S3E03 | The Road Back: Healing, Brotherhood, and the Power of Honest Change w/ Troy Koerntjes - Time with Tim Fletcher

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
When I got injured, I was living with one of
the most respected and high level bikeies in Australia, and
he's someone that I really looked up to, really respected,
and I just had my injury and I was trying
to put my socks on and I just I just
couldn't manage it, and I felt so emasculated and so useless.
And he walked past and I was like, hey, Bro,

(00:20):
can can you put my socks on?

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Please?

Speaker 1 (00:23):
And he almost scoffed at me, like I can't believe
you just asked me in that manner like, but.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
He's just like, of course, bro.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
This is one of the life changing moments for me.
This part right here is when he was just like, yeah, Bro,
of course put my socks on. I gave me a
pat on the back and walked off like it was
absolutely nothing. And that was like mind blowing to me.
I didn't feel like a burden at all. He was
just happy to help from being like a really redneck
country boy. You know the only thing men do we

(00:51):
shake hands.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Welcome. I'm Andy Carlson and you're listening to the Time
with Tim podcast. Each episode, wiplore the impact of complex
trauma through the personal journeys of our guests. Along the way,
we'll connect with experts and individuals who share their unique perspectives, insights,
and practical tools to help you on your healing journey.

(01:16):
Hey everyone, and welcome to today's episode of Time with Tim.
I'm Mandy Carlson and I'm here with Tim Fletcher and
our special guest, Troy Cuncies. Troy is the founder of
Complete Health, Geelong and the Mental Health Militia, a powerful
voice in Australia's mental health community, and someone who has
walked through immense personal transformation from life as a member
of an outlaw motorcycle club to rebuilding his body, mind

(01:39):
and purpose after devastating injuries and profound loss. Troy's journey
is one of radical resilience. Troy, thank you for being
with us.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Thank you very much. It's an honor to baby. I'm
a painfullod team for a long long time.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
To start us off, Troy would love to hear some
of your early story. Maybe what were some of the
defining childhood experiences that helped us shape who you became.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
There's some that I've remembered lately that I've never really
spoken about, and they may seem trivial to some people,
but I think at the stage of life that it
all sort of happened, and that it was continuous, that
it was a lot at the time. And I always
had a really bad memory for back in my childhood,
and then I started remembering this stuff. And so I've
got a lazy eye. You might be able to tell

(02:26):
it's a little bit, a little bit more clothes than
the other one. And growing up, I think it was
grade one. At primary school, I had to wear a
patch over my eyfe for half a year, so it
was like b line for half a year. And around
that same time, I just had a heap of stuff
going on. I've got flat feet and knocked knees, so

(02:47):
there was lots of appointments to the doctors to sort
of try and get that fixed. And then on top
of that, because I just started school back then, so
this was like nineteen eighties, late nineteen eighties. For some reason,
if you were left handed, they used to try and
make your right handed. So my nickname back then was

(03:09):
your because I used to write my name backwards and
upside down. So I was going through these first transitions
into school thinking I was thinking I was very very stupid.
I was like, there's something wrong with me. I'm half blind.
I couldn't catch a ball. It couldn't work out why
I couldn't catch a ball because I had no depth perception.

(03:31):
So my father's side were very sporty, and it was
always you got to play football, you got to play
football like AFL football, Aussie rules. And I could never
catch a football or kick a football, or save my life,
could never catch a cricketball. And yeah, it turned out
it was the lazy eye and that just followed me
for a long time until I got older and realized that, well,

(03:54):
I sort of like adapted my right eye, become like
made up for it, so to speak. I put that
down towards all the martial arts, but I never thought
much into those things because I never really remembered them
until until like the last couple of years. And now
I do put weight in it. And because of that,
I couldn't I don't have, you know, the big bang

(04:15):
theory with Raj. I couldn't talk to girls until I
was in year seven and I found alcohol. I could
not say a word to girls. And that's another memory
that I sort of had blocked out. But that was,
but that was very true as well. And then I
sort of lived on two planes as well. So my

(04:38):
dad's side very Dutch, very I guess you would say
probably avoidant attachment sort of style. There's you know, real
men don't have emotions, they don't cry, that that sort
of mentality. And they were all surfys, so they all
used to love the surf, living by the beach and
all that. Good work, hard working people. And my mom's

(04:59):
side very highly emotional, very probably anxious attachment, sile.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
You would probably say.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
A bit of dysregulation, lots of codependency, that sort of
that sort of thing. There was some schizophrenia and that
I remember having to get up in the middle of
the night to go help my Arnie who thought there
was vampires coming out the wall and there was blood coming.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Everywhere and all this.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
And this is around the same time where I was
going through all these what's wrong with me sort of
stage as well. So there was there was all that,
and then on the other side of that, they were
all country. So I grew up on a horse farm.
I used to love escaping to the farm, and so
that's where we ended up moving for a while. We
had we changed houses like every six seven months and

(05:46):
very often anyway, and a couple of times we ended
up back on the cowchip my nan and Pop's house,
and then we ended up out on a horse farm
and that become pretty big for me as a cowboy
for a for a long for a long time. And
my favorite thing is my uncle had a block out
in the bush and like I used to go out
there by myself. We had a family friend that lived

(06:08):
out there in this little hut in the middle of nowhere,
no electricity. It was run by Jenny, that sort of thing.
And there was nothing I loved more than going out
there every school holidays and just being out there riding
horses nap by myself out in the bush. It was
just it was just something that I absolutely loved doing.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
And then.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
One of my uncles always hung around bikies and I
used to look at them and I used to I
used to look look up to them and how they
related to each other. There was so much respect, and
they always preached family and every family blood over blood,
sticker than water, and everything comes first. But you know
with that also comes secrets and all this sort of
blind loyalty and that sort of stuff, and then I

(06:53):
started looking for things and through a lot of therapy,
I realized what I was doing.

Speaker 2 (06:59):
So I went for.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Joining Army Cadets for a couple of years. So I
did karate for since I was six, so that was
an all different sort of martial arts. And then I
went so I attribute it's got a uniform. I was
hoping to build confidence. I went from there to Army
Cadets had a uniform. I was trying to be a
part of something. I went from that to volunteering at
the CFA, so you know, again I got a uniform,

(07:25):
part of a group. And then I started one of
the first BNSU clubs in Australia, you know pick up
clubs so for US country boys, you know, all the
aerials and stickers and all that sort of stuff. And
I was the president of that for a while. And
then I started one of the first social motorbike clubs
and I was the president of.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
That for a few years.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
And then I become part of a motorcycle club and
I was the president of that for a couple of years.
And then I joined an outlaw motorcycle club. As that's
usually the progression that it goes so it was just identity, identity, identity.
And then I had an accident at work and they
said and then six weeks later I had another accident,

(08:07):
so I shattered my hip. I couldn't walk for twelve months.
I met somebody that was a specialist in the field
of recovery and stuff like that and was come down
to save me and help me and was the perfect partner,
and they weren't. They really did a number on me.

(08:28):
And during that same time, they said I'd never work again,
never lift over too kilos again, never walk properly again,
I'd never on my harley again. So my whole world
was just put upside down. And then my brother passed
away and through all of that work cover sort of
said you need to go to therapy. So I went

(08:51):
in there. You know, I'm at bikey, you know this
sort of stuff. But I'd always been good around mental
I always knew how people's brains work. I just had
a knack for it, like a lot of us do
with this pattern of behavior, you know. And yeah, and
I went in there thinking this is going to be easy.
I'm just going to play play the ball. And I
was crying within like twenty minutes crying my eyes out,

(09:14):
and that was that was the start of a huge transformation.
Best thing that ever happened to me. I went to
therapy two times a week for well, I think the
first year, and then I went weekly for that for
about another four years, and then after that, and it
was around somewhere around that first year actually spoke to
Tim on the phone. I think it was the first

(09:37):
or second year maybe.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
And then.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
I started studying canceling. And then at the end of
my canceling course, the guy next door popped his head
in and said, do you want to come into a
trainee ship and alcohol and other drugs? And I was like,
I don't know how this is going to work. I'm
in an outlaw motorcycle club. I party pretty hard. But
by but then I hadn't like I was starting a

(10:01):
tape off. I'd grown a lot, and it was just
once every now and again from being full time.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
And then.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
I started enjoying the recovery process. And then one day
I woke up and noticed, but I'm not going to
do drugs and stuff anymore. I just never spoke about
it with the psychologists. Used to go there fright all
the time, never once spoke about drugs. Just one day
I woke up and I was like, I'm not going
to do that anymore, and I didn't. And then there
was a guy there and he was on life parole.

(10:30):
He's one of three people in Australia that's on life parole.
And I was still in the club then, And in
Australia you've got non association laws. So the non association
laws mean, I don't know, do you guys have them
over there? Yep, So it just means that two criminals
can't be the same place.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
And he was on life parole.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
I was an Outloord Motorcycle Club member, which meant if
we were in the same room together, he was going
back to jail for life and I'd probably go to
jail because obviously we're both in the mental health and
disability space that were up to mischief working in this
same building. So I said to the club, I think
it's time.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
That I leave. It's not really.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
You know, in the direction where I'm going now, and
it's holding me back. And they were like, who are
we to stand in your way of bettering yourself and
helping other people. And from there I started a men's
group and started doing coaching for people while canceling for
people that have been through abusive relationships. Started on a

(11:28):
football oval, then started on a single car garage, then
a two and a three and a half car garage,
and now I've got a facility that we're that we
have just outgrown now. So we've started the Mental Health
Militia to try and help fund that so that we
can run out. All of our programs are completely free
for the community, and we're just doing that funded by

(11:49):
my company at the moment.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
And now we're here.

Speaker 4 (11:54):
So Troy, if I can just kind of go back
and get you to expand a little bit on a
few things. If you go back to just in school,
were you the lazy eye, the health issues, were you
bullied at all during that time or did your kind
of being involved in karate and stuff kind of keep

(12:15):
you from being bullied.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
You think that karate would stop that, but my self
confidence wouldn't allow me to stand up for myself. So yeah,
I got bullied heaps. I was a bit of a loner.
I liked to I always liked to think that I wasn't,
but I was. I was always on the outskirts of friends, groups,
never felt like I fit in at all anywhere. So

(12:39):
I think the big part of everything was just trying
to find some trying to find a home.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
So then, to me, the next question is, so Dad
avoiding attachment, Mom anxious attachment, some schizophrenia dysregulation with mom?
What was your how can I did? Or safe? Did
you feel with Mom and Dad?

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Probably not at all, to be honest, Yeah, now we've
got a great relationship with both of them. But back then,
from the outside looking in, it would have looked perfect.
You know, I spent some weekends out on the beach,
some weekends out on the farm, but there was just
for me, there was no connection. On my dad's side,
it was you did a great job, but right, you

(13:27):
can do better. It was nothing was really ever good enough.
And then on the other side, it was you're the
man of the house. You need to act more mature,
and you need to do these chores and you need
to do this otherwise you know, you're just ungrateful.

Speaker 4 (13:41):
Okay, So to me again, I'm hearing that, like at
your very very core, early on, it was sheep that
you're not good enough, you don't belong, nobody wants to
connect with you. So you're feeling alone, rejected, don't fit in,
and then you're or brain went to, well, if I'm

(14:03):
wearing a uniform and I'm part of a group and
I then then i'll fit in, then I'll get accepted,
then I'll be okay and good enough. And so you
pursue that, and because you kind of got natural leadership skills,
you're able to function okay in that those different domains.

(14:23):
So on one hand, you're you're partly getting kind of
some external validation for your uniform and your position and
all of that. What were you still feeling deep inside?
Are you? Were you aware of anything deeper inside that
was also going.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
On back then? I Wilson, I couldn't sort of understand.
I knew that because we were were pretty poor to
on my mom's side, not on my dad's side, but
that didn't translate across at all. And then half of
my mum's family had money too. So I always used
to say, there's two sorts of horse people, really rich

(15:03):
horse people and really poor horse people. And some of
my cousins were really rich ones and we were really
poor ones. So I always felt like I've missed out,
and I was always yeah, I was always missing out
on everything all the time, and it was always every
everybody else got stuff ahead of me.

Speaker 4 (15:20):
Where Yeah, So when I hear you talk about being
like Raj on Big Bang Theory, can't talk to girls
unless you got alcohol. So to me, I'm just there's
a ton of anxiety. There's a ton of fear that's
basically running in your subconscious, not good enough, shame running
in your subconscious, and that's just creating this almost frozen

(15:45):
state as soon as you're in certain settings that this
is probably going to lead to rejection. I don't know
what to do, et cetera. So to me, there's a
huge internal at a subconscious level, there's a huge internal
emotional war going on in a battle that you're trying
to fight and overcolm and compensate for by positions and title,

(16:09):
et cetera. So just let me clarify and add something.
So you've talked about kind of mom and dad and
where did they get divorced or did they remain married?

Speaker 3 (16:21):
What?

Speaker 4 (16:22):
What was their marital status?

Speaker 1 (16:24):
No, they got divorced when I was I think I
was three and my sister had just been born as well.

Speaker 4 (16:29):
Yep, So how do you think that affected you looking back.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
I always tried to run away from one to go
to the other, then run away from the other to
go to the other. My dad always attributes to how
I turned out now to my mum and not himself,
you know, and bet it was. He used to have
us every other weekend when I was younger, and it
was always to the footy. He'd be drinking with mates

(16:57):
and it would be his ten bucks, a go get
yourself a pack of chips are pie, and I don't
come back when the game's over, you know. That was
that was sort of how the weekends were, and I
was always needing to impress. And it's something that I've
always had to work on, even even up until you know,
quite recently near the end of my my therapy journey.

(17:20):
It was something that I really had to work on
it just and people pleasing was always a huge thing
for me as well, always that to fixate. You know,
when I did the chores, well then it was always
you know, good job, but when it wasn't that, it
was yelling and screaming, and you know, the punishment never

(17:40):
fit the crime sort of thing.

Speaker 4 (17:42):
I think you said it well at the beginning. It's
not like it was this huge abuse or huge trauma
in your childhood. It's just all these little, we subtle
things that piled up to create not fitting in, not
feeling like you're worth anything or belong And when you
step back and start to look at kind of how

(18:04):
it was demonstrating itself in your life, you just like
to go and be alone by yourself. You're getting shunted
back and forth, and so you're always feeling a bit
like a burden or you're just not nothing's predictable or stable,
just one piece after another that's leading to this very insecure,

(18:24):
anxiety filled young man that's desperately wanting to be loved
fit in all of that. So that and I've seen
it with hundreds and hundreds of young men led into
first belonging to a group, having the uniform, the positions,

(18:45):
all of that external validation, but then more and more
into kind of the criminal lifestyle. As you look back,
what healthy things did you have to shut down inside
of yourself to fit into that world?

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well? I had massive amount of repressed anger, huge amount
of suppressed anger because whenever I showed that when I
was boundaries weren't a thing that there wasn't any of that,
And when I did try and assert those that were
shut down very fast, so it was easier just to

(19:23):
you know, shut those down.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah, I think that.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
That was probably one of the main main things I
remember during my just a bit of a candid talk
with my psychologist, which was pretty rare, she said, we
actually need to put a little bit of narcissism back in.
You know, you need to take the next year and

(19:47):
sort of focus on yourself and don't feel guilty about it.

Speaker 4 (19:51):
Right, how much did you have to start shutting down,
like conscience, empathy, love, even like genuine love, other emulsions,
what was happening inside of you as you got more
and more into that world.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
Affection was extremely hard for me. For me so like
touching and things like that, hugging. Hugging always felt like like,
don't hug me, this is uncomfortable, And I think it
was like I couldn't allow that in like I couldn't
accept that that was legit and except for a partner,

(20:35):
And then it was then it was extreme. Then it
was like you've sat on the end of the couch.
Did we break up? Like why are we touching right now?
I couldn't stand it from anybody else, but with a partner,
it was I'm glad that that's over with, but that
that was that was a pretty extreme one. And I

(20:57):
always just used to want to help every body, So
I don't know, oh, was the nice guy, right, So
I don't know if like how much actual real empathy
was there for that, whether because you know, when when
you're helping people to get something in return, it's not
that's not yeah, So I would say that that probably
was shut down.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
I never thought of that.

Speaker 4 (21:19):
So what I'm suspecting and kind of hearing is there
was just this huge shame underneath that I'm not good enough.
Nobody's going to love me if they see the real me.
So I got to kind of have the titles in
the position and the uniform and all of that to
be good enough to me. That's going to make you
really vulnerable to codependency. So you can't touch anybody else.

(21:42):
But as soon as a partner comes along, it's a
You're sucked into. Somebody loves me. All my needs are
going to get met. Finally, I'm going to get the
love that I've always craved for, and so I'm going
to just basically sacrifice myself holy to them so that
they're going to heap all their love on me. Can

(22:04):
you just kind of describe a little bit of that
early dating relationship journey for you and what it was
like and the coredependency elements.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, looking back, I've told this candidly a couple of
times as well. I remember my first time in the
psychology session and we're talking about partners and stuff, and
I was like, I'm pretty sure all of my partners
have had BPD, and I was like, don't worry, I

(22:38):
can see the pattern, you know that that extreme highs
and lows.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Was just so addicted to it.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
My mantra was always the highs of worth the lows,
and I think that started very very early for me.
My first two girlfriends probably definitely had BPD, and I
think that that can become an addiction in itself, because,
like the saying is, nobody will love you harder than
somebody with BPD, you know, and that's that highly emotional state. Now,

(23:09):
I think you're attract where you sort of are at too.
And back then I used to think that I was
the most logical person in the world, But looking back,
I probably wasn't yeah exactly.

Speaker 4 (23:21):
I think you highlight something with your drug alcohol usage
and being kind of into that lifestyle and pretty heavy
partying mindset that comes often with the biker world. But
then it wasn't that somebody all of a sudden said
you better quit or else. It was just you were

(23:42):
kind of in this reducing gradually just as you were
starting to heal and grow in other areas, that all
of a sudden it became less important, less of a
priority to one day you wake up and oh, I
don't think I need this anymore. And so I think,
to me, that's almost how I would describe a healthy

(24:04):
form of home reduction for people that you're not making
quitting the focus. You're making getting healthy the focus. And
as you make that the focus, the rest the unhealthy
just starts filing away naturally. How have you seen that
workout in what you do now as you work with

(24:26):
people that are struggling with drug and alcohol abuse.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
A lot of the focus still, Like I remember we
spoke in Sydney and like you were saying, we're Australia
is pretty like far behind the States and Canada.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
And.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
It really is.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
So there's still a lot of focus on the symptom.
It's like, you know, don't do drugs. So I get
a lot of people referred to me and they come
into our groups and all they're focusing on is don't
do drugs, and they're white knuckling it, you know, just
holding onto that steering wheelchair and it doesn't last. So
we don't mention it at all. I carry that from

(25:07):
my own journey. I try not to mention it. If
you come off chops and that you can't be in
the group, and that has the best effect. We've actually
only had one person in a few years we've had
to say couldn't come in because they are inebriated. It's
what we the way we do it. It's just people

(25:29):
become something that everybody loves to do. They love to
come and train, and they make all these healthy networks
in the group that all hang out outside of the
group because we do all these mental health barbecues as
well so for the community, and they all start volunteering.
So I basically took everything from my journey and sort of,

(25:50):
how can I put this into a little program that
might help others in that way as well. And that's
how and that's exactly how it's worked, but there is
still a lot of focus on that, so we try
to do it differently and not focus on it at all.
A lot of places will do classes and where they'll
sit down and they'll talk about why you shouldn't do
the drugs and you shouldn't do this, and shouldn't do that.

(26:12):
I'm like, well, how about let's talk about the reasons
why you do them in the first place and not
even worry about them, because that'll change. If we change
that root on the tree, the rest will change. So
I do see that that works really well, especially when
you start creating the healthy networks, the connection the community.
And then if you're working on the mind while exercising,

(26:33):
I just find that to be unbelievable. So I'll do
like a little talk on something like a core value
or a limiting belief or something like that during session
while I've got people on pads, I'll try and give
it an anger out of them or see where they are,

(26:53):
ask them some questions that they might not usually want
to talk about, and then they leave feeling great, and
then you know, get back back into There's only one
day in between, and then there's other classes in the
night that they can come to as well, So there's
always something that they can come to fantastic.

Speaker 4 (27:08):
So I want to go kind of two directions now,
kind of in the recovery journey, so to you, the
therapy with psychologist became an important part of starting to
get honest with yourself dealing with underlying stuff. But I
think martial arts also played a big brawl in your

(27:29):
recovery journey. Can you just talk about that?

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, So I've been training in various doles since I
was six, and then I started going to Thailand and
I used to say, every single time I started to
feel bad in myself, I just fly back to Thailand.
So I had about twenty mid life crisises around the
age of eighteen to twenty five, this full redneck country
boy flying over to Thailand. And this is back when

(27:53):
no one was really doing it, you know, back back
that long ago and everyone does it now, but back
then wasn't sort of done. And I used to get
a kick out of that to come back and everyone
be like, we a kick to keep boxing in tightly
and wow, you know that that was a big hit
of validation and stuff for myself until it started to
wear off and then I'd have to go again. So

(28:17):
I think that the martial arts kept me out of
a lot of trouble. I could have been in a
lot more trouble than what I did get into, and
I could have been in a lot more a lot
worse place mentally. And I think that training in all
the martial arts and being pushed so hard in the
martial arts really really held me in my rehab. So
I always had a weight problem, and that's due to

(28:39):
childhood as well, with the Dutch side of the family.
They were weird sense of humor, Dutch people, and they'd
always poked me and pulled my skin and be like, oh,
you're getting a bit fat, getting a bit fat, and
that made me so paranoid about it. That become my identity,
trying not to be fat, and I ended up becoming
fat and then actually got some sense and photos of

(29:01):
myself a few months ago, and I wasn't fat at all,
So that was I was looking at it, and I
was just looking at these photos and I was like,
that's not how I remember myself at all, and not
what everybody used to tell me. So I used to
try and outtrain what I eat but my food was

(29:23):
love and that was my emotional regulator because I was
trying not to be fat, and the only way not
to do that was I was focusing on not eating.
What did I want to do?

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Eat?

Speaker 1 (29:33):
No self control, stressed, eat vicious cycles. So I used
to try and outtrain my diet, and then when I
was starting to overcome the injuries, I made up my goal.
The doctors told me that I would never do these
type of training again, and that was a red light,
well green light for me to say.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Watch this space.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
As soon as any of the doctors any time I
was injured said you're never going to be doing that again,
I was like, yeah, watch this. And I used to
see people that were clearly in learned helplessness from injuries.
Because I started all my rehab in groups and that

(30:15):
style of mentality, I've found it very very hard to
to relate to. And I still found myself going come on,
Like even in the groups, I wasn't leading them, I
was like, come on, we can get out of here,
we can do this, we can do this, and I
was like, this is what I should be doing. And
so all of that whole journey that like it all

(30:38):
let into what I'm doing now. Everything, I'm so glad
that everything happened exactly the.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Way it did.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
Is yeah, it's amazing now. And when I started training people, well,
so I set up a gym, and I set up
a canceling office, and I'd get people in the canceling
office and the majority of them all like ADHD and
all of this sort of stuff, or they've been through
some extreme domestic violent sort of situations and they couldn't

(31:09):
make eye contact. It was very uncomfortable for them, so
they were always off to the side, or if it
was a kid, they'd be jumping over the back of
the chair trying to you know, playing with something and
trying to make an aeroplane out of some paper, you know.
And I was like, how am I going to get
them engaged? And I was like, do you want to
do some boxing? And as soon as I started with

(31:31):
the first participant on the pads, it was like instant relationship,
you know, in the therapeutic relationship, sometimes it can take
six weeks to build that trust, eight weeks, you know,
to really build that trust. You run out on a
football field and your coach yells at yall, he's your dad.
In the first ten minutes, here's your life coach, here's
your career coach. That sports coach is automatically you trust them.

(31:56):
So I found that it just shortcuted every everything. And
then that I found because you're doing that top down,
bottom up sort of at the same time. So I
always said, it's like this knife, you know, it's every
time we talk about it, it's blunting, and so your
story is becoming easier to tell it. And when i'd
have them on the pads, they just start talking and

(32:19):
I'm like, oh yeah, and we'd get into it and
get it until later on and then I'd stop and
then I'll go, oh cool, tell me more about that.
Yeah cool, tell me more about that, and we'd it'd
start just coming out, and then when I saw it
was getting too much, I'd give them like a stupid
confusing combination, you know, we try and get that, have
a laugh about it, make it a little bit lighthearted,
or get them to go lift something really really heavy,

(32:42):
or get the smash ball.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Every single person that.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
I had in that had BPD, all they wanted to
do for whole sessions is a smash ball, and they
just wanted to try and break it like that was
that was one thing. But the exercise for me during
the canceling and starting the group, it was the group
part that's important. So I did a lot of rehab
on myself, but I also went and did group stuff

(33:09):
and that was super important for getting them healthy connections
and healthy and that created healthy networks and that created opportunities.
But that was all done while I was doing therapy
and watching your videos back to back to back, binging
them every every single night.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
So two things that I really love about what you're doing.
So a lot of people in culture today, if they
heard there was a complex trauma program that's let's say
twelve weeks long, you wouldn't get them there. You wouldn't
have hope getting them there. And it's just like it's
too intense, it's too long, or it's I don't have

(33:47):
complex trauma. I don't. That's not my issue, my issues,
my kids, my marriage, et cetera. So you realize you've
got to get to the trauma, but you got to
come at it through a whole bunch of different So
it's like you created this funnel that all leads down
to complex trauma, but there's twenty different access points. So

(34:08):
it could be martial arts, could be mental health, it
could be just connections in a group. It could be
riding a motorbike, whatever. And what you're doing in all
those connection points is not just leading them to trauma.
You're also starting to meet their twelve needs connection, caring
for them, letting them talk, letting them be authentic, validating them,

(34:32):
just on and on. You're beginning to create this surrogate
family where their needs are actually met. So I just
love that about what you're doing, Troy, And I think
to me, that's the model that so many people see
as valid. It just takes a long time to get there.
Can you just talk about some of the different inroad

(34:53):
opportunities in the funnel that you've created for people in
Southern Australia.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Sorry, We get some of our participants are on the
National Disabilities Insurance Scheme, so they will get a support
worker because that they might have crazy anxiety and they
just can't you know, So we give them a support
worker who then works on the Maso's hierarchy of needs basically,
So this is how we sort of roll. So they'll

(35:19):
rock around to the house. I'll sit down with them,
what are your goals, what do you want to achieve?
What are some things that you need in your life.
Then they'll go check the cupboards, you know, and if
they've got no food, while there's no point to come
and just bringing them to and getting smashed in the gym,
so they'll take them down. We'll hook them up with
a heap of food and then we'll sort of work
work our way up, and that's sort of how we

(35:40):
run everything. And then when they build the relationship up
with the support worker, the support worker is usually like, hey,
do you want to come down to this barbecue that
they have every Friday? You know, we'll just stand around
and have a chat and stuff like that. So then
they'll come down and then you know what, man doesn't
like talking over a barbecue, but we do females only
the female do a high tea, so that's on the

(36:01):
Mondays and so that will they'll come down. I'll check
it out, and then I'll see the gym and they're like,
oh cool, what's going on here? They're like, oh, well,
if you come you know, if you come an hour earlier,
we all trained together, you know, and they're cool, I'll
come back.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
I'll come back.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
So then they come with the trusted support worker that
they've built up a relationship with, and then they come
into groups and the idea is, so we do some
heavy lifting. We always hook people up with the psychologist
so they're getting the heavy lifting done. They come to
groups where we do some psycho education, we talk about things.
If things come up, we talk about it. Otherwise it's

(36:38):
just men having a laugh, you know, and just but
everybody there is for there for the same reason. So
it's a place where you come in and it's like,
what are your goals, what are your wins for this week?

Speaker 2 (36:48):
You know? What did you get done? You know?

Speaker 1 (36:50):
And it's just all I don't want to say like
positive psychology or anything like that, but it's it's all
about wins and what are your goals and where you're
getting too And if someone's going through something tough, we'll
unpack that as well in the group and then everybody
will learn from it. And that's all done while we're exercising.
So on Mondays that's a weight stay. So that's where

(37:14):
I've got some modules that if anybody wants to do them,
they can. They're free, so that's they can go learn
about themselves so it's like a little complex trauma twelve
week course that I've written, so if any of them
want to do it, they can, and then we unpack
a bit of that.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
What people learnt.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
So while we're doing weights and then the next two
days usually keep boxing, so they're fairly intense, but that
gives me a chance to get them on the pads
in a circuit. So I've got one on one time
with all of them from there. So now there's got community.
They're getting the trauma work done pretty well, and then
the support worker will be trying to get them kicking goals.

(37:52):
Now in their real life, we'll be trying to hooked
up with a job or volunteering whatever it is that
that they're trying to achieve on the out side. So
then you've got it's like a behavior change model almost
and then so that's so it's sort of linked with
Maslow's and a behavior change model with like some Eric

(38:12):
Ericson's like Timeline, and that's sort of what we do,
and it's all based around the aces. So once they
start kicking goals, our goal is so is to make
them so they don't need a support worker anymore, so
that they can come to group by themselves, and then
that usually happens reasonably reasonably quick. Some people, you know, can't,
like they've got some pretty severe disabilities and they can't

(38:34):
walk or something like that, so they need help to
come in a wheelchair and stuff. But yeah, for the
most part, and then from there, once they start, you know,
absolutely killing it, usually they'll either start studying and become
one of our support workers, or they'll start studying and
get a job elsewhere, or they'll get a job somewhere else,

(38:57):
or they won't need to come to a specific gym anymore,
and then they end up going to mainstream and it's
always sad, but it's always a massive win when we're like,
you know that, that's a win, you know, like we've
done our job excellent.

Speaker 4 (39:11):
So martial arts is kind of your mean somatic tape
therapy stuff. Do you do any other somatic therapies like yoga,
animal therapy or art or yeah, stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, Yeah, we've got yoga on Wednesday nights. That's free
as well. We've got an amazing yoga teacher from India
donating her time, so she comes in and that class
is full every time as well. But so at the
end of every men's group, well at the end at
the end of every keep boxing group. I don't tell
them this because they wouldn't come same as the trauma stuff,

(39:47):
but they all do mindfulness without knowing it. So what
we'll do is we'll finish the session and then I'll
take them through a cool down. So we usually start
standing up, you know, getting the risks arms, and then
I'm like, okay, everyone, come down to your now, we're
going to do some stretches here, stretches here. Now, I'm like, okay,
let's lay it down. While we're laying down, let's do
some stretches here. And then I'll say now while we're here,

(40:08):
you can have your eyes open or closed. It's completely
up to you. And then I take them through ten
minutes of guided meditation mindfulness, and then when we get up,
I'm like, now you can achieve this level of groundedness
if you're feeling really quiet right now. You can get
this any time, just practice. So I try and take
them through a different exercise every time, so it's not

(40:30):
just breathing. It'll be like breathe in, close your hand,
breathe out, open your hand, or breathe in turning your head.
So there's always I don't want them stuck in here,
so I'd always like to give them something to do,
and then we'll give a usually talk about some sort
of emotional regulation, and then I tell them to go.
We've got a big whiteboard, it's called the Gratefulness board,

(40:52):
and then they all have to go right down three
things that they're grateful for and some goals that they
want to achieve for the week, and they want to
set an attention for the day. And I thought that
that would be really really difficult to get people to do,
and they all do it and they all love it.
Some draw pictures there, so we have to clean that
off every week. It's pretty cool. So at the end

(41:13):
of every session, we do yoga, we do mindfulness, we
do gratitude practices. We also do mixed boxing classes as well.
We do support work, so we do a night out group.
So a lot of people, especially with NDIS, they're two
and disabilities. I say, everyone deserves the right to be

(41:33):
able to go out nightclub and when they're young. So
we've got a nightclub in group where they go out
with their support workers as a group and we take
them to see bands, playpool, take them out for dinner,
things like that. We've got a soccer group. We've got
a Dungeons and Dragons group that runs twice a week,

(41:53):
combat archery that runs every week as well. But all
those programs don't just run like that. All the programs
start with an activity and it's always a fun activity.
So let's say soccer, So they go play soccer for
a couple of hours. So and that most of the
people in these groups have autism and comorbid with some
other sort of things, and they don't like looking at

(42:16):
each other. They don't know how to talk to people properly.
So what we do is we burn all that off.
We've got to get rid of all that anxious energy
by doing this fun sport. Might be paintballing. Oh, we've
got a fishing group as well. So they get this
activity to bond over for a few hours. And then
we take them shopping. So they get a budget and

(42:38):
as a group they have to work out a meal
that everybody likes. And that's always hard, especially people with
those sorts of you know, disorders and things like that.
But so they've got to not only do they have budgeting,
they also have to start thinking about what other people's
needs are and be compassionate to other people's tastes and
things like that. Then after that they come back to

(42:59):
the center and they do a cooking class with one
of our chefs, and they all cook together, and then
they'll sit down to eat together. So by then they've
really done three activities to bond over. They've all build
a little bit of confidence up, they're all getting a
little bit tired, but they've also burnt off all the anxious,
you know, all the bad juju.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
And then they all eat together.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
And then while they're eating together, we'll take them through
again something maybe smart goals, may maybe limiting beliefs, something
like that.

Speaker 4 (43:31):
Fantastic. So I'm going to turn it over to Andy
in just a minute, but I want to kind of
have you talked to two things. So number one would
be what you see has kind of been your biggest
challenges in doing this work, difficulties, challenges, and then secondly,

(43:52):
just talk to us about some of the life changing
victories you've seen in people that have entered the journey.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
The biggest challenge for me at the start and it
still is now to some extent, is we'll get wins
with some of the kids that we've got, and then
we send them home to the environment that made them,
and that can take its toll. It can be very,
very frustrating. We've got I'll tell you one story in particular,

(44:24):
and this is pretty common. We run these cooking classes,
they do them all the time, and this one kid,
I'd worked with him personally for like six months and
he ended up becoming an absolute gun cook, like just
just a really good cook. And then he wanted to

(44:44):
make something at home for everybody. So he went back
home and started started cooking, and his mom just went off,
like crazy off, like you can't do that, you know, well,
because he's got a disability, and you wouldn't know if
you met this kid, you wouldn't know he's got like
level one autism, you know. And yeah, and that the

(45:06):
next couple of weeks that I worked with him, he
didn't even want to cook. And I was I was like,
we just had this amazing progress, he had the confidence
to finally do something for himself. Then you just shot
him down. So that that's always been sort of hard
to deal hard to deal with, But in the same token,

(45:27):
I was so proud of him. For having the confidence
and stuff for doing it, you know. So it's those
wins I love when I have. I used to be
a massive rocker when I was a kid. I used
to rock the cop that hard. It used to put
a hole in the wall. So I remember always my
parents having a stuff pillows behind my cot so I

(45:47):
wouldn't damage the walls. And I remember I was talking
to a participant once and they were saying first time
they ever told anybody. They were like, oh, I have
to bang my head to go to sleep. And I
was like, I used to do that too, and that
he went from thinking that he was crazy to think

(46:07):
and he was normal like it. I know you're not
supposed to talk about yourself when you're talking with people,
but I find that is sometimes some of the validating most,
especially when it's just a little tidbit like that. But
it was just like in an instant, it went from
being I'm crazy to I'm not crazy. And I remember
shutting the door when he left, and I was walking

(46:28):
up the hallway doing these ones, like just absolutely celebrating.
And I really love when participants walk in the door
and they say, thanks so much for your service. But
I don't need you anymore. That's that's the highlight for me.
That's that's that's what I'm after. And so I find

(46:48):
that sending him home to the environment the problem, a
big problem, and especially in the mental health industry to
these days, there's a fine line between support and enabling. Yes,
and we tend to sit on enabling these days. The
best review, the best review I've ever had of my

(47:08):
business was that their complete helpeelong aren't babysitters, Like, if
you don't want to achieve stuff, don't come to us,
because we'll push you. Even if you yell at us
and hate us and stuff, Yeah we will. We'll get
you there even if you think you can't do it.
You know, baby steps all the way, but you'll be

(47:30):
doing stuff. And I think everybody, I think codependancy is
rife in this mental health space. People don't want to
lose clients, they don't want to lose participants. They don't
want to do that when the goal is the exact
opposite of that, It is for them to walk in
and say sorry, I don't need you anymore. And that's

(47:51):
something that really does drive me nuts a fair bit
is when I see other services keeping participants for years
and years and years, and I'm like, what are you doing?

Speaker 2 (48:03):
You know, And.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
There's a lot of toxic people in this industry and
I find that also hard to deal with. And the drama,
all the services backstabbing each other, and you know, it's
it's shocking. Our service keeps keeps to ourselves pretty much.
I've got a few select people on network with but
for the most when I when I did decide to

(48:27):
start networking last year, I was just blown away by
all the backstabbing and this company is like this, this
company is like this, and I was like, aren't we
all trying to achieve the same goal. Yeah, So I
find that extremely hard, but you do find some good
ones that do have the right intentions.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
But LOVE like how you're bringing in the top down
and the bottom up. You know, we focus on that,
but we usually focus it on separate and so I
like how you're bringing that in together. At one time,
I want to I want to step back a little bit,
and I think there's some some places, you know, where
things are maybe well we don't have a full understanding,

(49:04):
but if you could talk about belonging, and I want
to ask you about belonging, but from several lenss like
your own belonging that you were searching for when you
were younger, that you found through the clubs. How they
provided belonging for you. And then I see, like you're
creating belonging. Now, could you just talk to us about

(49:25):
like that identity and belonging.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
It's very funny. Every single Outlaw motorcycle club member that's left, retired,
been kicked out, whatever. When you ask them if they
still miss it, a lot of them will say no,
I'd never join again. But the one thing that they
all say is they missed the clubhouse.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
It was.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
The clubhouse was the fortress of solitude, you know. It
was the we used to joke and say, the clubhouse
knows what you need. If you're feeling down, you can
go there and within ten minutes another brother will walk up.
Like it really And I don't say this lightly like
I don't tell people to go join outlaw motorcycle clubs

(50:08):
by any means, but there are some really good aspects
of it. Is sort of like a men's shed when
when you're there. My experience in an outlad motorcycle club
was different to a lot of other people's, And I
mean that hugely. My experience was very, very different. My experience,
for the most part was pretty good and I learned

(50:29):
a lot from it. I'll take you through a few
scenarios that I do like to talk about, and again
the caveat is I'm not telling anybody to go join
an outlawd motorcycle club. These are just some things that
really helped me. The first time was there was a member,
a life member, really big, scary, big scary guy, and

(50:51):
I remember we were in a meeting months and there
was like forty members in the room, and this member
cried his eyes out and for about fifteen minutes you
could have heard a pin drop every member. I just
stopped and just listened. And after he'd finished, everybody went
around one by one and gave him a hug and

(51:11):
a kiss, and I was just like, WHOA, I can
do that. I was like, that was really really eye opening,
and from being like a really redneck country boy, you know,
the only thing men do. We shake hands, and all
of a sudden, I'm in this club with all people
from different nationalities and stuff, and it was so awkward.

(51:34):
So when you're in an outlaw motorcycle club, you have
to if you walk into a party and there's fifty
brothers there. You have to say hello to every single
one of them first before you settle down and do something.
And you have to say hello in a certain way.
You have to hug them, you have to give them
a kiss. And this just seems so foreign to me,
but that helped break some of my touching issues and stuff.

(51:58):
I was like, Wow, I'm hugging these guys, and these
guys aren't giving me, giving me shit for being too fat,
Like it's all, hey, brother, you know, love you? And
they're all telling me they love me. I'm like, what
you know, It's sort of like you just hear it
enough you start believing it. And then when when I
got injured, I remember I was living with one of

(52:19):
the most respected and high level bikes in Australia and
he's someone that I really looked up to, really respected,
and I just had my injury and I was trying
to put my socks on so I could go out,
and I just I just couldn't manage it. And I
felt so emasculated and so useless and that, and he

(52:41):
walked past and I was like, hey, bro, can can
you put my socks on?

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Please?

Speaker 1 (52:46):
And he almost scoffed at me, like I can't believe
you just asked me in that manner like, but he's
just like, of course, bro. But it was just the
look on it. It's burnt into my breain. It's one
of their This is one of the life changing.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Moments for me.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
This part right here is when he was just like, yeah, bro,
of course, you know, put my socks on. I gave
me a pat on the back and walked off like
it was absolutely nothing. And that was like mind blowing
to me. I was like, and it is now. I
still think about it occasionally. I was just like, that
was mind blowing that, like I didn't feel like a

(53:23):
burden at all, Like he was just happy to help.
And then when I was really going through all my
stuff and I couldn't walk, they were there to pick
me up and drive me around where everyone to go.
There was always somebody with me. When I was in hospital,
there was a member there with me all the time,
twenty four seven. They wouldn't leave my hospital bet in
case I needed something. We were talked about the suppressed
anger so near that I was about a year out

(53:46):
of leaving the club, all my anger was coming up,
and I had a lot of it, and you take
it out on those you're closest to. And I remember
threatening a few few members in my own club, telling
them I was going to come and baltim I was
going to come kick their doors in, and I was
just I was I was losing my stuff. My sister

(54:07):
told me they're going to lock me up if I
didn't settle down, like all this anger was just coming out,
and she's like, you're going to end up in a
padded room. But one of the one of the brothers
called me the sergeant at the time, and I was like,
and he's like, what the hell is wrong with you?

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Man? And I was just like, and I just went off,
I'm going.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
To come to your house and kick your door in.
You know, We're just going to And he goes, come, bro, come,
he goes, Come, we'll punch it out. He goes, and
I'll give you a hug and we'll talk about it.
And I was just like. I was standing out the
front of the Geelong Hospital when this is another one
of those moments that I was made me go, what
this So you don't talk to an officer like that?

(54:46):
And this guy's like What's what's going on?

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Bro?

Speaker 1 (54:48):
He's like, I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to understand.
You're not in trouble, You're just not acting like you
usually are. We're all worried about your what's going on?
And I just broke down in the middle of the street,
just like my eyes out, just like, bro, I don't
know what's going on, like this and that, And they said,
you know what, takes six weeks off, don't don't worry
about coming to the clubhouse unless.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
You want to.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
Just just just chill. And there was a member at
my house every day to make sure I was okay.
And those moments really changed everything from what I'd gone
through when I was in childhood. It was, Wow, it
doesn't matter what I do, these people are here for me.
That fear of abandonment, Like I was trying to push

(55:32):
them because I'd just been hurt by my partner at
the time, extremely hurt, and I obviously had like a
crazy amount of fear of abandonment, and knowing now that
they weren't going to run away no matter how hard
I pushed, it shattered my whole perception of some things,
so that there were a couple of really pivotal points

(55:53):
in my in my healing journey, and that really helped
settle me down. And when I started from the Outlattle
Motorcycle Club stuff and started, I started this yes Man theory.
I become a trial you know the movie with Jim Carrey.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
Yes Man.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
I tried it, but I didn't. It was My rule
was it had to be healthy, and I had to
try something once a week, and it had to be
some of it had to be just pure fun. Not
all of it was allowed to be like you know,
trying to develop. Some of it just had to be
pure fun. And I come up with this idea of

(56:33):
doing a try, becoming the trial king. So I found
all the free trials that I could find, and I
took advantage of them all. So in the in the
first year, I did, like I think, I went to
like thirty seven concerts, crazy PTSD, exploding in my head,
intrusive thoughts, couldn't get rid of them the whole time
I was out, But I went out.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
So I went out.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
And then I tried learning a language, learning a guitar,
I tried karate again. I tried, oh, just a huge
array of different things and After a while, I just
felt like I was okay. I didn't need to belong
to anything. I transformed and built sort of my own

(57:19):
identity all this work in therapy and then with doing
this becoming the trial king for a year, it really
changed my life dramatically, and I started. I started volunteering
at two different places. That was, if anybody's watching and
you're looking for some meaning and purpose, go volunteer at

(57:40):
a community center. Go do something like that. My first
thing is always see a psychologist, join a gym, but
do a group session, do group sessions, and go volunteering.
Three easy steps to get you on your way. And yeah,
I just started doing my own thing. Sometimes I still

(58:02):
if I get stressed in my everyday life, I still
fantasize about the old life, you know, the life of
no stress and fancy free and all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
But I.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
Try and remember the bad things and then try and
be grateful about what I'm doing now bring myself back around.
So I don't know, does that answer you sort of
question a little bit?

Speaker 3 (58:22):
Yeah, yeah it does. And that's something that like I've
seen from you talking about that. It's you know, looking
at our social needs for connection and belonging, and what
you're sharing as well is like the space for intimacy
and vulnerability and some elements of a healthy caring family.
I want to I want to follow one thing you've

(58:45):
said here of like the you know, the old life
not caring, but there's can you talk a bit about
responsibility and the effort that it takes to lead a
healthy life and to walk to walk a healthy path.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
You go through the first couple of years wanting to
not be in first player mode. You want to go
back to autopilot. So it's one of those things that's
like when your eyes are open and now you're actually
in control. It's so tiring and exhausting and draining and

(59:29):
I have to adult now it's I have to make
all the decisions. Before it was just running on being triggered.
I guess you and you're not in control, you're not
making choices. Life is just a breeze. But then you
get to a point where that's not true anymore. And
then but then you know it's it's always a working progress,

(59:49):
and you get the best of people get triggered and
get stressed, and sometimes I think about all the responsibility
that I have now running to organizations and I've got
one hundred and fift your participants and you know, twenty
support workers, and oh, I've got so much to manage.
But I've got good people in place. But then when
I've got a super stressful day, I'm like, remember when

(01:00:12):
I used to just ride motorbikes and go to the gym,
And then I have to visit I have to that
cognitive dissidence starts slipping in and I have to I
have to start reminding myself, no, no, no, no, how to
hang on, chill out. Remember the time that this thing happened.
Remember that time that you got a gun pointed at you,

(01:00:32):
Remember that time you're nearly set on fire because somebody
was throwing petrol on you. Like, do you remember that
stuff too, because that stuff's easy to forget, especially when
when this part is stressful. If there's something shiny and
happy over here, you remember that stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Yeah, So.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Managing the stress now is is like I trained in
the groups as well, and I trained myself. I do yoga,
I do tai chi coups like once a month as well.
I try and get out and do a lot of things.
But for me, late this last year and the year before,
not only because I'm injured, but because I'm also forty two.

(01:01:15):
I can't train two or three times a day anymore
as a coping skill. So I've also just lost fifty kilos,
so I can't eat as a coping skill either.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
So for me, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
Been really exciting and uncomfortable the last twelve months. So
when something does trigger me, like I have been fairly
triggered this well, fairly stressed, I want to say, in
the last week. But I've known it, so I've made
sure that I've got things in place to look after
it and to manage it, because if I don't, I noticed,

(01:01:49):
so I'll start wearing odd socks. That's the first giveaway,
if I start wearing odd socks. But yeah, I can
just physically know. And now I'm actually enjoying feeling very
uncomfortable because I know I can sit with it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
I know it's not going to hurt me, and I
just sit with it, and then eventually, you know, it
takes care of itself. It's not all just about going
helpful over now. So that's how I manage all the responsibility.

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
Yeah, for the listeners, I want to just take what
Troy shared with us and try to put it into
a context that I hope will be helpful for people.
I think there's a bit of an issue developing today,
and that's people, when they realize they have a problem,
they go looking for this complete, perfect recovery package where

(01:02:38):
I'm going to have perfect therapist, perfect program, healthy family,
healthy connection, and so they kind of just go shopping
for this perfect program. What I love about what your
story and what I've seen in hundreds and hundreds of
people is most people do recovery by piecemeal. You you

(01:03:00):
realize you got a problem, you go get a therapist,
then you listen to some videos. Then but you're still
in an outlaw motor gang, and that's meeting some of
your needs. It's not a perfect family. It's got a
lot of really unhealthy pieces, but you're getting a little
bit of what you've always longed for that wasn't met
as a child. And so a lot of your recovery

(01:03:22):
is in a very imperfect environment with very imperfect people.
But yet it's bringing changes inside of you at a
deep level that's healing some wounds until you get to
the point where you go, I need to connect to
myself and I can find my identity and then I
don't need that to get my sense of belonging so much.
If you didn't just stick at it, keep working away

(01:03:44):
at it, and it wasn't all clear black and white
as to what you needed to do, you just kept
doing what was in front of you that you thought,
this is what I need to do today, And you
didn't see all of the flaws up front, but yet
you you just kept going and then more and more
pieces fall into place. And I think, to me, that's

(01:04:08):
what most people have to realize that recovery is not
going to be a perfect package handed to me. I
have to have the commitment to just keep plugging away
at what's in front of me with the knowledge that
I have, with the resources that I have, and gradually
it will unfold into a fuller and full of recovery.

(01:04:29):
And I think your story illustrates that well beautifully. And
I think with that, what you're trying to do now
is create a better package that people can now walk
into that is balanced with fun and work that comes
at the deeper issues through less in your face, sledgehammer

(01:04:50):
over the head. Let's have a workout, Let's lift weights,
and we'll just chat a little bit. I think that's
just beautiful and I'm just so with what you're doing,
so so thank you for that. And I just again,
I think your story is more the norm of what
recovery looks like for people than just oh yeah I

(01:05:12):
went to a treatment program and everything got fixed. It's
just not not how it works. But anyways, Andy, you
had something else.

Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
Yeah, I think kind of with that what you shared
there really showed kind of one of the important mindsets
and recovery of you know, in the past, like kind
of that seeking comfort and then maybe ignoring the pains
that are going in that seeking comfort world to right
now being in a space of sitting in the discomfort

(01:05:42):
or embracing the discomfort. Would you be able to talk
more about like that attitude shift in yourself and like
maybe how others could could find that for themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
Yeah, it's it's always been a thing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
When always younger, I used to autolize John Wayne and
I used to escape into all of his movies. I
thought he was the perfect man, and that's what a
that's what a man should be. And I just used
to escape into movies and video games when I wasn't
out in the bush riding horses.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
You know, I was, I was all I was doing.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
I remember we used to go to the video shop
and rent ten movies every every Friday Saturday, and I
just binge watched them all weekend. That's that's all I
would do. It was either that or out getting drunk.
And everybody knew. All my friends knew that you could
come to my place and I'd have John Wayne Sunday.
They'd just we'd be watching John Wayne movies all the time.
And I used to escape a lot. And then I

(01:06:40):
found binge drinking and that allowed me to talk to girls,
and that allowed me to be funny and that so
then I used to escape with that and always motorbikes,
and you know, it was always sort of risk taking
behaviors or you know, going to Thailand and kickboxing. It
was all. It was all escapism. And when I went
through those really traumatic experiences all in like a space

(01:07:03):
of a year, I was like, I can't keep doing this.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
I was.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
I was in a bad, bad way, you know. I
remember crying all the way to the doctor's office, sucking
it up just to walk in the office. And as
soon as I sat down, he saw and he touched
my arm and I just broke down, like I had
a nervous breakdown, and I was just and I was like,

(01:07:29):
I cannot keep living this pattern. I just something has
to shift. And so it was it was the pain,
That's what it was. It was the pain that made
me change. And often oftentimes we have to hit rock
bottom before we before we make that change. It's ridiculous,
but we have to. And I used to be very,

(01:07:52):
very very externally focused, you know. And I think that
that was a massive shift as well, because when when
I always talk about we're healing from like narcissistic abuse,
I always say there's like three types, three stages. There's
where you focus on the narcissist and why did they
do all the things that they did, because that gives

(01:08:13):
you the closure because.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
You're not going to get it from men.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
So you need to know why they did that they did,
and you need to work out if they are really
a narcissist, because if there's something else, there might be
a chance you can get them back. You know, there's
always that hope. So then it goes from there to
the relationship, and then you work out how did dynamic
work between both of yous. Why did they pick me

(01:08:37):
and choose me and everything when it should be? And
then it goes to hang on, why did I allow that?
And then that goes into the third part where you're like,
what is wrong with me that I got with somebody
like that? And for me, that was the catalyst, that
was the conduit of my change, was that relationship, because

(01:09:00):
that was the exact process that I know that I
went through. And from there on it was just all
about looking internally and working out what the hell was
wrong with me? And that's how I fixed it. Well,
I've fixed it, but that that's how I started working
on myself by just self reflecting because I did not

(01:09:20):
want to go through that ever again. And that actually
helped me start getting out of my own learned helplessness,
I guess, and that that victim mentality, Why does everything
always bad keep happening to me? I'm just the good guy,
always trying to I'm the nice guy, you know, And
and then I started to work out why, what is

(01:09:42):
the underlying reasons of being the nice guy and all
of that, and that just and that shame changed my
whole perception and then I started taking account of I
remember this the psychologist said to me, do you lie?
And I was like, lie, I never lie. I'm the
most honest person in the world. I've got truth tattoo
right here. I've never lied in my life. I'm never

(01:10:03):
about lying. I was driving home in the car on
the way home, and I was like, why the hell
did she ask me that? And I've got this. I
do a therapy session and I would just think about
it until the next therapy session, and she knew that
I was like that. So for seven days I was like,
why did she ask me that question? And then on
the way driving back there, it dawned on me that

(01:10:24):
holy shit, I do lie, I do manipulate, I do
do all of this stuff. And I never sat down
on the chair and I was like, I do lie,
I do. And then so it was all this self
reflection that that really changed everything it was and was able.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
For me to do that. It was just just.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
Started taking accountability and responsibility and being honest with myself,
you know, and then started to learn how to set boundaries,
which is always a hard thing to do because I
was I was severely codependent. The funny the funny thing
was with the codependency thing, the only time. And I
think that this happened to the majority of people. When
they date somebody in that narcissistic realm, they actually put

(01:11:05):
so much trust in that person that for the first
time in their life, that anxious attachment is actually pretty
much gone because they trust them so much. And it's
that trust that gets broken that shatters your perception of everything.
And that's one hundred percent what happened to me. It
was like the first time in my life actually absolutely
trust somebody with everything, and that then that's what broke me.
And then that, yeah, that pain was it was the

(01:11:30):
intrusive thoughts that I couldn't get rid of.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
It was the it was like I'd be.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
Talking to you guys, and there would be this explosion
going on in the back of my head. It went
for a better year, like I ended up getting pretty
bad suicide ideation and things like that because I just
could not get rid of it. Remember I said, oh,
I be to like thirty six concerts in a year.
The whole time I was at these concerts, this was
just going on these intrusive thoughts. The whole time I

(01:11:56):
was volunteering intrusive thoughts, trying to trying to have a
conversation with somebody. I couldn't keep up because I just
couldn't get rid of these sorts.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
And I knew that I.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
Just had to work on it to change because I
just couldn't take it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
Yeah, today, when you work with clients, is there is
there anything that you say or that you do to
help them kind of reframe to move from that space
of the learned helplessness or the victim mentality to being
more self reflective and taking that towards that internal autonomy.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
I'm pretty lucky that because I do have a social
media presence a bit, and that's how a lot of
people find me. They do know that I can be
very direct, I guess you'd say, so. I tend to
just tell people how it is when I'll try and
help them find it for a while, and then if

(01:12:51):
they're just going around in circles, I'll be like, well,
how about we look at it from a different perspective,
and then I'll give them an example of something. So like,
I don't know if you saw the video I did
a couple of days ago on patience if during childhood,
you know, if you know you get promised this and
it doesn't and get promised and promised and promised and promised.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
And you have to wait.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
If you have to wait seven days and it doesn't happen,
you learn that if you have to wait for something,
it's not going to happen, you know. So I'll tell
them a story like that that's similar to their to
what they're going through, and then try and help them
find it that way. But then sometimes I am very
very directed and I will just I will just be like, man, like,

(01:13:33):
how would you feel if that was you, if somebody
was doing that to you? You know, I am pretty
And that tends to work pretty good with the style
well with the sort of participants that I get. But
we do do a lot of reframing, and because when
anybody first starts coming in our gym, we've just got
a culture of being positive. Now it's just built up
over time. So we get people come in and they'll

(01:13:56):
be like, oh, this happened on the weekend, and one
of the other boys will now say, yeah, but what
come out of that now you're here, you know, So
it's it's sort of I don't even have to do
it the majority of the time. Now it's just all
the other boys. It's just it's caught. It's all caught
on the way we do things. You know, there's certain
things every gym does, you know, like that everyone knuckles

(01:14:19):
when they're leaving, you know that that sort of thing.
It's just every every it's just gradually built this culture
of let's focus on on the positive and reframe.

Speaker 3 (01:14:29):
You know. With with that reframe, you know, some of
it starts to come from you know, you talked about
the gratitude on the board earlier, how and you also
mentioned that when you were younger. I forget exactly how
you said it, but like being logical, is there anything
that you help people to shift them from that brain
center to be more emotion centered or heart centered, to

(01:14:52):
come out of the thinking and then to to feeling
like that gratitude more.

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
I do it when I tr them into doing mindfulness,
and I usually tell them a story that I that
I sort of had for new people. I remember when
I first started seeing my psychologists used to say to me,
where do you feel that? And I'll be like here

(01:15:19):
and she'd be like no, Like do you feel like
that anger in your throat? Or do you feel something
here getting butterflies? And I'm like no, it's here. I
don't know what you're talking about like that, radars not doubt.
I don't have any feelings, there's nothing going on. So
when so I try and do this psycho education where

(01:15:40):
I'll tell people something and then I'll try and take
them through it later on. So that way, that was
the one thing that was that I wish was different
in my healing. But I'd be I'd leave the office
and I'd be like, I feel great, I've unloaded heap
of stuff, I feel awesome. Two days later, I'm crying

(01:16:03):
on the floor of the shower, going what is going on?

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
I was just feeling so good, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
And then if somebody had has said, you know, well,
that's because this is happening in your brain and that's happening,
and this is happening, and you know, in a couple
of days you might feel shit. You know, you're not
going to feel good forever. It's all going to come
back and stuff. I think that would have made my
experience a lot less daunting. So in the gym, I
try and explain things to people in a In Australia

(01:16:30):
we say like a bogan manner. It's like an easy,
easy way to understand so that when they're going through
things they're not they can think back, Oh, I remember
Troy said that this would be happening, and this would
be happening, and then it's not scary for them, and
it just helps people sit with it. So I've got
this example of a jellyfish as your brain. So I'm like,

(01:16:52):
when when you're when you've been through something traumatic when
you were young, your brain's like a jellyfish, you know,
and it's cut all the tentacle off, you know, your brain.
Your body's just gone, I can't deal with this shit anymore.
I'm just going to tap out. I can't deal with it,
you know. And so then on from then on you
become an overthinker. Now you've got to outthink everything because

(01:17:13):
you can't feel it in here anymore. And they're like okay,
And then I'm like, now when you're healing, you're going
to start getting a tentacle growing back down into your
body and it's only going to give you what you
can handle, so don't worry, but it is going to
be extremely painful. So one tentacle is going to come
down and be like, here, have that bit of trauma,

(01:17:35):
and then all of a sudden, you'll be like, holy shit,
You'll be crying on the floor of the shower. You'll
be upset for a while, and then all of a sudden,
you'll deal with that, and your body will be like,
you have a couple of days off, have a break,
and it's like, you're stronger. Now, let's give you some
worse trauma to deal with. Let's let's have a have
it that now. And then you're like, I was just
feeling good for a couple of days. Now I'm on

(01:17:55):
the flora the shower requiring again. So I take them
through this process a little bit, and then I'm like,
but don't worry, because eventually you'll decarpmentalize, and everything will
start coming back to normal because you've got all these
boxes in the brain, and once you start unlocking all
of these boxes, it'll get easier.

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
I said.

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):
The good days will start to outweigh the bad days.
And then you'll be crying for three days a week
instead of five days a week. And then that'll happen
for a while, and then you'll cry. You'll go through
this thing called catharsis, and then you'll cry for two
days a week, and then one day a week, and
once you get to this sort of point, I want
you to start allocating time to cry. You're not going

(01:18:36):
to be crying all day anymore. You're allowed to cry
for this amount of time. And then I don't know,
I might teach them a bit of self tapping and journaling,
because that's one thing that really helped me when I
was at my absolute acute stage. I used to a
lot myself half an hour every night before bed. I
actually got addicted to doing this for a little bit

(01:18:57):
because I used to have I always had trouble sleeping,
but after I cried my eyes out, used to have
the best sleeps.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
So I'd sit down and i'd.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
Journal, and I'll journal and journal and cry my eyes
out until I was like time, that's enough. And then
I'd start doing some self tapping and all of this
sort of stuff, and I'll be okay, how can I
make this a bit more? And then I used to
hug myself and tell me I love I love myself,
I'm here now, I'm never going to leave you again,
and I'm here for you. And I used to go

(01:19:27):
through this process. So I try and I don't do
anything in the gym that I haven't done myself. So
I take them all through it, and that's sort of yeah,
how I segue into all of that. So I give
them a little bit of that head knowledge in a
really weird, weird way that they can sort of relate
to and non clinical, I guess you'd want to say.

(01:19:48):
And then yeah, and then from there I'll take them through.
I'll trick them into doing some yogurt and some mindfulness
and some gratitude on the board and all that, and
then at the end of it, I'll be like, do
you know what you just did? What you just did mindfulness?
Like no way, I feel great. And I was like, yeah,
I know, how cool is it? And on there you
just did gratefulness practice and like what And I'm like yeah,

(01:20:08):
And I'm like, you know, it's really easy to reframe
stuff when you're getting stressed and stuff like that. Sit
with it for as long as you can. Everyone makes
a mistake of you know, going ooh, I feel a
bit shit. I better go do something to fix it,
like Nana. Sit there for a while and deal with
it until you can't then go do something what.

Speaker 4 (01:20:28):
I again, if I can just say that another way,
Troy to me it's what you're doing is really being
a dad, parenting in a healthy way to people. And
so you're, like to a child, you normalize, this is
what growing up is like this, this is what's happening
in your body. This is what's happening. So you're teaching

(01:20:49):
them and little we blurps, but you're normalizing that. You're
not doing anything wrong. This isn't You're not a weird
or this is just part of what everybody goes through.
It'll get better and you can expect this over time
to begin to happen. So you're preparing them for all
of that, and to me, everybody needs that in recovery

(01:21:13):
because each new change brings about all of these weird
feelings and almost its own pain and stress that it's like,
am I doing it wrong? Is this going to go
on forever? And you just need somebody to normalize it? No,
this is what happens. And so like to me, you're

(01:21:33):
reparenting people and providing what they didn't get as a
child to the point that they can start giving it
to themselves. And children don't need to be sat down
and given a one hour lecture, they need a sixty
second little hey, let's talk about this, and let's do
it in a fun way, and let's make be creative.

(01:21:53):
And all of a sudden they realize they've learned a
lesson and it wasn't boring and they didn't have to
sit still and all of that. And to me, it's
the beauty of learning to reparent people in a non
clinical tape way.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
I thought that I was always going to have trouble
getting them to do them on from us. I thought
that was always going to be a fight. And I
think part of that feeling for me was a bit
of self conscious because I had to lead the group
in breathing. That's so daunting when you first do it,
like being regulated and confident enough to be able to
take people through breathe. You have to make the noises

(01:22:30):
so they can do it with you. That was really hard,
but I found the better. I got it that the
guys were all like, well, he's doing it. He's an
ex bike and you know, it's only been over the
last couple of years. I didn't have that big plat
down my back and you know, the big mohawk thing
going on, and so I tried to maintain that sort

(01:22:52):
of image for a little while because so that if
people were like it was a bit of myself as well,
holding onto a bit of identity. But I found that
if people were like, look at this guy. He's six
foot two, you know, he's one hundred and forty kilos,
and he's talking about breathing exercises, like is an ex
gang member and stuff, So that if this guy can
do it, I can do it. If he's not worried

(01:23:14):
about looking like an idiot, I don't have to worry
about looking like an idiot. And now the guy's like
it's one of the favorite parts if for whatever reason.
On one day, there was a day last week where
we did a lot of arm stuff, so I took
all the boys through a walking up and down the

(01:23:36):
gym and we're doing some breath work. But while we're
walking and stuff, and they were and I was like,
all right, that's it today, boys, And I'm like, oh, well,
we're not. We're not doing the laying down breath work
that's our favorite. So I was all right, well we
better go do it then, you know. So it's it's
really cool to be able to to mirror that, and

(01:24:01):
that's one of the coolest parts I know that when
I finish it, and I'm like, guys, you can stay
there for a little bit longer. You can you know,
we're not closing up. You can keep in this relaxed
stay for a little bit longer, work your way up
when you feel like it is to go down to
the board. Most of them will lay there for another
thirty seconds. Some lay there for another minute, And I'm like,

(01:24:22):
how cool is that? Like you would expect they'd be
too self conscious to whatever, but they're all just in
the moment. And I think a lot of it is
because I'm so confident when I do it, they mirrors that. Yeah,
I think that's super important. It's just something that I
take note of.

Speaker 3 (01:24:42):
And I'm like, that's so cool, Troy, Like this has
been such a powerful conversation. And before we close, like,
is there anything that you would like to leave or
be willing to leave with our listeners, especially those who
maybe kind of feel stuck in their own healing journey,
you're stuck where they're at, or maybe that they don't belong.

Speaker 1 (01:25:01):
If you're feeling stuck, it usually means that there's a
choice that you need to make, and you probably know
what that choice is and what the while you sit
there not making that choice, You're going to continue to
feel uncomfortable until you make that choice. If you're one
foot in, one foot out, you're going to have a

(01:25:24):
bad time. You need you need to make the choice
either either way. And the longer you sit on that,
you're just going to be so uncomfortable, it's not going
to feel good. You're going to be so conflicted. And
if you put your trust in people a lot of

(01:25:44):
the times, and I didn't want to say reach out
because it's just every everyone says it, you know, but
if you do reach out, nine times out of ten,
if you reach if you look for somebody healthy to
reach out to, they're going to offer you some assistance,
you know. So exercise is probably the most accessible and

(01:26:11):
helpful thing that you can do right now. It's tangible.
It's something that you can do right now to start
helping you diet, exercise and if that's what you have
to start with to get yourself in a good enough
headspace to get to therapy or something like that, and

(01:26:32):
please go to therapy, don't try and avoid it with
woo woo stuff and spiritual bypass. They're great as additions
everything can be an addition to therapy, but please don't
skip the therapy. If you're in a vulnerable state and

(01:26:52):
you go to these sorts of places, bad things can happen.
Please seek evidence treatments. That's a little pet peeve of mine.
And you can start you're healing now, or you can
start it next year. The only difference will be is
an extra year of suffering.

Speaker 2 (01:27:14):
So really.

Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
Put some put a big lot of thought into it,
and just take the step, because it really is. I
can never express I'm not articulate enough to express how
good life is on the other side of trauma when
you do work through it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:35):
It's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:27:36):
In the last five years, I've achieved every single goal
I've ever had as a kid, like every single I'm
having to make new goals now that's an issue. Try
and find some more meaning and purpose because I've just
You can rebuild your foundation any way you want. If
these are some characteristics and some traits that you want

(01:27:57):
you can work on that. Your foundation has just been added.
You're in a hard place, you can build it back
up and build it up into the person that you
actually really want to be. And yeah, I can never
articulate how good. It is coming. It's going to hurt.
It's going to hurt like help, but it's going to

(01:28:18):
be the best thing you ever do for yourself and
the people around you.

Speaker 3 (01:28:21):
And lastly, Troy, what are you working on right now
that you'd like to share and where can people follow
you or get involved with the work that you're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
So all the gym stuff and all the support work,
all the respite care that we do as well, we
do some stuff like reintegration from prison and just we
do a lot of stuff. We do support programs and everything.
All that can be found at Complete Help Geelong. And
we've also got the Mental Health Militia. So with the

(01:28:51):
Mental Health Militia, that's a charity. It's for the donation
side of things and grants. And our gym's completely free
by the way, there's no charge. That's completely free. We
run a men's group three days a week, one of
them's got a barbecue, a women's group two days a week,
one of them's got a barbecue. Who run a mixed
boxing group, and we also run a yoga session and

(01:29:13):
we're about to open up for two hours on a
Tuesday for just anybody can We've got a personal trainer.
We'll be sitting there. If you want to come in
and use the wait till the gym, you're more than welcome.
So our goal with the Mental Health Militia is to
make it a free community gym one hundred percent where
there's a counselor in every single session and a PT

(01:29:35):
so it's not going to be a canceling session, but
you can come down and have a chat if you
need so at the moment, every single class does have
a counselor in it, so I'm pretty proud of that.
And we also, through the Militia, we do events, so
we will come and put a barbecue on at anybody's
event and will supply a mental health team. So if

(01:29:58):
anybody wants to come and pick our brain while we're
cooking the sausage and the sausages are free as well,
yeah they can. And we do try and sponsor some
organizations in that as well that are doing some pretty
cool stuff. And that's the Mental Health Mosha. You can
find me on there all on TikTok, Instagram and the Facebook.

Speaker 3 (01:30:19):
Roy Try and Tim thank you both for this deep
and grounded conversation, and Troy were really grateful that you
joined us and that you brought you're bringing your full
self to this space. There's a lot of there's a
lot of into like leadership that you show. I know
you you sawt a lot of leadership positions in the past,

(01:30:39):
but here like your own healing journey kind of shows
us self leadership. And I'm glad that you're you're able
to share that with us and with others and to
everyone who's listening. No matter what you've lived through, healing
as possible. You're not alone and your story isn't over.
And thanks for spending this time with us today.

Speaker 2 (01:31:01):
Jeez, thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (01:31:02):
And I would like to add one more thing, sorry
if I can, But it was like eight years ago
I started following Tim Binge, watching all of his stuff,
and then he called me and we had a chat
on the phone. That meant a lot, and now I'm
here on the podcast, Like, you really can do some

(01:31:24):
extraordinary things if you put your mind to it and
you work through the trauma, you really really can. Watching
your videos change my life dramatically, Like it was one
of the one of the main things that I did.
I Binge watched every single video you had, so you
really changed my life as well.

Speaker 4 (01:31:43):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:31:47):
Thank you for joining us on the Time with Tim podcast.
If you'd like to share your own experiences or have questions,
feel free to email us at podcasts at Tim Fletcher
dot caa. Want to learn more about complex trauma, subscribe
to Tim Fletcher's YouTube channel for past lectures and is
Friday Night Tim Talks. You can also connect with us

(01:32:10):
on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and tik tok. Looking for more support,
we offer programs and courses to help with healing complex
trauma and recovering from addictions. Visit Tim Fletcher dot ca
a to learn more or send us an inquiry. We're
here to support you until we meet again. Take care

(01:32:31):
and thank you for letting us be a part of
your healing journey.

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S3E03 | The Road Back: Healing, Brotherhood, and the Power of Honest Change w/ Troy Koerntjes

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S3E03 | The Road Back: Healing, Brotherhood, and the Power of Honest Change w/ Troy Koerntjes