S2E9 | Neurodivergence and Healing from Toxic Relationships w/ Núria - Time with Tim Fletcher

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
People will always question your labels, like why do you
need that label?

Speaker 2 (00:04):
You know, like because and sometimes like they won't even
believe it, you know. That's another But it's almost like, well.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Because this label that's validate everything that I've been going
through my life that made me different, that I struggle with,
and I just thought that I was a faulty.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Normal human being.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
But it ends up this label, you know, kind of
explains why I struggle with this.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Welcome.

Speaker 4 (00:28):
I'm Andy Carlson and you're listening to the Time of
Tim podcast. Each episode, we explore the impact of complex
trauma through the personal journeys of our guests. Along the way,
we'll connect with experts and individuals who share their unique perspectives, insights,
and practical tools to help you on your healing journey.

(00:49):
Welcome Today, I'm joined by Nuria, who's from Spain. She
first entered Tim Fletcher's Lift program in twenty twenty four
and recently graduated from the Compass program. Now she is
a coach and a facilitator helping others heal from complex trauma.
Nuria's journey has been one of transformation and discovery. She's

(01:10):
autistic and has ADHD, which has shaped her experience of
trauma healing. Nuria has a deep love for psychology, philosophy,
classic literature, and more recently, spirituality.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
She describes herself.

Speaker 4 (01:23):
As a wounded healer and a work in progress, but
now she's got her own back and that's made all
the difference in her life.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
We'll explore her.

Speaker 4 (01:32):
Unique healing journey and how neurodivergence has influenced her growth. Nuria,
bien venido essun plaser ablar condigo. I look at that.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
Nice, that's about the limit.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
No, no, it isn't.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
We have been speaking in Spanish and you real, you
do real well. But yeah, thank you so much for
that beautiful introduction.

Speaker 5 (01:58):
Yeah, it's been such a journey, right, I just started
with the twelve step recovery thing, and then one thing
kind of like led to another, and yeah, it's kind
of weird to be here right now quite a step.

Speaker 4 (02:16):
Yeah, Yeah, I'm excited to kind of really cover a
lot of your journey today. And I thought that, like
we could start with a couple of just some like
lighthearted questions just to get the conversation going. And so
the first thing I'd like to ask is, you know,
what's one small unexpected joy that you've experienced recently.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
That's a good question.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
I would say that, you know, today I felt like
very low energy, and yet you know, I have the
three dogs, so I.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Need to walk them.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
And sometimes when I am with such low energies, I'm like,
why did I even have dogs? But you know, it's
a sunny day outside, I'm in the middle of the nature,
and it was kind of like it really helps me
to get into that mindfulness thing. It's just you know,
lovely day and it's you know, spring is coming and

(03:15):
the dogs are playing around and it's kind of nice.

Speaker 4 (03:19):
Yeah, I like to like dogs. Nature and walking are
all good, just really good self care activities as well.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Forced self care.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
But even yeah, I think, well that's love. I love dogs.

Speaker 4 (03:32):
I think that's the benefit of dogs, is that taking
that responsibility to do that self.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Care can be so valle And it is so funny
because I remember, I think it was Kim who was
talking about how sometimes you know, we have never experienced
unconditional love and then we have a bet or like
you know, someone who gives us that, and it's like
the first experience.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
That we have with unconditional love. It's kind of it's
just a lovely thing to have.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
You know, like even when you don't even think that
your recovery journey has started, but even little things like
that really contribute.

Speaker 4 (04:11):
So yeah, there can be such a good model for
for and to help us to find it inside of
ourselves as well.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah, I was gonna ask to.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
What's a sensory experience like sound, touch that's especially calming
or overwhelming for you?

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Okay, the first thought that came to my mind was
the overwhelming ones. Obviously, you know, I always hate it
to have my hands kind of like wet or like
oily or you know, right now I do have a
little bit of cream on my hands, and he's like, ugh,
you know, I just I can.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
I can deal with it.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
But there are all the things that I really cannot
deal with just thinking about you know, the first show
that I had as a teacher in an academy like
a you know, private school, and I would be with
the kids, you know, all the noise, all the lights,
it was very bright lit, and then I would come

(05:16):
home and just be like okay, shutters down, you know,
just complete pit dark. I just need to kind of
like recharge and get the rest right I think I'm
also very very sensitive about cold or heat, which might

(05:37):
might be kind of like also intertwined or like related
to the pots bots thing, which is like you get
your heartbeat higher when you get up from a lying
down position. That's something else that I have. So you know,
it's it's really hard sometimes.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
To know what comes from what. But yeah, I would.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Say those two, like just lights, sometimes it can be
so overwhelming, like I just need sometimes to just retreat
myself into a dark place and be there for it.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
Who how kind of when you go to take this
time to decompress, Like how how long does it take
to decompress normally?

Speaker 2 (06:16):
I would say.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Maybe a couple of hours mm hmm, yeah, something like that,
depending on the stimulus as well. Like I remember, you know,
going to the emergency room with my mom because she
had a fall and I and it was a lot
of things, like it wasn't just light, it was also
like the social interaction or like having to be somewhere.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Else than my home.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
But I just, you know, I need it like a
day or something to kind of like go back to
being myself or being able to deal with things.

Speaker 4 (06:52):
Yeah, do you have do you have any sensory experiences
that you find especially pleasurable.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Then I was reading about this just today.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
That people who seek those like different examples because I
always need my mind always needs like a specific examples
to be like, oh.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
I relate with that.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
So one of them was, first of all, the one
that I'm embarrassed about, which is eating very fast, like
it's kind of like, okay, I'm just you know, wh
I get all the food in my mouth. And the
second one was, oh gosh, this trains of thoughts. The
sense of smell, you know, even if it's something kind

(07:38):
of not disgusting, but like I don't know, like the
smell of a dog's mouth, but it's your dog's mouth,
you know, or of a person that you love, like
just or smelling like the I remember this one time
that I went to a psychologists visit with my best
friend and he has like this leather jacket, you know,

(08:04):
and he used to hug me with and so just
I find those smells like so comforting, you know, or
just the smell of someone's perfew or something, or just
you know, things like that.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
M yeah, so a lot of smells. That one's interesting
for me because I think I go I go both
ways on smells, and I probably find if I'm noticing something,
it's it's often more likely that I'm like ooh rather
than oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
And by the way, like it's so funny because again,
I was reading about this today, and there can be
both things that really bother you and things that you
really need that stimulation. So it's kind of like, you know,
contradictory or yeah, it's kind of weird.

Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, interesting, And so you know, so since we're a
company in a community that's focused on healing from complex trauma,
we're often not afraid to dive into the deep end
of vulnerability. And so one of the first questions that
I'd like to ask is, you know, what's a recent
vulnerability that you've been feeling or working with today or

(09:16):
in the past few days.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
And so, since I'm springing in this on you, I'll
go first.

Speaker 4 (09:23):
And yeah, so I had the benefit of I thought
about this like fifteen minutes ago.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
And so one of the things that I've.

Speaker 4 (09:31):
Been doing recently is I've been having little dance parties
in the night, maybe like three or four nights a
week for fifteen or twenty minutes. And so I came
from just being really disconnected from my body, like really
dissociating a lot, kind of being in a free state
all the time. And so I've tried to find ways

(09:55):
to connect with my body, but I've allo so.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
I don't know, I've.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
Always been an overthinker and super codependent, so worried about
what other people think of me, and like I came
from a very judgmental family, so I judge. I judge
positive expressions that other people do, and so like dancing
is one of those really positive expressions, and so that
was something There was never any dance in my home

(10:23):
or in my life, and so it's something like a
year ago, I watched a bunch of videos, like a
dance therapy video followed by a hip hop video, followed
by I work with these these kids and they always
do like a lot of line dances, so I try
to learn some line dances.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
But everything that I did was very I was like
following the.

Speaker 4 (10:46):
Pattern, and it's weird, like just kind of like how
heavy I always feel, but also how much I judge
myself still, and so as I continuing to kind of
with my body and just be in my body and
releasing judgment and releasing shame. I'm just kind of finding

(11:08):
there's more of like a a wiggliness, a lightness, but
there's also it's there's still kind of this disconnect between
there's there's a lot going on in my head, but yeah,
my body has started to find a freedom to just
kind of to jump and shake and move, and yet

(11:32):
my head is still being like, you know, you're stupid,
you look dumb if you're doing this other places. But
so yeah, so I don't know, it's it's something like
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (11:45):
I think there's a lot of joy in both.

Speaker 4 (11:47):
The movement and the expression, and that's something that I've
just never been able to tap into in the past.
And so there's still that some of that fear and
that vulnerability, but it's something I hope to keep to
keep working on.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, And I think it's so liberating when you kind
of like seek to consciously put yourself in those kind
of situations, right because it's not like you're out there
and I don't know, something happens and you have to
do something that you feel a shame, but you're kind
of like going towards it and with these new tools
or this new mindset, right where you are looking for

(12:25):
you know that that critical voice is going to come up. Yeah,
and you know how to deal with it now, Like
it's not like a you know, you don't believe it anymore.

Speaker 4 (12:35):
Yeah, there's a layer that there's like the habit, like
the habits and the patterns that we created with the
shame and the trauma that's inside of us. And so
part of it is just even kind of like try
new things and doing things in a different way to
create new habits and patterns. You know, like my body

(12:57):
just doesn't know has never known how to move like this,
and so to be able to be patient and clumsy
and flopping around a little bit, feeling feeling your body
flop around a little bit in a different way, and
then like you know, to carry on and continue with it.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, it's so beautiful to hear it though, and it's
almost like inspiring because I also have that disconnect with
my mother and even during the program, and you know,
there's all these grounding excessis and like.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Matic you know, like just.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
Feeling your body or body scans where you just focus
like and I don't know, like they always felt really
wrong with me, Like I just you know, maybe I'm
not ready yet to connect with my body.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
Maybe there's too much sport stuff, but yeah, just trying
to find that.

Speaker 4 (13:56):
Yeah, I was gonna like with with that wrong? Was
it like was there any awkwardness? Was there a forcedness?
Was there a shame?

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Like?

Speaker 3 (14:03):
What? What was that wrong?

Speaker 1 (14:06):
First of all, I can really relate with what you
said about, you know, being very much in your head
and even today, like you know, I I everything. It's
so much more interesting in my inner world than on
the outside almost, and especially with the body.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
I think there is a resistance there.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
They're always you know, I was always a clumsy one,
so you know, just and I don't even think that
I have a beet sense, you know, like a I
don't know to feel awkward and weird, and I do
judge myself for it. I compare myself with other people
who have you know, other yeah, all the way of moving,

(14:47):
and it's like so much more natural for them and
for me it's like, no, I prefer to stay here,
not like just you know, like a robot.

Speaker 4 (14:54):
So oh maybe maybe we'll do we'll do we'll do
dance parties.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
We can can kind of get into that embodiment.

Speaker 4 (15:05):
So let me let me ask you, Naria kind of
is there something that you've been navigating recently that's vulnerable
for you, some sort of fear, pain or shame.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
I'm going to tell you the last one, which is
pretty and I mean it is embarrassing, honestly, both because
I'm judging myself and because I'm also like kind of
feeling judged by the outside.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
And especially I feel.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Like, you know, once you've done all this work and
you know, there's something in me that feels like.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Oh, you should know better than this.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
But so, as you know, I moved away from Barcelona
four months ago something like that, and so I am
in this new place and you know, I had moved
precisely because I was kind of like ending up pretty
and healthy relationship that just you know, I knew that

(16:07):
this person couldn't give me what I needed, but I
wasn't able to let go, which is also why I'm
working the steps in the you know, it's law and
sex and love addicts. And now I came here and
I had just one friend, one person that I knew,
and I was like, oh, this is going to be
so great because you know, I'm going to have that

(16:27):
friend that.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Like I've really struggled with friendships, especially in person, because
you know, one thing is even that. But okay, so
basically I just came here and.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
I kind of like gave in to have something more
than friendship. Right. It became quickly physical as well, and
I was like, I think at this point.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
I'm fine because I've worked so much and.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
I can recognize the patterns or I can you know,
I have people that are keeping me accomunortable or that
I have their support. So I'm not going to become
so dependent on one person because before that used to be.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
I just know the one and he's going to meet
all my needs and it's.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
Gonna be you know, it's just gonna save me for
everything like depression.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
I'm not gonna you know.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
And I really feel like that when I'm with someone,
like just somehow it's a quick fix, real like just
I stop being fearful. They kind of like take me out.
I feel kind of like taking care of maybe what
I didn't feel as a child.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
I don't know, but it's this almost you know, just Okay,
now I'm fine.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
You know, why was I worried about.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
And so came here.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
This thing happened. I've been talking to my coach about it.
I've been, you know, so I've been.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
I've been forced to talk about it, and like, see
this thing, and I still like to myself about.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
It, you know, I kind of I was like, no,
but this person, you know, they're interested in me as
a person, and I'm interested in them as a person
because the friendship is the first thing, and we're really
honest with each other. And he was being really honest, like,
you know, he was saying I don't want a relationship,

(18:20):
and I was taking a like, oh.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
You're just traumatized, you know what I mean, Like it's
just I know you don't mean it you want a
relationship with me. And also like at first it was
almost like, yeah, I don't think I'm ready either, So
you know, I was kind of okay with it.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
And then obviously like the more time that you see
that person, the more you feel for them. And and
so there were a few things that I knew that
we were incompatible, so I had already brought up these
little things. And also like the fact that he would

(18:58):
never ask me any personal questions kind of like just
he was very much into the monologue, and that might
be unfair because it's not one hundred percent true, but
you know, ninety percent monologue and then you know, interested
in little areas.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
So I knew it wasn't the.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Right person, and yet I just you know, kept going
not going back, but just you know, until the point
that I was just complaining so much about you know,
I want a partner, and I want someone who can
commit and who can be affectionate and who can you know,
like now bringing up my needs for the first time,
by the way, so I want to say that that's

(19:37):
like a step forward, like.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
In the right direction.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
But yeah, it was just really tough to get to
that point where it's like, yeah, he's not the right person,
might also not be the right moment for me to
be with anybody.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
So that was fu you know, vulnerable.

Speaker 4 (19:56):
Situation, like trusting your own needs and your gut. At
some point, like you mentioned like that there's this this
kind of like big lie. You know, you're you're aware
of this lie, Like what do you know kind of
like what underpins what underlies that lie? For you?

Speaker 1 (20:21):
I think it's just that huge need of getting that
laft right, like finally being seen and being valued and
like having someone that supports you.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
But It's really weird because right now it's the first
time in my life that I have such a great
support network.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
You know, from all the people that I've met in
LYFT we keep meeting every Sunday. Then you know, all
the people from Compass, we keep having pure coachings with
each other, so we and people that I've met in
autistic support groups and this and that.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
So it's like I feel value, and I feel seen
and I feel validated.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
So I don't know, there's still something there that keeps
rugging me a little bit.

Speaker 4 (21:09):
That's kind of like it's looking for that like some
sort of sense of love or sense of completion coming
from from somebody else rather than than within being able
to feel it or connect.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
To it, yes yourself.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
I think a big part of that is the affection one,
right because I remember this session when Nelson, the one
of the facilitators in the group, told me, Okay, so
how many people do you have around you who can
actually give you a hard or that kind of a thing,
And I was like, well, really isolated. So that probably

(21:47):
does be, you know, play a big role as well.

Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yeah, I mean that that physical connection and that support
so so valuable. Yeah, well, thanks, thanks for sharing that
that story with us. I do want to I want
to ask you to kind of before we go further
into the history, and I want to ask you about
your headspace over the maybe the last two weeks before

(22:17):
and kind of you shared with me a lot about
preparing for this conversation today.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
And I know we had we had a hiccup a
week ago.

Speaker 4 (22:26):
Which is on my on my end, but but kind
of what was what was coming up for you, what
was going on for you as you were as you
were thinking about this conversation that we're having today.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Well, I think you know, one of the issues that
I think I told you about.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Was that, first of all, I'm not used to talking
about myself. Mm hm.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
That was one of the things that I that we're
most useful about the Life program because I had to
talk every single day for about I don't know, eight
or ten minutes myself. So it's something that makes me,
you know, just I'm not one hundred percent yet comfortable
with it. I feel like, why would they even you know,

(23:14):
be interested in knowing my own, you know, my experience,
Like I still.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Have that thing. And then I just felt like.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
There's a part of wanting to help other people, right,
and I'm like, oh my gosh, like all the traumatized
people that no Team Fletcher and that are watching the videos,
and like how many of them might be neurodivergent either
you know, ADHD, autism, you know whatever, you know, gifted,

(23:53):
whatever it is, and like just yeah, wanting to prepare
very well, so that by just speaking about my experience
or you know, even not even about money, stare just.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
Preparing like a tech talk about all the things, you know, all.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
The traits, and so they could see themselves and be
like that's another part of the puzzle, right, like.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Just so yeah, that.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
And just and the other part that I almost forgot
is the thing about my ability to express things and
get thoughts in order. Like that's something I really struggle with.
I try to keep ideas in my head, but it's
almost like jaggling, right, Like there are too many balls

(24:37):
and sometimes they just all fall to the floor because I,
you know, had one of my moments.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
So it's almost like scary to look.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
So yeah, like I feel embarrassed when that happens, even
if it's just like in a conversation with someone. And
then obviously if it happens like in a record format.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
That's even you know, yeah, more uncomfortable.

Speaker 4 (25:00):
So yeah, how how do you how do you manage embarrassment?

Speaker 2 (25:05):
The well, I've been going back and forth. I tried
to just frame it.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
In a different way, which is I want to grow,
Like I've done so many things that I just felt
that scared of doing, Like even.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
Left was.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
You know, just such a challenge, and.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
And opening up for peer coaching with other coaches or
being recorded and then having my supervisor watch and you know,
kind of evaluate those videos like I just and I
could see all the things that I've done.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Wrong, and you know, just knee deep on those little things.
And and I'll do that constantly. That's another you know,
that that part of the critical voice that I I
know that it's there, but sometimes it isn't. So it's
almost like, oh, okay, I think it went away then,
And so every time that it comes up, it's almost
like I'm still here, you know, like just yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
You are finding places where where it's silent or silent quieter.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
It sounds like, yeah, yeah, I am really learning.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
So much abceptance and just being like I think Tim
Fletcher talks about this like just meeting people where they are,
and I'm trying to meet myself where I am, which
is not easy because my expectations are you know, crazy,
but I torture myself with that, and I don't want that.
Like right now, it's almost like what is the most

(26:43):
important thing that I have?

Speaker 2 (26:45):
Just my piece, Like that's what I want.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
And then obviously I want to stretch as much as
I can, but very gradually and very with kindness, with compassion,
with you know, kind of like from a place of
you don't have to do it.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
M hm, you want to do it, that's great. You're
okay as you are.

Speaker 4 (27:06):
Yeah, yeah, you know, you know, in our in the
conversations that you and I have had together, yeah, kind
of I've really appreciated getting to know you more and
getting to hear you story, your story. There's also there's
a part of me that, uh, you know, there's that
that recognizing that the common humanity that we all have.

(27:28):
And so as you've just kind of like naturally spoke
about yourself and what you've gone through, it's interesting how
much like I've seen in my own self, and uh,
there's there's a part of me like I'm really scared
of some of the things that I've learned about myself.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
From from our own conversations.

Speaker 4 (27:50):
But it's also like it's so helpful too, because like
that that auditory processing thing, like not not being able
to kind of really distinguish voice is in a crowded room.
I never knew that that was a thing. I never
knew that that was you know, but has a Wikipedia page.
I can't I don't remember the name of it right now.

(28:13):
But there's there's like just some sense of like always
having been frustrated to be the only person who couldn't
understand other people or understand what was going on, and
then to now have just this sense that there's this
like I struggled to hear multiple sounds at once, I

(28:34):
struggled to distinguish voices when there's multiple sounds at once.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
Yeah, And so.

Speaker 4 (28:39):
I think, you know, I haven't, I haven't thought too
much about it, but kind of in my own journey,
I think that's something where after a lifetime of frustration.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
And anger and kind of beating.

Speaker 4 (28:54):
Myself up for being different from others, it's an area
where I can now kind of shine that light of you,
begin to shine that light of acceptance and just really
just be able to say, huh, be okay.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
And it's really funny because people will always question your labels,
like why.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Do you need that label, you know, like because and
sometimes like they won't even believe it, you know.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
That's another but it's always like.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
Well, because this label that's validate everything that I've been
going through my life that made me different, that I
struggle with and I just thought that I was a faulty,
normal human being, but ends up this label, you know,
kind of explains.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Why I struggle with this. And that's what I hearing
you say.

Speaker 4 (29:38):
Right mmmm hmm, yeah, there's like yeah, it's like it's
that what you're saying kind of like it's less about
the label, but that ability to validate yourself, like, you know,
to just be able to say this is true about me.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
And so even though it's not true about any.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
Of the friends I've known or that we've ever spoken about,
it's always been something that's like kind of a secret,
difficult truth about me.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
And then to be able to just to be able
to validate that.

Speaker 4 (30:05):
And kind of see that I, you know, I reflect
differently than other people.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
And another benefit of that, I feel is that once
you put a name on it, you can also find
all the people that struggle with the same thing, and
at least it makes you feel less.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Lonely or you know kind of like.

Speaker 4 (30:23):
Yeah, mmmmmm, yeah, I can see that. Yeah, And so
I think, I think, to me, that's like one of
what I appreciate about you just sharing who you are
and what you've discovered about yourself and what you've grown,
and just to be able to kind of see how
it glances off of me and in my own journey
there is I do want to ask you kind of

(30:45):
one more thing that's kind of related to this. So
something else that you'd mentioned was that's a naivety and
and so with with sharing, opening up and trusting, and
I was wondering if you would be willing to just
kind of talk about that for a moment.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
It's funny because they all are so embarrassing, but I'm like, yeah,
bring it out, like whatever.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
I really feel like it.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
It's so strange because you know, I have hit knowledge,
I can work anize patterns like I'm not stupid, okay,
but then sometimes I'll just believe like fairy tales that
people tell me, like I'll just you know, someone wants
to manipulate me and they make me feel like I

(31:41):
am loved, but.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
You know, I don't know. I'm just thinking about this
narcissistic partner that I had, but just I don't know,
like I'm really.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Like easily not to treat, but just to believe always
in the goodness of people, you know that they don't
mean it, and to kind of like I think that
it's also like my fun the funds in my head,
like to believe in people's potential more than what their
actions actually show. M h. It's kind of like always

(32:19):
trying to find like the explanation. Oh, but maybe it
was because you know, his parents were really abusive with him,
and now you know he needs to unload that, but
he doesn't know how to do it in any other way.
So that's why he's making you a target and like
blaming you for everything and like shouting at you and
calling you names. And you know he was he was
cheating on so of course he's gonna you know, throw

(32:42):
or protect that fear onto me. But it's like, yeah,
that's you know, the people is showing that the person
is showing you who they are.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Just take them a face value.

Speaker 4 (32:53):
Right, like just yeah, that's I don't know. I find
that that's often like a difficult place to be, is
like you know, trusting somebody's words over their actions, trusting
the idea we have of them or want to have
of them over their actions, over the behaviors, over the reality.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
But then also like.

Speaker 4 (33:19):
I'm not sure, there seemed to be like an edge,
but like a little bit of kind of like a
self gas lighting, like I just.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
I do like and especially like in this last relationship
that I had, he was being very honest from the
very beginning, Like it wasn't him, it was myself that
I was just you know, lying to myself so.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
That I could hang on to that hope ord, you know.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
And so with people, you know, it's not like they
would say I did this because of that, like I
would myself like come to that confusion. Like I don't
know if you've seen Mute and the Beast, but it's.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Kind of like that fantasy thing where you're going to.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Meet the beast, but you're gonna love on them and
they're gonna turn into the beautiful prince that is, you know,
like you're doing it yourself, Like mmm, it can help
until you really recognize it and you.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Yeah, it's hard.

Speaker 4 (34:20):
Yeah, yeah, you know, And I think, I don't know.
I think there's a there's a point that you make
there of like there's a lot of movies that.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
That kind of show.

Speaker 4 (34:33):
Yeah, you run into somebody with rough edges, but that
heart of gold and in the end, you know, that
heart of gold always come You know, if I love
you hard enough, that heart of gold is gonna come
out no matter what, right, And so there's there's kind
of this false Uh, I don't know, as we work
with people in complex trauma, Like the number of people

(34:54):
that I've been working with who are ending relationships are
just ended a relationationship or in a relationship where they're
difficult and unhealthy and their partner is difficult and unhealthy.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
That's not what I don't know.

Speaker 4 (35:11):
That's not what movies have have shown me a reality
at all.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
Yeah. Absolutely, And I think, like you know, becoming educated
and all these subjects as well, because there is all
these ideas right about romantic love or how things look
that don't really correspond with reality. So I don't know,
Like today, for example, like I was listening to the

(35:38):
podcast by Mel Robbins talking about you know, how to
assess whether you know the person that you meet is
the right one, whether to stay with them if something happens.
And like, for example, she was putting the exam the
case of someone who kind of like lets their health go,

(36:00):
and you know, I mean, you want to stay with them,
but you want them to be healthy, and like how
pushing them as well, like it's it actually just creates resistance,
So that's not the way to go. And like they're
all these especially being autistic and you know, not understanding
these social rules or like any of that.

Speaker 4 (36:23):
I think, I think what I heard you saying there
a little bit is like it's like looking out. You know,
we learn how to be social from others, and we're
looking to our environment for learning how to be social.
But there is like a layer of we're kind of
watching movies like these fantasy social engagements that usually don't

(36:50):
most often don't like show real relationships, you know, or
show after the big beautiful wedding, and kind of kind
of trusting and building our own social rules or social
cues off of just off off of our experience, and

(37:10):
our experience being.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
What we've seen.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
And it's also kind of hard to really know how
relationships work because people don't really talk about them honestly.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
You know.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Everybody wants to pretend like everything is great and they
don't have any issues and like it's just perfect for
each other. And I guess like because of the shame
of like, you know, being open about how maybe their
partner has an issue or maybe they just don't see

(37:43):
eye to I in some subject or.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
But that's the reality of it. Though. I feel like
if more people talked about it honestly, you know, our.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Expectations, we're tolign more than you know, we building.

Speaker 4 (37:57):
Their best kind of thing, Yeah, kind of the fear
of the shame or the judgment or other people holding
on or using it against you or right, you know,
even just the I don't know. I came from a
world where people were either all good or all bad.

Speaker 3 (38:16):
Right, and so the second.

Speaker 4 (38:17):
I hear you know, you have this fault, you have
this failure, you have this bad habit, Yeah goodbye, And
so yeah, you have to be you have to be well.
I was gonna say, you have to be afraid of
people like that, but then I think on the other side,
sometimes it's so helpful when people show you who they
are so that you can, yeah, not have them.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
As a close friend.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Absolutely, And I'm sure there are some things that maybe
we judge and don't really hold any importance.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
But then there are some others that, especially.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Basic goodness and like respecting other people and things like that,
Like you just need to really be looking out for
these things because if not, like I don't know, I
feel like you can end up attaching.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
To people who are you know, who can really create
some real damage to you.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
And you know, I'm just thinking about obviously my own experience,
but also like people from left and how sometimes they
will find themselves in this relationships that after they break up,
like it still takes kind of like years to kind
of recover from that gaslighting or so it's like an

(39:36):
important thing to know how to recognize, you know, this
person is healthy or you know, I prefer to you know.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Keep them away from me.

Speaker 4 (39:47):
So yeah, healthy healthy people, finding recognizing healthy people and healthy.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
Relationships is so valuable.

Speaker 4 (39:57):
Yeah, let me let me shift direction just a little
bit here. I want to you know, we mentioned you
just mentioned lyft, and so could you would you be
willing to kind of take us back to where you
were before you entered the program kind of what was
going on in your life at the time.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
Right, well, just very briefly, like I've been kind of
like in and out of twelve Steps I started.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
I think I started in twelve Steps like about five
years ago. But as I said, like, I had a
sponsor during the COVID lockdown.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
And we were talking every single.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Day and we're working through the first thirty questions.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
Of his law, and so we had like a close relationship.
And then.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
I like responded to a message from an X and
you know, the lines that we had thrown for sobriety
were kind of like loose. So I took it one way,
she took it another then, you know, because I was
scared of losing her. Then I was like, no, let's
take your way, you know, Like but then she, you know,
decided to turn in the relationship. So and that had

(41:13):
happened before that. I had another re sponsor that it
didn't work out, And so honestly, after this experience, I
was kind of like, you know what, like I just
don't even want to interact with anybody, Like I'm kind
of like going to close myself up, just gonna do
my best, and like I just cannot stand anymore rejection

(41:35):
or abandonment or you know, because it really did take
a huge stole in me. So then you know, the
situation got pretty pretty bad, to the point where I
was like, you know what, like I'm just gonna show
up for meetings and like try to work the steps
and things like that. And my sponsor just you know,

(41:58):
up here, and she's this lovely lady from Chicago. She's
a therapist, she's a Christian, and I had suffered from
you know, spiritual abuse as well, I feel as you know,
as a kid, so I didn't like I wasn't even

(42:20):
looking to believe in anything.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
I really felt like that higher power.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Thing was really stupid, and you know that I was
above that because that was intellectual and you know, better
than them. So I read the AA book and especially
the diagnostics.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
Weagnostics chapter really got to me because it was really.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Like it it requires so little, right, Like it was
just telling you to keep like a little you know,
open mind, like just the slightliest bit that maybe there
was something more. And especially seeing my sponsor being so
loving and gentle and like consistent and you know, in

(43:03):
a human way, I was like, Okay, she seems very peaceful.
She seems very centered. She's dealing with things as well.
So it's not like, you know, her life is perfect,
but she's pretty much like you know, every time that
she gets a hte or something like, she's calm still.
So that really helped me off to kind of like

(43:26):
you know, start my Christian journey and then to believe
that I could actually reach out to Tim Flincher, which
you know, I had seen his videos for years. I
had tried to contact him or like subscribe to a
newsletter or something like two years before, and so there.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
Was I it was something that I need.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
I knew that I wanted to do. I just didn't
have like the guts or like the I didn't believe
in myself. I felt like I was just a burden,
So why would I even reach out?

Speaker 2 (43:55):
And like so, but thanks to my sponsor and her
encouragement and her you know.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Showing up consistently and loving on me and all that,
even though I you know, slipped like a million times,
I was like, Okay, maybe I do believe in human
and be again.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
You know, I just reached out and I started the program, and.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
I think it's the biggest thing that it's happened apart
from my sponsor, because like you know, especially in twelve Steps,
it's kind of like there are people coming in and.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Out, and like you know, it really depends on who
is running a meeting. Like it's very unsafe. For me.
It was really triggering sometimes except.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
For a couple of meetings that I really knew kind
of who was leading them, and I found myself comfortable there.
But other than that, it was kind of like a
minefield and that uncertainty kind.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Of like just you know, it made it hard.

Speaker 1 (44:54):
And so what I appreciated about LIFT is that it's
a very safe environment.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
I had the lack of having the most wonderful fears
and during the.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
Class, and I don't know, like I just felt like
I could be me, even if I was like the
most messy you know again, like I couldn't even make
a sentence like just you know, I was in such
a disregulated state, just couldn't think straight or explain things

(45:29):
like it's.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
You know, it was going all over and I remember
like facilitators going to be in like, oh my gosh,
how what do I ever flect back on you?

Speaker 4 (45:39):
Right?

Speaker 1 (45:40):
But they but they kept showing up and like trying
right to help me and everything, and you know it again,
like even for me, more importantly than the facilitators was
the people that I met there because they weren't getting
paid and still they really supported me and they really

(46:00):
upsept to me as I was where it was, and
I was like, okay, yeah, there is good people in
this world, right, Like just it's not only my sponsori
and it's not only.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
There were so many great things coming from that.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (46:19):
You know what I love about what you're sharing, you know,
is that kind of when you can really find that
safe place and to be safe, and then there's you know,
there's there's like leadership and guidance.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
But you know, so many of us come in.

Speaker 4 (46:33):
And we've you know, we've both had problems and caused problems. Yeah,
I guess, but yet so we're all people who in
our relationships have kind of maybe created chaos, and yet
when we have that just that that really supreme element

(46:55):
of safety, but also that gentleness and and some guidance,
we can really.

Speaker 3 (47:03):
Touch into that authenticity.

Speaker 4 (47:05):
And the vulnerability and explore ourselves. And I also really
love that you know that you had that sponsor, just
kind of having that that support can be so valuable.
I was wondering, you know, so a lot of a
lot of twelve step programs, they work at the level
of addiction, and from my experience, many of them aren't

(47:26):
familiar with complex trauma. That essentially every addiction exists underneath
this umbrella of complex trauma. And so when when did
you first learn about complex trauma?

Speaker 3 (47:40):
Like, what what was it that that clicked for you.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
I'm smiling because I'm thinking about the you know, the
intake interview that we have before we start the program.
Nicole asked me the same question, and I just came
up with this very long answer about how, you know,
at the worst of my life, of the very you know,

(48:04):
rock bottom, I had this partner that had left me,
which was the first time in my life that happened,
and so I just felt, you know, my heart just
smashed and little pieces, and to be honest, like I
was just really suicidal, like kind of like having a
plan and everything.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
And so I just started to will my symptoms right
like just I don't even know what I wrote.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
But somehow I got the article by Pete Walker Abandonment Depression,
and I was like, yep, this is what it is right.
Like I just again, like I don't know if it's
something autistic or what it is. But when I see
someone literature, nonfiction, whatever.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
Just explaining something that I that really.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
Explain my experience, my experience, like it really reflects it,
I'm like, this is what it is.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
So I just you know, I.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Bought the book, I did some of the exercises, and
I remember just reading in the annex.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Or like the bibliography.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
I don't know, like some resources that he was posting
at the end of the video the book, sorry that
they were like the twelve step you know, twelve step groups,
and so I that's how it started, the whole you know.
But even I remember like talking to my sponsor the
first time because she offered to sponsor me, and I

(49:36):
was like, okay, so what do you know about trauma? Like,
you know, like just I just want someone that it's
really trauma informed or like someone that has done ACA.

Speaker 4 (49:46):
Or so you found the trauma component like very early
in your journey.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
The only thing is that my problem has been that
I always thought that I could fix it on my own,
that with the information it wasn't off right mm, But
of course you can't like you really need a drive of.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Good people to kind of like support you and like
like to because it is I think that Mantic talks
about how.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
It is like a relationship wound or something like that,
and so that it has to be kind of like
fixed through relationship with others as well, Like you cannot
just you know, fix it on your own.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
And I really hated that because I really wanted to
do it on my own and just you know, get
it over with and just move on.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
And and I tried even to write a novel about it,
you know, just there's this concept of narrative therapy or
something like that, and I was like, yeah, I'm just
going to change the end, like the end is going
to be the way that I would have wanted it
to be.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
But yeah, that didn't help either.

Speaker 4 (50:55):
So yeah, I know, I think you I don't think
about that that much, but you make such a point
about kind of like needing that tribe because like the coregulation,
the attunement. Yeah, somebody said something to me the other
day that was so valuable. It's like, you know, when
when we go into our Olympic brain, like there's a
lot of there's a lot of practices but and that

(51:16):
we can do on our own, but it often it
really helps to have you know, one adult in the room,
one person in their cortex.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
And so when we're.

Speaker 4 (51:25):
Like this, regulated to have somebody who can guide us
back into our cortex.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
And I also think that it has to do with how,
you know, parents are supposed to model.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
Things for the children.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
And on your own even if rationally you know how
you should act or how or love yourself, Like what
does that even mean?

Speaker 2 (51:48):
You know what I mean? Like, just I know that
I need to love myself, but I don't know how
to do it.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
So and I feel like that drive kind of like
gives you that acceptance and love and so you kind
of like start to take it in.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
Yeah, and you start to believe it.

Speaker 4 (52:05):
That the healthy modeling can be so good. Let me
so let me ask too, you know, with kind of
with the autism and an ADHD, like when when did
that realization happen for you? And what was your process
like after you discovered that? Right?

Speaker 1 (52:24):
But I think the first person that told me about
ADHD was someone in recovery tool steps that we were
kind of like having outreached goals, and she told me
about it and I was like, I was kind of
like doubting her own diagnosis because I was like, but
but you read a lot like it doesn't seem like

(52:45):
you have an attention problem to me obviously talking from
complete lack of any experience, any knowledge, anything. And then
she said, and I think that you have it too,
and I was like, no way, Like, okay, I am lazy,
I'm disorganized. I am, but I you know, sometimes I

(53:10):
really focus and I got crazy like down rabbit holes
of information and like it, I'm like a hound rain.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
So I don't think this fits with me. But you know,
you start to.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
See videos online explaining some of the little details about
what it means, how.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Someone can experience it.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
There's like different expressions of it as well, like maybe
there are people who actually, you know, they are not messy.
They have their house like full in order, like everything,
they know where it is. They get their own time,
but at what price because they actually have learned to
compensate for all the deficits by being extra ocd or

(53:56):
like okay, you know, like I just need.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
To get there thirty minutes before, or you know, I just.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Need to like have everything under control because if not,
I know that and at a certain point anyhow, even
those profiles they end up burning out because that's not sustainable, right,
Like you need to I feel for me, it's like
you need to work with the neuro divergence, not kind
of like fight it. And there are strutges that seem

(54:25):
to work better at least for me, Like I know
that if I tried to do something for five minutes,
I am more likely to do it than.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Just trying to get everything sold in Miday or like.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
They're like little you know, ways of working with the
narrow divergence and find like strutges that actually work and help.

Speaker 4 (54:52):
Like with that one, like kind of like chunking it
making it easier to comprehend or to attack or.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
To do.

Speaker 4 (55:00):
Let me before we go too far in this, like
let me let me just add the trauma to it,
because like you know, so, how does.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
Learning kind of about neurodivergence.

Speaker 4 (55:11):
Change the way you understand your experiences with trauma? And
because like I know, some of kind of some some
of the signs and symptoms can be can be similar,
can be the same, Like how does that how do
you tease that out? How does that show up for you.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
To be honest, Like, I don't know, I find it
really really.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
Hard to kind of distinguish how much is trauma and
how much is ADHD or how much is drama, how
much is autism because you can explain a lot of
the symptoms with trauma, like you know, maybe even even
the most distinguished.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Phraates like social interaction.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
Well maybe you just have social phobia or maybe you
just you know, the trauma makes you tense up in
relationships and like you know, social interactions and you don't
know what to say because you're so nervous about it.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Like so if you're vigilant.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
Or even about special interest, right, which is another cornerstone
about what autism is.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Like you just you have some things that.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
You just go deep into, Like I don't know, for me,
it's been writing, you know, I all my life, the
best coping mechanism that I had was literature because I
felt kind of like understood and like, I don't.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Know, it kind of like the world that around me
kind of disappeared, right. So, and then.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
You know, the from the trauma lens that could be
seen as yeah, of course you're trying to deal with
the environment and you just try to get your attention
somewhere else because you can't handle everything that is going on.
Or let's say that you know, another one of my
big interests is.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Trauma and there divergence.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
So yeah, of course you're gonna be obsessed about trauma
because you have trauma, so you're trying to resolve it.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
So it's just really hard to tell which one comes
from where.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
But actually, a couple of days back, I read an
article by Ernesto.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
He's like this.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Peruvian expert about trauma and also he's artistic himself.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
So oh sorry about trauma.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
About autism, he's an expert in autism, and so he
was talking about how the brain processes information differently. I
don't know if you've heard about this book Thinking Fast
and Slow, right, So basically he kind of like made

(57:49):
the point that autistic people kind of like go with
more the slow route, right, like they think it.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Was like induction. You just kind of like see a
lot of examples and then you kind of like find
like a theory or like.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
A rule among them, and neurotypical people kind of like
have this deductive work, like they just they think fast
because they think with the instinct, right, like just they
know how to you know, when to say hi with
someone like.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
How at what distance? Is that? Okay? Like for me,
I'm just looking at the guy.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
And like walking and being like okay, do I say
how now? Or you know, like it's just overthinking things a.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
Lot, which again just drama, right, But I don't know
there's there's a difference. I just don't know how to
explain it.

Speaker 4 (58:44):
Yeah, So how kind of how does like understanding that
like shape your healing journey as you discover like different
tools or use different tools, you know, because is there
something that works to kind of help you regulate and

(59:06):
live and socialize with both or are you finding like
different tools you know, then maybe somebody else would find
who's coming at it from just more like a pure
trauma lens?

Speaker 2 (59:20):
Right? I think psycho education first, like very important, and.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
You know, you don't even need to know if you
are logistic or ADHD or anything like that, but just
like you know, take a look at their charactriistics and
examples of specific cases of how.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
They manifest or things like that, and then just trying.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
So even for example, like there's this thing about autism
that it's called the double empathy problem or something like
that which is like, because you always assume that artistic
people have a problem in communicating, right, like they have
this deficit and social interactions or but actually when they
relate among them, it's like they speak the same language,

(01:00:07):
so they do understand each other.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
There's no deficit there. But if they're interacting with neurotypicals,
where people who have you know, another way of.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Understanding relationships, you know, they just it's almost like there's
someone that talks about how sometimes this problem of double
empathy or could be similar to you know, me speaking Spanish,
you speak English.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
I talked to you in Spanish and you're like.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
You don't know how to speak you know English, and
that's like yeah, because I speak Spanish and you don't
know Spanish. So but none of them are wrong. They
just speak different.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Languages, right, and they just don't understand each other.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
So psycho education on the one hand, then I find
that the another great tool of having like recognizing these
differences is finding your drive. And again it's this whole
thing about finding people who get it, who have the.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Same struggles, who support you, who.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
For me, like you know, and of course there are
techniques and for example, like even specific jobs that are
better in general for narrow diverse people or for example,
if you're autistic, then probably don't look for a you know,
listening you know, like treating with the people kind of

(01:01:39):
a job, because you're gonna find it very hard.

Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
You want to have like like retail or sales or.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Yeah, anything that has like.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Yeah, like because obviously you're gonna try to fit in
or mask your difference.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
You know, you're gonna try to be like a chameleon.
Just and when you get.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Back home, like and I heard millions of cases like that,
people just get back home and they just crush and
they are non verbal, and they just because it's too
much for them.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
Like so just I don't know, like.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
It seems to work a lot for artistic people to
work online.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Like I my best friend, for example, from who I
learned what artistic looks like, he was a translator. He's
a writer, so very you know kind of like things
that you do on your own, things like that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
Could you could you share could you explain a little bit,
Like you mentioned the masking, It's not something that I'm
not very familiar with.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
It's a newer term for me, Like what like what.

Speaker 4 (01:02:47):
Is masking and maybe like how how does that show
up for you?

Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
That's a really good question. Masking is pretending that you're
like the person that you have in front right, Like
you you've been shamed for being yourself so many times
that you know by now what is socially acceptable? Or
you know, I might have the tendency to rock and

(01:03:18):
that's what makes me be calm and everything, or for example,
in my case, actually it's ecoal ya. I don't know
if I'm pronouncing that writing English, but basically what it
means is that you have to sendency to like talking
alone or like just sing little things or like just
make these noises that just I don't know, like it's

(01:03:40):
like a form of steaming.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
It's steaming is also like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Yeah, those calming behaviors, right, oh, it's it's masking. Is
just yeah, that trying to adapt yourself to the you know,
so that you're not.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Just sure yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:03:57):
Is that? So is that something that like you're or
consciously doing or that you've you've done it enough that
it's kind of like subconscious, like is it? And is
that like a part you mentioned kind of when we're
working with others that often there's this exhaustion afterwards. Is
that is that one of the you know, it sounds
to me like kind of just we just kind of

(01:04:19):
like holding almost like holding yourself back in a way, right,
would be really tiring.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Doing that, right, I think for me, for example, when
I'm facilitating in class, I know that there are certain behaviors.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
About me that people can kind of misunderstand.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
I don't know if you've noticed already, but when I'm talking,
many times I will just look somewhere else, right, or
I'll just need to write everything down so that I
can ask them a question afterwards and remember the question.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
And it could be you know, they could be reading
like I'm not paying attention or you know, anything like that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
So I like there's a conscious effort sometimes to you know,
look at you in the eye, but then I can't concentrate,
so I'll have to, you know, look somewhere else and
like so it's a lot of.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Back and forth where you're trying to of course like
fit in because I'm not independent, so.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
But then at the same time, like I need to
do these things because otherwise it's like it makes everything
harder for me. So yeah, I don't know, it goes yeah,
back and forth between conscious and unconscious.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Right, mm hmm.

Speaker 4 (01:05:42):
There's there's like so many things I want to ask you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
Just not of that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
So like.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
That that's kind of that that fitting in.

Speaker 4 (01:05:52):
I think there's a you mentioned like a little bit before,
but like the shaming and so.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
I think that's one of the things that happens a.

Speaker 4 (01:06:02):
Lot in schools and even in their families, is when
somebody's acting in a different way, you kind of shame
them to fit in.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
By the way, it's so funny that people will say, oh,
are you artistic, like you know, like I.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
Don't understand, and then you generally look back and.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
Like the people in your class knew that you were different,
you know, like they could smell it, and that's why
maybe they bullied you or you know, they rejected you.
Lucky for me, I had two friends that we were
kind of like a group between us so and we
were kind of weird in different ways, so we kind
of like you know, stuck together.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
And like during elementary.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
School, that was my whole kind of like social landscape.
You know, like there was like the group of girls,
but they were you know, the cool girls, so they
all they have like a turkey or hurky and between
us it was just three of us, like just you know.
So I didn't suffer too much bulling while I was

(01:07:10):
in elementary.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
School, but then in high school that was, you know,
different thing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
I sure did a lot of masking, like I was
just dumb myself down, like pretend that I.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
Don't understand anything, and that I you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
Know, just to fit in, yeah, and not be attacked.
That only lasted so long though, and you know I did,
I had.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Some bullying as well, so.

Speaker 4 (01:07:39):
Yeah, who so when you when you use the word
weird here, I just want to so for me, that
was always like a really shameful weird, Like for you,
it was was weird just like I'm different, I'm unique,
I'm still special or is it kind of like.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
Was there like a.

Speaker 4 (01:07:58):
Feeling of shame associhameed being different or having kind of
different traits from other people.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
It's been quite a journey there as well. I did
use to feel like I was different in a.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Very peturity or like you know, bad way, especially in
my family because I was kind of like the black
sheep and I don't know, like I was very stubborn
and I wasn't like an easy child, right, and so
and especially with my mom, she was a single parent,
probably autistic and definitely ADHD and so you know, she

(01:08:38):
hadn't often her.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
Plate like to so basically she saw me as evil
or something.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
But I would just be difficult because you know, just
to ruin her life or something.

Speaker 6 (01:08:50):
And so that was that was really hard, and I
think there was a point in my life in general
been negative.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
But then I think I was like, yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
Think it was in fourth of high school, so I
was like sixteen, and there was this paper that we
had to write about I don't know about something environmental
or something, and because I've read a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Like I could write really well.

Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
So he had a chat with me afterwards and he said,
I think you might be gifted. And that was the
first time that I heard that, and I was like, oh,
like it didn't quite fit in with me. I never
had great, you know, grades or anything. And then there

(01:09:43):
was someone else that said it, like a good friend
of mine who was gifted and said, I think you're
gifted as well.

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
Run that's how generally these.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
Labels will be spread around, right, Like you just hang
out with people who are similar to you in some way,
and I was like, that makes so much sense, Like
that's why I'm different, right, Like that's the.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
Whole and it's a great label because I'm better than So.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
That's the way that I thought about it then, right,
And so I was like, actually, yeah, like that's that's
a much better part time than I'm just boldy or
lovable or just you know, there's something wrong with me. Basically,
maybe there's something very good with me, you know, and

(01:10:29):
that's why people reject me.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
But there was more than that. And so right now,
it's such a.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
Hard question to answer, right, because there's things that I
really like about myself and that I wouldn't change, and
some others that I am like, well, they would make
life a lot easier. So those awareness like there's a
part of me that would like to just them off, right,
and just so yeah, it's a hard balancing act of

(01:11:06):
you know, just accepting all those parts.

Speaker 4 (01:11:09):
Yeah, so some places where there's still a lot of difficulty.
What is that label gifted?

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
It's such a weird concept as well, but basically I
think it means that you're good with logic and recognizing
patterns and like synthesizing information. And like, you know, your
brain is more able to see those things than maybe

(01:11:39):
someone else's brain. And obviously there are also like lots
of sub categories of each level of giftness, Like there
is I think.

Speaker 2 (01:11:49):
Just gifted, like I used to know that, but profoundly gifted.
There was another one.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
And also like every fifteen points of difference likeness, it
counts from the DAOs.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
Belt from one hundred and thirty.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
If you have more than one hundred and thirty points
of IQ, you're gifted.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
And they do all sort of you know.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
Test for that, which might work, might not work, depending
on where you are as well and everything.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
But that's another whole topic.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):
Then for every fifteen points of difference, you get to
another level of giftiness, right you Just.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
So, I don't know, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
There are differentely different characteristics for people who are gifted,
the same way that there are different characteristics for people
with autism or ADHD.

Speaker 4 (01:12:41):
Okay, but yeah, it's like.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
Very fast up.

Speaker 1 (01:12:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:12:46):
Who there's a lot that sounds like there's a lot
related to kind of like thinking. But then there's like
the kind of the sensory component as well, you know,
one of complex trauma also there's a lot of Like
the word I used for myself was I was this

(01:13:09):
a bodyless head? So it's just this.

Speaker 3 (01:13:12):
Yeah, yeah, it's just this head.

Speaker 4 (01:13:14):
But like you know, you don't you've suppressed, denied, repressed
all the emotions.

Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
You know, you don't you.

Speaker 4 (01:13:20):
Don't necessarily feel bodily sensation. Do you kind of push
those down as well? Kind of like what is your
relationship to your to your body in general?

Speaker 1 (01:13:31):
First of all, I just want to say that I
feel safe in my head, like there's there are so
many ideas, and you know, in my head there is
some sort of.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
Organization or like safety.

Speaker 1 (01:13:44):
It's just what comes easily right, Like that's the fault rationalizing,
rationalizing or you know, like I just understand a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
And feeling wise is very you know, like you do
need to done it with the body and the body
sensations and but sometimes I also find it easier to just.

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
Assess what I'm feeling by what I would like to do,
Like if I want to smash the table, oh okay,
I'm angry, if I want to hide all that shame,
like it's a more rational way of getting there instead
of like what am I feeling? Where? And like because
that's not which so and I do think that there

(01:14:29):
is some resistance to connect with my body because there
is something stored there that I don't want to you know,
see or.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
Yeah, something like that, so.

Speaker 3 (01:14:47):
Kind of going to them.

Speaker 4 (01:14:48):
So with with emotions you kind of mentioned, there's like
almost like a feedback loop of looking up and thinking
about it, like, right, did you when you when you
came into lyft or when you came into this, were
you attuned to a lot of your emotions? Do you
do you kind of reflect or do you have an
awareness of a lot of different emotions. I'm trying to

(01:15:13):
think of two things that might be, you know, like
the difference you know, if there's a difference between frustration
and irritation, like some things that are kind of close
on that would probably be close on a feeling wheel
that may have some like subtle, subtle differences or are
there are there bigger areas of yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
You're shaking your head, oh man, Like I just did.

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
The last class that I facilitated was about the difficult
emotions painful emotions, and so we're talking about how traumatized.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
People sometimes only feel sad, glad or bad for me,
even those three like are still hard to read sometimes.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
I think it is a byproduct of alexidemia, which is
something very connected with autism, which means that you really
have a hard time knowing what you're feeling, and that
my understanding of this is that what this also causes
is that because you don't know what you're feeling, emotions

(01:16:17):
keep building up and up and up until they just
burst right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
Like and you don't even know what led to that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
You know, like just maybe someone was like touching you.
That should an upset You're, right, like rationally, You're like,
but that is upsetting you because of sensory issues I
don't know, and that is building up and you're rationalizing
so you're not saying anything about it or it's like
that gas lighting and like is it right?

Speaker 2 (01:16:45):
Is wrong? Like lots of you know, questioning. So yeah,
I don't think I can, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
I can recognize maybe those three a little bit better,
but definitely I remember like talking about anger and they
and they were talking about frustration as anger, and.

Speaker 2 (01:17:05):
I was like, oh, that's the same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:17:07):
I didn't think about that, And then I was like, yeah,
I do have lots of anger, because I do have
lots of frustration, right, So that's that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
Was one of the you know, insight moments of lift.

Speaker 4 (01:17:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it sounds too like there's a
lot of people who with like anger, especially I'm not
an angry person, and so you want to you kind
of want to deny you know, that frustration, irritation, resentment,
disappointment for all, like they all have shades of anger

(01:17:41):
and right, and so, but it sounds.

Speaker 3 (01:17:43):
More that for you that there's this.

Speaker 4 (01:17:46):
Lack of recognition kind of like a difficulty with the
recognition of it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
Yeah. And I remember doing the fourth inventory in twelve
steps and someone was talking to about how.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
You know, some people, especially alcoholics, like have a lot
of regrets and they have to do a lot of
amends and all.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Of these things.

Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
And for me it was more on the resentment side.
You know, there are some people who get it outward
and some people get it inside. And so I was
one of those people who, you know, get depression because
they are angry you know themselves, And so I just

(01:18:29):
the biggest insight about that step was learning that the
person that I owed more amens to was myself because
I'm not setting boundaries because of not learning to stand
up for myself.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
I advocate for my needs. You know, goes on and on.
It's just there's a lot connected.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
With alexandimya and not recognizing your feelings.

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:18:56):
Sorry, I'm pausing there, just because I'm reflecting. That's That's
one thing for me is like having been really codependent
and needing to please other people and their wants and
their moods and like really kind of turning but having
a lot of anger and turning it into resentment and
towards myself. That just that attitude of like that that

(01:19:18):
person that you have to make amends to is yourself, right, Yeah,
how how does it making amends to yourself? How does that?
How does that look.

Speaker 2 (01:19:31):
For me? It's kind of like changing the way that
you treat yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:19:34):
For like, you know, seeing kind of like the ways
in which you failed yourself and mean like, okay, how
can I do this differently? Like how can I work
and grow these areas? And in this sense, like I'm
happy with myself because even though I definitely do get
it like one hundred percent right, you know, any of

(01:19:57):
the time, but I do see where I'm heading, you know,
what's the ideal for me? And I'm walking towards it,
like and slowly, even if it's like three steps forward
and two backwards and then two backwards again and then
four and it is kind of like going towards that place.

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
Nice.

Speaker 4 (01:20:19):
I think, Yeah, that just really kind of that there's
a huge component of that building some self care, self respect,
honoring yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:20:30):
I didn't even know what boundaries were, to be honest,
I thought it was just again something that I feel
like the most important part for me from Lyft. It's
also been the psycho education because there were so many
things that I didn't know. I didn't know the boundaries
wasn't just saying I have this need, but saying I

(01:20:51):
have this need and if you don't care about it,
then probably I need to, you know, go away, or
I just I do something about it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
I just don't say, Angie, I need you to hug me,
and you don't do it, and.

Speaker 1 (01:21:05):
So I stay there like no, like you know, I
do something about it, like I care about myself.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Something else that I learned from there from.

Speaker 1 (01:21:14):
LIFT is that they are like different little bubbles of
social connections right where you have like soul made right
that we talk about like the person that you really
rely on and still they're human, but you know they're
kind of consistently there and they have earned that place.
And then there are like close equagances, right, and it's

(01:21:34):
another little bubble. There was no bubbles for me, like
everybody was walking in and out, like just so it's
just and again like that's the whole thing about not
having any of that education, any of that modeled app
for you.

Speaker 2 (01:21:53):
Yeah, just you know, feeling very positive.

Speaker 4 (01:21:56):
Oh, I know that levels of a relationship is one
of the one of the really gold pieces of moving
from not knowing to acquaintance to casual friend to close
friend and soulmate and just the fact that you know
that the reality behind I don't know you. You know,

(01:22:17):
we can we can meet each other, we can just
completely connect and one day. But like it really takes
you six months to start to get to know somebody
and then a year because it's so easy to hide, uh,
I mean to to mask I guess, uh some of
the you know, our patterns or traits or of how

(01:22:37):
we treat other people or how we.

Speaker 1 (01:22:40):
Get to be on your base behavior, you know, and
like kind of like hiding the parts that you know
they're not gonna like, so I'm not gonna show them
just yet. Maybe when they are kind of like hooked
on to you, you're like the bride, you know, but
not yes, just yet. But it's true that and you know, actually,

(01:23:00):
like I feel that I should know that that it
takes time to get to know someone. But again, because
of the naivy d or the you know, impulsivity of
just you know, I want to get close to someone
so you might as well be you, I just never
took the time to kind of like see if they
were consistent or if they were showing any right flags

(01:23:21):
or you know, it was kind of like from zero
to one hundred and a week, and so it's very
hard then to kind of like you know, detach from
that person when.

Speaker 4 (01:23:31):
Yeah, yeah, this wraps back a little bit to something
we're talking to at the beginning kind of of that
you know, in a way, our thoughts or our fantasies
or what people say as it differs from their their
actions and their behaviors, right, So really just kind of
having that time to to recognize behaviors and then to

(01:23:52):
trust the behaviors and to trust ourselves and trust in
those behaviors. Yeah, let me.

Speaker 3 (01:23:59):
Ask so you. You talked about.

Speaker 4 (01:24:01):
Boundaries here and a bit about emotions, and then kind
of just the like these these levels of relationships kind
of what are what are some of the other challenges
or the bigger challenges that you found and faced in
your trauma healing journey.

Speaker 2 (01:24:20):
I think advocating for my needs or even.

Speaker 1 (01:24:25):
Basic self care like going to the doctors, you know,
And there's a lot going on there because there are
like negative experiences, you know, people who have invalidated me or.

Speaker 2 (01:24:36):
Didn't take me seriously. There's also the fact.

Speaker 1 (01:24:40):
That I need to interact with someone and and also
like it's a figure of authority, so kind of like
scared of their power towards me, especially if it's like
someone in mental health, right, It's like they can make
a diagnosis of you and maybe they you know, give
you like the wrong label and they commit you.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
You know, like there's a lot of fear, and so
I think that's been a huge challenge for me.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
Another one it's been just to develop, you know, relationships,
like just you know, I used to just be focused
on let's find the romantic partner and then don't have
to ever trust anybody ever again. And I'm like, oh,
now I understand what the psychologists we're saying about how
one person will never be able to be there one

(01:25:29):
hundred percent of the time and to meet one hundred
percent of your needs, like you actually need a.

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
Drive to you know. So I called you today, Andy.

Speaker 1 (01:25:37):
And we talk and I feel better, and tomorrow maybe
I have another crisis and I call someone else and
so we kind of like it's that network of support
instead of just relying on one person, and kind of
like they give you different stuff as well, because maybe
you're very good at listening and maybe someone else is
very good at I don't know, like giving physical and

(01:26:00):
fiction or taking me out for a walk or.

Speaker 2 (01:26:04):
And again, like we're really chalking about that.

Speaker 1 (01:26:09):
Relationship that should have been modeled by a part but
they didn't have the tools, and so now every relationship
that we have is kind of like that healing experience
or that you know, we traumatizing experience.

Speaker 4 (01:26:23):
So, yeah, who you mentioned a kind of a couple
of times too, and I think you actually just gave
a couple of examples here, but of the needs and
so you know, what I heard you say is like
sometimes like physical affection, listening support, going for a walk,
like how are you identifying what your needs are?

Speaker 3 (01:26:47):
How are you discovering what your needs are?

Speaker 4 (01:26:49):
And then how are you kind of finding the tools
to express them.

Speaker 2 (01:26:56):
It's so funny now that you were phrasing the question.

Speaker 1 (01:26:59):
I was thinking, I actually have gotten so much better
at recognizing those feelings or connecting with my gut and
being like something here is not feeling right, like I
don't know it's is it how?

Speaker 2 (01:27:11):
And is looking at me? Is it like how he's
talking to me? Or like you know, and so I
do feel too a.

Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
Certain extent that I've conne into mourn with my body
or like understand better.

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
And so now and again, like you know, recognizing is only.

Speaker 1 (01:27:31):
One part of the you know, whole process, but then
actually verbalizing.

Speaker 2 (01:27:40):
I feel like I've had to do this with save
people a lot of times to.

Speaker 1 (01:27:46):
Kind of get in the habit of speaking up and
losing that fear that speaking up equals being rejected or
being attacked or because that's been most of my life experience.
Right that the moment that I spicked up, it was
you know, you're a burden, and like why can you
just you know, why are you being so difficult? And

(01:28:07):
like so it's kind of like breaking that pattern. But
my needs right now.

Speaker 2 (01:28:13):
It's I think there's a huge need for autonomy.

Speaker 1 (01:28:20):
So like anytime that I feel that someone kind of
like telling me what is right or wrong in my journey,
I kind of like fackle, right, like just what you mean,
like you know better than I do. Like that's that's
been because of all the previous validations and all that, right,
Like just in my mom being very controlling and like, oh,

(01:28:43):
we shooting me right, like you should?

Speaker 2 (01:28:44):
You should? You should.

Speaker 1 (01:28:45):
So anytime that I feel even the lightliest even if
it's in a not pacif aggressive but like I know
what is good for you kind of a way, right,
I just feel like, you know, there's that OCD or
just partner rebels against it, right.

Speaker 4 (01:29:05):
So yeah, So in that, in that need for autonomy
is kind of the what I'm hearing is a bit
of like kind of other people telling you how to
be or who you are, how to live. Uh, you've
talked a lot about the romantic interests or the romantic partner.

Speaker 3 (01:29:28):
Does the need for autonomy? Does that?

Speaker 4 (01:29:30):
Is that autonomy kind of showing up kind of just
as you think about I can't think of the right word,
like romanticism or relationships as well. Are you finding more
independence for yourself on your journey?

Speaker 1 (01:29:46):
Yeah, I think I am. It's it's kind of funny
because I always had that little part right, Like even
when I was very meshed with a partner, but I
was I had some interest that I wanted to explore.
Like I remember when I was working with The Artist's Way,
the book by Julia Cameron, and you know, I was

(01:30:08):
like writing every single day and I couldn't be more
frustrated than that person kind of interrupted me in the
middle of doing that, right, or just like taking my
time to do whatever. Like I've always kind of like
needed a little bit of space, like to breathe or
to feel like I am myself and I'm not like
completely lost.

Speaker 2 (01:30:29):
But now it's changed so much.

Speaker 1 (01:30:33):
I remember like dream lyft or like just finishing lift
that I told my coach that, you know, there was
no way that I would move to my grandparents' house
where I am right now, right because I would be
alone here and like I was gonna get repressed and
then suicidial and.

Speaker 2 (01:30:52):
Then like you know, there was nothing in between, like
just this was gonna happen. The little by little and
knowing that I could always go back if I.

Speaker 1 (01:31:05):
That's the way that I felt like just building like
a exit plan or like a you know, just making
sure that I'm not completely.

Speaker 2 (01:31:15):
You know that it's not revertible, but the option.

Speaker 1 (01:31:19):
Right, it just comes from Okay, let's try it out
and see what happened. And then that trying out, it's like, Okay,
I'm seeing this friend, but I'm seeing him one day
a week and the rest of the time I'm well.

Speaker 2 (01:31:33):
And actually I stopped seeing him and I'm wonderful right
like in moments.

Speaker 1 (01:31:40):
But that's the thing that I I have now, the confidence,
the self love, the I don't know how to call it,
but to actually explore these things and be more willing
to just be willing to face triggers. Before I had

(01:32:02):
that network of support, it was just like avoidance, aborid ands, avoyance,
like I just don't want to.

Speaker 2 (01:32:07):
Deal with anything because anything can me too much, and.

Speaker 1 (01:32:09):
Like I don't know what to do with it, so
it's better to avoid. And now it's as we were
talking about the beginning, right like just walking towards that trigger.

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):
And being like if I can deal with it, well,
I'll retreat.

Speaker 1 (01:32:22):
Right but for now, I feel like I am like
independently or autonous Missley going towards it, Like it's not
like I'm being attacked.

Speaker 2 (01:32:33):
It's like I'm going No, I don't know, Like it's
just you know, a more empowering way to see it
as well.

Speaker 3 (01:32:41):
Yeah, empowering.

Speaker 4 (01:32:43):
I was going to say, like I'm hearing a lot
of inner strength and choice and agency.

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):
Yeah that I feel like for trauma survivors, that is
like a huge piece, you know, piece of it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:32:56):
Yeah. How you know, as your kind of coaching and
facilitating and working with others, like how to your personal insights,
like how are you influencing the way you Well, my
question is like I think I strung together three things there,

(01:33:16):
so kind of what I want to know is like
how to your insights, these insights that you've discovered influenced
the way that you're supporting others or going through similar
healing journeys that one.

Speaker 1 (01:33:35):
Honestly, I I am so because i feel like I've
been invalidated so many times.

Speaker 2 (01:33:42):
I'm very open to kind of like.

Speaker 1 (01:33:46):
Communication about whether I trigger the other person as well, right,
Like I just want to because it will happen, you know,
like we just keep triggering each other. And I feel
like the biggest difference is that now since we are
in a safe environment, we can actually go ahead and

(01:34:06):
say something and like have a different you know, have
the situation play out in a different way than it
usually does. You know, even before it probably it was like,
oh you did this to me, and the other person,
Oh no, I.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
Did not, Like it's all your faul whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):
Just you know, leading to not resolving anything right or
like just more heartache and like just more with traumatizing.
And now it's like I can speak up and the
other person can show me if they care or not,
if they're willing to, you know, do like this conflict
resolution thing, which again another insight from Lift right, like

(01:34:43):
conflict is bad. Like before you know, going through it,
it's like you want to avoid conflict at any.

Speaker 2 (01:34:49):
Cost, and now it's like conflict actually.

Speaker 1 (01:34:52):
Shows you, you know, whether this relationship is worthwhile for
you or not, because it's a way of approaching a
conflict from the other you know, the person that you
have there that you're in a relationship with, is I
don't want to hear it, then why should I even
have a relationship with you?

Speaker 2 (01:35:11):
To start right, and.

Speaker 1 (01:35:14):
So now it's like, Okay, I hear you what you're saying.
I see how me telling you this thing you might
have feel invalidated or whatever. And yeah, I want to
work on obviously, like if I'm coaching you, like I
don't obviously I don't want you to, you know, feel

(01:35:34):
that I'm judging you or that I am trying to
lead you like towards a certain point or whatever, like
it's up to you, like it's your life, so obviously,
like I'm just here to help you, you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:48):
Know, understand better things and like offer the tools that
I have. But it is.

Speaker 1 (01:36:00):
It's just easier when you do speak the same language
I feel, you know, like again with the nearrow diverse
thing and everything, like I just feel that I click
better with certain people and then we speak kind of
like the same language, and if we don't speak the
same language, then maybe you know, it's also like a compatibility.

Speaker 2 (01:36:18):
Thing, right, So yeah, it's just learning all these new things.

Speaker 1 (01:36:22):
That and I can see also how you know, by
coaching all the people, I keep getting so much more
encouraged to do the same thing.

Speaker 2 (01:36:31):
With myself.

Speaker 1 (01:36:34):
Because I will be like, but you don't see Andy
you're amazing, like you're crushing this, you're dancing, and you're
you know, I don't know, like so many things, and
then I'm like wait at like I'm also doing these things.

Speaker 2 (01:36:48):
That are hurt for me and that you know, like
I don't take into account because well that's what you
have to do, right, like just I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:36:55):
And even the way of asking the questions very compassionately
or just like given that agency and that honest curiosity
where with yourself, like you're so used to just judging
or shaming or it really helps to.

Speaker 2 (01:37:14):
Kind of be nice not only to other people that
you know, do that with yourself. It's like kind of
both ways.

Speaker 4 (01:37:23):
Right, Yeah, Yeah, there's you know, there's that as a kid,
there's the thing when you point a finger at someone
and they're like, oh, when you're pointing a finger, you
have three pointed back at yourself. Like what I'm hearing
you say is that there's this this virtuous.

Speaker 3 (01:37:37):
Pointing.

Speaker 4 (01:37:38):
It's like when I'm pointing my finger at you and
kind of this like loving, validating, encouraging way. So then
I also be able to recognize and to do it
to myself as well and continue to find that growth.

Speaker 1 (01:37:51):
It's so funny though, again because like you start this
program or you know, in healthy environments like that, and
the first thing you notice is that that love for
you kind of like you know, gets it to do
it for yourself, and then when you're doing it with
other people, it's kind of like the same thing.

Speaker 2 (01:38:10):
So it's the more that you give.

Speaker 1 (01:38:13):
Or receive or you know, it's just like you know,
just very encouraging and very just it's all better.

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
I don't know how decision.

Speaker 3 (01:38:25):
And even finding a lot of value out of this.

Speaker 4 (01:38:28):
I was wondering, you know if so kind of touching
talking about supporting others, Like if you could go back
and give advice to yourself at the beginning, what would
you say.

Speaker 1 (01:38:43):
Oh, honestly, I would just have so much compassion, right.

Speaker 2 (01:38:51):
Good, cry.

Speaker 1 (01:38:55):
I have been so harsh on myself, Like I've just
internalized my mother voice so much, and I've been torturing
myself ever since, you know, even when I'm not with her,
it's just like you're not doing the right thing, and
you're weird and you're this and that.

Speaker 2 (01:39:13):
So I guess I would just say that.

Speaker 1 (01:39:18):
You're a beautiful person, you have a beautiful heart, You know,
don't compare yourself so much with other people, Like you
don't even know and you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:39:26):
Even care, like your experience is yours, and so.

Speaker 1 (01:39:31):
Just it's just so hard, Like I would say, love
yourself as you are, but again without the.

Speaker 2 (01:39:42):
Experience being model for you. I don't know. I find
it really difficult.

Speaker 1 (01:39:48):
But and again, like would I say to reach out
for the people, Probably not either, because like that behavior
of isolating had a very good protective you know reason.

Speaker 2 (01:40:01):
So I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:40:02):
I guess like I would just let it unfold the
way that it has, because I don't know how you
could have worked any other more perfect way.

Speaker 3 (01:40:10):
Honestly, there's something very beautiful about that.

Speaker 4 (01:40:15):
Do you start off with self compassion for yourself, but
then you really hand up with just letting yourself be.

Speaker 3 (01:40:23):
Who you are.

Speaker 1 (01:40:25):
It's just that I know that I'm so stubborn, you
know that whatever I said, I would be like.

Speaker 4 (01:40:31):
Like, I'm not going to listen to this person.

Speaker 2 (01:40:33):
Yeah, crazy lady.

Speaker 4 (01:40:41):
I want to thank you so much for sharing your
story with us. It's been really incredible to hear about
your journey to learn a little bit more about you
and your life. Kind of like the masking, like what's
what's beneath the mask a little bit and just how

(01:41:02):
autism and ADHD has influenced your path. I think this
has been really valuable, and so for anybody who's listening,
if Naria's story resonated with you or you have thoughts
to share, it would love to hear from you. And
thanks for spending this time with us. Until next time,
Take care, Thank you, thank you for joining us on

(01:41:26):
the Time with Tim podcast. If you'd like to share
your own experiences or have questions, feel free to email
us at podcasts at Tim Fletcher dot ca. Want to
learn more about complex trauma, subscribe to Tim Fletcher's YouTube
channel for past lectures and is Friday Night Tim Talks.

(01:41:46):
You can also connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn,
and TikTok. Looking for more support, we offer programs and
courses to help with healing complex trauma and recovering from addictions.
Visit Let You Do Ca to learn more or send
us an inquiry. We're here to support you until we
meet again. Take care and thank you for letting us

(01:42:09):
be a part of your healing journey.

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S2E9 | Neurodivergence and Healing from Toxic Relationships w/ Núria

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