February 16, 2025 • 32 mins
Mary Crocker Cook, Ph.D, has over 40 years of experience as a therapist. Her latest book is Bad Taste, Self-Care, and Financial Planning for Women with Bad Taste in Men. In its own way, it's a love letter to people like her who, along the way, do not always choose wisely when it comes to men. It's for women who are working through early life experiences to create a richer, more joyous life in the present. I know there is a community of women out there who are struggling to create "upgrades" in their selection process, and along the way, we still get derailed. This little book is an attempt to give women harm reduction strategies so that when they stumble, it's not off the cliff! As a therapist, I have watched countless smart, funny, responsible, loving women choose mates unwisely. I am glad my home girl encouraged me to write my thoughts down because I have had conversations over the years with so many women, and I know how hard they try to make what can seem insurmountable relationships work.
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Episode Transcript
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Virgin, Beauty, Bitch, Podcast (00:00):
Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share
(00:09):
unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts,
Christopher and Heather, let's talk, shall we? Before we get into conversation first,
a question you could answer silently in your head if you like. Have you ever had a
"What Was I Thinking Relationship?" You know the one after a few weeks and months
(00:34):
hopefully not years into the relationship. You finally get what friends and
family were on about. It's one of those don't remind me relationships. But do you
ever wonder what made a smart woman like you go down that rocky road in the
first place? First four answers. We say welcome to licensed therapist and
(00:56):
certified addiction counselor Mary Crocker. Cook welcome Mary to Virgin Beauty
Bitch. Well thank you for having me. Love the intro. Love it. Love it. Love it.
Thank you for doing this. Now Mary, you you have a PhD in your title. I'm always
impressed. You have over 30 years of experience as a therapist. I take it that
(01:17):
you you are smart, discerning woman who works with the human psyche on a
daily basis. But in your own words, you are also a woman with historically bad taste
in men. In fact, you wrote the book Bad Taste Self Care and Financial Planning for
Women With Bad Taste in Men. So can we get a baseline of qualities what like bad
(01:41):
taste in men? Do you have any personal examples of what women might be able to
relate to as what you call bad taste in men? Well, I mean, you know, the this is
really comes from the fact that I do work with really marvelous women in over the
years. And I think for a lot of us, we have a lot of strengths in many areas. And
(02:04):
then we have some holes, right? Holes in our development. And one of the things I
talk about a lot in my book has to do with our early childhood experience of
not necessarily connecting effectively early, early interruptions in our
attachment. And so we don't the part of us that developed the ability to be seen
(02:28):
and heard accurately was not there. We didn't we didn't have that experience. And
so we grow up and we wind up choosing partners who who also cannot see in
here as accurately. And they come in a lot of different outfits. Sometimes they're
(02:48):
married. Sometimes they're addicted to alcohol or drugs. Sometimes they're in jail.
Sometimes they are neurodiverse to the point where they can't participate
effectively. There's the there's the kind that really would just prefer to use
us financially. So there's a lot of different ways. There's not one particular
(03:13):
thing. And the book is really not about the men. It's really more about us and why we
we keep finding ourselves in these positions. And also how to take care of
yourself because just because you're in a undesirable relationship doesn't mean
you're going to leave right now if ever. And a lot of the self-help books that
(03:34):
even I've written a lot of books, you know, talk about why we're here and why we
need to leave. But the truth is a lot of us won't be leaving or if we do we go pick
another one. And so what do you do? What do you do? I have a lot of strengths in
other areas. This one I need to be able to manage myself and my kids because I
(03:56):
find myself in a situation that is hard. It's hard for me. But I love him or he's
the father or he's providing. You know what I'm saying? There's a lot of reasons we
stay. So it's really my love for us and the fact that some of us stay. We just stay
sometimes for a while in relationships that even though everyone around us
(04:18):
says, I don't know what you're doing here. You need to leave. Oh my god. New Year's
said then done. It really it really is. And you know what I love about your blog and
the book is that you've taken hilarity and heartbreak and kind of woven these
things together in a way that is I find really approachable for what the
(04:41):
experiences like for so many women. And you know when you're talking about women
you know not leaving from a bad relationship or just going right into the next
one. It's a really poignant point because you know the other thing that women
are thinking and what you know research has shown is when she does decide to
(05:04):
leave if she does. It's one of the most dangerous times for her with the
potential of a retaliation from her partner. So there's a lot at stake you know
whether it's emotionally, financially, psychologically and then also the
possibility of what happens when you do decide to go. So what what probed you to
(05:28):
take you know like this the real heartbreak and make it into this kind of a
platform to bring some humor into into the conversation. Well because it's my
nature to find the ridiculous and just about any situation possible and it is
one of my survival skills and it works for me and I've been teaching for a very
(05:53):
long time and I have to teach sometimes hard topics and one of the things that
we know is people learn best when they're relaxed and particularly if it's
funny and in fact when you think about comments that you're particularly fond of
you can remember phrases and things that they say not just because it's funny but
because it's true right and so part of part of how I try to manage the balance
(06:19):
between recognizing that this is hard is that there are points in time that
are ridiculous you know the things we tell ourselves right the rationalizations
we use I mean some of them are very silly actually but we do it we do it like
when I went through my bike or phase for a month you know anyway these
(06:41):
ridiculous all right and it's like particularly in retrospect you're like oh my
god what was I thinking it's like your introduction
I know I know so this has happened to try to give it a try this this has happened to
you I assume more than once so being as you are a very smart woman why why did
(07:04):
this happen to you more than once do you believe oh I know why because I've had
like a bazillion years of therapy and 12 steps I would say like most of the women
I'm talking about I did not I did not have really solid early attachments in
terms of emotional I was not seen in her even though I was well cared for I think
(07:29):
there there is definitely a part of me that's always struggled with finding
mutual relationship and so I have a tendency because when you when you don't
trust attachments some people develop it an anxious approach meaning they're
constantly trying to connect how we do and how we do and how we do and some of
(07:51):
us develop more avoidant approach where we're always waiting for it to end and
so we're pretty quick to be able to say least inside of us okay well I guess you
know I don't matter here either doesn't mean we leave but we're able to just
just sort of kind of don't fully show up because why okay if I'm a person that
(08:15):
can pretty easily interpret you're not available it means I know how to be
unavailable also okay because I don't chase I'm the kind I'm the I'm the
avoidant kind right so I'm not gonna chase you I'm gonna go okay I guess that's
what we're doing now and then we just live parallel like this right so yeah
(08:37):
so that is not effective I don't recommend it but in terms of in terms of
coping yeah it works well but it means that I can spend and people with my
style of attachment can spend a lot of times in relationships actually pretty
lonely because because it's you're still not seen and heard you're still not
(08:59):
connected even though you're in a relationship right and it's not even a
high-conquering relationship it's just that you're not fully in you're not
integrating your your relationship emotionally or intimately right so yeah I
think I think the heart wants what it wants I put that in the book right the heart
(09:20):
wants what it wants and I think there's a part of people who did not get that
early attachment that always wants it so we hope lies eternal right so you
have chemistry with somebody or they're funny or they're smart or initially
they seem available and you're like okay well all right maybe right maybe
(09:42):
that's how I went through my you know phase maybe but you know without you know
I'm better now I'm much better now but certainly when I was younger I couldn't
see and I think a lot of women don't we we're so focused on the maybe we don't see
(10:04):
what they're actually saying about themselves right because people give you so
much information about who they are but you're not listening what I see is
women don't listen to ourselves right if somebody says to you gee you know you
have never been good with relationships and we think oh yeah I'd be different
(10:26):
no you won't be okay right or no one's I've never felt this way about anybody my
whole life really because I'm yet to have you know I see this and listen people
they absolutely you know they will tell you but a lot of us didn't we just didn't
(10:53):
get the memo to learn how to listen also our bodies are so smart your body will
tell you your body has reactions to people just like you're you know in fact
chemically we feel things before they you know our body feels it before our head
knows it okay and so part of this becoming better at this is paying attention to
(11:17):
your physical cues right like I was talking to a woman the other day and she
said her daughter every time her daughter goes out with the sky she when she
comes home as she throws up hello hello your body's so smart okay your body
saying hmm listen even though your head says oh but he's funny he's cute or what
(11:43):
yeah your body says get out and we override it we overwrite it right use our logic
you know oh I love his family oh but he's you know he's so stable and he has a nice
(12:03):
job whatever our bodies know right no no no I
think that it I was gonna ask you know why do we continue to fall for red flags
even when we know better and I think what you've you've summarized there is
really the key pieces you know how women have silenced themselves and listening
(12:30):
to their body listening to that inner voice or what have you yeah it's it can
send an important loud message sometimes sometimes it's a very
visceral response and exactly exactly the other thing that we do a lot of
times is we stop breathing so one of the things about anxiety is that we what
(12:53):
you'll notice when you're around certain people because we you know our
nervous systems all resonate with each other okay and there are certain people
you're around and you can find yourself if you pay attention literally holding
your breath like you don't breathe you're not breathing what's wrong right why
why don't you feel safe to breathe why it's almost like you're waiting for the
(13:17):
next thing what's the next shoot a job when is the next mood swing when is the
next you know and so again and I've had people sitting in my office I'll say you
know I'll have to remind them to breathe because I can see that they're breathing
and when you breathe really shallow you feel lightheaded you feel like you're
well because you're literally not getting enough air okay so what is that right
(13:42):
that you cannot fully be in your body around a person okay so paying attention
and then finding people in your world even if I let's say I can't leave but I
need other people I can breathe with okay I need to sometimes breathe so
even if you're a high maintenance dude and it kind of on the moody swing side right
(14:06):
or well you're criminal I put in the book how expensive criminals are expensive
we love them but they're very expensive I put in here you know how much how I
explain how bail works and and all this kind of you know how much it costs how
do you cost when you love a man who goes to jail a lot very important your name
(14:28):
is on the lease and not theirs because they could they're suddenly unemployed for
while okay so you know there's things they're expensive but you love them all
right you know you you do hold your breath when you were the criminal lot because
you're not quite sure they're exciting but a little unstable so I need to be
(14:49):
around other people who when I am with them my nervous system can rest I need
succumbed right because I can sort of regroup so I can be okay moving forward to
whatever's next is is the affection for the bad boy a real thing oh very yeah it
(15:13):
is and part of it really is there's a couple things you know one of the things
about people who there's two different things there's there's people who do
crime for other reasons meaning I'm addicted to meth I need to do crime to do
meth okay and then there's the I like to do crime and I do meth to do more crime
(15:37):
okay so it depends on who we're talking about okay most of my career has been
the kind that do crime in order to do meth okay so what you're talking about
with that kind is the kind of guy it's basically a good guy but he's addicted and
(15:58):
so what happens is your judgment goes offline okay and your impulse control is
really bad so you're bad criminal you're bad criminal you get a left-rested
alive you know I mean you're not a cartel member you you should be at it I've
actually said to guys like this this is not the career for you you keep getting
(16:18):
arrested clearly this is not for you all right even though in their head they
think they're like breaking bad no they're not okay so in my mind they're like
you know in our local our local thing is called Elmwood prison they're like Elmwood
do it's okay they're not San Juan okay they're Elmwood and then you know they have
(16:40):
this inflated sense of self so they're adorable okay so I think it's like naughty
puppies all right so but they're expensive all right so that's how I think of
them all right I'm like oh yeah and the truth is when they get clean and sober they
stop priming I mean they're always still a little iffy in some ways but they're
not you know they stock the priming and you're and the world gets a little more
(17:02):
stable and then you've got the career runs the career criminals are not going
to stop priming they're a little harder because they really don't connect
very well and so with them what you're doing with them is you're primarily going to
take care of them it's not going to go the other direction okay and so then you've
(17:27):
got a dynamic that's on the more codependent side where I'm taking care of you
right it's because there's no way if you're professional criminal that is your
job by the way and so you're not focused on how it affects other people I mean
you're you're not right and you and it's baked in that you're going to disappear
(17:49):
for long periods of time right and so it's a different kind of animal you know
I've had women that actually you know married men in doing long-term prison you
know 25 years alive whatever that's a hard life I do not recommend it now even
say in the book don't have a child with them because I had that too where they
(18:09):
have a baby with somebody is doing life and then you're a single parent so I
think our ability to make ourselves pretend we're a family we have a lot of
skills but the truth is that's a hard way to do it so if you're going to pick a
criminal I'd go with the Elmwood kind I would not recommend the San
(18:32):
Quentin kind I just in general because what the Elmwood kind they might stop
priming I mean they might get sober okay and you might be able to do this thing
and the other kind just aren't gonna they're they like crime it is their thing
that's what they do and for the most part now they can change if they want to
(18:52):
but it's hard it gets harder and harder for them with every stint right some of
them have been going to jail since baby jail which is you know like the ranches
and juvenile and and the truth is by the time I'm doing serious time I probably
have a lot of friends in there I mean it's it's my it's my community right so
(19:15):
second anything like even with addiction if you stop drinking and using you have
to leave your community sometimes and it's painful right if I'm a professional
criminal that's my community right so yeah that becomes your community so you
need to think about that so there's a lot to consider if you want to choose one of
(19:36):
them but sometimes again the heart wants what it was there you go I I definitely
hear you there another thing that kind of came to mind while you were speaking
is that it feels like when women either stay in a relationship because you
know bad taste in men and then continue to kind of find the bad boy or somebody who
(19:59):
isn't treating them right there's there's still a lingering pressure it's not
of course what it used to be but I still feel that when I talk to women there's
a self-worth that's only measured by how someone else can commit to you or an
effect like an effect on their self-worth if there's somebody else's inability
(20:20):
to commit you're right and it feels like you know we're waiting sometimes to be
chosen and to continue to get to be chosen by someone and that we pay place so
much emphasis on our self-worth because of it and you know I don't want it to
sound cliche but it feels like you know some of the transition in in modern
(20:43):
womanhood is is really what what does it mean to choose myself so that I'm not
looking for someone else to choose me to feel valuable you're exactly right I
think and particularly if you didn't get this the early attachment your
conclusion about why you were not seen and heard is there must be something
(21:04):
wrong with me because children don't think it's the parents they think it's
them so if I was smart enough tall enough thin enough good enough student
whatever they would hear me and see me and treat me like I matter right and so
yeah you're exactly you're right on Heather so the idea would be yeah I if
(21:27):
somebody if somebody chooses me yeah I'm always that's part of the hope the
hope of a of a relationship that somebody will finally choose me like they'll
actually I'll be good enough right they'll they'll stay because they want to stay
because I'm worth staying with and you're right there is a little girl part of us
(21:47):
that is still hoping and that but and again the setup though is I keep choosing the
least likely people that would choose me right right so so we walk into a room
you know of 99 available lovely men I know a lot of them 99 I promise you my
(22:10):
radar will find the biggest jackass in a room I know I absolutely will now what
recovery has taught me is I don't go there anymore like I tell my little girl
part oh no honey no we're not going over there okay we're not going right today
honey not today not today honey but I see him okay so the the the it's true my hard
(22:34):
wiring is I do look for it so we can I don't know for some of us we'll never not have
that instinct but we can work around it and we can turn you know literally turn
and say okay what are my other choices here because there are available people
it's are not anti men at all I love men but I think a lot of us don't recognize
(22:58):
availability we have a really hard time with it doesn't mean they're not there
they are it seems like it doesn't give you the same benefits even though they're
negative for some reason the person you choose gives you gives you something
like what is it that they give you that is so invaluable to you in that moment
(23:21):
even though you you may even know you're making a bad choice yes yeah it's because
in that moment you actually feel like you're seeing in her for whatever reason
you feel that they they suck for whatever reason you feel like you matter to
them in that moment and it's like and it's but it's and it's fleeting it doesn't
(23:47):
last but it's kind of like you know like for me if I use my example of the
unavailable person I go oh okay we yeah across the crowded room I think oh I must
have that one so I go over and talk to that one and that person most likely in that
moment gives me their full attention and I interpret that as availability and
(24:11):
it's not got nothing to do the availability but I'll read it like that like oh look
yay right and really it's just because they happen to be available for that
moment but that's not how they normally roll then what I'll do is I'll spend the
(24:31):
rest of the time trying to recapture that moment right I mean I hear this all
the time he's so different than you know we were first dating it's like yes I know
we all are right we're all in our early magical thinking you know Carl Jung
he said he didn't even want to do therapy with people who are in love to say
because they're delusional he's right and that's part of what's sweet about it
(24:56):
there's a delusional phase and it's lovely when you're both in it okay but if
only one of you is that's a problem okay and that's what happens it's so true and
I'm just wondering if like for any of our listeners who may be feeling lost or
stuck or just over it when it comes to dating do you have any advice to to
(25:21):
share with them I would say that the only way you will change the people you
day is to change yourself and the only way I meet anybody available is I have to
look at my own availability because the truth is if I keep choosing unavailable
people I am the common denominator and the only power I have is over my
(25:45):
availability okay and so you know what I've noticed even on my own recovery
over time is I definitely I think of it as like buying cars you always want to
upgrade right and so relationships are very similar and you the goal here is to
like I had a therapist here is ago told me I'd have the relationship I'd have the
(26:07):
level of intimacy I could tolerate and she was dead on I love their
business dead on so the the thing I can manage here is what what what am I so
afraid of because the truth is we're scared we're scared to get okay and and I need
to be able to be firm in myself I need to enjoy my own company I need to be
(26:32):
solid right I'm gonna be okay no matter what right and not in a defensive
posture you know not in a well-so-fuck you feel I mean it's more like I'm gonna be
okay so I can tolerate the risk because that's what it is love is a risk every
time because if you let people in they can hurt you they can also make your life
(26:56):
fabulous okay we always forget there's the good outcome right so the only way
you're gonna get the joyful outcome is you give it a shot but you need to do it
from a position of you're not deluding yourself you're in reality you see what
you see in my book I say that over and over again don't lie to yourself do not
(27:19):
lie to yourself even if it isn't pretty okay your best shot is to say this is
what's really available this is how much I'm willing to do right and you match
you match so it's a work in progress you also need friends who will not lie to
you I have on my on my website www.badtasteinmen.com there's a free
(27:45):
PDF for the friends of people with bad taste because it isn't just that it hurts
you everyone who loves you suffers too it's hard on us it's hard on people who
love people with bad taste because you know you can see it coming you can see
by the look on the face I put that in my book my friends know by the look on my
face like oh no I don't know again she's in a delusional phase shit okay so they
(28:14):
need support too because you know when you love somebody you don't want to end
the friendship or at you know their family member but it's like I still need to
be able to have some boundaries because I can only hear so many stories okay I
don't want to be hijacked all the way through your nuttiness right so there is
that it's available and it's for free okay that's good to know that there's an
(28:36):
extra resource on there that's fantastic we love to ask our guests you know if
there's one of our archetypes on this show that we explore that you have a
story with or you have you know it means something to you so of the virgin
the beauty and the bitch do any of those strike a chord and and why yeah no it's
(28:59):
absolutely I would say the bitch one of the things I talk about in allen on a lot
is that I you know I have my inner dragon my father was a military officer and I
can go there and I particularly when I feel like I'm being pushed I feel like I'm
being pushed against the wall or I feel like I'm losing options or whatever my
(29:21):
deal is right I do have that part of me it's like it gets milled that I say you
know my father has joined us there's a tone of voice I get and it's hard and
people be like whoa okay so I've learned to try to manage that inner dragon but
is there and I have to watch for her because now she can also be helpful right which
(29:46):
is where some of my students will say you know well miss cook don't play all right
they recognize I have a dragon okay but I also love them ridiculously and so
there's the balancing where I need her sometimes I need that part of me and at
the same time I can't live there that would be very bad I'd be the screaming to
(30:06):
get off my long lady okay I don't want that but I don't want to get rid of her
fully either right I need that part of me we're we are so happy to hear your
perspective Heather and I are working on a project to someone once said to us
(30:26):
that women need to learn to be better bitches and we're working on that as
a aspect of bringing that side of the bitch into the light as you just said
it's it's a part of you that you need that is necessary sometimes right so
in the future we'll probably reach out to you again to help us talk on that
(30:48):
topic alone oh feel free I because I you know I think you know there's an old book
dance dance of anger one of my very favorite old books and yeah what's the
purpose of the anger because sometimes anger gives you energy and it moves you
forward right and a lot but a lot of people are afraid of it they're afraid of
(31:09):
anger their own other peoples and that's another reason we wind up stuck sometimes
so yeah give me a shout absolutely give us the website again for your book and
where people are www.badtastedinmen.com if it's you you'll remember and again
(31:30):
there is the free PDF for your people who love you fabulous Mary this is
this is fantastic because I mean I do this was fun I don't know a woman or man
really that hasn't gone through this process of choosing badly and regretting it
and not understanding why they keep doing the same thing over and over and over again
(31:50):
so this is very very valuable thank you so much for taking the time to do this
with us you are very welcome it's been a joy and how you bring hilarity and
heartbreak and not to let us it break us it it's a joy to have you with us so
thank you thank you and you have been listening to the virgin the beauty and the
(32:12):
dragon bitch find us like a sheriff bring your friends come on back let's learn
some things together to become a partner in the bbb community we invite you to
find us at virginbeautybitch.com like us on Facebook Instagram and LinkedIn and
(32:34):
share us with people who are defiantly different like you until next time thanks
for listening
Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share
(00:09):
unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts,
Christopher and Heather, let's talk, shall we? Before we get into conversation first,
a question you could answer silently in your head if you like. Have you ever had a
"What Was I Thinking Relationship?" You know the one after a few weeks and months
(00:34):
hopefully not years into the relationship. You finally get what friends and
family were on about. It's one of those don't remind me relationships. But do you
ever wonder what made a smart woman like you go down that rocky road in the
first place? First four answers. We say welcome to licensed therapist and
(00:56):
certified addiction counselor Mary Crocker. Cook welcome Mary to Virgin Beauty
Bitch. Well thank you for having me. Love the intro. Love it. Love it. Love it.
Thank you for doing this. Now Mary, you you have a PhD in your title. I'm always
impressed. You have over 30 years of experience as a therapist. I take it that
(01:17):
you you are smart, discerning woman who works with the human psyche on a
daily basis. But in your own words, you are also a woman with historically bad taste
in men. In fact, you wrote the book Bad Taste Self Care and Financial Planning for
Women With Bad Taste in Men. So can we get a baseline of qualities what like bad
(01:41):
taste in men? Do you have any personal examples of what women might be able to
relate to as what you call bad taste in men? Well, I mean, you know, the this is
really comes from the fact that I do work with really marvelous women in over the
years. And I think for a lot of us, we have a lot of strengths in many areas. And
(02:04):
then we have some holes, right? Holes in our development. And one of the things I
talk about a lot in my book has to do with our early childhood experience of
not necessarily connecting effectively early, early interruptions in our
attachment. And so we don't the part of us that developed the ability to be seen
(02:28):
and heard accurately was not there. We didn't we didn't have that experience. And
so we grow up and we wind up choosing partners who who also cannot see in
here as accurately. And they come in a lot of different outfits. Sometimes they're
(02:48):
married. Sometimes they're addicted to alcohol or drugs. Sometimes they're in jail.
Sometimes they are neurodiverse to the point where they can't participate
effectively. There's the there's the kind that really would just prefer to use
us financially. So there's a lot of different ways. There's not one particular
(03:13):
thing. And the book is really not about the men. It's really more about us and why we
we keep finding ourselves in these positions. And also how to take care of
yourself because just because you're in a undesirable relationship doesn't mean
you're going to leave right now if ever. And a lot of the self-help books that
(03:34):
even I've written a lot of books, you know, talk about why we're here and why we
need to leave. But the truth is a lot of us won't be leaving or if we do we go pick
another one. And so what do you do? What do you do? I have a lot of strengths in
other areas. This one I need to be able to manage myself and my kids because I
(03:56):
find myself in a situation that is hard. It's hard for me. But I love him or he's
the father or he's providing. You know what I'm saying? There's a lot of reasons we
stay. So it's really my love for us and the fact that some of us stay. We just stay
sometimes for a while in relationships that even though everyone around us
(04:18):
says, I don't know what you're doing here. You need to leave. Oh my god. New Year's
said then done. It really it really is. And you know what I love about your blog and
the book is that you've taken hilarity and heartbreak and kind of woven these
things together in a way that is I find really approachable for what the
(04:41):
experiences like for so many women. And you know when you're talking about women
you know not leaving from a bad relationship or just going right into the next
one. It's a really poignant point because you know the other thing that women
are thinking and what you know research has shown is when she does decide to
(05:04):
leave if she does. It's one of the most dangerous times for her with the
potential of a retaliation from her partner. So there's a lot at stake you know
whether it's emotionally, financially, psychologically and then also the
possibility of what happens when you do decide to go. So what what probed you to
(05:28):
take you know like this the real heartbreak and make it into this kind of a
platform to bring some humor into into the conversation. Well because it's my
nature to find the ridiculous and just about any situation possible and it is
one of my survival skills and it works for me and I've been teaching for a very
(05:53):
long time and I have to teach sometimes hard topics and one of the things that
we know is people learn best when they're relaxed and particularly if it's
funny and in fact when you think about comments that you're particularly fond of
you can remember phrases and things that they say not just because it's funny but
because it's true right and so part of part of how I try to manage the balance
(06:19):
between recognizing that this is hard is that there are points in time that
are ridiculous you know the things we tell ourselves right the rationalizations
we use I mean some of them are very silly actually but we do it we do it like
when I went through my bike or phase for a month you know anyway these
(06:41):
ridiculous all right and it's like particularly in retrospect you're like oh my
god what was I thinking it's like your introduction
I know I know so this has happened to try to give it a try this this has happened to
you I assume more than once so being as you are a very smart woman why why did
(07:04):
this happen to you more than once do you believe oh I know why because I've had
like a bazillion years of therapy and 12 steps I would say like most of the women
I'm talking about I did not I did not have really solid early attachments in
terms of emotional I was not seen in her even though I was well cared for I think
(07:29):
there there is definitely a part of me that's always struggled with finding
mutual relationship and so I have a tendency because when you when you don't
trust attachments some people develop it an anxious approach meaning they're
constantly trying to connect how we do and how we do and how we do and some of
(07:51):
us develop more avoidant approach where we're always waiting for it to end and
so we're pretty quick to be able to say least inside of us okay well I guess you
know I don't matter here either doesn't mean we leave but we're able to just
just sort of kind of don't fully show up because why okay if I'm a person that
(08:15):
can pretty easily interpret you're not available it means I know how to be
unavailable also okay because I don't chase I'm the kind I'm the I'm the
avoidant kind right so I'm not gonna chase you I'm gonna go okay I guess that's
what we're doing now and then we just live parallel like this right so yeah
(08:37):
so that is not effective I don't recommend it but in terms of in terms of
coping yeah it works well but it means that I can spend and people with my
style of attachment can spend a lot of times in relationships actually pretty
lonely because because it's you're still not seen and heard you're still not
(08:59):
connected even though you're in a relationship right and it's not even a
high-conquering relationship it's just that you're not fully in you're not
integrating your your relationship emotionally or intimately right so yeah I
think I think the heart wants what it wants I put that in the book right the heart
(09:20):
wants what it wants and I think there's a part of people who did not get that
early attachment that always wants it so we hope lies eternal right so you
have chemistry with somebody or they're funny or they're smart or initially
they seem available and you're like okay well all right maybe right maybe
(09:42):
that's how I went through my you know phase maybe but you know without you know
I'm better now I'm much better now but certainly when I was younger I couldn't
see and I think a lot of women don't we we're so focused on the maybe we don't see
(10:04):
what they're actually saying about themselves right because people give you so
much information about who they are but you're not listening what I see is
women don't listen to ourselves right if somebody says to you gee you know you
have never been good with relationships and we think oh yeah I'd be different
(10:26):
no you won't be okay right or no one's I've never felt this way about anybody my
whole life really because I'm yet to have you know I see this and listen people
they absolutely you know they will tell you but a lot of us didn't we just didn't
(10:53):
get the memo to learn how to listen also our bodies are so smart your body will
tell you your body has reactions to people just like you're you know in fact
chemically we feel things before they you know our body feels it before our head
knows it okay and so part of this becoming better at this is paying attention to
(11:17):
your physical cues right like I was talking to a woman the other day and she
said her daughter every time her daughter goes out with the sky she when she
comes home as she throws up hello hello your body's so smart okay your body
saying hmm listen even though your head says oh but he's funny he's cute or what
(11:43):
yeah your body says get out and we override it we overwrite it right use our logic
you know oh I love his family oh but he's you know he's so stable and he has a nice
(12:03):
job whatever our bodies know right no no no I
think that it I was gonna ask you know why do we continue to fall for red flags
even when we know better and I think what you've you've summarized there is
really the key pieces you know how women have silenced themselves and listening
(12:30):
to their body listening to that inner voice or what have you yeah it's it can
send an important loud message sometimes sometimes it's a very
visceral response and exactly exactly the other thing that we do a lot of
times is we stop breathing so one of the things about anxiety is that we what
(12:53):
you'll notice when you're around certain people because we you know our
nervous systems all resonate with each other okay and there are certain people
you're around and you can find yourself if you pay attention literally holding
your breath like you don't breathe you're not breathing what's wrong right why
why don't you feel safe to breathe why it's almost like you're waiting for the
(13:17):
next thing what's the next shoot a job when is the next mood swing when is the
next you know and so again and I've had people sitting in my office I'll say you
know I'll have to remind them to breathe because I can see that they're breathing
and when you breathe really shallow you feel lightheaded you feel like you're
well because you're literally not getting enough air okay so what is that right
(13:42):
that you cannot fully be in your body around a person okay so paying attention
and then finding people in your world even if I let's say I can't leave but I
need other people I can breathe with okay I need to sometimes breathe so
even if you're a high maintenance dude and it kind of on the moody swing side right
(14:06):
or well you're criminal I put in the book how expensive criminals are expensive
we love them but they're very expensive I put in here you know how much how I
explain how bail works and and all this kind of you know how much it costs how
do you cost when you love a man who goes to jail a lot very important your name
(14:28):
is on the lease and not theirs because they could they're suddenly unemployed for
while okay so you know there's things they're expensive but you love them all
right you know you you do hold your breath when you were the criminal lot because
you're not quite sure they're exciting but a little unstable so I need to be
(14:49):
around other people who when I am with them my nervous system can rest I need
succumbed right because I can sort of regroup so I can be okay moving forward to
whatever's next is is the affection for the bad boy a real thing oh very yeah it
(15:13):
is and part of it really is there's a couple things you know one of the things
about people who there's two different things there's there's people who do
crime for other reasons meaning I'm addicted to meth I need to do crime to do
meth okay and then there's the I like to do crime and I do meth to do more crime
(15:37):
okay so it depends on who we're talking about okay most of my career has been
the kind that do crime in order to do meth okay so what you're talking about
with that kind is the kind of guy it's basically a good guy but he's addicted and
(15:58):
so what happens is your judgment goes offline okay and your impulse control is
really bad so you're bad criminal you're bad criminal you get a left-rested
alive you know I mean you're not a cartel member you you should be at it I've
actually said to guys like this this is not the career for you you keep getting
(16:18):
arrested clearly this is not for you all right even though in their head they
think they're like breaking bad no they're not okay so in my mind they're like
you know in our local our local thing is called Elmwood prison they're like Elmwood
do it's okay they're not San Juan okay they're Elmwood and then you know they have
(16:40):
this inflated sense of self so they're adorable okay so I think it's like naughty
puppies all right so but they're expensive all right so that's how I think of
them all right I'm like oh yeah and the truth is when they get clean and sober they
stop priming I mean they're always still a little iffy in some ways but they're
not you know they stock the priming and you're and the world gets a little more
(17:02):
stable and then you've got the career runs the career criminals are not going
to stop priming they're a little harder because they really don't connect
very well and so with them what you're doing with them is you're primarily going to
take care of them it's not going to go the other direction okay and so then you've
(17:27):
got a dynamic that's on the more codependent side where I'm taking care of you
right it's because there's no way if you're professional criminal that is your
job by the way and so you're not focused on how it affects other people I mean
you're you're not right and you and it's baked in that you're going to disappear
(17:49):
for long periods of time right and so it's a different kind of animal you know
I've had women that actually you know married men in doing long-term prison you
know 25 years alive whatever that's a hard life I do not recommend it now even
say in the book don't have a child with them because I had that too where they
(18:09):
have a baby with somebody is doing life and then you're a single parent so I
think our ability to make ourselves pretend we're a family we have a lot of
skills but the truth is that's a hard way to do it so if you're going to pick a
criminal I'd go with the Elmwood kind I would not recommend the San
(18:32):
Quentin kind I just in general because what the Elmwood kind they might stop
priming I mean they might get sober okay and you might be able to do this thing
and the other kind just aren't gonna they're they like crime it is their thing
that's what they do and for the most part now they can change if they want to
(18:52):
but it's hard it gets harder and harder for them with every stint right some of
them have been going to jail since baby jail which is you know like the ranches
and juvenile and and the truth is by the time I'm doing serious time I probably
have a lot of friends in there I mean it's it's my it's my community right so
(19:15):
second anything like even with addiction if you stop drinking and using you have
to leave your community sometimes and it's painful right if I'm a professional
criminal that's my community right so yeah that becomes your community so you
need to think about that so there's a lot to consider if you want to choose one of
(19:36):
them but sometimes again the heart wants what it was there you go I I definitely
hear you there another thing that kind of came to mind while you were speaking
is that it feels like when women either stay in a relationship because you
know bad taste in men and then continue to kind of find the bad boy or somebody who
(19:59):
isn't treating them right there's there's still a lingering pressure it's not
of course what it used to be but I still feel that when I talk to women there's
a self-worth that's only measured by how someone else can commit to you or an
effect like an effect on their self-worth if there's somebody else's inability
(20:20):
to commit you're right and it feels like you know we're waiting sometimes to be
chosen and to continue to get to be chosen by someone and that we pay place so
much emphasis on our self-worth because of it and you know I don't want it to
sound cliche but it feels like you know some of the transition in in modern
(20:43):
womanhood is is really what what does it mean to choose myself so that I'm not
looking for someone else to choose me to feel valuable you're exactly right I
think and particularly if you didn't get this the early attachment your
conclusion about why you were not seen and heard is there must be something
(21:04):
wrong with me because children don't think it's the parents they think it's
them so if I was smart enough tall enough thin enough good enough student
whatever they would hear me and see me and treat me like I matter right and so
yeah you're exactly you're right on Heather so the idea would be yeah I if
(21:27):
somebody if somebody chooses me yeah I'm always that's part of the hope the
hope of a of a relationship that somebody will finally choose me like they'll
actually I'll be good enough right they'll they'll stay because they want to stay
because I'm worth staying with and you're right there is a little girl part of us
(21:47):
that is still hoping and that but and again the setup though is I keep choosing the
least likely people that would choose me right right so so we walk into a room
you know of 99 available lovely men I know a lot of them 99 I promise you my
(22:10):
radar will find the biggest jackass in a room I know I absolutely will now what
recovery has taught me is I don't go there anymore like I tell my little girl
part oh no honey no we're not going over there okay we're not going right today
honey not today not today honey but I see him okay so the the the it's true my hard
(22:34):
wiring is I do look for it so we can I don't know for some of us we'll never not have
that instinct but we can work around it and we can turn you know literally turn
and say okay what are my other choices here because there are available people
it's are not anti men at all I love men but I think a lot of us don't recognize
(22:58):
availability we have a really hard time with it doesn't mean they're not there
they are it seems like it doesn't give you the same benefits even though they're
negative for some reason the person you choose gives you gives you something
like what is it that they give you that is so invaluable to you in that moment
(23:21):
even though you you may even know you're making a bad choice yes yeah it's because
in that moment you actually feel like you're seeing in her for whatever reason
you feel that they they suck for whatever reason you feel like you matter to
them in that moment and it's like and it's but it's and it's fleeting it doesn't
(23:47):
last but it's kind of like you know like for me if I use my example of the
unavailable person I go oh okay we yeah across the crowded room I think oh I must
have that one so I go over and talk to that one and that person most likely in that
moment gives me their full attention and I interpret that as availability and
(24:11):
it's not got nothing to do the availability but I'll read it like that like oh look
yay right and really it's just because they happen to be available for that
moment but that's not how they normally roll then what I'll do is I'll spend the
(24:31):
rest of the time trying to recapture that moment right I mean I hear this all
the time he's so different than you know we were first dating it's like yes I know
we all are right we're all in our early magical thinking you know Carl Jung
he said he didn't even want to do therapy with people who are in love to say
because they're delusional he's right and that's part of what's sweet about it
(24:56):
there's a delusional phase and it's lovely when you're both in it okay but if
only one of you is that's a problem okay and that's what happens it's so true and
I'm just wondering if like for any of our listeners who may be feeling lost or
stuck or just over it when it comes to dating do you have any advice to to
(25:21):
share with them I would say that the only way you will change the people you
day is to change yourself and the only way I meet anybody available is I have to
look at my own availability because the truth is if I keep choosing unavailable
people I am the common denominator and the only power I have is over my
(25:45):
availability okay and so you know what I've noticed even on my own recovery
over time is I definitely I think of it as like buying cars you always want to
upgrade right and so relationships are very similar and you the goal here is to
like I had a therapist here is ago told me I'd have the relationship I'd have the
(26:07):
level of intimacy I could tolerate and she was dead on I love their
business dead on so the the thing I can manage here is what what what am I so
afraid of because the truth is we're scared we're scared to get okay and and I need
to be able to be firm in myself I need to enjoy my own company I need to be
(26:32):
solid right I'm gonna be okay no matter what right and not in a defensive
posture you know not in a well-so-fuck you feel I mean it's more like I'm gonna be
okay so I can tolerate the risk because that's what it is love is a risk every
time because if you let people in they can hurt you they can also make your life
(26:56):
fabulous okay we always forget there's the good outcome right so the only way
you're gonna get the joyful outcome is you give it a shot but you need to do it
from a position of you're not deluding yourself you're in reality you see what
you see in my book I say that over and over again don't lie to yourself do not
(27:19):
lie to yourself even if it isn't pretty okay your best shot is to say this is
what's really available this is how much I'm willing to do right and you match
you match so it's a work in progress you also need friends who will not lie to
you I have on my on my website www.badtasteinmen.com there's a free
(27:45):
PDF for the friends of people with bad taste because it isn't just that it hurts
you everyone who loves you suffers too it's hard on us it's hard on people who
love people with bad taste because you know you can see it coming you can see
by the look on the face I put that in my book my friends know by the look on my
face like oh no I don't know again she's in a delusional phase shit okay so they
(28:14):
need support too because you know when you love somebody you don't want to end
the friendship or at you know their family member but it's like I still need to
be able to have some boundaries because I can only hear so many stories okay I
don't want to be hijacked all the way through your nuttiness right so there is
that it's available and it's for free okay that's good to know that there's an
(28:36):
extra resource on there that's fantastic we love to ask our guests you know if
there's one of our archetypes on this show that we explore that you have a
story with or you have you know it means something to you so of the virgin
the beauty and the bitch do any of those strike a chord and and why yeah no it's
(28:59):
absolutely I would say the bitch one of the things I talk about in allen on a lot
is that I you know I have my inner dragon my father was a military officer and I
can go there and I particularly when I feel like I'm being pushed I feel like I'm
being pushed against the wall or I feel like I'm losing options or whatever my
(29:21):
deal is right I do have that part of me it's like it gets milled that I say you
know my father has joined us there's a tone of voice I get and it's hard and
people be like whoa okay so I've learned to try to manage that inner dragon but
is there and I have to watch for her because now she can also be helpful right which
(29:46):
is where some of my students will say you know well miss cook don't play all right
they recognize I have a dragon okay but I also love them ridiculously and so
there's the balancing where I need her sometimes I need that part of me and at
the same time I can't live there that would be very bad I'd be the screaming to
(30:06):
get off my long lady okay I don't want that but I don't want to get rid of her
fully either right I need that part of me we're we are so happy to hear your
perspective Heather and I are working on a project to someone once said to us
(30:26):
that women need to learn to be better bitches and we're working on that as
a aspect of bringing that side of the bitch into the light as you just said
it's it's a part of you that you need that is necessary sometimes right so
in the future we'll probably reach out to you again to help us talk on that
(30:48):
topic alone oh feel free I because I you know I think you know there's an old book
dance dance of anger one of my very favorite old books and yeah what's the
purpose of the anger because sometimes anger gives you energy and it moves you
forward right and a lot but a lot of people are afraid of it they're afraid of
(31:09):
anger their own other peoples and that's another reason we wind up stuck sometimes
so yeah give me a shout absolutely give us the website again for your book and
where people are www.badtastedinmen.com if it's you you'll remember and again
(31:30):
there is the free PDF for your people who love you fabulous Mary this is
this is fantastic because I mean I do this was fun I don't know a woman or man
really that hasn't gone through this process of choosing badly and regretting it
and not understanding why they keep doing the same thing over and over and over again
(31:50):
so this is very very valuable thank you so much for taking the time to do this
with us you are very welcome it's been a joy and how you bring hilarity and
heartbreak and not to let us it break us it it's a joy to have you with us so
thank you thank you and you have been listening to the virgin the beauty and the
(32:12):
dragon bitch find us like a sheriff bring your friends come on back let's learn
some things together to become a partner in the bbb community we invite you to
find us at virginbeautybitch.com like us on Facebook Instagram and LinkedIn and
(32:34):
share us with people who are defiantly different like you until next time thanks
for listening
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