March 31, 2025 • 33 mins
Michael Judson Berry and Ryan Wilder welcome Farmer Nick, a former athlete turned plantrepreneur, to explore the intelligence of plants. From photosynthesis and quantum biology to how trees communicate and react to their environment, the conversation challenges our understanding of consciousness and evolution. Plus, a wild case where a plant was used as a witness in a murder investigation.
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Connect with Us: Michael Judson Berry | Ryan Wilder
Theme: “Happy Dance” by Mr. Smith is licensed under Attribution 4.0 International License. “Running Fanfare” by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under Attribution 3.0 Unported.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As a as a vegan right like it is, it would
be catastrophic to my my worldview.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Oh oh, that's true.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
There's a certainly a most wanted for for plant murder
lists out there, and I'm high on that list.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You better watch out. Hello, hey, welcome back, Welcome back
to White Noise. Your your background podcast of semi useful,
probably mostly random.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Mostly useless.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'll wait a second, not useless today. I am so
excited because we actually have like an expert guest, which
normally doesn't happen, but we're joined by farmer Nick as
your famously note, Nick, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I know you from Instagram. I'm a huge fan. I
followed you for a long time. But you're on Netflix,
you have a book. You are an extremely successful person
in the world of plants.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I mean, that's very generous of you. But yes, you
can find me all those places. The world of a plantrepreneurship,
as I call it, has been very good to me
these pasts.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It's been almost ten years since I started gardening in
my parents' backyard, but it's been quite a journey.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
And thank you for saying that. I was going to
try and say plantrepreneurship, and I knew I wasn't going
to get it right, so that's why I left that
when I was like, he's going to say this, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
So how did I was?
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I'd been in a moment asking so how did it
like happen? I mean, obviously you just said with your
parents in the backyard, but like, when did you get
that moment You're like, this is it?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
So basically my whole life, I was an athlete. I
played basketball and baseball in high school, played baseball in college,
and for so much of your life you're told like,
this is your identity, right, this is what you do.
And then you graduate college and that identity you've had
for twenty two years is kind of gone, right, You
(02:04):
kind of have to redefine yourself. And I was at
this inflection point moment and my job. I was working
corporate job in New York City at IBM and growing
up in Westchester, I grew up in White Plains. I
was going to live at home and commute to the
city like many young kids out of college did. And
(02:24):
my mom said, listen, if you're going to live here
rent free, you have to do something around the house.
Good mom advice, Right, Yeah, she was right, And I said, well,
what do you want me to do? She goes, well,
you love food, you love being outside, why not start
a garden. Now, I knew nothing about plants, and we
never owned a plant inside the house growing up. We
(02:45):
didn't do anything. So I went to home depot and
I bought a couple of pieces of wood and some
tomato plants and soil, threw them in the ground, and literally,
from the moment I tasted the fruits of my labor,
the actual fruits of my labor, I was like, oh
my god, this is the coolest thing in the whole world.
And each year of the garden grew more and more.
(03:06):
Did that for three years while I lived up north there,
and then started collecting house plants when I moved to
the city, started taking on clients, started doing terrorist landscaping,
all this other stuff classes at near botanical garden. So
it really just blossomed from there.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Oh that's awesome. I'm envious. Actually, that's pretty cool. Yeah,
is right place, right time?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
You know, Well, that's perfect because our word this week
was photosynthesis. So yeah, and again I usually it's you
never know what you're going to get. This is the
first time we have somebody who actually knows about this.
So I'm so curious as to what it's gonna be
like with us being like, let us tell you about photosynthesis.
I'm an actor, Ryan works in finance. We know next
(03:50):
to nothing about plants. I think, aside for the fact
that I've always had plants everywhere I've gone, I've lived
all over the world, and I one of the first
things I was by when I like nest is a plant.
I always find them really soothing and usually named them.
And I'm that weirdo who will like find them really
like and be like, this is Lucy. I hope I
don't kill her.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I do love outdoor landscaping.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
It's a good blend when you have kind of inside
outside moments of you know, green in your life. I
think we need more of that, and I'm all four
naming your plants. If it helps you take care of them,
that's a win.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Actually, during COVID, I got really into gardening. I moved
to a house in Jersey City that had this backyard
that honestly looked like a place where you would get
murdered like it was so no one had taken care
of it, and it's usually looked like you should go
back and there should be like a mystical creature hiding
in the bushes, being like for three wishes, I will
in ten years, I'll come for your soul, you know,
like Ryan popped up and then right, And that's how
(04:47):
Ryan and I met.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
That's how we met.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
He was living in my backyard and I'm still waiting
on those three wishes. But so one of my COVID
projects became fixing it up, and it had it was
you know, patio, but had all these very large built
in planters and say, it was so much fun actually
learning about plants and like making the backyard a beautiful space.
(05:09):
I also learned I'm very allergic to poison ivy and
it was very overgrown with poison ivy, yeah, which I
didn't know it was because I'm an idiot, and went
in in a T shirt and just started like pulling
it apart. And I regretted that decision. We've all been
there anyway, All right, well shall we shall we jump in?
Shall we try this? Which one of us would you
(05:30):
like to hear attempt to talk to you about photosynthesis
to go first.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
You know you were talking about the backyard and your
guarding journey.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
So let's hear it.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Let's go, oh gosh, okay, all right, Michael, are you ready?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Yes? Set go okay.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
So, Nick, you don't actually know me very well, but
the people who do know that this is not going
to be a leap. I know Ryan is very technically,
is very much a researcher, so I feel like he's
going to get into a deep dive oft photosynthesis. Actually
is When I think of photosynthesis, obviously, I think of plants,
and that makes me think of Judy Dench. So I
(06:06):
also really love little o British ladies, and people who
know me know this. So I have a passion for
a little Judy Dench. And Judy Dench has a passion
for trees and that's why I think of her. So
she actually made a documentary called My Passion for Trees really,
and if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.
I watched it again this morning just to refresh my memory.
(06:28):
So her two favorite things outside of Shakespeare are trees
and champagne. And now she's at a point in her
life where she really just wants to enjoy both of them.
So she made this documentary that she shot over a
year called My Passion for Trees, and it's mostly about
the trees in her yard. So she has this big
estate in Sussex and she's turned it into basically like woods,
(06:49):
and she plants a tree for every friend of hers
who dies. And so she opens it by walking around
being like, oh, look, there's Ann and there's Richard, and
that tree sort of looks like Richard. He was very
toll and thin and a bit pasty, and like it's
a big white tree that's kind of flaking and it's
really cute. It's broken up into seasons and for each
season she has a shakespeareance on it, and then she
(07:10):
has experts who come in and teach her about trees.
And watching it again, I was like, I actually learned
some stuff Judy Dench. And it's literally the most adorable
thing because she is just in awe. They have a
guy who comes in and he hooks a sound system
up to a tree and he has her listen to
what the inside of a tree sounds like. And watching
(07:30):
this just tickle her is so cute, but also you
get to hear it, and it's so cool. It's like
this dark rumble like I don't know if you've ever
heard a tree I had.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I have heard recordings of that, and you know, you
can hear like there's things happening inside. It's crazy outside
the mark there's a movement of water and nutrients, all
these different things, and the trees can actually expand and
contract depending on temperature and other conditions in the climate.
So there's a lot there.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I had no idea. See, I'm as excited as Judy
Dench was.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Doesn't grass scream when you cut it? Like they've they
actually have the recording of.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
There's there's some theories out there that there's a high
pitch frequency that's emitted. Whether we want to anthropomorphize it
enough to call it a scream, I think would be a.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Tough but a little bit of a stretch.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
There are sounds that plants emit when they are provene.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Well, and a fascinating thing that they talk about in
the documentary too, of how they communicate but also defend themselves,
Like at one point in the in the spring section,
she talks about how, like you know, spring is this
beautiful time, but also that's when they get attacked by
a lot of things. And she talks about aphids and
different things like that, and they talk about the trees
that emit a scent when they're under attack, which I
didn't know that like calls, and then birds smell it
(08:42):
and they come and eat the bugs.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Volatile organic compounds VOCs is the is the technical term.
And basically what happens is that a tree that I mean, unfortunately,
the trees that are upwind are the ones that get
attacked first, and we'll get their response, but they emit
this response that will either create something that happens in
(09:04):
the tree itself that will kind of like try to
deter the other pests or whatever is attacking it, but
it goes down wins, so that tree will say, hey,
I'm being attacked. Here's the game plan. The other trees
act accordingly so that they can prepare themselves for whatever's coming.
And that can be defense of the tree. It could
be calling in a predator with a symbotic relationship with
(09:27):
a you call it integrated pest management kind of right,
So it's the tree's own version of calling in reinforcements
to take care of what's attacking it. So there's lots
of interesting science and different scenarios there with how trees
can communicate.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, well that's what she got excited because the ones
I guess the ones that she has, they they're ones
that call on a specific kind of bird. And she's like,
that's why those birds are here, and he was like, yeah,
those are herd like that expert. He was like, yeah,
they're here to actually protect your trees, your trees calling
for help, and she's, oh, of course, she loves that.
And then the one in fall was interesting. It's like,
obviously fall is a really active time and they she
(10:03):
brings in an expert on fungi, fungi fungi and about
how there was one specific kind that connects the roots.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
So the my celium network is extensive.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
And how they can communicate using those and share nutrients.
I was like, this is fascinating.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
It's even more so fascinating when you realize that the
communication is not and transfer of nutrients, which is a
big thing in the myceilium network, is not just random either. Hey,
this tree is struggling, This tree might be smaller, this
tree lost a limb, got cut down. Whatever, let's shuttle
(10:42):
more energy and more resources to this tree that's struggling
because it can't reach the sunlight is easily Oh so
when you think about that and you're like, maybe maybe
trees understand that, like taxing millionaires is like a good thing.
I was going to imagine that we took the lessons
from the trees. What do you know?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
They work so much better as a team than we do.
That was my takeaway from it, and even her, she
was like, we have a lot to learn from trees,
and she was like there, she was like, I feel
so much more at home here with them than I
do with people. And it's like, yeah, after all of this,
it makes total sense. So I loved that. And as
far as the tree communication, so what that actually made
me think of? It's fun when we talked about like
the plant screaming and stuff. That sent me on another
(11:27):
sort of side thing back to this. There's a chapter
in a book I read that was really fun. The
book is called The Theory of Everything Else by Dan Schreiber.
He's a host of this podcast, No such Thing as
a Fish If you know that. It's this really fun
British like facty podcast. But one chapter is about this
guy Cleave Baxter. I don't know if you've heard of him.
(11:49):
He was a polygraph expert in the nineteen sixties. He
was actually one of the top polygraph experts who worked
with the CIA and for police departments in the fifty
sixty seventies. He was really into plants, and he one
day he was also really into acid, so like it
might have been on an acid tripe. He lived in
San Diego, but I watched a short film about him
as well that they made, and he was just curious.
(12:13):
One day, so he hooked his plant up to the
polygraph machine and he wanted to see if it would
have any reactions, and he said he claims that he
had a thought that he was like, oh, what if
I he hooked it up to a specific leaf, and
he was like, what if I set that leaf on fire?
What would the plant do? And just having the thought,
(12:33):
it started to freak out, like the reading, and so
he was convinced that the plant could read his mind,
that it was a telepathic plant, that it knew he
was going to set it on fire before he even
did it, and it got scared. So then he was like, oh,
plants not only have emotions, but they can read minds.
So then he went on this whole thing and that
(12:53):
became his like side hustle, was hooking his polygraph machine
up to various plants and like running different experiments he
had won that they featured in the film where he
left because he was like, my own emotions throw off
the plant. So he had a little thing of prons
set on a timer, and he left and after a
certain time where the prons were flipped over into boiling water,
(13:16):
and then the plant was right next to them, and
when he came back and they set up a camera
and it really does. When the prons fall in the water,
the plant freaks out and he's like, it's because the
plant had empathy for the prons dying in front of it.
So this became a whole thing. So the chapter in
the book, which I love, it was about a murder
case and he used a plant as a witness because
(13:38):
a guy got murdered, brutally murdered in his apartment and
the only witness was his houseplant. And this guy, Cleave Baxter,
was like, the plant will be able to pick out
the murder. That is your only key witness, and they
actually tried it. This was one police department that was
willing to give this a whirl. So they had a
list of suspects. They hooked the polygraphing up to the plate,
(14:00):
and they brought the suspects in front of the plant
one at a time, and one person the plant freaked out.
And then later it went to trial, they couldn't use
that as evidence, but that person ended up being the murderer.
And he was like, see the plant identified the killer
because it watched the guy brutally murder its owner.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Geez, wow, isn't that nuts?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
And he was like, but nobody would take him serious.
Obviously in the scientific community, no one to take him seriously. Really,
only like hippies in the sixties thought this was awesome,
and like sort of like wacky filmmakers, like the short
film that I saw, We're like, this is cool.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
I'm going to tell you, Michael was actually connectend to
what I'll be talking about a little bit.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
It was just kind of interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
So yeah, and I always thought this was kind of
a joke. Like my sister used to talk about this
as like, you know, plants have you know, feelings or whatever,
and the whole thing thought that plants feel pain and
and that sort of thing. But when I did a
deeper dive into Sweet Cleave, I was like, maybe they do.
Maybe they like see and sense a lot more than
we then we think. I don't know if how if
(14:58):
you have a reaction to that, but I hope you're wrong.
Why have you done some pretty devastating things in front
of plants that could incriminate you?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Now? I mean I just I as a as a
vegan right like it is, it would be catastrophic to
my worldview. That's true that the plants were just as
conscious and thinking as as our animal counterparts here, so
that would be tough. Also, just the number of plant
(15:28):
deaths that I have caused is pretty significant, probably more
so than most people on the planet, because when you
work in landscaping, right, you're dealing with thousands and thousands
of plants at a time, and you know there's help
the perfectly healthy plants for like, hey, the client says,
you know, doesn't want this here, we got to get
rid of it. And not every plant can be transplanted.
(15:51):
So there's a certainly a most wanted for plant murder
lists out there, and I'm high on that list.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
You better watch out.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
One day they actually I think based on him that
some filmmaker I read about made a horror movie about
plants that kill people.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Oh yeah, they're coming for me there.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I hate to say, you know, but yet you've done
so much for the plant community. They'd be really conflicting.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I'd like to think I've done more good than bad.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
But yeah, they might go on this one.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
The talking trees and the like, the trees being upset
always makes me think of that scene and Lord of
the Rings where the trees end up getting that yeah,
and that the that the I can't remember the bad
character's name tore them all down to do that uh
that tower around where cyl Yeah, I think about that
(16:43):
every time. Like you were talking about them communicating and
coordinating and looking out for each.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Other, and their main general was Grandma Willow from PoCA
Bro and she she was leading the charge a little
did you know?
Speaker 3 (16:54):
All right?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
That was my ten minutes. I see I heard the thing.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, yeah, you're good. Great.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
That thus ends my presentation about Judy Dench and Cleve
backstart Ryan, Are you ready?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
I think?
Speaker 4 (17:18):
So?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Okay, great, and your time starts now.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
So Photosynthess, I think it's pretty obvious that it makes
life on Earth possible. It's the underlying principle that has
provided energy to virtually everything that underpins what we are today.
It operates at around fifteen thousand tons of biomaster created
every second in the world, which all drives back to
the effectiveness of photosynthesis. So I alluded to this last
(17:46):
week when we got the word, but one of my
latest like kind of nerdy kicks is in quantum biology
and quantum science. That's behind how biology operates at the
effectiveness that it does. And one of the only explanations
for it is that a number of these things operate
under quantum principles, photosynthesis being one of them.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And I understand about three of those words.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So nip you still with me, I'm post so keep
going here. I'm interested.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
So with a within a leaf, Chlorophyll is the chemical
that captures sunlight and turns it or well, it doesn't
turn it into energy. It's what produces the electron that
allows ATP to be created. The short is that red
spectrum light from the sun, a red photon, if you will,
(18:37):
passes into chlorophyll, knocking an electron into a higher order
around a magnesium atom, and that electron manages to make
its way to the energy center where then thus the
ATP process starts, and it starts it ultimately results in
the food or the sugar that the plant.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Creates to grow.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Now where this starts to get into quantum science and
quantum math. And by the way, this is a principle
that came out in around two thousand and seven and
was originally laughed at. There was a paper and actually
I think MIT scientists were the first ones to be like, yeah,
this is bullshit, but there's now research that shows this
is very possible. So if you think about the biology
(19:21):
of a leaf chlorophyll and where it captures life relative
to where energy is created, set are set in two
different places, and chloroform is packed in various levels at
all over placed within the pockets.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Where it lives in the lead.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Now, photosynthesis operates at near one hundred percent efficiency, So
for the photons that are consumed the electrons that are
thus released, almost every single one, if not one hundred
percent of it ultimately gets turned to energy. Now that
means that that electron, regardless of where it sits, must
perfectly navigate through the leaf to arrive at where energy
(19:57):
is created. And this is where quantum science potentially takes place.
It means that that electron knows exactly where to travel
within the leaf to get to where it turns into energy.
It doesn't bounce around to multiple different places and trouble
around the leap. It follows the path of least resistance
(20:19):
to ultimately arrive where it is.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So okay.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
So it turns out both photons and electrons are quantum particles,
and it means that they exist both as an actual
particle that could be measured as well as a wavelength.
I didn't know this, but when you think about an electron,
so you think about an atom and electron circles around it.
So we like to apply the orbital principle when you
(20:45):
think about planets and the moon circling the Earth. But
the reality is that electrons don't actually circle an atom
in any set pattern.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
They operate in a realm of probability.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
So you may think that the electron is located in
one place, but it's actually potentially in any one place
around the atom at any given point. Again, another quantum principle.
So I was like, okay, so what's the best way
I can think of to equate this? How this kind
of operates. And have either of you been laying in
bed asleep and like, let's say a flash of light
(21:19):
goes off. Let's say lightning, for example, goes off, and
that flash of light will wake you up. You ever
had that happen?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I think?
Speaker 4 (21:25):
So you didn't actually observe that light, but you did.
The wavelength of the light traversed through everything, managed to
go through your eyelid and hit your retina, thus causing
that flash. Now you've woken up now and you go
and look out the window, and then you look out
(21:47):
the window and you see a flash of lightning this
time and you've observed the photon. So, if you think
about it, the wave of light managed to traverse through
virtually everything to become present in your eye. So the
photons from that from that flash of lightning managed to
be present in your eye. But then you turned around
and you watch the lightning. Actually you actually observe the photon.
(22:11):
So what is happening is the electron that's then created
in photosynthesis is operating as a wave where the energy
center essentially sees the wave and observes it, thus allowing
it to become present and the place where it turns
into energy, so it traverses through all paths at once,
observing the one that's most efficient.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Thus just going to that point.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
The other kind of like Michael, going back to what
you were talking about, a lot of the quantum principle
talks about the fact that there are multiple realities layered
on top of each other. And this is why, like
quantum math is so incredible, because you can be all
numbers at one time. And so in other words, if
there are a trillion different codes, all trillion codes are
(22:57):
present at that moment, meaning that the a computer can
land on what the right one is in that moment.
So if we start to talk about plants living in
multiple realities, and if plants truly are quantum quantum species
or a quantum they're using quantum science to operate and live,
they could be using some sort of quantum principle to
(23:17):
operate through reality.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
So and it's also.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Worth noting that this whole idea of quantum biology traverses
into a lot of different things, Like I forget what
the bird species is that has they believe the way
it works is the bird has two quantum entangled electrons,
and if two electrons are quantum entangled. It means that
if one is operating in one direction, you know the
(23:42):
other is operating in another.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
And thus with.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
That entanglement, they have the ability to see the magnetic
fields as if it's vision going around the earth. So
they can navigate in pure darkness because they're actually seeing
the magnetic fields of the Earth due to these quantum
in tangled electrons. And then another kind of interesting one,
and this is when I want to do more reading
in and there's a lot of very good like educational
(24:06):
papers out there, is that consciousness itself might actually be
a quantum principle, and we do have quantum materials in
our brain, which then gets into this idea that our
dreams actually a manifestation of a different reality or a
different quantum place or quantum realm. I also have stuff
(24:28):
down on observability and coherence, but I did kind of
touch on that, like so in other words, the presence
of an electron or a photon in a given place
becomes present as a result of being observed, but otherwise
operates as a wave. And actually, if I was going
to nerd a little bit more, people who believe and
(24:48):
do we live in a simulation often refer to the
often look at these kind of behaviors of waves versus
particles as evidence that this is actually just a programmatically
created reality that we live in.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I don't believe in that.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
I actually believe more so in the quantum science that
we're figuring out. But I think the kind of interesting
thing is like the whole stuff like you hear about
what like IBM is doing with like the quantum computing
is they're attempting to do it with and a state
of coherence versus decoherence, so eliminating all sort of observability
(25:23):
or all sort of factors that influence how two quantum
entangled items operate. But the reality is is that we're
starting to have evidence now that you actually don't need
super refined spaces and places for quantum quantum activities to
take place. They operate in and around us.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
This was the most dense presentation we've had so far.
Normally we're just like Trader Joe's is cool. I love
I love this topic.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
I think this is one of the most interesting things
that like I think that we're talking about right now.
I think it's one of the most interesting things in science,
Like it is and It's the first time that I
personally have been able to make sense of quantum science
and quantum math, and I've actually invested the time to
kind of start to get it. I love it, so Nick,
(26:09):
I apologize.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
I went full Nerd on that, and I.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Hope you went there. You went there. No, I'm all
for it. I mean I think I think I would now.
I was not the person to connect quantum theory to plants,
but it worked. You got there.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Oh thank you. How much time do I've left? Did
I burn it all?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Or that was exactly ten minutes?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Perfect?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I wonder too, with photo if there's something evolutionary about it?
How like if plants work at a near one hundred
percent efficiency. I mean they've been around for so long.
Do you think like early days plants worked at like
ninety percent efficiency and as time has gone on, they've
just like mastered existence in a way that like other
species haven't because we haven't caught up. I don't know
that was that was that might be? That might make
(26:57):
no sense, but I.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Know, I yeah, I think about this quite a bit, actually,
because when you when you we as humans, right, we
we start to assert our own dominance over nature. Both
in practice and in thought. And what I mean by
that is, you know, in practice we tear down trees,
we rip up far as we do this, this and that.
And in thought is we assume we make the assumption
(27:21):
that we are the most intelligent life on earth. And
that assumption, I think is a scary one because it
you know, always the expression is like, oh, if you
you know that the smartest guy in the room is
the one who's going to learn the least. And when
you look at what plants can do from a photosynthesis standpoint,
(27:43):
being one hundred percent efficient with that, who is to
say that that is not an evolutionary advantage. I wish
I could just stand outside and just start growing and
not need to not need to go to Trader Joe's,
as much as I love going to Trader Joe's. Right,
So it's it's one of those things where perhaps consciousness
(28:06):
was evolutionarily speaking filtered out because consciousness i'd argue as
a curse. Right. My dog who has some level of consciousness, right,
but she doesn't have the same stress as an existential
dread as I do on a Sunday night, you know,
like like she's just chilling, like she's happy. Right, So,
who's to say that this consciousness that we prize above
(28:28):
all else is an evolutionary advantage. In fact, it might
be a detriment to us.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yeah, it's very expensive.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
In terms of energy consumption, right, Oh, in terms of
our bodies, right, our minds are one of the biggest.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Using one third of all glucose that we produce. It
goes to our mind. I think some folks it's it's
probably less. Other folks it's it's even more.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I think we have some of them in office.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Yeah, you never know.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I mean, god, this explains why I'm hungry all the time.
I'm so neurotic.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
But yeah, I do. I do think that there is
just we should we should pause when we when we
assert who and what species? What you know, type of
creature living being is the smartest, most intelligent, because I mean,
if I'm a plan I can just be hanging out
outside all day and I'm efficient with my energy and
(29:20):
I know how to adapt to my conditions, that sounds
pretty good to me.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Not only that you build a community and you help
each other like it sounds like they really haven't figured
out in a way that like where a species who
quite often pushes when the science has pull.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I mean, to be fair, there are plants that are
a little bit more dare I say capitalistic? So yeah, right,
you know, the the black walnut is notorious for this
because it's what's called all a leto pathic, which means
that it sends out chemicals into its root system that
(29:55):
prevent other plants from growing near. It is very possess
of its land in that way. Oh, you have plants
that are invasive, like you know, English, ivy, kudzoo, all
these other things.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
That Tree of Heaven is one of them too, that hyperinvasive,
and I believe it does the same thing. It admits
chemicals to ensure that other things around it can't thrive.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Oh for sure. Right, So it's it's not all sunshine
and rainbows in plant world either. But overall, this idea
of supporting group growth and success I think is something
that we can certainly learn from.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah ah, all right, well on that beautiful note which
one of us won today, and again literally whatever that
means to you. We've also had some guests proclaimed themselves
the winners for sitting through us.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Well, I certainly won't do that, you know, I think,
I think I'm gonna have to give this one to
Ryan because he did use the word photosynthesis once in
the process. He did say what photosynthesis was at one
point before we got into the quantum discussion, we went
(31:10):
right into Judy Dench that's true very quickly. I think
I gotta give it to.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
It's so fair. I will tell you this was one
of my favorite ones. I will go watch a passion
for trees now, Yes, me too.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
It's great. You have to get a VPN though, because
it's only available to stream in Canada and the UK.
I had to learn what Express VPN was. This episode
is brought to you by Express VPN, who gave us
no money, but I'm giving them a but should it is.
It's actually really beautiful documentary.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
I do.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I do recommend it.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Ryan.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Congratulations. I'm actually really excited that you want because I
know you were very, very excited about this topic.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Oh I flipped out when I found out about it
last week and I'm like, I can't wear it to
deep dive into this.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
It was so fun having somebody who like was like, yes,
this is what you're actually talking so thank you. That
was fascinating. Absolutely, And what's our topic for next week.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Oh okay, so some hot new news on this topic
that came out in the last couple of weeks. Here,
I'm gonna throw the pyramids at you.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Wait, you're talking about how they they found the stuff
the pyramids.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
It's literally just the tip of the iceberg. There's something
else going down there. Who built it, how they build it,
what's it for? There's a lot of things to answer.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
I love that. Did they getting into the whole like
it's an energy system thing?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
No, I mean, ancient Aliens is something my dad watches
quite a bit of, So maybe get into that specifically yet.
But I think there's something going on that's a little
fishy over there.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Okay, Oh that's awesome. I'm very excited. We're gonna get
We're both gonna get. Really we're in nerd out really
hard on.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
This one super nerd topic.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
All right, Well, thank you so much. And this this
was this was white noise.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Friends.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
We'll see you next week for for Pyramids.
As a as a vegan right like it is, it would
be catastrophic to my my worldview.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Oh oh, that's true.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
There's a certainly a most wanted for for plant murder
lists out there, and I'm high on that list.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You better watch out. Hello, hey, welcome back, Welcome back
to White Noise. Your your background podcast of semi useful,
probably mostly random.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Mostly useless.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'll wait a second, not useless today. I am so
excited because we actually have like an expert guest, which
normally doesn't happen, but we're joined by farmer Nick as
your famously note, Nick, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I know you from Instagram. I'm a huge fan. I
followed you for a long time. But you're on Netflix,
you have a book. You are an extremely successful person
in the world of plants.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I mean, that's very generous of you. But yes, you
can find me all those places. The world of a plantrepreneurship,
as I call it, has been very good to me
these pasts.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It's been almost ten years since I started gardening in
my parents' backyard, but it's been quite a journey.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
And thank you for saying that. I was going to
try and say plantrepreneurship, and I knew I wasn't going
to get it right, so that's why I left that
when I was like, he's going to say this, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
So how did I was?
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I'd been in a moment asking so how did it
like happen? I mean, obviously you just said with your
parents in the backyard, but like, when did you get
that moment You're like, this is it?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
So basically my whole life, I was an athlete. I
played basketball and baseball in high school, played baseball in college,
and for so much of your life you're told like,
this is your identity, right, this is what you do.
And then you graduate college and that identity you've had
for twenty two years is kind of gone, right, You
(02:04):
kind of have to redefine yourself. And I was at
this inflection point moment and my job. I was working
corporate job in New York City at IBM and growing
up in Westchester, I grew up in White Plains. I
was going to live at home and commute to the
city like many young kids out of college did. And
(02:24):
my mom said, listen, if you're going to live here
rent free, you have to do something around the house.
Good mom advice, Right, Yeah, she was right, And I said, well,
what do you want me to do? She goes, well,
you love food, you love being outside, why not start
a garden. Now, I knew nothing about plants, and we
never owned a plant inside the house growing up. We
(02:45):
didn't do anything. So I went to home depot and
I bought a couple of pieces of wood and some
tomato plants and soil, threw them in the ground, and literally,
from the moment I tasted the fruits of my labor,
the actual fruits of my labor, I was like, oh
my god, this is the coolest thing in the whole world.
And each year of the garden grew more and more.
(03:06):
Did that for three years while I lived up north there,
and then started collecting house plants when I moved to
the city, started taking on clients, started doing terrorist landscaping,
all this other stuff classes at near botanical garden. So
it really just blossomed from there.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Oh that's awesome. I'm envious. Actually, that's pretty cool. Yeah,
is right place, right time?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
You know, Well, that's perfect because our word this week
was photosynthesis. So yeah, and again I usually it's you
never know what you're going to get. This is the
first time we have somebody who actually knows about this.
So I'm so curious as to what it's gonna be
like with us being like, let us tell you about photosynthesis.
I'm an actor, Ryan works in finance. We know next
(03:50):
to nothing about plants. I think, aside for the fact
that I've always had plants everywhere I've gone, I've lived
all over the world, and I one of the first
things I was by when I like nest is a plant.
I always find them really soothing and usually named them.
And I'm that weirdo who will like find them really
like and be like, this is Lucy. I hope I
don't kill her.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I do love outdoor landscaping.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
It's a good blend when you have kind of inside
outside moments of you know, green in your life. I
think we need more of that, and I'm all four
naming your plants. If it helps you take care of them,
that's a win.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Actually, during COVID, I got really into gardening. I moved
to a house in Jersey City that had this backyard
that honestly looked like a place where you would get
murdered like it was so no one had taken care
of it, and it's usually looked like you should go
back and there should be like a mystical creature hiding
in the bushes, being like for three wishes, I will
in ten years, I'll come for your soul, you know,
like Ryan popped up and then right, And that's how
(04:47):
Ryan and I met.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
That's how we met.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
He was living in my backyard and I'm still waiting
on those three wishes. But so one of my COVID
projects became fixing it up, and it had it was
you know, patio, but had all these very large built
in planters and say, it was so much fun actually
learning about plants and like making the backyard a beautiful space.
(05:09):
I also learned I'm very allergic to poison ivy and
it was very overgrown with poison ivy, yeah, which I
didn't know it was because I'm an idiot, and went
in in a T shirt and just started like pulling
it apart. And I regretted that decision. We've all been
there anyway, All right, well shall we shall we jump in?
Shall we try this? Which one of us would you
(05:30):
like to hear attempt to talk to you about photosynthesis
to go first.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
You know you were talking about the backyard and your
guarding journey.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
So let's hear it.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Let's go, oh gosh, okay, all right, Michael, are you ready?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Yes? Set go okay.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
So, Nick, you don't actually know me very well, but
the people who do know that this is not going
to be a leap. I know Ryan is very technically,
is very much a researcher, so I feel like he's
going to get into a deep dive oft photosynthesis. Actually
is When I think of photosynthesis, obviously, I think of plants,
and that makes me think of Judy Dench. So I
(06:06):
also really love little o British ladies, and people who
know me know this. So I have a passion for
a little Judy Dench. And Judy Dench has a passion
for trees and that's why I think of her. So
she actually made a documentary called My Passion for Trees really,
and if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.
I watched it again this morning just to refresh my memory.
(06:28):
So her two favorite things outside of Shakespeare are trees
and champagne. And now she's at a point in her
life where she really just wants to enjoy both of them.
So she made this documentary that she shot over a
year called My Passion for Trees, and it's mostly about
the trees in her yard. So she has this big
estate in Sussex and she's turned it into basically like woods,
(06:49):
and she plants a tree for every friend of hers
who dies. And so she opens it by walking around
being like, oh, look, there's Ann and there's Richard, and
that tree sort of looks like Richard. He was very
toll and thin and a bit pasty, and like it's
a big white tree that's kind of flaking and it's
really cute. It's broken up into seasons and for each
season she has a shakespeareance on it, and then she
(07:10):
has experts who come in and teach her about trees.
And watching it again, I was like, I actually learned
some stuff Judy Dench. And it's literally the most adorable
thing because she is just in awe. They have a
guy who comes in and he hooks a sound system
up to a tree and he has her listen to
what the inside of a tree sounds like. And watching
(07:30):
this just tickle her is so cute, but also you
get to hear it, and it's so cool. It's like
this dark rumble like I don't know if you've ever
heard a tree I had.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I have heard recordings of that, and you know, you
can hear like there's things happening inside. It's crazy outside
the mark there's a movement of water and nutrients, all
these different things, and the trees can actually expand and
contract depending on temperature and other conditions in the climate.
So there's a lot there.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I had no idea. See, I'm as excited as Judy
Dench was.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Doesn't grass scream when you cut it? Like they've they
actually have the recording of.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
There's there's some theories out there that there's a high
pitch frequency that's emitted. Whether we want to anthropomorphize it
enough to call it a scream, I think would be a.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Tough but a little bit of a stretch.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
There are sounds that plants emit when they are provene.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Well, and a fascinating thing that they talk about in
the documentary too, of how they communicate but also defend themselves,
Like at one point in the in the spring section,
she talks about how, like you know, spring is this
beautiful time, but also that's when they get attacked by
a lot of things. And she talks about aphids and
different things like that, and they talk about the trees
that emit a scent when they're under attack, which I
didn't know that like calls, and then birds smell it
(08:42):
and they come and eat the bugs.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Volatile organic compounds VOCs is the is the technical term.
And basically what happens is that a tree that I mean, unfortunately,
the trees that are upwind are the ones that get
attacked first, and we'll get their response, but they emit
this response that will either create something that happens in
(09:04):
the tree itself that will kind of like try to
deter the other pests or whatever is attacking it, but
it goes down wins, so that tree will say, hey,
I'm being attacked. Here's the game plan. The other trees
act accordingly so that they can prepare themselves for whatever's coming.
And that can be defense of the tree. It could
be calling in a predator with a symbotic relationship with
(09:27):
a you call it integrated pest management kind of right,
So it's the tree's own version of calling in reinforcements
to take care of what's attacking it. So there's lots
of interesting science and different scenarios there with how trees
can communicate.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, well that's what she got excited because the ones
I guess the ones that she has, they they're ones
that call on a specific kind of bird. And she's like,
that's why those birds are here, and he was like, yeah,
those are herd like that expert. He was like, yeah,
they're here to actually protect your trees, your trees calling
for help, and she's, oh, of course, she loves that.
And then the one in fall was interesting. It's like,
obviously fall is a really active time and they she
(10:03):
brings in an expert on fungi, fungi fungi and about
how there was one specific kind that connects the roots.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
So the my celium network is extensive.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
And how they can communicate using those and share nutrients.
I was like, this is fascinating.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
It's even more so fascinating when you realize that the
communication is not and transfer of nutrients, which is a
big thing in the myceilium network, is not just random either. Hey,
this tree is struggling, This tree might be smaller, this
tree lost a limb, got cut down. Whatever, let's shuttle
(10:42):
more energy and more resources to this tree that's struggling
because it can't reach the sunlight is easily Oh so
when you think about that and you're like, maybe maybe
trees understand that, like taxing millionaires is like a good thing.
I was going to imagine that we took the lessons
from the trees. What do you know?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
They work so much better as a team than we do.
That was my takeaway from it, and even her, she
was like, we have a lot to learn from trees,
and she was like there, she was like, I feel
so much more at home here with them than I
do with people. And it's like, yeah, after all of this,
it makes total sense. So I loved that. And as
far as the tree communication, so what that actually made
me think of? It's fun when we talked about like
the plant screaming and stuff. That sent me on another
(11:27):
sort of side thing back to this. There's a chapter
in a book I read that was really fun. The
book is called The Theory of Everything Else by Dan Schreiber.
He's a host of this podcast, No such Thing as
a Fish If you know that. It's this really fun
British like facty podcast. But one chapter is about this
guy Cleave Baxter. I don't know if you've heard of him.
(11:49):
He was a polygraph expert in the nineteen sixties. He
was actually one of the top polygraph experts who worked
with the CIA and for police departments in the fifty
sixty seventies. He was really into plants, and he one
day he was also really into acid, so like it
might have been on an acid tripe. He lived in
San Diego, but I watched a short film about him
as well that they made, and he was just curious.
(12:13):
One day, so he hooked his plant up to the
polygraph machine and he wanted to see if it would
have any reactions, and he said he claims that he
had a thought that he was like, oh, what if
I he hooked it up to a specific leaf, and
he was like, what if I set that leaf on fire?
What would the plant do? And just having the thought,
(12:33):
it started to freak out, like the reading, and so
he was convinced that the plant could read his mind,
that it was a telepathic plant, that it knew he
was going to set it on fire before he even
did it, and it got scared. So then he was like, oh,
plants not only have emotions, but they can read minds.
So then he went on this whole thing and that
(12:53):
became his like side hustle, was hooking his polygraph machine
up to various plants and like running different experiments he
had won that they featured in the film where he
left because he was like, my own emotions throw off
the plant. So he had a little thing of prons
set on a timer, and he left and after a
certain time where the prons were flipped over into boiling water,
(13:16):
and then the plant was right next to them, and
when he came back and they set up a camera
and it really does. When the prons fall in the water,
the plant freaks out and he's like, it's because the
plant had empathy for the prons dying in front of it.
So this became a whole thing. So the chapter in
the book, which I love, it was about a murder
case and he used a plant as a witness because
(13:38):
a guy got murdered, brutally murdered in his apartment and
the only witness was his houseplant. And this guy, Cleave Baxter,
was like, the plant will be able to pick out
the murder. That is your only key witness, and they
actually tried it. This was one police department that was
willing to give this a whirl. So they had a
list of suspects. They hooked the polygraphing up to the plate,
(14:00):
and they brought the suspects in front of the plant
one at a time, and one person the plant freaked out.
And then later it went to trial, they couldn't use
that as evidence, but that person ended up being the murderer.
And he was like, see the plant identified the killer
because it watched the guy brutally murder its owner.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Geez, wow, isn't that nuts?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
And he was like, but nobody would take him serious.
Obviously in the scientific community, no one to take him seriously. Really,
only like hippies in the sixties thought this was awesome,
and like sort of like wacky filmmakers, like the short
film that I saw, We're like, this is cool.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
I'm going to tell you, Michael was actually connectend to
what I'll be talking about a little bit.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
It was just kind of interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
So yeah, and I always thought this was kind of
a joke. Like my sister used to talk about this
as like, you know, plants have you know, feelings or whatever,
and the whole thing thought that plants feel pain and
and that sort of thing. But when I did a
deeper dive into Sweet Cleave, I was like, maybe they do.
Maybe they like see and sense a lot more than
we then we think. I don't know if how if
(14:58):
you have a reaction to that, but I hope you're wrong.
Why have you done some pretty devastating things in front
of plants that could incriminate you?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Now? I mean I just I as a as a
vegan right like it is, it would be catastrophic to
my worldview. That's true that the plants were just as
conscious and thinking as as our animal counterparts here, so
that would be tough. Also, just the number of plant
(15:28):
deaths that I have caused is pretty significant, probably more
so than most people on the planet, because when you
work in landscaping, right, you're dealing with thousands and thousands
of plants at a time, and you know there's help
the perfectly healthy plants for like, hey, the client says,
you know, doesn't want this here, we got to get
rid of it. And not every plant can be transplanted.
(15:51):
So there's a certainly a most wanted for plant murder
lists out there, and I'm high on that list.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
You better watch out.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
One day they actually I think based on him that
some filmmaker I read about made a horror movie about
plants that kill people.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Oh yeah, they're coming for me there.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I hate to say, you know, but yet you've done
so much for the plant community. They'd be really conflicting.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I'd like to think I've done more good than bad.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
But yeah, they might go on this one.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
The talking trees and the like, the trees being upset
always makes me think of that scene and Lord of
the Rings where the trees end up getting that yeah,
and that the that the I can't remember the bad
character's name tore them all down to do that uh
that tower around where cyl Yeah, I think about that
(16:43):
every time. Like you were talking about them communicating and
coordinating and looking out for each.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Other, and their main general was Grandma Willow from PoCA
Bro and she she was leading the charge a little
did you know?
Speaker 3 (16:54):
All right?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
That was my ten minutes. I see I heard the thing.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, yeah, you're good. Great.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
That thus ends my presentation about Judy Dench and Cleve
backstart Ryan, Are you ready?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
I think?
Speaker 4 (17:18):
So?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Okay, great, and your time starts now.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
So Photosynthess, I think it's pretty obvious that it makes
life on Earth possible. It's the underlying principle that has
provided energy to virtually everything that underpins what we are today.
It operates at around fifteen thousand tons of biomaster created
every second in the world, which all drives back to
the effectiveness of photosynthesis. So I alluded to this last
(17:46):
week when we got the word, but one of my
latest like kind of nerdy kicks is in quantum biology
and quantum science. That's behind how biology operates at the
effectiveness that it does. And one of the only explanations
for it is that a number of these things operate
under quantum principles, photosynthesis being one of them.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And I understand about three of those words.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So nip you still with me, I'm post so keep
going here. I'm interested.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
So with a within a leaf, Chlorophyll is the chemical
that captures sunlight and turns it or well, it doesn't
turn it into energy. It's what produces the electron that
allows ATP to be created. The short is that red
spectrum light from the sun, a red photon, if you will,
(18:37):
passes into chlorophyll, knocking an electron into a higher order
around a magnesium atom, and that electron manages to make
its way to the energy center where then thus the
ATP process starts, and it starts it ultimately results in
the food or the sugar that the plant.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Creates to grow.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Now where this starts to get into quantum science and
quantum math. And by the way, this is a principle
that came out in around two thousand and seven and
was originally laughed at. There was a paper and actually
I think MIT scientists were the first ones to be like, yeah,
this is bullshit, but there's now research that shows this
is very possible. So if you think about the biology
(19:21):
of a leaf chlorophyll and where it captures life relative
to where energy is created, set are set in two
different places, and chloroform is packed in various levels at
all over placed within the pockets.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Where it lives in the lead.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Now, photosynthesis operates at near one hundred percent efficiency, So
for the photons that are consumed the electrons that are
thus released, almost every single one, if not one hundred
percent of it ultimately gets turned to energy. Now that
means that that electron, regardless of where it sits, must
perfectly navigate through the leaf to arrive at where energy
(19:57):
is created. And this is where quantum science potentially takes place.
It means that that electron knows exactly where to travel
within the leaf to get to where it turns into energy.
It doesn't bounce around to multiple different places and trouble
around the leap. It follows the path of least resistance
(20:19):
to ultimately arrive where it is.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So okay.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
So it turns out both photons and electrons are quantum particles,
and it means that they exist both as an actual
particle that could be measured as well as a wavelength.
I didn't know this, but when you think about an electron,
so you think about an atom and electron circles around it.
So we like to apply the orbital principle when you
(20:45):
think about planets and the moon circling the Earth. But
the reality is that electrons don't actually circle an atom
in any set pattern.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
They operate in a realm of probability.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
So you may think that the electron is located in
one place, but it's actually potentially in any one place
around the atom at any given point. Again, another quantum principle.
So I was like, okay, so what's the best way
I can think of to equate this? How this kind
of operates. And have either of you been laying in
bed asleep and like, let's say a flash of light
(21:19):
goes off. Let's say lightning, for example, goes off, and
that flash of light will wake you up. You ever
had that happen?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I think?
Speaker 4 (21:25):
So you didn't actually observe that light, but you did.
The wavelength of the light traversed through everything, managed to
go through your eyelid and hit your retina, thus causing
that flash. Now you've woken up now and you go
and look out the window, and then you look out
(21:47):
the window and you see a flash of lightning this
time and you've observed the photon. So, if you think
about it, the wave of light managed to traverse through
virtually everything to become present in your eye. So the
photons from that from that flash of lightning managed to
be present in your eye. But then you turned around
and you watch the lightning. Actually you actually observe the photon.
(22:11):
So what is happening is the electron that's then created
in photosynthesis is operating as a wave where the energy
center essentially sees the wave and observes it, thus allowing
it to become present and the place where it turns
into energy, so it traverses through all paths at once,
observing the one that's most efficient.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Thus just going to that point.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
The other kind of like Michael, going back to what
you were talking about, a lot of the quantum principle
talks about the fact that there are multiple realities layered
on top of each other. And this is why, like
quantum math is so incredible, because you can be all
numbers at one time. And so in other words, if
there are a trillion different codes, all trillion codes are
(22:57):
present at that moment, meaning that the a computer can
land on what the right one is in that moment.
So if we start to talk about plants living in
multiple realities, and if plants truly are quantum quantum species
or a quantum they're using quantum science to operate and live,
they could be using some sort of quantum principle to
(23:17):
operate through reality.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
So and it's also.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Worth noting that this whole idea of quantum biology traverses
into a lot of different things, Like I forget what
the bird species is that has they believe the way
it works is the bird has two quantum entangled electrons,
and if two electrons are quantum entangled. It means that
if one is operating in one direction, you know the
(23:42):
other is operating in another.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
And thus with.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
That entanglement, they have the ability to see the magnetic
fields as if it's vision going around the earth. So
they can navigate in pure darkness because they're actually seeing
the magnetic fields of the Earth due to these quantum
in tangled electrons. And then another kind of interesting one,
and this is when I want to do more reading
in and there's a lot of very good like educational
(24:06):
papers out there, is that consciousness itself might actually be
a quantum principle, and we do have quantum materials in
our brain, which then gets into this idea that our
dreams actually a manifestation of a different reality or a
different quantum place or quantum realm. I also have stuff
(24:28):
down on observability and coherence, but I did kind of
touch on that, like so in other words, the presence
of an electron or a photon in a given place
becomes present as a result of being observed, but otherwise
operates as a wave. And actually, if I was going
to nerd a little bit more, people who believe and
(24:48):
do we live in a simulation often refer to the
often look at these kind of behaviors of waves versus
particles as evidence that this is actually just a programmatically
created reality that we live in.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I don't believe in that.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
I actually believe more so in the quantum science that
we're figuring out. But I think the kind of interesting
thing is like the whole stuff like you hear about
what like IBM is doing with like the quantum computing
is they're attempting to do it with and a state
of coherence versus decoherence, so eliminating all sort of observability
(25:23):
or all sort of factors that influence how two quantum
entangled items operate. But the reality is is that we're
starting to have evidence now that you actually don't need
super refined spaces and places for quantum quantum activities to
take place. They operate in and around us.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
This was the most dense presentation we've had so far.
Normally we're just like Trader Joe's is cool. I love
I love this topic.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
I think this is one of the most interesting things
that like I think that we're talking about right now.
I think it's one of the most interesting things in science,
Like it is and It's the first time that I
personally have been able to make sense of quantum science
and quantum math, and I've actually invested the time to
kind of start to get it. I love it, so Nick,
(26:09):
I apologize.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
I went full Nerd on that, and I.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Hope you went there. You went there. No, I'm all
for it. I mean I think I think I would now.
I was not the person to connect quantum theory to plants,
but it worked. You got there.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Oh thank you. How much time do I've left? Did
I burn it all?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Or that was exactly ten minutes?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Perfect?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I wonder too, with photo if there's something evolutionary about it?
How like if plants work at a near one hundred
percent efficiency. I mean they've been around for so long.
Do you think like early days plants worked at like
ninety percent efficiency and as time has gone on, they've
just like mastered existence in a way that like other
species haven't because we haven't caught up. I don't know
that was that was that might be? That might make
(26:57):
no sense, but I.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Know, I yeah, I think about this quite a bit, actually,
because when you when you we as humans, right, we
we start to assert our own dominance over nature. Both
in practice and in thought. And what I mean by
that is, you know, in practice we tear down trees,
we rip up far as we do this, this and that.
And in thought is we assume we make the assumption
(27:21):
that we are the most intelligent life on earth. And
that assumption, I think is a scary one because it
you know, always the expression is like, oh, if you
you know that the smartest guy in the room is
the one who's going to learn the least. And when
you look at what plants can do from a photosynthesis standpoint,
(27:43):
being one hundred percent efficient with that, who is to
say that that is not an evolutionary advantage. I wish
I could just stand outside and just start growing and
not need to not need to go to Trader Joe's,
as much as I love going to Trader Joe's. Right,
So it's it's one of those things where perhaps consciousness
(28:06):
was evolutionarily speaking filtered out because consciousness i'd argue as
a curse. Right. My dog who has some level of consciousness, right,
but she doesn't have the same stress as an existential
dread as I do on a Sunday night, you know,
like like she's just chilling, like she's happy. Right, So,
who's to say that this consciousness that we prize above
(28:28):
all else is an evolutionary advantage. In fact, it might
be a detriment to us.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yeah, it's very expensive.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
In terms of energy consumption, right, Oh, in terms of
our bodies, right, our minds are one of the biggest.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Using one third of all glucose that we produce. It
goes to our mind. I think some folks it's it's
probably less. Other folks it's it's even more.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I think we have some of them in office.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Yeah, you never know.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I mean, god, this explains why I'm hungry all the time.
I'm so neurotic.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
But yeah, I do. I do think that there is
just we should we should pause when we when we
assert who and what species? What you know, type of
creature living being is the smartest, most intelligent, because I mean,
if I'm a plan I can just be hanging out
outside all day and I'm efficient with my energy and
(29:20):
I know how to adapt to my conditions, that sounds
pretty good to me.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Not only that you build a community and you help
each other like it sounds like they really haven't figured
out in a way that like where a species who
quite often pushes when the science has pull.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I mean, to be fair, there are plants that are
a little bit more dare I say capitalistic? So yeah, right,
you know, the the black walnut is notorious for this
because it's what's called all a leto pathic, which means
that it sends out chemicals into its root system that
(29:55):
prevent other plants from growing near. It is very possess
of its land in that way. Oh, you have plants
that are invasive, like you know, English, ivy, kudzoo, all
these other things.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
That Tree of Heaven is one of them too, that hyperinvasive,
and I believe it does the same thing. It admits
chemicals to ensure that other things around it can't thrive.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Oh for sure. Right, So it's it's not all sunshine
and rainbows in plant world either. But overall, this idea
of supporting group growth and success I think is something
that we can certainly learn from.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah ah, all right, well on that beautiful note which
one of us won today, and again literally whatever that
means to you. We've also had some guests proclaimed themselves
the winners for sitting through us.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Well, I certainly won't do that, you know, I think,
I think I'm gonna have to give this one to
Ryan because he did use the word photosynthesis once in
the process. He did say what photosynthesis was at one
point before we got into the quantum discussion, we went
(31:10):
right into Judy Dench that's true very quickly. I think
I gotta give it to.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
It's so fair. I will tell you this was one
of my favorite ones. I will go watch a passion
for trees now, Yes, me too.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
It's great. You have to get a VPN though, because
it's only available to stream in Canada and the UK.
I had to learn what Express VPN was. This episode
is brought to you by Express VPN, who gave us
no money, but I'm giving them a but should it is.
It's actually really beautiful documentary.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
I do.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I do recommend it.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Ryan.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Congratulations. I'm actually really excited that you want because I
know you were very, very excited about this topic.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Oh I flipped out when I found out about it
last week and I'm like, I can't wear it to
deep dive into this.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
It was so fun having somebody who like was like, yes,
this is what you're actually talking so thank you. That
was fascinating. Absolutely, And what's our topic for next week.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Oh okay, so some hot new news on this topic
that came out in the last couple of weeks. Here,
I'm gonna throw the pyramids at you.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Wait, you're talking about how they they found the stuff
the pyramids.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
It's literally just the tip of the iceberg. There's something
else going down there. Who built it, how they build it,
what's it for? There's a lot of things to answer.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
I love that. Did they getting into the whole like
it's an energy system thing?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
No, I mean, ancient Aliens is something my dad watches
quite a bit of, So maybe get into that specifically yet.
But I think there's something going on that's a little
fishy over there.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Okay, Oh that's awesome. I'm very excited. We're gonna get
We're both gonna get. Really we're in nerd out really
hard on.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
This one super nerd topic.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
All right, Well, thank you so much. And this this
was this was white noise.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Friends.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
We'll see you next week for for Pyramids.
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