S2E5 | Deconstructing Ideals & the "Nice Guy" Syndrome w/ Gabriel

Co-host Andy speaks with Gabriel, a self-described recovering "nice guy", about healing from codependency, reparenting, and shame. They explore how vulnerability, curiosity, and self-compassion support personal growth. Gabriel reflects on German cultural influences on complex trauma, deconstructing ideals, and the importance of inner stability over external validation. This is a grounded and down-to-earth conversation on love, relationships, and the importance of showing up for yourself.

Subscribe to stay tuned!

Connect with us:
Website: www.timfletcher.ca
YouTube (Main): @TimFletcher
YouTube (Podcast): @TimeWithTimPodcast
Instagram: @timfletcherco
Facebook: TimFletcherCo
TikTok: @timfletcher_co

Have a question for Tim Fletcher? Submit it here! https://bit.ly/TimewithTimQuestionBox


Intro/Outro Music:
‘Take Your Pick’ by Aaron Lieberman
YouTube Audio Library License - Royalty-Free


Disclaimers:
The Time with Tim Fletcher Podcast is for informational purposes only to provide understanding, learning, and awareness about complex trauma. No information published here can replace professional evaluation, diagnosis, or treatment. If you are in crisis, please contact your local crisis hotline at https://988.ca/, https://988lifeline.org/, dial 988, or call your local emergency services.

Ads in this podcast are automatically placed. While we strive to monitor ad content, we cannot guarantee complete oversight, and advertiser views may not align with our own.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So what is a nice guy? You could you could
come from two different directions. You could say a nice
guy is basically a male code dependent or you could
also say a male covert narcissist, depending on on how
how severe the disturbance is. But I think most most

(00:22):
most nice guys out there are just are just codependents
and they happen to be men.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome. I'm Andy Carlson and you're listening to the Time
with Tim podcast. Each episode, we explore the impact of
complex trauma through the personal journeys of our guests. Along
the way, we'll connect with experts and individuals who share
their unique perspectives, insights, and practical tools to help you
on your healing journey. Let's take this time to learn

(00:52):
together today, I'm excited to sit down with Gabriel. Gabriel's
from Germany and has been a playwright and a corporate
IT consultant. When his life took a downturn in late
twenty twenty one, he found himself ready to dive into
personal growth. That's when he discovered Tim Fletcher's work and

(01:12):
went through the LIFT program, followed by the Compass Coach
and Facilitator training. He describes himself as a recovering nice
guy and has spent much of his life seeking the
deeper meaning of things. He's currently training in the Neuroeffective
Relational Model NARM as he continues his path towards becoming
a therapist, and together we'll take a look at that

(01:32):
healing model in an upcoming episode. Today, we'll dive into
Gabriel's story, his childhood self improvement journey, relationships, finding Tim
Fletcher's work, and the healing he's experienced along the way.
I think I mentioned this too earlier, but I wanted
to say it again. So there's a group that I
had facilitated that really shared with me that they really

(01:53):
enjoy you. They appreciate your facilitation because of the humor
and the laughter that you bring in. And so I
was wondering if you could share something that recently brought
you joy or laughter.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Oh yeah, I can. What is you know? It's just
a silent kind of joy that that I enjoyed yesterday.
So I'm on the Canary Islands right now. So this
way is the mountain and this way is the ocean.
So I decided to go this way yesterday, just out

(02:27):
of the door uphill, and I found myself in in
a in a see my a forest and the other
half was like meadows with like blossoming blossom, blossoming spring flowers,
and and I was I walked just straight through there

(02:49):
and right up to a canyon, so I was like
he was a forest. I was sitting on a on
a meadow looking in to the abyss and on the
other side of the canyon there was this huge, huge
pine forest and if I turned a little bit, I

(03:10):
could see the ocean. Even so, it was really like,
this is the piece of the cake. This is exactly
where where to be today. And I really I really
enjoyed that. And I enjoyed going for hikes a lot
now and then around two or three pm, sit down

(03:32):
somewhere and take a nap. I'm just a tourist who
walks in there and hopes to find some beauty. That's
what I'm doing. And yeah, that was very enjoyable, if
on some joy.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Since we're a community that's focused on healing from complex trauma,
we're usually not afraid to dive into the deep end
of vulnerability. And so one of the earlier questions I'd
like to ask you here is what's a vulnerability that
you've been feeling or working with today or in the
past few days. And since since I'm springing this on you,

(04:08):
I can go first. Ah, And I like, you know,
so this this morning, I woke up with a lot
of kind of it felt like some sadness or grief,
but also a lot more anxiety than normal. And I
wasn't I wasn't totally sure like why, And then I

(04:29):
thought about so last last evening. I'm not sure if
you're familiar with Betty Martin's work and receiving and giving,
but there's a kind of like this simple intimate like
boundary practice where you you do this game where you're
you're literally just like touching somebody's hand for three minutes
and there's like a giver and a receiver. And what's

(04:53):
interesting is that game is you're trying to be able
to find the boundaries the direction of the gift, but
also finding your own joy and your own pleasure in
doing it. And like it was, it was interesting. We
did three rounds that I noticed a lot of different
things come up. One is just like kind of when

(05:14):
I was just supposed to be sitting there like my
brain at first, like couldn't shut off at all. And
then I also like realized like as I was the
one kind of doing the exploring, Like I had all
of this like fear over consequences at first, but there's
a place like after a couple of rounds where I

(05:34):
got into this, I felt like a five year old
just exploring this my friend's wrist bones. I had like
a lot of this like laughter and joy and was
just giggling, exploring, exploring her wrist bones. And I could
notice even in the tone of my voice, how comfortable
and relaxed I felt. And I think that what I

(05:57):
think is interesting is I think my anxiety is a
result of that, because in my past, when I've had
close kind of like tender intimate experiences, there's usually been
like a blow up soon after that, there's been some
sort of an explosion and something just goes horribly wrong.

(06:19):
And so like my body and getting into this really
safe space, this really kind of tender and five year
old playful space, like my nervous system is kind of
having a counter reaction to that, to that vulnerability, and
so like I know that this is like a part
of a part of healing, of having to move into

(06:41):
that and then feeling the resultant anxiety. I don't know,
it's it's interesting, like anxiety is usually never fun. And
so yeah, so that's just a kind of a recent
vulnerability that I've had. And so I was wondering if
there's something that you've been navigating recently in terms of vulnerabile,

(07:03):
vulnerability or fear, pain or shame a lot.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
I've been dancing around and sitting in the the core
of my codependence. I think. I think the core would
be the fear of being alone or the fear of
being abandoned m hm. And I mean there was some

(07:33):
outer circumstances that were very like poignant and like actually
like pushing me towards that, and and I had and
I had a few moments and in the last few
weeks when I would actually sit down and allow this
to come up, to sit in this pain of really

(07:54):
feeling alone and and and also explore the reaction to it.
I think that's that was that was something that I
discovered there. I'm always asking the clients, Look, how do
you react when you're feel anxious, willing? How do you
react with this? How do you react with that? And
now I'm sitting in it, and I'm also like observing

(08:14):
myself reacting to it, wanting to get out of it,
wanting to get away from it, distracting myself. And yeah,
that was a that was a pretty pretty rough time
I had there because because in a way, nobody could
help me with that, like, Okay, yeah, I have a coach,
I have people I can talk to and so on.
But but the little, the little codependent in me then

(08:37):
would always go like, will you love me? Will you
love me out of that pain? Please? And so so
I needed to actually lean back and kind of activate
some fatherly qualities in me where it would be like
I am here, I'm here, And that really worked for

(09:01):
the first time in my life, and it really helped
staying soft and vulnerable for myself. On the other hand,
I mean, this was not perfect. I didn't do that
do that perfect. And the next moment I was angry
again why is this being done to me? Why is

(09:23):
this person doing this to me? Blah blah blah blah revenge,
And then I could like bring myself back and be like, hey,
I'm here, I'm here. If you don't have to like
be with with this other person, they can take care
of themselves. I'm actually here, Yeah, and I have not

(09:44):
ever before seen how this when only the limbic system
is active, you know, how how distorted, how crazy and
how black and why everything is. Of course I've seen
that I'm doing this, but I have never been like

(10:06):
sitting in it being like whoa, that's that's crazy. You're like,
you're mad right now, and I can't do anything about it.
You just like grab a pillow and.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
Hold on to yourself and hope for the best and
do the breathing exercises and tell yourself that you're there,
and talk to somebody and maybe do a little bit
of a child work and then like.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Calm down a little bit again. And uh, yeah, I
guess that was that was only possible because I'm at
least having the container and the containment, so that's things
like that can happen in me. And then I don't
get lost completely just a little and I'm coming back.

(10:57):
So yeah, there was a pretty rough time being in this,
being in this Okay, brackets making myself feel completely abandoned
and alone.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
So it sounds like they were kind of like waves
of it happening, but that but somehow like you still
had some sort of a centeredness or a groundedness that
you're kind of able to grasp on even in the
midst of that. It's like, it's a really powerful experience
to be able to sit with an emotion like that,

(11:29):
but also to be able to give yourself that kind
of both that gentleness and the nurturing and the guidance.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, the question that came from it is like, it's
something like, where do I get this tender this tenderness
from if I'm not getting it from other humans or
if I'm not trying to get it from other humans,

(11:59):
Because I mean, when we're talking about addictions, my addiction
is humans, so being with people, being around people, and
then also getting away from people again, So if I'm
not playing that game, where do I get this warmth from?

(12:20):
And that was an interesting question to ponder in the
last few weeks.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Well, let me ask you, know, as that's coming up
from inside of you, how are you how are you
finding that? How are you developing that for yourself and
bringing that out inside of you?

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Well, there are a few things that I discovered for
myself also through my training, being aware of the things
happening and acknowledging that they're happening. Creating space for stuff
happening is actually a very good reparenting exercise or activity

(13:06):
more more activity, not even an exercise, it's an activity. Ah,
something's going on. But there is this little meditation that
I'm doing that goes like, uh, it's basically going along
the lines of terra brags rain like oh I'm noticing something.
Ah cool, I'm noticing it. It is there now I

(13:30):
will not push it away, So let's not be in
resistance about it. Let's just like say hello, so hello,
and then can I could I even say yes to it?
Could I say that, yeah, this, this is happening, is happening,
this is now happening. Yeah, okay, could I say yes today? Okay? Cool?
And then something like so what now what? It's like okay,

(13:53):
well what what what are we going to do with this? What?
Maybe does this need something or this just needs space
or does this just need time? And like running through
this like hello, yes, no? What?

Speaker 3 (14:08):
Hello?

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (14:09):
No?

Speaker 1 (14:09):
What? Hello? Yes? Now what? That is actually how I'm
meeting myself. And I had always thought that it would
be that more would be necessary to be close to myself,
you know, but that this kind of an activity is
actually is actually self love. I don't have to say ah,

(14:35):
so oh yeah, Gabriel, Yeah, I like you. Just like
my inner wants to be noticed by whatever monkey mind
or three and a half percent of conscious mind I'm having,
and they want to just like have a connection going on,
and that is most of the time already.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Enough sounds like some of that, you know, that that
kind of that noticing and saying yes and then now
what it sounds like just it sounds really simple, mm hmm.
But like in words, it sounds simple, but it seems
that in practice that would be it's maybe much more difficult.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, I mean there are some more rules. Story is
not allowed, so it can be thoughts, it can be
it can be of course, snippets of story, but or
even believes or whatnot. You can I can even tell myself, Hey,
I'm telling myself the story that blue and black and blue,

(15:38):
and but it's it's not about that. It's more like
I'm in this situation right now, and I'm curious what's
coming up for myself here, Like I'm in this situation
right now, so I'm curious what's coming up. Ah, I'm
looking at you. I like you. We troubleshoot it over

(15:59):
two other meetings and had the chance to get to
know each other. There's something like relaxed in me towards you.
I'm noticing that. Ah, so I'm taking my moment to
notice that. And then I can see, okay, now what

(16:19):
nothing much? That's all right? Then I could like, maybe
maybe something else comes up, maybe a little shame was
ooh you're on a podcast right now, you should say
intelligent things. I can see Okay, this is this is
what I'm bringing up right now. Aha, Hello, And I
could ask what do you need interesting answer or not

(16:43):
for you not to make a fool out of yourself. Yeah,
I'm not gonna promise that. And then I could maybe
because it's so differentiated what came up, I could even
use a little bit of in our parts work and say, hey,
would would you be able to step aside for the

(17:03):
time that we're doing this here so that I can
be in connection with Andy. There could be a constant
flow of things coming up, being welcomed, being asked, okay,
how do we relate today? And then the next thing comes.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
What I'm also hearing is that there's kind of just
a deep the toolbox that you can reach into is
really deep with curiosity, safety, welcoming parts, inquiry, shame, language,
like all sorts of different different approaches to both be

(17:44):
like gentle with yourself but also just to kind of
really be with with what's going on right here in
the moment.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, what I've been thinking about is this word reparenting.
I know we we in this cosmos, we have the
word reparenting. It is very not often used, but for me,
it basically means I am fathering myself. I am giving

(18:13):
to whatever vulnerability is coming up for me. I'm giving
it that contact that I would have liked from my dad.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
H m hm.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
And I think, yeah, and to make it a little
bit bigger, I mean, that's that's exactly what we're doing here.
What what what happens in in the lift program or
what happens in the coaching or some in all these things,
there is a fair share of reparenting happening because I

(18:53):
could not treat myself that way if the people that
I was in contact with in the last four years
or so hadn't leaned in and be my dad or
my mom hero there, and I would have felt, oh,

(19:14):
that was like that was actually like a motherly thing
happening to me, being given to me from the outside,
And now I know, now I have a reference experience.
Now I don't have to get addicted to that. I mean,
that could also happen, but now I have a good reference.
So I didn't get a really good reference when I

(19:36):
was a kid was good enough reference I became a
functional grown up, but this warm motherly energy I didn't
get reference from. So I got that here or there,
And at times it also was highlighted, Hey, this happened
to you right now? How is it to feel that?
How is it to let that in? Is there anything

(19:59):
coming up for you as you're letting that in? So
I could be actually like examining it a little bit closer.
So so let's say what I did not get from
because of developmental or complex trauma. This has been filled up,
But then I also have to have to take responsibility

(20:20):
for doing it for myself.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
Part of part of what you're saying there, and I
think it's so important with that reparenting, is that if
we didn't have that that model for ourselves, you know
that we can still find a model of that, but
often it begins from somebody else. Kind of showing us
that gentle support, that unconditional welcoming and acceptance, and then

(20:48):
when we can attune to that, we slowly begin to
learn to give that to ourselves and all of our parts.
And yeah, absolutely, Yeah. Could I ask kind of kind
of following in this vein you, would you had mentioned
when I first asked for some background on you, you'd mentioned

(21:11):
about reading your first self help book at ten, which
seems pretty pretty young and pretty unique for a kid.
Would you would you be willing to discuss what what
led you to that?

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Well, I, since since I'm not really I don't really
know what went on in the kid, I can I
can only speculate. I can only describe the outer things happening.
I think what happened was, uh that I liked school

(21:48):
and I bloody hated it at the same time. So
I liked being with other kids, and I liked that
the grown ups kind of wanted to teach us things.
But maybe CD. Then I got my first D in

(22:11):
maths and a teacher bullied me, and I think my
reaction was I gotta get better. And it didn't seem
that my idea was I got to get better at math.
My My reaction was, I got to get better at
stuff in general. I got to get better. This self

(22:33):
help book was about learning one of our like we
have this. We had this learning and self help guru lady.
Her name is Vera f Birkeenbiel, and she brought a
lot of neuroscience stuff back from America and made programs
in German. And I got her book that was actually

(22:57):
written in a very simple way, with a lot of
pictures and this and that. So I tried to I
tried to figure out how to how to learn in
a brain friendly way. Brain friendly is the word that
she coined. And and I think that the impulse that
it was was I just got to get to get

(23:19):
better at it, at it all. I just got to
get better at it all, and it would be we
could also expand it like that. But I didn't have
I don't have siblings, so I had a lot of
time on my hand because I had one best friend
and then two more friends. But but I wouldn't like

(23:43):
play with them every day, So I had time to
be alone at home, feel alone and do something.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
Is that kind of is that that feeling that that
need to get better? Is that something that that has
has kind of stayed with you as an undercurrent throughout
your life or is this something that has has come
in has got out.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, it has been something that is very normal for
me to be to be seeking. I call it seeking,
being a seeker mh. And I would also say that
it's a very a very normal thing for for a

(24:32):
portion of German people to to look into the world
and ask themselves, Okay, that that's it? Now? Is that
is that what it's about? Because that that's quite strange.
That's that's a little boring, that's a little I don't know,
dull gray, not interesting. It could be the complex trauma
people of Germany. But I think it's also something that

(24:58):
that is very unique to to Germany or to the
German speaking realm. I haven't seen it so much in
the countries around Germany in Europe. It's very like German
has a very big self help scene, a very big
we want to get better, we want to do more

(25:19):
whatever kind of scene, very big scene where you go
on weekend seminars and and reflect upon yourself or learn
something new. There is a school something like a community
college in almost every town and also the smaller towns

(25:44):
so we have a lot of possibility to accumulate more
knowledge and seek more. And I think I'm one of
those people. I'm just one of those people who are like,
very very curious, but I also have the question was
this it? Like mhm, I go through school, then I study,

(26:06):
and then I do a job, and then and then
I start a family, and that that was it. I
always I always thought that was a little bit strange,
and I never had the answer. So I kept on
seeking and I tried to look under many stones.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, how so to that question of is this it?
Where where are you on that on that journey?

Speaker 1 (26:39):
That's a good question I've been asking myself. I've been
asking myself that I.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
Feel it was a little unfair, but I'm gonna I'm
just gonna throw that out there.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Come on, put your axe on the map. Yeah, where
am I at with the question is is it?

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (27:09):
God, I don't have a good answer for you. I
could just like I could be a little bit intellectual
right now and say, let's pick that sentence apart. Is
this it?

Speaker 3 (27:17):
So?

Speaker 1 (27:18):
What's the it that I'm asking for? What's this it
is that it? Life? Is that it a successful life
or a satisfactory life or life where where I'm content.
I'm seeing right now, I'm seeing right now that it's

(27:39):
a little bit like that poo, because I don't want
to tell a story of redemption. That's what I like.
That was one of my things when I thought about
the Postcard Today podcast today, I really didn't feel like
telling a heroes story. Where is it okay? And I
came back from the shadow lands with the elixir. Now

(27:59):
I'm like spreading it all over the normal people say, Nah,
probably not. I think I'm way more okay with the
fact that that life is an ongoing, fluent process and
if I try to nail it down, ah, I will

(28:22):
ultimately make myself unhappy. So it's it's more like, it's
more like, Aha, it's a small prince. It's got more
principle based Aha. Curious curiosity is good. Aha, that's good.
Like put that in put but put that in the shelf,
like where you can reach it. Okay. The other thing
like okay, like who do you want to be and

(28:43):
where do you want to? Like where do you want
to go? That's that's a good question. Like that keep
that and kipped it also close by you.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
Know you you mentioned earlier kind of getting out of
story is as part of your practice, and and I
feel that a lot of times when we we kind
of go into a story, or we go into like
a fantasy or expectation or you know, something that can

(29:10):
be created in the mind, and then we'll compare it
to reality and feel disappointment. You know in a way
that it's not It's not that like reality itself is
the disappointment. It's that that belief that that story should
be true or should be something else. And I, yeah,

(29:34):
I hear you're saying, is that you're that in there
there's like the curiosity but kind of like peeling off
the layers and you I forget the word you used,
but like either like the process or the journey of
kind of just in a way just kind of like
figuring it out and being being with it more.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah, yeah, I think what you're saying there is it
is really helpful to also answer this where am I
at I'm not yet out of the woods measuring myself
against an ideal, but I'm also seeing what kind of

(30:16):
steps I made in the last twenty years or something,
and what kind of mistakes I needed to make to
understand more about how my life works, and I can
if I measure backwards, I can see that I have

(30:37):
not been declining decaying. There was growth happening. So that
is where I'm at. I'm not out of the woods measuring,
measuring myself against an ideal, but there is also clear
measurable growth. I couldn't facilitate lift group if I hadn't

(31:02):
integrated some of the things that I'm that I was
interested in integrating. So that is where I'm at, and
everything else is kind of up for discussion and for deconstruction.
I'm actually in a moment right now where I'm where

(31:25):
I'm really deconstructing, or like did the last two and
a half years, I have been deconstructing most things. In
all the things that I talked about, I wanted to know, Okay,
if what's the consequence of this, if we do it differently,
what with the consequence of consequence of this? How do

(31:48):
I feel about this? Bringing bringing it up and and
so on. That's a cool ability what I'm seeing right now.
It all. It is also an ability that makes oneself
or myself rather heavy, because if you want to look

(32:09):
behind every curtain, you're busy all the time deconstructing things,
and you're not cooking yourself a nice meal, and you're
also kind of not going on a date, and you're
I don't know, you're not like getting to know people
that might fit into your life, and you're not writing

(32:31):
a book of blog or making YouTube videos. So where
I'm at right now is that I'm getting very interested
in in like stepping back on the stage of the world.
I have been in a cocoon for quite some time now.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, so there's like almost like the kind of the
business of healing has become consumed a lot of the
business a living. And exactly there's this kind of there's
this desire to to return to or two or to

(33:12):
enter coming out of a cocoon. I think is a
great analogy into into the land of the living.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Let me let me ask you know kind of when
you when you mentioned that ideal that there's still is
this is this like is there is there an ideal
for you as like an image in your mind, a
picture in your mind? Is it is it something that's

(33:41):
that's changing as you progress or is it kind of
like an underlying sensation or feeling or belief.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
Well, that is also a good question. But for that
I have to say, well, look, as a codependent, I'm
a chameleon. I can become anything for anyone. I always thought,
why why does nobody ever remember my name or my face?

(34:13):
It makes total sense because it was another face every time.
So that means coming back to your question in a moment.
So that means whenever I change contexts, whenever I change communities,
I become very permeable to the to the ideals that

(34:40):
they're holding up.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
M h.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
So that so so there is not a continuous ideal
that I have been like carrying around with myself, but
but a conglomerate of ideals that I gathered from here
or there. And I can I can include Tim, I

(35:07):
can include that. I can include uh, what is healthy
and that is unhealthy. I can include that. I can
I can see myself reacting to that and constructing something
that would then fit into Tim's cosmos as that's a
healthy guy. So what I'm interested in is too like, Okay,

(35:30):
here's the ideal, and here's Gabriel, and what does he want?
What's important for him? And he can like have a
good jam session with the ideal. But then also like
go away again, this is my life and let's see
if I'm coming from here, what what do I want?

(35:51):
And yeah, so that is that is how I'm kind
of that's that's my current status in how I deconstruct
this ideal business. I hope that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, And so it looks like you're kind of like
look looking into kind of checking with maybe your gut
a little bit. Is that heart we're referencing with it
and your heart? Yeah, and my heart and.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, everything beyond addiction. Let's call it like, let's call
it what it is, because addiction will keep me in
the in this petty wanting, like all all the wantings
I have when I'm like feeding addiction, the stuff is
all very petty. Yeah, I mean my little sugar because

(36:43):
I want to feel good. I don't feel good now, God,
what do I do now, Papa? And and yeah, so
if i'm if I know about all of that, and
I learned about that in Lift, and I'm keep I
keep on learning about that, Like there is a decision

(37:04):
that is bigger than just a little sugar. And if
I stay with that decision, that is like that is
the heart and the gut and the brain, so to say,
it's like, Okay, what do I what do I want?
Like we could even say like where do I want
to win? Like in which area I don't want? Where

(37:24):
do I want to go and start winning there? But
that is what's what's interesting, That's what I'm currently asking myself.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Ah. And as you're as you're describing that, you know,
the the heart and the gut and the brain, Like
to me, there sounds like finding or developing and creating
something that's that's either more stable or at least coming
from the internal rather than as you describe like that

(37:53):
codependent where you know, I mean with a new group
today and now I'm trying to mold myself to to
whatever their idea is, to whatever they want. And so
it starts like there's a there's kind of like a
change of a focus. Like I'm seeing, I'm here two
layers there. One is like a change of focus from
from that outside to within and then that other one

(38:18):
the other thing that I'm kind of hearing it sounds
like there's finding something in a way, like something to
hold on to or something to stand on. M hm,
so that it's not not just kind of changing with
with others expectations exactly.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
But it's it's like getting connection to my soul or
getting connection to the I call it the goodness in me,
and then and and then just to live from there
and know at the same time that I'm a stupid mammal,

(38:57):
so and that that this mammal needs to be managed
here or there, and and like that guide me like
a good father, because there are experiences in my life
that I haven't had that I would like to have.

(39:18):
For example, I would like to be in a good,
loving relationship at one point in the future. So and
then from there, from the goodness in me, guide myself there.
And I think I'm getting ready more and more ready

(39:39):
to not be so hysteric about all of this, but
just like in a calm, consistent and tender way to
go about the things that I want to be going
about in the rest of my time.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Sounds you know, like you're for that, for that relationationship,
finding a place where you're loving yourself differently, that you're
loving yourself in a healthier way, and then choosing then
to enter into a relationship and being in a loving relationship.

(40:17):
From from that standpoint, can I can I take a
quick a little detour here what does it mean to
you to be like a recovering nice guy?

Speaker 1 (40:27):
Like?

Speaker 2 (40:27):
How how how are you shifting that pattern in your life?

Speaker 1 (40:33):
Is it? What is a nice guy basically? And how
does how does a nice guy change? So what is
a nice guy? You could you could come from two
different directions. You could say a nice guy is basically
a male co dependent or you could also say a
male covert narcissist, depending on on how how severe the

(40:59):
disturbance is. But I think most most most nice guys
out there are just are just codependents and they happen
to be men. And so what is a nice guy?
In a nutshell? A nice guy grew up mostly with
his mom, with his dad not in the picture or

(41:22):
not much in the picture. Could be that the parents
were divorced, could be the dad was working a lot,
so so the little boy's focus was mostly on the
woman in the house and she taught him how to
relate to life, how to how to do things, and

(41:43):
and what he kind of learned very early, or say,
what I kind of learned very early so that I
generally don't generalize this. So what I learned relatively early? Oh,
I'm totally dependent on my mom, I better do what
she says, because she gets it's really grumpy if I don't. Then,

(42:05):
so this is the basis. Then I figured out if
I'm friendly and I'm cute, I get from other moms.
I get attention and sweets. So you cannot imagine how
big of a drama it was when I noticed, like
turning from eight to nine, that my whole little body

(42:29):
changed from from cute to not cute anymore. Like I
noticed that, I noticed the reactions. I noticed that there
was something happening. So what did I do? I turned
on the intellectual engine. So then I was somebody who learned, Okay,
you've got to please women. You've got to be cute

(42:50):
if possible, if not, you've got to be smart. So
make me a very gentle person to be around. Uh
it made me so gentle. I wondered why I wasn't
having a puberty. I hadn't wasn't fighting with my parents,

(43:10):
like I wasn't interested in like scratching cars with keys
or whatnot. Like it was all very like like the
English word is vanilla. Everything was vanilla or stratia tella,
I don't know, so so everything was very vanilla and

(43:34):
and in my in my relationships with with with girls
and then subsequently women, it showed itself exactly like that
I showed up in the relationship being a very forthcoming, friendly,
nice guy. I was having this covert contract. That's something
that that codependent males do, like, I will be nice

(43:55):
to you and and in return, you give me your
love euh mm hmmm, so so so. So that's that's
who I was. But there was another side to it.
If I didn't get the love that I wanted, I
got really dissatisfied.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
M hm hmm.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
If I wasn't listened to the way I wanted to
be listened to. If I I wasn't given the amount
of sex that I wanted, for example, because sex that
equaled giving love. If I yeah, if I just didn't
get the things that I expected in return, and uh

(44:40):
and these things accumulated, and at one point I would
then break up, run away, sulk for half a year,
and find another one. So and that pattern repeated again
and again and again. And that's that's something that's something

(45:02):
that I did not see from the inside. I really
needed to be told so that that basically is the
nice guy behavior I want coming into a relationship, and
I'm trying to trade my niceness, my leaning into this

(45:23):
for for a little bit of love, crumbs of love.
I would take crumbs. So and that makes me the
nice guy, very resentful towards relationship partners women in my case.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
Let me ask if I can, if I can kind
of summarize back what I what I heard you say
a little bit is like, so one one thing in
there is like again kind of not not necessarily developing
the love from within exactly, but then using niceness as
a transaction to to retain love from somebody else. And

(46:03):
so there's there's kind of like a little bit of
like a manipulation and that action of it's like the
chameleon nature of it of like kind of changing to
again like the people around you. And then the one
that I you know, this is something that I don't
think i'd realized about codependence until something Tim said six
or nine months ago. But there's that you mentioned the resentment,

(46:28):
and I think like that that resentment, there's this there's
this entitlement in there, and it's like an entitlement that
we're not aware that there's an entitlement, but it's like
if I smile at you. Now you're supposed to smile
at me if I do this for you, now you're
supposed to do this for me, And that it's like, yeah,
instead of kind of supporting ourselves or supporting, you know,

(46:51):
giving something unconditionally, it's there's very much a condition attached
to that exactly kind of that attention or that the
love or what's being given.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Yeah, and that is incredibly how to say that, I mean,
that's amazed or a labyrinthine to to to find your
way through that and to it permeates everything. I can
see it everywhere, and I can't if you know, even

(47:25):
if I try to to like have good boundaries, do
my own thing, not show up for the other so much,
but show up for myself more mm hmm, it's still there.
Then I'm showing up for myself. So the other sees
that I'm showing up for myself, so they can relax

(47:46):
because I'm not doing the codependent thing, and it more
so they love me more.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
My brain is my brain is stuck on that for
a second. That there's like I'm trying to I'm trying
to untang all that.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
The agenda to be loved is so strong that it
will override the best strategy.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
It's it's yeah, it's the same pattern, but almost the
psychologically enlightened version of So, now instead of just directly
being nice to you so you love me, I'm going
to be do something to myself so that I'll be different,
so that you'll like me.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Can I ask?

Speaker 2 (48:27):
I always make a distinction between when I think about nice,
I relate it to like kind of codependence as well,
and I honestly I see this as being a very
much it's it's kind of embedded in our cultures as well.
I think there's a misinterpretation of the Golden rule of

(48:49):
you know, do unto others as you'd have them do
unto you. It's action, mm instead of like the you know,
just really learning to love yourself and then out of
that love for yourself, you'll be able to act with
kindness towards others or set boundaries with them as need be. Yeah, sorry,

(49:15):
I kind of I kind of asked you the question
that I kind of gave a little bit of my own.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
No, I mean that's fine exactly that the Golden rule
is a little bit twisted. I do the giving because
the Golden Rule says so, because you're a good human then,
and good humans should be loved back, Yeah, which I
I kind of like.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
I prefer the alternate variation of it. If it's that
you know, love, love thy neighbor as thyself, which again
I think people interpret in a way where you look
at the first word first, which is that neighbor. But
then there's there's a truth in there of that we
can't love others. We can only love others as much

(50:00):
as we love ourselves, exactly my interpretation of that.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
And and that circles back to what we talked about before.
If you do not know how to love yourself, where
do you go and learn that? Your parents didn't learn it,
they didn't go to parent university, So where where do
you go to learn that? Interesting connections here right now.

(50:28):
So I was talking about this seeking movement that the
Germans have. So we all know that Germany created made
loads of atrocities World War two, the Holocaust, and there

(50:49):
was there was there was a lot of blame on
Germans put on Germans then after and the shame that
came with was never looked at, It was never like
processed in a let's call the therapeutic kind of way.

(51:09):
So these war children got children, and the war war
makes you empty inside. Let's put it like that for simplicity.
So empty people got people to teach them about life,
and they were empty, and they taught them to be empty.

(51:29):
They weren't even not only empty, they got really annoyed
when these kids had needs, like basic developmental needs. So
so another generation grew up super empty. All the traditions,
all the ways that it has been done before was
basically like all of that was bad because that was

(51:50):
Nazi Germany. So so empty people made empty people. And
I'm like, were like fourth, fourth, fifth generation after this,
now some third generation after this, and it's a bunch
of people who just have no clue how to love themselves.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
And us is the generational trauma of the shame.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
Exactly. And now that the question is like what do
you do? Then what do you what to do about that?
And I think you can only like maybe you can
find it in spirituality, but since this all is about
basic mammal needs and basic human development, it's probably only

(52:40):
can only be gotten from other people who know a
little bit more.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Yeah, yeah, I find I'll say to people, you know,
especially when you're kind of in an encounter with someone
complex trauma. This regulation is often contagious, but that you know,
transmitting as we as we talked earlier about kind of

(53:05):
learning that the reparenting from from facilitators and coaches, that
that by them being able to, you know, be with
your whole being, accepting you, seeing you for who you are,
and being able to welcome and embrace you, that that's
I mean, that's really like the only way that we

(53:26):
really learn how to welcome and embrace and see our
whole being exactly.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
And if it's I mean, if it hadn't been for
the people that are that helped me with that, you
no me talking to them and they're like, wow, you're
like putting You're putting yourself through the meat grinder right now?
Do you notice No? I don't. Yeah, well what I do?
And I'm telling you you're putting yourself through the meat grinder.
How is that now that we have like put it

(53:55):
on the table exhausting exactly, it's exhausting and then just
letting leaving that there and say okay, let's stay with
that for a moment, doing something that's really exhausting. How
is it to notice that? And then I usually and
all the clients usually start shaming themselves for doing something

(54:16):
exhausting to them, and then we go notice that, and
then we're back at my two things on the shelf.
That curiosity noticing and acknowledging and asking myself, who where
do I want to go from here? It's a very
helpful thing. And then being contact with somebody else who's like,
I'm at your side right now. I'm not just you know,

(54:39):
I'm not just running you through that format, but I'm
actually here with you, and I know this is hard.
That is I guess how I how I learned that?
That That is love?

Speaker 2 (54:52):
Yeah, it's you know, it's there's there's a like a
new pattern that we just have to learn and just
have to learn. That's not a very loving way to
say it. There's a new pattern that we can learn, ah,
but we like we get that pattern from others. And
I you know, there's something in what you said that

(55:14):
I think is a difficulty with with shame and complex trauma.
You mentioned kind of the and the codependent the nice
about how you know you you you make this change,
but in the end you're still kind of doing the
same transaction but just in a different angle and then
here there's the you know, once we notice the exhaustion

(55:37):
of the shame, our reaction, you know, are the pattern
that we're used to. We use that pattern against the
pattern that we're noticing, and so I feel exhausted because
of the shame, and so then I shame myself for
having felt that shame. It's just that it's kind of
that that the grooves are so well worn on that

(55:59):
that that's our are the fault that we that we
go to even though we recognize it.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
I mean, you could say that what you described here,
this is the biggest trap in the world for us humans,
like shaming ourselves for not being optimal and then shaming
ourselves for that. That's the curse of being aware. And

(56:30):
I think it's also in a sense this is also
an initiation. You know, once we have grown to a
point where we are aware of all of that, it
can't keep on functioning the way it has before. The
moment we can say that's actually exhausting and acknowledge that

(56:54):
something happens in us, we're not that identified with it anymore.
We took a little bit, a little step to the side,
and we're looking at it, and we're looking at ourselves
in that same moment, that's actually relationship to oneself, which
is pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
Even just that awareness and kind of turning that spotlight
of awareness on it starts to change it exactly. I mean,
could I take a little bit of a detour from
this with you?

Speaker 1 (57:26):
Oh? Absolutely, does this detoil bring us back to the
original threat?

Speaker 3 (57:33):
That does not matter?

Speaker 2 (57:34):
No, completely different uh, completely different thread. I wanted to
ask you, you know, well, the next question is going
to be about languages, and so I last year I
spent six months at an addiction center in Costa Rica,
and it was interesting, is my knowledge of Spanish grew

(57:55):
and even working in the complex trauma like learning different
words in Spanish, WHI can change my conception of some
of the words and how I thought about things in
English as well. I'll just give it an example, like
the words trust and confidence are the same word in

(58:15):
Spanish confianza, and so there's like I was able to
resonate with what I felt was like a deeper meaning
kind of by seeing the Latin roots of these of
these English words as they were expressed in Spanish today.
And so that's a little bit of a long lead
into the question. Is so you know, Tim's work has
been translated into German, and so I think you've had

(58:37):
a little bit of a role in that or something,
maybe not a little bit of a role in that,
but a role in that, And so I understand that
that's been deeply meaningful to you, Like, could you tell
me more about the power of learning complex trauma in
your own language?

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Yeah? Yeah, I had had a little bit to do
with that, especially in the point where it gets interesting,
where where I checked the finished videos where Tim dun
actually speaks German, and I also checked the transcript. So
I went through everything twice, and I noticed that first

(59:16):
of all, like going through the transcript, it took me
longer because it was like, oh my god, this like
I here, here, it is in my language. Here. It
touched me a little bit deeper. And I could just
also say like that that the English stuff I could

(59:39):
always distance myself easier from that. It was always a
little bit further away from me, and the German stuff
went went deeper in it touched me emotionally more than
the English stuff. But I can't really say that, Like
I went through it all and then like made I

(01:00:00):
wrote the focus questions in German or something like that.
It was just ah, I had watched the same video
in English the other day because there was a Phase
one meeting, and I like refreshed myself with the video.
And then a week later I listened to it in
German and it had a deeper impact for me. In

(01:00:24):
German it was much clearer that it had something to
do with me. With English, I always had to like,
what did I do when I went through LYFT, Well,
I actually did the focus questions in German. I answered
them in German so that I so that I could

(01:00:44):
stay more connected to it. I knew that back then
it would be not such a good idea to try
it in English. So yeah, I can only recommend if
somebody wants to go through LYFT and wants to wants
to do it in German. Although it's just an a
voice of Tim Fletcher, I think it's worthwhile to do

(01:01:04):
that and then still come to the English groups because
I think it can. It will resonate with you more
and you will like get more clear messages. This one's
about you, this one's about you, and that one's about you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Yeah, I think there you know this is this is
just an example from life. I have a friend who
is he's he's extremely codependent and has a lot of insecurity,
and so he's learned also Spanish as an adult, and
what he noticed is when he's speaking Spanish, he's feels

(01:01:47):
a lot more confident. He's a lot more confident. And
kind of our theory on that is that, you know,
since he learned this language as an adult, he's he's
usually speaking it out of his cortex, like he has
to access his cortex to speak Spanish, whereas when he's thinking, thinking,

(01:02:08):
or speaking in English, it's that place where he went
through the abandoned wounds and the traumas as well, and
so that there's some like he's a different human being
speaking Spanish than he is English.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Yeah, well I would say the same thing for me.
I'm nicer. I'm nicer in English, even nicer.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
H that there's Yeah, it's it's a very interesting you know,
I'm sure there's some sort of researcher theory on that somewhere,
but just kind of a developmental angle of habit. So
to have it in New York, in your language, it
will touch deeper areas and I mean deeper parts than

(01:03:00):
than English. Will could I ask too So are there
any words or concepts in German that you find that
maybe capture something unique about healing or complex trauma that
isn't expressed as well in English. I should I should
have fed you this question beforehand to let you think

(01:03:21):
about it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
I can't really answer. Not that I'm like, like, I
don't know what, what do you mean? An English word
like schadenfloud a German word that works better or doesn't
exist in English, not that I think of. I would
say that Germany is behind in in its recognition of

(01:03:49):
trauma research and it's recognition of the importance of developmental
and complex trauma happening in everyone. So I can what
I can see is that in Germany we still have

(01:04:11):
I mean, we could could say it like that. I mean,
there's so few therapists working for the health insurance, so
so it's hard to get to get therapy. Of course,
you can do it privately, but but it's like it's
it would be it would be so much better if

(01:04:31):
there were more therapists. However, oh man, I'm very dialectic
about this. There is also something cool about Germany's resistance
to trauma because we could, like also we can create
a trauma culture. We can make it all about the

(01:04:53):
traumatized in a child, for lack of another character to
mention here, the traumatized child. And since Germany is so
resilient and they're all in their head there, of course
I'm not interested in this traumatized vulnerable in our part
that might want to express things that are a little

(01:05:17):
bit inconvenient. So on the one hand, it would be
really cool if Germany could do that. On the other hand,
dropping into it too deeply and making a culture out
of that, I think that is also what Germany kind
of smells and doesn't want either. So so yeah, my

(01:05:43):
ideal way to introduce trauma work into Germany would be
a mixture between this mechanistic way of looking at thing
looking at things, Tim is kind of the mechanic of
complex trauma. He's like so good at like pointing out

(01:06:06):
how these structures work and and and what the consequences
are and this and that. So so I think that
would really that, that would really help Germany, and then
introducing a little bit of Germany into that trauma work,
because I mean, there's also the tendency to be overly soft,

(01:06:28):
overly touchy feely, overly hippie overly like indulged with the
in a child and constantly like going being about that
or something like that. So it would be interesting if
Germany came in and also said, hey, but there's also
a point where this is enough, and we want to

(01:06:49):
go about the things that we wanted to do. We
were like, we want to like engineer and an engine here,
so we can have like a fire. I've been to
check in at the beginning of the week how everybody's
weekend was, and please be vulnerable about that, and then
let's get to work again, please. So it would be

(01:07:10):
really interesting if that, if that kind of came together
for Germany. I would like to see that so really.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
Kind of balancing, you know, bringing in some of the healing,
but also kind of goes back to what you were
saying earlier, like finding that way to live your life.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Yeah, respecting, respecting where the healing is coming to. Also
just just also respecting where the healing is coming to.
Nobody should be forced to be healed. I will.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
I don't think anybody can be forced to be healed.
So let me ask you, Gabriel. So I just have
one or two more questions for you then, and so yeah.
What I'd like to ask is, if you could go
back and talk to that ten year old version of
yourself who is picking up a self help book, what

(01:08:12):
would you say to him now? What would you say
to him today?

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
Oh? I would say, hey, come here, sid would you
like to sit? And the like, can you what's important
for the book? About this book for you? And I
would listen to his answer and he would probably say
something like, yeah, I like, I like, I like to
learn easier. I have a hard time learning. And and

(01:08:39):
then I would probably say like, hey, you know what,
I still have a hard time learning. I'm your thirty
seven year old version. Learning from books is just not
our thing. We're not like we like hearing things, we
like experiencing things. I just want to to tell you

(01:09:00):
that does that make it easier? And then maybe also
ask him a little bit like what what what? What
is he missing? And only also suggesting to him what
he's missing. It would be it, Ah'm missing that my
mom takes me and just like goes with me somewhere
and we go to the black forest. Then we go swimming,

(01:09:23):
and we go this and that and we just do
some nice things and I just don't want to sit
at home or at my my friend's places all the time.
I'm a little bit bored, and I could say, hey,
would it Could it be that you're that you want
something like a hawk right now and something like you

(01:09:47):
want to come a little bit closer because you seem
a little bit sad. We could sit there together and
I could say, so, look, not going to change what's
happening to you, but I can tell tell you that
everything's turning out really well. And I know that you
can't tell me right now, but I know that you're
really sad because you want more, want more life in

(01:10:10):
your life. I can see that. I understand that. So
how about you come along and we put a little
bit of life in our lives where we can hear
something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
Really offering, offering him in company and support that friendship.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
That's really beautiful, being the father that he he needs
at that moment. That's that's what I've tried.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Yeah, well, Gabriel, thank you for this conversation. I appreciate
your openness and the way that you do bring curiosity
and laughter to everything that you do, and I look
forward to chatting with you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
MHM. Didn't love that much.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
We didn't have that much, so it was low low laughter.

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):
Hour for you, and my ideal for laughter is not fulfilled.
I'm going to go and I'll shame myself a little.

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
We're gonna have to press it as year I could
have to leave, So we're gonna pressed the pause and
then you get to go laugh laugh by yourself for
a while.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
Well, thank you Andy for your questions and your presence
and for your gentle summaries every time after I stopped rambling.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
I just want to make sure that I'm able to
I want to make sure that I caught that I
caught what you said and understood what you said, and
I appreciated like every everywhere that we that we went
in this and I think we we covered a lot.
And so thanks thanks for sharing your journey, Ah, And

(01:11:57):
I know you know, I think a lot of people
connect with us. So thanks again, Gabriel, Thank you, thank
you for joining us on the Time with Tim podcast.
If you'd like to share your own experiences or have questions,
feel free to email us at Podcasts at Tim Fletcher

(01:12:17):
dot CAA want to learn more about complex trauma, subscribe
to Tim Fletcher's YouTube channel for past lectures and is
Friday Night Tim Talks. You can also connect with us
on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and TikTok. Looking for more support,
We offer programs and courses to help with healing complex

(01:12:38):
trauma and recovering from addictions. Visit Tim Fletcher dot ca
to learn more or send us an inquiry. We're here
to support you until we meet again. Take care and
thank you for letting us be a part of your
healing journey.