April 13, 2025 • 28 mins
"Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" is an original German fairy tale published by The Brothers Grimm in 1812. Apparently, social values and gender roles had not changed much in 1937 when Walt Disney turned Snow White into an animated film that's become a beloved classic. Fast forward to 2025, when even the idea of gender is a hot-button topic, and Snow White could be the poster child for moribund gender stereotypes. She's the traditional feminine, a delicate princess who happens to be the fairest of them all; she's kind and submissive, a domesticated girl who cooks and cleans up for men and dreams of living happily ever with a handsome, rich prince. But do fairy tales also teach girls that physical beauty and passivity make them desirable? It's a message Rachel Zegler, the young actress reviving the Snow White role, openly disdains. Unlike a demure Snow White, Rachel demonstratively expressed her feelings to the world while derailing the movie's box office success. So, tradition or woke, what side of the dilemma are you on?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Virgin, Beauty, Bitch, Podcast, Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share
(00:09):
unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different.
Your hosts, Christopher and Heather, let's talk, shall we?
Once upon a time, there was an unwritten code between women and men, feminine and masculine,
(00:30):
The Code of Romance.
It was a code of mutual respect and an understanding that in crisis, women's safety was more crucial
than a man's life.
Since men can't create life, they adopted a code to protect those who can. In the face
(00:50):
of danger or disaster, it was women and children first.
In times of war, it was men who sacrificed their lives to preserve family and home.
This became the code of chivalry, of men opening doors, men carrying the heavier load, not
(01:12):
because women could not, but because it was his hero moment.
However, for some men, this show of bravery and strength was translated as women's weakness
and an opportunity for payback or exploitation.
Over time, the code of romance has been corrupted to a point where even the good deeds of good
(01:37):
men become suspect and traditions of chivalry, like the ones told in one time, all time stories,
detail stories, those are being desecrated.
I say all this on the heels of the Disney remake of Snow White, starring Rachel Zegler,
who made who had this to say about the code of romance and chivalry.
(02:03):
"You know, the original cartoon came out in 1937 and very evidently so.
There is a big focus on her love story with a guy who literally stalks her.
Weird, weird.
She's not going to be saved by the prince and she's not going to be dreaming about true love."
So, Heather, you most likely everyone hearing this were raised on fairy tale stories like Cinderella,
(02:28):
Snow White and the Seven Dwarves.
How influential were the blatantly obvious gender roles they portray than are the heroes
saves the damsel and they live happily ever after tropes?
How influential do you believe that was in your life?
Yeah, growing up it was, I mean the Disney princesses were both, you know, just completely captivating
(02:54):
and sold a story that made you feel desirable and wanted and attractive.
Growing up for me, even though the end of the story was all about the love life or the love
story,
I found other elements of each one of the princess stories that I was much more interested and intrigued
(03:18):
by, you know, like Ariel, you know, living her life as the sultan's daughter and what
responsibility she might have under the water before being, you know, captivated by the
prince that Belle loved to read and loved to sing and loved to be part of like the inventions
of her father.
(03:39):
Pocahontas of course, defied the men in her life and did her own path chose her
own way.
So while I can appreciate that, you know, a lot of the feminist movement has called out
just how influential the love story was in which one of those women's lives.
(03:59):
I don't think that that's the only thing that was sold, that there was a lot actually in
my opinion of agency and her own rebellion that was interwoven into each one of those stories.
But let's go to Snow White because that was a little different.
And you know, even Sleeping Beauty that, you know, a lover's kiss was not only important,
(04:26):
but brought them back to life.
That's a pretty clear view that the love you have in your life should be, you know, the
most meaningful contribution to, to, to, you know, you staying alive if we want to call
it back.
But you know, as per usual on the Virgin, the Beauty and the Bitch who are always searching
(04:47):
for the deeper meaning behind these stories that we've been told.
And what I find interesting with the Rachel Zegler and her thoughts that you just shared
is just how strong the backlash was for her daring to be a woman who talks back or talks
(05:08):
out about that archaic narrative.
So not a surprise to me that there's like this meltdown that's happened about a young
woman expressing her agency in this tail old story.
So I don't know that it's, that she spoke out.
It's how she spoke out.
It was the disrespect for something that has been treasured for so long, for so many centuries
(05:36):
in our lives as a society, as the things we value.
We value love, we value romance, we value this chivalry thing back and forth.
It's not that she spoke out.
It's the disrespect she showed for things that people value.
I think that's where she got herself caught up.
(05:59):
Yeah, I can understand that people gravitate to these ideals of almost preserving these stories
as novelties, as precious, as pieces of, as you've said, traditional feminine values or
(06:20):
feminine characteristics.
But I think that the way that she's spoken out to it is very realistic to how many younger
women in the Gen Z, in the Zoomer generation, or millennials that really denounce what was
portrayed in that movie.
I mean, really to me, it says like a lot of what's in Snow White, especially with it being,
(06:44):
you know, 1937, very, very, you know, in a completely different era, era, that, you
know, what were her main traits of fairest of them all?
Her beauty, her innocence, her obedience, she's banished, poisoned, and only brought back
to life because some dude thinks she's pretty enough while she's unconscious.
(07:07):
And then, you know, similar for Cinderella, she suffers in silence, sings while scrubbing
floors, her salvation comes not from fighting back, but from being chosen by a dude.
And the Prince doesn't even remember what she looks like.
She's only remembered because of, you know, her fitting into a certain shoe.
(07:28):
So I mean, these stories, although there's other messages other than these main ones that
seem to be, you know, what Rachel's bringing to the forefront, is still that it reinforces
a passive femininity where the ideal woman is beautiful, virtuous, and quiet.
(07:50):
She waits, she endures eventually to be rewarded by male attention, which is framed as the ultimate
goal.
So, to me, that's the part that gives, you know, me more credit to what Rachel is saying,
that these aren't just stories, they're templates, and some of it teaches girls, you know, that
(08:12):
you're value lies in how you look, how little trouble you cause or cause, or how desirable
you are to men.
And fair enough for that, it's interesting though, that the banishing, the poisoning, the
disrespect all came from other women.
It didn't come from men.
(08:33):
The men were there at the end to say, "Let me take you away from this."
But all of that suffering was caused by other women.
Isn't that the true?
So the men get inevitably the chastised for the role they play while what has been done
(08:54):
to these young women, by other women, is completely overlooked.
How fair is that?
You raise an excellent point, Christopher, and I mean, all that to also say, look at the
women that cause this torment to other women and how they're portrayed, right?
The witch with the crooked nose or someone quote unquote, "conventionally beautiful" or
(09:18):
"fair, skinned" or "what have you."
And how much does that also paint a picture of what women who, you know, are again drawn
in the way that the evil folks are, that they should be, you know, not only disregarded,
(09:39):
but, you know, to be the carriers of evil.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, is that unrealistic?
Is that something that is fantasy?
Or is that the way it sometimes works in life?
Is that women or other women's worst enemy?
Yeah, I think that when you look throughout history of who are some of the most stringent
(10:05):
upholders of traditional values or traditional characteristics in a woman, I mean, ultimately
that comes from a woman's mother, maybe grandmother, her aunties, all trying to mold her into what
will be a successful woman or a woman of esteemed character.
(10:29):
And you know, we see such, we see a wide range of how that's carried out in different cultures.
I mean, Christopher, you and I have had conversations that that stems anywhere from, you know, bodily
mutilation, all the way to honor killings, to just how you look, behave, dress, how attractive
(10:54):
you are to catch a mate.
Really, like, how much of that is at the hands of women in your life that believe that they're
doing you a favor to have you accepted within society.
But, you know, at the loss of a woman's own agency and her own desires for herself.
(11:16):
Well, it's like I said at the beginning, it started off as this mutual understanding of
this is a role that I can play in your life to enhance your life. As far as the man is
concerned.
I can be the brave one.
I can be the one who stands at the door with the shotgun.
But now you owe me, so spend your time serving me. So we've twisted this beautiful relationship
(11:42):
we started off with called romance and made it into something now that tit for tat; I've
done for you,
now you do for me, and you're below me.
Unfortunately, that's what it's become.
But should we throw away all of that tradition?
Should we just burn it like school books that say things that we don't think belong in the
(12:05):
world anymore?
Yeah, I mean, to me, I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water if we want to
say that.
And I think something that we work hard at on our show is to be able to pick and choose
the characteristics that really express who you are.
And I know, like, that comes back to the three names that we have in our show that should
(12:27):
you choose that you have the characteristics of the Virgin of curious, unclaimed, that the
novelty of life or a decision still lay in front of you each day or the Beauty, you know,
owning our own radiance on our own terms.
And then the Bitch, you know, being defiant, loud, self-assured, that there's pieces within
(12:52):
these fairy tale stories that, again, to me, even if it isn't the main overarching narrative
and Snow White a little maybe outside of this thought process.
But a lot of the other fairy tale princesses, they did have their own thing going on and
had an identity onto themselves.
So, you know, I don't want to throw out that, like, what I cherish from my childhood, which
(13:19):
was those pieces of those stories.
And the other element being romance and love, like, what more beautiful elements of life
are there than to find romance and love.
So I don't think it's worth throwing out the baby with the backwater.
Well, still questioning just how important that relationship, intimate relationship, has
(13:45):
been on women historically that don't have the same powerful pinnings as they once did.
So I think that's Virgin Beauty Bitch and you and I.
I think that the pure values of tradition we agree on.
The roles can be, you know, juxtaposed in different ways, for sure.
(14:11):
However, I think we still want some of those quality values.
The romance, we still want that.
We still want to play those roles to each other and cherish each other and be cherished
for the roles we play.
And I think what we try to do with the show or what we do with the show is take out the quality
(14:34):
values from the words and from the role play.
There are positive things within it that unfortunately gets thrown out with the bathwater, as we speak.
There are men who take advantage of that role.
That's the chivalry role.
(14:55):
There are men who do use that for their own purposes, not for the other person's.
But again, how do we keep those values, the things that we cherish and
not destroy this relationship between men and women?
Yeah, I think that for me how I kind of pull that question apart is to think about, you know,
(15:25):
that especially within Cinderella and in Snow White, a lot of what we saw is kind of
almost an ingredients or recipe for how or instruction manuals on how to be a good girl.
You know, don't speak unless spoken to, don't compete with other women, especially not
older ones that are going to poison you.
(15:49):
Definitely don't make the first move.
Have perfect hair, perfect skin, a high tolerance for abuse and above all, don't make yourself
the hero of your own story.
And I think that where we can still find the appeal of romance is when we think about not
just being women who are acted upon, that we take the initiative around what it means
(16:17):
to be act the active agent in our lives.
And of course, that is something that has come over time with women having more access
to their own livelihoods, own sense of self-emotional, intelligent, separate from the relationships
that we have.
But I think that there's something to be said that, you know, when we kind of take the gleam
(16:40):
or the shine off of these stories, like we do see that a lot of the princesses are framed
within noble suffering.
And the pain you endure, the more that you're able to endure the pain, the more likely
you are to be saved.
So you know, I, and maybe that's a little bit extreme, but even to say patience, humility,
(17:03):
as elements of what makes a woman worth saving is problematic.
But not to say that they're powerless.
It's just saying, it's just showing that they're rewarded for their powerlessness.
So the way that I think about how to still maintain the baby in the bathwater without throwing
(17:27):
it out is that, you know, these newer depictions of these Disney characters or how Disney,
I think, is trying to shift some of these characters in the world where women have so much more
self-agency is, yeah, really showcasing her as her own, her own active agent and that her
(17:52):
story and her ambition is the forefront of, of, of her life story.
But that, like, the love that she feels for another person and hopefully she finds that
in return is also a beautiful piece of that story.
But that's what it is.
It's a piece of her story.
Like it is a piece of her princess story rather than his whole story.
(18:15):
Yeah, I think when you equate courtship with stalking, you might have gone a little too far,
especially with the beloved tale that people cherish.
That might be taking it a little beyond the pale.
And I think that was the start, the beginning of the end for her unraveling that entire
(18:39):
project, unfortunately, the way it goes.
So in that light, should we be taking these treasured stories and trying to inject our modern
sensibilities and understanding, you know, moving forward as women and men, should we be
taking these stories, these treasured pieces, it's like taking them on Alisa and putting
(19:05):
a big happy face on her.
She is what she is in context of when it was painted and how it's been adored all this
time.
Or do we write, do we do, do we just create our new monolisa from scratch with the sensibilities
(19:28):
and the things we value today?
That to me is the point of where do we go and what is right and what is maybe a little
too much to expect the public to accept?
I think it's, yeah, it's an excellent question.
And, you know, I know that the Disney's new rendition of the Little Mermaid was met with
(19:50):
a lot of backlash because they made a black woman our Aerial.
And I am so elated that Disney went forward with that because it's a game changer for
black little girls to see themselves reflected in these cherished stories when for so many
(20:14):
of these classics, they weren't represented.
So I know it's a bit of a different question around do we take these treasured beloved
stories and meet the times that we're in today?
But I think it is an example of taking something that was treasured in a certain way and pushing
(20:35):
the boundaries to reimagine what it means in today's society.
So to me, like those treasured, if we want to say that, princess stories that were made
in their original versions, those can forever exist, right?
(20:55):
They'll forever be there.
But I'm all for seeing Disney make new renditions that meet the times and the people who
want to watch the cherished older versions have added and the people who are looking for
their daughters or their sons or their children of any gender to see a different type of snow
(21:18):
white or a different type of aerial.
I'm here for it.
I love it.
I love to see not only a new version but a version that pushes us to reconcile why so
many people were angry with the black Aerial.
We have to meet that conversation in a way that had they not decided to do that.
(21:45):
People wouldn't have to wrestle with it.
I agree with that.
Maybe the approach is the problem.
If you want to raise public consciousness and broadens people's minds on the way they
look and think about things.
Maybe it needs to not just be put on screen and expect people to accept it.
(22:09):
But maybe there needs to be like an education campaign around why we're doing this.
What our thoughts are and the questions we want to raise by doing it this way.
Maybe there needs to be some sort of introduction into the change.
Not just make the change and expect people to just be on board with it.
(22:30):
People treasure the things they treasure and value and the things that they grew up with.
The characters that they know and have become enamored with.
To just take them and change them for your own reasons because you're Disney.
Apparently that's not working out so well.
(22:53):
Yes.
Yeah.
Isn't that true?
That would be very cool to see Disney try to take that angle so that it isn't such a
flop when they try to make these drastic changes like to give it more of a PR think through
of almost preparing people for what they're about to see and why Disney is going in that
(23:16):
direction.
I think that would be very cool to see to almost open the conversation before these new
looks at what princesses can be become such a flop.
Disney, you're welcome.
Right?
We'll take the TM on that, the trade market.
(23:39):
Oh my goodness.
It has been an interesting journey watching Rachel and I do feel for her.
She's a young woman obviously very, very forward thinking in how women should be seen
and portrayed in the world around us.
And unfortunately the gravity and weight of the machine that she is the pilot seat of, it
(24:08):
was too much, too fast, too soon for the time.
And it's like I said, it's like a been a train wreck in slow motion for two years.
And obviously the results came in.
The vote has been cast and it hasn't been all that positive.
(24:32):
However, it makes for a good conversation in understanding where and how we see this
relationship between women and men masculine and feminine and how hopefully we can take
the values that are strengthening to both of us and work on those moving forward.
(24:57):
Well said.
And I just want to say to our listeners who may have a complicated history or feeling
with these Disney princess movies that for anyone that what has stuck with you from these
movies or maybe are under the surface that being small and sweet is the way to win love
(25:19):
just want to say that your worth was never around your silence or also your waistline because
they portrayed them in a very certain type of physical aesthetic as well.
But that to our listeners that you are the heroine of your own story and it wasn't really
(25:39):
the magic or the fairy dust, it was her voice and your voice in your own life.
So I mean I'd love to hear from our listeners that if there's a certain fairy tale that
shaped your early view of womanhood or how you're rewriting that today if it still compels
you in certain ways, we'd love to hear that.
(26:00):
So please hit us up and let us know if that's something you're reconciling with.
Oh if it pisses you off, let us know.
I love that too.
Like Rachel, tell us.
Tell us the good.
Absolutely, absolutely.
This is a direction we've been going in for the last little while is talking about betrayal,
(26:26):
talking about identity and these elements.
So this definitely falls into that category as we move forward in exploration of the B.I.TC.H
and its meaning overall that will likely surprise you.
And we do roll that out to you coming soon.
(26:46):
Yes, I'm super excited about that and so enjoy this conversation to make Christopher.
As always, as always.
And you have been listening to The Virgin, The Beauty and The Bitch.
Find us like us, share us.
We invite you back soon.
(27:07):
Become a partner in the VBB community we invite you to find us at virginbeautybitch.com.
Like us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn and share us with people who are defiantly different
like you.
Until next time, thanks for listening.
(27:34):
Fabulous.
Awesome.
That was nice.
I feel like I got to release some stuff that's inside of me that I didn't know.
That's great.
Because I didn't know what direction he would go, particularly.
So that was great.
That was perfect.
Yeah, I love that.
And thanks for bringing up how often guys get such a bad rap in these stories.
(27:58):
But really, it is the hands of these other women.
I like to shoes.
What the fuk?
(laughter)
You know, the evil witch, the evil godmother,
evil stepmother, her,
it's always like, you know, an evil older woman in her life
that just wants her to mind.
(28:19):
(laughter)
Yes.
All right, I need to know where I need to refocus my,
you know, my anger.
(laughter)
- Love it, love it, love it.
Virgin, Beauty, Bitch, Podcast, Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share
(00:09):
unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different.
Your hosts, Christopher and Heather, let's talk, shall we?
Once upon a time, there was an unwritten code between women and men, feminine and masculine,
(00:30):
The Code of Romance.
It was a code of mutual respect and an understanding that in crisis, women's safety was more crucial
than a man's life.
Since men can't create life, they adopted a code to protect those who can. In the face
(00:50):
of danger or disaster, it was women and children first.
In times of war, it was men who sacrificed their lives to preserve family and home.
This became the code of chivalry, of men opening doors, men carrying the heavier load, not
(01:12):
because women could not, but because it was his hero moment.
However, for some men, this show of bravery and strength was translated as women's weakness
and an opportunity for payback or exploitation.
Over time, the code of romance has been corrupted to a point where even the good deeds of good
(01:37):
men become suspect and traditions of chivalry, like the ones told in one time, all time stories,
detail stories, those are being desecrated.
I say all this on the heels of the Disney remake of Snow White, starring Rachel Zegler,
who made who had this to say about the code of romance and chivalry.
(02:03):
"You know, the original cartoon came out in 1937 and very evidently so.
There is a big focus on her love story with a guy who literally stalks her.
Weird, weird.
She's not going to be saved by the prince and she's not going to be dreaming about true love."
So, Heather, you most likely everyone hearing this were raised on fairy tale stories like Cinderella,
(02:28):
Snow White and the Seven Dwarves.
How influential were the blatantly obvious gender roles they portray than are the heroes
saves the damsel and they live happily ever after tropes?
How influential do you believe that was in your life?
Yeah, growing up it was, I mean the Disney princesses were both, you know, just completely captivating
(02:54):
and sold a story that made you feel desirable and wanted and attractive.
Growing up for me, even though the end of the story was all about the love life or the love
story,
I found other elements of each one of the princess stories that I was much more interested and intrigued
(03:18):
by, you know, like Ariel, you know, living her life as the sultan's daughter and what
responsibility she might have under the water before being, you know, captivated by the
prince that Belle loved to read and loved to sing and loved to be part of like the inventions
of her father.
(03:39):
Pocahontas of course, defied the men in her life and did her own path chose her
own way.
So while I can appreciate that, you know, a lot of the feminist movement has called out
just how influential the love story was in which one of those women's lives.
(03:59):
I don't think that that's the only thing that was sold, that there was a lot actually in
my opinion of agency and her own rebellion that was interwoven into each one of those stories.
But let's go to Snow White because that was a little different.
And you know, even Sleeping Beauty that, you know, a lover's kiss was not only important,
(04:26):
but brought them back to life.
That's a pretty clear view that the love you have in your life should be, you know, the
most meaningful contribution to, to, to, you know, you staying alive if we want to call
it back.
But you know, as per usual on the Virgin, the Beauty and the Bitch who are always searching
(04:47):
for the deeper meaning behind these stories that we've been told.
And what I find interesting with the Rachel Zegler and her thoughts that you just shared
is just how strong the backlash was for her daring to be a woman who talks back or talks
(05:08):
out about that archaic narrative.
So not a surprise to me that there's like this meltdown that's happened about a young
woman expressing her agency in this tail old story.
So I don't know that it's, that she spoke out.
It's how she spoke out.
It was the disrespect for something that has been treasured for so long, for so many centuries
(05:36):
in our lives as a society, as the things we value.
We value love, we value romance, we value this chivalry thing back and forth.
It's not that she spoke out.
It's the disrespect she showed for things that people value.
I think that's where she got herself caught up.
(05:59):
Yeah, I can understand that people gravitate to these ideals of almost preserving these stories
as novelties, as precious, as pieces of, as you've said, traditional feminine values or
(06:20):
feminine characteristics.
But I think that the way that she's spoken out to it is very realistic to how many younger
women in the Gen Z, in the Zoomer generation, or millennials that really denounce what was
portrayed in that movie.
I mean, really to me, it says like a lot of what's in Snow White, especially with it being,
(06:44):
you know, 1937, very, very, you know, in a completely different era, era, that, you
know, what were her main traits of fairest of them all?
Her beauty, her innocence, her obedience, she's banished, poisoned, and only brought back
to life because some dude thinks she's pretty enough while she's unconscious.
(07:07):
And then, you know, similar for Cinderella, she suffers in silence, sings while scrubbing
floors, her salvation comes not from fighting back, but from being chosen by a dude.
And the Prince doesn't even remember what she looks like.
She's only remembered because of, you know, her fitting into a certain shoe.
(07:28):
So I mean, these stories, although there's other messages other than these main ones that
seem to be, you know, what Rachel's bringing to the forefront, is still that it reinforces
a passive femininity where the ideal woman is beautiful, virtuous, and quiet.
(07:50):
She waits, she endures eventually to be rewarded by male attention, which is framed as the ultimate
goal.
So, to me, that's the part that gives, you know, me more credit to what Rachel is saying,
that these aren't just stories, they're templates, and some of it teaches girls, you know, that
(08:12):
you're value lies in how you look, how little trouble you cause or cause, or how desirable
you are to men.
And fair enough for that, it's interesting though, that the banishing, the poisoning, the
disrespect all came from other women.
It didn't come from men.
(08:33):
The men were there at the end to say, "Let me take you away from this."
But all of that suffering was caused by other women.
Isn't that the true?
So the men get inevitably the chastised for the role they play while what has been done
(08:54):
to these young women, by other women, is completely overlooked.
How fair is that?
You raise an excellent point, Christopher, and I mean, all that to also say, look at the
women that cause this torment to other women and how they're portrayed, right?
The witch with the crooked nose or someone quote unquote, "conventionally beautiful" or
(09:18):
"fair, skinned" or "what have you."
And how much does that also paint a picture of what women who, you know, are again drawn
in the way that the evil folks are, that they should be, you know, not only disregarded,
(09:39):
but, you know, to be the carriers of evil.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, is that unrealistic?
Is that something that is fantasy?
Or is that the way it sometimes works in life?
Is that women or other women's worst enemy?
Yeah, I think that when you look throughout history of who are some of the most stringent
(10:05):
upholders of traditional values or traditional characteristics in a woman, I mean, ultimately
that comes from a woman's mother, maybe grandmother, her aunties, all trying to mold her into what
will be a successful woman or a woman of esteemed character.
(10:29):
And you know, we see such, we see a wide range of how that's carried out in different cultures.
I mean, Christopher, you and I have had conversations that that stems anywhere from, you know, bodily
mutilation, all the way to honor killings, to just how you look, behave, dress, how attractive
(10:54):
you are to catch a mate.
Really, like, how much of that is at the hands of women in your life that believe that they're
doing you a favor to have you accepted within society.
But, you know, at the loss of a woman's own agency and her own desires for herself.
(11:16):
Well, it's like I said at the beginning, it started off as this mutual understanding of
this is a role that I can play in your life to enhance your life. As far as the man is
concerned.
I can be the brave one.
I can be the one who stands at the door with the shotgun.
But now you owe me, so spend your time serving me. So we've twisted this beautiful relationship
(11:42):
we started off with called romance and made it into something now that tit for tat; I've
done for you,
now you do for me, and you're below me.
Unfortunately, that's what it's become.
But should we throw away all of that tradition?
Should we just burn it like school books that say things that we don't think belong in the
(12:05):
world anymore?
Yeah, I mean, to me, I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water if we want to
say that.
And I think something that we work hard at on our show is to be able to pick and choose
the characteristics that really express who you are.
And I know, like, that comes back to the three names that we have in our show that should
(12:27):
you choose that you have the characteristics of the Virgin of curious, unclaimed, that the
novelty of life or a decision still lay in front of you each day or the Beauty, you know,
owning our own radiance on our own terms.
And then the Bitch, you know, being defiant, loud, self-assured, that there's pieces within
(12:52):
these fairy tale stories that, again, to me, even if it isn't the main overarching narrative
and Snow White a little maybe outside of this thought process.
But a lot of the other fairy tale princesses, they did have their own thing going on and
had an identity onto themselves.
So, you know, I don't want to throw out that, like, what I cherish from my childhood, which
(13:19):
was those pieces of those stories.
And the other element being romance and love, like, what more beautiful elements of life
are there than to find romance and love.
So I don't think it's worth throwing out the baby with the backwater.
Well, still questioning just how important that relationship, intimate relationship, has
(13:45):
been on women historically that don't have the same powerful pinnings as they once did.
So I think that's Virgin Beauty Bitch and you and I.
I think that the pure values of tradition we agree on.
The roles can be, you know, juxtaposed in different ways, for sure.
(14:11):
However, I think we still want some of those quality values.
The romance, we still want that.
We still want to play those roles to each other and cherish each other and be cherished
for the roles we play.
And I think what we try to do with the show or what we do with the show is take out the quality
(14:34):
values from the words and from the role play.
There are positive things within it that unfortunately gets thrown out with the bathwater, as we speak.
There are men who take advantage of that role.
That's the chivalry role.
(14:55):
There are men who do use that for their own purposes, not for the other person's.
But again, how do we keep those values, the things that we cherish and
not destroy this relationship between men and women?
Yeah, I think that for me how I kind of pull that question apart is to think about, you know,
(15:25):
that especially within Cinderella and in Snow White, a lot of what we saw is kind of
almost an ingredients or recipe for how or instruction manuals on how to be a good girl.
You know, don't speak unless spoken to, don't compete with other women, especially not
older ones that are going to poison you.
(15:49):
Definitely don't make the first move.
Have perfect hair, perfect skin, a high tolerance for abuse and above all, don't make yourself
the hero of your own story.
And I think that where we can still find the appeal of romance is when we think about not
just being women who are acted upon, that we take the initiative around what it means
(16:17):
to be act the active agent in our lives.
And of course, that is something that has come over time with women having more access
to their own livelihoods, own sense of self-emotional, intelligent, separate from the relationships
that we have.
But I think that there's something to be said that, you know, when we kind of take the gleam
(16:40):
or the shine off of these stories, like we do see that a lot of the princesses are framed
within noble suffering.
And the pain you endure, the more that you're able to endure the pain, the more likely
you are to be saved.
So you know, I, and maybe that's a little bit extreme, but even to say patience, humility,
(17:03):
as elements of what makes a woman worth saving is problematic.
But not to say that they're powerless.
It's just saying, it's just showing that they're rewarded for their powerlessness.
So the way that I think about how to still maintain the baby in the bathwater without throwing
(17:27):
it out is that, you know, these newer depictions of these Disney characters or how Disney,
I think, is trying to shift some of these characters in the world where women have so much more
self-agency is, yeah, really showcasing her as her own, her own active agent and that her
(17:52):
story and her ambition is the forefront of, of, of her life story.
But that, like, the love that she feels for another person and hopefully she finds that
in return is also a beautiful piece of that story.
But that's what it is.
It's a piece of her story.
Like it is a piece of her princess story rather than his whole story.
(18:15):
Yeah, I think when you equate courtship with stalking, you might have gone a little too far,
especially with the beloved tale that people cherish.
That might be taking it a little beyond the pale.
And I think that was the start, the beginning of the end for her unraveling that entire
(18:39):
project, unfortunately, the way it goes.
So in that light, should we be taking these treasured stories and trying to inject our modern
sensibilities and understanding, you know, moving forward as women and men, should we be
taking these stories, these treasured pieces, it's like taking them on Alisa and putting
(19:05):
a big happy face on her.
She is what she is in context of when it was painted and how it's been adored all this
time.
Or do we write, do we do, do we just create our new monolisa from scratch with the sensibilities
(19:28):
and the things we value today?
That to me is the point of where do we go and what is right and what is maybe a little
too much to expect the public to accept?
I think it's, yeah, it's an excellent question.
And, you know, I know that the Disney's new rendition of the Little Mermaid was met with
(19:50):
a lot of backlash because they made a black woman our Aerial.
And I am so elated that Disney went forward with that because it's a game changer for
black little girls to see themselves reflected in these cherished stories when for so many
(20:14):
of these classics, they weren't represented.
So I know it's a bit of a different question around do we take these treasured beloved
stories and meet the times that we're in today?
But I think it is an example of taking something that was treasured in a certain way and pushing
(20:35):
the boundaries to reimagine what it means in today's society.
So to me, like those treasured, if we want to say that, princess stories that were made
in their original versions, those can forever exist, right?
(20:55):
They'll forever be there.
But I'm all for seeing Disney make new renditions that meet the times and the people who
want to watch the cherished older versions have added and the people who are looking for
their daughters or their sons or their children of any gender to see a different type of snow
(21:18):
white or a different type of aerial.
I'm here for it.
I love it.
I love to see not only a new version but a version that pushes us to reconcile why so
many people were angry with the black Aerial.
We have to meet that conversation in a way that had they not decided to do that.
(21:45):
People wouldn't have to wrestle with it.
I agree with that.
Maybe the approach is the problem.
If you want to raise public consciousness and broadens people's minds on the way they
look and think about things.
Maybe it needs to not just be put on screen and expect people to accept it.
(22:09):
But maybe there needs to be like an education campaign around why we're doing this.
What our thoughts are and the questions we want to raise by doing it this way.
Maybe there needs to be some sort of introduction into the change.
Not just make the change and expect people to just be on board with it.
(22:30):
People treasure the things they treasure and value and the things that they grew up with.
The characters that they know and have become enamored with.
To just take them and change them for your own reasons because you're Disney.
Apparently that's not working out so well.
(22:53):
Yes.
Yeah.
Isn't that true?
That would be very cool to see Disney try to take that angle so that it isn't such a
flop when they try to make these drastic changes like to give it more of a PR think through
of almost preparing people for what they're about to see and why Disney is going in that
(23:16):
direction.
I think that would be very cool to see to almost open the conversation before these new
looks at what princesses can be become such a flop.
Disney, you're welcome.
Right?
We'll take the TM on that, the trade market.
(23:39):
Oh my goodness.
It has been an interesting journey watching Rachel and I do feel for her.
She's a young woman obviously very, very forward thinking in how women should be seen
and portrayed in the world around us.
And unfortunately the gravity and weight of the machine that she is the pilot seat of, it
(24:08):
was too much, too fast, too soon for the time.
And it's like I said, it's like a been a train wreck in slow motion for two years.
And obviously the results came in.
The vote has been cast and it hasn't been all that positive.
(24:32):
However, it makes for a good conversation in understanding where and how we see this
relationship between women and men masculine and feminine and how hopefully we can take
the values that are strengthening to both of us and work on those moving forward.
(24:57):
Well said.
And I just want to say to our listeners who may have a complicated history or feeling
with these Disney princess movies that for anyone that what has stuck with you from these
movies or maybe are under the surface that being small and sweet is the way to win love
(25:19):
just want to say that your worth was never around your silence or also your waistline because
they portrayed them in a very certain type of physical aesthetic as well.
But that to our listeners that you are the heroine of your own story and it wasn't really
(25:39):
the magic or the fairy dust, it was her voice and your voice in your own life.
So I mean I'd love to hear from our listeners that if there's a certain fairy tale that
shaped your early view of womanhood or how you're rewriting that today if it still compels
you in certain ways, we'd love to hear that.
(26:00):
So please hit us up and let us know if that's something you're reconciling with.
Oh if it pisses you off, let us know.
I love that too.
Like Rachel, tell us.
Tell us the good.
Absolutely, absolutely.
This is a direction we've been going in for the last little while is talking about betrayal,
(26:26):
talking about identity and these elements.
So this definitely falls into that category as we move forward in exploration of the B.I.TC.H
and its meaning overall that will likely surprise you.
And we do roll that out to you coming soon.
(26:46):
Yes, I'm super excited about that and so enjoy this conversation to make Christopher.
As always, as always.
And you have been listening to The Virgin, The Beauty and The Bitch.
Find us like us, share us.
We invite you back soon.
(27:07):
Become a partner in the VBB community we invite you to find us at virginbeautybitch.com.
Like us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn and share us with people who are defiantly different
like you.
Until next time, thanks for listening.
(27:34):
Fabulous.
Awesome.
That was nice.
I feel like I got to release some stuff that's inside of me that I didn't know.
That's great.
Because I didn't know what direction he would go, particularly.
So that was great.
That was perfect.
Yeah, I love that.
And thanks for bringing up how often guys get such a bad rap in these stories.
(27:58):
But really, it is the hands of these other women.
I like to shoes.
What the fuk?
(laughter)
You know, the evil witch, the evil godmother,
evil stepmother, her,
it's always like, you know, an evil older woman in her life
that just wants her to mind.
(28:19):
(laughter)
Yes.
All right, I need to know where I need to refocus my,
you know, my anger.
(laughter)
- Love it, love it, love it.
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