August 21, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode of Wake Up with Marci, Dr. Margaret reveals how to break free from perfectionism and embrace your true value. Learn how to silence the inner critic and reclaim your power — perfect for anyone feeling the pressure to be “perfect.
Check out [http://www.wakeupwithmarci.com](http://www.wakeupwithmarci.com) for more show information. Don’t forget to like, comment, share, and subscribe for weekly updates!
✨ Time to stop chasing worthiness and start living it.
Connect with Dr. Margaret:
https://instagram.com/drmargaretrutherford
https://facebook.com/drmargaretrutherford
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmargaretrutherford/
https://www.youtube.com/c/DrMargaretRutherford
Follow Wake Up with Marci:
Instagram: [@wakeupwithmarci]
Facebook: [Wake Up with Marci]
Website: [www.wakeupwithmarci.com]
Don’t miss this insightful conversation that could change lives! Like, comment, and subscribe for more inspiring content. 💡💬
Check out [http://www.wakeupwithmarci.com](http://www.wakeupwithmarci.com) for more show information. Don’t forget to like, comment, share, and subscribe for weekly updates!
✨ Time to stop chasing worthiness and start living it.
Connect with Dr. Margaret:
https://instagram.com/drmargaretrutherford
https://facebook.com/drmargaretrutherford
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmargaretrutherford/
https://www.youtube.com/c/DrMargaretRutherford
Follow Wake Up with Marci:
Instagram: [@wakeupwithmarci]
Facebook: [Wake Up with Marci]
Website: [www.wakeupwithmarci.com]
Don’t miss this insightful conversation that could change lives! Like, comment, and subscribe for more inspiring content. 💡💬
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Wake Up with Marcy, a deep dive in
the self discovery. I'm your host, Marsey Hopkins, and this
is the space where we get real about life, transformation
and finding our true selves. Hello all, and welcome back
to Wake Up with Marcy. This is a podcast where
we shine a light on stories of healing, transformation, and
(00:22):
reclaiming your power. I'm your host, Marcy Hopkins, and I
am so grateful to be here with you today. After
nearly a decade on my own healing journey from trauma
and unhealthy coping to complete transformation, I've made it my
mission to empower women to prioritize themselves, find their voice,
(00:45):
and live with intention. And on today's show, we break
down the masks of perfection, the silence of shame, and
the weight of burnout. I know we've all been there,
so we are going to have an in depth conversation.
And I'm so honored to have doctor Margaret Rutherford on
(01:05):
the show. A clinical psychologist of over thirty years, ted
X speaker with over two million views, and the brilliant
voice behind the Self Work podcast, which ranks among the
top fifty mental health podcast globally. She's also the author
of Perfectly Hidden Depression, a groundbreaking book helping people uncover
(01:28):
the perfectionism that often hides emotional pain. So thank you
so much for being on the show today, doctor Margaret.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
You're welcome, Marcia. I'm really honored to be here and excited,
so thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Very grateful, And I love this conversation. I know that
it's very important to both of us. And when I
was doing some research on you and like what topic like,
you have so many things we could talk about, and
I relate to so many of them, but this one
really stood out for me, and that was about your
(02:03):
self worth, perfectionism and not basing your worth on your
accolades and your achievements. So I'm excited to peel back
the layers on this conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
In fact, that is one of the major traits of
what I call perfectly hidden depression, and it's it's I
want to make sure your reader, your readers, your listeners
don't get confused. There's really nothing wrong with what's called
constructive perfectionism or or it's with success. I mean in
(02:36):
and of itself. It is when you are needing, you
are actually camouflaging emotional pain with success. You learned early on,
perhaps that it was a way out, that it was
an escape from whatever you were escaping from, And so
that process has just become automatic and unconscious and it's
(02:58):
just who you are now. So I'm delighted we're talking
about it as well.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, So tell me, is there like a deep rooted reason,
like you know, looking for approval from our parents, or
why is perfectionism something that is so prevalent, especially in
high achieving women.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, as we say in Arkansas, there are a lot
of ways around the barn. So it doesn't have one
root or one core cause. It could be because you
have a history of sexual abuse, alcoholism, emotional abuse. It
could be because you did grow up in a family
(03:44):
that expected you to accomplish a whole lot and their
standards were very perfectionistic. It could be because you grew
up in a family where no painful emotions were allowed
to be discussed. You needed to look happy, you needed
to keep secrets of what was actually going on in
the family. So for some people, not for all, but
for some people and for some women, then it becomes
(04:08):
something that you turn to to protect yourself, to keep
yourself safe. We were talking about that with you earlier,
to leave the cultural expectations or the familial expectations and
to somehow build something that makes more sense and that
(04:28):
you do get accolades for. You're good at sports, you're
good at school, you're a natural leader, you're you know,
whatever it happens to be, and so you start building
this facade of Okay, I'm fine as long as I'm successful.
The problem gets to be Marcy that what happens is
(04:51):
that you are only feeling successful when you have completed
a task well, and therefore you must go on to
the next task, and the next task, next task. Yeah,
it's it's perfectionism is kind of a misnomer in some ways,
that it's a problem. It's really that the nothing's ever
good enough. And in my addition to that perfectionism literature
(05:16):
just a clinician, I'm not a researcher. But it is
this this facet of it that is about a how
it protects, how it hides, how it becomes actually its
own prison, because you don't want anyone to see how
much pain is inside of you, and you also don't
(05:38):
want to feel it yourself. You're scared, and you don't
even know how you don't even know how to express it,
so you begin sort of hiding from the inside and
hiding from the outside. You're both guard and the person
who's guarding the prison and the prisoner. You're both prisoner
and guard. So I know this is kind of scary
to some people because they say, wait a minute, you
(06:00):
mean that someone I know who looks like they've got
life just going great. Their life is going great, everybody
loves them, they're successful, they've got great kids, they've got
a great family. You mean they could have ideas about
killing themselves. And the truth is yes, yes. Since I
wrote about perfectly hidden depression, I've heard from so many
(06:21):
people who lost a wife or a husband, or a
child or a friend or whatever. And so this is
truly a huge problem. Added on to that, what's happened
in our culture within the last twenty thirty years. All
the research shows that with more pressure about social media
(06:43):
and self focus that has happened than the perfectionism rates
are going up. And there's certain kinds of perfectionism that
are worse than others, and that one is highly correlated
with suicidal ideation.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
And you say, you say that, and I'm glad you
brought that up because there's no age that's safe when
it comes to this. The last few years, there have
been some some situations where a young person has taken
their lives. Yes, when you hear the story about someone
(07:21):
in college, it's taken their lives. And then you hear everyone.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Say, but they but they were doing this. They had
straight a's, they were top of the football team. You know,
everyone loved them right, right, Why would they do that?
So what is that you talk about? And you've spoken
about that, but that hidden depression, like you're not allowed
(07:47):
to feel your feelings or express your feelings and you
feel like there's no way out, right?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Is that what it is like? You just feel there's
no way out.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
The people who are a lot smarter than I am.
Years ago, there was a man that started the American
Association of Suicidality, Yeah, suicidology anyway, something like that. He said,
the reasons people kill themselves is not because of depression,
it's because of intolerable pain. It's just and he called
(08:21):
it psych ache. And you know, they don't have to
look depressed by the classic symptomatology. They just don't have
to look like that. And I love that term psych
ache because it literally conveys this idea of this ball
of pain inside of you that no amount of success
(08:42):
can take away. Let me make a distinction, because I
think it's a great distinction to make. There is a
thing called high functioning depression, where people they know they're depressed,
they know they actually have some traits of class depression
that they are either getting treatment for or they're in
(09:03):
medication for, they're in therapy for whatever, but they know
they have these symptoms. Maybe they're they don't enjoy life
as much as they used to, maybe they're carrying around
a bunch of fatigue, maybe they're thinking gets foggy, but
they still function pre during well you know now why
that is? Who knows. But they are going to probably think, well,
(09:24):
I have perfectly hidden depression or I identify with that,
and they wouldn't be wrong. But there is another group
that I'm actually more concerned about. It's the group that
you and I have been discussing, which is they put
on that facade. They put they started that camouflage so
very early in their lives that they because they weren't
(09:45):
allowed to talk about pain, because they were hurt whatever,
it happens to be where they were the star of
their family. It's just become them. And they don't even
realize that they don't have access to their pay. They
they have no way of expressing it. I figured this
out years ago because I would have people come into
(10:08):
my office who would have denied vehemently that they were
depressed if i'd asked. In fact, they looked pretty chipper.
They just said, I don't really know why I'm here.
I just I can't seem to do what I used
to do, or I'm thinking about changing jobs, or my
relationship is getting nasty or something. And it was only
(10:28):
but what I noticed about these people, Marcy, is when
I asked them about pain, they go, oh, you know,
everybody's family's got something bad in it, or you know,
I just have not a crier, so I started crying.
I'd never stop, or something like that. And they don't
know how because they don't have the words for it.
(10:49):
They've not practiced.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
And so it is something to learn to express yourself
and express yourself in a positive way, right to.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Me, expressing yourself in a positive ways being able to
talk about what's not working, what's hurting you, what's angrying
you what you're afraid of. It's not that you all
of a sudden jump into to being a victim. It's
that you can connect with It doesn't mean you stay there.
I actually had some people accuse me when I first
started writing about this. I mean not in a mean way,
(11:22):
but they were pretty critical and said, you're pathologizing resilience.
It's resilient people who can be strong in the face
of adversity. And who the what is that the going
gets tough, the tough get going, it's you know, that's stoicism,
that's resilience, that's courage. I agree. I mean, I'm not
(11:43):
pathologizing resilience. I think that's great. But do you have
the option. Do you have the choice to then turn
around and say, wow, that was really scary, or I
have compassion for the child I was because she never
got to she never got nurtured, she just was told
to go out and succeed. So, you know, it's it's
(12:05):
about balance between you know, in the work book I'm writing,
I talk a lot about and statements. You can be
happy and you can be sad, you can be purposeful
and you can feel lost. You can succeed and you
can struggle. I mean, it is an and and that's
that's so much of what Yeah, who we are?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah? I love that. So tell us, like, how did
the book come about? How did you discover this?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well? I feel sometimes like I'm what is that? Hansel
and Gretel that followed the bread Crumbs? I followed the
bread crumbs. In twenty four I had been blogging a
couple of years and I started thinking about I was
writing my weekly blog post, and you know, I had
some followers, but you know, it's okay. And I thought
(12:59):
about some of these people that you and I are describing,
and I just picked a name out of the air
and I said, the perfectly hidden depressed person? Are you one?
And the damn thing went viral And I was writing
for the Post at the time, and they featured it,
and I got hundreds of emails, hundreds of emails. It's like,
(13:20):
you're in my head? How do you know about this?
You know, I'm scared somebody would find out whatever it was.
So I got curious, frankly Marcy and I found Brene
Brown's work. She had just published Gifts of Imperfection, which
was a course of huge bestseller and she's written, like
I think, twenty other books since then. Yea, But even
(13:43):
she did not get to this what I have seen
in my practice, which is these, as I said a
few minutes ago, these perfect looking people coming in and
talking to me about how absolutely miserable they are and
how much psychice they have and or how much they
have in their lives so that they can't forget themselves,
for they carry around with shame and fear. But they
(14:05):
I really had to work with them to get them there.
So I tell my clients all the time that if
you think something should exist and it doesn't, then created.
So although I'd never written a book and I didn't
want to write a book, I started writing a book.
And then some more breadcrumbs appeared and I got an
(14:27):
agent and new Harbinger came on the scene who published
the book. And five years after I wrote that post,
how perfectly depression was published.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
That's amazing. That's amazing, Like for someone out there though
that's high functioning, or they're pretty happy, or they're saying
there's no reason I should I should be happy right,
like my life is so great. Maybe if they don't
really know what because depression can look so many different
(14:59):
ways it can. It can, and so like someone out
there that's listening, like maybe they have some sad moments
and they're not sure why, or they're feeling down, they're
angry at themselves because they feel like they shouldn't be. Like,
what does depression look like? I know it looks so
different for so many people, but just maybe some things
(15:21):
that they could say, I'm not going crazy, there is
something going on.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, the term perfectly hidden depression is it works for people.
It makes sense to people. The more I've lived with
this concept and thought about it, the ten traits that
I came up with after interviewing over sixty people who
volunteered to talk to me who were identifying with perkelely
hidden depression really the ten traits. You're somebody who always
(15:50):
is taking responsibility. You're someone who discounts or denies any
kind of pain you might have had in your earlier life.
Although you're very sensitive and have a lot of empathy
for your friends, and you know them well and you
remember everybody's birthdays, but no one really knows you that well,
(16:11):
maybe somebody does. They usually live in another city, so
you don't see them very often. You tend to feel
like you've got to be grateful for everything. And there's
a thing called toxic positivity, and Susan Davis after at
Harvard has written a lot about it, and she says,
(16:33):
you know, it's our culture has developed this. Just keep
a gratitude journal and then you that's what you need. Yes,
Like I said before, you want to be grateful, and
sometimes the very things you're grateful for have things about
them that are hard. I had a woman in my
(16:54):
office who has come in because of identifying with PhD
as I call it, and she looked at me in
an early session and she said she has a special
needs child and she said, I can't talk about how
hard that is because I literally think I'm being a
bad parent if I talk about it. I've never talked
about it with anybody, and it's that rigid. I've got
(17:19):
to be on I've got to be successful, i've got
to be everyone's I've got to have everyone else's best
interests at heart. And I simply don't ever want to
touch what's beneath all that because I don't know how.
It scares me and I'm find the way I am,
(17:39):
and I think that's what you're talking about, you know,
I'm find the way I am thank you, and yet
it's a really dangerous it's a dangerous kind of walk.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, And it sounds like kind of going back to
like how we are programmed, you know, about like the
shame and like judgment, Like if you feel the feelings
and you put them out there, that you're going to
be judged and people are not going to like you.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Your facade will come completely apart. I've had people say
to me, if everyone knew what I was like at home,
or what I was really like, or how I really
felt or what I really thought about, I'd lose my job,
I'd lose my friends, I'd lose my partner, I'd lose
And you know, sometimes that's accurate because if you've chosen
other people who need to look perfect, or who need
(18:34):
to stay very thin, or who need to look a
certain way because it's the way you're supposed to look,
then they won't understand what you're doing and they won't
necessarily support what you're doing. So it's so very important
to just kind of look down into yourself and the
two things that I think are most important, and these
(18:56):
are words that a lot of people use, but it's
having passion for the person, the child that you were
or the person you are now. And then I have
a working definition of what self acceptance is, and self
acceptance has nothing to do with success. It has to
do with well. My working definition is recognizing that neither
(19:18):
your strengths nor your weaknesses completely define you, and vice versa.
I think that is so important to recognize the gift
of self acceptance.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
So one of the things that you talk about self
acceptance and self worth lately, finding that is centered a
lot around love and connection with others and feeling right right,
feeling today right. I know that for me necessary. I
(19:48):
lost myself a long time ago in the abuse, and
like you said, sexual abuse was one of my things,
my parents being alcoholics, abandonment, all those things. So it
was all about once once I started on a steady path,
a positive path, it was all about the accolades. So
(20:10):
it was really about my achievements. I never appreciated what
had happened. I never was patty myself, like good job, Marcy,
like that's a great win, you know, like you did
that right, and and it was just always like, Okay,
I did that, what's next next? Right.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I love this metaphor that doctor Gordon Flett uses, who's
a premier research researcher in perfectionism up in Canada, and
he says, a certain kind of perfectionism which is what
you're describing, which is called socially prescribed perfectionism. But he said,
it's like being on treadmill where you have no you
have no control over the incline or the speed. And
(20:54):
then I add to that and you don't know even
where you're going or when how long you're going to
have to be on it.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I love that you don't know where you're going.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
You have no except for the next thing somebody asked
you to do with the next goal, except for yourself
or right right exactly. It's so you talk about not
being in the moment, I mean, you're not in that
moment because you can't really stand me in that moment.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
I couldn't stand myself really, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, did anybody you couldn't stand yourself?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Of course not, of course, not exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
And so that's you're keeping those secrets. And now you know,
I don't think you should blab your things, you know,
I obviously don't think you should open up your innermost
secrets to just anybody. It has to be somebody you
can trust. But at the same time, in the book,
I have again the number sixty for some reason. I
have about sixty exercises in the book to help you
(21:50):
make that journey. But I also say, from the very beginning,
start looking around in your world. If no one really
knows you, who would you trust to begin to know you?
Because where the real healing comes in. I mean, they
can read my book and put it down and forget it.
Where the real healing, as you were pointing out, shows,
(22:12):
what it begins to show itself, is when you can
look at somebody and say, man, I've had a rough day, yeah,
you know, or I feel like a failure, or I
get worried that if I gain any weight, I'll be ostracized,
or I'll lose my job. Whatever it is that you're
shame is about. Yeah, So you know, I watched my
(22:36):
mother struggle with this. Obviously I didn't call it perfectly
hid in depression. I didn't know what to call it.
But she looked perfect in every way, but she had
absolutely no real self worth mm hm. And so she
turned the prescription drugs to and became addicted to them.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, I can relate. I can relate completely to that.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yeah, And you know, saying with my mom, you know,
she was addicted to alcohol. But if you saw from
the outside, you would think she had it all together until, yeah,
until about five o'clock in the evening when everything started
changing right behind closed doors. Yeah. And God is just
(23:20):
so sad, right because so the talent. We all have
such gifts and talents and these things that are taken
away from us. But you, yourself, I mean you've gone through
your own hardships.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I mean you've gone through most of which I created
for myself, by the way.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, well, you know what, you recognize your part, and
that's that's something that I've learned. If that's what I'm
hearing you say that that you created it for yourself,
but you're recognizing today you have the ability through all
that you do, to recognized that, right, And that's one
(24:02):
of the hardest things that we can do is look
at ourselves and acknowledge that we had a role in something,
and that's the only way we can change it. But
you went through two divorces, that's right, and you had
a lot God.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
And those were chaotic relationships. They were not like, they
were not healthy. The first one was just a bad
choice on my part, and the second one, actually there
were reasons. I tried so hard when that one, I thought,
you know, I was trying to make him into the
one and he was abusive. And so I stayed with
(24:37):
him well seven years, five dating and two married. But
as I began to get healthier, I recognized that it
was emotionally killing me to stay with him. And even
though I was so ashamed of being divorced not once
but twice at the tender age of thirty three, I
(24:59):
chose to do so. But I carried a lot of
shame about it around a lot. Yeah, I'm to the
point where when we moved here to Fable, Arkansas, from Dallas,
I told my therapist in Dallas, I said, I'm just
not going to mention it. I'm just not going to
mention it. It's like, Eh, somebody asks me, have you
been married before? I'm not going to lie, but I'm
(25:20):
not going to offer the information. And that was the
truth until and so I and we were in Fable
several years. Again, I didn't lie, but I didn't offer right.
But one woman came and sat in. She's a new patient,
and she was crying and she said, I'm getting a
second divorce. But then she looked at me and said,
(25:42):
but you wouldn't know what that was like. And it
was at that moment that I had to make a choice. Yeah,
And I looked at her and I said, and I
was kind of yearning to make that choice. It was time.
And I said, you know, well, no, you're about to
be a member of a club that I've I've been
a member of for a long time. And she looked
(26:03):
at me kind of shocked, and I didn't talk any
more about it. It was her, It was her therapy
session on mine. Yeah, of course you know it. And
that has that that began the easing and the letting
go or letting it be, just letting my shame be
and just there it is. Okay, yep, that's a fact.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
So but how did you But how did you get stronger? So,
if you're an abusive relationship, I mean that destroys your
self esteem in so many ways, right and changes the
person that you are. So let's go there, like how
did you start rebuilding your self esteem and self worth?
(26:47):
I mean there's a lot of women out there that
it may not be physical, but it's mental, or maybe
they're going through a divorce. They have so much shame
about it, they've lost themselves and a divorce, like, how
can we start to to heal move forward?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Well, in my particular instance, I was in the music business.
I was a professional singer, and both my husbands were
first husbands were musicians as well. One was a professor
and then the other one was just a I want
to be and very good looking and yeah, yeah that
(27:26):
was And so the first thing I had to realize
was that the music business was not was I was
not thriving in the what I was doing in my life.
I was not thriving in that environment. And that had
nothing to do really with any kind of partner I had.
But it was pulling out that some of the things
(27:47):
that were bad for me and weaknesses of mine. So
I thought, what else can I do? And I heard
about something called music therapy, and I put all the
money I had in the world down on the first
year of that program, and then luckily got grants and stuff.
But I went into music therapy and I thought okay, oh,
and I started volunteering at the domestic women's shelter. So
(28:10):
I began trying to help people whose lives were in
more chaos than mine, at least on the surface. So
I changed my attitude to what I was doing. I
tried to do something with my life that was about
helping other people, and I really enjoyed that. That led
me into music therapy. I was there for two three years,
(28:30):
but I did a residency, or not a residency, an
internship at a psych hospital and I realized, no, I
want to be a psychologist, and I had been in
therapy for years. I got therapy. That's another thing I did,
so I didn't have a psychology degree, so I had
to go back and take psychology courses. But basically, when
(28:51):
I got out of the music business, which was I
began to feel more like I had before the chaos began,
and accept older and wiser. And then I began to
meet people who were telling me things that was very
different than what my second X husband was telling me.
He would say things like, you better stick with me,
(29:13):
because if anybody knew who you really were, they wouldn't
they wouldn't be a relationship with you. And I believed
him at the time. Of course, yep. But we got
married and my mom on her prescription drugs out for
a head when that happened. Understandably why, I understand why now.
(29:35):
But he finally said one too many things to me
that didn't jibe with this person I was becoming, and
I had the strength to say, and so we went
back into therapy worked on it. It was not like
I gave up easily, but there was something in me
that said, this is not where I need to be.
(29:55):
And I was reared in a very religious home, and
you know, my grandmother took me out of her will
when I divorced the first time, because that's not what
you do, and so there was a lot of shame
around all that for me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
And I mean again, through through the things we're talking
about right, like whether it's addiction or being unhappy or
depressed or putting down the facade you know, of there,
these are things like you were programmed to believe that
(30:31):
there's shame around divorce and like it's got to be
your fault if it didn't work out right.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
In fact, I had an AHA moment because I was
in training at the Southwest Family Institute and we studied
like families. We studied dienograms and that kind of thing,
and we did a genogram in my family and I realized,
wait a minute, there hasn't even been a separation. There
hasn't been a divorce, you know, And uh, yeah, I
got both prizes, the first and the second.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Maybe, like we've talked about before, maybe you've broken a
generational cycle just because they think their lives that they
were like so unhappy and really we're supposed to be
living in love and peace and joy. And I mean
some people may think that's so cheesy, but it's true.
(31:22):
My dog's tail keeps popping up and.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
I did that, But yeah, it was. It was hard
on my parents. I mean, they really were embarrassed that
that I was doing what I was doing, and right, mortified,
mortified small southern.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
To how you're feeling? And my how is my child feeling?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Because this happened to my hands, my grandfather like it
was her fault that divorce happened. And you know, she
found it was always about finding the perfect man, right,
the man that was fine us right, and then letting
them down. So again, like now you're trying to not
let the guy you're married to down you're trying not
(32:06):
to let your family down, Like, where are you in
the equation? Right? So it it's and we're really supposed
to live, like sometimes we choose the wrong person. And
I think again having these conversations around it, not that
I want to advocate for divorce, but it's okay. If
(32:27):
things didn't work out right, if something wrong, they may
not show who they are in the beginning.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
So well, sadly he showed me who he was.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I've been there, I get it. I get it. Oh,
I know love love, finding love, what that really means.
So tell us about you your I know you're writing
another book right now, tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
I'm actually writing a work book for the book, and
I'm I'm I have about two or three more weeks
to clean it up and then but it won't be
it won't be published until the spring of next year.
And I went about it a whole different way because
one of the things that I think was the best
part of the book are the exercises, and one of
(33:17):
the hardest things about the book were the exercises. And
so a lot of people read the book but said
that the exercises were a little overwhelming for them. The
people who did it have written me and said, oh,
I'm so glad I did the exercises. So this one
I decided to make a little more approachable, a little less.
(33:38):
It still gets to the point, but it's not as
as one critical review says on Amazon of my book,
I loved the book the last like the first part
of it, the first fourth of it. But then it
started feeling like a therapy session, and I thought, yeah,
that's actually what I wanted it to feel like. Right, So,
(33:59):
you know, some people don't want to do therapy in
a book, so this book will be easier, It'll be
it's a whole different take on it. It's deep anyway.
I won't go into the you know though, yeah, but
outs of it.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
But what you're saying, right is we've got to take
action to create the change for ourselves. Yes, and sometimes
that can be really hard. Or maybe you know, one
thing you're saying isn't connecting. But if you hear multiple
things or a different way, like you're going to be
presenting through this workbook, maybe somebody would be able to
(34:37):
digest it and do the work a little bit more.
But we got to do the work I have. I
have to keep my routine. I'm almost ten years sober,
changed my mind set about everything, reprogram my brain, and
it's a daily action. I have to do these things
to set myself up for the day and keep myself
(34:57):
grounded through the day. And one of the best things
I did was, because we're talking about the perfectionism, was
let that go and start laughing at myself.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, eat me alive.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
If I made a mistake and now I let it,
I let it go. But it took a long time
to get there and be able to do that. So
there's one thing that a lot of us talk about,
me as an advocate in living it and you as
(35:32):
a doctor, really shifting our mindset right, our mental wellness
and reprogramming our thoughts. What does that exactly mean?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Well, when I hear that phrase, I think it is
a study of your thoughts. I think you you have
to get far enough away. You know, like when you
stand by a mirror, you can't see yourself very well
if you're real close. Yeah, you have to get enough
inches away to actually begin in to see your reflection.
(36:05):
Your thoughts are like that too. I think you just say,
well that's what I think. But when you get a
little more distance away from well, why do I think that?
Is that a rational thing to think? Is that a
reasonable thing to think? Where does that come from? Is
that a rule I'm having to follow? So you know,
when you say that kind of phrase to me, it
(36:29):
means that you are reassessing. And then if you don't like,
if you don't want to have that thought, you replace it.
The CBT people say you thoughts stop, and if you
find a thought that just isn't helpful to you or
is it wrong, you stop that thinking. You literally tell
yourself to stop, which I do all the time, and
(36:53):
then you replace it with another thought that is more helpful,
and that begins to reprogram your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
It does, It does. And one of the things I
love is that you can't think of two things at
one time.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
That's right, so you're.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Thinking of something negative. I didn't use affirmations a lot,
but I've started using them a lot more. So. You know,
it's like, we have all of these modalities that can
help us, and you know they have they evolve, right,
So like the different things that help us maybe in
different stages of our healing, and and the neuroplasticity that
(37:34):
goes even deeper and behind that, right, so so that
that reprogramming, you're literally changing, right the transmitters in your
brain and.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
It's certainly changing the pathways that yeah, yeah, yeah, so
you know, and you can do that in therapy, you
can do that in your just normal life. You just
have to uh examine your life and examine your thoughts
and examine your emotions. It's it's something that some people
don't want to do. Frankly, it's too difficult. It takes time,
(38:08):
it takes energy, and at the same time it adds
a meaning and a fulfillment to your life. That when
you are noticing what's going on in your mind and
your heart and your soul that feels good or feels
congruent with what your values are, then you know you say, oh, my,
(38:30):
my actions and how I am out in the world
fit what I believe myself to be or what I
want to be inside. And then sometimes they don't. And
so you know, you can say, I want to align
more with this if I say I want to be
generous or I say I want to be kind, But
is this a kind action? Is this a kind thought?
Speaker 1 (38:51):
You know?
Speaker 2 (38:51):
If it's not, then yeah, you have to stop it.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
So if someone's out there and they're attaching their self
worth to achievements and accolades and validation from others, how
can they start? What are some things they could implement
to start creating some change for themselves or just I
(39:15):
just identifying that they're doing it.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
You know, I think that consciousness again perfectionism and being
very successful and something you know, I know if I
do it, I'm going to do it well. Again, there's
nothing innately wrong with that. It is when that is
your only go to when you can't say no, when
you can't allow yourself to just do it in sort
of a mediocre fashion. I fixed some mediocre spaghetti last night.
(39:42):
It was I didn't have a lot of time, and
I didn't really care much, and we tasted it a lot.
But you know, I think you have to become conscious
of it and realize that maybe there are aspects of
that drive and that perfectionism that are unhealthy for you,
and that you're afraid of admitting that. So and then
(40:05):
you have to commit. And that whole commitment process is
hard because I remember going to a conference years ago
on eating disorders on anorexia, and the speaker said, when
you ask anorex and anorexia to stop restricting, it's like
you're telling them to no longer have their best friend,
because their best friend that they feel in control with
(40:28):
their best friend, they just don't eat. And so you know,
you're asking the same thing as a perfectionist. I have
used the metaphor in my book that when you're working
with someone, either yourself or as a therapist, I'm working
with someone with perfectionism. We have to be very careful
that if you remember the jinga game, you know, have
you ever played Jinga? You pick a piece that you
(40:53):
don't think the whole structure will fall down if you
put it, and then put it on the top. That's
what we have to do. We don't want to take
a piece and then the whole thing crumbles or tumbles
to the ground. That is not where you want to go.
You want to say, well, maybe I can shift this
just a little bit. Maybe I can shift this just
a little bit. Maybe I can share with a friend.
(41:15):
You know, I don't really know how to talk about
myself very well, that's all I have to say. The
friend will go, well, you know I've kind of noticed that,
or they'll go really that's probably not the friend you trust.
One of the friends will say, well, I've noticed you,
don't You just seem very private And you say, well,
(41:36):
I'd like to try not to be, but I'm going
to work on that. You know, But that's really all
you have to do. Just start where you are. Start
where you are.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Then.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
The third step that I suggest in the book is
to look at the rules you're following and the beliefs
underneath those rules. Meaning, if I show my anger, If
I showed my anger when I was a child, I
was punished for it. What did I learn when I
get angry, I'm not safe? And so you're still carrying
(42:08):
around that belief I can't show my anger because I
won't be safe. That belief is and so you have
to you have to recognize the beliefs underneath the rules
you're following, and then see how you could maybe shift
those beliefs. The fourth step is to look at your
life all the way from when you were two to
(42:31):
when you were eighty two, and to look at the
things that you recognize were really positives in your life
that helped you find your way, and that were things
that really helped you become the person you wanted to be,
But what got in the way of that? What was traumatic?
What was difficult? What hurt you, what pained you? That
(42:52):
could be anywhere from getting bullied to moving around much
because you were in a military family, to or maybe
that was a positive some people that would be a negative,
people that'd be a positive. And then you go back
it's called an emotional trauma timeline, and then you can
begin to see patterns. So that is a very helpful exercise.
And then the last, frankly, is what do you decide
(43:14):
to change? You know, if I had done this interview
probably eight years ago, would I have welcomed the idea
that you talked about my two divorces. I probably wouldn't
have said anything, but I probably would have liked it.
I don't care now.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I get it. I get it.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yeah, And so you know, it's like, because that's how
far I've come, maybe even more like here or twelve
years ago, I wouldn't have liked that. Yes, it's been
okay for a while, But I'm just trying to say
that you have to change. I believe that after all
the people that I've just watched try to change that
you actually you get insight gives you. It's very pleasant.
(43:53):
It like goes, Oh, I get it. I understand the
pieces fit together, and those aha moments are good. But
where you get hope is from behavior change. I all
of a sudden, I don't feel that way anymore, or
all of a sudden it seems like all of a sudden,
or I don't want to get mad about that, or
I do want to get mad about that. I mean,
it's when you can see yourself actually changing.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yeah, I love that. I love that, And I had
to just to not get act because I would react
to life, just react, you know, instead of now responding,
and I'm still guilty. I'm human, We're all human. Oh yeah,
but it's those things really, you know, they really work
when like you just pause, count to five, like you know,
(44:39):
Mel Robbins says, or breath breath exercise breathing techniques, and
those really work, the box breathing and just do not
respond to that text or email. Oh my gosh, I
can't tell you how many times I've just jumped right in.
And then you know, we gotta unravel all that right,
(45:01):
and it's so much work. We just make something worse,
and half the time we misunderstand it.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
I am so glad that texting wasn't a part of LIT.
Oh my lord, they were hard enough as it was.
Oh gosh, no, I know.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Well, how can we connect with you? I mean, your
your ted X talk is I must watch, and your
book and just all the things you're doing are absolutely
phenomenal and you're a phenomenal woman. So where can we
find you if someone's looking for help out there?
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Well, thank you, Marcy. That's very kind of you to say.
I'll have to go downstairs and tell my husband that
he's married to phenomenal person.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
You just have to believe it.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I'm sure, Peo will I agree, you'll go. In fact,
I know what it'll say, which I probably can't say
on the air. My website's doctor Margaret Rutherford dot com.
Very create. It's the self work podcast and it's on Apple, Spotify,
everywhere you listen to podcasts. The book is in the library,
(46:09):
it's you know, and then the workbook will be coming
out in the spring. And the ted X has the
message is one that is really resonating with people. So
and it might interest your listeners. I guess it's watchers
too that I actually told you this before I was
having a panic attack. I have performance anxiety, and the
(46:32):
bottom half of my body was locked into a position
where I was finding my anxiety and where I was
trying to move the rest of my body lock It
was just fine. So it gives you a little bit
of what was going on for me. I actually was
pretty amazing. Came out.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
We can do hard things, right, We.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Can do hard things. That's right.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
When you look at people and you think, oh, they
do it with such cheese, will leave me, they're going
through it too. No, So again, thank you, thank you
so much. And for all those out there that are listening,
are watching, if today's conversation resonated with you, if you're
feeling stuck, burned out, or you feel like you've lost
(47:18):
touch with yourself or your worth, I want you to
know that you're not alone and you don't have to
navigate this life alone either. I mean, there's so many
of us, and it is about that connection and that love.
And I'd also like to remind you and invite you
to join me something that's really meaningful for me, and
that is the Shatterproof Walk. I'm going to be in
(47:40):
seeing the one in New York, which is October twenty fifth,
and then the one in La November November ninth. I believe,
and I'm also putting together a team, so I'll put
all that information below along with doctor Margaret's. And I'm
just so grateful that you are here and I will
(48:01):
see you next time. I again, I'm here to remind
you that healing is power, right, doctor Margaret, and your
rise is not up for negotiation, and the best is
yet to come. That's right, all right, thank you, and
I'll see you all next week.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Okay, thank you,
Welcome to Wake Up with Marcy, a deep dive in
the self discovery. I'm your host, Marsey Hopkins, and this
is the space where we get real about life, transformation
and finding our true selves. Hello all, and welcome back
to Wake Up with Marcy. This is a podcast where
we shine a light on stories of healing, transformation, and
(00:22):
reclaiming your power. I'm your host, Marcy Hopkins, and I
am so grateful to be here with you today. After
nearly a decade on my own healing journey from trauma
and unhealthy coping to complete transformation, I've made it my
mission to empower women to prioritize themselves, find their voice,
(00:45):
and live with intention. And on today's show, we break
down the masks of perfection, the silence of shame, and
the weight of burnout. I know we've all been there,
so we are going to have an in depth conversation.
And I'm so honored to have doctor Margaret Rutherford on
(01:05):
the show. A clinical psychologist of over thirty years, ted
X speaker with over two million views, and the brilliant
voice behind the Self Work podcast, which ranks among the
top fifty mental health podcast globally. She's also the author
of Perfectly Hidden Depression, a groundbreaking book helping people uncover
(01:28):
the perfectionism that often hides emotional pain. So thank you
so much for being on the show today, doctor Margaret.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
You're welcome, Marcia. I'm really honored to be here and excited,
so thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Very grateful, And I love this conversation. I know that
it's very important to both of us. And when I
was doing some research on you and like what topic like,
you have so many things we could talk about, and
I relate to so many of them, but this one
really stood out for me, and that was about your
(02:03):
self worth, perfectionism and not basing your worth on your
accolades and your achievements. So I'm excited to peel back
the layers on this conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
In fact, that is one of the major traits of
what I call perfectly hidden depression, and it's it's I
want to make sure your reader, your readers, your listeners
don't get confused. There's really nothing wrong with what's called
constructive perfectionism or or it's with success. I mean in
(02:36):
and of itself. It is when you are needing, you
are actually camouflaging emotional pain with success. You learned early on,
perhaps that it was a way out, that it was
an escape from whatever you were escaping from, And so
that process has just become automatic and unconscious and it's
(02:58):
just who you are now. So I'm delighted we're talking
about it as well.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, So tell me, is there like a deep rooted reason,
like you know, looking for approval from our parents, or
why is perfectionism something that is so prevalent, especially in
high achieving women.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, as we say in Arkansas, there are a lot
of ways around the barn. So it doesn't have one
root or one core cause. It could be because you
have a history of sexual abuse, alcoholism, emotional abuse. It
could be because you did grow up in a family
(03:44):
that expected you to accomplish a whole lot and their
standards were very perfectionistic. It could be because you grew
up in a family where no painful emotions were allowed
to be discussed. You needed to look happy, you needed
to keep secrets of what was actually going on in
the family. So for some people, not for all, but
for some people and for some women, then it becomes
(04:08):
something that you turn to to protect yourself, to keep
yourself safe. We were talking about that with you earlier,
to leave the cultural expectations or the familial expectations and
to somehow build something that makes more sense and that
(04:28):
you do get accolades for. You're good at sports, you're
good at school, you're a natural leader, you're you know,
whatever it happens to be, and so you start building
this facade of Okay, I'm fine as long as I'm successful.
The problem gets to be Marcy that what happens is
(04:51):
that you are only feeling successful when you have completed
a task well, and therefore you must go on to
the next task, and the next task, next task. Yeah,
it's it's perfectionism is kind of a misnomer in some ways,
that it's a problem. It's really that the nothing's ever
good enough. And in my addition to that perfectionism literature
(05:16):
just a clinician, I'm not a researcher. But it is
this this facet of it that is about a how
it protects, how it hides, how it becomes actually its
own prison, because you don't want anyone to see how
much pain is inside of you, and you also don't
(05:38):
want to feel it yourself. You're scared, and you don't
even know how you don't even know how to express it,
so you begin sort of hiding from the inside and
hiding from the outside. You're both guard and the person
who's guarding the prison and the prisoner. You're both prisoner
and guard. So I know this is kind of scary
to some people because they say, wait a minute, you
(06:00):
mean that someone I know who looks like they've got
life just going great. Their life is going great, everybody
loves them, they're successful, they've got great kids, they've got
a great family. You mean they could have ideas about
killing themselves. And the truth is yes, yes. Since I
wrote about perfectly hidden depression, I've heard from so many
(06:21):
people who lost a wife or a husband, or a
child or a friend or whatever. And so this is
truly a huge problem. Added on to that, what's happened
in our culture within the last twenty thirty years. All
the research shows that with more pressure about social media
(06:43):
and self focus that has happened than the perfectionism rates
are going up. And there's certain kinds of perfectionism that
are worse than others, and that one is highly correlated
with suicidal ideation.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
And you say, you say that, and I'm glad you
brought that up because there's no age that's safe when
it comes to this. The last few years, there have
been some some situations where a young person has taken
their lives. Yes, when you hear the story about someone
(07:21):
in college, it's taken their lives. And then you hear everyone.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Say, but they but they were doing this. They had
straight a's, they were top of the football team. You know,
everyone loved them right, right, Why would they do that?
So what is that you talk about? And you've spoken
about that, but that hidden depression, like you're not allowed
(07:47):
to feel your feelings or express your feelings and you
feel like there's no way out, right?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Is that what it is like? You just feel there's
no way out.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
The people who are a lot smarter than I am.
Years ago, there was a man that started the American
Association of Suicidality, Yeah, suicidology anyway, something like that. He said,
the reasons people kill themselves is not because of depression,
it's because of intolerable pain. It's just and he called
(08:21):
it psych ache. And you know, they don't have to
look depressed by the classic symptomatology. They just don't have
to look like that. And I love that term psych
ache because it literally conveys this idea of this ball
of pain inside of you that no amount of success
(08:42):
can take away. Let me make a distinction, because I
think it's a great distinction to make. There is a
thing called high functioning depression, where people they know they're depressed,
they know they actually have some traits of class depression
that they are either getting treatment for or they're in
(09:03):
medication for, they're in therapy for whatever, but they know
they have these symptoms. Maybe they're they don't enjoy life
as much as they used to, maybe they're carrying around
a bunch of fatigue, maybe they're thinking gets foggy, but
they still function pre during well you know now why
that is? Who knows. But they are going to probably think, well,
(09:24):
I have perfectly hidden depression or I identify with that,
and they wouldn't be wrong. But there is another group
that I'm actually more concerned about. It's the group that
you and I have been discussing, which is they put
on that facade. They put they started that camouflage so
very early in their lives that they because they weren't
(09:45):
allowed to talk about pain, because they were hurt whatever,
it happens to be where they were the star of
their family. It's just become them. And they don't even
realize that they don't have access to their pay. They
they have no way of expressing it. I figured this
out years ago because I would have people come into
(10:08):
my office who would have denied vehemently that they were
depressed if i'd asked. In fact, they looked pretty chipper.
They just said, I don't really know why I'm here.
I just I can't seem to do what I used
to do, or I'm thinking about changing jobs, or my
relationship is getting nasty or something. And it was only
(10:28):
but what I noticed about these people, Marcy, is when
I asked them about pain, they go, oh, you know,
everybody's family's got something bad in it, or you know,
I just have not a crier, so I started crying.
I'd never stop, or something like that. And they don't
know how because they don't have the words for it.
(10:49):
They've not practiced.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
And so it is something to learn to express yourself
and express yourself in a positive way, right to.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Me, expressing yourself in a positive ways being able to
talk about what's not working, what's hurting you, what's angrying
you what you're afraid of. It's not that you all
of a sudden jump into to being a victim. It's
that you can connect with It doesn't mean you stay there.
I actually had some people accuse me when I first
started writing about this. I mean not in a mean way,
(11:22):
but they were pretty critical and said, you're pathologizing resilience.
It's resilient people who can be strong in the face
of adversity. And who the what is that the going
gets tough, the tough get going, it's you know, that's stoicism,
that's resilience, that's courage. I agree. I mean, I'm not
(11:43):
pathologizing resilience. I think that's great. But do you have
the option. Do you have the choice to then turn
around and say, wow, that was really scary, or I
have compassion for the child I was because she never
got to she never got nurtured, she just was told
to go out and succeed. So, you know, it's it's
(12:05):
about balance between you know, in the work book I'm writing,
I talk a lot about and statements. You can be
happy and you can be sad, you can be purposeful
and you can feel lost. You can succeed and you
can struggle. I mean, it is an and and that's
that's so much of what Yeah, who we are?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah? I love that. So tell us, like, how did
the book come about? How did you discover this?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well? I feel sometimes like I'm what is that? Hansel
and Gretel that followed the bread Crumbs? I followed the
bread crumbs. In twenty four I had been blogging a
couple of years and I started thinking about I was
writing my weekly blog post, and you know, I had
some followers, but you know, it's okay. And I thought
(12:59):
about some of these people that you and I are describing,
and I just picked a name out of the air
and I said, the perfectly hidden depressed person? Are you one?
And the damn thing went viral And I was writing
for the Post at the time, and they featured it,
and I got hundreds of emails, hundreds of emails. It's like,
(13:20):
you're in my head? How do you know about this?
You know, I'm scared somebody would find out whatever it was.
So I got curious, frankly Marcy and I found Brene
Brown's work. She had just published Gifts of Imperfection, which
was a course of huge bestseller and she's written, like
I think, twenty other books since then. Yea, But even
(13:43):
she did not get to this what I have seen
in my practice, which is these, as I said a
few minutes ago, these perfect looking people coming in and
talking to me about how absolutely miserable they are and
how much psychice they have and or how much they
have in their lives so that they can't forget themselves,
for they carry around with shame and fear. But they
(14:05):
I really had to work with them to get them there.
So I tell my clients all the time that if
you think something should exist and it doesn't, then created.
So although I'd never written a book and I didn't
want to write a book, I started writing a book.
And then some more breadcrumbs appeared and I got an
(14:27):
agent and new Harbinger came on the scene who published
the book. And five years after I wrote that post,
how perfectly depression was published.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
That's amazing. That's amazing, Like for someone out there though
that's high functioning, or they're pretty happy, or they're saying
there's no reason I should I should be happy right,
like my life is so great. Maybe if they don't
really know what because depression can look so many different
(14:59):
ways it can. It can, and so like someone out
there that's listening, like maybe they have some sad moments
and they're not sure why, or they're feeling down, they're
angry at themselves because they feel like they shouldn't be. Like,
what does depression look like? I know it looks so
different for so many people, but just maybe some things
(15:21):
that they could say, I'm not going crazy, there is
something going on.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, the term perfectly hidden depression is it works for people.
It makes sense to people. The more I've lived with
this concept and thought about it, the ten traits that
I came up with after interviewing over sixty people who
volunteered to talk to me who were identifying with perkelely
hidden depression really the ten traits. You're somebody who always
(15:50):
is taking responsibility. You're someone who discounts or denies any
kind of pain you might have had in your earlier life.
Although you're very sensitive and have a lot of empathy
for your friends, and you know them well and you
remember everybody's birthdays, but no one really knows you that well,
(16:11):
maybe somebody does. They usually live in another city, so
you don't see them very often. You tend to feel
like you've got to be grateful for everything. And there's
a thing called toxic positivity, and Susan Davis after at
Harvard has written a lot about it, and she says,
(16:33):
you know, it's our culture has developed this. Just keep
a gratitude journal and then you that's what you need. Yes,
Like I said before, you want to be grateful, and
sometimes the very things you're grateful for have things about
them that are hard. I had a woman in my
(16:54):
office who has come in because of identifying with PhD
as I call it, and she looked at me in
an early session and she said she has a special
needs child and she said, I can't talk about how
hard that is because I literally think I'm being a
bad parent if I talk about it. I've never talked
about it with anybody, and it's that rigid. I've got
(17:19):
to be on I've got to be successful, i've got
to be everyone's I've got to have everyone else's best
interests at heart. And I simply don't ever want to
touch what's beneath all that because I don't know how.
It scares me and I'm find the way I am,
(17:39):
and I think that's what you're talking about, you know,
I'm find the way I am thank you, and yet
it's a really dangerous it's a dangerous kind of walk.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, And it sounds like kind of going back to
like how we are programmed, you know, about like the
shame and like judgment, Like if you feel the feelings
and you put them out there, that you're going to
be judged and people are not going to like you.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Your facade will come completely apart. I've had people say
to me, if everyone knew what I was like at home,
or what I was really like, or how I really
felt or what I really thought about, I'd lose my job,
I'd lose my friends, I'd lose my partner, I'd lose
And you know, sometimes that's accurate because if you've chosen
other people who need to look perfect, or who need
(18:34):
to stay very thin, or who need to look a
certain way because it's the way you're supposed to look,
then they won't understand what you're doing and they won't
necessarily support what you're doing. So it's so very important
to just kind of look down into yourself and the
two things that I think are most important, and these
(18:56):
are words that a lot of people use, but it's
having passion for the person, the child that you were
or the person you are now. And then I have
a working definition of what self acceptance is, and self
acceptance has nothing to do with success. It has to
do with well. My working definition is recognizing that neither
(19:18):
your strengths nor your weaknesses completely define you, and vice versa.
I think that is so important to recognize the gift
of self acceptance.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
So one of the things that you talk about self
acceptance and self worth lately, finding that is centered a
lot around love and connection with others and feeling right right,
feeling today right. I know that for me necessary. I
(19:48):
lost myself a long time ago in the abuse, and
like you said, sexual abuse was one of my things,
my parents being alcoholics, abandonment, all those things. So it
was all about once once I started on a steady path,
a positive path, it was all about the accolades. So
(20:10):
it was really about my achievements. I never appreciated what
had happened. I never was patty myself, like good job, Marcy,
like that's a great win, you know, like you did
that right, and and it was just always like, Okay,
I did that, what's next next? Right.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I love this metaphor that doctor Gordon Flett uses, who's
a premier research researcher in perfectionism up in Canada, and
he says, a certain kind of perfectionism which is what
you're describing, which is called socially prescribed perfectionism. But he said,
it's like being on treadmill where you have no you
have no control over the incline or the speed. And
(20:54):
then I add to that and you don't know even
where you're going or when how long you're going to
have to be on it.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I love that you don't know where you're going.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
You have no except for the next thing somebody asked
you to do with the next goal, except for yourself
or right right exactly. It's so you talk about not
being in the moment, I mean, you're not in that
moment because you can't really stand me in that moment.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
I couldn't stand myself really, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, did anybody you couldn't stand yourself?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Of course not, of course, not exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
And so that's you're keeping those secrets. And now you know,
I don't think you should blab your things, you know,
I obviously don't think you should open up your innermost
secrets to just anybody. It has to be somebody you
can trust. But at the same time, in the book,
I have again the number sixty for some reason. I
have about sixty exercises in the book to help you
(21:50):
make that journey. But I also say, from the very beginning,
start looking around in your world. If no one really
knows you, who would you trust to begin to know you?
Because where the real healing comes in. I mean, they
can read my book and put it down and forget it.
Where the real healing, as you were pointing out, shows,
(22:12):
what it begins to show itself, is when you can
look at somebody and say, man, I've had a rough day, yeah,
you know, or I feel like a failure, or I
get worried that if I gain any weight, I'll be ostracized,
or I'll lose my job. Whatever it is that you're
shame is about. Yeah, So you know, I watched my
(22:36):
mother struggle with this. Obviously I didn't call it perfectly
hid in depression. I didn't know what to call it.
But she looked perfect in every way, but she had
absolutely no real self worth mm hm. And so she
turned the prescription drugs to and became addicted to them.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, I can relate. I can relate completely to that.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yeah, And you know, saying with my mom, you know,
she was addicted to alcohol. But if you saw from
the outside, you would think she had it all together until, yeah,
until about five o'clock in the evening when everything started
changing right behind closed doors. Yeah. And God is just
(23:20):
so sad, right because so the talent. We all have
such gifts and talents and these things that are taken
away from us. But you, yourself, I mean you've gone through
your own hardships.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I mean you've gone through most of which I created
for myself, by the way.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, well, you know what, you recognize your part, and
that's that's something that I've learned. If that's what I'm
hearing you say that that you created it for yourself,
but you're recognizing today you have the ability through all
that you do, to recognized that, right, And that's one
(24:02):
of the hardest things that we can do is look
at ourselves and acknowledge that we had a role in something,
and that's the only way we can change it. But
you went through two divorces, that's right, and you had
a lot God.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
And those were chaotic relationships. They were not like, they
were not healthy. The first one was just a bad
choice on my part, and the second one, actually there
were reasons. I tried so hard when that one, I thought,
you know, I was trying to make him into the
one and he was abusive. And so I stayed with
(24:37):
him well seven years, five dating and two married. But
as I began to get healthier, I recognized that it
was emotionally killing me to stay with him. And even
though I was so ashamed of being divorced not once
but twice at the tender age of thirty three, I
(24:59):
chose to do so. But I carried a lot of
shame about it around a lot. Yeah, I'm to the
point where when we moved here to Fable, Arkansas, from Dallas,
I told my therapist in Dallas, I said, I'm just
not going to mention it. I'm just not going to
mention it. It's like, Eh, somebody asks me, have you
been married before? I'm not going to lie, but I'm
(25:20):
not going to offer the information. And that was the
truth until and so I and we were in Fable
several years. Again, I didn't lie, but I didn't offer right.
But one woman came and sat in. She's a new patient,
and she was crying and she said, I'm getting a
second divorce. But then she looked at me and said,
(25:42):
but you wouldn't know what that was like. And it
was at that moment that I had to make a choice. Yeah,
And I looked at her and I said, and I
was kind of yearning to make that choice. It was time.
And I said, you know, well, no, you're about to
be a member of a club that I've I've been
a member of for a long time. And she looked
(26:03):
at me kind of shocked, and I didn't talk any
more about it. It was her, It was her therapy
session on mine. Yeah, of course you know it. And
that has that that began the easing and the letting
go or letting it be, just letting my shame be
and just there it is. Okay, yep, that's a fact.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
So but how did you But how did you get stronger? So,
if you're an abusive relationship, I mean that destroys your
self esteem in so many ways, right and changes the
person that you are. So let's go there, like how
did you start rebuilding your self esteem and self worth?
(26:47):
I mean there's a lot of women out there that
it may not be physical, but it's mental, or maybe
they're going through a divorce. They have so much shame
about it, they've lost themselves and a divorce, like, how
can we start to to heal move forward?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Well, in my particular instance, I was in the music business.
I was a professional singer, and both my husbands were
first husbands were musicians as well. One was a professor
and then the other one was just a I want
to be and very good looking and yeah, yeah that
(27:26):
was And so the first thing I had to realize
was that the music business was not was I was
not thriving in the what I was doing in my life.
I was not thriving in that environment. And that had
nothing to do really with any kind of partner I had.
But it was pulling out that some of the things
(27:47):
that were bad for me and weaknesses of mine. So
I thought, what else can I do? And I heard
about something called music therapy, and I put all the
money I had in the world down on the first
year of that program, and then luckily got grants and stuff.
But I went into music therapy and I thought okay, oh,
and I started volunteering at the domestic women's shelter. So
(28:10):
I began trying to help people whose lives were in
more chaos than mine, at least on the surface. So
I changed my attitude to what I was doing. I
tried to do something with my life that was about
helping other people, and I really enjoyed that. That led
me into music therapy. I was there for two three years,
(28:30):
but I did a residency, or not a residency, an
internship at a psych hospital and I realized, no, I
want to be a psychologist, and I had been in
therapy for years. I got therapy. That's another thing I did,
so I didn't have a psychology degree, so I had
to go back and take psychology courses. But basically, when
(28:51):
I got out of the music business, which was I
began to feel more like I had before the chaos began,
and accept older and wiser. And then I began to
meet people who were telling me things that was very
different than what my second X husband was telling me.
He would say things like, you better stick with me,
(29:13):
because if anybody knew who you really were, they wouldn't
they wouldn't be a relationship with you. And I believed
him at the time. Of course, yep. But we got
married and my mom on her prescription drugs out for
a head when that happened. Understandably why, I understand why now.
(29:35):
But he finally said one too many things to me
that didn't jibe with this person I was becoming, and
I had the strength to say, and so we went
back into therapy worked on it. It was not like
I gave up easily, but there was something in me
that said, this is not where I need to be.
(29:55):
And I was reared in a very religious home, and
you know, my grandmother took me out of her will
when I divorced the first time, because that's not what
you do, and so there was a lot of shame
around all that for me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
And I mean again, through through the things we're talking
about right, like whether it's addiction or being unhappy or
depressed or putting down the facade you know, of there,
these are things like you were programmed to believe that
(30:31):
there's shame around divorce and like it's got to be
your fault if it didn't work out right.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
In fact, I had an AHA moment because I was
in training at the Southwest Family Institute and we studied
like families. We studied dienograms and that kind of thing,
and we did a genogram in my family and I realized,
wait a minute, there hasn't even been a separation. There
hasn't been a divorce, you know, And uh, yeah, I
got both prizes, the first and the second.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Maybe, like we've talked about before, maybe you've broken a
generational cycle just because they think their lives that they
were like so unhappy and really we're supposed to be
living in love and peace and joy. And I mean
some people may think that's so cheesy, but it's true.
(31:22):
My dog's tail keeps popping up and.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
I did that, But yeah, it was. It was hard
on my parents. I mean, they really were embarrassed that
that I was doing what I was doing, and right, mortified,
mortified small southern.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
To how you're feeling? And my how is my child feeling?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Because this happened to my hands, my grandfather like it
was her fault that divorce happened. And you know, she
found it was always about finding the perfect man, right,
the man that was fine us right, and then letting
them down. So again, like now you're trying to not
let the guy you're married to down you're trying not
(32:06):
to let your family down, Like, where are you in
the equation? Right? So it it's and we're really supposed
to live, like sometimes we choose the wrong person. And
I think again having these conversations around it, not that
I want to advocate for divorce, but it's okay. If
(32:27):
things didn't work out right, if something wrong, they may
not show who they are in the beginning.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
So well, sadly he showed me who he was.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I've been there, I get it. I get it. Oh,
I know love love, finding love, what that really means.
So tell us about you your I know you're writing
another book right now, tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
I'm actually writing a work book for the book, and
I'm I'm I have about two or three more weeks
to clean it up and then but it won't be
it won't be published until the spring of next year.
And I went about it a whole different way because
one of the things that I think was the best
part of the book are the exercises, and one of
(33:17):
the hardest things about the book were the exercises. And
so a lot of people read the book but said
that the exercises were a little overwhelming for them. The
people who did it have written me and said, oh,
I'm so glad I did the exercises. So this one
I decided to make a little more approachable, a little less.
(33:38):
It still gets to the point, but it's not as
as one critical review says on Amazon of my book,
I loved the book the last like the first part
of it, the first fourth of it. But then it
started feeling like a therapy session, and I thought, yeah,
that's actually what I wanted it to feel like. Right, So,
(33:59):
you know, some people don't want to do therapy in
a book, so this book will be easier, It'll be
it's a whole different take on it. It's deep anyway.
I won't go into the you know though, yeah, but
outs of it.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
But what you're saying, right is we've got to take
action to create the change for ourselves. Yes, and sometimes
that can be really hard. Or maybe you know, one
thing you're saying isn't connecting. But if you hear multiple
things or a different way, like you're going to be
presenting through this workbook, maybe somebody would be able to
(34:37):
digest it and do the work a little bit more.
But we got to do the work I have. I
have to keep my routine. I'm almost ten years sober,
changed my mind set about everything, reprogram my brain, and
it's a daily action. I have to do these things
to set myself up for the day and keep myself
(34:57):
grounded through the day. And one of the best things
I did was, because we're talking about the perfectionism, was
let that go and start laughing at myself.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, eat me alive.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
If I made a mistake and now I let it,
I let it go. But it took a long time
to get there and be able to do that. So
there's one thing that a lot of us talk about,
me as an advocate in living it and you as
(35:32):
a doctor, really shifting our mindset right, our mental wellness
and reprogramming our thoughts. What does that exactly mean?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Well, when I hear that phrase, I think it is
a study of your thoughts. I think you you have
to get far enough away. You know, like when you
stand by a mirror, you can't see yourself very well
if you're real close. Yeah, you have to get enough
inches away to actually begin in to see your reflection.
(36:05):
Your thoughts are like that too. I think you just say,
well that's what I think. But when you get a
little more distance away from well, why do I think that?
Is that a rational thing to think? Is that a
reasonable thing to think? Where does that come from? Is
that a rule I'm having to follow? So you know,
when you say that kind of phrase to me, it
(36:29):
means that you are reassessing. And then if you don't like,
if you don't want to have that thought, you replace it.
The CBT people say you thoughts stop, and if you
find a thought that just isn't helpful to you or
is it wrong, you stop that thinking. You literally tell
yourself to stop, which I do all the time, and
(36:53):
then you replace it with another thought that is more helpful,
and that begins to reprogram your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
It does, It does. And one of the things I
love is that you can't think of two things at
one time.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
That's right, so you're.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Thinking of something negative. I didn't use affirmations a lot,
but I've started using them a lot more. So. You know,
it's like, we have all of these modalities that can
help us, and you know they have they evolve, right,
So like the different things that help us maybe in
different stages of our healing, and and the neuroplasticity that
(37:34):
goes even deeper and behind that, right, so so that
that reprogramming, you're literally changing, right the transmitters in your
brain and.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
It's certainly changing the pathways that yeah, yeah, yeah, so
you know, and you can do that in therapy, you
can do that in your just normal life. You just
have to uh examine your life and examine your thoughts
and examine your emotions. It's it's something that some people
don't want to do. Frankly, it's too difficult. It takes time,
(38:08):
it takes energy, and at the same time it adds
a meaning and a fulfillment to your life. That when
you are noticing what's going on in your mind and
your heart and your soul that feels good or feels
congruent with what your values are, then you know you say, oh, my,
(38:30):
my actions and how I am out in the world
fit what I believe myself to be or what I
want to be inside. And then sometimes they don't. And
so you know, you can say, I want to align
more with this if I say I want to be
generous or I say I want to be kind, But
is this a kind action? Is this a kind thought?
Speaker 1 (38:51):
You know?
Speaker 2 (38:51):
If it's not, then yeah, you have to stop it.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
So if someone's out there and they're attaching their self
worth to achievements and accolades and validation from others, how
can they start? What are some things they could implement
to start creating some change for themselves or just I
(39:15):
just identifying that they're doing it.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
You know, I think that consciousness again perfectionism and being
very successful and something you know, I know if I
do it, I'm going to do it well. Again, there's
nothing innately wrong with that. It is when that is
your only go to when you can't say no, when
you can't allow yourself to just do it in sort
of a mediocre fashion. I fixed some mediocre spaghetti last night.
(39:42):
It was I didn't have a lot of time, and
I didn't really care much, and we tasted it a lot.
But you know, I think you have to become conscious
of it and realize that maybe there are aspects of
that drive and that perfectionism that are unhealthy for you,
and that you're afraid of admitting that. So and then
(40:05):
you have to commit. And that whole commitment process is
hard because I remember going to a conference years ago
on eating disorders on anorexia, and the speaker said, when
you ask anorex and anorexia to stop restricting, it's like
you're telling them to no longer have their best friend,
because their best friend that they feel in control with
(40:28):
their best friend, they just don't eat. And so you know,
you're asking the same thing as a perfectionist. I have
used the metaphor in my book that when you're working
with someone, either yourself or as a therapist, I'm working
with someone with perfectionism. We have to be very careful
that if you remember the jinga game, you know, have
you ever played Jinga? You pick a piece that you
(40:53):
don't think the whole structure will fall down if you
put it, and then put it on the top. That's
what we have to do. We don't want to take
a piece and then the whole thing crumbles or tumbles
to the ground. That is not where you want to go.
You want to say, well, maybe I can shift this
just a little bit. Maybe I can shift this just
a little bit. Maybe I can share with a friend.
(41:15):
You know, I don't really know how to talk about
myself very well, that's all I have to say. The
friend will go, well, you know I've kind of noticed that,
or they'll go really that's probably not the friend you trust.
One of the friends will say, well, I've noticed you,
don't You just seem very private And you say, well,
(41:36):
I'd like to try not to be, but I'm going
to work on that. You know, But that's really all
you have to do. Just start where you are. Start
where you are.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Then.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
The third step that I suggest in the book is
to look at the rules you're following and the beliefs
underneath those rules. Meaning, if I show my anger, If
I showed my anger when I was a child, I
was punished for it. What did I learn when I
get angry, I'm not safe? And so you're still carrying
(42:08):
around that belief I can't show my anger because I
won't be safe. That belief is and so you have
to you have to recognize the beliefs underneath the rules
you're following, and then see how you could maybe shift
those beliefs. The fourth step is to look at your
life all the way from when you were two to
(42:31):
when you were eighty two, and to look at the
things that you recognize were really positives in your life
that helped you find your way, and that were things
that really helped you become the person you wanted to be,
But what got in the way of that? What was traumatic?
What was difficult? What hurt you, what pained you? That
(42:52):
could be anywhere from getting bullied to moving around much
because you were in a military family, to or maybe
that was a positive some people that would be a negative,
people that'd be a positive. And then you go back
it's called an emotional trauma timeline, and then you can
begin to see patterns. So that is a very helpful exercise.
And then the last, frankly, is what do you decide
(43:14):
to change? You know, if I had done this interview
probably eight years ago, would I have welcomed the idea
that you talked about my two divorces. I probably wouldn't
have said anything, but I probably would have liked it.
I don't care now.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I get it. I get it.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yeah, And so you know, it's like, because that's how
far I've come, maybe even more like here or twelve
years ago, I wouldn't have liked that. Yes, it's been
okay for a while, But I'm just trying to say
that you have to change. I believe that after all
the people that I've just watched try to change that
you actually you get insight gives you. It's very pleasant.
(43:53):
It like goes, Oh, I get it. I understand the
pieces fit together, and those aha moments are good. But
where you get hope is from behavior change. I all
of a sudden, I don't feel that way anymore, or
all of a sudden it seems like all of a sudden,
or I don't want to get mad about that, or
I do want to get mad about that. I mean,
it's when you can see yourself actually changing.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yeah, I love that. I love that, And I had
to just to not get act because I would react
to life, just react, you know, instead of now responding,
and I'm still guilty. I'm human, We're all human. Oh yeah,
but it's those things really, you know, they really work
when like you just pause, count to five, like you know,
(44:39):
Mel Robbins says, or breath breath exercise breathing techniques, and
those really work, the box breathing and just do not
respond to that text or email. Oh my gosh, I
can't tell you how many times I've just jumped right in.
And then you know, we gotta unravel all that right,
(45:01):
and it's so much work. We just make something worse,
and half the time we misunderstand it.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
I am so glad that texting wasn't a part of LIT.
Oh my lord, they were hard enough as it was.
Oh gosh, no, I know.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Well, how can we connect with you? I mean, your
your ted X talk is I must watch, and your
book and just all the things you're doing are absolutely
phenomenal and you're a phenomenal woman. So where can we
find you if someone's looking for help out there?
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Well, thank you, Marcy. That's very kind of you to say.
I'll have to go downstairs and tell my husband that
he's married to phenomenal person.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
You just have to believe it.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I'm sure, Peo will I agree, you'll go. In fact,
I know what it'll say, which I probably can't say
on the air. My website's doctor Margaret Rutherford dot com.
Very create. It's the self work podcast and it's on Apple, Spotify,
everywhere you listen to podcasts. The book is in the library,
(46:09):
it's you know, and then the workbook will be coming
out in the spring. And the ted X has the
message is one that is really resonating with people. So
and it might interest your listeners. I guess it's watchers
too that I actually told you this before I was
having a panic attack. I have performance anxiety, and the
(46:32):
bottom half of my body was locked into a position
where I was finding my anxiety and where I was
trying to move the rest of my body lock It
was just fine. So it gives you a little bit
of what was going on for me. I actually was
pretty amazing. Came out.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
We can do hard things, right, We.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Can do hard things. That's right.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
When you look at people and you think, oh, they
do it with such cheese, will leave me, they're going
through it too. No, So again, thank you, thank you
so much. And for all those out there that are listening,
are watching, if today's conversation resonated with you, if you're
feeling stuck, burned out, or you feel like you've lost
(47:18):
touch with yourself or your worth, I want you to
know that you're not alone and you don't have to
navigate this life alone either. I mean, there's so many
of us, and it is about that connection and that love.
And I'd also like to remind you and invite you
to join me something that's really meaningful for me, and
that is the Shatterproof Walk. I'm going to be in
(47:40):
seeing the one in New York, which is October twenty fifth,
and then the one in La November November ninth. I believe,
and I'm also putting together a team, so I'll put
all that information below along with doctor Margaret's. And I'm
just so grateful that you are here and I will
(48:01):
see you next time. I again, I'm here to remind
you that healing is power, right, doctor Margaret, and your
rise is not up for negotiation, and the best is
yet to come. That's right, all right, thank you, and
I'll see you all next week.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Okay, thank you,
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