working at a tree style
mental health clinic outpatient, seeing everything from you know, gang
bangers to foster children and all of the trauma that
is that you deal with in some of the inner cities.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
And I loved it.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
And then I had a relationship with somebody who was
pathological and it changed my entire life. So I pivoted
and now I service most people who are dealing with
domestic violence issues.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Can you just tell me a little bit about so
you talked about being a latch key kid, Vanessa, Just
what were mom and dad doing? What was what was
your relationship like with them.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Dad was a phone guy, so he worked for the
telephone company for twenty five years until he passed. Mother
is an artists so totally hippie chick, and they were
divorced when I was nine, and maintained a good relationship
(05:13):
with father even though he was living maybe.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Half hour away.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
But yeah, that was something that was challenging. But I
think childhood for us was challenging mostly because of the
lack of resources.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Right, any like going through school, any kind of stuff
that would bullying, any of that that you had to
go through.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, for sure, I was bullied, I would say, probably
because of the lack of resources, and then as a teenager,
I was overweight, so that was something that was really
hard for me. My brother really had it bad though.
He was bullied quite a bit in his youth. But
(06:04):
we definitely had our share of that, and I think,
you know, that is a bigger trauma than.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Most people even realize.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
When people come into my practice and I asked them
if they've experienced trauma, they're oftentimes saying no, and I say, well,
were there any bullying experience? Yeah, but you know, I say, well,
you know this can shape us. I know, specifically for
my brother, well, our last name, my maiden last name
(06:32):
was Ball, like Lucille, and my brother's name is Jeffrey
and it's the German spelling, so it's geo ff and
he teachers would say his name and they would say Goofball,
and they thought they were being funny, and this literally
stayed with him his entire life. And so to your point,
I mean, those things really shape us in our youth.
(06:53):
When you have even things that are maybe well intentioned.
I don't know that the teachers knew that they were
going to be creating this inner dialogue for my brother
that would last a lifetime. But yeah, bullying is a
huge thing that I don't think people really understand.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
It is almost like a big T trauma.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
So yep, and it's become such a normalized thing that
people just think, how can that be a big deal?
As you look back kind of at your early dating relationships,
do you see any indicators at that point that somehow
you were attracted to more narcissistic men.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
No.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I think narcissists cast out a bunch of lines. I
don't know that they have a type. I think their
gauge is does it have a pulse and is it
going to feed me supply? So I think there were
and I think I'm no different than other people in that,
you know, if there's chemistry or if it feels good,
or you know, there wasn't a lot of logical brain
(07:57):
showing up to those experiences. But I don't know that
that's any different from anyone else who's sort of on
autopilot and isn't emotionally intelligent as we most of us
are not in our twenties and thirties yet. So I
think for me it was just kind of giving it
a go in those relationships, and then you know, upon reflection,
(08:19):
now having understood what you know, what's what you know pathologically?
There were a few that I definitely bumped into that
were really really hazardous and sociopathic quite honestly, But had
no idea at the time, right, just.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
The one one other question, just how I would explore
it with somebody, and probably you would too. But so
to me, a young girl coming out of some bullying parents,
divorcing latchkey kid, some overweight stuff. So to me, there's
some shame beliefs starting to develop inside of that girl
(09:00):
boat not being good enough, not being lovable, which would
then potentially make her vulnerable to anybody that gives her
attention that looks very genuine, but it's actually just manipulating her.
Do you see some of that in yourself as you're
(09:20):
coming into your teens mid teens.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, I would say so. I had not developed a
strong inner dialogue, I think, though. I mean to my credit,
I was.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
My father did this thing where I was younger, and
he would whenever I did something really tough at a
girl at a girl at a girl. So I did
have a little bit more backbone. I think than some
because that was something that did stay in my you know, inards.
I could hear him always at a girling, even after
(09:58):
he died. He died when I was eighteen years old,
which is really really hard. But yeah, I think it's
tricky because yes, there were parts of me that were
vulnerable to manipulative people, but there were there were parts
of me too that were really really sturdy, right, And
(10:19):
I think after he died, I became sturdier and sturdier
actually because I wanted to like kind of like make
him proud of me, you know, and stuff like that.
So it's interesting, but I think that I still stayed tough,
Like I think if I weren't as tough as I am,
I probably would have stayed longer. In this one relationship
(10:40):
for sure, was only a year and a half. And
I see so many of my clients spend you know,
decades trying to you know, change their partner, and so
it's interesting. I think there were It's I sort of
vacillate between both versions of myself.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
And that, but I think, as you know, that's part
of the challenge. And as a psychotherapist, it's like people
bring all kinds of different factors from their childhood, some
that make them vulnerable, some that make them strong, and
they're a blend and different events affect them different ways
at different times based on kind of what shows up,
(11:18):
and so it's not as black and white and neat
and tidy as we'd like it to be, but we
still got to wrestle with some of those factors to
really help people gain self awareness and insight into why
they do what they do. So I think when you
hit that pivot point where kind of that social work
(11:41):
in the schools, do I want to help people with
domestic violence? What were the very first kind of lessons
you learned in dealing with people from domestic violence? What
was kind of your learning curve there that they.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Were feeling.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Invalidated There were not enough therapists or people in the
public that really understood what they were enduring.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Because when you're dealing with.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Narcissists, sociopaths or psychopaths, they know how to kiss babies
and stab you in the back, so they know how
to be in control of the optics and the narrative,
and they tend to portray themselves as very philanthropic and
very genuine and they can cry and sort of play
(12:34):
this role, and it's very hard to go up against that,
especially if they've been laying this groundwork or planting the
seeds that you are the crazy one.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
It's high level manipulation.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So they feel like they're not believed, and I think
for them, the idea of not even understanding what.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
They've gone through and being able to process it.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
How can they tell someone else that which they don't
even understand, and then on top of that, convince them
of the you know, unconvincible and so they are really
really in bad shape, especially if they are extricating themselves
from a cult, because they are wickedly outnumbered. So they
(13:18):
have this entire cast of characters that's subscribing to this
optic or narrative, and to go up against that is
extremely challenging and can lead to major issues, including suicide,
because they just cannot manage that. So a lot of
them come to me and there's this feeling of oh
(13:39):
my gosh, you know, Vanessa gets it, because it's like
if you saw Jesus or you know, walk into your
living room, or you saw a UFO. It just feels
like they can't describe this. It's impossible for people to believe.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
So if you can just quickly explain, So you start
with domestic violence, and then you kind of got some
cults people, so narcissistic stuff within cult settings. How did
that broadening into that arena happen?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
That was just an AHA moment I had when I
was talking to Mark Vicente from the Nexium Cult.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Somebody said to me, you have to meet Mark.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
You have to meet Mark, And we did a zoom
and he was in the Nexium Cult in New York
and you can watch that on HBO Max.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
It's a show called The Vow.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And he was describing Keith Ranieri, who famously branded women
with his initials and then ultimately went to jail. And
all of the characteristics of Keith Ranieri were totally familiar
to me because I was in a relationship with, you know,
another Keith Ranieri, and I thought, oh my god, I
was in a cult. I just was in a cult
of one and I was being manipulated and it was
(14:50):
mind control, and it was Pavlovian and positive reinforcers and
all the things that I learned about at USC and
it was just this click. I have the chills right
now every time I think about that moment where I realize,
like you don't think to yourself, I'm going to join
a cult. No one ever says I'm going to be
in a cult, And I was, and it just was
a cult of one. And there is no difference between
(15:12):
that experience and being in a cult of you know,
five ten, five hundred and five million.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
It's really the same tactics are being used.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
I would agree one hundred percent. And I think so
many people that are involved in cultish type religion stuff
don't see the degree of gas lighting, in doctrination, brainwashing, narcissism.
They just think they're following God, and so there's a
(15:41):
deep self delusion or delusion that takes place that is
really hard to kind of break through all of that
because there are just so many defenses built around it.
But I'm glad you made that connection is so important
in my mind, so to me, the gas lighting process
(16:05):
that you're describing, so you begin to be made to
feel crazy that you're not seeing things accurately, that you
can't think for yourself, and when that's your only person
talking to you and you're giving them kind of all
this power in your life, you're believing it and getting
more and more confused, which is then leading to more shame,
(16:27):
I must be. So it's gradually taking its toll. But
it's part of that toll in increasing shame is you
get less and less backbone to stand up for yourself.
So then they finally come to you with almost no
backbone left to stand up for themselves, which is thankfully
something you never lost. You'd still had that backbone. How
(16:52):
do you help them regain a backbone?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I think when people are extricating them from an abusive relationship,
like with an intimate partner, it's easier because what we
need to do is identify who they were prior, so
we just go back to who we are right and
the way we do that is through the five senses.
We kind of want to elicit, you know, this image
(17:18):
of who you were. You can put up pictures, you know,
things that you've experienced. Smells can kind of pull you
into a memory where you felt particularly joyful or empowered.
Taste and touch and all of these things will pull
you out. And there is no difference between that and
(17:39):
extricating somebody from a cult. However, if you are raised
by a narcissist, or you grew up in a cult.
Now we have a big mountain to climb because we
don't even know who we are at that point, right,
So developing an identity is like a huge mountain to climb.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I usually will tell my client.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
That it's an opportunity, that it's exciting, that it's a
blank slate. We get to sort of discover who we are,
what do you enjoy doing. What happens is when you
have a toxic leader, you will base your decisions on
what they want or what they wouldn't want. And both
of those versions are disempowering because you're giving your power away. So,
(18:23):
you know, let's say somebody has extricated themselves from a
cult or a narcissistic parent, and they're going to go
buy a car. You know, they may have this thought,
you know, I can't buy a red car. Mom never
liked red cars, or that's it. I'm going to buy
a red car.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Because you know so.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
But both of those versions are not are giving your
power away, so it's really dialing back. You have to
sort of peel back the onion lats and ask yourselfing
do you even like the red car? Why do you
like the red It's a very time consuming thing, and
it sounds innocuous, but these are empowering moments when people
can actually say, Okay, you know what, I like the
color red, and I'm going to buy this car.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
It's not because of mom liking it or not liking it.
And so all of these things are big challenges and
they sound really, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Kind of silly, and most people have to really take
the time to catch their cognition and say what am
I actually thinking about? So identifying passions stuff like that's
really important in those scenarios.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
But it's a long road, right, So if I could
say that another way, like to me, part of what
you're describing is somebody's in a domestic violent situation. They
get in all their power away, so you want them
to develop autonomy. Leave the relationship. That sounds like a
very simple step. Leave the relationship, think for yourself. But
(19:46):
what you begin to realize is they're incapable of taking
such a big step. So you've got to break it down,
like into a thousand little steps that are doable for them.
And so you're to me describing some of those very
small little steps that are very time consuming. But over time,
there's an accumulation of autonomy and agency that develops until
(20:07):
they're finally able to make that big step. So using
the five senses, identifying passions, identifying all kinds of different interests, beliefs, personality,
give me some other little steps that you would have
people take. And again this is that time consuming process
(20:29):
with a therapist that they're slowly learning to think for themselves.
They're learning to weigh out pros and cons and making decisions.
Can you expand on some of the store I.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Mean, one of the biggest hurdles that they have too
is they are trauma bonded. So what happens in the
cycle of abuse is we have the love bombing, the
devalue and the discard and on the second time it
looks like the makeup session, the tension building, the fallout
the makeup session, And what happens over time is you
develop an addiction to the make up obsession because the
(21:01):
dopamine and the serotonine, everything is flowing.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Thank god, it's okay. And at some point it could.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Even just be the removal of the devaluing, because you're
kind of maybe potentially getting really really abused, and so
at some point, you know, even just the stopping of
that feels like it's you know, like a drug. So
what I have my clients do is develop two lists.
One is things that their abuser has done to them,
(21:28):
and they have to make it robust and fluid, and
it could seem like it's nothing, but every single time
they have a memory of something that's that's gone on
that you know, maybe did make them feel shameful, they
have to put this in the list. It's it's a
really important resource. And then another list of things that
they love about themselves. And that list has to be
not contingent upon how people experience them, so not like caring, loving,
(21:52):
while those are really wonderful characteristics, it needs to be
like creative, funny, smart, so that they can kind of
step into their power. They want, we want them to
feel really good about themselves and they really they need
to sort of shine a light on their abuser. That's
more accurate that this person isn't the deity, that this
person isn't the all knowing, wonderful, you know, charismatic creature
(22:12):
that they've portrayed themselves to be, that they're kind of
you know, this not so ideal entity, but that they
themselves become more empowered and the trauma bond is really
hard to break. It is a drug addiction. I would
definitely liken it to a hardcore drug addiction. Most most
(22:36):
of my clients that are still stuck even know what
it is, and they can't get away from it. It's very,
very hard.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
If I can just kind of say that one other way,
and that would be like, to me, what's happening within
that person is everything is very much olympic brain things.
So they're getting all of these positive feelings and then
they have the fantasies about wow, when we first met,
there was all this love bombing. That was the real them.
Now they're just having a bad day. We can get
(23:06):
back to that, and they get all this false hope.
But it's all limbic brain based on intensity, good feelings,
romanticized ideas, and so all of their thinking is now
emotional reasoning. It's based on how they're feeling, not on facts,
and you're basically let's get to your core text and
(23:26):
look at evidence. Let's look at who you are, Let's
look at who they are. Let's look at a chronological
sequence of how they've treated you and all that's happened.
So they get out of that emotional space where they
can go into this fantasy world and they start looking
at the evidence and make decisions based on that. And
(23:48):
like you said to me, for many people that have
been in their limbic brain, their emotional brain for so long,
to get them to trust their core text power to
their cortex, that's where the war takes place. And because
something in that limbic just feels good that they want
(24:08):
to sometimes how hang on to. So it's realizing this
could take a while.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
And I also think there's a big part of this
where they have to unhand this fantasy around humanity in general.
There's a really bigger component, this idea that people can
be bad. It's really hard, you know for my generation
growing up on Sesame Street, you know, you share and
(24:35):
all that. You know, you sort of have this idea
that people are thinking similarly, but people with pathological disorders
enjoy your suffering, and it's hard for people to understand that.
And I find myself bringing conversations into my sessions around
Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy because they are sort of
unassuming but really ill intentioned, and you know, sort of
(24:58):
so it's really it's an unhanding of humanity being like,
you know, sort of innately good. That is really challenging
for a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Yeah, and I think too like narcissists pathological they play
on our tendency to think the best of people, to
give people another chance. They just play on that. And
so we feel guilty if we're suspicious of anybody because
we've been taught to give people the benefit of the doubt,
(25:28):
and so they're going to misuse that against us. And
it's really developing a wisdom and shrewdness almost that's not
making you like this pessimistic skeptic about everybody, but yet
you're just there's a wise, shrewdness that you have to
develop about humans because there are a ton of unhealthy,
(25:52):
pathological narcissists that don't want.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
To love you.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
They just want to use you and to view you.
So how long is this journey for? And it's hard
to kind of quantify this, but in general, if you
start with a client that's coming out of domestic violence
or cult that was raised with a narcissistic dad or
(26:18):
raised within a cultish religion, how long are you looking
at as far as what this is going to take.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
It's a great question. It's a long journey.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I would say if you don't get a therapist, you're
looking at like four years.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Probably if you do get a therapist, you could cut
it in half.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
It probably takes you about two years to get your
head straight, if you know, if you're doing the work.
The other half is that it's really hard to heal
when you're still in the relationship, so you're sort of
treading water.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Only when you get time and distance will you get clarity.
And that can be you know, really like a disembodiment.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
It can be a free fall at first, like a
rebirth of sorts, because you're going to potentially also have
this aftershock of losing friends and so it's really really
you know hard. You may have lost your career and everything.
So it's a it's a long road to you know,
kind of managing all of that. It is for so
(27:23):
many of my clients of rebirth.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
And I think it's so important to highlight that because
I think a lot of people still kind of are
hoping for this, go to therapy for six six sessions
and I'll be good to go, and they don't realize
how long of a journey this is going to take.
So let me present another scenario. So somebody's in domestic violence,
(27:46):
but they're also in a cult, and they're also in
a very religious family. So now they come along and
they know that they're getting abused there. It's it's a
terrible situation, and they come to you and you begin
to work with them to get them out of that.
But now they've got their religion saying God hates divorce,
(28:08):
God doesn't want you to do this. Then they got
their family going, what's everybody going to think about us
in the church, You're going against God. So they've got
this added.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Your voice.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Versus all these other voices that are reinforcing that they
should stay in this abuse of relationship. How do you
begin to dismantle some of that.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
It's you're the first person who's ever asked me this question,
and it's a really important question.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
I call it the trifecta.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Is when you have the religious upbringing, you have the
narcissistic parent, and then you have the narcissistic partner. And
the reason why this is really challenging is because religion.
It's not that there's anything wrong with religion, but most
religions are priming.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
You for servitude. You know, just believe it no matter
what and have faith no matter what.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
And so what happens in those environments, there's a lot
of predators because they're witnessing that. You know, these people
are going to be easy to groom, They're going to
fall in line, they're going to do all of the things.
I can exploit them and get them to do all
of this stuff. And so it's just chock full predators
in those environments. So the religion itself is not the issue.
(29:22):
It's just that there are people who are going to
exploit those environments, and so it's extremely challenging. That would
be the hardest client that I ever get, because there
are just too many.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Things coming at them.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
If you have somebody who is trying to extricate themselves
from like the Hasidic community, I've had a few of
those where they have to just bail on their own children,
which is really challenging and just kind of cut.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Their arm off, you know, proverbially, and run. So it's
a big ask.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I think that would probably include major major loss.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
They would have to just.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
Run anyway, go through shunning if they ever did leave,
and lose financial resources outside of just their children. So
it's like loss after loss after loss.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, big, big, big, hard thing to do.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Yeah. So many of the clients that we deal with
are coming to begin working on their trauma. They're coming
out of relationships that have been abusive, narcissistic, grew up
with narcissistic parents, all of that. Then they start to
get a bit of recovery under their belt and they're
(30:39):
really growing and healing and doing well. And then all
of a sudden they start to feel an attraction to
somebody and they're falling in love. And the question is,
how do I know whether this is a narcissist again?
So what are some of the red flags that I
should be looking for, the early warning signs that maybe
I'm getting dupe again by another narcissist? How would you
(31:03):
just respond to that?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, this is a question I get all the time.
There are subtle indicators I think, believe it or not.
Somebody who is passive aggressive, I feel like that.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Is a huge red flag.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
So, as a single woman, I am on the dating
apps and I'll see these men will say like fluid
and sarcasm, and I'm swipe left because to me, this
is an emotionally unintelligent character.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Who's going to.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Maybe give jabs and be snarky and be a wise ass,
and I just have I think I'm hilarious, and I
don't need to do that at somebody else's expense.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
So passive aggression for me is you can't do it.
What happens.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
It's sort of like death by a thousand cuts. It's
really insidious.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
It's a slow burn.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
This idea that you're kind of getting devalued slowly over time,
to me, is far more dangerous than actually an acute
tromp or a punch to the face. I'd rather have
that than have this slow burn of as you mentioned earlier,
like you can kind of feel shame or something doesn't
feel right. I mean, I feel like that was a jab,
or you're being a wise guy or something like that.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
So this is a big one.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
If somebody is behaving in public different than they do
behind closed doors, like if they're you know, really really
really charming, and then the door closes and there are
not somebody who's unkind to the weight staff, somebody who
is an empathetic that doesn't seem to have regard for
(32:35):
their fellow human beings, somebody who is disappearing, who practices
the silent treatment and kind of ghosts you for a while,
because that can feel really devaluing somebody who has no boundaries,
who is texting you while you're working, or calling you
while you're working and trying to push through the bathroom door,
(32:56):
or do these things where you're experiencing autonomy.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Maybe they're telling you what to eat, when to eat,
you know, things like that.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
So I would you how would you describe for somebody
that so narcissists are basically emotionally unavailable people. They act
emotionally available, but they're really not. So how would you
help somebody identify that this person is emotionally unavailable?
Speaker 1 (33:25):
I want?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I think one of the things that you can do
is query them around their past experiences. If somebody has
never experienced love or can't identify a character in their
life that they have an affection for or an animal,
narcissists tend to be confused by the concept. If you
ask them if they've ever been in love, they may
(33:48):
even say I don't know. They seem to be able
to fake this, you know, sort of experience. But I'm
all about querying of questions, and you know, I think
it's important for people to be really careful with their
sovereignty because it's a slippery slope if you aren't asking
(34:10):
questions and making assumptions and giving people the benefit of
the doubt. So I think early on you really need
to get into it and not, you know, waste time.
I think it's important to ask questions.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
So if I can just say that a little different
way that to me, many children are conditioned to live
with a narcissist, and basically, you give up your needs,
You follow the other person's lead, let them set the boundaries.
You don't stand up for yourself, don't demand to be
treated with the same respect that they demand to be
(34:43):
treated with, and so when they come into a relationship,
that's their default setting. They just go to I got
to become aware of what you like, what you want,
and put mind aside so that I don't push my
needs and turn you off. And it's what you're saying,
and I agree one hundred percent, is you've got to
come in on day one and say I'm just as
(35:05):
important as you. I'm going to ask questions to find
out about you. That's my right. And if you start
being trying to be humorous with taking little shots at me.
That's disrespect I'm not going to tolerate it. So right
from day one, there's no let them away with stuff
that's disrespectful, and there's no I'm going to not put
(35:29):
myself out there because the danger that comes out of
complex trauma is you learn to survive by making yourself smaller.
And it's realizing I can't begin a relationship by making
myself smaller. I got to come out just as big
as you are. Easier said than done. So how do
(35:49):
you help people have the courage to do that?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Well, I think.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
One of the biggest things that people always ask me
how do I keep them away from me?
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And I always say you can't. They're all around you.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
But to your point, if you stay connected to your friends,
your autonomy, you stay connected to your career, your home,
your finances.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Your hobbies.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
To your point, when you're showing this visual of like,
stay sturdy in who you are. As long as you
always have those things, they will actually organically just sort
of disappear because they're going to recognize that they cannot
groom you. So right out of the gate, if you
stay sturdy in who you are and you maintain autonomy,
that is like kryptonite to the narcissist. They want no
(36:37):
part of this and they will quickly find someone else
to target because they want to groom you.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
This is the whole concept, is to break you down.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
So if you're not breakable and you're going to be
standing strong and asking those questions, you'll notice they will
potentially reveal themselves really quick. They may you say something
unkind before they exit, but okay, what's the investment at
that stage exactly?
Speaker 4 (37:01):
And to me, what you're describing is also if they're
trying to text you all the time while you're working
or call you, just to be able to not just
set a boundary, but enforce it and to say, you
know what, you can text me in the morning and
after work, but not during the day, and if they
violate that, then you confront that and say, hey, I
set this boundary. You're not respecting my boundaries. That's a
(37:23):
lack of respect of me. We've got an issue here.
And again, what you're showing the narcissist is you can't
be groomed here and you're not in that weak category
that they're looking for, and they're just going to lose
interest very quickly. But it takes that courage to stand
up for yourself from the get go.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Yeah, And I think women specifically and young girls are
being kind of raised to kind of give the benefit
of the doubt a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
So I think they have to specifically.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Sort of bump chest, so to speak, and kind of
stand up for themselves in a way that feel really uncomfortable.
When I do the exercise with a lot of my
clients in CBT where I ask them to develop this
list of things they love about themselves. The people who
are codependent and really don't have that sturdy sturdiness, they
tend to struggle with even that right, Like, what do
(38:17):
you like about yourself? Oh?
Speaker 1 (38:18):
I don't know, I'm really caring.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
So a lot of people are really just getting there
at a girl from when they are a kid is
when they fall in line.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
That's their at a girl.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
And I think one of the things we can do
is we need to really instill in our children that autonomy.
You know, wear the different socks to school, Like, good
for you, you're drawing outside of the lines.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Oh, good for you.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
You're questioning authority. This is fantastic. You know, at a girl,
you're doing this, You're standing up for yourself. You are
not falling in line, you are not being the sheep.
And I think those those are really important tools that
we can instill in our children, especially if you are
trying to co parent with an abuser, because they will
(39:01):
need to identify things like facts versus fiction, because they're
going to potentially be getting gas lit. So you really
need them to get sturdy at a young age, and
I think we need to start doing that, developing curriculum
for young children to sort of identify all the things
that we're now talking about today.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
So just to be very fair in our discussion today,
I think many of the listeners are going to say,
you're just picking on men as narcissists and who abuse women,
but we know it goes the other way as well. Absolutely,
can you just speak to.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
That for a little bit. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
I think I get most of the victims of female
narcissists in my practice are actually their daughters. I think
a lot of men are afraid to come out and
describe that they are in a domestic violence scenario.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
So I don't have a lot of those clients.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
But it's not to say that they don't exist, because
I have the daughters of that are coming and and
describing you know, father falls inline father as the enabler.
You know, this has been going on my whole life,
So it absolutely happens in those, you know, environments. I
think that there's just a kind of a stigma that's
attached to that that is unfortunate. But I think in
(40:16):
terms of the power dynamic in a lot of our cultures,
we see, you know, some of the patriarchy still exists,
and so those power dynamics on a macro scale still
have an interplay.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
But for sure, that is absolutely correct.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
You know, you talked about coming out of the relationship
and the addiction, maybe the shunning. Then there's this gas
lighting and so you'll feel some confusion and doubt, and
so a lot of people kind of like making that
initial transition, they're not necessarily feeling or shouting like yippie,
I'm free. Like what are some like reframes that you
(40:53):
can give to just kind of support them, to put
a foundation on them as they're beginning their healing journey.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I think, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, there
this idea that it's an opportunity and that there are
silver linings all around you, like the experience of going
through this. It really does have a flip side to it,
(41:21):
where now if I were to shift perspective for a
lot of my clients and even for myself, now I
feel like I'm so keen on human behavior. I feel
like I'm so aware of what toxicity is, and I
feel like this is a superpower. I don't see it
as a negative. I think to sort of have this,
(41:45):
you know, ignorant sort of perspective and that I had
feels a world away from who I am today. It
feels like there's so many blessings, and there's so many
people in this space that I've locked arms with, like
I mentioned and doctor Rominey and doctor Nadine and all
of the people that I collaborate with that are such
(42:06):
blessings and are such cheerleaders. All of my clients are warriors.
I mean, so many of the people that I communicate with.
Now it feels almost like it's a leveling up. At first,
when it happens, it feels like you're, you know, shivering
alone in the corner, like you can't understand it. But
then when you sort of look at it holistically and
you begin to communicate with others and realize you're not alone.
(42:28):
It feels like it's a like a culture, a group
of people that are have gone through a very specific
trauma that we lean on each other.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
If I can just take what Andy asks, because I
think it's a wonderful question. So what I've seen a
lot is so let me just again use the example
of a woman an abusive relationship gets out of it finally,
and then there is that yippie I got out of it.
I feel free, And then a month later they they're
missing the person and they're thinking of going back. How
(43:04):
do you help them at that very vulnerable point when
the loneliness hits in, when kind of they start second
guessing did I do the right thing? So what I'm
hearing you and I think it's absolutely vital.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
You got to.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
You're breaking one connection from an abusive person. You got
to connect to some safe people and create this surrogate family.
Otherwise your chances of survival go way down. What else
becomes important? Just help them through that did I do
the right thing? Second guessing and missing the person?
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yeah, I think you have to also get into some
radical self love. And it sounds like it's such a
big thing to do. Radical self love?
Speaker 1 (43:49):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Radical self love is like literally light a candle. That's
a radical it's a version of radical self love. Why
because you're taking the time to light this candle for
yourself to sit with this in this moment and be
meditative and not be whirling around.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
You know, doing all the things.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
You know, have a warm meal, pet a dog, get
a weighted blanket, watch a comedy. These are things that
are radical versions of self love. So you really need
to like have a warm bath, but give yourself the
time to do that because that's going to sort of
it works. It's interrelated to this idea that you're worthy
and you need to stay in that space. I think
(44:26):
also going back to that resource that I mentioned, which
is to continue to look at that list of things
that they did to remind yourself. Oftentimes, if we don't
do that, we will forget. And I do that even
in the dating world now is if I start to
see even pink flags, I will chronicle it and I
write it down so that I don't forget and I
don't miss patterned because you make excuses. Then all of
(44:49):
a sudden, and I have other eyes on it too.
My girlfriends have like nine girlfriends who are like, all right,
let's hear what happened on that date? What did we like?
Speaker 1 (44:56):
What did we not like?
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I think really be in that logical space, because you know,
when the dopamine wears off and the drug sort of
hit the road, you want to be left with this
idea of is this as a logical match?
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Is this a partner? That is somebody that I'm going
to actually fit with?
Speaker 2 (45:12):
So you got to get away from the drugged up
brain and you got to have the logical brain has
to show up.
Speaker 4 (45:19):
Yeah. And one thing I would just add to that
would be, to me, part of being a narcissistic relationship
is you're constantly trying to earn love. So I need
you to meet my needs because I don't know how
to meet my own needs. So I got to love
you in order for you to meet my needs. And
so really, what you're saying with radical self love is
(45:41):
you got to learn to meet your own needs. You
got to learn to love yourself. You don't need that person.
You have enough resources develop a relationship with yourself. And that,
to me is quite radical for some people to begin.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
That what love myself? I don't even have a relationship
with myself. I don't like myself. And once you begin
to learn how to meet your own needs in healthy ways,
it just radically shifts kind of your need of having
another person come and rescue you.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
So before we wrap up, would you be willing to
share the story behind you run across New York in
a wedding dress and I understand that I think this
may be your fifth or sixth year.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
So the first year I ran two hundred and eighty
five miles across the state of New York in a
wedding dress to raise awareness for narcissistic abuse. It was
I think eleven days, but I always like to say
I think I could have done it in ten. We
went from Oswego to Manhattan. Absolutely hands down the most
(46:49):
transformative experience of my life because I was doing this
healing thing for myself, but then I was getting, you know,
all of the Atta girls from people who are suffering
silently in the family court system, specifically where they can't
really do that thing, so I was sort of running
for them. And then we traversed New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts,
(47:14):
and this year we're doing Rhode Island, which is only
twenty seven miles, so I'm just going to smoke a
cigarette and fly across that state in one day.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
We have a new initiative.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
I Am going to run around the family court and
hopefully get some press there. But it's been really, really
a tremendous experience, and anybody who wants to join me,
you know, come along.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
It's really fitting, as you were talking about radical self
love earlier, doing this as an act of self love
for yourself, and so this I think this has been
a really good conversation. So before we close, is there
anything you'd like to leave with our listeners, especially those
who are just starting to make sense of their experiences
(48:03):
or maybe taking their first steps toward healing.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah. I think, well, first of all, I believe you.
I think that's important. I think people need to feel believed.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
And there are a ton of us out there that
have gone through it.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
So you know, buddy up to somebody, get involved in,
you know, a group therapy session. Continue to speak out
and be a sponge to the information. There's so much
information thankfully out there now that people can put some
words vernacular behind what they're experiencing. So I think connect
(48:37):
with others.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
I think could be so powerful.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
And finally, is there anything that you're currently working on
that you'd like to share and where could other people
find and follow your work online?
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (48:50):
I mean, we did just publish the book Narcissistic Abuse,
A Therapist Guide to Identifying, Escaping, and Healing from toxic
and Manipulative People, available at hashettbookgroup dot com. You can
find me on Instagram at Vanessa risor LCSW. We do
have the run May thirtieth, and you can donate to
(49:14):
that run at PayPal at Vanessa Riser one. I do
have a nonprofit tellatherapist dot org where we will connect
you to a narcsavvy clinician in your respective state.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
What am I working on?
Speaker 2 (49:28):
I'm working on nothing right now because the book just
came out and I just need I'm doing a little
lighting of the candle, a little jazz music myself to
sort of recover. I'm still doing the podcast and still
seeing my clients, but I think this summer I'm gonna
lounge a bit.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
So that's what I'm working on.
Speaker 3 (49:45):
MMM. I'm glad that you're offering a great role model
of that radical self acceptance, radical self love that you
were talking about so Vanessa and Tim, thank you so
much for such a powerful conversation. So many people carry
the wounds of narcissistic abuse without ever having the language
(50:06):
to name it, and your insights today hopefully will bring
some clarity and compassion. And so Vanessa, we're truly grateful
that you took the time to be here and to
share your wisdom and the hard won truths behind your work.
And to everybody listening, whether you're still in something confusing
and just beginning to find language for your experience or
(50:27):
well into your healing, you're not alone. Once, Vanessa just said,
you're not alone, and you don't have to navigate this
in silence. So thank you for spending the time with
us today.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
Thank you for joining us on the Time with Tim podcast.
If you'd like to share your own experiences or have questions,
feel free to email us at podcasts at Tim Fletcher
dot CAA want to learn more about complex trauma, subscribe
to Tim Fletcher's YouTube channel for past lectures and his
Friday Night Tim Talks. You can also connect with us
(51:04):
on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and TikTok. Looking for more support,
we offer programs and courses to help with healing complex
trauma and recovering from addictions. Visit Tim Fletcher dot ca
to learn more or send us an inquiry. We're here
to support you until we meet again. Take care, and
(51:25):
thank you for letting us be a part of your
healing journey.
And I thought, oh my god, I was in a cult.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I just was in a cult of one and I
was being manipulated and it was mind control, and it
was Pavlovian and positive reinforcers and all the things that
I learned about at USC, and it was just this click.
I have the chills right now every time I think
about that moment where I realize, like, you don't think
to yourself, I'm going to join a cult. No one
ever says I'm going to be in a cult, and
(00:24):
I was, and it just was a cult of one.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Welcome. I'm Andy Carlson and you're listening to the Time
with Tim podcast. Each episode, we explore the impact of
complex trauma through the personal journeys of our guests. Along
the way, we'll connect with experts and individuals who share
their unique perspectives, insights, and practical tools to help you
(00:48):
on your healing journey. Let's take this time to learn together, everyone,
and welcome back to Time with Tim. Today, Tim and
I are joined by psychotherapist, author, and activist Vanessa Riser
for an important conversation about narcissistic abuse. Vanessa brings both
(01:10):
professional expertise and hard earned personal insight to this topic
and her passion for helping others is contagious. She's a
licensed therapist, the founder of Teletherapist, a survivor of narcissistic abuse,
a long distance runner, and the author of the powerful
new book Narcissistic Abuse. We'll begin by exploring Vanessa's personal story,
(01:31):
then move into a deeper look at the dynamics of narcissism,
how to recognize it, how it impacts us, and what
healing can look like. Vanessa, it's really great to have
you with us. Thanks for being here.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Today, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
And so to start off, we'd love to hear a
bit about your early story. Maybe what were some of
the experiences or dynamics in your childhood that you now
recognize as having shaped your vulnerability to narcissist stick abuse
later in life.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
That's an interesting question.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I mean, I grew up with very little in Rockland County,
New York, which is about twenty two miles north of Manhattan,
up the river. Two younger brothers kind of had this
Irish Catholic ragamuffin childhood, so not a lot of resources,
not a lot of people paying attention to us. We
were kind of left to our own devices latch key
(02:28):
for sure, and I think what that did was breed
within me an interest in advocating for the disenfranchised. So
probably at around thirty eight years old, I decided I
(02:48):
wanted to be a social worker. I wanted to affect change,
and I went to USC and studied community organizing and
social policy. Realized I needed to get a real job
because I wasn't going to be working on a political campaign.
Those were kind of like hard gigs to get. So
I became a psychotherapist and I really love, you know,
(03:13):
all of the pieces of being a social worker. I
love advocating for people as I do with my runs,
and I love to help them on a micro scale
through my psychotherapy practice. So it sort of checks all
the boxes being a social worker. I get to kind
of rage around issues, but also treat people clinically, and
(03:34):
so it's like I was built for this job. And
then I worked in the Bronx at the High School
of American Studies as a school social worker and at
the Bronx High School of Science as a school social worker,
which were satellite programs from the Jewish Board, So totally
typical New York social worker you know, and the belly
(03:57):
of the beast, sort of working at a tree style
mental health clinic outpatient, seeing everything from you know, gang
bangers to foster children and all of the trauma that
is that you deal with in some of the inner cities.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
And I loved it.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
And then I had a relationship with somebody who was
pathological and it changed my entire life. So I pivoted
and now I service most people who are dealing with
domestic violence issues.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Can you just tell me a little bit about so
you talked about being a latch key kid, Vanessa, Just
what were mom and dad doing? What was what was
your relationship like with them.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Dad was a phone guy, so he worked for the
telephone company for twenty five years until he passed. Mother
is an artists so totally hippie chick, and they were
divorced when I was nine, and maintained a good relationship
(05:13):
with father even though he was living maybe.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Half hour away.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
But yeah, that was something that was challenging. But I
think childhood for us was challenging mostly because of the
lack of resources.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Right, any like going through school, any kind of stuff
that would bullying, any of that that you had to
go through.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, for sure, I was bullied, I would say, probably
because of the lack of resources, and then as a teenager,
I was overweight, so that was something that was really
hard for me. My brother really had it bad though.
He was bullied quite a bit in his youth. But
(06:04):
we definitely had our share of that, and I think,
you know, that is a bigger trauma than.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Most people even realize.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
When people come into my practice and I asked them
if they've experienced trauma, they're oftentimes saying no, and I say, well,
were there any bullying experience? Yeah, but you know, I say, well,
you know this can shape us. I know, specifically for
my brother, well, our last name, my maiden last name
(06:32):
was Ball, like Lucille, and my brother's name is Jeffrey
and it's the German spelling, so it's geo ff and
he teachers would say his name and they would say Goofball,
and they thought they were being funny, and this literally
stayed with him his entire life. And so to your point,
I mean, those things really shape us in our youth.
(06:53):
When you have even things that are maybe well intentioned.
I don't know that the teachers knew that they were
going to be creating this inner dialogue for my brother
that would last a lifetime. But yeah, bullying is a
huge thing that I don't think people really understand.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
It is almost like a big T trauma.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
So yep, and it's become such a normalized thing that
people just think, how can that be a big deal?
As you look back kind of at your early dating relationships,
do you see any indicators at that point that somehow
you were attracted to more narcissistic men.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
No.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I think narcissists cast out a bunch of lines. I
don't know that they have a type. I think their
gauge is does it have a pulse and is it
going to feed me supply? So I think there were
and I think I'm no different than other people in that,
you know, if there's chemistry or if it feels good,
or you know, there wasn't a lot of logical brain
(07:57):
showing up to those experiences. But I don't know that
that's any different from anyone else who's sort of on
autopilot and isn't emotionally intelligent as we most of us
are not in our twenties and thirties yet. So I
think for me it was just kind of giving it
a go in those relationships, and then you know, upon reflection,
(08:19):
now having understood what you know, what's what you know pathologically?
There were a few that I definitely bumped into that
were really really hazardous and sociopathic quite honestly, But had
no idea at the time, right, just.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
The one one other question, just how I would explore
it with somebody, and probably you would too. But so
to me, a young girl coming out of some bullying parents,
divorcing latchkey kid, some overweight stuff. So to me, there's
some shame beliefs starting to develop inside of that girl
(09:00):
boat not being good enough, not being lovable, which would
then potentially make her vulnerable to anybody that gives her
attention that looks very genuine, but it's actually just manipulating her.
Do you see some of that in yourself as you're
(09:20):
coming into your teens mid teens.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, I would say so. I had not developed a
strong inner dialogue, I think, though. I mean to my credit,
I was.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
My father did this thing where I was younger, and
he would whenever I did something really tough at a
girl at a girl at a girl. So I did
have a little bit more backbone. I think than some
because that was something that did stay in my you know, inards.
I could hear him always at a girling, even after
(09:58):
he died. He died when I was eighteen years old,
which is really really hard. But yeah, I think it's
tricky because yes, there were parts of me that were
vulnerable to manipulative people, but there were there were parts
of me too that were really really sturdy, right, And
(10:19):
I think after he died, I became sturdier and sturdier
actually because I wanted to like kind of like make
him proud of me, you know, and stuff like that.
So it's interesting, but I think that I still stayed tough,
Like I think if I weren't as tough as I am,
I probably would have stayed longer. In this one relationship
(10:40):
for sure, was only a year and a half. And
I see so many of my clients spend you know,
decades trying to you know, change their partner, and so
it's interesting. I think there were It's I sort of
vacillate between both versions of myself.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
And that, but I think, as you know, that's part
of the challenge. And as a psychotherapist, it's like people
bring all kinds of different factors from their childhood, some
that make them vulnerable, some that make them strong, and
they're a blend and different events affect them different ways
at different times based on kind of what shows up,
(11:18):
and so it's not as black and white and neat
and tidy as we'd like it to be, but we
still got to wrestle with some of those factors to
really help people gain self awareness and insight into why
they do what they do. So I think when you
hit that pivot point where kind of that social work
(11:41):
in the schools, do I want to help people with
domestic violence? What were the very first kind of lessons
you learned in dealing with people from domestic violence? What
was kind of your learning curve there that they.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Were feeling.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Invalidated There were not enough therapists or people in the
public that really understood what they were enduring.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Because when you're dealing with.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Narcissists, sociopaths or psychopaths, they know how to kiss babies
and stab you in the back, so they know how
to be in control of the optics and the narrative,
and they tend to portray themselves as very philanthropic and
very genuine and they can cry and sort of play
(12:34):
this role, and it's very hard to go up against that,
especially if they've been laying this groundwork or planting the
seeds that you are the crazy one.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
It's high level manipulation.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So they feel like they're not believed, and I think
for them, the idea of not even understanding what.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
They've gone through and being able to process it.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
How can they tell someone else that which they don't
even understand, and then on top of that, convince them
of the you know, unconvincible and so they are really
really in bad shape, especially if they are extricating themselves
from a cult, because they are wickedly outnumbered. So they
(13:18):
have this entire cast of characters that's subscribing to this
optic or narrative, and to go up against that is
extremely challenging and can lead to major issues, including suicide,
because they just cannot manage that. So a lot of
them come to me and there's this feeling of oh
(13:39):
my gosh, you know, Vanessa gets it, because it's like
if you saw Jesus or you know, walk into your
living room, or you saw a UFO. It just feels
like they can't describe this. It's impossible for people to believe.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
So if you can just quickly explain, So you start
with domestic violence, and then you kind of got some
cults people, so narcissistic stuff within cult settings. How did
that broadening into that arena happen?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
That was just an AHA moment I had when I
was talking to Mark Vicente from the Nexium Cult.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Somebody said to me, you have to meet Mark.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
You have to meet Mark, And we did a zoom
and he was in the Nexium Cult in New York
and you can watch that on HBO Max.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
It's a show called The Vow.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And he was describing Keith Ranieri, who famously branded women
with his initials and then ultimately went to jail. And
all of the characteristics of Keith Ranieri were totally familiar
to me because I was in a relationship with, you know,
another Keith Ranieri, and I thought, oh my god, I
was in a cult. I just was in a cult
of one and I was being manipulated and it was
(14:50):
mind control, and it was Pavlovian and positive reinforcers and
all the things that I learned about at USC and
it was just this click. I have the chills right
now every time I think about that moment where I realize,
like you don't think to yourself, I'm going to join
a cult. No one ever says I'm going to be
in a cult, And I was, and it just was
a cult of one. And there is no difference between
(15:12):
that experience and being in a cult of you know,
five ten, five hundred and five million.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
It's really the same tactics are being used.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
I would agree one hundred percent. And I think so
many people that are involved in cultish type religion stuff
don't see the degree of gas lighting, in doctrination, brainwashing, narcissism.
They just think they're following God, and so there's a
(15:41):
deep self delusion or delusion that takes place that is
really hard to kind of break through all of that
because there are just so many defenses built around it.
But I'm glad you made that connection is so important
in my mind, so to me, the gas lighting process
(16:05):
that you're describing, so you begin to be made to
feel crazy that you're not seeing things accurately, that you
can't think for yourself, and when that's your only person
talking to you and you're giving them kind of all
this power in your life, you're believing it and getting
more and more confused, which is then leading to more shame,
(16:27):
I must be. So it's gradually taking its toll. But
it's part of that toll in increasing shame is you
get less and less backbone to stand up for yourself.
So then they finally come to you with almost no
backbone left to stand up for themselves, which is thankfully
something you never lost. You'd still had that backbone. How
(16:52):
do you help them regain a backbone?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I think when people are extricating them from an abusive relationship,
like with an intimate partner, it's easier because what we
need to do is identify who they were prior, so
we just go back to who we are right and
the way we do that is through the five senses.
We kind of want to elicit, you know, this image
(17:18):
of who you were. You can put up pictures, you know,
things that you've experienced. Smells can kind of pull you
into a memory where you felt particularly joyful or empowered.
Taste and touch and all of these things will pull
you out. And there is no difference between that and
(17:39):
extricating somebody from a cult. However, if you are raised
by a narcissist, or you grew up in a cult.
Now we have a big mountain to climb because we
don't even know who we are at that point, right,
So developing an identity is like a huge mountain to climb.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I usually will tell my client.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
That it's an opportunity, that it's exciting, that it's a
blank slate. We get to sort of discover who we are,
what do you enjoy doing. What happens is when you
have a toxic leader, you will base your decisions on
what they want or what they wouldn't want. And both
of those versions are disempowering because you're giving your power away. So,
(18:23):
you know, let's say somebody has extricated themselves from a
cult or a narcissistic parent, and they're going to go
buy a car. You know, they may have this thought,
you know, I can't buy a red car. Mom never
liked red cars, or that's it. I'm going to buy
a red car.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Because you know so.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
But both of those versions are not are giving your
power away, so it's really dialing back. You have to
sort of peel back the onion lats and ask yourselfing
do you even like the red car? Why do you
like the red It's a very time consuming thing, and
it sounds innocuous, but these are empowering moments when people
can actually say, Okay, you know what, I like the
color red, and I'm going to buy this car.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
It's not because of mom liking it or not liking it.
And so all of these things are big challenges and
they sound really, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Kind of silly, and most people have to really take
the time to catch their cognition and say what am
I actually thinking about? So identifying passions stuff like that's
really important in those scenarios.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
But it's a long road, right, So if I could
say that another way, like to me, part of what
you're describing is somebody's in a domestic violent situation. They
get in all their power away, so you want them
to develop autonomy. Leave the relationship. That sounds like a
very simple step. Leave the relationship, think for yourself. But
(19:46):
what you begin to realize is they're incapable of taking
such a big step. So you've got to break it down,
like into a thousand little steps that are doable for them.
And so you're to me describing some of those very
small little steps that are very time consuming. But over time,
there's an accumulation of autonomy and agency that develops until
(20:07):
they're finally able to make that big step. So using
the five senses, identifying passions, identifying all kinds of different interests, beliefs, personality,
give me some other little steps that you would have
people take. And again this is that time consuming process
(20:29):
with a therapist that they're slowly learning to think for themselves.
They're learning to weigh out pros and cons and making decisions.
Can you expand on some of the store I.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Mean, one of the biggest hurdles that they have too
is they are trauma bonded. So what happens in the
cycle of abuse is we have the love bombing, the
devalue and the discard and on the second time it
looks like the makeup session, the tension building, the fallout
the makeup session, And what happens over time is you
develop an addiction to the make up obsession because the
(21:01):
dopamine and the serotonine, everything is flowing.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Thank god, it's okay. And at some point it could.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Even just be the removal of the devaluing, because you're
kind of maybe potentially getting really really abused, and so
at some point, you know, even just the stopping of
that feels like it's you know, like a drug. So
what I have my clients do is develop two lists.
One is things that their abuser has done to them,
(21:28):
and they have to make it robust and fluid, and
it could seem like it's nothing, but every single time
they have a memory of something that's that's gone on
that you know, maybe did make them feel shameful, they
have to put this in the list. It's it's a
really important resource. And then another list of things that
they love about themselves. And that list has to be
not contingent upon how people experience them, so not like caring, loving,
(21:52):
while those are really wonderful characteristics, it needs to be
like creative, funny, smart, so that they can kind of
step into their power. They want, we want them to
feel really good about themselves and they really they need
to sort of shine a light on their abuser. That's
more accurate that this person isn't the deity, that this
person isn't the all knowing, wonderful, you know, charismatic creature
(22:12):
that they've portrayed themselves to be, that they're kind of
you know, this not so ideal entity, but that they
themselves become more empowered and the trauma bond is really
hard to break. It is a drug addiction. I would
definitely liken it to a hardcore drug addiction. Most most
(22:36):
of my clients that are still stuck even know what
it is, and they can't get away from it. It's very,
very hard.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
If I can just kind of say that one other way,
and that would be like, to me, what's happening within
that person is everything is very much olympic brain things.
So they're getting all of these positive feelings and then
they have the fantasies about wow, when we first met,
there was all this love bombing. That was the real them.
Now they're just having a bad day. We can get
(23:06):
back to that, and they get all this false hope.
But it's all limbic brain based on intensity, good feelings,
romanticized ideas, and so all of their thinking is now
emotional reasoning. It's based on how they're feeling, not on facts,
and you're basically let's get to your core text and
(23:26):
look at evidence. Let's look at who you are, Let's
look at who they are. Let's look at a chronological
sequence of how they've treated you and all that's happened.
So they get out of that emotional space where they
can go into this fantasy world and they start looking
at the evidence and make decisions based on that. And
(23:48):
like you said to me, for many people that have
been in their limbic brain, their emotional brain for so long,
to get them to trust their core text power to
their cortex, that's where the war takes place. And because
something in that limbic just feels good that they want
(24:08):
to sometimes how hang on to. So it's realizing this
could take a while.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
And I also think there's a big part of this
where they have to unhand this fantasy around humanity in general.
There's a really bigger component, this idea that people can
be bad. It's really hard, you know for my generation
growing up on Sesame Street, you know, you share and
(24:35):
all that. You know, you sort of have this idea
that people are thinking similarly, but people with pathological disorders
enjoy your suffering, and it's hard for people to understand that.
And I find myself bringing conversations into my sessions around
Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy because they are sort of
unassuming but really ill intentioned, and you know, sort of
(24:58):
so it's really it's an unhanding of humanity being like,
you know, sort of innately good. That is really challenging
for a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Yeah, and I think too like narcissists pathological they play
on our tendency to think the best of people, to
give people another chance. They just play on that. And
so we feel guilty if we're suspicious of anybody because
we've been taught to give people the benefit of the doubt,
(25:28):
and so they're going to misuse that against us. And
it's really developing a wisdom and shrewdness almost that's not
making you like this pessimistic skeptic about everybody, but yet
you're just there's a wise, shrewdness that you have to
develop about humans because there are a ton of unhealthy,
(25:52):
pathological narcissists that don't want.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
To love you.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
They just want to use you and to view you.
So how long is this journey for? And it's hard
to kind of quantify this, but in general, if you
start with a client that's coming out of domestic violence
or cult that was raised with a narcissistic dad or
(26:18):
raised within a cultish religion, how long are you looking
at as far as what this is going to take.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
It's a great question. It's a long journey.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I would say if you don't get a therapist, you're
looking at like four years.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Probably if you do get a therapist, you could cut
it in half.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
It probably takes you about two years to get your
head straight, if you know, if you're doing the work.
The other half is that it's really hard to heal
when you're still in the relationship, so you're sort of
treading water.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Only when you get time and distance will you get clarity.
And that can be you know, really like a disembodiment.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
It can be a free fall at first, like a
rebirth of sorts, because you're going to potentially also have
this aftershock of losing friends and so it's really really
you know hard. You may have lost your career and everything.
So it's a it's a long road to you know,
kind of managing all of that. It is for so
(27:23):
many of my clients of rebirth.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
And I think it's so important to highlight that because
I think a lot of people still kind of are
hoping for this, go to therapy for six six sessions
and I'll be good to go, and they don't realize
how long of a journey this is going to take.
So let me present another scenario. So somebody's in domestic violence,
(27:46):
but they're also in a cult, and they're also in
a very religious family. So now they come along and
they know that they're getting abused there. It's it's a
terrible situation, and they come to you and you begin
to work with them to get them out of that.
But now they've got their religion saying God hates divorce,
(28:08):
God doesn't want you to do this. Then they got
their family going, what's everybody going to think about us
in the church, You're going against God. So they've got
this added.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Your voice.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Versus all these other voices that are reinforcing that they
should stay in this abuse of relationship. How do you
begin to dismantle some of that.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
It's you're the first person who's ever asked me this question,
and it's a really important question.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
I call it the trifecta.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Is when you have the religious upbringing, you have the
narcissistic parent, and then you have the narcissistic partner. And
the reason why this is really challenging is because religion.
It's not that there's anything wrong with religion, but most
religions are priming.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
You for servitude. You know, just believe it no matter
what and have faith no matter what.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
And so what happens in those environments, there's a lot
of predators because they're witnessing that. You know, these people
are going to be easy to groom, They're going to
fall in line, they're going to do all of the things.
I can exploit them and get them to do all
of this stuff. And so it's just chock full predators
in those environments. So the religion itself is not the issue.
(29:22):
It's just that there are people who are going to
exploit those environments, and so it's extremely challenging. That would
be the hardest client that I ever get, because there
are just too many.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Things coming at them.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
If you have somebody who is trying to extricate themselves
from like the Hasidic community, I've had a few of
those where they have to just bail on their own children,
which is really challenging and just kind of cut.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Their arm off, you know, proverbially, and run. So it's
a big ask.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I think that would probably include major major loss.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
They would have to just.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
Run anyway, go through shunning if they ever did leave,
and lose financial resources outside of just their children. So
it's like loss after loss after loss.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, big, big, big, hard thing to do.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Yeah. So many of the clients that we deal with
are coming to begin working on their trauma. They're coming
out of relationships that have been abusive, narcissistic, grew up
with narcissistic parents, all of that. Then they start to
get a bit of recovery under their belt and they're
(30:39):
really growing and healing and doing well. And then all
of a sudden they start to feel an attraction to
somebody and they're falling in love. And the question is,
how do I know whether this is a narcissist again?
So what are some of the red flags that I
should be looking for, the early warning signs that maybe
I'm getting dupe again by another narcissist? How would you
(31:03):
just respond to that?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, this is a question I get all the time.
There are subtle indicators I think, believe it or not.
Somebody who is passive aggressive, I feel like that.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Is a huge red flag.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
So, as a single woman, I am on the dating
apps and I'll see these men will say like fluid
and sarcasm, and I'm swipe left because to me, this
is an emotionally unintelligent character.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Who's going to.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Maybe give jabs and be snarky and be a wise ass,
and I just have I think I'm hilarious, and I
don't need to do that at somebody else's expense.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
So passive aggression for me is you can't do it.
What happens.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
It's sort of like death by a thousand cuts. It's
really insidious.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
It's a slow burn.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
This idea that you're kind of getting devalued slowly over time,
to me, is far more dangerous than actually an acute
tromp or a punch to the face. I'd rather have
that than have this slow burn of as you mentioned earlier,
like you can kind of feel shame or something doesn't
feel right. I mean, I feel like that was a jab,
or you're being a wise guy or something like that.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
So this is a big one.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
If somebody is behaving in public different than they do
behind closed doors, like if they're you know, really really
really charming, and then the door closes and there are
not somebody who's unkind to the weight staff, somebody who
is an empathetic that doesn't seem to have regard for
(32:35):
their fellow human beings, somebody who is disappearing, who practices
the silent treatment and kind of ghosts you for a while,
because that can feel really devaluing somebody who has no boundaries,
who is texting you while you're working, or calling you
while you're working and trying to push through the bathroom door,
(32:56):
or do these things where you're experiencing autonomy.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Maybe they're telling you what to eat, when to eat,
you know, things like that.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
So I would you how would you describe for somebody
that so narcissists are basically emotionally unavailable people. They act
emotionally available, but they're really not. So how would you
help somebody identify that this person is emotionally unavailable?
Speaker 1 (33:25):
I want?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I think one of the things that you can do
is query them around their past experiences. If somebody has
never experienced love or can't identify a character in their
life that they have an affection for or an animal,
narcissists tend to be confused by the concept. If you
ask them if they've ever been in love, they may
(33:48):
even say I don't know. They seem to be able
to fake this, you know, sort of experience. But I'm
all about querying of questions, and you know, I think
it's important for people to be really careful with their
sovereignty because it's a slippery slope if you aren't asking
(34:10):
questions and making assumptions and giving people the benefit of
the doubt. So I think early on you really need
to get into it and not, you know, waste time.
I think it's important to ask questions.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
So if I can just say that a little different
way that to me, many children are conditioned to live
with a narcissist, and basically, you give up your needs,
You follow the other person's lead, let them set the boundaries.
You don't stand up for yourself, don't demand to be
treated with the same respect that they demand to be
(34:43):
treated with, and so when they come into a relationship,
that's their default setting. They just go to I got
to become aware of what you like, what you want,
and put mind aside so that I don't push my
needs and turn you off. And it's what you're saying,
and I agree one hundred percent, is you've got to
come in on day one and say I'm just as
(35:05):
important as you. I'm going to ask questions to find
out about you. That's my right. And if you start
being trying to be humorous with taking little shots at me.
That's disrespect I'm not going to tolerate it. So right
from day one, there's no let them away with stuff
that's disrespectful, and there's no I'm going to not put
(35:29):
myself out there because the danger that comes out of
complex trauma is you learn to survive by making yourself smaller.
And it's realizing I can't begin a relationship by making
myself smaller. I got to come out just as big
as you are. Easier said than done. So how do
(35:49):
you help people have the courage to do that?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Well, I think.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
One of the biggest things that people always ask me
how do I keep them away from me?
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And I always say you can't. They're all around you.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
But to your point, if you stay connected to your friends,
your autonomy, you stay connected to your career, your home,
your finances.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Your hobbies.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
To your point, when you're showing this visual of like,
stay sturdy in who you are. As long as you
always have those things, they will actually organically just sort
of disappear because they're going to recognize that they cannot
groom you. So right out of the gate, if you
stay sturdy in who you are and you maintain autonomy,
that is like kryptonite to the narcissist. They want no
(36:37):
part of this and they will quickly find someone else
to target because they want to groom you.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
This is the whole concept, is to break you down.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
So if you're not breakable and you're going to be
standing strong and asking those questions, you'll notice they will
potentially reveal themselves really quick. They may you say something
unkind before they exit, but okay, what's the investment at
that stage exactly?
Speaker 4 (37:01):
And to me, what you're describing is also if they're
trying to text you all the time while you're working
or call you, just to be able to not just
set a boundary, but enforce it and to say, you
know what, you can text me in the morning and
after work, but not during the day, and if they
violate that, then you confront that and say, hey, I
set this boundary. You're not respecting my boundaries. That's a
(37:23):
lack of respect of me. We've got an issue here.
And again, what you're showing the narcissist is you can't
be groomed here and you're not in that weak category
that they're looking for, and they're just going to lose
interest very quickly. But it takes that courage to stand
up for yourself from the get go.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Yeah, And I think women specifically and young girls are
being kind of raised to kind of give the benefit
of the doubt a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
So I think they have to specifically.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Sort of bump chest, so to speak, and kind of
stand up for themselves in a way that feel really uncomfortable.
When I do the exercise with a lot of my
clients in CBT where I ask them to develop this
list of things they love about themselves. The people who
are codependent and really don't have that sturdy sturdiness, they
tend to struggle with even that right, Like, what do
(38:17):
you like about yourself? Oh?
Speaker 1 (38:18):
I don't know, I'm really caring.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
So a lot of people are really just getting there
at a girl from when they are a kid is
when they fall in line.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
That's their at a girl.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
And I think one of the things we can do
is we need to really instill in our children that autonomy.
You know, wear the different socks to school, Like, good
for you, you're drawing outside of the lines.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Oh, good for you.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
You're questioning authority. This is fantastic. You know, at a girl,
you're doing this, You're standing up for yourself. You are
not falling in line, you are not being the sheep.
And I think those those are really important tools that
we can instill in our children, especially if you are
trying to co parent with an abuser, because they will
(39:01):
need to identify things like facts versus fiction, because they're
going to potentially be getting gas lit. So you really
need them to get sturdy at a young age, and
I think we need to start doing that, developing curriculum
for young children to sort of identify all the things
that we're now talking about today.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
So just to be very fair in our discussion today,
I think many of the listeners are going to say,
you're just picking on men as narcissists and who abuse women,
but we know it goes the other way as well. Absolutely,
can you just speak to.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
That for a little bit. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
I think I get most of the victims of female
narcissists in my practice are actually their daughters. I think
a lot of men are afraid to come out and
describe that they are in a domestic violence scenario.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
So I don't have a lot of those clients.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
But it's not to say that they don't exist, because
I have the daughters of that are coming and and
describing you know, father falls inline father as the enabler.
You know, this has been going on my whole life,
So it absolutely happens in those, you know, environments. I
think that there's just a kind of a stigma that's
attached to that that is unfortunate. But I think in
(40:16):
terms of the power dynamic in a lot of our cultures,
we see, you know, some of the patriarchy still exists,
and so those power dynamics on a macro scale still
have an interplay.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
But for sure, that is absolutely correct.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
You know, you talked about coming out of the relationship
and the addiction, maybe the shunning. Then there's this gas
lighting and so you'll feel some confusion and doubt, and
so a lot of people kind of like making that
initial transition, they're not necessarily feeling or shouting like yippie,
I'm free. Like what are some like reframes that you
(40:53):
can give to just kind of support them, to put
a foundation on them as they're beginning their healing journey.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I think, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, there
this idea that it's an opportunity and that there are
silver linings all around you, like the experience of going
through this. It really does have a flip side to it,
(41:21):
where now if I were to shift perspective for a
lot of my clients and even for myself, now I
feel like I'm so keen on human behavior. I feel
like I'm so aware of what toxicity is, and I
feel like this is a superpower. I don't see it
as a negative. I think to sort of have this,
(41:45):
you know, ignorant sort of perspective and that I had
feels a world away from who I am today. It
feels like there's so many blessings, and there's so many
people in this space that I've locked arms with, like
I mentioned and doctor Rominey and doctor Nadine and all
of the people that I collaborate with that are such
(42:06):
blessings and are such cheerleaders. All of my clients are warriors.
I mean, so many of the people that I communicate with.
Now it feels almost like it's a leveling up. At first,
when it happens, it feels like you're, you know, shivering
alone in the corner, like you can't understand it. But
then when you sort of look at it holistically and
you begin to communicate with others and realize you're not alone.
(42:28):
It feels like it's a like a culture, a group
of people that are have gone through a very specific
trauma that we lean on each other.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
If I can just take what Andy asks, because I
think it's a wonderful question. So what I've seen a
lot is so let me just again use the example
of a woman an abusive relationship gets out of it finally,
and then there is that yippie I got out of it.
I feel free, And then a month later they they're
missing the person and they're thinking of going back. How
(43:04):
do you help them at that very vulnerable point when
the loneliness hits in, when kind of they start second
guessing did I do the right thing? So what I'm
hearing you and I think it's absolutely vital.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
You got to.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
You're breaking one connection from an abusive person. You got
to connect to some safe people and create this surrogate family.
Otherwise your chances of survival go way down. What else
becomes important? Just help them through that did I do
the right thing? Second guessing and missing the person?
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yeah, I think you have to also get into some
radical self love. And it sounds like it's such a
big thing to do. Radical self love?
Speaker 1 (43:49):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Radical self love is like literally light a candle. That's
a radical it's a version of radical self love. Why
because you're taking the time to light this candle for
yourself to sit with this in this moment and be
meditative and not be whirling around.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
You know, doing all the things.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
You know, have a warm meal, pet a dog, get
a weighted blanket, watch a comedy. These are things that
are radical versions of self love. So you really need
to like have a warm bath, but give yourself the
time to do that because that's going to sort of
it works. It's interrelated to this idea that you're worthy
and you need to stay in that space. I think
(44:26):
also going back to that resource that I mentioned, which
is to continue to look at that list of things
that they did to remind yourself. Oftentimes, if we don't
do that, we will forget. And I do that even
in the dating world now is if I start to
see even pink flags, I will chronicle it and I
write it down so that I don't forget and I
don't miss patterned because you make excuses. Then all of
(44:49):
a sudden, and I have other eyes on it too.
My girlfriends have like nine girlfriends who are like, all right,
let's hear what happened on that date? What did we like?
Speaker 1 (44:56):
What did we not like?
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I think really be in that logical space, because you know,
when the dopamine wears off and the drug sort of
hit the road, you want to be left with this
idea of is this as a logical match?
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Is this a partner? That is somebody that I'm going
to actually fit with?
Speaker 2 (45:12):
So you got to get away from the drugged up
brain and you got to have the logical brain has
to show up.
Speaker 4 (45:19):
Yeah. And one thing I would just add to that
would be, to me, part of being a narcissistic relationship
is you're constantly trying to earn love. So I need
you to meet my needs because I don't know how
to meet my own needs. So I got to love
you in order for you to meet my needs. And
so really, what you're saying with radical self love is
(45:41):
you got to learn to meet your own needs. You
got to learn to love yourself. You don't need that person.
You have enough resources develop a relationship with yourself. And that,
to me is quite radical for some people to begin.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
That what love myself? I don't even have a relationship
with myself. I don't like myself. And once you begin
to learn how to meet your own needs in healthy ways,
it just radically shifts kind of your need of having
another person come and rescue you.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
So before we wrap up, would you be willing to
share the story behind you run across New York in
a wedding dress and I understand that I think this
may be your fifth or sixth year.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
So the first year I ran two hundred and eighty
five miles across the state of New York in a
wedding dress to raise awareness for narcissistic abuse. It was
I think eleven days, but I always like to say
I think I could have done it in ten. We
went from Oswego to Manhattan. Absolutely hands down the most
(46:49):
transformative experience of my life because I was doing this
healing thing for myself, but then I was getting, you know,
all of the Atta girls from people who are suffering
silently in the family court system, specifically where they can't
really do that thing, so I was sort of running
for them. And then we traversed New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts,
(47:14):
and this year we're doing Rhode Island, which is only
twenty seven miles, so I'm just going to smoke a
cigarette and fly across that state in one day.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
We have a new initiative.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
I Am going to run around the family court and
hopefully get some press there. But it's been really, really
a tremendous experience, and anybody who wants to join me,
you know, come along.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
It's really fitting, as you were talking about radical self
love earlier, doing this as an act of self love
for yourself, and so this I think this has been
a really good conversation. So before we close, is there
anything you'd like to leave with our listeners, especially those
who are just starting to make sense of their experiences
(48:03):
or maybe taking their first steps toward healing.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah. I think, well, first of all, I believe you.
I think that's important. I think people need to feel believed.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
And there are a ton of us out there that
have gone through it.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
So you know, buddy up to somebody, get involved in,
you know, a group therapy session. Continue to speak out
and be a sponge to the information. There's so much
information thankfully out there now that people can put some
words vernacular behind what they're experiencing. So I think connect
(48:37):
with others.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
I think could be so powerful.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
And finally, is there anything that you're currently working on
that you'd like to share and where could other people
find and follow your work online?
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (48:50):
I mean, we did just publish the book Narcissistic Abuse,
A Therapist Guide to Identifying, Escaping, and Healing from toxic
and Manipulative People, available at hashettbookgroup dot com. You can
find me on Instagram at Vanessa risor LCSW. We do
have the run May thirtieth, and you can donate to
(49:14):
that run at PayPal at Vanessa Riser one. I do
have a nonprofit tellatherapist dot org where we will connect
you to a narcsavvy clinician in your respective state.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
What am I working on?
Speaker 2 (49:28):
I'm working on nothing right now because the book just
came out and I just need I'm doing a little
lighting of the candle, a little jazz music myself to
sort of recover. I'm still doing the podcast and still
seeing my clients, but I think this summer I'm gonna
lounge a bit.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
So that's what I'm working on.
Speaker 3 (49:45):
MMM. I'm glad that you're offering a great role model
of that radical self acceptance, radical self love that you
were talking about so Vanessa and Tim, thank you so
much for such a powerful conversation. So many people carry
the wounds of narcissistic abuse without ever having the language
(50:06):
to name it, and your insights today hopefully will bring
some clarity and compassion. And so Vanessa, we're truly grateful
that you took the time to be here and to
share your wisdom and the hard won truths behind your work.
And to everybody listening, whether you're still in something confusing
and just beginning to find language for your experience or
(50:27):
well into your healing, you're not alone. Once, Vanessa just said,
you're not alone, and you don't have to navigate this
in silence. So thank you for spending the time with
us today.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
Thank you for joining us on the Time with Tim podcast.
If you'd like to share your own experiences or have questions,
feel free to email us at podcasts at Tim Fletcher
dot CAA want to learn more about complex trauma, subscribe
to Tim Fletcher's YouTube channel for past lectures and his
Friday Night Tim Talks. You can also connect with us
(51:04):
on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and TikTok. Looking for more support,
we offer programs and courses to help with healing complex
trauma and recovering from addictions. Visit Tim Fletcher dot ca
to learn more or send us an inquiry. We're here
to support you until we meet again. Take care, and
(51:25):
thank you for letting us be a part of your
healing journey.
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