April 28, 2025 • 39 mins
Dr. Alessandra Wall - Challenging Fem Boss = Bitch Pretext!! Dr. Alessandra Wall is an executive coach, speaker, author, psychologist, and business founder with over 20 years of experience specializing in guiding senior executive women in high-stakes, male-dominated industries to lead authentically and powerfully without sacrificing career fulfillment or their quality of life. Dr. Wall combines science, strategy, and purpose to challenge the boss = bitch standards that often intimidate or cage strong, ambitious women leaders who’s desire is to make a lasting impact and thrive in their professional and personal lives without guilt, or shame.
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Episode Transcript
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Virgin, Beauty, Bitch, Podcast (00:00):
Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique
(00:10):
life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.
Let's talk, shall we?
In a relentless search to find amazing guests for a podcast, I came across this profile.
Psychologists turned executive coach advocating for women leaders and challenging the boss equals
(00:34):
bitch standards that cage strong, ambitious women. After reading that, I immediately fired
off an invitation and we're happy today to welcome Dr. Alessandra Wall to Virgin Beauty
Bitch. Welcome!
Hey, how are you?
We're great.
Oh my goodness. Did I write that? That's really good.
(01:00):
We were like, "Moth to a flame."
You specialize in coaching and guiding senior executive women working as leaders in high
stakes male dominated industries that often get them caught up in being misunderstood
and often being called bitch. What drew you to that particular profession?
(01:25):
There are three reasons. One is the most superficial reason I think, which is, it's going to sound
silly, but I was working with these women at a time where I didn't really understand
where it was like to be them or to be in their world. I don't even think I had a true intellectual
understanding of it and when I finally got it, I was shocked and a little ashamed of how
(01:51):
little I understood what it takes to operate at a high level. How hard it is just to get into
the right rooms, but even when you're in the rooms to have a voice in those rooms and
when you have a voice to not somehow be taken down for having a voice. That's the simplest
of it. In hindsight, I think there's a lot of similarities between the women I work
(02:17):
with and myself as a little girl. I've always kind of pushed myself into spaces where maybe
I didn't belong or wanted to belong. Maybe I did belong to even no I did. It's always
this double bind of being in there. So wanting to probably fix some of that. When you learn
(02:41):
when you're a psychologist, you learn every therapist is just trying to fix some childhood
wound of some kind. So even in coaching, I think this pays off. And then the third one,
the piaars about being a bitch, I talk about this often. I have a lot of people who only
see the side of me that looks really strong, which I love. I've worked hard to not to pretend
(03:03):
to be confident, but to own who I am, which looks really confident, even though half the
time I'm owning lack of confidence. But I get this compliment all the time, mostly by men,
but not only men, which is, I'm so impressed, you're so inspiring, and I'm a little scared.
(03:23):
I've heard that with many exploitives put like you scare the shit out of me and other things
like that. And it said as a compliment. To me, that's tough, right? It's like you do all
the things you need to do to have a voice and to make a difference. But even when people
are complimenting you, somehow there's this idea that you have to make yourself smaller
(03:47):
or different or control yourself to make people comfortable.
But you didn't grow up with that perspective at all. That's interesting to me. That is
because you, like you said, put yourself into positions where maybe a lot of girls would
not put themselves. So you got conditioned out of having this judgment put on you.
(04:14):
Actually, I think it's because my house was in many ways very stereotypically heteronormative
for lack of a better word. My dad was born in 1928 in Kansas and my mom was born in 1939 in
Paris, France. And my mom was a secretary back when back when there were secretaries, right?
It was a very Mad Men love affair. My dad was a breadwinner for a long time. Even when
(04:36):
that flipped, there was a period in our life where my father wasn't able to make money.
And my mom was a breadwinner as with her secretary opposition. The, the, my mom wasn't an ambitious
person. So I didn't get to see what happened when you played outside of the, the, the lines
that people put around you. And then I became a psychologist and as a psychologist, the truth
(05:00):
is, like, especially because I owned my own business, I was the boss. I was the person with
the most authority in the room. Nobody was walking in that room questioning my authority.
And if they did, we probably weren't going to work together. So in hindsight, I could look
at the ceilings in hindsight. I'm so thankful for the Me-Too movement because there's so many
(05:21):
things I took for granted where I was like, this sucks, but it's just part of the experience
of being a woman that suddenly shifted into, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, this sucks. And it's absolutely
not okay. Those things created shifts where instead of just getting angry, which I've
got plenty of anger. But instead of just being angry, I found myself wanting to inspire
(05:47):
and activate women to do something about it. Really truly like let's, let's do something
about it. And let's stop counting on other people to be better, do better, show up better.
I mean, I love it. I want people to do that. But I'm a control freak. And in this world,
I'm like, I got to count on me. And I'm going to help you count on you and be accountable
(06:07):
to yourself for the things that you want. To me, that really sounds like the bitch on this
show that we know and love the one who's accountable to herself to what her needs are.
And she's able to articulate it. And we love that you don't shy away from the word because
it's something that has such an impact. But can you walk us through what that is like
(06:29):
for the clients that you've worked at or with, you know, like that sometimes women shy
away from being that bold because they don't want to be called a bitch. How have you kind
of used that word as maybe a leverage for people, especially women to understand themselves
better?
Well, a couple of things. Yeah, you to answer the first part of your question, it's exhausting.
(06:52):
I'm not sharing any like big truths, but it really is like it's exhausting to contort yourself
to fit the needs of others, whether it's trying to stretch yourself to look bigger and
bolder and more assertive and more or more outwardly aggressive than you naturally are or the
opposite trying to make yourself soft and sweet and calm and just so so people will not react
(07:16):
to what you say, but maybe stop and listen. I don't often use the word bitch with my clients.
And what I mean by that is we refer to it all the time I talk about and it's not because
I don't cuss. I cuss a lot with my clients, but I don't think they see themselves as that.
It's more this idea of where do you not have authority where technically you should have
(07:37):
their titles. There might be C-suite leaders or VPs or the business owners or matriarchs
of their households, right? Where are the places where technically your title, your position
says you should have some authority, but the reality is you don't. And the second you
step in and you try to claim that authority, one of several things happens.
The one is internally that feels really uncomfortable. I have one client right now who probably in some
(08:06):
people's mind fits the bitch category because she just knows what she wants. She needs to slow
down and listen to people just a little bit more, but she's very unapologetic, very aggressive
in her language. But what she'll say is she learned to be that way because she was the only
woman in the room and when she showed the softer side of who she was, she got dismissed and
(08:26):
people didn't listen. So over 20 plus years of her career, she learned to make herself very
big and very in people's face and very quick to respond. Now that's coming back to hit
her in the face, right? Like it's not working for her and we suddenly have to recalibrate
everything and get her back in touch with the fact that she is at the core, somebody
(08:48):
who is a lot more caring, but she's put that side of her away in all places, like as a mother,
as a spouse, as a boss. We have to recalibrate everybody's opinion of her while teaching her
a whole new skill set that she once had, but she's lost for lack of use.
(09:10):
Well, lack of use. I like, probably lack of value outside of herself. Yes, yes, I guess both. Absolutely,
Christopher, both. Yeah, I mean, that is really the tricky part because as you're saying, so for so much
of our lives, we're trying to fit into this mold of expectations that either society says
(09:32):
is becoming of a woman or a lady and we'd love to hear your thoughts on that. But also,
you know, when these traditionally feminine characteristics, shall we say, of being softer
and collaborative and easygoing, when those things didn't work for us to get to the results
(09:54):
that we wanted in our careers and our lives, the authority or respect that we wanted in
our families, you know, it's like this kind of overcompensation that happens. And then
you're met with a whole new skill set or a whole new challenge set of how to evolve from
there. So what was it like for that client just to, because I think that it's delicate to
(10:16):
kind of find your inner authentic self rather than the push and pull between what you should
be. So this is where I'm going to be super biased and say, that's why you hire therapist
or coaches. I mean, because what happened for us were a series of conversations. And you
know what, they weren't conversations about work. The conversation started about motherhood
(10:42):
and parenting, even though I'm hired to do corporate executive coaching with her. And then
looking at the patterns in those relationships and going, oh, like I recognize that pattern,
that's the pattern that comes out at work. And then being able to talk about where is
this coming from? Because I started my career as a psychologist, it is pretty easy for me
to look at those patterns and pull them further. These aren't therapy sessions, but everything
(11:06):
we do is about our identity. So you asked earlier, you said, you know, how do you help people
out of this? A lot of it starts with redefining who, not redefining, without helping people
actually define in this moment, who they are and what it is they need. So on the other
end of the spectrum, I have another client, same thing, senior executive. When I first met
(11:29):
her, she looks really soft and sweet. And she's definitely your top definition of, has a seat
at the table, but it hasn't had a voice for at least a decade and getting trampled by
her supervisor. Watching her, like, come on calls. And she's older than me and saying, when
I grow up, I want to be like you. And I used to tell her, do you know how, like, I am a
(11:52):
mask. I have all my own insecurities and issues. Like, I don't, I don't hide them, but getting
her to a place where she can finally understand what it is she deeply wants and needs and realize
the massive disconnect between the way she's operating in the world today as a leader. And
the value she holds and the things that she wants as an individual. Once we do that, like,
(12:19):
it's so much fun because not only is it so much easier than to work on the systems and
strategy things of getting her to show up more powerfully to like use her voice to advocate
for the things she wants, but we have all these doors opening up. Like, these job offers
that are coming in that she was needing looking for a new opportunity because she's showing
up more powerfully and she's excellent at what she does, right? So it's the two things
(12:42):
are matching up. People are coming in. We just negotiated or we wrote at least an email
with describing what she wanted from this opportunity that was coming in. And all I did for her
was say, you said, da, da, da, da, da, and she's like, yeah, I'm like, why
is that not in your email? We usually put that in your email and she sent me a message
the other day she goes, okay, I would have never said these things on my own, but this
(13:07):
is so right for me and it's so aligned. And even if I don't get this job, I know that
this is exactly how I need to show up. It all comes down to defining who we are and
then making sure that that definition is expressed in the way we show up.
It's really fascinating because Heather and I are working on a project where we use bitch
(13:32):
and we break it into an acronym. The first of those letters is betrayal and that's
betrayal of women and that gender throughout history compared to what is available for
men and what is not available for women that men have access to. So that is a betrayal.
(13:53):
But the second, the eye is identity and it is about exactly what you're talking about.
It's about knowing what it is you want as an individual, not playing a role, not living
up to others expectations. Why has it become so difficult? I know men go through this too,
(14:15):
but I think we have an easier path through life, even if we don't know ourselves intimately.
For women, you have to pretend to be something else to get where you think you want to be
and you never get to know yourself.
I know one of the topics you are talking about is redefining the feminine and I shared
(14:38):
with you before we started this episode. So when I was a little girl, my friends would make
fun of me so much for this. So the second I'd walk out the house, my mom would be at the
front stoop. We lived in France, so different. Try to picture what a French house would
look like. And she would go, "Alessandra, remember, behave like a lady." And all my friends
would go, "Alessandra, remember, behave like a lady." And I told my mom later, my brother's
(15:06):
name is Christopher, and you never told Christopher to behave like a gentleman. Ever. It's just
like I said, I did. I go up to Christopher, and did she ever tell you to behave like a gentleman?
No. Exactly. I think it's so difficult because very well-meaning parents were all conditioned.
We have generation upon generation. I don't think it's now. I think you can go back 200
years and we'd still have the same problem. Very well-meaning parents are conditioned.
(15:31):
Mothers and fathers are conditioned to believe that for a girl to be okay and be accepted
by others, she has to behave in a certain way. So we start early. Be humble, be sweet, be
kind. Don't be too loud, don't be rambunctious. I was a kid with ADHD who didn't even know I
(15:56):
had ADHD. So I literally was climbing up walls on the roofs of my friends' houses into all
kinds of shenanigans. We still use the word "tomboy" at the time. Definitely was a tomboy who
loved dresses, but yeah, it was just biking around. I think it becomes hard because we're
conditioned from the time we're old enough to interact with other human beings to behave
(16:20):
very differently. So little girls are taught in preschool or whatever. I started my
career as a child psychologist by the way. So they're taught to share more, to be more patient
when other people break their things. There's this great book. Have I either of you read it?
It's called "Rage Becomes Her." No, but I have heard of it. It's so good. And even the
(16:44):
author talks about the story with her daughter of her daughter would go to preschool and
would build these things, would these build this block structure, and there's this little
boy who would break the structure. She'd build the structure and then the little boy would
break it. And she did all the things she was taught to do. She started instead of advocating
for that she moved the structure away. She tried to guard the structure. Then she would
(17:07):
use her words and tell him not to. Then she'd tell the teachers. And all these excuses
were made for this little boy. I have two sons. So all these excuses were made for a
little boy for why he was more rambunctious and he did it. And she was just taught that she needed
to accept. Even the author said, even she found herself caught in this wanting to address
(17:28):
it nicely. Instead of just teaching her daughter to go break the boy's structure and say,
"Do you see what it feels like?" And use empathy at that point. His ability now to empathize
with her experience to maybe break the pattern. Little girls from the time we were teeny
were taught all these things. And our parents aren't necessarily misogynistic or anything.
(17:51):
They're just, we're all socialized.
Yeah, we do live in a world where typically men have more physical strength and we want
to not have our daughters being bullied physically by boys who are physically stronger than they
are. So there's that going on in our brain as well as parents.
(18:13):
As well, as well. I mean, I was talking with, I was sharing a story the other day at an
event about this moment. And it was, I was an event. It was me, the person who invited
me was a woman and the rest were eight men. And we're talking, this topic got brought up
about the fact that I was held up at gunpoint once. And how what was my reaction? I said,
(18:34):
"Oh, I'm very calm under." And when really bad things happen, I'm very calm. Now the kitchen's
a mess. I lose my shape. But really bad things happen. I'm super calm. And I walked into my
thought process. My first thought process was, "I hope I don't die. I don't think my parents
could take this. This would be really bad." My second thought process was, "I hope
(18:56):
he doesn't rape me." Then the thought, "Well, they don't rape me." Then my thought was,
"If they rape me, I wonder if I can ask if they'll wear a condom." And then I happened
to be with a male friend and I thought, "God, I hope he doesn't try to be a hero. He shouldn't
die over this." Right? Like this inner strength of like, "I can handle the trauma if that was
(19:17):
done for me, but I don't." And the guys looked at me. They're like, "That's a lot of thoughts.
I'm like, that's being a woman." That's being a woman. I just want to circle back because
I think these two things are connected that, you know, if you're thinking of what it means
to redefine Ladylike, but what does that mean to you now? I know. I was going to say, I think
(19:42):
where I believe I snithered those. I know that being Ladylike is not a single definition.
I know that there's a spectrum of Ladylike from our stereotypical hyper feminine women
who deserve to stand in that space and own every single beautiful, soft, pretty piece of
it to women who don't give a shit about having children, do not have a single maternal, maternal
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bone in them and just have things that they want to do and conquer. One of the things I really
believe is pretty true for most women and a great differentiator for us as leaders is women
are super collaborative. So whether you're in this like frilly side or this hyper feminine
(20:31):
per stereotypical feminine definitions or this other side or the other extreme, women
tend to try to figure out how you can work with other people to make things happen. When
that disappears, where that disappears is when you remove opportunity from women. So all
(20:53):
of us know a woman who we label as a bitch because she's gotten to the top and she is guarding
the top. Man, I heard that somebody told me the expression "punching down" so she's punching
down to keep her space. I think that's the exception and not the rule. And we see that when somebody
has been forced to conform, to diminish themselves, like suffer so much a little bit like a bound
(21:19):
foot to get to the top that once they're there, they cannot stand the thought of losing what
they've already given up so much to achieve.
I find it interesting in the United States, so you've had these really very very charismatic
women run for presidency and almost each and every single one of them end up with the
(21:42):
beword behind them. That has to be so discouraging for any woman looking in that direction as far
as putting, pushing their career in that direction.
Yep, that would agree. I mean, America for as advances we think we are, the first seven
years in my life, I live in three different countries in the Middle East. We're so
(22:04):
far behind. We're in terms of values and morals and guiding principles and just that whole
openness of mind, it's very superficial. And the fact is, all of us spare responsibility
for us. All of us are paying more attention to what color of shoes or whether she wore
(22:27):
a pantsuit or a dress or a pair of jeans than the words that came out of her mouth or whether
her hair was properly done. All of us do it. And that, to a certain extent, is evolutionary.
Humans are visual animals, so we make a lot of judgments based on what people look like.
But we've also again been conditioned not to judge men, like not to pay attention to
(22:48):
that with men. It is disheartening. I do not believe, I'm 47, I do not believe America will see
a female president in my lifetime. I don't think it's ready. I don't think, I don't think
we'll see a female president. I was really, really happy to see a black president. I don't
know when's the next time we'll see somebody who's not a white Christian president for
(23:13):
white-proported Christian president. I don't know when's the first time we'll see a president
who's an atheist, for example, just somebody who's coming into space and being agnostic.
It is disheartening. It's disheartening because it carries all the way to the top. So what we're
seeing with the younger generations is there's this massive backlash against strong women
(23:36):
and against women in power. And it isn't correlated with data about what women are able to achieve
when you give them an opportunity to lead. The countries that were led by women during
COVID came out of COVID faster sooner, better companies that have more women in higher
(23:56):
levels of leadership tend to be more stable, more profitable, more innovative, literally
in terms of FDA patents will get more patents given to them. So data tells us it's good
business, but people's in our fears and this tendency to want to create an us versus them
mentality means that we're going to continue, we're entering at Dark Ages, right? We're
(24:20):
in the midst of, like, I thought of this about 10 years ago, I'm like, oh, we're re-entering
the middle ages, the Dark Ages. So I know there'll be a renaissance, but again, I don't
know, am I going to be an old lady by the time we come back into the renaissance? We better
than nothing, but yeah, it is interesting. The parallel because the Dark Ages, I mean,
(24:41):
we just had our black plague. We did. We did. We're going to be reconstructed. We're going
to be become hyper religious in all the wrong ways. We're going to, there's a fight against
science. And, and if we look at spaces, right, women right now are receiving more post-graduate
(25:01):
degrees than men. I, again, mother of two sons, I would just like things to be balanced. I
don't need women to outstrip men oftentimes when I'm having conversations with men about
what I do. I say, I just want to see what it looks like when women screw up at scale.
[Laughter]
Totally. Don't believe that women are fundamentally better than men. I just don't know what it
(25:24):
looks like when we screw up at scale. What are the mistakes we make? And then we can figure
out which kind of leaders belong in which spaces. That's what I'm interested in doing. I want
to see women, and this is the work I'm doing. So what happens to happen with women in senior
leadership is women get all the way to the top and once they get there, they're like,
"Fuck it." Because they either, as I say, they have the titles, they have a compensation,
(25:49):
but they don't have any voice. What was the point? Or they get up there and they're
like, things were supposed to be better. I technically have proven myself, but they don't
really have the freedom, the impact, the influence they wanted to have. Or they've burnt
themselves so much and once they're at the top because the system still isn't built for
(26:09):
most average women, let's just say, it's just too hard. So the thing that happened with
the New Zealand premiere where she got up and after a few years, she like, "I'm out.
There's too much is untenable." That tends to be what happens with women in senior leadership.
It's already only a teeny portion of women get up to senior leadership and so many of them
(26:30):
step down far too early. So what I'm trying to do is to make sure that when they get up there,
we position them to have the things that they were promised, influence, impact. Some authority
not so that they can bang people down, but so they can create change, a life, like freedom.
And then that, the whole point, I'm supposed to work really hard and get to the top and then
(26:53):
maybe I can catch my breath. And then we create stable ecosystems for these women to lead
well with men and with other people. And we have a better society.
I vote you for president.
I'm too ethical. I'm too ethical and too smart to ever go into politics.
(27:16):
I do definitely that as our vicious circle though, especially like with how scared people
are about war and what is happening around the world, it's like they continue to elect men
to get us out of the decisions that has been based on a very combative mentality.
(27:37):
So what do you see as people being able to reshift that if we keep voting the same way,
we're getting the same results. Because I feel that when people are scared about their own
country sovereignty, they go with the strongest, most, you know, almost fearful, aggressive
masculine that they can find just so that they have the big bully on the block that's
(28:01):
not going to get pushed around.
Where does women's leadership not, like, that she doesn't need to change who she is to
meet that what you talked about, that rising into a position where male characteristics
are what are prized to get there, but not what's needed at this time.
(28:23):
At the political level, I don't know because there are too many, there are too many people
you choose. I remember in my household when Biden stepped aside, my husband was so hopeful.
He was so excited. He's like, "This, this is going to be huge. This is going to be, and
I looked at him and I'm like, they need to put a white male. They need to put a white male."
(28:46):
And he goes, "What are you talking about? This is what you're wearing. I'm like, she won't
get elected." He's like, "No, no, no. You'll see." And I'm like, she's not going to get
elected. And she's not going to get elected not because I didn't think that she would
be great. I don't know whether she'd be great. I haven't seen it yet, right? But I'm
like, America will not vote for her. It doesn't matter. It does not matter.
What she does. So maybe the solution is, and maybe the reason I push so much for this stuff
(29:12):
to happen at the business and corporate level is that when we reach that critical mass
of people who are seeing leadership, so when you say the word leader in their mind, either
a woman or a man can appear in their mind, as opposed to immediately, if I say, "Oh, I
was talking to the CEO of this company. I was talking to the head of a Fortune 5 company
(29:36):
that I always want to see a man." Maybe when we get to the point where at a business
corporate level, we picture women too. Then it'll be easier to picture a woman at the
home of this country for America. Clearly, for the rest of the world, this isn't the case.
There are so many countries in the African continent that have like women, women presidents,
if you've seen Germany have a female chancellor, we've seen Britain have female primaries.
(30:04):
We've seen France. I mean, this isn't an American problem right now. I have a very American
problem. I think Heather and I had that conversation
prior to the election. I think the conversation went exactly the way you just described it.
My husband was, I mean, I was crushed. I was crying. I was scared. And because I actually
was just sleeping with my Harris Walls t-shirt the other day. He was like, "We won't
(30:29):
go back." And I'm like, "Yep, we did." That was the goal, right? And he was completely,
and he is a rational, he's a super rational informed person, but he was so shocked. And I
was just sadly proven right. That's the only thing. I was crushed in being proven right.
(30:50):
And he'd gotten me just hopeful, because he's the pessimist and I'm the optimist. I'm
like, "Oh, you see this as possible. Maybe it could happen." So when it didn't, I'm like,
"Damn it!" The one time where that role reversal was right. But we see it all around. And
(31:10):
I think part of it to go to the work you're doing and to me what's so important about
what you're putting out and the beauty of this podcast is we do have to redefine what it
means to be feminine. We need to start removing words like soft or better yet, not associate
(31:31):
the word soft with weak. Exactly. Exactly. Because softness is beautiful. I would like a soft
landing rather than a hard landing if I'm in an airplane. And that's something that's
properly executed that's efficient and smooth and well done. So we need to redefine all
these adjectives that we associate with women and with femininity. You need to be redefined.
(31:54):
And our definition of feminine needs to be expanded. And then we have to stop putting
this word bitch in place of boss or in place of powerful or assertiveness. Like assertiveness is the
highest form of communication period. As a psychologist when you teach
(32:14):
people healthy communication you teach them to be assertive. We can't say that with men
that's great and with women it's a terrible thing that we're supposed to be passive or passive
aggressive, which is basically what we want women to be. It's interesting because when
you when you started this conversation you started with how men compliment you for the
way you carry yourself. And a lot of them express fear in the way you carry yourself
(32:39):
even though they respect it they fear it. So they don't necessarily want to go there with
every woman they encounter. Right. Oh and I'm sure it works against me. That's the thing
right. So there are two there are two quotes that I love pulling. One was one was from a
friend of mine. It was after a lot of Saki. She's got a really powerful wife like she
(33:02):
is, she is strong woman. So it surprised me when he we were talking about strong women
and he said you scare this shit out of me. And I'm like what do you mean? And he goes I think
it invited him to be on some professional things with me and he said well you just walk in
and you're clear about what you want and you speak directly and like you get to the point.
And this is a somebody who's also I'm the person in the conversation who's touching your
(33:28):
shoulder what I'm talking to you. I'm super casual. Like so that warmth is there but it's
the confidence that was scary. And then another guy who's also a leader and he said it as a complete
compliment to my face. He's like I just want you to know I really like I'm I'm really impressed
by you. I'm really really respect you and you scare me a little bit. And again when we ask about
(33:52):
that it's that it's walking into a space with conviction and just being like being like this
like just being clear. I'm like how is this scary? But they're not the only ones. So it's okay if
it's said like that there's warmth. There's probably a problem with it too. I'm probably losing
opportunity. The problem is how about all the people, men and women who take those same qualities
(34:13):
and go I know she's really good but she's like kind of a bitch. Absolutely. But then that then
disqualifies all the things that I respect about you. I can compartmentalize it and put it down here.
Easily. Yeah. Well I think the beauty of it is you know that each and every one of us you know it
it's it's as you said you know that it's not just one way that you present yourself like you know
(34:40):
let's say it's hiring that coach and getting to know that authentic voice that's really truly you
and you know regardless of how that's interpreted by someone else that you're walking through the
world with that conviction. I mean you can't that's something that I feel like when she makes her own
stage you can't tear her off of it because she's really made it for herself you know easier said
(35:04):
than done. I mean words can bring anyone down but I feel like the women that I see who have really
you know made that platform for for themselves are the ones where you know you can call me whatever
you want but I've really worked a lot on who I am and I'm really happy with that person. That
thing I often give an example when I started as a psychologist I was 26 and they don't get this
(35:28):
when I talk about in Europe so I have to find the brand for Europe but I'm like I shopped at Talbot's
and Christopher I don't know if you have a context for this but Talbot's is like the super
conservative sweater says they're not meant for 26 year old but I was Dr. Wall so I wanted to come
into the room and show up as Dr. Wall but in my head I was sitting there going oh my goodness
I can't believe I get to do this this is so awesome so happy to be on the screen this is really amazing
(35:51):
like I want to talk to them about all these things and I spent a few years trying to play Dr. Wall
and it's really hard because in my head I'd have to like vet every single thing I said
to match what I was told a therapist should be distant you know what
there came a point where I was like I can't do this because because I still do have that ADD so
(36:15):
of impulsivity in terms of I just want to say what I say my mind moves it a thousand miles an hour
and I let go of that and then I just started showing up as me in the therapy room
I'm showing up as me and meant sometimes I remember walking out with a patient of mine whose
daughter had made a suicide attempt she's fine um and he was crying I look at him and I'm like do you
(36:36):
need a hug and he goes yes I'm like I give real hugs like I need I need you to know that I'm not
going to pat you and release your back because yeah so I just held them for like a good 30 seconds
if you've ever given somebody a 30 say it's a long hug you know what he got every single session
for the many years we worked together on a variety of different things a hug and and I would joke
(37:00):
and I would give advice sometimes and I would curse and in allowing myself to show up as myself
imperfect I became a far better therapist my patients made gains faster the gains were solid
I still am into I haven't practiced since 2022 in that space but I'm still in touch with some patients
(37:23):
and they'll still talk about it I get to see the shifts actually one of my patients is now in my
gym which is always a little bit strange initially but you get to look at the changes people make
them I'm like that happened because I was allowed to be myself and in being myself I could be the right
person for the person in front of me if we can allow all women to do that in my space if we can allow
(37:46):
female leaders to do that then we're going to get them to be better leaders better leaders for
everybody makes everyone's life better makes the bottom line better but beyond that it makes the
humans who are under the leadership of this individual happier better healthier just don't win win
yes yes well it was just so wonderful to have you can you let our listeners know where they can
(38:15):
find out a little bit more about you and connect with you further because you've been such a joy to
have on on our show today it's been it's been so much fun thank you so much um two places one I'll be
honest it needs to be updated a little bit would be my website which is noteworthyink.co so
I N C for the Inc and then the other thing is LinkedIn I am I am most prolific oh and I'm on Substack now
(38:43):
under DR W A L L S A Y S. I love writing content so that's my new space to share content
fantastic. I'm so happy that one of the words in our title the bitch brought us together me too this
is fantastic. Thank you, thank you so much and when you finish that work please send it over because I
(39:07):
have so many women I need to share it with and men I have so many good men I need to share it with. Absolutely, anytime.
We may even touch base with you to get some of your feedback and we'll work with us every single day
absolutely anytime fantastic. Thank you so much, thank you and you haven't listened to the Virgin
the Beauty and the Bitch, the bitch bitch bitch yes yeah
(39:28):
Find us, Like us, share us. Come on back. To become a partner in the VBB community we invite you to find
us at virginbeautybitch.com, like us on facebook, instagram and linkedIn, and share us with people who are
defiantly different like you. Until next time thanks for listening
Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique
(00:10):
life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.
Let's talk, shall we?
In a relentless search to find amazing guests for a podcast, I came across this profile.
Psychologists turned executive coach advocating for women leaders and challenging the boss equals
(00:34):
bitch standards that cage strong, ambitious women. After reading that, I immediately fired
off an invitation and we're happy today to welcome Dr. Alessandra Wall to Virgin Beauty
Bitch. Welcome!
Hey, how are you?
We're great.
Oh my goodness. Did I write that? That's really good.
(01:00):
We were like, "Moth to a flame."
You specialize in coaching and guiding senior executive women working as leaders in high
stakes male dominated industries that often get them caught up in being misunderstood
and often being called bitch. What drew you to that particular profession?
(01:25):
There are three reasons. One is the most superficial reason I think, which is, it's going to sound
silly, but I was working with these women at a time where I didn't really understand
where it was like to be them or to be in their world. I don't even think I had a true intellectual
understanding of it and when I finally got it, I was shocked and a little ashamed of how
(01:51):
little I understood what it takes to operate at a high level. How hard it is just to get into
the right rooms, but even when you're in the rooms to have a voice in those rooms and
when you have a voice to not somehow be taken down for having a voice. That's the simplest
of it. In hindsight, I think there's a lot of similarities between the women I work
(02:17):
with and myself as a little girl. I've always kind of pushed myself into spaces where maybe
I didn't belong or wanted to belong. Maybe I did belong to even no I did. It's always
this double bind of being in there. So wanting to probably fix some of that. When you learn
(02:41):
when you're a psychologist, you learn every therapist is just trying to fix some childhood
wound of some kind. So even in coaching, I think this pays off. And then the third one,
the piaars about being a bitch, I talk about this often. I have a lot of people who only
see the side of me that looks really strong, which I love. I've worked hard to not to pretend
(03:03):
to be confident, but to own who I am, which looks really confident, even though half the
time I'm owning lack of confidence. But I get this compliment all the time, mostly by men,
but not only men, which is, I'm so impressed, you're so inspiring, and I'm a little scared.
(03:23):
I've heard that with many exploitives put like you scare the shit out of me and other things
like that. And it said as a compliment. To me, that's tough, right? It's like you do all
the things you need to do to have a voice and to make a difference. But even when people
are complimenting you, somehow there's this idea that you have to make yourself smaller
(03:47):
or different or control yourself to make people comfortable.
But you didn't grow up with that perspective at all. That's interesting to me. That is
because you, like you said, put yourself into positions where maybe a lot of girls would
not put themselves. So you got conditioned out of having this judgment put on you.
(04:14):
Actually, I think it's because my house was in many ways very stereotypically heteronormative
for lack of a better word. My dad was born in 1928 in Kansas and my mom was born in 1939 in
Paris, France. And my mom was a secretary back when back when there were secretaries, right?
It was a very Mad Men love affair. My dad was a breadwinner for a long time. Even when
(04:36):
that flipped, there was a period in our life where my father wasn't able to make money.
And my mom was a breadwinner as with her secretary opposition. The, the, my mom wasn't an ambitious
person. So I didn't get to see what happened when you played outside of the, the, the lines
that people put around you. And then I became a psychologist and as a psychologist, the truth
(05:00):
is, like, especially because I owned my own business, I was the boss. I was the person with
the most authority in the room. Nobody was walking in that room questioning my authority.
And if they did, we probably weren't going to work together. So in hindsight, I could look
at the ceilings in hindsight. I'm so thankful for the Me-Too movement because there's so many
(05:21):
things I took for granted where I was like, this sucks, but it's just part of the experience
of being a woman that suddenly shifted into, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, this sucks. And it's absolutely
not okay. Those things created shifts where instead of just getting angry, which I've
got plenty of anger. But instead of just being angry, I found myself wanting to inspire
(05:47):
and activate women to do something about it. Really truly like let's, let's do something
about it. And let's stop counting on other people to be better, do better, show up better.
I mean, I love it. I want people to do that. But I'm a control freak. And in this world,
I'm like, I got to count on me. And I'm going to help you count on you and be accountable
(06:07):
to yourself for the things that you want. To me, that really sounds like the bitch on this
show that we know and love the one who's accountable to herself to what her needs are.
And she's able to articulate it. And we love that you don't shy away from the word because
it's something that has such an impact. But can you walk us through what that is like
(06:29):
for the clients that you've worked at or with, you know, like that sometimes women shy
away from being that bold because they don't want to be called a bitch. How have you kind
of used that word as maybe a leverage for people, especially women to understand themselves
better?
Well, a couple of things. Yeah, you to answer the first part of your question, it's exhausting.
(06:52):
I'm not sharing any like big truths, but it really is like it's exhausting to contort yourself
to fit the needs of others, whether it's trying to stretch yourself to look bigger and
bolder and more assertive and more or more outwardly aggressive than you naturally are or the
opposite trying to make yourself soft and sweet and calm and just so so people will not react
(07:16):
to what you say, but maybe stop and listen. I don't often use the word bitch with my clients.
And what I mean by that is we refer to it all the time I talk about and it's not because
I don't cuss. I cuss a lot with my clients, but I don't think they see themselves as that.
It's more this idea of where do you not have authority where technically you should have
(07:37):
their titles. There might be C-suite leaders or VPs or the business owners or matriarchs
of their households, right? Where are the places where technically your title, your position
says you should have some authority, but the reality is you don't. And the second you
step in and you try to claim that authority, one of several things happens.
The one is internally that feels really uncomfortable. I have one client right now who probably in some
(08:06):
people's mind fits the bitch category because she just knows what she wants. She needs to slow
down and listen to people just a little bit more, but she's very unapologetic, very aggressive
in her language. But what she'll say is she learned to be that way because she was the only
woman in the room and when she showed the softer side of who she was, she got dismissed and
(08:26):
people didn't listen. So over 20 plus years of her career, she learned to make herself very
big and very in people's face and very quick to respond. Now that's coming back to hit
her in the face, right? Like it's not working for her and we suddenly have to recalibrate
everything and get her back in touch with the fact that she is at the core, somebody
(08:48):
who is a lot more caring, but she's put that side of her away in all places, like as a mother,
as a spouse, as a boss. We have to recalibrate everybody's opinion of her while teaching her
a whole new skill set that she once had, but she's lost for lack of use.
(09:10):
Well, lack of use. I like, probably lack of value outside of herself. Yes, yes, I guess both. Absolutely,
Christopher, both. Yeah, I mean, that is really the tricky part because as you're saying, so for so much
of our lives, we're trying to fit into this mold of expectations that either society says
(09:32):
is becoming of a woman or a lady and we'd love to hear your thoughts on that. But also,
you know, when these traditionally feminine characteristics, shall we say, of being softer
and collaborative and easygoing, when those things didn't work for us to get to the results
(09:54):
that we wanted in our careers and our lives, the authority or respect that we wanted in
our families, you know, it's like this kind of overcompensation that happens. And then
you're met with a whole new skill set or a whole new challenge set of how to evolve from
there. So what was it like for that client just to, because I think that it's delicate to
(10:16):
kind of find your inner authentic self rather than the push and pull between what you should
be. So this is where I'm going to be super biased and say, that's why you hire therapist
or coaches. I mean, because what happened for us were a series of conversations. And you
know what, they weren't conversations about work. The conversation started about motherhood
(10:42):
and parenting, even though I'm hired to do corporate executive coaching with her. And then
looking at the patterns in those relationships and going, oh, like I recognize that pattern,
that's the pattern that comes out at work. And then being able to talk about where is
this coming from? Because I started my career as a psychologist, it is pretty easy for me
to look at those patterns and pull them further. These aren't therapy sessions, but everything
(11:06):
we do is about our identity. So you asked earlier, you said, you know, how do you help people
out of this? A lot of it starts with redefining who, not redefining, without helping people
actually define in this moment, who they are and what it is they need. So on the other
end of the spectrum, I have another client, same thing, senior executive. When I first met
(11:29):
her, she looks really soft and sweet. And she's definitely your top definition of, has a seat
at the table, but it hasn't had a voice for at least a decade and getting trampled by
her supervisor. Watching her, like, come on calls. And she's older than me and saying, when
I grow up, I want to be like you. And I used to tell her, do you know how, like, I am a
(11:52):
mask. I have all my own insecurities and issues. Like, I don't, I don't hide them, but getting
her to a place where she can finally understand what it is she deeply wants and needs and realize
the massive disconnect between the way she's operating in the world today as a leader. And
the value she holds and the things that she wants as an individual. Once we do that, like,
(12:19):
it's so much fun because not only is it so much easier than to work on the systems and
strategy things of getting her to show up more powerfully to like use her voice to advocate
for the things she wants, but we have all these doors opening up. Like, these job offers
that are coming in that she was needing looking for a new opportunity because she's showing
up more powerfully and she's excellent at what she does, right? So it's the two things
(12:42):
are matching up. People are coming in. We just negotiated or we wrote at least an email
with describing what she wanted from this opportunity that was coming in. And all I did for her
was say, you said, da, da, da, da, da, and she's like, yeah, I'm like, why
is that not in your email? We usually put that in your email and she sent me a message
the other day she goes, okay, I would have never said these things on my own, but this
(13:07):
is so right for me and it's so aligned. And even if I don't get this job, I know that
this is exactly how I need to show up. It all comes down to defining who we are and
then making sure that that definition is expressed in the way we show up.
It's really fascinating because Heather and I are working on a project where we use bitch
(13:32):
and we break it into an acronym. The first of those letters is betrayal and that's
betrayal of women and that gender throughout history compared to what is available for
men and what is not available for women that men have access to. So that is a betrayal.
(13:53):
But the second, the eye is identity and it is about exactly what you're talking about.
It's about knowing what it is you want as an individual, not playing a role, not living
up to others expectations. Why has it become so difficult? I know men go through this too,
(14:15):
but I think we have an easier path through life, even if we don't know ourselves intimately.
For women, you have to pretend to be something else to get where you think you want to be
and you never get to know yourself.
I know one of the topics you are talking about is redefining the feminine and I shared
(14:38):
with you before we started this episode. So when I was a little girl, my friends would make
fun of me so much for this. So the second I'd walk out the house, my mom would be at the
front stoop. We lived in France, so different. Try to picture what a French house would
look like. And she would go, "Alessandra, remember, behave like a lady." And all my friends
would go, "Alessandra, remember, behave like a lady." And I told my mom later, my brother's
(15:06):
name is Christopher, and you never told Christopher to behave like a gentleman. Ever. It's just
like I said, I did. I go up to Christopher, and did she ever tell you to behave like a gentleman?
No. Exactly. I think it's so difficult because very well-meaning parents were all conditioned.
We have generation upon generation. I don't think it's now. I think you can go back 200
years and we'd still have the same problem. Very well-meaning parents are conditioned.
(15:31):
Mothers and fathers are conditioned to believe that for a girl to be okay and be accepted
by others, she has to behave in a certain way. So we start early. Be humble, be sweet, be
kind. Don't be too loud, don't be rambunctious. I was a kid with ADHD who didn't even know I
(15:56):
had ADHD. So I literally was climbing up walls on the roofs of my friends' houses into all
kinds of shenanigans. We still use the word "tomboy" at the time. Definitely was a tomboy who
loved dresses, but yeah, it was just biking around. I think it becomes hard because we're
conditioned from the time we're old enough to interact with other human beings to behave
(16:20):
very differently. So little girls are taught in preschool or whatever. I started my
career as a child psychologist by the way. So they're taught to share more, to be more patient
when other people break their things. There's this great book. Have I either of you read it?
It's called "Rage Becomes Her." No, but I have heard of it. It's so good. And even the
(16:44):
author talks about the story with her daughter of her daughter would go to preschool and
would build these things, would these build this block structure, and there's this little
boy who would break the structure. She'd build the structure and then the little boy would
break it. And she did all the things she was taught to do. She started instead of advocating
for that she moved the structure away. She tried to guard the structure. Then she would
(17:07):
use her words and tell him not to. Then she'd tell the teachers. And all these excuses
were made for this little boy. I have two sons. So all these excuses were made for a
little boy for why he was more rambunctious and he did it. And she was just taught that she needed
to accept. Even the author said, even she found herself caught in this wanting to address
(17:28):
it nicely. Instead of just teaching her daughter to go break the boy's structure and say,
"Do you see what it feels like?" And use empathy at that point. His ability now to empathize
with her experience to maybe break the pattern. Little girls from the time we were teeny
were taught all these things. And our parents aren't necessarily misogynistic or anything.
(17:51):
They're just, we're all socialized.
Yeah, we do live in a world where typically men have more physical strength and we want
to not have our daughters being bullied physically by boys who are physically stronger than they
are. So there's that going on in our brain as well as parents.
(18:13):
As well, as well. I mean, I was talking with, I was sharing a story the other day at an
event about this moment. And it was, I was an event. It was me, the person who invited
me was a woman and the rest were eight men. And we're talking, this topic got brought up
about the fact that I was held up at gunpoint once. And how what was my reaction? I said,
(18:34):
"Oh, I'm very calm under." And when really bad things happen, I'm very calm. Now the kitchen's
a mess. I lose my shape. But really bad things happen. I'm super calm. And I walked into my
thought process. My first thought process was, "I hope I don't die. I don't think my parents
could take this. This would be really bad." My second thought process was, "I hope
(18:56):
he doesn't rape me." Then the thought, "Well, they don't rape me." Then my thought was,
"If they rape me, I wonder if I can ask if they'll wear a condom." And then I happened
to be with a male friend and I thought, "God, I hope he doesn't try to be a hero. He shouldn't
die over this." Right? Like this inner strength of like, "I can handle the trauma if that was
(19:17):
done for me, but I don't." And the guys looked at me. They're like, "That's a lot of thoughts.
I'm like, that's being a woman." That's being a woman. I just want to circle back because
I think these two things are connected that, you know, if you're thinking of what it means
to redefine Ladylike, but what does that mean to you now? I know. I was going to say, I think
(19:42):
where I believe I snithered those. I know that being Ladylike is not a single definition.
I know that there's a spectrum of Ladylike from our stereotypical hyper feminine women
who deserve to stand in that space and own every single beautiful, soft, pretty piece of
it to women who don't give a shit about having children, do not have a single maternal, maternal
(20:07):
bone in them and just have things that they want to do and conquer. One of the things I really
believe is pretty true for most women and a great differentiator for us as leaders is women
are super collaborative. So whether you're in this like frilly side or this hyper feminine
(20:31):
per stereotypical feminine definitions or this other side or the other extreme, women
tend to try to figure out how you can work with other people to make things happen. When
that disappears, where that disappears is when you remove opportunity from women. So all
(20:53):
of us know a woman who we label as a bitch because she's gotten to the top and she is guarding
the top. Man, I heard that somebody told me the expression "punching down" so she's punching
down to keep her space. I think that's the exception and not the rule. And we see that when somebody
has been forced to conform, to diminish themselves, like suffer so much a little bit like a bound
(21:19):
foot to get to the top that once they're there, they cannot stand the thought of losing what
they've already given up so much to achieve.
I find it interesting in the United States, so you've had these really very very charismatic
women run for presidency and almost each and every single one of them end up with the
(21:42):
beword behind them. That has to be so discouraging for any woman looking in that direction as far
as putting, pushing their career in that direction.
Yep, that would agree. I mean, America for as advances we think we are, the first seven
years in my life, I live in three different countries in the Middle East. We're so
(22:04):
far behind. We're in terms of values and morals and guiding principles and just that whole
openness of mind, it's very superficial. And the fact is, all of us spare responsibility
for us. All of us are paying more attention to what color of shoes or whether she wore
(22:27):
a pantsuit or a dress or a pair of jeans than the words that came out of her mouth or whether
her hair was properly done. All of us do it. And that, to a certain extent, is evolutionary.
Humans are visual animals, so we make a lot of judgments based on what people look like.
But we've also again been conditioned not to judge men, like not to pay attention to
(22:48):
that with men. It is disheartening. I do not believe, I'm 47, I do not believe America will see
a female president in my lifetime. I don't think it's ready. I don't think, I don't think
we'll see a female president. I was really, really happy to see a black president. I don't
know when's the next time we'll see somebody who's not a white Christian president for
(23:13):
white-proported Christian president. I don't know when's the first time we'll see a president
who's an atheist, for example, just somebody who's coming into space and being agnostic.
It is disheartening. It's disheartening because it carries all the way to the top. So what we're
seeing with the younger generations is there's this massive backlash against strong women
(23:36):
and against women in power. And it isn't correlated with data about what women are able to achieve
when you give them an opportunity to lead. The countries that were led by women during
COVID came out of COVID faster sooner, better companies that have more women in higher
(23:56):
levels of leadership tend to be more stable, more profitable, more innovative, literally
in terms of FDA patents will get more patents given to them. So data tells us it's good
business, but people's in our fears and this tendency to want to create an us versus them
mentality means that we're going to continue, we're entering at Dark Ages, right? We're
(24:20):
in the midst of, like, I thought of this about 10 years ago, I'm like, oh, we're re-entering
the middle ages, the Dark Ages. So I know there'll be a renaissance, but again, I don't
know, am I going to be an old lady by the time we come back into the renaissance? We better
than nothing, but yeah, it is interesting. The parallel because the Dark Ages, I mean,
(24:41):
we just had our black plague. We did. We did. We're going to be reconstructed. We're going
to be become hyper religious in all the wrong ways. We're going to, there's a fight against
science. And, and if we look at spaces, right, women right now are receiving more post-graduate
(25:01):
degrees than men. I, again, mother of two sons, I would just like things to be balanced. I
don't need women to outstrip men oftentimes when I'm having conversations with men about
what I do. I say, I just want to see what it looks like when women screw up at scale.
[Laughter]
Totally. Don't believe that women are fundamentally better than men. I just don't know what it
(25:24):
looks like when we screw up at scale. What are the mistakes we make? And then we can figure
out which kind of leaders belong in which spaces. That's what I'm interested in doing. I want
to see women, and this is the work I'm doing. So what happens to happen with women in senior
leadership is women get all the way to the top and once they get there, they're like,
"Fuck it." Because they either, as I say, they have the titles, they have a compensation,
(25:49):
but they don't have any voice. What was the point? Or they get up there and they're
like, things were supposed to be better. I technically have proven myself, but they don't
really have the freedom, the impact, the influence they wanted to have. Or they've burnt
themselves so much and once they're at the top because the system still isn't built for
(26:09):
most average women, let's just say, it's just too hard. So the thing that happened with
the New Zealand premiere where she got up and after a few years, she like, "I'm out.
There's too much is untenable." That tends to be what happens with women in senior leadership.
It's already only a teeny portion of women get up to senior leadership and so many of them
(26:30):
step down far too early. So what I'm trying to do is to make sure that when they get up there,
we position them to have the things that they were promised, influence, impact. Some authority
not so that they can bang people down, but so they can create change, a life, like freedom.
And then that, the whole point, I'm supposed to work really hard and get to the top and then
(26:53):
maybe I can catch my breath. And then we create stable ecosystems for these women to lead
well with men and with other people. And we have a better society.
I vote you for president.
I'm too ethical. I'm too ethical and too smart to ever go into politics.
(27:16):
I do definitely that as our vicious circle though, especially like with how scared people
are about war and what is happening around the world, it's like they continue to elect men
to get us out of the decisions that has been based on a very combative mentality.
(27:37):
So what do you see as people being able to reshift that if we keep voting the same way,
we're getting the same results. Because I feel that when people are scared about their own
country sovereignty, they go with the strongest, most, you know, almost fearful, aggressive
masculine that they can find just so that they have the big bully on the block that's
(28:01):
not going to get pushed around.
Where does women's leadership not, like, that she doesn't need to change who she is to
meet that what you talked about, that rising into a position where male characteristics
are what are prized to get there, but not what's needed at this time.
(28:23):
At the political level, I don't know because there are too many, there are too many people
you choose. I remember in my household when Biden stepped aside, my husband was so hopeful.
He was so excited. He's like, "This, this is going to be huge. This is going to be, and
I looked at him and I'm like, they need to put a white male. They need to put a white male."
(28:46):
And he goes, "What are you talking about? This is what you're wearing. I'm like, she won't
get elected." He's like, "No, no, no. You'll see." And I'm like, she's not going to get
elected. And she's not going to get elected not because I didn't think that she would
be great. I don't know whether she'd be great. I haven't seen it yet, right? But I'm
like, America will not vote for her. It doesn't matter. It does not matter.
What she does. So maybe the solution is, and maybe the reason I push so much for this stuff
(29:12):
to happen at the business and corporate level is that when we reach that critical mass
of people who are seeing leadership, so when you say the word leader in their mind, either
a woman or a man can appear in their mind, as opposed to immediately, if I say, "Oh, I
was talking to the CEO of this company. I was talking to the head of a Fortune 5 company
(29:36):
that I always want to see a man." Maybe when we get to the point where at a business
corporate level, we picture women too. Then it'll be easier to picture a woman at the
home of this country for America. Clearly, for the rest of the world, this isn't the case.
There are so many countries in the African continent that have like women, women presidents,
if you've seen Germany have a female chancellor, we've seen Britain have female primaries.
(30:04):
We've seen France. I mean, this isn't an American problem right now. I have a very American
problem. I think Heather and I had that conversation
prior to the election. I think the conversation went exactly the way you just described it.
My husband was, I mean, I was crushed. I was crying. I was scared. And because I actually
was just sleeping with my Harris Walls t-shirt the other day. He was like, "We won't
(30:29):
go back." And I'm like, "Yep, we did." That was the goal, right? And he was completely,
and he is a rational, he's a super rational informed person, but he was so shocked. And I
was just sadly proven right. That's the only thing. I was crushed in being proven right.
(30:50):
And he'd gotten me just hopeful, because he's the pessimist and I'm the optimist. I'm
like, "Oh, you see this as possible. Maybe it could happen." So when it didn't, I'm like,
"Damn it!" The one time where that role reversal was right. But we see it all around. And
(31:10):
I think part of it to go to the work you're doing and to me what's so important about
what you're putting out and the beauty of this podcast is we do have to redefine what it
means to be feminine. We need to start removing words like soft or better yet, not associate
(31:31):
the word soft with weak. Exactly. Exactly. Because softness is beautiful. I would like a soft
landing rather than a hard landing if I'm in an airplane. And that's something that's
properly executed that's efficient and smooth and well done. So we need to redefine all
these adjectives that we associate with women and with femininity. You need to be redefined.
(31:54):
And our definition of feminine needs to be expanded. And then we have to stop putting
this word bitch in place of boss or in place of powerful or assertiveness. Like assertiveness is the
highest form of communication period. As a psychologist when you teach
(32:14):
people healthy communication you teach them to be assertive. We can't say that with men
that's great and with women it's a terrible thing that we're supposed to be passive or passive
aggressive, which is basically what we want women to be. It's interesting because when
you when you started this conversation you started with how men compliment you for the
way you carry yourself. And a lot of them express fear in the way you carry yourself
(32:39):
even though they respect it they fear it. So they don't necessarily want to go there with
every woman they encounter. Right. Oh and I'm sure it works against me. That's the thing
right. So there are two there are two quotes that I love pulling. One was one was from a
friend of mine. It was after a lot of Saki. She's got a really powerful wife like she
(33:02):
is, she is strong woman. So it surprised me when he we were talking about strong women
and he said you scare this shit out of me. And I'm like what do you mean? And he goes I think
it invited him to be on some professional things with me and he said well you just walk in
and you're clear about what you want and you speak directly and like you get to the point.
And this is a somebody who's also I'm the person in the conversation who's touching your
(33:28):
shoulder what I'm talking to you. I'm super casual. Like so that warmth is there but it's
the confidence that was scary. And then another guy who's also a leader and he said it as a complete
compliment to my face. He's like I just want you to know I really like I'm I'm really impressed
by you. I'm really really respect you and you scare me a little bit. And again when we ask about
(33:52):
that it's that it's walking into a space with conviction and just being like being like this
like just being clear. I'm like how is this scary? But they're not the only ones. So it's okay if
it's said like that there's warmth. There's probably a problem with it too. I'm probably losing
opportunity. The problem is how about all the people, men and women who take those same qualities
(34:13):
and go I know she's really good but she's like kind of a bitch. Absolutely. But then that then
disqualifies all the things that I respect about you. I can compartmentalize it and put it down here.
Easily. Yeah. Well I think the beauty of it is you know that each and every one of us you know it
it's it's as you said you know that it's not just one way that you present yourself like you know
(34:40):
let's say it's hiring that coach and getting to know that authentic voice that's really truly you
and you know regardless of how that's interpreted by someone else that you're walking through the
world with that conviction. I mean you can't that's something that I feel like when she makes her own
stage you can't tear her off of it because she's really made it for herself you know easier said
(35:04):
than done. I mean words can bring anyone down but I feel like the women that I see who have really
you know made that platform for for themselves are the ones where you know you can call me whatever
you want but I've really worked a lot on who I am and I'm really happy with that person. That
thing I often give an example when I started as a psychologist I was 26 and they don't get this
(35:28):
when I talk about in Europe so I have to find the brand for Europe but I'm like I shopped at Talbot's
and Christopher I don't know if you have a context for this but Talbot's is like the super
conservative sweater says they're not meant for 26 year old but I was Dr. Wall so I wanted to come
into the room and show up as Dr. Wall but in my head I was sitting there going oh my goodness
I can't believe I get to do this this is so awesome so happy to be on the screen this is really amazing
(35:51):
like I want to talk to them about all these things and I spent a few years trying to play Dr. Wall
and it's really hard because in my head I'd have to like vet every single thing I said
to match what I was told a therapist should be distant you know what
there came a point where I was like I can't do this because because I still do have that ADD so
(36:15):
of impulsivity in terms of I just want to say what I say my mind moves it a thousand miles an hour
and I let go of that and then I just started showing up as me in the therapy room
I'm showing up as me and meant sometimes I remember walking out with a patient of mine whose
daughter had made a suicide attempt she's fine um and he was crying I look at him and I'm like do you
(36:36):
need a hug and he goes yes I'm like I give real hugs like I need I need you to know that I'm not
going to pat you and release your back because yeah so I just held them for like a good 30 seconds
if you've ever given somebody a 30 say it's a long hug you know what he got every single session
for the many years we worked together on a variety of different things a hug and and I would joke
(37:00):
and I would give advice sometimes and I would curse and in allowing myself to show up as myself
imperfect I became a far better therapist my patients made gains faster the gains were solid
I still am into I haven't practiced since 2022 in that space but I'm still in touch with some patients
(37:23):
and they'll still talk about it I get to see the shifts actually one of my patients is now in my
gym which is always a little bit strange initially but you get to look at the changes people make
them I'm like that happened because I was allowed to be myself and in being myself I could be the right
person for the person in front of me if we can allow all women to do that in my space if we can allow
(37:46):
female leaders to do that then we're going to get them to be better leaders better leaders for
everybody makes everyone's life better makes the bottom line better but beyond that it makes the
humans who are under the leadership of this individual happier better healthier just don't win win
yes yes well it was just so wonderful to have you can you let our listeners know where they can
(38:15):
find out a little bit more about you and connect with you further because you've been such a joy to
have on on our show today it's been it's been so much fun thank you so much um two places one I'll be
honest it needs to be updated a little bit would be my website which is noteworthyink.co so
I N C for the Inc and then the other thing is LinkedIn I am I am most prolific oh and I'm on Substack now
(38:43):
under DR W A L L S A Y S. I love writing content so that's my new space to share content
fantastic. I'm so happy that one of the words in our title the bitch brought us together me too this
is fantastic. Thank you, thank you so much and when you finish that work please send it over because I
(39:07):
have so many women I need to share it with and men I have so many good men I need to share it with. Absolutely, anytime.
We may even touch base with you to get some of your feedback and we'll work with us every single day
absolutely anytime fantastic. Thank you so much, thank you and you haven't listened to the Virgin
the Beauty and the Bitch, the bitch bitch bitch yes yeah
(39:28):
Find us, Like us, share us. Come on back. To become a partner in the VBB community we invite you to find
us at virginbeautybitch.com, like us on facebook, instagram and linkedIn, and share us with people who are
defiantly different like you. Until next time thanks for listening
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