S3E04 | Find What Makes Your Heart Sing with Morag Clark - Time with Tim Fletcher

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I was still in the concept with a lot of
people have that boundaries are about me pushing you away.
A boundary is not about you. A boundary and I
really don't like the word boundary. I use the word
guidelines because of this, because people have bashed the word
because people believe, and I believed, that boundaries were about
me setting something to you. I'm trying to control you,

(00:22):
to get you to behave in a particular way, so
I'm setting this boundary against you. What a boundary is
is me looking after myself and taking care of my
own needs. So I for me today, when I have
to set a guideline for my life, whether it's an
internal one or an external one. When I have to
set that guideline for myself, I need to know what

(00:45):
need I'm trying to get met to hold it.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Welcome. I'm Andy Carlson and you're listening to the Time
with Tim podcast. Each episode, we explore the impact of
complex trauma through the personal journeys of our guests. Along
the way, we'll connect with experts and individuals who share
their unique perspectives, insights, and practical tools to help you

(01:10):
on your healing journey. Welcome back to time with Tim.
I'm Andy Carlson and today I'm joined by Moregg, whose
journey is as powerful as it is inspiring. She grew
up in Australia and today we'll cover her childhood story,
struggles with addiction and her healing journey through Twelve Steps
and Tim Fletcher's Lift program. Morg is bringing this work
to a new audience later this year. She is launching

(01:31):
a new React group in Brisbane as part of a
pilot program. She brings passion, storytelling, infectious joy and deep
hope for others who may see parts of themselves in
their journey. Moregg welcome. It's so good to have you
here today.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Thanks Andy, thanks for asking me to come and do this.
It's a real honor to be part of the Tim
Fletcher organization and to share my story with people. Hopefully
it's going to help somebody along the way.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
I thought that we would start with maybe a couple
of lighthearted questions, just to get the conversation flowing, and so,
knowing you, I made these particular for you and so well,
the first thing I want to ask is you know
you always say find something that makes your heart sing,

(02:17):
and I would love to know what's been making your
heart sing lately?

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Lately, what's been making my heart seeing is lots more dancing.
So dancing is something I really love to do, always did.
It was probably something I had as a child that
was one of my escapes. You know, I just put
on music and I would transform into a beautiful ballet

(02:43):
dancer or rock star or something. You know, it was
probably a fantasy world. But the dancing itself gave me
a sense of freedom that you know, probably now what
I understand is the somatic connection to releasing the trauma
that was going on for me as a child. But now, yeah,

(03:03):
today it's just about freedom. Like you know, I go
to all sorts of different stuff when it comes to dancing.
And I just a very good friend of mine said
to another friend, if you want to see more egg,
free take her out dancing, because I just lose, like
I just yeah, become so light and it makes my
heart sings wonderful.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Is there any type of particular type of music or
genre that you really enjoy.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
I'm a bit of an eighties ninety kid, so okay, yeah, yeah,
the misspent youth was the late eighties, early nineties, so
I'm very much into you know, think about mc hammer,
Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson all their middle of the shuffle
and that's more egg on the dance floor.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
I love that. Yeah, I feel too what I think
about eighties like to me, there is something like really
kind of like loose and free of like people kind
of just just dancing to eighties music.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Absolutely, yeah, it's so much fun and people are more
relaxed and yeah, so it's kind of relieving my childhood again.
But I do have to remember now that I'm not
twenty five and that two three days later, I'm probably
going to be a little bit in pain.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Really really, so you feel it afterwards.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, if I dance the way I did when I
was twenty, body's a little older these days.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yeah, yeah, it's a little different experience.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, absolutely doesn't stop me though.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Well so, you know, since we're a community
that's focused on healing from complex trauma, you know, we're
not really afraid to dive off the deep end of vulnerability.
One of the things that I like to do when
when I go one on one with someone is to
just ask, what's a recent vulnerability you've been navigating today

(04:53):
or in the past few days. And since I'm springing
this on you, I can go first, and I'm actually
I'll actually like do this as a bounce off of
what you said. So, like, I grew up with a
lot of shame around dancing, and you know people have
that saying, like dance like nobody's watching. Well I couldn't.

(05:14):
I can't dance or sing alone in my room without
kind of still this like overriding shame. But that's been
something that over the last two years I've noticed I've
been like kind of increasing Maybe like four months ago,
i'd be like dancing with the you know at night
with the lights off in my room, so like I
can't see myself and I'm still imagining nobody can see me.

(05:37):
And I just moved into a new space recently and
it was like the middle of the day I had
the window open. There's like an apartment across the way,
so theoretically people could have seen in and so like,
so I felt kind of like the same amount of
kind of the shame as I did a month or
so ago, but like I could see I could tell

(05:58):
that like my window of top tolerance and my ability
to like not worry what other people are thinking but
and then also just to be in that, like you said,
this somatic, the embodiment is changing, and that's something like
I really I want dancing to be a part of
my life. And so it's something that I'm I'm excited
to be moving in a way where I just like

(06:20):
I kind of don't care as much what people think.
And then and I'm also like this like silly head,
which is caring a lot, I'm like kind of dancing
with it and not worrying about what it thinks as well. Yeah,
and so I think that's that's mine. And so I
was wondering about you. Is there something that you've been

(06:41):
navigating recently?

Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, there's always something when it comes to more, it's
always something, I guess, you know, I know we're going
to talk a little bit later on. You talked about
the in the intro about me studying you know, pilot
course here and of the REACT program. That's probably one

(07:08):
moment like at the moment I'm really putting myself out
there doing it under my business name, kind of connecting
with the Tim Fletcher organization, having that association with him
as I have for the last you know, four years
that I've been doing the work for him, but really
like launching it here. It's a bigger pool, it's a

(07:31):
bigger network, is more competition, there's all that. And for
a moment I I when I when Tim was actually
an austraa and here and I started talking about this,
I was like, oh, I don't think I've got it.
I don't know if I can do this all on
my own. You know, it's it's one thing to do
it where it's already pre prepared for, you know, with

(07:54):
you guys in the organization, but me doing it all
by myself and you know, being the face of reacting
Australia being the face. So I'm out there like you know,
it's all open for more egg. So it's a little
vulnerable doing that. Is it going to work? Is it
not going to work? You know, is it going to

(08:15):
be successful? What does success look like in my world?
Those sort of stuff. I did my first intro workshop
the other day on it. I've got a couple of
this week and you know, I had five people turn
up and out of the five, everyone walked away going,
oh my gosh, we all need this. My whole family
needs is. So, you know, the vulnerability left when I realized,

(08:41):
even if I've reached one person by doing this, it's
why I'm doing this. So my vulnerability of putting more
egg out there again, putting myself out there again, it
kind of left when I know my purpose is actually
to be doing that for other people and not just
for myself.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, it's interesting, like as you're talking about it, there's
that stage of kind of like the thinking ahead, that
that what about, the what about and doubt, and then
kind of when your feet are really hitting the road,
when there's like some reality and like seeing the human
reaction to it, like the real reaction, then all of
a sudden kind of just changing something inside of you.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
Yeah. Yeah, and it does, it changes something inside you know.
One of the people, one of the people who come
was just a friend and I said, just come to
be a bum on the seat, Like I just need
I need to fill the room a little bit, So
come be a bum on the seat. Several people are
registered and and she was the one that was affected
the most. So yeah, know, so I kind of knew

(09:47):
she might be, but yeah, yeah it was like yeah,
she you know, the emotions come up, she could see it. Yeah,
So you know, this work is just the whole program,
the React program, the Online Lift program, the work that
Tim puts together. It's life changing for people. I haven't

(10:08):
met one person who does this work that doesn't have
a significant change in their life as they go through
the work, as they do it.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
It's like really beautiful that you're able to offer it
to your community, and not just kind of your the
physical space of your community, but also like people and
people who are in your network and in your community already.
I'm excited to chat with you more about that, and
I'd love to hear you know in this I know
that your story is a very transformational journey, and so

(10:41):
I was wondering if we could go back and if
we could walk through your story together, and so maybe
if you'd be willing to start us off by telling
us maybe about your your family, kind of like your
parents and your family background.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yep, absolutely So both my parents Gottish and Mum and
Day came to Australia on the ten pound boats over
sixty years ago now, and when they arrived here they
had my eldest brother and sister. So I have five
four siblings, two brothers, two sisters. So Mum and Dad

(11:22):
arrived on the boat. They land in Australia, had no
one here, didn't know anyone, whole new country, whole new
bunch of trauma, you know what I know today, saw
everything in their life real struggle. The work that dad
could get here was very different to what he was
doing in Scotland. Like in Scotland he wasn't doing very

(11:44):
manager jobs or you know, very little labor job where
here he became a bricklayer and so it was like
completely different work. And my dad did drink. Mum wasn't
aware has you know, had a substance abuse. Not my

(12:05):
place to label him an alcoholic. So he did have
substance abuse throughout my childhood and growing up. So there
was another aspect of you know, struggle for mum on that.
Like now she was on her own in a country
without any support, with a husband that wasn't present through
his through his drinking and raising the two babies. They

(12:27):
landed in Perth, moved to Sydney and then eventually moved
up to Brisbane. And when they moved here they got
they had my older brother and he's so there was
about five years gap between my older sister and my
older brother, then two years between my brother and myself,
and then two years between myself and my younger sister,
so we kind of were like two families, even though

(12:48):
only like seven years difference. There was a difference in
our age group in so like the three youngest ones
were one part of pod of the family and the
two oldest with the other pod. Mum worked a lot,
Dad drink a lot. There was a lot of unavailability
in the family, you know. And in saying this, I
don't want anyone to think I'll blame, blame or shame
my parents. I you know, completely understand where they come

(13:11):
from today and you know, love them dearly, have no anger, resentments,
nothing towards but don't blame them for anything that occurred
in my life because of what it's given me today,
the life has given me today. And I understand trauma. Okay,
hopefully I understand trauma of what I do, so I understand,

(13:31):
you know the impact of all that would have had
on my mum and then on my dad as well. So,
you know, so grew up in that, in that kind
of dysfunctional, unavailable household. School never really fitted in. I was,
you know, what they always called the black sheep of
the family. I was a rebellious In hindsight, everything makes

(13:53):
more sense, you know, in hindsight, I understand why I
was like that. I understand the trauma that was connect
to my childhood and why I was rebellious, why I
couldn't concentrate in school, why I always got in trouble.
I can see all that in hindsight. But in the time,
you know, I was just always in trouble. You know,
I had more days at the detention office than I

(14:15):
did at the school classroom. I didn't do well in
school course of that. Like you know, I've labeled it
myself as anxiety dyslexia. So whatever I get really anxious,
I can't focus, can't read. You know, if I was
a kid today, i'd have all the letters behind my name,
you know, I'd have the ADHD, I'd have all of it.

(14:36):
Thank God, I'm not a kid today. For me anyway,
For me and so growing up teenage years, there was
in my childhood there was sexual abuse from external parts
of external people in my life, and that had a
massive impact and shaped my life in lots or lots

(14:59):
of ways. Being in a home where I didn't feel
like I belonged and didn't feel like a connected And
this is all my perception of what happened. Whether that
was the reality, it was my perception as the child
growing up. The sexual abuse shaped who I was, who
I became, It shaped how I sought validation. It gave

(15:23):
me a misunderstanding of what love was, and then that
into my teenage years is what I ended up seeking.
You know, in the tem Fletcher program, we talk about
the twelve Needs. I'm a big, huge fan of the
twelve needs. It's something that I talk about time. I
know you and I going to talk about it at
some stage. And what I recognized today is the needs

(15:46):
that didn't get met for me when made my personality
and made my energy be somebody who sought a lot
outside of myself to get validation, to get attention, to
get love. And unfortunately the one person who gave that
to me, apparently who I saw that from, actually harmed

(16:08):
me and hurt me. So then that gave me a misunderstanding,
a confused outlook on harm and hurt and abuse and
sex was what I needed to do and needed to
have to be loved, which is not true.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Did I ask you with that? You know, gobor mate?
He always goes back with people and he asks, you know,
was there anyone Were you able to talk to anybody
about that at the time.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
No. No. The one person I did talk to about
it was a school friend and eight year old school friends,
you know, I think something's funny, that's not funny. She
ended up telling somebody else. So then it was then

(16:55):
spread around the school that you know, Maury has sex
with every body. So and that was at the age
of eight or nine, so it was pretty hard, you
know when I think back now, So there was a
very strong label of me being young, and and I couldn't.
I couldn't talk to I couldn't talk to anybody at
home about it. I might have been able to, I

(17:19):
just didn't. I didn't. Yeah, you know, again, hindsight, I
see that I didn't feel safe to talk about it
to anybody else. So, and it wasn't until I was
in my late teens I actually started talking about it
with people.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
You know, you talked a little bit about kind of
like you know, this experience teaching you kind of your
own values about like love and getting attention, like you know,
when you were that age, when you're you know, like
this eight year old this little child, Like, how did
you like make sense of that experience at the time.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
Didn't you know, I didn't understand what happened. I didn't
understand why it happened. I probably disassociated in the moment.
I couldn't comprehend. I couldn't comprehend what had happened, Like

(18:21):
there was just no You know, as a child, you
go out and you ride your bike, you full off
your bike, and you go, oh, I've hurt myself so well,
I went down the I went down the hill too fast,
and I fell off the bike and I hurt myself.
So that made sense, you know, that sort of stuff
makes sense for an adult male to harm a little child.

(18:44):
It didn't make sense. It didn't make sense because I
didn't understand what happened, what was actually happening to me,
like the actual act, the sexual act itself. Couldn't comprehend that, like, oh,
I might have been seven, I can't remember five, six,
seven something in that age. I think about seven. I
couldn't comprehend the actual physical thing that had happened to me.

(19:09):
But then I couldn't comprehend the after effects. So you know,
the feeling of his manipulation afterwards, his grooming, afterwards, the
paying me off, gave me money, gave me lollies, hences.
You know, a sugar addiction started at a very young
age because of you know, connected to this trauma. There

(19:32):
was all that that was connected to it. The not
being able to tell or be open with anybody, not
having someone that I felt safe enough to say this,
this man just hurt me kind of made me see

(19:53):
that the world was really unsafe. But again, hindsight, I
didn't know any that. My behavior just changed dramatically as
that child. And what I understand today is sometimes you know,
people's behavior changes in a way where they are sexually
abused that they go completely within whether it's because of

(20:13):
my personality type and I'm a pretty big extrovert, or
because it finally felt like somebody you knows. As wrong
as the act was, I finally felt loved and again
my perception, I finally felt somebody cared for me, even
though the act itself was horrible. So then that created

(20:34):
a space within me that I continually just looked outward
to try and get that validation, to try and get
that filled. So I was always looking for someone to
rescue me. I was always looking for someone to save me.
I was always looking for you know, the nighting shining
armor to come and you know, be my soul, you know,

(20:57):
save my soul. What I getting rescued from. I don't know,
Like as a child, cognitively I didn't I don't understand,
but that was just the feeling inside that I just
always needed to be saved.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
Mm hmm. So there was something, Yeah, a lot of
like confusion and kind of difficulty processing and understanding, and
then this kind of this need for external like what
would you say, so looking for this rescuing, this kind
of external valuation. Are there other things that you believed

(21:31):
about your worth as a child?

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, I had a lot of feeling unworthy. I had
a lot of you know, I was a carrot, not characters,
like a little redheaded, freckle face, bright green eyes. Yeah.
I see photos of me now as a child, I think,
oh my god, you're gorgeous. She was such a gorgeous
little girl. But at the time I wasn't, you know,

(22:01):
I was, you know, a skinny little bean that would
just run around, that run around all the time, high energy,
like I always have really high energy, red hair, freckles,
blotchy freckles, you know it like so I was. I'd
never thought I was an attractive girl. I never thought
I was an attractive child. I was an ugly little kid.
Kids would tease me at school. My name itself, like

(22:23):
Morag wasn't a name you heard, you know, at school,
and fifty years ago it just wasn't a name common
in Australia anyway. So lots of like everything about my
identity seemed wrong. When I was growing up, everything about
me just seemed like I wasn't I didn't fit. I
didn't fit in the world. I didn't fit with the

(22:44):
cool kids. I didn't fit with the bad kids I did,
you know. I wanted to be cool, but being cool
and I had to be bad, but I was scared
if I got caught, I'd get punished. But I'd try
and me bad, and you know that wouldn't work. I
wasn't smart enough to be with the smart kids, the
athletic kids. I was a little bit with. I was
a little bit athletic growing up up. Some of that energy,

(23:04):
but I never it's in my worth and my value
of myself was close to zero growing up, Like I
didn't have any so that that one thing that made
me feel worthwhile became an existence for me. It became
a drive for me to keep proving that this was
part of who I was. And I guess that then

(23:26):
led into you know, the pain of that just led
into the next stages of my life, which was then addictions.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
And Yeah, I was going to ask you, like how,
like how you started coping with with that pain. But
before I do that, I actually want to just kind
of check in, as you know, as you're as you're
talking about this, kind of going back and thinking about this,
like what you know, with all the work that you've
done on yourself so far. I love that you're saying

(23:55):
that you can look back and you see just the
beauty of this little girl. What what comes alive for
you today as you as you share this experience and
you and you bring this experience up again.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
How much I've healed Andy, Like you know, when I
think of that little girl, it's almost like a separation.
I remember the first time I did my story for
Tim and I watched it after he ate it. I
didn't want to see it till it was ed, and
I remember watching it and I cried. I cried for

(24:27):
that little girl. I absolutely cried for her because it
was like, I'm not that person anymore. I'm not that
I'm not that brokenness anymore. You know, still few wounds
that have band aids on them, but I'm not broken
the way I was broken as a child. And absolutely

(24:48):
the joy of knowing, like going through everything I went
through and knowing today that that little girl today is
now loved like she is nurtured, she is loved she
and by me, you know, and the shifting changes in

(25:10):
who I am. Um hm, it's almost like it's a
it's a it's a it's a it's a world away,
it's a lifetime away. It's a it's another universe of
person like sliding door stuff. It's not it's not who
more egg is today, Like it's not who I am today. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
I love that you're able to take care of yourself
so deeply and in such a way just to like
I can I can see as you're speaking like kind
of like just the fullness of your It sounds weird
for me saying, but the full the fullness of your
love for yourself, like not in a but it's like
there's this there's this beautiful kind of fullness and in

(25:48):
your expression as you as you talk about that and
talk about your healing. So I want to I want
to ask then, you know, so, yeah, how did you
start coping with the pain in your teenage years? You
talk to a little bit about addiction, like were there
other like body image or relationship issues that played unto
this as well?

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah? You know, I pretty much have had every addiction
you possibly could consider, except gambling. I don't gamble. I
always blame it on my Scottish heritage that I'm too
tight to lose any money. But that's not true. I
know lots of Scots to gamble. I think, you know,

(26:29):
when I'm looking back and looking at all my stuff.
My very very first addiction was approval seeking and attention seeking,
you know, constantly wanting people to pay me attention, which
then led into so I mentioned sugar addiction that was
there very early. I could reach the cookie jar, I

(26:51):
couldn't reach the bottle of alcohol, you know, growing up,
So it was my second. My approval seeking was my first.
My sugar addiction was my second. Teenage years, I got
into smoking cigarettes, taking, you know, playing around with drugs,
mostly soft soft drugs like smoked a lot of pot,

(27:16):
played with some drugs, but a lot of drugs did
nothing for me. So you know a lot of my
stuff was connected to the attention seeking. So unless I
got a ten, if I you know, got bombed out
and sat and did nothing and numbed out, then it
didn't feed the attention the attention drive in me. So
a lot of my drinking really took over. Probably started

(27:38):
drinking in my teenage years, you know, blue light disco,
went out, got drunk with girlfriends, drank some really cheap,
nasty champagne's you buy in Australia. If anyone who listens
to this from Australia, you know, passion pop and it's
you just don't buy it two dollars a bottle, really
expensive champagne. So you know, drank that at a school dance,

(28:03):
and it changed who I was. I went from the
ugly redheaded girl to being the prettiest girl in the school.
And I could dance, I could talk to the boys,
and I could flirt and I could do all those
things and I got attention. So it fed both of
those things. And you know from that I didn't start
drinking really until I was say fifteen, So it sounds

(28:27):
like really old, but you know it's still very young.
And I started working so I could buy my own
alcoholic I do my own things. So I was and
then I was just chasing trouble. Like wherever I went,
the addictions, the trouble, the chaos was there, the drama
was there. My family tried to save me and rescue

(28:47):
me at times. I remember my brother in law of
the time came and picked me up from an apartment
that just a young girl shouldn't have been living in,
and I was like ran away from home and stayed
in this place that was, you know, fifteen times worse
than where I was living at home, you know, And
he come and took me home. And my older sister
did the same. She took me out of workplaces and

(29:09):
got me jobs in different places to try and help
me get away from the people who they thought were
the influence. Where you know, really the influence was me.
I was always the problem. So I got into really drinking.
I never you know, people get misunderstand people and misunderstand
what alcoholism is, and I think, you know, it's the

(29:30):
twenty four hour days. So the person who drinks all
the time, that was me I was still a binge drinker.
I was twenty five when I got sober through you know,
twelve step programs, so and so. I only drank for
twelve years, but it was enough. It was enough Emotionally,
I couldn't go on anymore. I was done. I was spent.
It was kind of like, you know, if I keep

(29:52):
doing this, then I'm going to die. So there was
a real there was a real intervention for me with
what I now understand is my understanding what God is
in my life. And then the next path, the next
chapter of my life started.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Did I ask, could I just go back for a
moment and ask kind of like, you know, you're looking
for all of these things to kind of like soothe
or mediate this pain that you're experiencing. Are you able
to kind of like describe what that pain would have
felt like like if there's any like the somatic experience
of it or even the mental experience of it.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yeah, absolutely, I guess. You know, one of the things
that I recognize when you're not in it, you can
see how it did affect So for me, I can
see how it was affecting me now, which I didn't
know what was going on for me. Then, you know,

(30:56):
when I learned about insecurity and fear and anxiety, I
realized I was. I was like that my whole life.
You know. I used to sit on a train going
to the same workplace for at least two years. Every
single day, same train, stayed station, nothing changed, and I
would count the stations every single day because I was

(31:19):
scared if I if I missed the station, I'd get
in trouble. So I was always in that state of
high anxiety, the state of high you know, fear of
what's going to happen, Always searching and looking outside of
you know, what's next, what's next, what's next? Never ever

(31:39):
being able to rest in my body, like never being
able to sit still or be conscious enough to be
you know, present with anybody else. Absolutely totally irresponsible, you know,
never took care of anything bills or that, never did
anything I worked the whole time that you know, I
was in my in and out of jobs. No drive,

(32:03):
no career drive, no nothing. It was just like get
I just need to needed to always get by. That
was my drive. A feeling of absolute deep loneliness and
emptiness is what I used to feel constantly like I
used to feel even in a crowded room, I would
feel completely alone. You know, I'd have friends and i'd

(32:24):
go out with friends, but even in that space, the emptiness,
the dirtiness inside of me. If people knew who I was,
people knew what I'd done, because by this time, I'd
taken full responsibility. Like I'd taken the blame for being harmed.
I'd taken the blame for everything that had gone on.
It was all my fault. If I would have been

(32:46):
a better person, none of this would have happened. So
that shame really started perpetuating my life. Total shame, you know,
completely unworthy, unlovable, unattractive, unl you not enough, and you
can put the dots alongside of it. And that was me.
I was never enough for anything or anyone. And that's

(33:08):
that's how I lived. But I wasn't conscious or awake
to any of that. It was just get up in
the morning, this is how you feel. Put your clothes on,
get to get doing what you're doing, get to the
end of the day, have a drink, and you'll be okay.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
A lot of like deeply subconscious, like danger and loneliness
and like all sorts of different types of shame. You know,
it's interesting that you talk about the you were to blame.
I don't know how to formulate a question around that.
I'm wondering, can you can you kind of share why

(33:44):
or how it came that you feel that you were
the one responsible.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah, straight after the incident happened. And you know, once again,
I'm just gonna preference is that I don't have any
reasons and against my mom. You know she did. You know,
people used to stay me all the time when I
was in my pain. Your mom did the best she
could with what she had, and I would go wasn't
good enough. She didn't do a good job. She failed me,

(34:11):
she didn't protect me. I was so angry. I was
so angry at her. But today I understand she did
she did the best that she could with what she had.
So her reaction to me when it happened was one
of frustration and anger. So when straight after the incident happened,

(34:35):
what stopped the incident was my mum was calling me.
So he was my next door neighbor and a grandman
who lived next door, and my mom was calling me.
So that's what stopped him harming me at the moment.
So then by the time I gathered myself and stopped
crying and went down to mom, her face, which I
know today was fear, but as a child was so.

(35:01):
My mom's face told me I was in trouble for
what just happened. Now, she didn't mean that, she didn't
mean to react that way. It came from a place
of fear because I think she knew that this man
wasn't somebody her daughter should ever be alone with, and
through circumstances, I did end up being alone with him.

(35:22):
So her reaction to me told me it was my fault.
It told me that it told that little girl she
did something wrong because now mam is upset with her. So,
you know, in all the work that I do with people,
one of the trainings I do with people is I
teach them to be gray rock. If their child comes

(35:42):
to them with any sort of harm or her, try
desperately not to show anything other than love, because the
child will interpret that as anger and fault. So so
because of that reaction, and again didn't know it at
the time, but that built on and built on and
built on, then you know, me becoming the rebel and

(36:04):
becoming the child who was always in trouble becoming the
person who you know, was always the one who was
to blame, you know, And I was made responsible for
my little sister and my brother and when things went wrong.
So there was a lot of responsibility put on me
young because I was capable, you know, I was capable child.
I was the one who could do things. And that's

(36:24):
you know, the family home joke is that, well, you
were always the one who did things more aank, you
had to look after them. You're the one we trusted.
And you know I didn't interpret it as trust though
as a child.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, now I was a sense of responsibility. I think
too it. You know, it's important, like how you well. First,
I can totally understand seeing a parent's face racked with
fear that would just feel terrible for a little child
to see. And then take that on. I see a
lot of times in healing, when we first started healing,

(36:56):
especially when we come up from a very shame and
blame based you know, the first step is we often
do then blame our parents, and so sometimes we get
to forgiveness like too quickly, and that may like slow
the journey down. But there is this this in between
place of kind of recognizing, you know, their own humanity

(37:17):
and their own accountability, but like beyond the blame and shame.
And I was wondering if we could take a quick
detour and ask about like your journey for maybe moving
from a more shame based and then externalizing the blame
to kind of moving into this place of accountability. And
what it sounds like is forgiveness as well or understanding

(37:40):
and the humanity.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
That took a lot of inventory process. So through the
twelve step work getting sober, doing a lot of In
the twelve step there's a step four step that's you know,
you deal with all your resentments with that dealing with resentments.

(38:03):
So in the twelve step world, I've done AA steps,
Allen on Steps, Code of Steps, slash steps over read
as anonymous steps. I like steps, I like twing steps.
So I've done all the programs that for each addiction
that I had. And so it began with that like
seeing in the in their language they talk about my part,

(38:26):
but it's really like I saw my responsibility in some
of the stuff where the hurt and shame came from.
In that I take responsibility for what was, you know,
what my decisions was, even at a young age, there
were decisions made, not responsible for being sexual abuse. Please,
no one think that's what I'm saying. I was a child,
It was not my responsibility or my fault in any way,

(38:51):
but those imagery processes doing it again and again and
again and again healing taking. One of the big gifts
I had, especially with my mom, was I eventually took
her out of the role of being my mum to
do my healing. So when I see and say my mum, automatically,

(39:11):
I have an expectation of what this woman's supposed to be,
what she's supposed to, how she's supposed to behave, what
she's supposed to do, who she is, and what she
didn't do as that role. When I put her in
the role of Elizabeth, I see this woman who came
to a country with two babies with a husband that
wasn't very available because of his own drinking, and she

(39:33):
then had three more and raised us in the seventies.
There wasn't the support, there wasn't the help, There wasn't
the stuff that's out there. She would have been crippled
with fear, would have been crippled with anxiety, and how
am I going to live and survive and look after
these kids. So when I see her as that woman,
I see she's an incredible strong woman. So I had

(39:54):
to take her out of the role of being my
mom because in my mom she failed, you know, as
that role, not as that person. So that was one
of my biggest hard moments with her. That was one
of my biggest healing processes. And then as years went
on and all the work that I did up to

(40:16):
leading into doing the Tim Fletcher program, then like I've
done a lot of work on shame, I've done a
lot of work on you know, releasing and dependencies and
could see a lot of things. I saw. My dependency
on my mom was extreme, even though I felt extremely
independent of her, like I don't need you. You know,

(40:36):
I'm more than capable of doing everything myself in my
own life. I don't need you. But the truth was
every relationship I ever had was based on her not
giving me my worth or me not having that from her,
and then I try to seek that from everyone. So
I was completely dependent on my mom emotionally. And when

(40:58):
I saw that, that shifted a huge amount of stuff again.
And then when I did the Fletcher program, when I
did the lift program. It dived deeper into the levels
of shame that are attached, because there's levels, there's not
just you know, mom didn't love me, my perception. Mom
didn't love me, that's the shame. There were levels and

(41:19):
levels and levels of shame that I had to uncover
heal see the truth, like you know, just even separating
her from Mom to you know, Elizabeth, separating that into
a place where I could get to see her trauma completely,
Like I could see her childhood. I could see her grandma,

(41:42):
my grandmother. I could see my grandfather, how they treated her,
how she fitted in her family, the generational trauma that
happens within us. Lots of techniques and healing in between,
you know, family constellation work, heaps of somatic work to
shake her out of my body, lots of inventory writing.

(42:03):
I do a lot of journaling, a lot of prayer,
a lot of too. The process I use its two
way prayer, which is me writing God answering sort of stuff.
A lot of meditation. So all those things have got
me to where I am today where no matter what
she does, it can still pinch. It can like the

(42:23):
pinch still can happen. But I have such a deep
love for this woman, Elizabeth, that who did her absolute
best to raise this rebellious You know, I don't one
of the reasons I don't have children because I used
to say to my mum, if I had a daughter
half as bad as me, I'm sure i'd kill her.
So you know, it's one of the reasons I'm one

(42:45):
of the reasons I don't have children is because I
was just like, no way. Yeah. So you know, and
then you shift that. I can't say I've shifted that
to gratitude for everything she has, but I certainly have
shifted it to compassion.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
M hmm, yeah, yeah, that's I'm feel that you share
that in such a way you can see the layers,
the length, the complexity, the depth of it. But even
as you began speaking, there's like I felt the aha
in there of a separating that role out of the
failure that of a mom, but then kind of this

(43:25):
this human, this person Elizabeth, and then also being able
to see what what she went through as well. I
can see how powerful that would be. So I know
we've we've kind of jumped into the healing journey here,
but I I just want to go back to give
you an opportunity if there's anything anything else you wanted

(43:45):
to share about your teen years, your twenties, because you
kind of before I detoured you, you you'd I think
you were starting talking about ending drinking and then kind
of moving into the twelve Steps, and so I just
want to go back there quick to see if there's
anything that you want to want to touch on, or

(44:05):
if we want to talk a little bit more about
the twelve steps at this point.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
You know, for me, Andy, a big part of my
addiction and my behavior was stemmed, Like I said, the
sexual abuse stemmed my path. It laid out my course
in that a lot of people think when people are
highly sexual or really active sexually, you know, the sluts,

(44:35):
it's tarts there, you know, bepep. We might have to
beat that one there. But you know, they think it's
a choice, and then at the end of the day,
it is a choice. But the choice for me wasn't
about I wanted to be so sexual. I was seeking
that love and seeking that attention, and that good old

(44:56):
song looking for Love and all the Wrong Places was
exactly that. So in that every time something happened within me,
more shame got created. Every time I acted out more.
Shame got created every time I harmed myself by doing
something I didn't want to do but didn't know how
to say no. And that is a direct result from

(45:18):
the abuse. I didn't know how to say no to
this man that harmed me, so that then carried on
in my life. So one of my greatest things today
is I know how to say no to anything that's
going to harm me. And that's the transformation of doing
this work when I you know, there were things that

(45:39):
happened in my life that led me to saying I'm done.
I've got to do something that's different here, and one
of them was I did for pregnant and I made
the choice to have a termination, and that wasn't an
easy decision to make. I wasn't a sixteen year old
girl who just messed up. I was twenty five. But

(46:01):
that gift led me to getting sober. And I know
today that that it was my universe, my God's power
in my life saying I'm going to stop you. One
way or the other, You're going to stop drinking. And
that led to then the next journey of getting sober,

(46:23):
finding twelve step program through a rehab. I didn't want
to go to a twelve step program. You know, that
was for real drunks. I wasn't a real drunk. I
always joke about it in meetings when I share and
I say, well, Allison on Melroe's place went to a
rehab and she got sober and three episodes. So I
thought that's what I needed to do, and I did,

(46:44):
you know, I went off to a rehab and they
introduced me to AA. AA introduced me to the twelve
Steps and to a beautiful woman called Carol who became
my sponsor and best friend for over twenty seven years.
She died just over three years ago now of cancer.
And that woman became such an impact on my life
and nurtured me in a way nobody ever had, and

(47:07):
loved me in a way no one ever had, and
taught me how to do those things. Did the process
of the twelve Steps go to meetings like you know,
I'm still very active in AA today. I'm just shy
of thirty years sober now, which is just mind blowing
that I'm that old. Jeez, I'm that old now. You know,

(47:27):
I'm still very active in twelve step world. As I
went into that, you know, it was the process it
was all uncovering, discovering this part of me. Then I'd
go to the next part and go, well, this isn't enough.
I'm not a Twelve Step member that like sober, is enough.
I want to be free, and to be free, I

(47:48):
needed to keep finding that deeper relationship with what I
call God. And that meant more work. That meant finding
somebody like Tim Fletcher along the path and going now
it made sense. So and I've said before, and I've
you know, said to Tim that the Twelve Steps taught
me how to live a life because I didn't know.

(48:09):
I was twenty five and like the age of three,
like age of five emotionally. And when I came across
Tim's work and did his program a couple of times,
I uh, his work taught me why I needed the
Twelve Steps in the first place. His work taught me
about the shame. His work taught me about the core bullet,

(48:30):
the core hurts. His work taught me about how it's
all connected and how I'm still holding it in my
nervous system. And then that just rocketed my healing journey
into a whole different dementia. So people who knew me
ten years ago who see me today, go what have
you done? Like, you know, even six years ago, Peo
were like, what have you been doing? There's something so

(48:51):
different about you now.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
I want to go back and ask you one question,
then come out and ask another question about the twelve
step healing. You know'd mentioned that when you were a
team team, that your brother in law and your sister
had come and tried to help you. At this point, like,
was there anybody that knew how you were struggling at
twenty five or that that came and helped you to

(49:13):
come into rehabit and then the twelve steps?

Speaker 1 (49:15):
So this was there was a there was a man
that I had been dating, if you can call it that.
There'd been a man that I was involved with previous
and the night I lost it, the night I had
my full on emotional breakdown, I actually called him and

(49:36):
he come and helped me, and he introduced me to
a counselor who introduced me to a church. That church
meant I had to go on a Sunday morning without
a hangover, and I wasn't quite ready to do that,
but I did talk to the counselor a little bit,
so it was kind of like enough opening. I had

(49:56):
a boss at the time who was very understanding. She
disclosed that she had her own alcoholism, she just needed
to stop physically, and so she was as supportive. Family wise,
when when you're in a home of dysfunction or alcoholism,
it's really hard when one person says I have this problem,

(50:19):
because it means everybody has to look at their own stuff,
and if people aren't ready to look at their own stuff,
then no one does. So family wise, they were all like,
my family is extremely aesthetic that I don't drink. They
all extremely happy that I don't drink anymore and that
I got on.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
With my life.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
That's as far as my recovery goes in their world.
So at the time they were supportive and encourage whatever
I needed to do. My little sister was definitely somebody
who was super supportive with me and you know, encouragementgyor

(51:01):
whatever I needed to do to get sober. Yeah, but
nobody of uh. Like I said, when when you say
you are alcoholic or you're an addict, and it affects
a community because it's not just your family, it's the
people you hang out with. It makes everybody question everyone.
Like even when I meet people today and I say

(51:21):
I'm an alcoholic. They go, well, tell me about that.
Do you think I'm an alcoholic or an addict to
Sometime I guess, you know what I mean, They'll tell you
I don't like those people. It's too odd. So yeah,
so it's that. Yeah. So it was a bit of
on my own and just being out there, like you know,

(51:41):
moving away and having building a new community for me.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
It was and I was wondering, you know, with kind
of everything that you know, now, what would you say,
you know, are some of the benefits of getting into
a twelve step program or into a program like lyft,
you know, kind of what are the bigger picture things

(52:04):
that it may help you see or help you do
or be in a different way, or the pros of
these group recovery programs.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
I guess with the twelve step, like I said, it
actually taught me how to live, like it taught me
how to deal with emotions that I didn't know how
to deal with. It got me to recognize emotions like
I didn't know what fear was in my life. I
didn't know how inconsiderate I was in the world. I
didn't know how narcissistic I was in the world. So

(52:33):
it helped me see me it actually, you know, uncovered
who and who I was in my behavior. Community was
certainly something. He gave me a sense of belonging, you know.
I remember feeling like I was a nobody when I
started doing twelve step work. But then became somebody like

(52:56):
I became somebody who somebody wanted to hear. I became somebody,
which is a double edged sword for somebody like myself
who's complex, trauma and narcissistic, you know, because then I
want to be heard by everyone, and I want to
be the center of everyone's attention. So it but it
gave me for the first time that I felt was

(53:16):
I could be seen, I could be heard, I could
be myself, I could be okay. I wasn't wrong, I
wasn't bad. I had an illness and an addiction. I
wasn't a bad person. I was a sick person. So
that was some of the real benefits it gave me
in early early recovery. It was like, you're not a
bad person or egg. The things you've done are not bad.

(53:37):
You've done them because of survival skills like these were
your survival coping mechanisms you did this tick try and
get your needs met. That's that's what were And you know,
in one hundred percent honesty, Andy, I'm extremely grateful that
I found drugs and alcohol because of how I felt
about myself, I would have ended up being very to

(54:00):
asaud all at a very young age, you know, becoming
a drunk save me Tyke.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
In my own life, well, we talk sometimes about how
it's it's the best band aid that we have to
you know, it's the only band aid we know how
to use to cover up a pain because we don't
have these other these other tools or the other these
ways for doing it for ourselves. Could could you talk more?
What I find really interesting and I'd love you to

(54:26):
expand on a little bit. Is you know you mentioned
like in the teenage years kind of that this complete
emptiness and loneliness and then now here a sense of
belonging and finding that sense of belonging, and you touched
on it a little bit, But I was wondering if
you could share, like, what is the difference either inside

(54:47):
of you or what's the difference in how people are
around you that that either helps to create that loneliness
and then also helps to to create this community and belonging.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
You know, I don't think it's anything external Andy. I
think you know, that emptiness and loneliness growing up was
that I had nothing inside of me, Like there was
no no no belief that I was anything good. Growing up,
there was no belief that I was anything that was

(55:26):
positive in my world. So that loneliness comes out like
that negativity comes out. So if I feel that about myself,
then there is no way in the world you're gonna
like me. So my belief about myself, which we know
now is shame. You know, My core belief about myself
was nobody in this world would ever want to be

(55:49):
near me, with me, like me, or anything. So the
loneliness was actually inside of me, not outside. I had friends,
I had people I could be with, like you know, friends,
all that sort of stuff. I had people around. I'm
a friendly person. People always attracted to my energy, you know,
leaving school, going into my diction. I always had people

(56:09):
we hung out with and I did stuff with. And
but the loneliness was there, and like we talk about
it in different times, lonely. I could be lonely in
a crowded room, and I could be lonely in a
crowded room of people who loved me because I didn't
have that in me. So the shift is learning how
to do that for me. And you know, I was

(56:31):
a big you know, eighteen nineteen Louise Hayes hit the bookshelves,
and you know, it was a lot of do the self, love,
love and approve yourself. And you know, positive affirmations are fantastic.
But for me, if I'm not showing myself that, they
mean nothing. I'm just writing out you know, the smoking
book that I had to write out five times in
high school because I got caught smoking all the time.

(56:53):
You know, it was just writing out lines. I remember
going to and I remember Carol saying this to me once.
She saw me writing out my lines and she said,
what are you doing? And I said, I'm writing out
my affirmations I love and approve of myself. And she said, well,
why don't you start showing yourself that. Like I was
drinking copious amounts of coffee or smoking cigarettes, I was

(57:14):
eating sugar. You know, all this stuff was going on
right there in front of me as I'm writing I
Love and approve of myself. So I had to learn
to change the action to change the feeling. So I
started pretending that I loved myself. So if I did
love myself, what would it look like? You know, I
wouldn't smoke fifteen cigarettes before eight o'clock in the morning.
I would, you know, make me only smoke five, you know.

(57:38):
So I started changing how I saw myself and started
changing the beliefs I had about myself and reprogramming those
tapes and getting to that core of that shame. And
I've said it before, like that level of shame just
goes deeper, deeper, deep, And some of the really deep wounds,
as the sexual abuse and other ones that I had
as a child, those deep wounds tape layers. It's not

(58:02):
just oh I see I'm not good enough. That's going
to fix that. There was like, oh I'm not good enough.
Oh that's connected to this, Like it's like an octopus
and it has tentacles. Each shame has a different tentacle
attached to it. So learning how to start to provide
my needs for myself, So recognizing my needs and I

(58:22):
started doing this work a little bit before I came
across Tim Fletcher in emotional sobriety work that I was
doing And I was working at Codependency and I talked
about providing your own needs for yourself. So I was
doing it a little bit. But when I came across
him and he had the structure of the twelve needs,
that just bombed me. That was like, yes, this is
what I've been looking for. And as you know, I've
run with that since I've been doing the program and

(58:43):
teaching and being one of Tim's staff members, and you know,
finding those needs within me seeing how how do you
validate yourself more egg, how do you actually go you know,
how do you talk to yourself? What is the language
that you have in your head that you say? So
it started to become curious instead of critical at myself

(59:04):
all the time. So instead of going you're an idiot,
no one' saiver gonna love you, you fat, you're ugly,
all those negative voices that I would have, start going, oh,
it's really interesting, why are you thinking that about yourself today? Sweetheart?
You're feeling a bit something now.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
You mentioned like action even without feeling, and so I know,
kind of with like addictions, compulsions, even anxiety, sometimes it's
difficult to take that loving action, especially when we have
this like strong urge is strong impulse like moving another way?

(59:40):
You mentioned cigarettes, but I'm sure with like alcohol, or
even like ice cream or even sex, Like is there
a way that you could explain combating a really strong
or really real urge to take that healthy action when
you've been in this pattern of taking taking down healthy action.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
I think that's where the Twelve Steps came in place
for me, because you know, total abstence. There was no
having a little bit here, a little bit that. Then
the education of the twelve steps, like the education of
what alcoholism is and what addiction is, so understanding that
my body is different to the person who can have
one glass of wine. You know, I sit and watch
somebody have a glass of wine. It drives me crazy

(01:00:22):
because it's like, just drink it, man, what do you doing?
Just drink it, you know, and they all sit on
it for two hours sipping it and then leave the rest.
Like it does make sense to me. So so the
education that they gave me what alcoholism actually was and
that it's an illness inside of us. And you know,
my body changes and when I drink alcohol, I want

(01:00:43):
more alcohol. It's the same for me with sugar. It's
the same, you know, the dopamine hit that I would
get from taking certain drugs. It would give me a
high before I even took the drugs. So seeing that,
so the discipline of the Twelve Steps helped me greatly
with that, like no, not allowed, it can't have it.
But I couldn't just do the discipline. I had to

(01:01:04):
do the healing, which was the emotional you know, the
emotional healing. Then the emotional kind of well, this is
the thing that I need to put in place. So
if I'm not going to drink, what am I going
to do? And this is where I started developing a
relationship with a higher power, with a God whatever you
want to call it, and relied on it to take

(01:01:25):
care of my problems. And I remember being six or
seven months sober being told all this stuff and meetings
like you've got to trust God, you got to rely
on God. You go do this, And I remember it's
probably the first time I did the throw up. You know, well,
if you're there, I'm giving you this, you know, arrogantly,
of course, you give me this back. You know. I

(01:01:48):
had some bills to pay. I was about to hand
in a uniform for a place that I worked, I
asked if she had any more work. She said no.
On the way there, I walked there, and on the
way there, I just said, oh, well, if you're there,
you know this problem, you know what I need, take
care of it, you know. And that was kind of

(01:02:09):
my first throw up prayer. And by the fifteen minute walk,
by the time I got to the shop, the woman said, Mark,
can you work for the next six weeks? Somebody's had
an accident and I need you for six weeks. And
like twenty minutes earlier, she didn't have any work for me.
So it was like, you do work and fast. So

(01:02:32):
it was like the development of that belief, development of
that faith. Somebody told me to do it. I believed
it worked for them. That gave me enough trust, That
gave me enough faith that it may work for me.
I did it. I had an experience it worked for me,
and that gave me the trust that then I could
do this. I could rely on something to take away

(01:02:54):
or give me things that I needed. I needed, not
what I wanted, totally two different things. So take away
the things at you know, we're going to cause me pain.
And I was really really lucky. Andy. I've been one
of the blessed people who when I stopped drinking. I
think in thirty years, I've been hit by the emotional

(01:03:15):
effort button three times in my sobriety. So I've been
really lucky in that case. It was taken away from me.
My other addictions weren't so easy. So my sugar addiction
wasn't so easy, my sex addiction wasn't so easy. You
interact with those things more than just put down. I
had to learn how to have those things in my
life that were at a healthy way, not a you know, well,

(01:03:40):
you just don't drink. So I had to learn how
to eat healthy. I had to learn how to have
food in my life that was non addictive. I had
to learn how to have intimate relationships without it being
based on sex. And you know, I was in a
long term relationship for sixteen years, and my partner in
that relationship really taught me that loved me unconditionally. And

(01:04:03):
they taught me that. They taught me that they loved
me with or without being sexual.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
M M.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
So I'm always grateful to them.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
How how did that affect you, kind of like feeling
that or or being able to receive that or understand.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
That At first, it was really confusing for me because
I felt it was rejection. What do you mean you
don't want to be with me sexually? What do you
I don't understand, you know, because that was my being,
That's that's where I got my attention, that's where I
got my love, That's where I got it. What do
you mean you don't want to be with me sexually? Yeah?
So at first, but then I learned how much they

(01:04:41):
loved me and what intimacy actually looks like, not what
sexual relationship looks like.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
I think that like really highlights the danger of complex
trauma because you know, often, you know, something really healthy,
unconditional love is interpreted initially as rejection, and so you
know how maybe like upside down, some of our beliefs
are our feelings are that what's actually healthy may feel

(01:05:11):
painful and difficult when we're first exposed to it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
Absolutely we don't know, you know. We long for myself.
I long longed for everything that I saw was the
right relationships to have. I longed for them. I yearned
for them, but when they were in front of me,
I didn't know how to do it. I had no idea.
I didn't know how to have a healthy relationship. I

(01:05:37):
didn't know how to have a healthy friendship. I knew
how to be dependent on people, and I knew how
to get what I wanted from people. I knew how
to manipulate people. And I was extremely narcissistic, extremely it
was always about me, didn't really care what you felt,
and would walk away from people and cut people out
of my life without a second thought if I wasn't

(01:05:59):
get what I wanted from them. Glad I found the
program and got healed, because it's not a nice person,
that's not a very loving person.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Yeah, And it takes me back to kind of how
we talked about your mother, but that that ability to
look back at yourself as well and to to take
that kind of non judgmental, non shameful accountability like I
did this, Like just how real and powerful and healing,

(01:06:31):
acknowledging the truth of of who I was in the
past and being able to say state that, like I
can see a lot of healing in that, just in
that itself. I want to I want to ask you
quick I'm looking. I'm looking at the time, and I'm
thinking of all the things that I all the things

(01:06:52):
that I want from you, that I want to hear
from you, And so I was wondering, you know, you
talked a lot about the kind of the twelve step
program and then you know, the discipline, the structure, the
connection with the higher power, and then also with the
LIFT program, this deeper education on shame and more healing

(01:07:12):
with that, could you maybe talk You briefly mentioned boundaries,
and there's been a little bit of like talk about
relationship with the inner child in a conversation. I was
wondering if you could kind of talk about, yeah, more
about like the boundaries, learning boundaries and also kind of

(01:07:33):
developing a relationship with an inner child.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
I did a workshop, a professional workshop a long time ago,
around boundaries, and this beautiful little Scottish lady, you know,
asked the question, as we're introducing to everyone, now, what
is a boundary to you? And I remember saying to her,
I don't have boundaries. I have portable fences. They get
moved to suit the people around me. So what I
get hurt? And that's what my life was like. I

(01:07:59):
had no boundaries my life. If they were they were aggressive,
they were brick walls. They weren't boundaries, and they were
cut you know, my boundary was yet out of my life.
That was kind of my boundary, which is hard for
someone who's codependent, because I don't want you to get
out of my life, but you know, i'd push you
out and I would create the scenario of you leaving

(01:08:20):
me so I wouldn't have to deal with stuff. So
when she asked me the question, I said, no, I
have portable fences. And my journey started with her around boundaries,
starting to know what it looked like in a professional sense,
understanding the crossing of boundaries and getting the language around boundaries.
Then coming into again like I was already in twelve

(01:08:42):
step programs and learning a little bit about boundary stuff
in there, things like my personal space. Like I just
thought anybody could do whatever they want. They could hug me.
You know, there was no concept that I could say no.
So learning how to say no even to the simple
thing of you know, in lots of communities, you know,
people hug I'm a huge hugger. I'm a very touchy person.

(01:09:05):
You know, if you and I were sitting having a coffee,
I'd be giving you a big hug at the end,
and you know'd be chatting away in my head and
be on your shoulder and build that stuff. An extremely
touchy person. But there were times where people would come
and hug me and I didn't want them to, and
I didn't know how to say no. So I had
to learn to stick my hand out and say how
are you and accept. And I remember the first person

(01:09:27):
I did that with, and I did that in the
rooms of twelve Step and the person I'd had let
hug me in previous and then when he came to
hug me again, I put my hand out and his
response was, oh, that's rejection, and my guilt and shame,
my guilt of oh I've hurt him now came up
and I almost dropped it. And when hugged him and

(01:09:48):
I went, no, no, no, this is not about you.
This is about me. So I started learning a little
bit about, you know, what boundaries were for and what
they were. But I was still in the concept with
a lot of people have that boundaries are about me
pushing you away, you know, And I talk about this
in the program and people I work with, A boundary
is not about you. A boundary and I really don't

(01:10:11):
like the word boundary. I use the word guidelines because
of this, because people have bashed the word because people believe,
and I believed, that boundaries were about me setting something
to you. I'm trying to control you to get you
to behave in a particular way, so I'm setting this
boundary against you. What a boundary is is me looking

(01:10:32):
after myself and taking care of my own needs. So
I for me today, when I have to set a
guideline for my life, whether it's an internal one or
an external one, when I have to set that guideline
for myself, I need to know what need I'm trying
to get met to hold it. So if it's that
personal space stuff, then it's safety for me. It's about

(01:10:56):
me feeling safe and comfortable and connected. So if I
know that's what the need is, then when that person says, oh,
that's rejection, I don't take that personally because it's not
rejection because I'm taking care of myself and not in
a arrogant, ugly way.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
I say to people all the time, when we start
learning to sit boundarys, we go from being a doormat
to being a bulldozer. Eventually we do come in the
middle and it becomes quite healthy the way we set them.
But that's just the process. That was my process. You know,
I'd be very strong and arrogant and forceful about setting them,
and now it's about what do I need. I need
to feel safe. You don't make me feel safe, so

(01:11:35):
you don't get in my personal space. So it's connecting
that to my needs in the process.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
Yeah, i'd like you bringing up kind of the bulldozer
because like so much of the healing journey is you know,
we're like a toddler and we're stumbling around, and so
you go from one side and then sometimes you have
to go too far. And then if you're keeping on
that journey and paying attention, then you'll find like this
place that can align with yourself and aligned in a

(01:12:05):
more healthy way. But we've got to be willing to
sometimes be a bulldozer.

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
Absolutely, And something a wise woman said to me once
many years ago. She said, more egg, you can't set
boundaries and then take care of the other person's feelings.
M okay. So when I set that boundary, especially with
people close to me, say with my sister or in relationships,
when I set the boundaries and they're not going to

(01:12:32):
be happy about it, I can't get involved in that emotions.
I can't take care of their feelings or their reactions
or their behaviors are connected to it. I just need
to stay with me, and that is for me. I
understand that is the main cause of people letting their
boundaries drop, because the other the thing with learning about

(01:12:53):
boundaries is the one thing we fear is being rejected
by asking for what we need. What happens more than
often often than not when we start setting boundaries and
people aren't used to it is they reject us. So
our fear comes true. But we have to. I had
to process through that fear. I had to get to
the place where it's like, I need to do this

(01:13:15):
for me, and you know, and I don't even go
I'm sorry that it does make you happy, but I
need to do this for me. This is for my
mental health, This is for my wellbeing, This is for
my healthiness, This is for my heart to be free.
Otherwise I'm still in the unhealthiness of shame and rejection
and replacement and all those lovely words.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
Yeah, there's that sense too, of kind of really building
up that emotional independence, maybe healing from false skill to
that over responsibility. Even our sympathetic nervous, like, there's so many,
so many small components. I think that can really help
to build the boundary setting.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
So you went through the LIFT, have been a teacher,
facilitator in the program and also in Thailand. Would you
want to talk a little bit about about this period
of your life as facilitator, coach and this time, this
recent time that you've been in Thailand.

Speaker 1 (01:14:13):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
So.

Speaker 1 (01:14:17):
Once I when I came across Tim's LIFT program, I
came across an end of a relationship, my long term relationship,
and my ex partner actually sent me the video on
codependency and complex trauma and said, no, you're doing your
own thing, but I think you're like this guy. I didn't.
I didn't like Tim. The first time I heard him,
I thought, how dare he? How dare he talk to

(01:14:37):
me this way? It's so personal, you know? But what
he was saying was true. And then I listened to
him a second time, and then I listened to the
whole eight part series in like two days. I just
couldn't stop hearing it, and I'm like, no, matter what
I have to do, work with this man. So I
did the research, and you know, thank God for COVID
because the REACT program became a LIFT program which was online.

(01:14:58):
Me in Australia, I would never have got to do
or even heard about the REACT program if we didn't
have COVID and didn't go online, So you know, it
was for me. It was great that that happened. And anyway,
so I went through the LIFT program the first time
by myself because there wasn't a suitable time in Australia

(01:15:20):
to do it, and I knew halfway through it I
needed to finish this work and I wanted to be
teaching us. I knew that this was the next stage
of my life. I knew that this was the next part.
At the time, I was an early educator, running my
own business doing childcare and my out of my own home,
and I thought that was going to be my retirement job.

(01:15:41):
This is what I'm going to do, do I end,
But nope, got out other planes. Anyway, part of Tim's
organization stuff is, as you know, we have to do
the program with a group to become a facilitator. So
I bugged poor Brianna. You know, I think every week
have you created a group yet? Have you created a
group yet? And I think when she finally got the

(01:16:02):
facilitators to do it. She just emailed me and said,
just start dates here. She didn't even ask me, she said,
this is your start date. And then I did the
program with a group for six months. Again loved it.
What I got. What I got out of it doing
it singly was huge, like there was so much healing
in that process at that time, but what I got
out of doing it as a group was even more

(01:16:24):
like because of the interaction and the connection in the community,
the community I got with, you know, being with people.
And it was interesting. When Tim was in Australia not
long ago, one of the women said, oh, I've been
watching Tim for ages and I said, I'm going to
talk to you at the end of the weekend. I
want to know the difference between watching him on YouTube
and seeing him live. And I did talk to her
at the end of the weekend and she's sort of like,

(01:16:45):
it's so different, Like you feel it, You're present with it,
You're really into it with him when he's here, and
you could feel his energy, which is you know, one
of the reasons I do like running this face to face.
So did the program myself twice, became a facilitator by
doing their court the COMPASS course started facilitating straight away.

(01:17:07):
At the time, I knew this is what I wanted
to do. So I was in Brisbane at the time,
and I started going, Okay, how can I start doing
REACT in Australia, How can I start doing this? A
couple of weeks later, I got offered a job in
a rehab in Thailand. Never wanted to go to Thailand,
wasn't in was it on my trouble list, nothing about it.

(01:17:28):
I went why not? Went to Thailand, went to work
in this rehab. Through the circumstances, that particular job didn't
work out, and at the same time, the Tim Fleatch
organization offered me more work. So I went from doing
two classes a week to doing six, and then that
just built up. I bought the licensing for the REACT

(01:17:48):
program and I started running it in Thailand face to face,
mostly with expats. There were a couple of Thai people
who did it, but mostly with expats. I did two
rounds of the Route program while I was living in Thailand.
So the en Route program is the shorter version of
the It's the longer version of version of Phase one,

(01:18:09):
but shorter version of the entire program, so it's something
they didn't need to commit to for as long as
and only being one person delivering phase two is too much,
so you know, I need to visit facilitators to do that.
So I did that twice face to face in Thailand,
and I absolutely loved it. I love delivering, delivering this work,

(01:18:33):
talking to people, you know, sharing my own experiences around it,
watching people come alive, watching from you know. I love
doing it online with the guys that I start with
Phase one through to the end of Phase two, but
watching people in real life, you know, as it's unfolding
for them right there in front of me, watching them
grow and change, and the women and the men who

(01:18:54):
did that. I ended up working in a secondary rehab
there and it was part of the team. I delivered
the program in there and it was such an amazing place.
Unfortunately shut down the owner went back to America. But
there was myself who did the on like, delivered the

(01:19:14):
program the educational part of the program, then did someone
on one coaching. There was another facilitator who did tre
and she was a therapist. And then there was another
facilitator who was an energy healer and she did all
body work, and so the people who did all three
got amazing results. And I still clean and sober today.
You know, they're still going really strong. People who only

(01:19:36):
did one or two things they're still around, but they
didn't have the impact that doing all three. So made
me see that the combination of healing is not just
the education is what we do with the program, but
it's the somatic stuff, and it's the court, it's the
coaching and the counseling that comes with it as well,
and of course for me, energy work as well. So
I was doing that for you know, two and a

(01:19:58):
half years in Thailand, and then I started to get
the pool to come back to Australia. Now I didn't
know why I was coming back to Australia, and Tim
and I had already started talking about him coming to
Australia in Thailand. He was coming somewhere near me. I
was getting him somewhere near me, and we got him

(01:20:19):
to end up getting him into Australia. He did a
weekend in Brisbane and a weekend in Sydney. I got
the pleasure of being with Tim Fletcher and Kim Fletcher
for like ten days and just loved it, like being
in their company, and in that process we started talking
and we started talking about doing REACT here in Australia
and he just asked me if I was up for it,

(01:20:40):
and twenty four hours later on yep, let's start at
TIM and he announced it at the first workshop that
I'd be, you know, the face of REACT in Australia Brisbane.
So the journey in Thailand was just phenomenal. It personally,
I did so much growth here because I didn't know anybody,
I didn't know anything I was doing doing this work.

(01:21:01):
Even though I'd finished the program myself, there is no
finishing of doing this work. It is ongoing, ongoing, ongoing,
And what I reflect on today with my journey there,
it was probably the first time in my life that
I actually got to be Morag and got to be
the person I was meant to be before any of

(01:21:22):
the tour I happened in my life because ninety percent
of it felt like it was healed. So I got
to really know who I was. I got to know
me and I'm pretty incredible. I'm pretty amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):
So I love I Actually I agree with that. You know,
I've had I've had the pleasure. I think I think
you and I are very different people, but I really
love kind of your late and your joy and your
energy and the spark that you bring.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
Yeah, thank you Andy, And then I'm bringing it to Australia.

Speaker 2 (01:21:53):
Yeah yeah. So like so for people who don't know,
REACT stands for Recovery from addiction and complex trauma, and
so it's the the in person program of the LIFT program,
and so kind of what's your hope for people who
will come into the program and maybe even for yourself

(01:22:14):
as you step into this new role.

Speaker 1 (01:22:16):
My hope for people is they get to be as
free as I feel like. That's my hope for people,
that they get to feel trauma and addictions, everything that
stems from our trauma is such a heavy life. We
carry this darkness around pretending to be light. We carry

(01:22:39):
this darkness in us and pretending to be light. So
my hope for people is that if they can get
if they can heal one aspect, if they can start
to understand what the twelve needs or whatever needs you
call it, Like, you know, people get hung up on
is it Maslow's hierarchy and needs Tim Fletcher's twelve needs,

(01:22:59):
Like don't matter what it is. My hope for people
in their whole universe is if people could start to
understand the importance and the essence of if we give
this stuff to ourselves in a loving, nurturing kind way,
not in an arrogant, egotistical way, which is what most
of us have tried to do. If they can do that,

(01:23:21):
every relationship in their life, every single one, is going
to be different. And if you can imagine that happening
in a ripple effect in the world, there will no
longer be any of the crises, or the dependencies, or
the pain that we all all have been suffering our
whole lives, all of us that are in this planet today,
all the suffering that is there. That would be my

(01:23:43):
hope for everyone to even be able to provide one
need for themselves solidly. My hope for myself is I
keep doing that for me. You know, some days it's
a swing. Some days I fall back into wanting somebody
else to tell me look good, wanting somebody else to
tell me I'm loved. You know, I have many people

(01:24:05):
in my life. One of the gifts that I've got
from doing this work, Andy, is I went from a
human being who sought validation from every single being cats, dogs,
everything everything needed to validate me to being a person
who actually gives that to herself. Now, I give that

(01:24:27):
to me now, And because I give that to me,
the universe confirms it for me. So although it is
still nice to hear that I look pretty, or it's
still here nice to hear that I you know I'm
doing a good job, the human need of being validated,
it is no longer part of my existence that I

(01:24:47):
needed from you for me to function today, which is
the opposite. So what the universe gives me today is
now confirmation of what I know to be true in myself.
So that's the wish I have for everybody in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
Sounds very powerful and liberating. Can I ask quick? So
I know when we when we first talked, I know
you love the twelve Needs, and you've you've brought them
up a few times today, And originally I was hoping
to ask you a lot about the twelve Needs, and
I think but I realized like that your your story
was so important to really kind of go into the

(01:25:28):
fullness of your story. And so I know we've we've
chatted about kind of meeting again and doing a fuller
session on the twelve needs, But could you give like
a high level overview of the twelve needs and maybe
some of maybe some of the reasons why why they're
so important.

Speaker 1 (01:25:45):
Yeah. Absolutely, So. The twelve need class is in Module
one of the LIFT program and it's day three and
when I did that, when I did the so when
you know, as for people who may not know what
the LIFT program is, you watched him present the topic.

(01:26:06):
You have material that you answer certain questions, and then
you come back into the group and you answer. You
do answer the questions with the group. The first time
I did that, I wasn't doing the group stuff and
I did the writing and the question Tim asks is well,
my interpretation, I actually don't know if he does ask
this or not, but my interpretation was to sit down

(01:26:29):
and write, which one of these needs got provided for
you when you were a child. And when I went
through it, and what I understand the words to mean,
I went food, water, and shelter. That's what they gave me.
They weren't capable of giving me the rest. So it
was a massive aha moment. I kind of went, well,
that explains why I'm so I messed up. I didn't

(01:26:50):
get any of my needs mat like explained it often
say to people doing the lift program is like a jigsaw.
We shake up, sight down, we throt all over the floor,
and each class, each module, each aha is turning a
picture over and hope a piece over and hopefully by
the end of the course you've got a picture. Even
if it doesn't make sense, You've got a picture of why.

(01:27:11):
That class, that exercise gave me the picture of why,
and then it made sense. So then I went the
next question was well, how do I provide these for myself?
And I went through, Well, if I'm really on my game,
I do eat really well, I need healthy, I drink
lots of water. I went through the process of each need,
how do I how do I give myself pleasure? And

(01:27:36):
I'm like, I don't know what does it mean? And
then it was almost like every time I explored one
something would open up. I caught when it came to pleasure,
I saw I had a fear attached to pleasure, that
everything I ever did as a child ended in chaos
and drama, like if we went camping, you know, something
bad would happen, So there was no joy attached to

(01:27:57):
doing something pleasurable. So pleasure actually became my first need
that I've really focused on. Also, the time of my life,
I had just done a long term relationship. I was
rediscovering who I was, what do I like to do?
So it kind of went hand in hand. I started
exploring what those what pleasure looked like for me. What
were the things that made my heart seeing? What were
the things that brought me joy? What were the things

(01:28:19):
that I always said, oh, I want to do that,
but got too scared because fear would cripple me. So
I looked into that, and then I looked into what
sex and intimacy looked like. What does it look like
being single trying to fulfill your sexual needs and your intimacy.
So I learned about my friendships and how much my
friends loved me, and I started accepting their love. Before

(01:28:41):
I could move on to being able to be loved
by somebody else in an intimate sexual relationship, you know,
I had to learn about my body and learn about
what because my love language is physical touch. One of
my love language is physical touch. So how do I
find that being single in a healthy way? Tinder's great
to find it in an l unhealthy way, but you know,

(01:29:04):
how do you find this stuff in a healthy way.
So I had to learn all that, and I went
through each and every need exactly that way, and then
I started connecting it with more of the program. So
then when we did the love languages, well, how do
I provide these needs for myself with my love languages?
How do I provide these needs through my shame? And
what I learned through doing this work over and over

(01:29:26):
again is that my unmet needs is by base trauma
ground zero from my needs not getting mad, it created shame.
That shame then creates a belief about myself that creates
codependency and creates fear in my life. And when I'm

(01:29:46):
in fear, I usually react in anger because I'm terrified
you're going to hurt me, leave me, so I'll rather
be angry at you. So when I work on this,
that's the down up, the down, the bottom, the top
down is I have to heal the anger, I have
to heal the fear, I have to look at the codependency,
I have to heal the shame. And I do all
that before providing these needs for myself. But I had

(01:30:09):
no idea what they looked like. I had no idea
how to respect me so I started finding the mirrors
of the people in my life who did look like
they respected themselves. I asked them what they did, I
asked them how they respected themselves. I asked them, what
would it look like if I respected me? They told me.
And back to the acting. As I started to act

(01:30:32):
like I respected myself, and the acting and the changing
of that energy changed how I felt about myself, and
it reduced the shame. And the whole shame process is like,
you know, see the shame, see the lie, I see
who said it, See how I've tried to control and
manage it. What's my need? Okay, I need to provide
this need for myself. What does that look like? We
all joke in in the Tim Fletcher, you know more Igan,

(01:30:55):
her twelve needs has completely stolen from Tim.

Speaker 3 (01:30:59):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:31:00):
I mean I love I love kind of getting just
this like quick perspective from you, and I really look
on having a selfishly. I really look on having a
fuller and a deeper conversation with you too, to be
able to ask you more questions and to learn more
deeply with it, and so kind of having been in
this world where you're you're coaching and you're facilitating. You've

(01:31:23):
been working on meeting your twelve needs. You have this
connection to a higher power. You're learning how to love
and validate yourself from inside. As you sit here today,
what's it feel like to be in your body and
at home with yourself in a way that you weren't.

Speaker 1 (01:31:40):
Before you just said the word Andy, I feel I'm
at home, like I feel a sense of belonging to
who I am today I am. I do not have
that emptiness, of that loneliness in my soul anymore. I feel,
you know, the twelfth need is happy, content, and home,
and out of those three words, whole is what I feel.

(01:32:03):
I feel I can stand in my own you know.
I feel authentic, and I've never ever been able to
be authentic in all all my stuff, you know, Authentic
when I'm feeling chubby, Authentic when I'm feeling you know, scraggy.
Some mornings I wake up and like, oh my god,
you look fine to day girl, And the other mornings

(01:32:24):
I go, oh, you should have got more sleep last night, sweetheart?
You know, so.

Speaker 3 (01:32:28):
Authentic, I feel, I feel like the human being that
was born just over fifty five years ago, as that
precious little baby who couldn't wait to explore what this
world had an offer.

Speaker 1 (01:32:44):
And that's how I feel. I'm excited every day I'm
I have you know, I have moments, and I have
down days, and I have stuff that comes up. My
shame still presents itself, but it presents for minutes, seconds,
you know, seconds, minutes, an hour. Now instead of months,
years and decades, I can ask for what I need.

(01:33:08):
You know, when I when I am in friendships or
in relationships, I can ask for things that are important
for me which I never would have done before. You know,
this is what I need in this relationship. Are you
able to do so?

Speaker 2 (01:33:21):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:33:22):
Then okay, then this isn't a relationship for me. We've
never been able to do that in the past. You know,
that fear of being rejected or being replaced consumed me,
and today it still hurts. Can't say it doesn't. I'm
still very human, more human than not. It still hurts,
but I know today the truth is they're actually not

(01:33:44):
rejecting me. They're saying yes to themselves like I'm saying
yes to me. And that was a huge shift, authentic, whole, complete,
excited life just is you know, can't but people who
know me, it's like, can't wait to see what's happening
next in my life. And that's that's kind of what

(01:34:06):
happens is I don't know what's gonna happen. Let's just see.

Speaker 2 (01:34:10):
So Yeah, and I love resonate as you say, even
with everything that you've just said, going back to that
first word again, that feeling like you're home, I can
I can really see that as you're as you're sharing
this right now. Well, I love moreg that you are
looking to create a new home to help other people

(01:34:31):
in Australia. And I recognize that I say Brisbane incorrectly.
I think I've pronounced it better there instead of Brisbane,
don't have the correct accent. So if somebody is listening
from Australia or know someone who might benefit from the
REACT program, is there a way for them at this
point to learn more or to get involved.

Speaker 1 (01:34:55):
Yep, they can contact I mean they can contact Tim
Fletcher organization. You guys will scoot them over to me,
or they can contact me directly through my website and
my email. Which do you want to give you that
on here?

Speaker 2 (01:35:12):
Yeah? Yeah, if you could show all for those.

Speaker 1 (01:35:15):
Yeah, So it's just my website so the website's grow
ww dot grow from within dot com dot au and
the email is info at grow from within dot com
dot au, so they can contact me directly on there.
Murray Clark's pretty easy to find. There's a few of

(01:35:35):
us in the world. But yes, Grow from Within is
my business that React will be running under while I'm
here in Australia.

Speaker 2 (01:35:44):
So yeah, well, I wish I wish you the best
as you continue to plan for this and I just
I want to thank you for for your honesty and
your courage and your your enthusiasm and your willingness to
walk us through your pain. What else talking about like
survival and the insights that you've shared, and really like

(01:36:04):
reclaiming your voice, like your center and your voice. And
as you said here at the end of your home,
I'm really looking forward to having another discussion with you
about the twelve needs. And I honestly, I just I
love how you carry this joy with you wherever you go.

(01:36:25):
It's just it's wonderful to be in your presence.

Speaker 1 (01:36:29):
Thank you, Andy, and you too, done. We've journeyed a
little while together so it's been lovely to get to
know you, so thank you so much. For this opportunity.
Like he hopefully this will land in somebody's lap and
they'll go if she can do it, I can do it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:36:46):
I love that as an ending message, and so I
just want to share it to those listening. If parts
of more x sory resonated with you, please know that
you're not alone, and there's help, there's healing, and there
are people who care. Until next time, take care of
yourselves and find something that makes your heart sing. Thank

(01:37:09):
you for joining us on the Time with Tim podcast.
If you'd like to share your own experiences or have questions,
feel free to email us at podcasts at Tim Fletcher
dot ca. Want to learn more about complex trauma, subscribe
to Tim Fletcher's YouTube channel for past lectures and is
Friday Night Tim Talks. You can also connect with us

(01:37:32):
on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and TikTok. Looking for more support,
we offer programs and courses to help with healing complex
trauma and recovering from addictions. Visit Tim Fletcher dot ca
to learn more or send us an inquiry. We're here
to support you until we meet again. Take care and

(01:37:52):
thank you for letting us be a part of your
healing journey.

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S3E04 | Find What Makes Your Heart Sing with Morag Clark

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S3E04 | Find What Makes Your Heart Sing with Morag Clark