November 9, 2025 • 36 mins
Darlene Lancer is an author, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and expert in relationships and codependency. Her bestselling books include Dating, Loving, and Leaving a Narcissist, Conquering Shame and Codependency: 8 Steps to Freeing the True You, and Codependency for Dummies. Each reflects her deep understanding of relationships and codependency recovery. Her newest book, Dating, Loving, and Leaving a Narcissist: Essential Tools for Improving or Leaving Narcissistic and Abusive Relationships, zeroes in on the core issue that causes victims of abuse so much unhappiness.
Darlene’s ability as an emotional intuitive enables her to identify problems at their source and to draw on her extensive personal and professional experience to find solutions. With over 30 years of providing self-esteem and codependency counseling, Darlene has helped countless women and men recover from codependency and trauma. For her, change requires awareness, courage, action, and being supported to take productive risks when ready. Her helping clients overcome self-defeating beliefs and behaviors enables them to be more self-expressive and enjoy greater life satisfaction.
Darlene’s ability as an emotional intuitive enables her to identify problems at their source and to draw on her extensive personal and professional experience to find solutions. With over 30 years of providing self-esteem and codependency counseling, Darlene has helped countless women and men recover from codependency and trauma. For her, change requires awareness, courage, action, and being supported to take productive risks when ready. Her helping clients overcome self-defeating beliefs and behaviors enables them to be more self-expressive and enjoy greater life satisfaction.
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(00:00):
Virgin, Beauty, Bitch, Podcast, Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share
(00:09):
unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different, your hosts, Christopher
and Heather.
Let's talk, shall we?
If a close friend were to say that you have a code dependency issue or a relationship
addiction, how would you respond to that?
(00:32):
Would you tell them where to go and how long to stay there or would you seek out someone
like our guest who has over 30 years of experience as a code dependency expert?
We welcome marriage and family therapist, darling Lancer, to Virgin Beauty Bitch.
Thank you very much.
I've had my own recovery and struggles with code dependency.
(00:53):
When I first heard about it, I was like a shame to think that I was codependent.
So that was in the 70s.
Codependency anonymous was formed in the 70s.
I got my training wheels in Eleanor, which was a program for family members of alcoholics,
(01:16):
loved ones in alcoholics.
Historically, they were called co-alcoholics and then they found that the symptoms preceded
the marriage to an alcoholic and started in the family.
And little by little, they discovered code dependency.
(01:37):
To its own thing, some people call it a disease and when I wrote code dependency for dummies
back in 2011, it actually had an argument with the editor because it was hazeln because
he thought code dependence was something separate from addicts.
(01:59):
And I said, no, addicts are codependent too.
And he said, they can't be codependent because they're in relationships with codependence.
He didn't really understand and usually codependence gravitate towards other codependence.
So some people say to me, my wife or my husband is so codependent, what should I do?
(02:21):
They don't see their own codependency because it can manifest differently with different
people.
In fact, I'm probably in the minority that thinks narcissists are codependent too.
But if you look at the symptoms and in my most recent book, Dating, Loving and Leaving
and Narcissists, I have a whole chapter comparing codependence and narcissists and how the key symptoms
(02:47):
are the same or the traits, I should say, but the behavior, the symptomatic behavior may
be the opposite.
So for instance, codependents have dysfunctional boundaries.
Well, they don't have boundaries around themselves.
They can't say no to people.
(03:09):
They focus on someone else.
They don't really see themselves.
Their life revolves around other people.
That's part of my definition is your thinking and behavior revolve around someone else.
Or some other thing, which would include a substance, a process like sex addiction or gambling.
The narcissist, on the other hand, then they'll see other people.
(03:33):
Everyone is a projection of themselves.
So they both have dysfunctional boundaries, but they manifest differently.
Similarly, dysfunctional communication.
So narcissists will push people away with their aggression and that's how they feel safe.
And codependents want to pull people in.
And that's how they feel safe.
(03:54):
So they avoid confrontation.
They're passive.
They can't say no.
As I said, they go along to get along.
The narcissist wants to get ahead.
They want to put themselves first.
But it works well with a codependent because they put other people first.
So for a while, the attraction works until finally could take 20 years for some of my clients.
(04:22):
They realize their needs aren't getting met.
But keep trying harder.
That's what they're trained to do.
Give more, try more, please more, and then I'll get the love.
Because then I'll feel lovable.
Well, underneath his shame, there applies to both.
The narcissist doesn't feel lovable.
They want to take, take, take, and get admired by other people and be given to and sacrifice
(04:46):
for and that makes them compensate for their shame inside.
They both have dysfunctional self-esteem.
One is inflated and one is devalued themselves.
So there's like opposites, but the problem is similar in both.
So where does this all start?
I mean, we've identified now these two tracks of problematic behavior.
(05:12):
Where do they begin?
The causes.
Yeah.
How do we get into these identities?
How do we get into that?
One or the other?
It's, it's, it's codependence is learned behavior.
It starts in childhood.
So it's generational.
So if you had codependent or addicted parents or something like that, your parents
(05:35):
are hurting and yourself is going to be shaped by that and then that your behavior, your
attitudes transfer to your child.
So if you have low self-esteem or whatever reason from your parents, then your low self-esteem
gets transmitted in your behavior.
(05:56):
Low self-esteem becomes evident in the way you communicate.
If you go to a job interview, you reveal yourself a thing by the way you talk.
Do you answer questions?
Are you evasive?
Are you direct?
Do you make eye contact?
Do you speak with confidence?
Are you different or reserved or trying to please and it being evasive?
(06:18):
Things like that.
So the parent will be that way.
They won't have good boundaries and then it's only gets transferred down.
And a lot of parents have children.
This is maybe more from the mother's point of view to boost their own self-esteem.
Someone will need me.
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They want to live through their children.
You become famous than I'll feel that I could do a good job.
Their parenting becomes their reason for living and it's about taking care of someone else
and living through someone else.
And I had one client who said, "Well, she felt better when she had a child to focus on."
(07:03):
Without that, she felt lost and depressed because underneath is emptiness.
This goes for a narcissist too.
If they're not, and then control is a common symptom.
Her both.
So it looks a little different.
A narcissist might give orders and tell you what to do and how to dress and a codependent
(07:24):
may be giving you advice and wanting to help you and manage you and control that way and
control their own feelings.
So a parent might feel, in this particular person, felt more valued, more valuable if they
had a child to take care of.
And without that, they felt lost.
(07:45):
So a lot of times with a codependent leaves a relationship, they just feel lost.
And by the way, that's one of the reasons they feel more alive with someone who is very
melodramatic.
Someone who has a lot of drama.
Someone with a personality disorder, a narcissist, a borderline, a hysteria personality or just
(08:06):
a lot of conflict and addict, a lot of turmoil and conflict in the relationship.
And then they have something to figure out and work out and work on.
They want to work on the relationship all the time.
If a relationship is good, it works.
You don't have to keep fixing it.
You have to communicate.
You have to resolve the needs and conflicting opinions and things, but you're able to work
(08:32):
that out.
So how do you get into it?
So I start to say, if the mother is preoccupied with her own depression or problems or marital
conflict, things like that.
She can't really attune to the child.
If you can't connect with yourself, it's hard to connect with other people.
(08:54):
So codependents aren't really connected to themselves.
They don't know words usually how to describe their feelings.
A parent needs to teach that to a child.
Oh, you're sad and then you mirror the child's feelings.
So a lot of codependents, erasant families, where it's not okay to be sad or be "negative"
(09:17):
to have negative feelings or to be angry.
So that's shaming.
So codependency and shame, I say they co-emerge.
And codependents have shame and shame is the cause.
So I don't know where it begins or ends, but it derives from the parenting and the way you
(09:42):
treated it.
Every person I wrote a book, Conquerate, Shame and codependency, because it's the core issue.
Every child needs to feel that both parents want a relationship with them, that are interested
in them for who they are.
Not because they get good grades or beautiful or thin or athletic.
(10:02):
And that they make time and they're listening.
They're attuning to you.
They're paying attention.
It's not enough to give you money and buy things or say I love you, but not listen to you,
or invalidate your feelings or your interests or your needs.
So that causes shame, it's shame bonding.
What would be your recommendations to our listeners that are hearing, you know, that perhaps
(10:28):
with one or both parents, that those needs were not met and that the parent either used
gifts or money or just outright didn't pay attention to who they were as an individual.
What do you feel are some of the stepping stones to cultivating that self-value and recognizing
(10:52):
your own codependency that stems out of that?
That is a very important crucial question.
And for instance, a lot of programs and even therapists don't talk about shame.
So it's one of the worst feelings.
You feel like you're an alien, like you don't belong.
(11:14):
You're unlovable at the bottom of that.
You might think, "I'm not smart enough.
I don't make enough money.
I don't have a good enough figure."
If you get dive down deeper, it's basically a client, as I said, of this to me recently.
She walks into her room.
She has a feeling that people aren't going to like her.
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She goes to parties, she's in the class.
There's this feeling that I'm just not likable or lovable.
If people really get to know me.
So you can't change the past, but you can't go back and read, but you can't get repair
it isn't therapy, but ultimately you have to repair yourself.
So the first thing I always say is you have to come out of denial and you can't change
(12:01):
things that are unconscious if you don't know about it.
So start writing down all your negative self-talk.
The first e-book that I wrote was 10 steps to self-esteem and now it's also a webinar
how to raise yourself a scene.
And that's the first step.
So every day, and include the sheds, like, oh, I shouldn't have said that.
(12:25):
I shouldn't have been talking about myself.
I shouldn't spend so much time on the phone, but you can't get off with people or your
embarrassed talking about yourself.
Or I didn't do that well enough.
That was stupid.
Why did I make that mistake?
All this negative self-talk.
And that's where you're shaming yourself.
(12:47):
So your parents could be dead, but you're continuing with a legacy every day.
And it's depressing.
And you talk to yourself out of things.
Oh, I would like to go back to school and get this degree, but you think it's too late.
It costs too much.
I haven't studied in a long time.
I won't do well.
Whatever.
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You just talk to yourself out of your dreams and things you want to do.
And that's part of that.
Not encouraging yourself, not supporting yourself.
And I'd say, go to Codependence Anonymous, get a therapist, get a sponsor in the meeting,
do the exercises in my books.
These are things you can change.
(13:29):
Self-esteem is learned.
Codependence is learned.
And you can learn healthy self-esteem.
You can raise yourself a steam by challenging yourself, learning more skills, how you talk
to yourself.
Then the next step, and by the way, these problems, all-orized outage denial, which is another
(13:49):
symptom.
Denial of needs, denial of feelings, denial of wants, you're focused on what your partner wants,
what your child wants.
You don't think about your own needs.
You become needless.
The narcissist thinks only of their needs.
They're entitled to entitled.
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And the Codependence feels unentitled.
They need to be more narcissistic.
But it's easier for Codependence to change.
Narcissism is a personality disorder.
And there's genetic component too, not just behavioral.
So a Codependence can change and ask yourself, this is a really hard question for Codependence.
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I'm feeling the lung right now, or I'm feeling down or in the thought of what do I need.
And it may take a while to figure that out.
Do I need to talk to someone?
Do I need to rest?
Do I need inspiration?
Do I need to eat something?
Do I need to sit a boundary with someone?
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Do I need to ask for help or ask for something?
A lot of Codependence don't want to ask for help.
They're used to having to take care of their own selves because of their parents not attuning
to their needs or their feelings.
So asking yourself those questions, Codependency for dummies takes you through.
(15:16):
It's organized by the healing program to get familiar with yourself, to raise yourself
with steam.
And then the hardest thing I think is learning to love yourself.
Self-esteem is how you think about yourself.
Loving yourself is more of a feeling.
And for a lot of people, feels incomprehensible.
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I know what it's like to love another person, and I don't know what it's like to love myself.
And what is love?
It's there's, you have to know the person.
You have to get to know yourself.
You have to listen.
When think of what you do to the person you love, you listen to them, you empathize with
them.
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You offer help, you give care.
You try to understand them.
Well, apply that all to yourself with tenderness.
So most Codependence didn't get a lot of nurturing.
They may have had a parent that didn't, and doesn't, didn't know how to nurture.
So learning how to nurture yourself, I mean, is more than bubble-baths.
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It's really paying attention to your wants and needs and things like that.
So typically a Codependent, if they say, well, I'm going to go to the gym today, for instance,
I'm going to take care of my body.
And then someone calls and they say, oh, I really need to talk about this problem.
And then there's so more.
They just, oh, this person needs me.
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I'm not going to go to the gym.
So they will, they don't keep appointments, commitments with themselves.
It's interesting because if a lot of these conditions begin in your youth, when you really
do not know anything about yourself or the world around you, how is it you can see this
(17:06):
as a problem or an issue?
Of course, you may have relationships, after relationships, after relationships, which are
hurtful and painful.
You may even think that's normal because you have no training in your life.
You're right.
(17:27):
And there's something in particular that I have realized just in the last few years is that
and that pertains to this generally, not all Codependents, but I would say the majority
of them have never felt safe.
In their family, they didn't feel safe.
Maybe the parents argued a lot.
Maybe there was addiction.
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Maybe they had an angry or neglectful parent.
So they don't really know what it's like to feel safe.
So they date people and someone is exciting to them.
They don't realize that they may have anxiety.
In fact, they go out with someone with a secure, we talk about attachment style and who's
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calm, reliable person.
They think, oh, they're boring.
So they crave that excitement that's also to feel alive because of all of the emptiness
inside.
They crave melodrama and excitement and making up and breaking up and fighting and then
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all of that.
Or does she love me?
Does she love me?
You know, that.
And then they have sex and that is great and it's high and low.
They end up committing to that person in the romance stage.
They get to know them and then they find out, oh, they're not anything like they were
(18:54):
in the beginning and then they try to change them back into their ideal of who was.
So they don't really know what it's like to be safe in a stable relationship.
What we call a secure attachment.
They're used to an insecure attachment.
The mother that's sometimes loving and sometimes is dismissive or scolding or sometimes is there
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and sometimes is, you know, demeaning you or saying with a father.
So they become hyper vigilant and when they're dating, they're getting into a relationship,
they confuse anxiety and excitement.
They think it's chemistry.
You know, realize.
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They think, oh, it's a butterfly.
They don't realize, I don't feel safe with this person.
I don't know if he's going to call me again.
You know, I don't know if we're really in a relationship or we're just dating or we
committed, you know, and that just goes on and on.
And even after they're married, you know, is he really there for me?
Is he making time for me or her?
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It goes with men too.
So you don't know.
But gradually as you recover, your friends will change.
When you start to get more connected to yourself, you then pay attention to how you feel.
Oh, this person was dismissive.
This person ignored my boundary.
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You noticed those things, which you wouldn't notice in the beginning because you're so motivated
to please and be liked and be loved.
So you just go along.
But when you have a little more recovery, you say, well, wait a minute, this person just
ignored me.
I said, I don't like that.
And then they just went ahead and did it anyway.
And that's not safe.
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That's disrespectful.
Or they're only talking about themselves.
So in the beginning, you would just be a good listener and think, he's, he or she's like
wonderful.
You just idealize them.
But then when you start to have more self-worth, you think, or they even getting to know
me, do they think my needs are important?
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They, I always have to adjust to their time table, things revolve around them.
So as you build yourself, you give yourself more worth.
You have more value to yourself.
And people will treat you the way you teach them.
That is honestly very, very helpful and so well articulated.
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And I think what, touching back on what you had mentioned before on writing down these
sheds or the things I can't do or didn't get done or, I don't know, the perpetual, sometimes
it isn't things that your parents have necessarily said, but that a concept of your worth has been
(21:51):
embedded in your mind.
So the sheds continue on.
What have you found to be helpful with your clients to write down those pieces of self-talk
and try to transition like that thinking?
Like I know that people talk a lot about affirmations.
So trying to get to the core root of why you feel these things that you're kind of negatively
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saying in your mind and try to address that wound and understand it and either through
different mechanisms, like paint a different picture about yourself and then replace them,
you know, if and when genuine to bring in an affirmation that helps to heal that wound,
but I'd be so interested to hear like what you found to be helpful as transitioning from
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that list of what you are not doing or not capable of or the negative self-talk into like
a different narrative in your mind.
That's why there's 10 steps.
10 steps is self-esteem and in my book, Conquering Shame, I went through to the book or self-help
exercises.
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So first step is hearing them voice and then you have to identify as the critic and it's
true, a lot of times parents didn't say those things, but you inferred that if you were perfect
or you achieved or you behaved to some certain way, then you'd get praised.
So it's maybe how you survived.
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Maybe if I don't get angry or if I get a's or whatever, then I see my brother or sister
is getting it, then I'll get the attention.
So it could be an inference and then you tell yourself that to be safe or to get love.
So identifying the voice and then sometimes it's so prevalent that it's taken over a person's
(23:53):
whole personality.
So what you want to do is start to become a witness of it.
Oh, it's just that voice in my head and you might give it a name.
So people come up with very creative names or maybe it reminds you of a parent or a sibling.
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Oh, so that's my mother talking or my father or my sister or the critic or whatever.
And then other steps include dialogue with it.
So there's the where part of you and with your non-dominant hand, your left hand usually,
you can dialogue.
Find out what was the purpose of that?
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What might be like I said to keep you safe or for instance, before you're going on
a first date with someone, you might shame yourself, "Oh, you can't fit into your nice dress
and you're too fat and look at your hair, looks terrible, whatever."
So the purpose might be not just to shame you but to try to encourage you to look better
(25:00):
to be loved, to get the prize, to get the guy or the girl on the date.
But then you realize is that healthy?
No.
It makes you insecure.
So when you go out, you're probably going to behave in a way that's going to not just your
looks but your behavior will maybe rule the date because you're insecure.
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Because now you've made yourself, you've lowered yourself a steam and you made yourself
more anxious.
So you look at the motive and I have a lot of energy questions which you're like, webinar
in my book to find out, and you say, "Is this working?"
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And then another aspect of it is getting a connection, connecting with the part of me that
hears that voice, the inner child, who is now being shame and now wants to go run and
hide and the corner doesn't even want to go out.
It's afraid to meet people.
It's afraid to date, things like that.
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So is afraid to open up or reveal which could make you more attractive to people.
To be...
Here's another example.
You're afraid to be spontaneous because you're always editing what you say or do.
Well, people who are spontaneous are usually more attractive to other people.
That's someone who's watching every word that they say.
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Because of caution, because they don't want to make a mistake.
They don't want to be just likes or rejected.
So you get to the motives and you get a touch with the part of you that is listening to
all this and how painful it is.
And then later steps, it's like, "Then you become from a critic to a coach."
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And I cite a coach, or a candidate with me, from Essie.
He was famous and he devoted himself to coaching in a way that was going to be supportive because
most football coaches were always degrading and abusing the players.
And he just made up his mind.
He's not going to do that.
And he won season over season.
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Person fumbled the ball or something.
So it will go back in there and you know, learn from your mistake.
Next time you won't do that.
I wanted to ask this side question.
How much of the codependency is pivoted on gender?
And I look at the, obviously, the historic way that gender has put men and women in places
(27:32):
of codependency, etc.
Is there a relationship to our gender in this as well?
Well, probably.
Culturally, there's no way to, you know, get statistics on it.
Also women are more prone to come to therapy than men.
But I have, you know, maybe 40% of my clients are male.
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I wrote a blog on, you know, the codependent male dilemma because they're also trained to
ignore their feelings and their needs and be a provider and be, you know, a good boy
or a good, a nice man, a provider and just serve the woman, you know, provide and ignore
(28:21):
themselves and their needs.
So men become codependent too.
It may look a little different because they're focused on their career generally, but underneath
it could be the same.
And look at this way.
There's probably more male addicts, I don't know, statistically, but in the past, they're
(28:42):
have them, more male alcoholics, etc.
And underneath that is codependency.
Addiction, if you look at all the gamblers and the drug addicts and sex addicts and
alcoholics, you know, the majority of them are going to be male and they're trying to
get their needs met instead of a woman might look to a man, to rescue her and a man's
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going to look to that drug or process to take care of his pain is self-medicating because
of the damage in childhood, you know, to his self or self-esteem and looking outside of
himself.
It's basically a problem of the self.
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So instead of accessing your internal resources, you're looking at something outside of yourself
to fix you or there's a relationship, a drug, food, something like that.
But there is a cultural aspect of women being traditionally, not in the workforce, they're
more passive and, you know, in some religions, the man is the head of the house and the woman
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was trained to go along and not be assertive, she learned to be indirect together needs met
in an indirect way.
So there's that cultural aspect.
It affects men, this is much as women.
So are there any well-adjusted human beings on the planet earth?
(30:19):
Well it's interesting because another aspect of your question is that, or earlier question,
is that the idea of cotapenities is very cultural.
So I have clients whose parents were from Latin America, from the Middle East, from Asia,
and those are collectivist cultures.
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And the family is more important and the family's reputation, in particular, is more important
than the individual.
So they come over here and then the children are exposed to the American way of life and
values and they're trying to break away from their family and be independent, maybe
(31:04):
very outside of their ethnicity or religion, have their own, spend more time with their
friends and with their family and the family tries to, they all pull together and like shame
and try to control the native American to follow the cultural values that the parents have.
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They say, like you should do all this for the family.
You're a bad son, you're a bad daughter, you're not putting your family first.
So it causes a lot of conflict.
But in those other cultures, they'd be well-adjusted.
So what we call cotapenit is a cultural point of view.
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It's a Western, Occidental, Western idea versus Asia and Latin America.
That's interesting because if I look at it from the way you're saying it, and it's
clicked in the mind, cotapendency in those cultures is a strength.
cotapendency in our culture is a weakness.
Right.
Well, you could say that a lot about a lot of different things, cultural.
(32:14):
We love to ask our guests and I appreciate your responses around cotapendency and gender
foundations and also different cultural foundations.
I'm wondering for the purposes of our show, we like to ask our guests, what does feminine
mean to you?
It's interesting.
Well, I think, of course I'm a product of my culture too.
(32:41):
So I think the general definition and I'm influenced by that too, stands from biology.
So I think if feminine is being soft, nurturing, empathetic, we think of mothering, but also
creative and intuitive and the masculine is more assertive and goal oriented.
(33:06):
By the way, we need both aspects.
So productive, I guess, men, both men and women can be creative, but that's how I see it also.
So Sherry, your work, your books, so what people need to know about you, how they may get
in contact with you if they want to work with you directly.
The floor is yours.
Oh, thank you.
(33:27):
Okay.
I'm a coach internationally and my website, whatiscodependency.com has all the information on my services
page and then I have a page for resources where all my books and there's some free meditations
on there and there's also webinars and a self love meditation that people can listen to.
(33:53):
And if you forget that, usually you'll look at my name, darlinglancer.com.
And I'm on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest and YouTube.
So I have a lot of information freely available to the public and if anyone wants to get a list
(34:15):
of tips on self-love, they can email me at info@darlenelancer.com.
And my ebooks and paperbacks are available online stores like Amazon, Barnes and Noble and
paperbacks are available in stores and online and brick and mortar.
(34:37):
But on my website I have some audio files and webinars that are only on my website.
Fantastic.
It feels like we've just dipped our toe into a pool of just human condition that is very,
very difficult to actually pull apart because every individual has their own version of
(35:00):
codependency that they would have to look at themselves.
So I would definitely recommend either reading your books or getting in touch with you or
getting in touch with another counselor to help go through this because like we said,
it is a big blind spot.
If this is how you grew up, if this is how you were conditioned as a child, this is not something
(35:21):
you see when you look in the mirror.
So definitely this conversation could go on for a long time and still not cover the breath
of what this is all about.
We cannot thank you enough though for laying a foundation and giving us some direction as
to how we can recognize it and then steps we can take to go past it.
(35:43):
So we cannot thank you enough, Darleen, for taking the time to share your wisdom with us
on this topic.
Oh, thank you for asking me and helping me educate people, which is what I want to do.
It's been an absolute delight to have you.
Thank you for everything that you've brought to this and you know, excited to check out
(36:06):
your website to dive in more.
So thanks for joining us.
Do you have been listening to the Virgin, the beauty and the bitch.
Find us like us, share us.
Let us know what you thought and think about this conversation.
We'd love to hear from you as well.
And if you have anything to ask us, please send them our way.
(36:30):
Thank you so much for listening.
To become a partner in the BBB community, we invite you to find us at virginbeautybitch.com.
Click us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn and share us with people who are defiantly different
like you.
(36:51):
Until next time, thanks for listening.
[Music]
Virgin, Beauty, Bitch, Podcast, Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share
(00:09):
unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different, your hosts, Christopher
and Heather.
Let's talk, shall we?
If a close friend were to say that you have a code dependency issue or a relationship
addiction, how would you respond to that?
(00:32):
Would you tell them where to go and how long to stay there or would you seek out someone
like our guest who has over 30 years of experience as a code dependency expert?
We welcome marriage and family therapist, darling Lancer, to Virgin Beauty Bitch.
Thank you very much.
I've had my own recovery and struggles with code dependency.
(00:53):
When I first heard about it, I was like a shame to think that I was codependent.
So that was in the 70s.
Codependency anonymous was formed in the 70s.
I got my training wheels in Eleanor, which was a program for family members of alcoholics,
(01:16):
loved ones in alcoholics.
Historically, they were called co-alcoholics and then they found that the symptoms preceded
the marriage to an alcoholic and started in the family.
And little by little, they discovered code dependency.
(01:37):
To its own thing, some people call it a disease and when I wrote code dependency for dummies
back in 2011, it actually had an argument with the editor because it was hazeln because
he thought code dependence was something separate from addicts.
(01:59):
And I said, no, addicts are codependent too.
And he said, they can't be codependent because they're in relationships with codependence.
He didn't really understand and usually codependence gravitate towards other codependence.
So some people say to me, my wife or my husband is so codependent, what should I do?
(02:21):
They don't see their own codependency because it can manifest differently with different
people.
In fact, I'm probably in the minority that thinks narcissists are codependent too.
But if you look at the symptoms and in my most recent book, Dating, Loving and Leaving
and Narcissists, I have a whole chapter comparing codependence and narcissists and how the key symptoms
(02:47):
are the same or the traits, I should say, but the behavior, the symptomatic behavior may
be the opposite.
So for instance, codependents have dysfunctional boundaries.
Well, they don't have boundaries around themselves.
They can't say no to people.
(03:09):
They focus on someone else.
They don't really see themselves.
Their life revolves around other people.
That's part of my definition is your thinking and behavior revolve around someone else.
Or some other thing, which would include a substance, a process like sex addiction or gambling.
The narcissist, on the other hand, then they'll see other people.
(03:33):
Everyone is a projection of themselves.
So they both have dysfunctional boundaries, but they manifest differently.
Similarly, dysfunctional communication.
So narcissists will push people away with their aggression and that's how they feel safe.
And codependents want to pull people in.
And that's how they feel safe.
(03:54):
So they avoid confrontation.
They're passive.
They can't say no.
As I said, they go along to get along.
The narcissist wants to get ahead.
They want to put themselves first.
But it works well with a codependent because they put other people first.
So for a while, the attraction works until finally could take 20 years for some of my clients.
(04:22):
They realize their needs aren't getting met.
But keep trying harder.
That's what they're trained to do.
Give more, try more, please more, and then I'll get the love.
Because then I'll feel lovable.
Well, underneath his shame, there applies to both.
The narcissist doesn't feel lovable.
They want to take, take, take, and get admired by other people and be given to and sacrifice
(04:46):
for and that makes them compensate for their shame inside.
They both have dysfunctional self-esteem.
One is inflated and one is devalued themselves.
So there's like opposites, but the problem is similar in both.
So where does this all start?
I mean, we've identified now these two tracks of problematic behavior.
(05:12):
Where do they begin?
The causes.
Yeah.
How do we get into these identities?
How do we get into that?
One or the other?
It's, it's, it's codependence is learned behavior.
It starts in childhood.
So it's generational.
So if you had codependent or addicted parents or something like that, your parents
(05:35):
are hurting and yourself is going to be shaped by that and then that your behavior, your
attitudes transfer to your child.
So if you have low self-esteem or whatever reason from your parents, then your low self-esteem
gets transmitted in your behavior.
(05:56):
Low self-esteem becomes evident in the way you communicate.
If you go to a job interview, you reveal yourself a thing by the way you talk.
Do you answer questions?
Are you evasive?
Are you direct?
Do you make eye contact?
Do you speak with confidence?
Are you different or reserved or trying to please and it being evasive?
(06:18):
Things like that.
So the parent will be that way.
They won't have good boundaries and then it's only gets transferred down.
And a lot of parents have children.
This is maybe more from the mother's point of view to boost their own self-esteem.
Someone will need me.
(06:39):
They want to live through their children.
You become famous than I'll feel that I could do a good job.
Their parenting becomes their reason for living and it's about taking care of someone else
and living through someone else.
And I had one client who said, "Well, she felt better when she had a child to focus on."
(07:03):
Without that, she felt lost and depressed because underneath is emptiness.
This goes for a narcissist too.
If they're not, and then control is a common symptom.
Her both.
So it looks a little different.
A narcissist might give orders and tell you what to do and how to dress and a codependent
(07:24):
may be giving you advice and wanting to help you and manage you and control that way and
control their own feelings.
So a parent might feel, in this particular person, felt more valued, more valuable if they
had a child to take care of.
And without that, they felt lost.
(07:45):
So a lot of times with a codependent leaves a relationship, they just feel lost.
And by the way, that's one of the reasons they feel more alive with someone who is very
melodramatic.
Someone who has a lot of drama.
Someone with a personality disorder, a narcissist, a borderline, a hysteria personality or just
(08:06):
a lot of conflict and addict, a lot of turmoil and conflict in the relationship.
And then they have something to figure out and work out and work on.
They want to work on the relationship all the time.
If a relationship is good, it works.
You don't have to keep fixing it.
You have to communicate.
You have to resolve the needs and conflicting opinions and things, but you're able to work
(08:32):
that out.
So how do you get into it?
So I start to say, if the mother is preoccupied with her own depression or problems or marital
conflict, things like that.
She can't really attune to the child.
If you can't connect with yourself, it's hard to connect with other people.
(08:54):
So codependents aren't really connected to themselves.
They don't know words usually how to describe their feelings.
A parent needs to teach that to a child.
Oh, you're sad and then you mirror the child's feelings.
So a lot of codependents, erasant families, where it's not okay to be sad or be "negative"
(09:17):
to have negative feelings or to be angry.
So that's shaming.
So codependency and shame, I say they co-emerge.
And codependents have shame and shame is the cause.
So I don't know where it begins or ends, but it derives from the parenting and the way you
(09:42):
treated it.
Every person I wrote a book, Conquerate, Shame and codependency, because it's the core issue.
Every child needs to feel that both parents want a relationship with them, that are interested
in them for who they are.
Not because they get good grades or beautiful or thin or athletic.
(10:02):
And that they make time and they're listening.
They're attuning to you.
They're paying attention.
It's not enough to give you money and buy things or say I love you, but not listen to you,
or invalidate your feelings or your interests or your needs.
So that causes shame, it's shame bonding.
What would be your recommendations to our listeners that are hearing, you know, that perhaps
(10:28):
with one or both parents, that those needs were not met and that the parent either used
gifts or money or just outright didn't pay attention to who they were as an individual.
What do you feel are some of the stepping stones to cultivating that self-value and recognizing
(10:52):
your own codependency that stems out of that?
That is a very important crucial question.
And for instance, a lot of programs and even therapists don't talk about shame.
So it's one of the worst feelings.
You feel like you're an alien, like you don't belong.
(11:14):
You're unlovable at the bottom of that.
You might think, "I'm not smart enough.
I don't make enough money.
I don't have a good enough figure."
If you get dive down deeper, it's basically a client, as I said, of this to me recently.
She walks into her room.
She has a feeling that people aren't going to like her.
(11:35):
She goes to parties, she's in the class.
There's this feeling that I'm just not likable or lovable.
If people really get to know me.
So you can't change the past, but you can't go back and read, but you can't get repair
it isn't therapy, but ultimately you have to repair yourself.
So the first thing I always say is you have to come out of denial and you can't change
(12:01):
things that are unconscious if you don't know about it.
So start writing down all your negative self-talk.
The first e-book that I wrote was 10 steps to self-esteem and now it's also a webinar
how to raise yourself a scene.
And that's the first step.
So every day, and include the sheds, like, oh, I shouldn't have said that.
(12:25):
I shouldn't have been talking about myself.
I shouldn't spend so much time on the phone, but you can't get off with people or your
embarrassed talking about yourself.
Or I didn't do that well enough.
That was stupid.
Why did I make that mistake?
All this negative self-talk.
And that's where you're shaming yourself.
(12:47):
So your parents could be dead, but you're continuing with a legacy every day.
And it's depressing.
And you talk to yourself out of things.
Oh, I would like to go back to school and get this degree, but you think it's too late.
It costs too much.
I haven't studied in a long time.
I won't do well.
Whatever.
(13:08):
You just talk to yourself out of your dreams and things you want to do.
And that's part of that.
Not encouraging yourself, not supporting yourself.
And I'd say, go to Codependence Anonymous, get a therapist, get a sponsor in the meeting,
do the exercises in my books.
These are things you can change.
(13:29):
Self-esteem is learned.
Codependence is learned.
And you can learn healthy self-esteem.
You can raise yourself a steam by challenging yourself, learning more skills, how you talk
to yourself.
Then the next step, and by the way, these problems, all-orized outage denial, which is another
(13:49):
symptom.
Denial of needs, denial of feelings, denial of wants, you're focused on what your partner wants,
what your child wants.
You don't think about your own needs.
You become needless.
The narcissist thinks only of their needs.
They're entitled to entitled.
(14:09):
And the Codependence feels unentitled.
They need to be more narcissistic.
But it's easier for Codependence to change.
Narcissism is a personality disorder.
And there's genetic component too, not just behavioral.
So a Codependence can change and ask yourself, this is a really hard question for Codependence.
(14:33):
I'm feeling the lung right now, or I'm feeling down or in the thought of what do I need.
And it may take a while to figure that out.
Do I need to talk to someone?
Do I need to rest?
Do I need inspiration?
Do I need to eat something?
Do I need to sit a boundary with someone?
(14:54):
Do I need to ask for help or ask for something?
A lot of Codependence don't want to ask for help.
They're used to having to take care of their own selves because of their parents not attuning
to their needs or their feelings.
So asking yourself those questions, Codependency for dummies takes you through.
(15:16):
It's organized by the healing program to get familiar with yourself, to raise yourself
with steam.
And then the hardest thing I think is learning to love yourself.
Self-esteem is how you think about yourself.
Loving yourself is more of a feeling.
And for a lot of people, feels incomprehensible.
(15:39):
I know what it's like to love another person, and I don't know what it's like to love myself.
And what is love?
It's there's, you have to know the person.
You have to get to know yourself.
You have to listen.
When think of what you do to the person you love, you listen to them, you empathize with
them.
(16:00):
You offer help, you give care.
You try to understand them.
Well, apply that all to yourself with tenderness.
So most Codependence didn't get a lot of nurturing.
They may have had a parent that didn't, and doesn't, didn't know how to nurture.
So learning how to nurture yourself, I mean, is more than bubble-baths.
(16:20):
It's really paying attention to your wants and needs and things like that.
So typically a Codependent, if they say, well, I'm going to go to the gym today, for instance,
I'm going to take care of my body.
And then someone calls and they say, oh, I really need to talk about this problem.
And then there's so more.
They just, oh, this person needs me.
(16:42):
I'm not going to go to the gym.
So they will, they don't keep appointments, commitments with themselves.
It's interesting because if a lot of these conditions begin in your youth, when you really
do not know anything about yourself or the world around you, how is it you can see this
(17:06):
as a problem or an issue?
Of course, you may have relationships, after relationships, after relationships, which are
hurtful and painful.
You may even think that's normal because you have no training in your life.
You're right.
(17:27):
And there's something in particular that I have realized just in the last few years is that
and that pertains to this generally, not all Codependents, but I would say the majority
of them have never felt safe.
In their family, they didn't feel safe.
Maybe the parents argued a lot.
Maybe there was addiction.
(17:47):
Maybe they had an angry or neglectful parent.
So they don't really know what it's like to feel safe.
So they date people and someone is exciting to them.
They don't realize that they may have anxiety.
In fact, they go out with someone with a secure, we talk about attachment style and who's
(18:13):
calm, reliable person.
They think, oh, they're boring.
So they crave that excitement that's also to feel alive because of all of the emptiness
inside.
They crave melodrama and excitement and making up and breaking up and fighting and then
(18:33):
all of that.
Or does she love me?
Does she love me?
You know, that.
And then they have sex and that is great and it's high and low.
They end up committing to that person in the romance stage.
They get to know them and then they find out, oh, they're not anything like they were
(18:54):
in the beginning and then they try to change them back into their ideal of who was.
So they don't really know what it's like to be safe in a stable relationship.
What we call a secure attachment.
They're used to an insecure attachment.
The mother that's sometimes loving and sometimes is dismissive or scolding or sometimes is there
(19:18):
and sometimes is, you know, demeaning you or saying with a father.
So they become hyper vigilant and when they're dating, they're getting into a relationship,
they confuse anxiety and excitement.
They think it's chemistry.
You know, realize.
(19:38):
They think, oh, it's a butterfly.
They don't realize, I don't feel safe with this person.
I don't know if he's going to call me again.
You know, I don't know if we're really in a relationship or we're just dating or we
committed, you know, and that just goes on and on.
And even after they're married, you know, is he really there for me?
Is he making time for me or her?
(20:01):
It goes with men too.
So you don't know.
But gradually as you recover, your friends will change.
When you start to get more connected to yourself, you then pay attention to how you feel.
Oh, this person was dismissive.
This person ignored my boundary.
(20:24):
You noticed those things, which you wouldn't notice in the beginning because you're so motivated
to please and be liked and be loved.
So you just go along.
But when you have a little more recovery, you say, well, wait a minute, this person just
ignored me.
I said, I don't like that.
And then they just went ahead and did it anyway.
And that's not safe.
(20:45):
That's disrespectful.
Or they're only talking about themselves.
So in the beginning, you would just be a good listener and think, he's, he or she's like
wonderful.
You just idealize them.
But then when you start to have more self-worth, you think, or they even getting to know
me, do they think my needs are important?
(21:06):
They, I always have to adjust to their time table, things revolve around them.
So as you build yourself, you give yourself more worth.
You have more value to yourself.
And people will treat you the way you teach them.
That is honestly very, very helpful and so well articulated.
(21:30):
And I think what, touching back on what you had mentioned before on writing down these
sheds or the things I can't do or didn't get done or, I don't know, the perpetual, sometimes
it isn't things that your parents have necessarily said, but that a concept of your worth has been
(21:51):
embedded in your mind.
So the sheds continue on.
What have you found to be helpful with your clients to write down those pieces of self-talk
and try to transition like that thinking?
Like I know that people talk a lot about affirmations.
So trying to get to the core root of why you feel these things that you're kind of negatively
(22:16):
saying in your mind and try to address that wound and understand it and either through
different mechanisms, like paint a different picture about yourself and then replace them,
you know, if and when genuine to bring in an affirmation that helps to heal that wound,
but I'd be so interested to hear like what you found to be helpful as transitioning from
(22:41):
that list of what you are not doing or not capable of or the negative self-talk into like
a different narrative in your mind.
That's why there's 10 steps.
10 steps is self-esteem and in my book, Conquering Shame, I went through to the book or self-help
exercises.
(23:01):
So first step is hearing them voice and then you have to identify as the critic and it's
true, a lot of times parents didn't say those things, but you inferred that if you were perfect
or you achieved or you behaved to some certain way, then you'd get praised.
So it's maybe how you survived.
(23:23):
Maybe if I don't get angry or if I get a's or whatever, then I see my brother or sister
is getting it, then I'll get the attention.
So it could be an inference and then you tell yourself that to be safe or to get love.
So identifying the voice and then sometimes it's so prevalent that it's taken over a person's
(23:53):
whole personality.
So what you want to do is start to become a witness of it.
Oh, it's just that voice in my head and you might give it a name.
So people come up with very creative names or maybe it reminds you of a parent or a sibling.
(24:13):
Oh, so that's my mother talking or my father or my sister or the critic or whatever.
And then other steps include dialogue with it.
So there's the where part of you and with your non-dominant hand, your left hand usually,
you can dialogue.
Find out what was the purpose of that?
(24:34):
What might be like I said to keep you safe or for instance, before you're going on
a first date with someone, you might shame yourself, "Oh, you can't fit into your nice dress
and you're too fat and look at your hair, looks terrible, whatever."
So the purpose might be not just to shame you but to try to encourage you to look better
(25:00):
to be loved, to get the prize, to get the guy or the girl on the date.
But then you realize is that healthy?
No.
It makes you insecure.
So when you go out, you're probably going to behave in a way that's going to not just your
looks but your behavior will maybe rule the date because you're insecure.
(25:22):
Because now you've made yourself, you've lowered yourself a steam and you made yourself
more anxious.
So you look at the motive and I have a lot of energy questions which you're like, webinar
in my book to find out, and you say, "Is this working?"
(25:42):
And then another aspect of it is getting a connection, connecting with the part of me that
hears that voice, the inner child, who is now being shame and now wants to go run and
hide and the corner doesn't even want to go out.
It's afraid to meet people.
It's afraid to date, things like that.
(26:04):
So is afraid to open up or reveal which could make you more attractive to people.
To be...
Here's another example.
You're afraid to be spontaneous because you're always editing what you say or do.
Well, people who are spontaneous are usually more attractive to other people.
That's someone who's watching every word that they say.
(26:25):
Because of caution, because they don't want to make a mistake.
They don't want to be just likes or rejected.
So you get to the motives and you get a touch with the part of you that is listening to
all this and how painful it is.
And then later steps, it's like, "Then you become from a critic to a coach."
(26:46):
And I cite a coach, or a candidate with me, from Essie.
He was famous and he devoted himself to coaching in a way that was going to be supportive because
most football coaches were always degrading and abusing the players.
And he just made up his mind.
He's not going to do that.
And he won season over season.
(27:08):
Person fumbled the ball or something.
So it will go back in there and you know, learn from your mistake.
Next time you won't do that.
I wanted to ask this side question.
How much of the codependency is pivoted on gender?
And I look at the, obviously, the historic way that gender has put men and women in places
(27:32):
of codependency, etc.
Is there a relationship to our gender in this as well?
Well, probably.
Culturally, there's no way to, you know, get statistics on it.
Also women are more prone to come to therapy than men.
But I have, you know, maybe 40% of my clients are male.
(27:56):
I wrote a blog on, you know, the codependent male dilemma because they're also trained to
ignore their feelings and their needs and be a provider and be, you know, a good boy
or a good, a nice man, a provider and just serve the woman, you know, provide and ignore
(28:21):
themselves and their needs.
So men become codependent too.
It may look a little different because they're focused on their career generally, but underneath
it could be the same.
And look at this way.
There's probably more male addicts, I don't know, statistically, but in the past, they're
(28:42):
have them, more male alcoholics, etc.
And underneath that is codependency.
Addiction, if you look at all the gamblers and the drug addicts and sex addicts and
alcoholics, you know, the majority of them are going to be male and they're trying to
get their needs met instead of a woman might look to a man, to rescue her and a man's
(29:08):
going to look to that drug or process to take care of his pain is self-medicating because
of the damage in childhood, you know, to his self or self-esteem and looking outside of
himself.
It's basically a problem of the self.
(29:30):
So instead of accessing your internal resources, you're looking at something outside of yourself
to fix you or there's a relationship, a drug, food, something like that.
But there is a cultural aspect of women being traditionally, not in the workforce, they're
more passive and, you know, in some religions, the man is the head of the house and the woman
(29:58):
was trained to go along and not be assertive, she learned to be indirect together needs met
in an indirect way.
So there's that cultural aspect.
It affects men, this is much as women.
So are there any well-adjusted human beings on the planet earth?
(30:19):
Well it's interesting because another aspect of your question is that, or earlier question,
is that the idea of cotapenities is very cultural.
So I have clients whose parents were from Latin America, from the Middle East, from Asia,
and those are collectivist cultures.
(30:41):
And the family is more important and the family's reputation, in particular, is more important
than the individual.
So they come over here and then the children are exposed to the American way of life and
values and they're trying to break away from their family and be independent, maybe
(31:04):
very outside of their ethnicity or religion, have their own, spend more time with their
friends and with their family and the family tries to, they all pull together and like shame
and try to control the native American to follow the cultural values that the parents have.
(31:28):
They say, like you should do all this for the family.
You're a bad son, you're a bad daughter, you're not putting your family first.
So it causes a lot of conflict.
But in those other cultures, they'd be well-adjusted.
So what we call cotapenit is a cultural point of view.
(31:50):
It's a Western, Occidental, Western idea versus Asia and Latin America.
That's interesting because if I look at it from the way you're saying it, and it's
clicked in the mind, cotapendency in those cultures is a strength.
cotapendency in our culture is a weakness.
Right.
Well, you could say that a lot about a lot of different things, cultural.
(32:14):
We love to ask our guests and I appreciate your responses around cotapendency and gender
foundations and also different cultural foundations.
I'm wondering for the purposes of our show, we like to ask our guests, what does feminine
mean to you?
It's interesting.
Well, I think, of course I'm a product of my culture too.
(32:41):
So I think the general definition and I'm influenced by that too, stands from biology.
So I think if feminine is being soft, nurturing, empathetic, we think of mothering, but also
creative and intuitive and the masculine is more assertive and goal oriented.
(33:06):
By the way, we need both aspects.
So productive, I guess, men, both men and women can be creative, but that's how I see it also.
So Sherry, your work, your books, so what people need to know about you, how they may get
in contact with you if they want to work with you directly.
The floor is yours.
Oh, thank you.
(33:27):
Okay.
I'm a coach internationally and my website, whatiscodependency.com has all the information on my services
page and then I have a page for resources where all my books and there's some free meditations
on there and there's also webinars and a self love meditation that people can listen to.
(33:53):
And if you forget that, usually you'll look at my name, darlinglancer.com.
And I'm on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest and YouTube.
So I have a lot of information freely available to the public and if anyone wants to get a list
(34:15):
of tips on self-love, they can email me at info@darlenelancer.com.
And my ebooks and paperbacks are available online stores like Amazon, Barnes and Noble and
paperbacks are available in stores and online and brick and mortar.
(34:37):
But on my website I have some audio files and webinars that are only on my website.
Fantastic.
It feels like we've just dipped our toe into a pool of just human condition that is very,
very difficult to actually pull apart because every individual has their own version of
(35:00):
codependency that they would have to look at themselves.
So I would definitely recommend either reading your books or getting in touch with you or
getting in touch with another counselor to help go through this because like we said,
it is a big blind spot.
If this is how you grew up, if this is how you were conditioned as a child, this is not something
(35:21):
you see when you look in the mirror.
So definitely this conversation could go on for a long time and still not cover the breath
of what this is all about.
We cannot thank you enough though for laying a foundation and giving us some direction as
to how we can recognize it and then steps we can take to go past it.
(35:43):
So we cannot thank you enough, Darleen, for taking the time to share your wisdom with us
on this topic.
Oh, thank you for asking me and helping me educate people, which is what I want to do.
It's been an absolute delight to have you.
Thank you for everything that you've brought to this and you know, excited to check out
(36:06):
your website to dive in more.
So thanks for joining us.
Do you have been listening to the Virgin, the beauty and the bitch.
Find us like us, share us.
Let us know what you thought and think about this conversation.
We'd love to hear from you as well.
And if you have anything to ask us, please send them our way.
(36:30):
Thank you so much for listening.
To become a partner in the BBB community, we invite you to find us at virginbeautybitch.com.
Click us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn and share us with people who are defiantly different
like you.
(36:51):
Until next time, thanks for listening.
[Music]
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