S3E06 | Understanding NARM: A New Way to Heal Complex Trauma with Gabriel Schüßler - Time with Tim Fletcher

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're doing a lot. You're not lazy. I'm not seeing
somebody lazy in front of me. For example, you're judging
yourself as lazy. I know you have the idea that
you're lazy. Reframing it a little bit for me so
that I could see, oh yeah, that's actually that's the
idea that I am lazy if I'm looking at my life,

(00:22):
not seeing the life of a lazy person.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
I'm Andy Carlson and you're listening to the Time with
Tim podcast. Each episode, we explore the impact of complex
trauma through the personal journeys of our guests.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Along the way, we'll connect.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
With experts and individuals who share their unique perspectives, insights,
and practical tools to help you on your healing journey.
Let's take this time to learn together. Welcome back. Today,
we're looking into the neuro Effective Relational Model or an ARM,
an approach design to help people healed from complex trauma

(01:02):
by reconnecting with their authentic selves. Joining me again is Gabriel,
who shared his personal healing journey with us in a
previous conversation. This time, he's here to help us understand
the core principles of NARM and even guide us through
some practical applications. So, whether you're on your own healing
journey or simply exploring how trauma shapes identity and relationships,

(01:24):
I hope this conversation offers something meaningful for you. Welcome back, Gabriel, Hi, Andy, Hey,
And so for those who may not have listened to
our previous conversation, could you just briefly reintroduce yourself and
also share how you first encountered NARM.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yes, my name is Gabriel. I'm a facilitator and coach
in the Tim Fletcher universe. I have been into whatever
you might call it self development, character refinement, or even
trauma therapy for quite some time, but more on the

(02:08):
pop cultural and also on the shamanic side. I really
scientific stuff actually came into my life when I encountered
Tim and when I did my education in this clinical
framework that is called NORM, the neuro Effective Relational Model.

(02:32):
So and I've been practicing NORMS. I'm a practitioner of
NORM for about three years. So I hope to expand
on that today in the conversation with you.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Did you share, like what drew you to.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
NORM and how has it impacted your personal and professional life.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
I think NORM is the one thing that has made
the biggest impact so far. And why is that? I
think the most important thing is that NORM is a
very friendly, very like relatable, slow smooth way of learning

(03:26):
to relate to yourself. And when I did the Intro
and Intro Weekend about NORM, I listened to the guy
teaching it and doing some demonstrations, and it was not
about making interventions. It was not about so imagine you're
in a child and now you're saying something to him

(03:48):
and now something changes. It was way more basic. It
was there were questions like, ah, your face changed right now.
How I'm interested in how you're talking to yourself in
this moment. It was very based in the hearing now,

(04:09):
based in what capacity the human being that was sitting
in front of the therapist has, and the therapist was
part part of the equation, not just somebody who brings
the client along or something like that. It was as

(04:30):
if they were having an actual relationship and an actual
relating with each other in that moment, and that was
the healing thing. And that impressed me quite a bit
and I was I was really drawn to it and
I wanted to learn it.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
It seems like there's something like very kind of real
about that, you know, just like you and I are
in this conversation having a relationship right now. It's like
recognizing that fact in kind of the therapist and client
role as well as that relationship and being real and
present with it. Would you is there a I don't

(05:16):
know if this is simple or not, but would you
be able to give like a high level overview of
what NORM is and maybe maybe how it differs, if
there are any other ways that it differs from other
trauma unformed approaches.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well, what I think is the interesting thing with NORM,
and I think that is also a little bit the
way that I am woven. I like to do principle
based things and value based things, so that within the
principles and within the values and maybe in NORM it's

(05:50):
also called the pillars of norms NORM. Within that I
can develop really my own way of relating and of
sensing somebody else. So that was very attractive to me
that I that I didn't go to like some kind
of here is the paradigm. You have to do this,

(06:11):
and if you do it, then you're within the paradigm.
If you're not doing that, you're without the outside of
the paradigm. So that is what high level was for me.
Different in NORM, there is no technique, so to say. Everybody,

(06:32):
and I have experienced quite some uh NORM therapists and practitioners,
they all have a different kind of style. Well. The
thing that is very interesting about NORM that I also
found is that it's specifically aimed at developmental and complex trauma.

(06:55):
It is made for hell being people to reconnect with themselves,
to think about and feel about the way they attach,
to figure out what the conflicts around relationship to themselves

(07:16):
and to others are, about how they created their adaptations
and childhood, and how these adaptations from childhood are still
alive in the right here, right now. There is a
lot of right here, right now work because all of
our survival adaptations when they're bugging us, they're coming up

(07:38):
every time every day, you know. So from there, it
is really really made for looking at shame, for looking
at self rejection, looking at self hatred, and it aims
towards resources. That's also an interesting thing about NORM. It

(08:00):
is a resource based We never just like dig around
in in the painful stuff. We would only do that
when we have clarified before where the client wants to
be in an embodied being kind of level. So so

(08:20):
usually NORM is NORM. NORM starts like a like a
normal coaching, like a normal life coaching. You clarify a
contract with somebody and you figure out where does this
person want to be, how does this person want to
do things differently? But what is this person longing for

(08:44):
to embody for themselves in the future. And then we're
looking at what's in the way and that we kind
of deconstruct that, and usually then feelings come up. And
usually then the older stuff, the stuff that not usually
in a way, the stuff that we're not used to,

(09:07):
comes up, and then we can look at that unpacked
that a little and then create more awareness around it
and help the client to relate to themselves once this
stuff has come up. So I think that's the that's
the nugget of NORM. It really it really focuses on

(09:29):
the relationship between the client and and and the coach
and it, and it also focuses on the relationship of
the client with him or herself, but on a resource
base way, like where do you want to go? What
what is already working, and how can you like kind
of organize yourself in another way by having more awareness

(09:52):
awareness a resource in that case.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
M M yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
And so like I hear you mentioning that relationship aspect
between the coach and then also with self, and it
sounds as if you're saying too that there's very much
a come as you are for the culture therapist as
well as for the client. And then you you mentioned
you know this this focus on developmental trauma. You know,

(10:21):
could you could you talk about developmental trauma and attachment
trauma kind of as it differs from single incident trauma
or what they call shock trauma, Like why is that
distinction important?

Speaker 2 (10:34):
What is the distinction?

Speaker 1 (10:38):
He yes, I can talk about that. Well, so, since
I'm not educated in how to treat shock trauma, I
can only give you superficial knowledge about shock trauma, and
I can you can give you a little bit more
in depth knowledge about developmental trauma. So, I mean shock

(11:01):
trauma we have we have all probably learned this is
the this is this big t trauma. Some happened, there
was an impact, might have been like a car accident
or something like that, and then after the accident, things
are not the way they were before because because it
was not possible for the person to keep going because

(11:25):
there's some kind of shock in the system. Here's the
clear differentiation between PTSD and complex PTSD, as written in
in the norm A practice book called The Practical Guide
to Developmental to Healing Developmental Trauma PTSD post traumatic stress

(11:47):
disorders coming from a single event, and what happens to
person to a person after this event is that there
might be a continuing sense of threat, an avoidance that
has to do with whatever has to do with the event,
and a re experiencing of the event. That's the three

(12:09):
things that are happening to people with post traumatic post
traumatic trust disorder. So we can we can also talk
about soldiers and so on. That is very very much known.
In soldiers, they're re experiencing, they're avoiding, and there is
a sense of threat. The thing with complex PTSD is that,

(12:31):
as you know from tim complex PTSD is there is
not a single event. There is more a milieu in
which a kid had to grow up there and they
were constant maybe traumas happening, but there was also an

(12:52):
empty place where certain needs of the kid were not
fulfilled on a continual basis, and the kid had to
find strategies around that to kind of survive with what
was there. So the criteria for complex PTSD then are

(13:14):
they have the same thing. They have a sense of threat,
they have an avoidance that is organized around the things
that they didn't have or had too much, and there
is a reexperienced thing of the traumatic events. But what
comes on top of that for people from complex PTSD
is they also have affect dysregulation. They have a negative

(13:38):
self concept, and they experience interpersonal disturbances also, and that
on a continual basis. So they bring the mill you
that they grew up in into their grown up life
and try to apply the rules that they have figured

(13:59):
out for them in relating to the other people around them.
But they're applying that from a negative self concept. They
learned that they're not good enough, that's the whole shame thing,
and that they learned that there are certain difficulties that
they have in relating with others. Always if I try,

(14:21):
when I try to make new friends, this and that happens.

Speaker 4 (14:27):
Or yeah so, and.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Always if I'm in this or that or that situation,
I feel really warm or I can't think anymore, and
things like that, and all of that is aimed towards relationships.
It's all aimed towards like interpersonal stuff going on which

(14:49):
somebody who had a car accident, their trauma is probably
more organized around this car accident. There might be even
arenas in this person's life who are not affected at all.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
So the complex trauma is a lot broader with that,
as you said, like the affect and then also the
relational What about like symptoms like anxiety and depression? How
does how would NORM view those?

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Well? Norm, as far as I have understood it and
seen it demonstrated with people who are way further down
the road than I am. If Norm would relate to
the person that is coming with anxiety, Norm would never
say anxiety is this and that and that and that.

(15:42):
Of course, as a therapist or as a coach, you
have to know a lot about anxiety, and your knowledge
is important, but your knowledge is only important to help
you create good hypotheses in your own head. But you're
not going to tell the client, so your anxiety is
this and that, and anxiety is usually treated.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
Like that and that.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
It's more like, okay, so tell me a little bit
more about a situation where your anxiety peaks. I'm interested
in that, and I'm interested in what happens to you
as you're talking about that. That would be NORM approach.
It would always go to a relating rather than a theorizing.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
I see they're not pathologizing the client as well. You're
still seeing your relating to the client as a whole
human and relating in the present.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah. And what I've heard about this pathologizing from NORM
practitioners is pathologizing somebody in front of them in order
to help them when they come to you with complex trauma.
That means they have already a negative self concept. This
basically just facilitates them shaming themselves more. And they already

(17:09):
did that. They already went on YouTube and on Google.
They know what their problem is. They have already shamed
themselves with that. They don't need that in that moment.
They need somebody who listens, who leans in, and who's
there it's there for them. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
That's something that I really like, because you know, in
a lot of therapies you focus on the past, like
how you were hurt when you were hurt and thinking
on that. And I know you touched on this a
little bit, but I was wondering if you could talk
just a little bit more about that principle of not
focusing on the past but on the present pattern like,

(17:51):
how is that more important?

Speaker 2 (17:54):
How does that help people heal?

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Let's try an example. So I'm rejected by somebody, and
the whole caboom happens in me, the whole like, oh
my god, I'm not good enough, and then I'm so
angry at them, and then and then I'm acting out,

(18:21):
and then we have a fight, and then we split
up or whatever, and then I'm and then I'm sitting
in front of my NORM therapist. So and what what
what would be interesting from this NORM perspective, and I

(18:45):
try to generalize here would be ah, okay, let's rewind
that and see what happened to you and how you
treated yourself internally and how you really related to yourself
maybe at the worst moment of it all. And how

(19:06):
how is it for you to talk about this right now,
this recent event that is more important because that is
something that actually happened to this person recently. Why is
that so on? One thing the NORM trainer really often

(19:29):
emphasized is that you don't really need to talk to
people about their childhoods because that's all they already survived that,
so there they actually won what is and it was
very helpful what they did as kids. Even if you,

(19:50):
I don't know if you, if you isolated in your room,
sitting there waiting for the shouting of the parents to
die down because they then finally got drunk or something
like that or fell asleep, even sitting there being invisible,
there was a best a child could do. So norm
either takes that perspective, Hey, wow, you survived. It's a

(20:14):
pest that you could do. But now you know this
isolating thing, it just doesn't work anymore. So if somebody
rejected me and I went isolating and so on, I'm
exactly doing what I did back then. But now it's
a problem. Now I'm not getting what I want. Now,
I'm not getting the connection or the resolve or relief

(20:36):
that I want in relationship with this other person. It's
just because I'm applying a strategy and I'm shaming myself
through it, and I'm sitting alone in my room. So
it's much more important for a grown up to look

(20:56):
at these things that are happening and just recently, how
this child stuff kind of is activated in us and
and take that apart and look at that a little
bit closer and a little bit deeper and see maybe
if there are some emotions stuck in us that want
to be felt or want to be expressed, so that

(21:19):
we can actually this is like a freeing the kid
that we wear, but in the hearing now. So that
is why from from the norm perspective, it's more important
to do it, to do it that way around, because
then you're backs. Basically you can have You can do
that in a in a conversation with another person, you

(21:40):
can help them deconstructed, and you can react directly to
what is happening to them right now as they're talking
about it. Sometimes somebody's face then starts dropping or something
and they're not communicating in that moment, and but as

(22:00):
you're seeing them, you can see. I can say, hey,
I'm noticing your face is really changing right now, and
I'm really curious what is happening inside of you. And
then maybe we caught that moment that is really important

(22:21):
to shine the light on for this person to understand
a little bit deeper what they're doing internally. But was
that an answer?

Speaker 3 (22:33):
No? No, I think that was great. I think you
know there's there's a couple of things of like, you know,
the real power to change comes in the present. And
there's something else that that you that you said there too,
which I think correlates in it.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
It just really struck me.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
It really hit me. It's like, you know, there there
will be times where I'll look at the past and
kind of relive it, go into a very painful state,
relive it, or feel a lot of shame. But the
comment you made is like you survive childhood, You've already
won that. There there's just something when you said like
you've already won that really struck.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:16):
And you you mentioned in here kind of like how
there's like isolation or these different adaptive styles, Like could
you talk about the like I know, NORM has five
major adaptive styles. Could you talk about how they are
and how they shape our identity and relationships.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
Let's let's just go through the through the way that
that NORM actually explains it. So a child has core
needs mm hmm. And these needs usually need to be
met from the outside, so from the primary parent caregivers,

(23:58):
the parents, or the environment. So when a child then
experiences failure of the environment, it needs to do something
with that. And what it then does. It has to
rely on strategies of disconnection. It has to somehow disconnect

(24:26):
from the moment or from the need or whatever is
happening inside that leads to the child having a smaller
capacity for this particular need that was not met because

(24:49):
you know, capacity grows. If I'm a toddler and I
want to like crawl away from my mom and I'm
crawling way two meters and I turn around and I
see her on her smartphone and she's gone, she's out,

(25:10):
she's not there, And I panic, Mom, where are you?
So I'm sitting I'm I don't have the idea to
go back to her or whatever. I'm just sitting there
and I panic and she looks up and she says.

Speaker 4 (25:24):
Why are you crying?

Speaker 1 (25:25):
I'm right here. So so what a child has to
do in that moment is to disconnect from this need
of being like a mom attuned to me, please feel me.
These two meters they're too much already and you're gone. Ah,
so sore is there is a way that a child

(25:49):
has to organize him or herself in that moment, and
it can and it will do this via disconnection. So
there are different strategies that children pick and these strategies
are organized according to their age. So the first survival

(26:09):
style is called connection survival style. This is very early
in childhood. It could be even in neutral, and could
be around birth and a little bit after birth. This
is all about am I welcome in the world? Is
it okay that this little nervous system you know, is
welcome in the world. That means I'm hungry, I'm being fat,

(26:32):
It means I'm somebody needs to change my diapers because
it's smelling and burning and this is happening. I'm somehow
sad because I'm growing and my body hurts and somebody
is there to hold me. And even in utral, like
somebody is actually happy that I'm in there, and you

(26:55):
know there is not this cocktail of hormones surging through
the mother that that is clearly about anxiety and what
am I going to do about having this child? And
so on. So all of this is about connection, welcome
in the world. And then the next one is attunement. Okay,
child's out and it has all these needs, all these needs,

(27:21):
and you know, nobody, nobody looking or being with a
child will forever meet all all the needs. But if
if there is a grown up who's attuned to themselves
and can fulfill their own needs. It's actually possible to
tune into this child, not on a mechanical level, but

(27:45):
like a like a like a real attunement from the heart.
And if a child gets that, it doesn't get that
tunement survival style. But if that is kind of kind
of compromised, then then a lot of strategies will be
centered around needs met or needs not met. Then the

(28:10):
next one is called a trust. This is like an
older child I don't really know, like maybe two three.
So can I trust you to be on my side?
This is already that that has a cognitive function to it,
and the other ones they are probably pre verbal. And

(28:33):
the trust survival style is a little bit like, Okay,
there's somebody online. There is somebody looking out of their
eyes and wants to relate to the world. So can
I trust that you will be there? Can I trust
that I can try things and you will let me fail,
but you will also like carry me at the same time.

(28:54):
But the problem is if that is not met, then
there they might be like I can't trust anybody.

Speaker 4 (28:59):
I need you like.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
You know, lots lots of people go through live like
I can't trust anybody. I need to take care of
this all of my own. Why does nobody support me?
And blah blah blah all these things, And that would
be the trust survival style, the autonomist of survival style.
I think like three quarters of the planet has that
one that is that is actually will you let me

(29:27):
do it? And when I turn around, will you still
be there? And when I want to be alone, will
you let me or will you transgress? Will you control me?
Or will you just create the boundary that is necessary
for me to grow and support me and see me

(29:47):
where I want to grow? And you know, with all
the helicopter parents that are running around nowadays and also with.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
Our what i've or could be.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Parents, parents that are basically just a little bit too
engaged or a little bit too less engaged, it's like
you have to really then start knowing your kids when
they grow older and and and if if, if love
or connection is compromised in that area, people people have

(30:23):
the autonomys survival style. So this is this is a
lot of like this is a these are these the naysayers.
You suggest something to them and they say just because
they think just because you said it to me, I
will not do it the way you said it, Like
the I think Tim calls calls it the opposite oppositional

(30:45):
defines disorder everything around that, Like it's a most of
the times a very tight body somebody who's like, Okay,
I'm gonna pull for with this on my own, aren't
going to bring you along. But if anything doesn't go
the way I want it to, I'm going to figure
out how to get how I want it. That would

(31:08):
be the autonomy survival style. And the last one is
love and sexuality survival style. That's a kind of difficult
to explain. We can like leave the sexuality out of
it for a moment. For me, the love and sexuality
would be can I go out there in the world,

(31:30):
into the world be loved? Did I get enough? Like
is my love tankful? And can I go out there
and expect that this will be a good experience something
like that. So when the child then has enough autonomy
and can do the steps outside out into the world
I don't know, maybe kindergarten or preschool or something like that,

(31:54):
and expect that this is all a good experience. And
if it's compromised there it might. It might very often
be that they're very rigid and controlling and they they
figure out ways to really get what they want. The
interesting thing about these survival styles is that if you

(32:14):
only have love and sexuality as a problem, you and
you like you were attuned to, you were connected with,
you can trust, you have enough autonomy, you have a
lot of life force at your disposal. Now, if you
only have been traumatized when you were five and everything

(32:37):
before that was okay, you can really shape the world.
You can really make something out of that. You're already
cognitively kind of online. You don't have to be afraid,
and you can like you can you can really start
like making everything the way you want. So there is

(33:00):
a rigidity too to make things perfect. So that is
that is the love sexuality survival style quick run runs through.
Maybe some of the listeners have found themselves here or there. Yeah, yeah,
I know.

Speaker 3 (33:19):
That's that's interesting to see this progression of like the
human child, the human organism from even in utero newborn
baby and going from this connection to attunement to trust,
to autonomy to love and sexuality. There's a I have
a question, but I want it before I get to

(33:40):
that you mentioned the failure of the environment, and I
think this is something that that NORM kind of approaches
a little bit different because a lot of times when
we grow up in maybe a shame and blame culture,
a shame and blame household, we want to shame and
blame the parents for failing us. And but like Norm

(34:03):
Narm talks about this environmental failure instead, could you kind
of touch on that.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
I mean, I think it's not very specific to NORM.
What I think I mean environment is culture. Yes, we
can and we have experienced that that it might be

(34:32):
or you and I know that that that it comes
up that blaming the parents might be coming up or
in recovery and then not wanting to blame the parents
because one.

Speaker 4 (34:45):
Knows that well, yeah, they did their best.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
But if you kind of zoom out out of the households,
then you can say we are swimming in a co
culture where some things are welcome and some things are
not welcome.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
There is a lot of focus on on like shame
and disconnection from the authentic self from this this natural
life force.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
Could you maybe explain or.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
Give some more examples of how those show up and
maybe how Norm a NORM therapist might work with them.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
Well, we can maybe go through the adaptive survival styles
and I can just run through it what the shame
is about for which survival style, and then we can
look where we go from there. Okay, so the first

(35:50):
the connection survival style feels shame at existing, at feeling
and connecting. Just imagine that you know, nobody connected to you.
There was not like hello, new human. So I can
tell you what, when I encounter somebody like that in

(36:14):
a coaching session, there is no use in you know,
doing all these sophisticated interventions with people like that. They're
actually that's courageous enough that they dare to come to
a zoom meeting and sit in front of somebody who

(36:39):
calls themselves a therapist or a coach and try to
connect with them. So with that kind of early trauma,
it would be actually way enough for people like that
to sit there and be able to to you know,

(37:01):
come from this disconnected state that they might be in
to be with me for a moment and then notice
when they're going away again. H So that might be
a way a way the sessions might be shaped and
and for for me as a as a coach to

(37:25):
to understand that I need to of course then sit
there and I need to know about the connection survival style,
and I need to know about about observing the person
that I'm working with, because there are there are cues
like especially like the the like looking away or or
suddenly not knowing where we what we were talking about,

(37:49):
and things like that. So so how I'm dealing with
Shame in in this kind of survival style would be okay.
There needs to be a very very gentle resence that
I need to bring because because they they needed to
disconnect almost fully in their childhood. It was so painful

(38:14):
they disconnected fully, they're not there, they're not even allowed
to feel to exist. So as a as a norm
NORM practitioner, that would be then my first prerogative to
over time in many sessions, to to to give permission

(38:39):
to feel. But then it comes also that they don't
have enough capacity, So feeling a little bit every time
is probably the wiser choice than to throw them the
feelings wheel and say do that five minutes per hour.

(39:01):
It overwhelms them completely, So so I'm chunking it up
right now. So working with Shame would be learning where
they're at and meeting them where they're at and then
also showing up as the healthy person they need to

(39:27):
relate to two to have this kind of interaction that
they might have missed as kids.

Speaker 3 (39:37):
It sounds from what you're sharing that there's like a
mix between a little bit of a somatic focus but
also a cognitive focus. Yeah, are they both integrated?

Speaker 2 (39:51):
What's how is that viewed?

Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Norm likes the top down and the bottom up approach.
So NORM is uh is happy, happy with talking about
something and then seeing how it is to actually acknowledge
what we're thinking here and how that resonates in the body.
But it also is happy with like some thing's coming

(40:15):
up in the body and now we're trying to find
words for it. So there are there two ways, two
ways information can can travel. And that's also very important
because ultimately, and I think that's what I also really
like about NORM, because it's very agnostic about what a

(40:37):
healthy human being is. Ultimately, we just want people to
learn to relate to themselves from a grown up perspective,
be able to do what we do in the session
when they're alone.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
Well, So so with that, you know, there's a This
is actually something that I really appreciated when I was
when I was reading up about this to talk to you.

Speaker 4 (41:05):
But there's a.

Speaker 3 (41:08):
They, you know, and our society is very much this
destination approach, achievement approach rather than kind of the journey
approach or a curious or exploratory approach.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Could you.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
And that's something that I think I find still difficult
for myself, is like it's really hard not to be
goal oriented, like I want to be better tomorrow than
I am today, or I want to reduce this shame
by this much, or I want to you know, I'm
always like looking at these goals like could you talk
about you know this this difference and then this kind

(41:47):
of more of a exploratory approach versus like the problem
solving approach.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah. I think what I want to say as a
procke is that everything has its place. I think even
like setting goals and achieving them has its place. I
think human beings shouldn't just be reduced to floating through nature.

(42:20):
What I'm seeing about myself having had a few norm
sessions myself and having looked at at shame and how
shame comes up and how I'm shaming myself with things,
and how I relate to myself when I'm angry, and
how I relate to myself when I'm afraid, and and

(42:40):
you know, having having a person in front of me
who was very adapted at tuning to me and and
and seeing how how I needed this attunement and how
I need it also to be for example, told you're
doing a lot, you're not lazy. I'm not seeing somebody

(43:03):
lazy in front of me. For example, you're judging yourself
as lazy. I know you have the idea that you're lazy.
Like reframing it a little bit for me so that
I could see, oh ah, that's actually that's the idea
that I am lazy if I'm looking at my life

(43:25):
not seeing the life of a lazy person. So that
is a little bit about my own growth. Having having
looked at these things and having maybe let's say, taken
out the pressure of a few of these of these
moments places in me, I can now see that, of course,

(43:51):
I want to use my life for something that I
think is worthwhile doing, so very interesting training now for
six months on a regular basis, I'm like, oh, I'm
having this idea that only stupid people work out. But

(44:13):
the reality that I'm sensing right now, is it's actually
so good to have a trained body, no back pain anymore.
I'm present in my body. I have the sense of
having a little bit more testosterone. I have proof that
I have discipline, and that is a very grown up

(44:36):
way to think about the last six months working out.
So that's why I'm saying, I think everything has its place.
If you are living a shame based.

Speaker 4 (44:50):
Life with a.

Speaker 1 (44:54):
With deep self rejection and you haven't deconstructed that yet,
I pulled that apart. Look that it brought awareness and
curiosity and exploration in that you have to push very hard,
and the pushing heart is probably not pushing against the world.

(45:15):
You're pushing against.

Speaker 4 (45:16):
Yourself mostly half half maybe, but a.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
Lot of it might be pushing against yourself. Because when
you try to do something where you are showing up
on the stage of life, where you're maybe reshaping something
or whatnot, you will be confronted with shame from whatever
survival style that you are having, or you might be

(45:44):
confronted with the opposite of shame that is actually shame too,
which is called pride. I can't trust anybody, I'm so
poor and lonely, or f them I'm gonna do it
on my own, I'm the winner. That would be the
same thing. It just turned around into pride, and it's

(46:09):
probably backfire in exactly the same way as shame. So
exploration and curiosity and opening up is really necessary in
order to come to grips with what's going on in there.

(46:30):
The norm people call that internal organization. So how you
actually are organizing yourself, what the consequences are from this
internal organization, and then ultimately, okay, what do you like?
What then do you create in the world. And if
the internal organization is like shame, self attack, self rejection,

(46:53):
super identified with whatever drama is going on right now,
well I mean as within so without, So look at
that first, and then you can comfortably like start to
expand into.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
The world with this, with this internal organization. And I think,
you know, some of what you're talking here is like
there's some of these like labels that we apply either
to others or to ourselves. And one of the things
that I thought was really interesting and reading about this
is and studying some esoteric spiritual traditions, one of my

(47:38):
one of the things I realized they were talking about
but in different words, in a different language.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
That I that I saw and that I could realize
was that.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
We we often we live in a society, we live
in a world where we kind of we objectify the world,
We objectify ourselves, and and so that that idea of
ourselves is of this object and and so what I
what I like noticed in some of these religious traditions
is like we're moving towards this, you know, being the subject, being,

(48:10):
this living experience, being, this the life force, this living expression.
And so NORM I was really interested to see that
they do also they make this subjectification. I forget how
the word they use subjectification versus objectification. Could you could
you talk a little bit more about that, because it's

(48:32):
it's really interesting for me to hear it from a
modern psychological perspective versus two thousand year old text.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
I'm going to probably leave the NORM the NORM framework here.
I'm going to start with something strong. That that my
NORM trainer said is that let me give you the
definition of narcissism. And then everybody was like, now something
very elaborative is coming. And he said, well, it's such

(49:08):
somebody who objectifies themselves and everybody around them. It's like
looking at a chair seeing a chair and not liking
that the chair is where it is and wanting it
somewhere else. That's objectification. So imagine thinking of yourself like that.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
It's an ok to be used and moved or react.

Speaker 4 (49:37):
Object to be used.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
And I'm even self righteous about it, because in my
own view of myself, I have I have to be good.
Everybody kind of has to be good. If you shame yourself,
you kind of also do that to be good kind of.
So so I'm objectifying myself. I'm telling myself that the

(50:01):
way I am right now is not good enough, and
I have the means to get myself, fix myself, get
myself there where I want to go, and I do
I relate to the others exactly the same way. So
I see myself as a chair, and they also everybody
else is a chair as well. What is missing is relationship.

(50:24):
This has a very functional way of existing, and if
we're looking at the world right now, it's gotten even
worse in the last five years. And what can I
say about this subjective process that I am. I see

(50:47):
myself as a living process that's going into spirituality.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
So that's something that I've kind of felt like reading
this book that there are a few places that for
me it felt that it was there are parts that
were connected to a more spiritual sense.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
So when I'm setting up the sessions a new client
comes in, it is kind of prudent coming from norm
to to clarify the contract that you're having with them,
because well, on the one hand, you want to you
want to know what kind of state of being do

(51:28):
they want to embody once you're done with them, But
clarifying this contract in the sense of what would you
like to get out of our work together here, and
then listening between the lines when the people say a
lot of strategies what they want to do in a

(51:50):
new way and what they want to have in a
new way, but they miss the being most of the times,
well they just came out of society and landed in
my office. So my job is to like sense, what
is it actually that there is cribing on a being level?
And I think that is the that is really beautiful

(52:15):
when I'm kind of summarizing when we have worked through
that what people want to be, like, now, what kind
of state of being this they want to embody? Let's
put it like that they want to be at peace

(52:36):
with themselves? They want to be at peace with the world.
They want to be at peace with themselves in situation
where it is difficult for them to be at peace.
They want to be connected to themselves. They want to
be able to trust themselves and their gut feeling. They

(52:57):
want to be able to trust a contact they have
with another human And like, looking at that, we can
just if you have ever been on a spiritual retreat,
that's usually the result on the Sunday. On the Monday,
everybody crashes, but that's usually the result on the Sunday.

(53:22):
At the end of the spiritual retreat. We feel connected,
we feel trusting, we feel there, we're at peace. So
that is what people are longing for. That is what
people are coming in to lift for into sessions with
us for. And I think that I think this is

(53:45):
highly encouraging coming from this subjective thing that you were
asking about and from the self objectification that I that
I introduced narcissism with. It's like, actually, people want the opposite,
that they want to be at peace with the things,
maybe even as they are. And then we're just looking

(54:08):
at what's in the way, what comes up, and then
sometimes self objectification comes up. Sometimes shames comes up, sometimes
grief or anger comes up. And then under these emotions,
some of them are the usual emotions, and then under
these emotions there might be something else, and then looking
at that and completing these emotions can be very, very

(54:30):
helpful to then suddenly they're sitting there being like I'm
at peace right now. So yes, it really has a
spiritual dimension because it's not about getting people to function

(54:51):
better in society. That's not the goal. And by the way, that,
by the way, also wasn't Freud's goal that up. He
just watered it down a bit for it for this
whole psycho analysis thing to be a bit more palatable.
And yeah, the way is the path towards that is

(55:13):
exploration and curiosity.

Speaker 3 (55:15):
And so it's you bringing in your exploration and curiosity
and in a way kind of encouraging and opening that
up within the within me, within the client exactly.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
And therefore, and for that to be possible, I will
have to look at where I am still afraid, or
am I shaming myself, where I'm angry, where I'm doing
this or doing that. So so I mean there are

(55:50):
clients who trigger me. So it is basically also a
constant exploration of my own stuff that I have to
do at the side, not in the same session, in
order to bring the kind of openness and curiosity and

(56:12):
also wisdom to the interaction that is necessary.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
So let me so, so let me see if I
understand what you said there in a little bit is
like there there there's something about.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
You being.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
Kind of very real and authentic yourself as the therapist.
And so you know what what I often see is
like kind of normal therapy is that you know that
that cold dispassionate. I gotta I got my notepad and
my pen and I'm observing you and writing down my
judgments and ideas. But like, but there's not necessarily it's like,

(56:51):
oh damn, Gabriel, you just triggered you know, I'm feeling
this discomfort in my stomach right now, Like there's some
thing like being triggered, like talking about like what's real
and alive inside of you as well.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
Yeah, I would always frame it with as you have
been talking about this, I noticed this lump in my stomach.
I'm wondering it could be that is that this is
just my stuff going on here right now, But I
wonder if that resonates with you, and then sometimes they
go like, yeah, I got the same lump.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
Yeah, like I have a trigger and I'm projecting something
onto you. But then also, you know, sometimes you meet
with a client and you feel awkward, but that feeling
of awkwardness is is that resonance in a way of
kind of where they're coming into the session. Absolutely, and
so this instead of being cold and distant, you're being

(57:53):
very relational, very present, very honest, and very real with
yourself as well.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that is this as far as
I understood, this is the part that Norm stole from
psychodynamic psychotherapy. You know when somebody, the client is going
through something and then the therapist suddenly falls asleep because

(58:20):
there is this connection going on and then something important
happens and that kind of resonates in the therapist as well.
So I mean that's actually for me, it's the fun part.
As good codependent. I'm already very trained in perceiving the other,

(58:45):
but the training that I'm going through with the clients
that I'm having one on one, it's actually the cool
thing is to only stay with the other fifty percent
of my perceptive capacity and to give myself the other
fifty percent so that so that I so that I

(59:09):
can say if they look at me, it was somebody
actually present, not this is somebody like leaning and being like, oh,
what's happening, or somebody being completely detached with his notepad
there and being almost interested and told me more about that.

(59:29):
So being like in the.

Speaker 4 (59:30):
Middle of it.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
So and what what what that makes possible? And I
think that is a That is the coolest thing that
NORM trains you in is you become you become a sensor.
You you like, you train your antennas inside and outside.
So you're being I mean, that's the thing, that's the

(59:54):
report that you're building there. You're you're building a connection
between you and the other. You're building a connection between
you and yourself. You might be even be building a
connection between you and the child self of the other
and you and the grown up self of the other.
And you have to also have to have a connection

(01:00:14):
between the child self and the grown up self inside
of you. So you think that's coming from NLP like
this double five, triple layered rapport, but actually that is
what is very very cool because it's kind of in

(01:00:35):
built into NORM that you asked to have the antennas
out and to have the antennas in at the same time.
It's like that you're showing up also, you're kind of
showing up as a healthy grown up.

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
What was the name of the therapy that you said,
they kind of adapted this.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
I think it's called psychodynamic therapy psychodynamic And so there's
this just this deep attunement to kind of your own
in a way you're saying antenna but like.

Speaker 3 (01:01:06):
You're on your on intuition, your on God, like the
changes that are going on inside of you, and and
how that's connected to the relationship in this moment exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
And I don't know much about psychodynamics. I guess I
was only taught this fifty to fifty part to keep
that up in my contact with with the clients. And
I mean, that would be amazing to do that all day.
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
Is that something that you that you do during uh
your daily life or that you're aware of more during
your daily life.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
I'm I'm aware of I really got aware of that
when I started practicing norm and I want to try
to learn the techniques that that the way I started
to relate to UH closer people changed. I was a

(01:02:12):
little bit more removed because I was leaning too much
in so I was like us so much more so
much more relaxing to look at them a little bit
more for me outside and not to crawl into them
all the time. So and this is also yeah, it's

(01:02:34):
a it's a really good space and distance.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
So I know that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
In ARM they also talk about agency kind of rediscovering choice.
Can you can you maybe talk through how you would
help somebody work with agency and then also like maybe
how we could recognize like if we're operating out of
one of these survival adaptations versus what is an authentic choice?

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Yeah, I mean, first of all, if if shame is high,
agency is low. Because shame is the magic killer. And
this is a big question what is agency? We need
to define that first before we can go any further.

(01:03:25):
I think in if you grew up English speaking, you
have a little bit more of a feeling. What is
meant If the word agency is said as A. As
a German native speaker, I looked at that and I
was like, that's the A and CIA. So I need

(01:03:47):
to like prefer sention near that for myself. May okay.
So agency has to do something with direction and with
purpose or something like that. It has the flavor of purpose.
It wants something, something for myself, something connected to and

(01:04:11):
now back to norms, something apparently connected to the life
force that was bubbling through me while I was a toddler,
and so on. And so what I'm seeing right now
is when one of the pillars of norm is actually
called reinforcing agency. So that is one of the lenses

(01:04:33):
that I'm looking through when I'm relating to my client,
and that basically kind of means I'm looking at them.
I'm seeing like there is this life force glimpses coming
out of them, And of course I don't want to
pathologize them and just like sit with them in.

Speaker 4 (01:04:53):
The deep dark shadow of their.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
Beings might be necessary here or there. But reinforce saying
agency would mean that, of course, we like work on
the shame, We work on how they like try to
like keep life force down and not like, oh like
like expand and be a be a human being. So

(01:05:19):
so my idea would be, whenever that comes up, I'll
pull that I pull that threat a little bit, because
that is what people usually didn't allow themselves because agency
was shamed or it was necessary to like install shame

(01:05:42):
in order for for this life force that is connected
to agency not to come out in such a forceful
and alive way. So whenever that comes out, I pointed
it because like that everybody and me myself too. Going
back to my therapist, was said, you're doing a lot

(01:06:04):
and you're not lazy, Like she was reinforcing agency there.
She was like switching the lens. I'm looking at myself
in that moment towards being like this is actually I'm
doing a lot and it's all aligned with who I
want to be. Oh, and then suddenly I saw the

(01:06:31):
cascade of agency that was that I was building on
for the last two years. So yeah, it's my job
kind of to to point at it as well.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
So there's almost there's like you're calling it out there
when you're recognizing it, because we may not recognize it
in our ourselves. And I think too, you know, there's
it sounds like this is related a little bit to AH.
It kind of crosses paths with internal locus of control

(01:07:06):
versus external locus of control. So like recognizing what's what's
coming from my own will, my own passion, my own desire,
rather than trying to please you or please somebody else
or please society.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
Norm calls that in the external locus of control. Yeah
maybe Larry would would not agree, but a limited separation individuation,
So you can't like it's not easy for you to
separate from the others or separate from what's going on,

(01:07:45):
and you have a little bit of a disidentification being
an observer, but you're like completely invested in the drama
of your life and you still have this individuation. It's
like borrowed from from the young perspective. Individuation basically means

(01:08:07):
how much do you know yourself? How much do you
know who you are? We know people from complex trauma.
One of the characteristics of complex trauma is I don't
know who I am. So agency can't be high there
even if you're a work alic so, and then the

(01:08:28):
internal locus of control would be high separation and individuation.
I know who I am, I know where I'm going,
I know where I'm coming from, I know what I want. Yeah, so,
and that is basically also the space where agency dominates them.

Speaker 3 (01:08:47):
Just since you brought it up, I'm cough cough, asking
for a friend. Ah, I can't say I know somebody
who has a pattern of overworking or perfectionism? How my
arm help me approach that differently?

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
Well, we would maybe first of all, we would maybe
look at what's the the embodied state of being that.

Speaker 4 (01:09:15):
You would like to that you would like to have
for yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
And then we we might look at a situation where
you do not have this or would you like or
where you would like to have a little bit more
of this embodied state of being. Maybe even related to
this perfectionism thing that you talked about, is there a
situation that that that might come up around that? And
then you talk about the situation and then the things

(01:09:44):
start to happen, and then probably the situation is being
dragged from a week ago to the here and now,
and then we can just like oscillate between back then
and what's happening now and how is it actually to
if you like talking to yourself like that, how is
that when you like when he's a perfectionistic like is there?

(01:10:06):
Can you describe that for me? What are you doing
with yourself in that moment? They can get very like
tingling and very strong, really starts hurting or whatnot? Is
that okay? Is that happening right now? You're kind of okay,
So how is it to experience that in this moment?
It's interesting? So it's like that we could like take

(01:10:30):
it apart a little bit and maybe we'll find some
more things.

Speaker 3 (01:10:36):
And I like the beginning of that approach is there's
there's kind of this positive of like what's the embodied
state of what we'd like to be and so almost
kind of a reframing of of adding something new or
being being this thing rather than necessarily.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
What I want to get rid of or what I
want to shed.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, you or your friend,
you created this perfectionistic strategy for a reason, a good reason,
and I mean we could like brush by that as well,

(01:11:22):
what's the good reason? This is something that your friend does.

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):
Well?

Speaker 3 (01:11:30):
So this friend was often only given validation or praise
for getting perfect scores and was even you know, was
always pointed out the faults for getting a ninety eight
out of a hundred or for making slight wrongs, and
was often punished or threatened for slight imperfections.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
That's sad to hear ninety eight is also still almost perfect,
isn't it? Not?

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
In au not in this friend's world that actually that
you know, it's so the last thing I said was
it was a little bit of a joke, but as
an authentic response because I heard that there's like this,
I don't know, there's there was like a feeling of sadness,
but also a realization the ninety eight is all almost

(01:12:24):
perfect or close to perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
If I, if I were a good NORM petitioner, I
would have caught that because there there was a little
you hesitated for a moment. Yeah, yeah, and and this
has it.

Speaker 4 (01:12:40):
I got that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
I understand I caught it. So, hey, there was this hesitation.
I said this to you, and there was this short
moment before you had a little bit of an explanation
or whatnot. But I'm interested this little moment there.

Speaker 3 (01:12:58):
Curious, Yeah, because there's you know, there was like a
you know, it is weird living in a world where
you focus where you're a minus two instead of a
plus ninety eight. Yeah, and I think that's the world

(01:13:18):
that I've lived most of my life in, is that
you only see and feel that minus two rather than
that that plus.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
So if you just take the difference, just taste both
of them. If how that is in your system, if
you're like plus ninety eight or you're a minus two.
What's the what's the different tastes?

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
Like, So there's a.

Speaker 3 (01:13:46):
The minus two is like there's this deviation from perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
But even in.

Speaker 3 (01:13:53):
Talking about it this way, there's like a that that
plus ninety eight is off of zero. And so there's
this greater sense of kind of comfort, piece joy, achievement,
even from kind of recognizing the I want to say gift,

(01:14:15):
I don't know if that's the right word, but recognizing
the gift of having done so well, Like you know,
there's a I think related to this is like a
sense of goodness and sometimes badness. And so there's like
a goodness, kind of a feeling of goodness associated with

(01:14:37):
with that ninety eight, where there's this badness associated with
that that minus two. And so there's like a just
a huge shift of moving in like really different directions.

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
Yeah, and I mean that that is what I like doing.
I like like to try these on and you look
at your face. How that changed to do really good?
That seems to vibe with you?

Speaker 3 (01:15:08):
It does, It does really vibe with me because again,
you know, I'm going to go back to the language
I used originally, that that deviation you know, there's this
negative deviation from perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
Just imagine, just imagine back then. Back then, Uh, somebody
would have like said, man, Andy, you have the capacity
to do really good. I need to explain to you
what capacity means, but man, you have to like.

Speaker 4 (01:15:41):
Just like that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
I think it it also opens up there's this window
of being able to celebrate myself, like just and just
to celebrate in general. Yeah, coming in having done well
and kind of getting rain on the parade versus I

(01:16:05):
guess having what what area would you say that this
would kind of fall in? Would that be would this
be like attunement or connection or is there I would
you look at it from that sense?

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
No, No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't right now not to
look at it from that sense. Yeah, I think I
would like to then get to know you a little
bit more and then compare my notes so to say,
mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
Yeah, capacity to good celebrate self hmm yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:16:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:36):
And it's especially how how is it to how is
it to to try that on and see and see
how how you're experiencing yourself when you're looking at it
from that perspective.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
Yeah, yeah, I can I can see this, I can
feel this because I do think that this is a.

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
There's this constant evaluation.

Speaker 3 (01:17:00):
And that that occurs inside of me, and so I
can kind of see just this a shift. And you know,
even even if some of that constant evaluation was changed
to be from ah, I guess what I'd call here,

(01:17:20):
maybe more of a growth perspective than this self limited perspective,
would just really change my my affect and my mood.

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
And I'm generally a pretty.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):
Calm guy on the outside, but inside there's still you know,
a lot of turmoil.

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:17:44):
So well, I appreciate I appreciate that reframing on there,
and I think, you know, right here, I think there's
like this, I can see this.

Speaker 2 (01:17:54):
I don't want to call it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
You did it, you did it yourself. I just I
just repeat it and I organized the sentence a.

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):
Little m Thank you for that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:08):
So I'm wondering if you could share maybe other transformations
that you've seen in people using NORM, because this was
like it was subtle yet not so subtle.

Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
That's the interesting thing with NORM. Yeah, it is subtle,
but not so subtle. I mean, just imagine relating to
yourself differently, and it's rather profound. We take like eighteen
nineteen twenty one years to create this self thing in us,

(01:18:47):
and then we're having these troubles with our lives. Also
a Youngian perspective would be having this evidence of wanting
so we created a self that actually has these kinds
of results, and just imagining going back into the space

(01:19:13):
where yourself lives this here the body mind system, and
being able to slowly find out what you're actually doing
there and taking away the conflicts that you have created

(01:19:36):
in there where opposing forces are trying to make something
happen that will never happen because there are opposing forces
who are actually the same strength, or if the system
gets overwhelmed, we kind of have an unhealthy app reaction

(01:20:00):
acting out or acting in. So really deconstructing that in
a benevolent space that is, you know, held with an
open heart, and you can go in there and you
can work in there, you can do your work in there.

(01:20:23):
I think that is the beauty that Norm has brought
to my life. And I'm also seeing with the people
that I'm working with or what I'm especially also seeing
because I try to do that in the classes. It's

(01:20:46):
of course not possible to go there in depth with
ten minutes per person. But it's so interesting to hold
this perspective of fifty percent you, fifty percent me. I'm
allowed to have reactions here. I'm allowed to be slow.

(01:21:12):
I'm allowed to also maybe bring my own perspective. I'm
allowed to invite the other person if to if they're curious,
to deconstruct what they just said, and trying to hold
this this atmosphere of welcome and open heart. I think

(01:21:37):
that is really nice and I think NORM being in
that NORM training and seeing people doing that very well
gave me a lot of options and a lot of like,
I got a lot of hope that I could stretch
myself into that I really liked. I really liked that.

Speaker 3 (01:22:00):
Yeah, I can really see too, you know, thinking about
the attunement, the resonance, and even the modeling is how
can you help somebody become more fully human if you're
not allowing yourself to be fully human yourself and experience

(01:22:21):
that that full range of authenticity exactly?

Speaker 1 (01:22:27):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:22:29):
Who let me ask, you know, if how could people
learn more about NORM rather as clients, practitioners, or if
they're just curious.

Speaker 1 (01:22:42):
NORM was developed by doctor Lawrence Heller, who was a
semantic experiencing a trainer before that, and he's like clinically
trained in all of this, so so you can you
can learn that in a training it is norm training

(01:23:05):
dot com. That would be basically a way to away
into that universe. And then he also he also has
a book as well. Right, he has a book let me.
The podcast is called Transforming Trauma, and he has two books.

(01:23:27):
One is called Healing Developmental Trauma that's already like over
ten years old. I find it very theoretical, but if
you want to know about the survival styles, that would
be the go to and the other one is called
The Practical Guide to Healing Developmental Trauma, and that is

(01:23:52):
definitely more practical, and it outlines the NORM principles and
the different the different organizing principles and the four pillars
of NORM, and it talks about emotional completion process, so
everything that you would need to know to to get
a little bit deeper into it. And in the Practical

(01:24:16):
Guide there are also many little explorations which I also
like to do in the beginning of the lift classes.
I also take always take a topic to explore and
and and then do it in a Normic kind of way.

Speaker 4 (01:24:37):
Help people to explore.

Speaker 1 (01:24:38):
For example, when we are going through resentment, then I
ask them to bring up a tiny resentment that they're
having and and see what happens in them as they're
remembering that situation, and how they relate to themselves in
these situations, and and how it is to actually know

(01:25:02):
see that and be a little bit outside of it
and looking at it so they get a little bit
of disidentification. So that is how I've kind of engineered
it into the LIFT classes and you will get explorations
like that in the Healing Developmental Trauma book from Larry

(01:25:23):
as well. Well.

Speaker 3 (01:25:24):
Gabriel, thanks so much for sharing your insight and your
guidance today, and so for those who are listening, I
hope this gave you something to reflect on in your
own journey. Until next time, take care. Thank you, Thank
you for joining us on the Time with Tim podcast.

(01:25:46):
If you'd like to share your own experiences or have questions,
feel free to email us at podcasts at Tim Fletcher
dot CAA want to learn more about complex trauma, subscribe
to him Fletcher's YouTube channel for past lectures and is
Friday Night Tim Talks. You can also connect with us
on Instagram. Facebook, LinkedIn, and TikTok. Looking for more support,

(01:26:12):
We offer programs and courses to help with healing complex
trauma and recovering from addictions. Visit Tim Fletcher dot ca
to learn more or send us an inquiry. We're here
to support you until we meet again. Take care and
thank you for letting us be a part of your
healing journey.

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S3E06 | Understanding NARM: A New Way to Heal Complex Trauma with Gabriel Schüßler

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S3E06 | Understanding NARM: A New Way to Heal Complex Trauma with Gabriel Schüßler